 So, hello and welcome to the EndUser Partner Summit, and this is a panel that we'll try to center on strategy and vision and how to best navigate and contribute to the cloud native ecosystem as an end user. Today, we have an incredible lineup of panelists from the CNCF and TLC leadership, including Chris Anishik, Liz Rice, and Ricardo Rocha. This panel pretty much is hosted by myself and Cheryl Tung, and we are both leading the EndUser community, which is a venture neutral group of more than 140 organizations that use cloud native technologies to build and distribute their services. Just as a reminder, we are moderating this panel in Zoom with questions mainly from the end user attendees. Additionally, we will aim to stream this on YouTube and LinkedIn, and hopefully we'll go live throughout the event. So, if there's any questions, please do put them in the Zoom chat or you can raise your hand and ask it live if it is so. Before we dive into the questions, could I ask everyone to introduce themselves and maybe we could start with Chris. Hey, everyone, my name is Chris Anishik. I have the fun job of serving as CTO of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and I've basically been here since day zero. I'm excited to have an opportunity to talk a little bit about the history and how end users have been involved since the beginning. Liz, would you like to go next? Sure, hi, my name is Liz Rice. I am Chief Open Source Officer at ICervalent and I'm here in my role as chair of the Technical Oversight Committee for the CNCF. And Ricardo, could you go next, please? Yeah, so hi, everyone. My name is Ricardo. I'm a Computing Engineer at CERN. I work in the CERN Cloud team. I'm also a TOC member where I represent the end user community. So happy to be here. Awesome. So we have a set of questions that we'd like to ask for our panelists. Again, if you have any questions for the CNCF leadership team or the TOC members, do ask them in the Zoom. And I'll let Cheryl kickstart with the questions. Cool. Hey, folks, so my name is Cheryl Hung. I think I know most of you already, but it is awesome to see you all again. So I want to start off with a question to Chris. So the end user community steers the growth of the cloud native landscape by integrating tools within their organizations and providing feedback to the projects. Can you outline how the end user community integrates with the wider system, ecosystem, including projects, SIGs, and the TOC? Sure, as I mentioned in my kind of introduction, end users have been involved with CNCF since the beginning. We deliberately, as we set up the organization, we kind of jokingly refer to there's kind of three pillars to the circus we have at CNCF. There's the traditional governing board, which is boring, handles the business decisions, budget. We have the TOC, which Liz and Ricardo are part of, that kind of handles the technical decisions. And kind of the final pillar has been the end user community. And we deliberately wanted to make sure that we were not an organization driven by vendors. And so when we set up the end user community, we ensured that they would have a role in different parts of the organization. Initially, they had a seat on the TOC. We now have two end user reps on the TOC representing end user interests. And there's kind of multiple ways end users get involved. Sometimes they could simply just be passive, looking to kind of learn from each other through presentations that we do with the end user group, whether it's learning from another company, how do they do developer experience? How do they potentially roll out service messages? Other end users tend to be a little bit more active and contributing projects. For example, you know, Capital One recently contributed cloud custodian and CNCFN for Capital One. They're an organization that essentially is going through their own transformation, right? So they started out as a bank, outsourced a lot of their engineering and services, then they decided, wait a minute, we need to be a little bit more progressive and actually own some of our engineering. And so they brought that in-house and they started to develop software on their own, open sourcing things, sharing things to kind of modernize how their bank was run. And so they just started to contributing stuff and sharing their lessons with the end user community. We have other organizations like Spotify, which have done similar things where they've open sourced backstage to CNCFN that kind of describes how internally they've done developer experience and kind of managing all the services internally and they decided to share that with the world to learn from each other. So I think there's kind of multiple avenues for end users to get involved, whether you could just simply be a passive listener and just learn from everyone, but ideally you would hopefully contribute some of your lessons learned within your organization, but we essentially don't discriminate one form or another. We allow end users from all different kind of walks in life and wherever they are, it's part of their cloud need of journey to participate. That was an amazing introduction actually. Thank you for sharing your vision of how the end users are centered within the community. Maybe I could just add a quick. Because we've seen increasing numbers of projects coming from end user organizations like Chris mentioned, Capital One, Spotify, there's several examples. And I think it's really indicative of how there are still some problems to be solved in making it really easy to build and ship and deploy cloud native applications. A lot of the pieces are in place but there are still things that can be improved. And in many of these examples, end user organizations are the people who are rubbing up against those problems and they're in the best place to innovate with those problems. So it's really great to see those problems being identified and solutions being identified and brought back to the community. It's really valuable input from building above those kind of core components like Kubernetes to getting closer to the real problems that developers are hitting day to day. Yeah, I think historically end users have not really been involved with a lot of open sourcing and so on. They were consumers and I think especially in the last decade we've seen that switch from it's not only, the innovation is not only coming from the vendors, it's coming from end users hitting problems at scale or with vendor solutions and they've been a little bit more progressive these days and sharing some of those publicly. I remember when I started my career, banks, like it was even impossible to do stuff like almost outside the firewall with bank and now you're seeing banks like Bloomberg and others, Fidelity Capital on sharing these things, working in the open. So it's just kind of nice to see this shift happening in the industry. Yeah, there was, hey everyone, Priyanka here. I mentioned this in one of my key notes at last year's KubeCon Cloud Native Cons is we're seeing this virtual cycle of innovation where end users are coming in and being welcomed into the cloud native ecosystem. They're trying out our technologies using them, battle testing them and putting as much pressure as possible and then finding areas where they could bring something new and that's where end user projects are born. Then they donate those, then they become even a deeper part of the ecosystem. Then they influence new product creation from the vendors and so the cycle kind of goes in a really positive way and I think being end user driven open source at CNCF has been super useful for everyone involved because of that virtual cycle. These were actually great answers and thank you for joining us, Priyanka. Great to have you as well here. Hi everyone. Now I'd like to focus a bit more on the role of the TOCs and how this can actually impact the growth of the end user community and make it easier for the end user community to be involved. So I have a question more for Feliz and Ricardo. Last year, the TOCs actually focused on streamlining the sandbox entry process for the projects and now the TOCs are looking to revise the incubation criteria and guidelines for again the incubation projects. Now, would you be able to talk us through some of the motivations behind those changes and how exactly it could potentially make it easier for the end users to contribute back to the community? Yeah, I could start with this. So the sandbox is relatively new. We've probably had it now for two or three years, maybe three years, but it wasn't part of the original model that we had, but we realized that there was demand for a place for experimentation and projects where people wanted to collaborate. They didn't necessarily have a home that they could do that in and we wanted to be able to offer that. So the sandbox was really always intended to be a space for experimentation. And over time, we kind of tweaked a bit what the definition of sandbox really means, like how good does a project need to be to get into the sandbox? The answer is actually the bar is really very low, but one of the things that we did, trying to streamline the process, was clarify what we're looking for in a sandbox project and clarify the extent to which it really is experimental. We're not really making any claims at all about how good a project something is if it's in the sandbox level. But we stream like that, so we've got a much more efficient process so that if you do have a project and you want it to sort of start benefiting particularly from the collaborative nature of CNCF, sandbox projects don't get any marketing push, but they do get a lot of the ability to, well, that they're neutrally owned for a start. And it's a good starting point to jump off from into incubation. Incubation has always been the really hard bar to get past. You have to be demonstrably cloud native. We do a lot of due diligence around the governance of the project, the technology in the project, whether people are genuinely using it in production cases. Incubation is still not fully de-riffed, but we do expect a project to be on a pretty solid path. And we're working on kind of streamlining that not to change the bar, the definition will essentially remain the same, but some of the ways in which we go about collecting that information for due diligence, we've realized we could rationalize that we're currently getting lots of help from what are currently called the CIGs, the special interest groups, they're gonna be renamed to a technology advisory groups just to avoid confusion. They're helping us with that due diligence. And we kind of needed to clarify more the boundaries between what we're expecting the CIGs, the tags to do and what the TOC needs in order to make the judgment. And essentially just try and streamline the efficiency of that process, make things much more sort of straightforward. So that a project, it does take, there's a significant amount of work goes into due diligence. So it is still gonna take weeks, but we wanna get it more into the kind of scope of a small number of months rather than a giant six month, eight month process. Ricardo, do you wanna add anything to that? Yeah, I think that that's a very good description. One of the things that is very good in this area is that all this idea of sandbox incubation and eventually graduation gives a really good feeling about the project to the end users as well. It's quite important to have the, as much as possible in this kind of heterogeneous environment with many different projects, doing different things, but to have some nice criteria where things move towards this process. And then as an end user, people can just rely a bit on this. There's a lot more things like the technology ratars where more feedback will be very useful also for people to make their choices. But having this bar that projects have to go through and some sort of strict criteria they have to comply to, it's quite useful for end users. I think it's a work that is really valuable for everyone. Cool, I'd love to ask Ricardo actually a little bit more about your role in particular because you are one of the end user representatives on the TOC. So we now have four out of 11 TOC members from end user organizations like Apple and Spotify and yourself from CERN. So what do you see as your role and responsibility? And maybe even you can talk about why you were interested in being on the TOC. Yeah, so I think one of the interests of being the TOC is really to help the community. Like we get, every end user gets a lot back and it's kind of our responsibility also to give it as much as possible back to the community. I think the responsibilities are similar to other members. Just the point of view is kind of different. We participate more on the end user gatherings and we hear what other people are requirements and what their feelings are in the different areas. And our role is really to give this input when the TOC has to make decisions or do some sort of due diligence to help out in this area because we are more probably closer to other end users and have a good feeling of what different projects are capable and how people feel about them. One thing that I also had a motivation to join the TOC is that because we are kind of in the research side and we've seen like we were talking about how the community has been evolving. One thing that also happens is that end users get together themselves if the like the mainstream requirements are not enough for their needs. And this happens in the research community. So we formed this CNCF research user group where we try to accommodate more specific requirements from the research community. So also one idea is to make those requirements more visible in the ecosystem because I think eventually everyone will need them but maybe the research community can be the one that pushes them forward first. Yeah, I definitely agree that it's really important to bring out the viewpoints from the end users and expose that to the TOC so that you get a different view of the problems that are coming direct from end users. And the research user group that Ricardo you mentioned is a great example of that. And actually Ricardo also chairs, he's too modest to mention this but he also chairs that group. So I'm really grateful for everything that you do Ricardo for this community. Thank you. Yeah, but I stress again that this is the good thing is that it's really a vibrant community where these things happen by themselves. The end user group again, the research user group is a very good example that just came up out of KUKON and people getting together over lunch and then forming this. I actually couldn't agree more. It's great to see. So it's like such a good representation of end users in the TOCs as well and in the community. So I'm definitely looking forward to see how far it actually gets us. I've actually, I have a question for Priyanka Meili. I mean, actually she touched upon this earlier. During the, your keynote at KUKON and CloudNativeCon Europe in 2020, you have one of the key messages has been end user driven open source. Now, would you be able to expand a bit more on that Priyanka? And what do you think is the nucleus of the end user community and how it actually can shape the overall ecosystem? Yes, absolutely. So end user driven open source, that is, has truly become our, a line that we and the foundation identify ourselves with. It's because of all that you have heard right now, right? That by having end users participating in our technical oversight committee, which is truly our, you know, a North Star body and having folks like Ricardo participate in it, you bring in this new perspective. I think referring back to what Chris was saying, this is a big change from how things used to be by encouraging end users to be part of our community and ecosystem, not just as consumers, but evaluators, feedback givers, by creators of technology. We've changed the way open source has been innovating. And not to say this wasn't happening before, but of course there's been innovation from all kinds of companies, but by a focus on end users, I think the CNCF, Cloud Native Computing Foundation has institutionalized, has set in stone that these engagements with end users will always happen. Their point of view will always be front and center. And that to my mind is end user driven open source. It's actually very similar for any folks here in the audience who've tried their hand at startups and product development. The whole idea is customer driven development or user driven development. That's kind of what we're bringing to open source with end user driven open source here at CNCF. Nice stuff. I mean, I think I definitely agree. Of course I definitely agree with this viewpoint. Liz, so let me direct the next question to you. At the last KubeCon, Cloud NativeCon, you presented some predictions from the TOC and what projects you were seeing coming out. And I believe you're doing the same again for this set of keynotes. So maybe you can give us a bit of sneak peek about what you see is coming next. Yeah, so I don't wanna steal too much thunder from my own keynote, but what I've done with that one is revisit those original predictions. And it's always a little bit hard to tell whether it kind of becomes self-fulfilling because we've said we think these are interesting areas. But we have seen projects, particularly in the sandbox, in all the five areas that we identified last time. In particular, around the whole developer experience and operator experience side of things. So our TOC colleague, Harry, is also gonna be taking part of that keynote and expanding a bit on some of the interesting changes that we're seeing in DevX and OPEX. And then we have got a few more thoughts around, I mean, I think those five areas we previously discussed, it was Kubernetes on the edge, it was Chaos Engineering, DevX, OPEX, Wasm and EBPF, and one more, help me, Chris. I believe it was Chaos Engineering. Service mesh was the other one. Chaos, I said, service mesh was the fifth one. So I think those are all still areas where we're continuing to see innovation and consolidation. A couple of other things that we've highlighted, one is that multicloud is real. I remember sort of two or three years ago, people saying, oh, cluster, it was all about multicluster. And it wasn't quite such a real thing back then. But now it would be really interesting to get a share of hands from folks on this call, how many of you are actually engaged in multicloud? I think both in terms of multiple public clouds, but also the hybrid cloud split between on-prem and public cloud, we're seeing some real solutions related to that. And I feel like that's become a real area of interest. Another one that I remember is AI. You know, we're seeing, it makes a lot of sense that people are using the cloud, renting cloud resources to do machine learning, training and building their models because they need giant amounts of compute resources to do that. So it's kind of inevitable that we're gonna see more innovation, making machine learning and AI solutions easier to manage on the cloud. And that feels like a whole sort of new, quite big expansion area for cloud native. And I'd be really interested to hear other people's opinions on whether that's also impacting on their lives. Chris is saying, EVPF obviously, yeah. Yeah. Yes. Staring at your shirt. Yeah, I think the only thing I would add to that is seeing Kubernetes used as more, as kind of like what's called a cross cloud control plane and running more workloads than are just containers, right? You know, Kubernetes may have started as purely focused on containers, but we're seeing it, you know, a stretch to running, you know, VMs, AI-based workloads, orchestrating cloud-based services. I think, you know, people are just finding it useful as a control plane that could handle, you know, different types of workloads because at the end of the day, you're orchestrating things across different machines and services. One thing I can say, I'm definitely looking forward to the key notes tomorrow. So learning a bit more of these predictions within the cloud native ecosystem. We actually have a question from our end users and I'm gonna read it out now. So the question is coming from Sergio and he is asking that now we are in an open source cold war where open source tech pioneers like Elasticsearch feel they need to change the open source licenses. How is CNCF mediating this conflict? What should we do as end users and what we need to expect in the future? So would anyone like to get a start on this question? I'll start first. So, you know, one of the premises of CNCF was always to allow permissive innovation, right? You know, we license all of our stuff under Apache 2.0 which basically allows end users, vendors, everyone to build innovative solutions on top of, you know, these wonderful projects without worrying too much, you know, about any crazy license obligations outside of attribution. So it's always been kind of how we've structured the organization and pushed ourselves towards basically permissive and permissionless basically innovation. You know, there's obviously some vendors out there that, you know, have different attitudes and approaches to this based on whether, you know, changes in business models or, you know, however they're kind of structured. I don't really see CNCF as an organization to kind of like, you know, mediate these things. You know, from our perspective we really want to listen to our end users and, you know, if our vendors or end users have issue with things we could always, you know, collaborate on potentially a solution to work around these things. But in general, like I don't really see CNCF as a mediator here. These are organizations making these decisions based on, you know, business needs or other influences. The only thing that on a personal level bothers me is when you have, you know, companies that essentially free ride on the permissive commons, you know, using a license like, sorry, Apache and then changing to a more restrictive license. That just personally pisses me off a little bit because it does cause a little consternation in the ecosystem and it does cause confusion when it comes to adoption on the product side. But in general, CNCF's role is not to be a mediator. We listen to our end users and vendors to kind of work, you know, with, you know what happens in the ecosystem. So hopefully that answers your question Sergio. I could add in a sort of very much echoing that sentiment. I think we have seen how successful this organization has been based on Apache licenses, you know, permissive licenses have allowed such great innovation and such great collaboration. And there are plenty of vendors surrounding this ecosystem who are managing to build successful businesses, you know, some of it open source, some of it proprietary. It feels like the permissive licensing at the heart of the core projects feels to me like that's been part of the reason for our success. So I hope it continues. And I hope that the trend to continuing with permissive licenses continues for a long time to come. Thank you for tackling this. Yeah, tough question. I was just gonna say maybe to add a bit to that is just reinforced here is, I think the one worry here is that the communities themselves change. Like it was being said that this has been extremely successful in not only making open source popular but also some companies that traditionally were not so keen on open source actually changed their minds and have been highly participating. So yeah, one of the worries that we kind of go back in time a bit. So let's see how it continues. Amazing. So going next again, if you have any questions, please ask them. Otherwise, I would like to move with the next question which focus a bit more again on KubeCon and some of the main themes that we'd like to or we see emerging. So are there any themes at the moment that you see kind of highlighted or any talks, keynotes that you'd recommend for our end users to attend? I can start that one off. You know, this KubeCon, Cloud NativeCon I think is a manifestation of all of that this community has done together in the last greater than one year. We have all of you, all of us, we have worked through some incredible challenges. We've had different geographical regions experiencing turmoil at different points of time. And right now our hearts go out to what's happening in India, in Brazil, even in parts of Canada like so many parts of the globe are still suffering. But what this community has done is that it's kept moving forward together. And that you see is the tagline for the show. And it's very intentional because through, I touch on this a little bit in my keynote tomorrow but through this whole time, Cloud Native has, the community has kept shipping at a great pace. Don't know what that says, but we have been productive. People have really come together and supported each other. I, you know, if I'm feeling down I literally just needed to go tweet and someone would reply and have encouraging words, have supported my words. And I've seen that happen not just for me but for others with each other. And I think we've been very resilient in this time because we are made of a global force. We're so many different kinds of people coming together and our mission is the same. We want Cloud Native to be ubiquitous. We're on this path of progress that is paved by our diversity, by our resilience, by our solidarity. So you will see that reflected everywhere in KubeCon this whole week. One of the key notes that's really exciting is by Peloton and it's on the agenda you'll see. They talk about how they've navigated through the pandemic gone fully Cloud Native and all the cool things that have happened for them. And they, by the way, are not an anomaly. There's so many companies out there who've completely ramped up engineering workforces during the pandemic as every company has become a digital company with like much faster speed. And so many folks have doubled down on Cloud Native. You'll see a lot of that in the various talks that really Cloud Native has become the building block of the human experience in the pandemic. And I think that sets us up for success in the future. As Liz said, there's so many areas where we are in the predictions there. We're going to be critical in AI being a big one. And AIML is taking a bigger and bigger role in society just because of all the information that we have now. So you'll hear stories about all of that. And I think most of all, you meet people, you'll hang out with folks. Not quite the same as in person, but it is definitely, I think, a bigger crowd. Like we just have more than 25,000 people attending the show. And you have lots of friends to make, lots of things to learn, lots to give back. And I hope you enjoy it. Amazing. And let me follow up on the last line that you said, Priyanka, about giving back. So what do you think are the best ways that end users can get involved and contribute back to the ecosystem that might open up the same to Liz, Ricardo, Chris? For sure. I mean, you end users, you are the heart and soul of what we are doing. We are building for you, for your success. So any minute you're able to spend with us is a minute well spent and one that we value. So the simplest thing, enjoy the cube cons, show up, learn and take what you learn back to your organizations. From there, I mean, I highly encourage attending the maintainer office hours, learning from them and getting plugged in on their point of view about a project that you care about. As you get more involved or if you want some guidance as you get more involved, I highly, highly recommend the end user ecosystem that Cheryl and Katie run so effectively. I think it's a great way to be in a part of a community where it's everyone just going through very similar on the same path to progress as you are. And you can have clear candid conversations about what's working for folks, what's not working for folks. And I've heard, I was actually reading this book about habit making. And in some ways, we're all changing our cultures and the way we are old habits when we go cloud native. And one of the things the habit making book said was that the best way to ensure a habit sticks is to do it in a community. And this can be that community for you, your accountability buddies. So come to the end user ecosystem, come to that community. And I think you will find that you accelerate your path to cloud native, which ultimately is to delight your end users. I think you can take it as deep or as light of a role as you want. Ricardo here is a great example of taking a deep role and having a stance, giving feedback to projects, but really it's whatever you can spare is more than welcome and you are always welcome. Amazing. Liz, Ricardo, Chris? Yeah, I could add a couple of things. So I think one thing when we talk about contributions, particularly in the world of open source, it definitely isn't all about code contribution. Code contributions are wonderful, but as end users, you're also having experience of using these projects. And I'm sure that every project out there is very keen to learn from your experiences and things like raising issues, letting maintainers know about any issues that you're having or scale problems or whatever, things good or bad, feedback on how the project is working for you in your real life situations is hugely valuable to existing project maintainers. The other thing I would mention is what's currently called CMCF6. They're gonna be renamed to Technology Advisory Groups or TAGS. Those groups, they kind of sit under the TOC that Ricardo and I are on and they are specialist areas of knowledge and experience and we lean on those groups for advice to us and also advice to the end user community. So if you have people in your organizations who are really involved in security or observability or any of the, I think, seven altogether, getting involved with those groups, sharing your experience, helping write white papers, helping us understand where things are confusing to people joined in the community, those are really, really valuable. And yeah, having folks from end user organizations getting more involved in those technology advisory groups would be really valuable. I guess to kind of end the thought on this one is, of all the kind of the companies I've worked with on the end user side, everyone has different problems. Some are a little bit more progressive than others and some are just like super early in the stage of their cloud native journey. And sometimes they just have simple questions like, hey, can you go talk to our legal team to explain open source or like, hey, how do you potentially contribute upstream without any IP concerns? We are happy to work with end users from all different kind of walks of life. So don't be afraid to kind of reach out to CNCF staff to kind of help guide you on your journey. Not everyone is as progressive as others when it comes to open source and cloud native. Okay, I can just build on that then and just add to the list mentioned the six. There are also the end user groups that people can reach out to. And it's a very good way to get introduced to other people using the same products. I think one thing Liz mentioned which is giving feedback to the project themselves is critical. This is something that always has a very good reaction from the projects themselves. And then maybe I'll just mention also this technology radars that CNCF runs often. These are also very valuable. There are reports being published in different areas regularly by Cheryl and CNCF end user. So this is extremely good. If you can provide feedback on those, it's always very welcome. And then in the, in KubeCon, I think it's a very good opportunity to reach out to people. There's very relaxed sessions. I remember in the last KubeCon, I think also Katie and Cheryl where they ended up in a session learning how to juggle and chatting with random people. And I know that after that, I at least kept contact with two or three that we followed up on things that we share. And it's a very good way to be introduced to the community as well. This is absolutely fantastic. So many ways to contribute as an end user. So I hope all the attendees will make the best use of these channels and these opportunities. I know we're kind of drawing close to the end of our panel. However, we still have one question from our end users and this is directed to Chris. And it sounds like this Chris information that there would be more guidance from the CNCF and projects moving to AGPL like Migno, Grafana Labs, et cetera. So AGPL is not on the allow list for dependencies at the moment. Is that correct to be able to expand on this? Yeah, no, I mean, we have a very, as I mentioned before, CNCF is all about kind of permissive innovation and so on. So our allow list of licenses that projects can depend on are generally all permissive licenses like MIT, other Apache things, BSD and so on. AGPL is definitely a more restrictive license. So it is not allowed. As I mentioned before, there's been a trend in the industry to kind of change, you know, let's call it free writing on the permissive comments and changing from something we're gonna patch at AGPL. And so some of our projects are affected by this. We recently posted some guidance on the CNCF Foundation GitHub repo for our projects that we will be publicizing more next week, but we're all a little bit busy at KubeCon. But if you're interested in kind of reading the full details on that link I posted in the chat from the Foundation repo kind of gives a set, three recommendations of projects, what they could do. It could be as simple as using the old release or getting together with partners and peers in industry and maybe forking that, you know, that old release and maintaining it in open. So there's a different set of recommendations for folks and we plan to talk about it more after KubeCon next week. Awesome, thank you for responding to this one. So pretty much we were close to the end of our panel. Are there any other remarks and other suggestions, recommendations for our end users and how they can make the best of KubeCon? Anyone from the panel would like to take this one? I just wanted to add one piece, which is that in that spirit of being a diverse ecosystem of having diversity by our resilience, we innovated on the KubeCon Cloud NativeCon schedule as well and two things that are new this time are a business value subtract, which has a few talks around literally Cloud Native 101 definitions, how to sell open source internally, things like that. So if you have colleagues in your company who you really think would benefit from this and would make your job easier, feel free to send them that way. That way they're coming into this part of the ecosystem with us and will support you in your journey. The second piece that we've added is for learners and students around the world. We've often heard that even our 101 content can be advanced for someone who is a learner or a student and may not have real time experience with large production systems. So if you know anyone like that or on your teams or in your life, please feel free to send them this way too, because we want to start supporting that path to progress that people make as early as possible and figure that a student subtract would be valuable. And if people want to find any of these sessions, just go on the schedule and click on student track or business value and you will have access to talks that we recommend for those experience levels. So just thought I'd mention that since that's something important to me. Oh, and hallway track. Everybody should hang out there all the time. There's a lot of fun stuff happening and that is where you will hear when I'm doing happy hours for the community tomorrow and the day after. So join in, we'll just be having fun talking, playing music, games, just chill time for all. And of course, you're welcome to bring a beverage. Thank you for this insight, Priyanka. Anything from Liz, Ricardo, Chris, any last remarks? I think I would just say we really, really do value input from the end user community. Things that are impacting you, some of the things that have come up in the discussions earlier, things like licenses. We'd love to hear what the real impact of this is for end users who are dealing with stuff like that on the cold face as it were. So your input is hugely valuable. Thank you. Oh, and get ready. Oh, sorry, Chris. You were like, go ahead, then I'll... No, I was gonna say, give us feedback how we can improve KubeCon in this event. We primarily put on KubeCon for our end user community. Even though may not be obvious, we do put a lot of planning to make sure end users are happy with it. So please offer us feedback and hopefully we'll be able to all see each other physically and in Los Angeles in, I guess that's four months or so from actually a little bit more than that in October. So other than that, yeah, give us feedback. We'd always wanna improve and iterate on making KubeCon a better experience for all, but hopefully this is one of my last virtual events. That is exactly what I was gonna say. Fingers crossed, last virtual only event planned for LA in October. Hopefully, many regions around the world will be able to travel. And I was just thinking as we were talking here, right? As we would say things, it's like, I have no idea if that landed with this audience. Do people think this was valuable or not? It's like, you don't know what the reaction is. And I can't wait to be in a room with you all there. We'll be talking rather than us broadcasting to you. So cannot wait, mark your calendars October 11 to 15. See you then. Amazing. Ricardo, would you like to add anything? I would just say the same. I hope we can meet each other soon in person, these KubeCons are very valuable, but in person ones are even more. So I hope the next one will be when we get back to being able to talk to each other in person. Looking forward. Oh, by the way, right after the event, you will get an email about where KubeCon, CloudNativeCon EU22 is happening. So keep an eye out for that. Definitely looking for in-person events and definitely looking forward for KubeCon Europe next year already. This one is not finished, but I'm already looking forward for the next one. Thank you very much for all of our panelists and all of our attendees at the Enduser Partner Summit and all of your questions. It was great to see what the actual end users are caring to talk more about and explore. We are excited to see how the end users are gonna be shaping the future of CloudNative ecosystem and more than anything, we're looking how the end user community is gonna contribute back and we're looking forward to those contributions as well. Well, I have one more thing to add as well. So if you wanna learn a little bit more about your membership with CNCF and what you can do, what you can get out of it, then please come and join the Enduser Lounge, the benefits edition, which is gonna run tomorrow at 330 CEST. So we'll talk a little bit about the Linux Foundation training benefits you get, the branding opportunities that help, how that helps you with your recruiting and then how to collaborate with other members of the end user community as well. So thank you so much and have a fantastic KubeCon. Thank you.