 Good morning, everyone. We this is the November 3rd Meeting of the elementary school building committee. I'm the chair Kathy Shane. I see we have a few People who have not been with us before Welcome Robert. My first Task is to make sure the members of the committee seeing that we have a quorum can hear and we can hear them So I am just going to call out your names based on where I see them on the screen and just indicate that All as well Roger Wallace here and I was well Good morning, good morning Jennifer here Doug I'm here all present Angelica I can see you and gelica, but we can't hear you. He's frozen. Okay. I'll keep going keep going Simone here loan Here Tammy here Rupert here and I don't Rupert is here and I can hear Angelica Okay Okay, we're missing a few people Margaret will keep notes and we're going to start the meeting Tim is back with us We're starting the meeting with Margaret sharing the agenda and Paul. Do you want to introduce? Robert parent, you know just sure He is here with us and you can describe what his role will be sure. Yeah, so I'll do that So Bob parent is with us. Thank you Bob for being here Bob is employed by the town is a capital projects manager. He's a professional engineer has an oodles of background on buildings working in the public sector and in the private sector So if you want more information, we can talk about it But he's been spectacular and supporting sort of projects that we need to bring to conclusion on the town side So I've asked him to participate in this We don't have a membership slot for him, but he's going to bring his expertise to the table. Thank you Welcome Bob. Thank you. I also want to introduce Connor Palazzo who is masquerading as Cassania this morning. That is very weird You can change that We'll show you how to change that Connor. So Connor is working to support Cassania and myself on the project So he we wanted you to all meet him and to for him to start following along with the project So thanks Connor for joining. Okay, so I'm going to share the agenda And it's actually not Super dense agenda Um, can everybody see that? I can so I think that means everyone can right okay, so um mark margaret. I'm sorry. I I just I don't believe we Had met roger before at least I'm sorry Good morning But roger wallace is joining us from the school committee and roger might be a word He was a long time elementary school teacher. So he's bringing Multiple roles to us And roger am I right thinking you were at the last meeting but you weren't on screen, right? I was at the last meeting I couldn't vote because I had I hadn't you hadn't been officiated. Uh Got it. Nice to meet you roger good to meet you roger's a legend Yeah, everybody nods everybody knows Who's had him as a teacher? all right, so um We're gonna start out with some fabulous news from the msba, which you've heard a little bit about I'm gonna do a schedule update Um, we're gonna talk a little bit about construction document process Uh, we had a great sustainability subcommittee meeting this week, which will recap Um, I'm gonna talk a little bit and get some feedback from all of you on a question about playground surfacing that we We want to get feedback from the committee about Permitting update. I'm probably going to talk about as part of the schedule update and then we have a couple of invoices So that is the agenda So Kathy msba news and reimbursement Uh, yeah, so I I sent everyone um the press release and I sent it in words but the The short good news that's excellent good news is we're The estimate from margaret's team is we're going to get an additional 9.7 million dollars From the grant toward our project, which will directly offset what we have to go out and ask the test payers for We haven't gotten the the final final the msba will review the estimate, but they increased The cap on construction costs and the cap on site costs, which directly played into ours This was good news across the state for a lot of schools. Um, we were in the batch of not yet bid So it's it's quite thrilling. You know, I was asked by a couple residents Can you tell me what that means? I said well the msba shared I was up to about half I mean, it's a it's a giant increase from where they were at about 40 million before a little bit over 40 million So this this is a huge increase the caviar the they when they were Release this it does not increase the budget It just increases their share of the budget So they are with what we sent them in schematic design what would set them in the most recent Still is the design of the school. So it wasn't an invitation to add a lot of things It was uh, we're gonna pay for more of your school than we were prepared to before Yeah, I mean the way the way I would think about this is we're still above the cap. There's still Uh cost of construction that's being excluded But that number is smaller. So Um, it it's it's wonderful news. I mean, I just it was like the day they called us to tell us it was like the best day ever. So I hope everybody is as excited about This as we are and I also you know want to just say that Um, as I've said, I think before to this group. So this is the legislature taking action Um under pressure, right the legislature gave the msba more money And the and then the msba was charged with figuring out how to sort of share it. So We're one of this is this project is one of nine projects that got supplemental grants Some of the projects that were already in motion are also getting funding In fact, tim is you is your project in swampscot getting any additional funding tim's on a building committee in swampscot We are getting more additional funding Much to the delight of our account as well not as much as amherst because we're at a different phase but It's good news all around the state. Yeah Yeah, so any any any project that I think was bid during cova 20 before 22 20 to 22 something like that There's 100 million extra. That's a separate pot that they're divvying up. So um, again, not as much and we didn't get as much as the projects that are Not yet have not received a project funding agreement. Um, they've raised the cap on that but for future projects for future projects, right? So It's still awesome. It's awesome. It's it was overdue and fabulous news so So we thank your local representatives mindy and joe huge Really they they were outstanding on this Right. I just realized that febe. I didn't see your picture. So I'm now I see you and I realize you're here So I just want to make sure you can hear us and we can hear you and I think elicia may have joined us as well It has Yeah, I'm here And elicia I'm not I'm also here. Thank you. Kathy. Okay, great. Thank you both I'm sorry. I go by the pictures on the screen. So I Don't have the names Up and running. Okay bar margaret back to you. Okay. So I'm gonna Uh tackle the next item which is to give you my now traditional schedule updates. So I'm going to share um the same a little schedule diagram to talk about um, so We we're moving along. So we we are here, right? So here we are We had the sustainability subcommittee meeting on halloween We're meeting today Launching into november. So the whole schedule has moved forward. So it's a couple of updates We have we're set the design team is set To send the 60 cd set to the estimators On december 8th. That's the schedule, which means we'll have the estimates back They take a little bit less time in this phase. We'll have those back before the holidays The So the design team is cranking on that and they can talk a little bit about that later in the meeting in terms of this building committee um I don't believe this is on the schedule yet, but we we'd like to have a meeting december 8th of this committee um, you know, I will say in this phase of the project I do not anticipate that we're going to need a meeting more than once a month So we're going to kind of keep looking forward as we do this And if the 8th works for everybody, I'd also like to look forward to january And pick either january 12th or january 19th. So let me come back to that um, we're also in the process of Scheduling a design subcommittee meeting On interior finishes with staff and on and pulling the design subcommittee together on exterior finishes That meeting date is not yet set But it'll presumably be either the 28th 29th or the 30th of november, which is the week after Thanksgiving so Again, we're still I'm still getting feedback from folks about their availability But once we have those set we'll let you set have that meeting let that's an in-person meeting. Okay MSBA so the MSBA just completed their review of the Sorry, it's not the 60% design development review um, and we just received the comments so we need to have a meeting with them and We need to respond to their comments, which were You know pretty they're particular but they are There weren't any Real issues. We have a design the team has a design review meeting scheduled to them on december 7th This is sort of a standard standard meeting um, in terms of other design review that's going on We're looking we have a meeting set up on the 9th to look at site circulation on the site with the school staff Because this is a sort of you know, how it's going to work during construction meeting We have tentatively set up a meeting with the disability advisory committee as part of the town's review on the 14th And denisco is in the process of scheduling some other meetings with dpw On the lift station and then there'll be another meeting with food services meetings are not yet set And then finally on permitting um There is a first hearing with concom on 11 13 And we anticipate meeting with the planning board for the first time on december 20th Is actually this concom meeting is Tim have I got this is this december it's december 13th, right? December correct. Yeah, okay. Sorry about that And margaret are those Is concom confirm that's a confirmed meeting and planning board you're still Getting on the schedule. I'm just asking what you're set up. Okay We tim. I think concom is confirmed. I'm not sure we reached out to the planning board yet. Correct uh, I've had initial conversations with uh, jenn from all ins the permitting coordinator to establish the application date and format and so the application is In mid uh, november, but we are not technically on the schedule yet. Okay But we are planning to be or hope to be All right, let's say 12 13 proposed Okay, so that's kind of the update. Um, so Um, any questions about that before I take that down? Yes, what's concom? Oh conservation commission. Thank you. So, um part of Angelica has her hand up also Okay. Yeah So, um part of the work that's involved with this project is within the 100 foot buffer from fort river So it's required to go to con concom angelica Just real quick. Uh, what is the disability advisory committee? I mean who's who makes up that committee? Kathy do you want to think you know more about this committee than I They reached out to us to ask whether they could, um set up a meeting and they will I think paul can say more of this they typically get involved in any large project like this just to hear what we've set up ADA compliance, they also One of the members is particularly focused on If you're visually impaired are there wayfinding signals other than signs, you know something you have to read so it is a Back and forth with them with the designers just to tell them what has been built in both inside the building and outside the building Yeah, so I'll just jump in so disability access advisory committee d a a c There's it's an appointed body. That's advisory. Um, and they do bring a lot of Expertise to the table. So it's very really worth having that conversation with them And they offer good insights from people who are often experiencing different levels of ability. Um, and so At um, and so it's you we've really benefited from their expertise I don't see any other hands Okay, so I'm gonna I'm gonna take this down. Um And I want to just talk a little bit about Construct where we are, uh where the design team is in the process. So, um The the fact that we're moving to permitting tells you something about where we are overall. So the We've had a lot of meetings in the past that have been focused on uh, design decisions both in this group and in the subcommittee meetings. So um The intensity of that is past, right? The design team is now creating the bid documents That are uh, going to be used to you know, buy the project in the public realm So the updates will be a little bit less exciting around design but they're going to be More focused on, you know, telling you about these coordination pieces So I just want to sort of set the table for that and also to remind everybody If you didn't already know The this project is being developed in as two packages. So there's an there's an early package Um, sometimes, you know, these kinds of things are called enabling packages which are uh, which is going to allow the the poor soils on the site to be prepared for construction and then That early package is going to be bid I believe we're planning to bid it tim and rick. I think it's in march, right? no, uh, February February February So that the early package will have will get bid in february Which will give us, you know, some sense of how we're doing relative to estimate And then the the main building package will be built in the summer When the intention of construction starting in late july So tim and rick, do you want to add or donna want to add anything about the construction document process and how you see it going forward? Sure. I mean, yeah, I don't know. So so it you know, as it relates to The overall project and the input of the building committee Obviously, there's still a lot of decisions discussions to be made colors Uh patterns we have the playground we have to talk about. Um, so so there is a lot of remaining items to be discussed We'll be talking about towards the end of construction documents The ff and e and technology making sure we fully understand all that but a lot of the big push Um will be in the development of the documents for the contractor to be able To to actually construct the building, right? So it's a lot of coordination and details Uh technical details That that are required We'll be having more of the smaller meetings with Uh the interested parties for really glamorous items like the lift station margaret Perfect example You might want to explain what a lift station is That that's the uh sewage ejection system that's going to take The sewage from the building up to the gravity main in the street Yes, it's not the elevator. It's way way less exciting than the elevator. So Okay, um So any questions about that? So what I would like to do then is just pin down Oh, kathy Yeah, I just have one um, you know, particularly because I've learned these acroms the ff and e that's when we're focusing on furniture Correct. Yeah, and so yeah Donna that Is happening sometime in the spring. Um, it doesn't go out. Let me ask it differently in the general contract to build the building It doesn't have the furniture in it. So we we we have a focused meeting on Furniture and issues at playground. So um as as we As margaret and and you all think of the schedule on a january february march Anytime we could get signals on when that might happen because sometimes it's difficult to set up these meetings in advance so It was Yes, that's that that does those decisions have not been made, but we will have a discussion about them Yeah, so just just um to put that into perspective Both the we call it ff and e uh furniture fixtures and equipment and then the technology equipment We have spent a lot of time. We've established the basis of design for those elements. We've worked Really hard with the individual teachers Within the building a special education All of their needs so that we've identified The actual furniture and equipment and technology that will go into the building but What we're going to do we will have another review one final review before Um construction documents are complete just to make sure nothing has changed. It has been a couple of years will be 24 when we have this conversation right we starting 21 so um A lot a lot Hopefully won't change, but we want to make sure that the intent is still there but because we don't we won't be receiving The furniture and technology until the end of construction We don't want to go out to bid on those items Too early in the process right Furniture manufacturers change their lines all the time and everything else so The the real lift will be during construction when we pick the actual colors of the furniture Make sure that the models for the technology are still in place, etc But we do want to do one more check in before we finish our construction documents to make sure that The outlets are where they should be and things like that And then for the playground, I think we would and we can start that process Sooner rather than later that is not contingent on Manufacturers changing their models or anything like that So I see Angelica's Angelica's got her hand up Yeah, I had a similar question about glass because um, I know before we had uh in the summer racy issue about Uh talking about the possibility of either two-way mirrors or something to allow for observations that are not disruptive for Classrooms say like the ILC or other classrooms and I know that we have racy issues and uh allison and some of the teachers had and I think back then um superintendent like morris had raised some issues about Contracts and about some some concerns. And so we wanted to figure out when we could Uh raise that issues and forgetting to like then be gritty of stuff and talking about glass um an interior design and When would be a meeting where we could figure out where what the latest is on that issue? um I don't know Donna. What are your thoughts about that? Well, I I We just 100 have to defer to the district. Um, our understanding is that any special observation within the classrooms um is is not part of the project so I I would just have to defer to the school department on that Right now it's not it's not incorporated And if things do need to change now would be the time um So I um dug and tammy. I don't know. I didn't see allison on this. I I don't know If you all We have an offline conversation with angelica. I however you guys want to handle this but um angelica I think what I'd like to say is since we are having a meeting um With staff to look at the interior colors We can we revisit that with them that that meeting's coming up fairly soon and come back to you That would be great. Okay We'll put that on the agenda for that meeting And if if I'm not It's not in the budget right now. I think is the other piece of this Correct It isn't that's that's right. Yeah Because of the feedback that the design team had gotten previously on the topic So because this has come up a couple of times and I think each time we said no um, so I I think If this conversation happens, we need to then put it to rest Close the loop on it. Yeah, I agree um My recollection was that I wasn't done exactly because I know that last time we talked with allison There was a conversation to go check back on contracts and then there was the movement and shipped with the superintendent So it kind of kind of dropped off because of that and allison had even suggested the possibility of a furniture And I know we also one of our members Sent an email regarding best practices that include an example of Worcester. So we're happy. I'm happy to have The c-tech parents who sent those letters Send some updates with some images from the schools in Worcester and some best practices to just for the staff to discuss about some possibilities Of providing for observations from parents that are also not disruptive of classroom practices and within contracts as well Yeah, I mean my recollection of the last conversation was that we we did talk and I remember Allison might have been the one who suggested this we did talk about The possibility of using furniture within the room to do that which seemed like something that would be Agreeable to everyone, but I do agree now that we have dug here Um, it we we need to revisit it. So thank you for bringing it up angelica Okay, I don't see any other hands I want to just before we turn to talking about the good stuff. I want to just get these meetings pinned down. So again Recommending that we have a meeting in december On december 8th. Can I just check and make sure we'd have a quorum? So be at 8 30 on the 8th Can I confirm that we've got a quorum for that time? Roger Roger. Yes, Kathy. Yes Jonathan. Yes Jennifer. Yes Doug is nodding Rupert Where are you? Angelica. Yes Tamiya Can you tell me that date again, please december 8th? I sent it out in the email. So I don't know whether people immediately but Margaret can put a hold on everyone's calendar Yeah, we put the hold on Yeah, I can probably do this Alicia Phoebe Yeah, I'm good to be there Yes for Paul. Yes for Paul. Okay Phoebe, I will have to get back to you. Okay, but I think we have a quorum So you're going to get an invite for that and then the next one would be Setting a meeting for either the january 12th or the 19th for this group So Margaret rather than do that now. Why don't we quickly do a poll on those two dates so we can get on with We can do that. So everyone just look at their calendars and I will send out Okay All right. So then the next item on the agenda Was construction document meetings process updates. So I'm going to turn the floor over to Dinesco to give an update I will say Margaret that what you covered in your schedule update Gives us most of the background that we need for the update on construction documents as you mentioned We are going towards a 60 percent estimate and review with the msba Which is sort of concurrent with the Packages that we are preparing to go before conservation commission and the planning board So I am repeating a lot of what you said that we are moving from the design phase into the documenting phase and checking off all the boxes Um, you know, some of the last major decisions are going to be made at those uh building and interior and site The committee meetings that you have on the schedule for the last week of november But we are just moving along and another aspect is the early site package Which will be going out to bed early in the year. Um, and yeah, and at 60 percent That drawing those set of drawings and specifications will be pulled out To be evaluated as a standalone package It's good practice to do that for cost estimating and uh msba requires it for the 60 percent review To see what those early packages will look like so that's we're starting to divide That scope of work up between the two contracts now Do you can you guys just recap for everybody? I didn't do a very good job I think of sort of stating what was in that package sure, so imagine a line drawn 30 feet off the south end of the building and uh That portion of the site will be prepared by a separate contractor doing Earth work and soil improvement work. So they will be doing site demolition which would be Removing the old parking lot paving in that area the comfort station that's there the ball field lights They will be stripping and stockpiling the loam from the lawn areas They will be installing rammed aggregate piers. That's the soil improvement to to basically stiffen the soil it's like jamming pins in a pin cushion and making it harder and then after that they will be Overburdening the building footprint to preload to compress the soils and what that will Get the general contractor Is not quite a shovel ready foundation ready site, but a site that When the general contractor starts in august sometime he'll start pushing around the dirt that was Weighing down the footprint and begin excavating for his foundations when the weather starts So favorable Yeah, and all of that is I'm just going to say leading up to the fact that this is going to get very real In march when that fence goes up And so that's why we have that meeting scheduled next week so that everyone fully understands how that site is going to operate once Once things start moving Exactly Bob Herron has his hand up Yeah, rick one quick question with the initial work is they're going to be preloading and monitoring that'll have to Continue to determine when they get moved to the next phase there will be monitoring platforms and preload monitoring by our geotex otl Yeah, they'll be monitoring it. They anticipate that the overburden just needs to be in place for three months Okay, so if you imagine Crepping the footprint from east to west They'll start They'll strip the top soil start Installing the ram agro get peers at the east end and then overburden it as they go So that by the time they're done the next contractor could start at the east end to Begin excavating for foundations So we think it should be pretty seamless Okay, there wouldn't be a Potential where they might have to wait longer for additional settlement before they could proceed We don't we don't think so but by going out to bid in February to be on site march april We'd have a chance to Make adjustments to the general contractor's contract. So we don't promise something that he can't get Thank you Rick do you want to Say a couple words about the gas line So there is a gas line that needs to be relocated also as part of this enabling work Although it'll be by the gas company So berkshire gas needs to relocate uh A gas line which conveniently takes a Diagonal route right through the footprint of the new building Because when they installed their new gas line They did it where they didn't have to dig up the parking lot or anything that would have disturbed the school at the time While this is going right through where we're going to be installing Deep foundation work. So obviously the pipe has to be moved and we finally Found somebody that's right now preparing um the cost for the gas company to do this work So the gas berkshire gas will excavate install the gas line at backfill uh It'll be done before the Early site package The gas lines got to be out of the way say march 1st or april 1st uh Once we get and the town agrees to Their back charge for this gas service work if you will They can perform it at any time uh Coordinating with the school operation So they have to basically Attach to the main somewhere near the street and attached to the main somewhere at the building but just get the loop out of the way But in terms of contracting and cost Um, even though berkshire gas will be doing this work Or I assume that we can expect that a bill will be coming to the town of some substance It's it's like I believe that Answer does have in the budget some quote utility back charges We do so this wouldn't be A heck of a lot different than if you're building a new building with gas And that would be the cost for them running the the line to the building because of because the line is Between the street and the building's meter The gas company must do this work. We didn't have the ability to make it part of a contractor's scope And the other thing that's in terms of uh, contracting and money is that come January we're going to start preparing to bid the early package come february We'll probably be bidding it and looking at contracting so that they can get started on their work as soon as But whether allows in the spring So the the contracting methods for to get deep in the weeds with people on the municipal end We've done this most often under chapter 30 39 m horizontal construction for the early site package and not Chapter 149 So it will be a different contracting uh procedures and We'll be reaching out Paul to see if the town's got a preferred form of contract For horizontal construction. If not, we have one that we've used Okay, so I see that's that sounds good. Simone would be key to that rick right I see jonathan has his hand up bob and kathy. So jonathan you're next And just just to clarify this is work that's being done to keep The gas available to the existing building through the next, uh, whatever it is year and a half um Because it's in the way of the phasing of the new work That's correct and after that it will be removed cap and and there will be no more gas to the site Kathy, I think you were next uh, yeah, mine is I think rick and and senya answered it but In terms of the cost of this we will get a price tag And in theory it's already covered under the answer contract But if it's not some of this would be borne by the town is that how this will work So what? No, I don't It won't be borne by the town. It's there's a there's a value in the budget It it may or may not be the right number, right? I mean we always carry a number for utility relocations Um, if it's more or less that just changes money within the budget So if it's less the money goes back in contingency if it's more we take money out of contingency Um, but I think the the immediate question is How to how to manage the flow of money? This is the question that berkshire gas is asking is who's going to write the check and We need to have some work to do. It sounds like with simone to figure out what that will look like So the town will pay it, but it will be Uh, potentially reimbursed through the msba if they consider reimbursable in a sense It'll be the first check that the town writes toward construction of the new school And as far as budget goes not only did answer have a utility real Relocation line, but it's also lives in the design development budget Our estimators have had priced Relocating this line. So it's not a new cost Thank you. That's that was my question. Thank you. So if it's if it's paid By the town then it reduces the construction costs by the value that they were they carried Bob parent has his hand up just a quick question Do you have a rough value of that initial contact contract? You just wanted to try to get it in context to the overall contract. We haven't they haven't given us yet. Okay, okay Are you talking about a rough value of the early site package? That's correct Yeah, actually actually that that does exist in the design development cost estimates that was pulled out separately So we can find that for you and the information that's already gone Bob, I can send you the um the estimate so you have the whole thing Curious, so we talk about hundreds of thousands or you know low low millions or low millions millions. Okay Okay, no more hands Alrighty update from the sustainability subcommittee bob your hands still up So Jonathan do you want to As the chair of that subcommittee you want to give a quick update? Sure. I can give a quick update And hopefully someone will pipe in if I forget it was a it was a conversation about many things So if I drop something out someone else feel free to pipe in it as Kathy said I was a really great meeting. We had a lot of very engaged folks from both the design team and our committee in the in the community And you know, we talked through everything from how the the latest round of You know statewide energy code changes have impacted things and how the design team is adapted to you know broad conversations about plug loads and and and Oh Kathy, I know I'm forgetting something But it was it was a good conversation, you know, it's clearly not the end. There's still more to discuss And there was a you know interesting conversation about you know make going back and and reconfirming You know some of the schedules that some of the energy modeling is built on And I think some of that's already happened just from from what I've heard through through emails. So I I was really happy with the with the process It was a great conversation What I would just add on a lot of the materials are in the packet for that meeting, but one of the concerns that was raised and and we're double checking is we have to do to Understand the potential energy need of the building. We have to know how the building is going to be used and and there was a lot of work done On people probably remember on on how much after-hour how much on weekends how much in the summer and Donna has sent that scheduling back out to Doug and Tammy and Rupert, you know just to verify because it's uh issue if you build A fabulous building it gets used Build it and they will come So Regardless of how currently so and that's that's primarily an issue of how much How many solar panels do we need To offset the electrical cost of the building and then within that it's how many monitors within the building Do you need sub monitors so you know where you're using the energy? So it was a very rich conversation particularly for me as a layperson because it was Using words that I could understand And One of the ideas and recommendations has come out of the person who's doing the checklist for us Is that early on at the school level? We put together a committee and Rupert was in this too that is saying Okay, here's the general policy on use of energy But also get the kids and the teachers involved saying, you know, one of the things we're trying to do is being Sustainable and it would be an on-the-ground Way of getting people excited about this. It wouldn't be just rules So that's something clearly until we get to the building We won't Be setting that up, but it was a recommendation on other schools that have done this that when they had an internal ongoing group of users It it was an asset for the building and I see ellison has joined us So I just want to make sure that ellison can hear and be heard ellison. Can you just signal? Welcome Go ahead cath no So I think that was one of the things that came out of this jonathan This is an ongoing process and the checklist that was done for us Um was off of schematic design and design dd phase And they will be it will be an ongoing list as the construction documents. So we have a another architect team double Looking looking over various things making recommendations. So one of this is this user group Go on jonathan And just and just by way of context I think it's you know, kind of helpful for the broader community to know that You know as a town building it needs to be net zero But it's also It's also for better or worse breaking ground at the the state level because it's the first project that's gone through some of the state's new energy modeling processes And so we have a lot of really competent specialists working with us To get us through that that new process at the state level it was For me it was very impressive because it's I shouldn't quite use the word guinea pigs, but the the back Not that far off though Back and forth through the energy models with the state on are you sure and they said oh no No, we haven't written some of the code yet. We'll fix that we'll fix that So there's been a lot of back and forth on uh, this new building code on how it affects real buildings. Um, and uh, the the team Is right in the middle of it. It was Incredibly impressive to see um the level of coordination with the state and and then with the modeling for our own project. Um, it was exciting and confidence building And on both things Okay It was a great. It was a great meeting. So Sorry, I've got uh Okay, so now we're going to pivot to engineered word fiber versus port-in-place rubber. So um So the I'm sure that you all have heard we've had comments, uh during public discussion about what, um, Dinesco design and their landscape architect have proposed about Um, the use of the material Underneath the Playground equipment where there's the potential For falls. Oh, I just want to say I see Allison has joined us. So Alice can Allison. Can you see us? Yeah, can you hear us? Okay. I welcome her and she Oh, great I had her is missing. So, um So, you know, I think this is this is a A challenging discussion because there's a lot of different aspects to The decision and what I what I want to do we'd like to have a discussion here amongst the building committee members and hear your perspectives Right now what the design is showing is what's called port-in-place rubber and I want to Want to make sure that everybody knows what that is. Does anybody not know what port-in-place rubber is So this is the kind of rubber Surfacing solid rubber surfacing that you often see under playground equipment Does anybody not know what that is? Okay, so and then engineered wood fiber is the kind of It's it's it's like a wood chip material, but it's sort of at a high it has a higher standard So again right now the design team has showed port-in-place rubber and we've talked about this a couple times it I mean it is currently for better or worse the industry standard There are a bunch of different issues though trade-off so Kathy asked me to kind of put together a summary for the committee of the different issues and I'm going to show you that summary. It's in the packet And what I what I want to do is I want to kind of go briefly through the summary I want to have denisco speak a little bit about why They and their landscape architect are recommending the the port-in-place rubber And then I want to hear comments from the committee about this and have a brief discussion So I'm going to just quickly pull up Pull up my memo, which again, it's in the packet if it's easier for you to look at it that way and because Of the way my screen is there we go Okay So can everybody see this? Lovely item So what I did here and again this is I'm not I'm not I'm doing this as the owners project manager trying to summarize this for the committee, right? So I'm not doing this as an expert on this but I did some research Actually, Kathy did a ton of research Kathy. Thank you Which she shared with me and then I sort of tried to pull it together and and um summarize it so Actually, I'm going to start with the second page here because this is sort of a good This is a this is An expert group. Okay, so here's the children's environmental health network had this pretty nice summary of the two items. So engineered wood fiber benefits disadvantages, so Um super simply it's easy to install It provides good impact absorption It stays in place better than loose field disadvantages Made from completely new wood can hide insects and other pests microbial growth Can occur It's more expensive than wood chips, although way less expensive than port-in-place rubber And it it takes more maintenance and those costs kind of accrue over time So the port-in-place rubber It's it's easier to use with mobility a da mobility devices So if you're in a wheelchair if you're in some kind of Thing that's got to move across the surface It provides great greater impact and shock absorption, which I Believe we will hear from Dinesco is kind of the main reason that it tends to get specified for playgrounds It's impact absorption is consistent i.e. It doesn't change the materials more stable Than the engineered wood fiber animals do not find it appealing Um, you can imagine what that means generally low maintenance costs easily repaired the disadvantages Are is expensive. It's what we have in the budget now. It's got to be kept clean and swept regularly Um, here's the nugget Right, so it is it can be made every cycle tiger tires among other materials And that can contain here they mentioned vocs, but it can also contain what's called p-fast I don't even remember what p-fast stands for but I mean these are that these are, you know materials that you don't ideally want You don't want to have on a playground, right? So this is the the nugget. Um, you know just to go back to my summary Um, you can imagine what this looks like so on the ADA compliance side um the The engineered wood fiber can be made to be accessible but it's a whole lot harder, right? Whereas the rubber is a smoother surface From a safety perspective and here I'm I'm using safety to to define the issue That is around impact. Okay, so maybe this should be qualified to say impact. So Um, the the porn place rubber is just a whole lot better Because it's it stays in place and it is more resilient This can be the engineered wood fiber can be safe But it takes a whole lot of maintenance to to make sure that it's Not getting I'm sure you've all seen playgrounds where this material gets scraped out, you know In areas where there's a lot of use like under swings, right? Um installation cost There's just no comparison the port in place rubber, which again is what we have in the budget is expensive Um, but it is the industry standard, you know, kind of because of the safety issue up above the engineered wood wood fiber is You know financially a great deal as a first cost in terms of installation cost Permiability so this has to do with how much The material lets water through to absorb rather than producing runoff They're both permeable um, the arguably It it had it actually has a little bit more to do with what's underneath it than what's on top of it um, so in this case the The difference is small, but the engineered The the port in place rubber is a little bit more permeable It's actually if I can interject Uh our stormwater engineers actually apply Higher permeability rating to the the port in place than the wood chips finding that it yeah because of the substrate it It ponds so it's a different They would run numbers differently if it was the area was wood chips Yeah, exactly So which is an issue for the concom because the again the design that is being taken to concom right now Is assuming the port in place rubber and if we went to engineered wood fiber It would be a slightly lesser permeability cleanliness I mean, I think you everybody gets the issue animals like wood chips And um, it's kind of harder to keep that material clean Care and maintenance This is I think a big one for the district in the sense that Although the installation cost for the engineered wood fiber is lower A lot lower It just takes a lot more maintenance snow removal I mean You can remove fine obviously remove Uh snow from The port in place rubber you do have to do it carefully. It's really tough with the wood chips and then lifetime costs You know as related to the maintenance up above The maintenance cost is lower so You know, this is you know again the summary I gave each of the colors a score I added them up at the bottom, but I think it's the color just looking at the colors that kind of give you the overall sense However, none of these score the issue of the VOC and the PFAS which is really hard to get a handle on because you don't generally know um Because of the public bidding regulations, you don't have as much control as you would like to have over Uh Where it's coming from And whether it's going to have any of those contaminations now from my perspective There's been a lot of scrutiny On this issue in the industry and I believe that the industry is You know cleaning up its act about where they're getting their the materials from for the port in place rubber But I can't give you a guarantee about this. So um with that I wanted to just ask um someone from the denisco team to talk a little bit about Your perspective about what the use of port in place rubber and why you think that's that is you have That's what you've used in the design Well, go go ahead Rick. Sure. Uh I can't Well, this is a discussion we always have with our user groups and our clients, you know when we're going to design And for the reasons that you mentioned Uh, you know, we start off suggesting the port in place and virtually everybody Uh has some experience with wood wood fiber in one way or another And we haven't had anybody request Uh the wood fiber and everybody's been satisfied with the port in place rubber As you alluded to Port in place rubber is tunable They actually vary the thicknesses for fall hazard The substrates thicker At jungle gyms or where the fall hazards might be higher than the bottom of a slide or something like that It's a much more precise material Like I said our Civils like it for for stormwater calculations because of the stone that's under it in the drainage It rain water runs right through it. So it doesn't affect It doesn't act like pavement at all We've seen some installations. We've revisited after 10 12 years and they've been Just as serviceable as they were that the the day that they were put down Um, we've been more I personally My role on a building committee heard about PFAS but only from synthetic athletic surfacing standpoint and there's been a lot of discussion on it there and We haven't heard anything similar on the port in place services At this point in time Great. Rick. Thank you. Tim. Did you want to add anything to them? No, I mean that covers our experience with it. Okay so that being said, um I can I could the folks on the committee Comment on this what your perspective is because we've this was presented early on We heard public comment about it. We've never had a chance to circle back And get your thoughts, but this is this is the opportunity because we do if we're going to change direction here We do want to provide that direction to Dennis go sooner rather than later I see Angelica's hand is up Thanks, Margaret. I just wanted to thank you for that chart and that information This is a really important issue. So I appreciate it like you and Tassie doing that research and the thoughtfulness involved because um, this is A really hard set of trade-offs and I'm glad we're having this conversation because it is some trade-offs here You know on the one hand There is some really alarming concerns as you say about using of recyclable You know rubber materials that may contain carcinogens And that's really a big challenge and that fact that this is made out of rubber And we're trying to move away from fossil fuels and haven't you know a building that is That that is something that represents That zero and you kind of build something that's environmentally sustainable at the same time There are some differences for ADA compliance that are really a challenge as well as upkeep as well as safety And so I'm eager to hear what other people think about balancing those two. I think like you said, um, Maybe the industry is cleaning up its act I don't hold much faith in But nonetheless, um, it is It you know past experiences that I've had with uh engineered with chips or fibers It's it might be more ADA compliant, but it certainly is It's a difference, you know It is a difference and most of the accessible playgrounds I've seen Have a port and rubber surface at the same time that is still really alarming to to know that We know from also anecdotal experience that the heat issue is a huge issue I believe the port and in place surface is the same as grove park And all parents who have kids going to that splash pad in the summer know very well That is a challenge to keep those crops in place so that the kids are not taking them off and then having these surfaces be super super hot It's horrible So I would love to hear also more from the engineers about what solutions or what ways we can mitigate some of those If we make one choice over the other because both have Um, both are like balanced in terms of the trade-offs for me right now Uh, mr. Parent I'll be muted If you don't mind I'll weigh in on this topic first I think everything that you've summarized margaret is 100 correct. Um, And I make my comments as a former owner operator Maintainer of playgrounds as well as designer Uh, when I was I was dpw director in east long meadow for a number of years I was city engineer in holy oak. So I you know, I was very involved in a number park projects um One item that I flagged to margaret. I just texted you a link to it. There are draft proposed draft changes to the state aab regulations That were put forward back in 2018 and for some reason they haven't advanced But at that point the aab was going to specifically state that engineered wood fiber was not an accessible surface Because it the reality is for accessibility purposes. It is Almost impossible to maintain it in a continual state of accessibility You know port in place fiber is it's an interesting product. I'm a port in place Rapper is an interesting product. It's ugly when it goes in if you've ever been there when it's installed You know, it's not a very worker safety or environmental friendly product. That's that's a given But it does provide the accessibility One thing that I've seen done on a couple of projects is somewhat of a hybrid solution Where you try to mix engineered wood fiber and port in place Since you don't need to maintain 100 accessibility to all portions of the playground um Of seed port in place done with pathways or certain portions of the playground Done in a port in place and other portions done in with the ewf You know, so that may be a compromise type approach Thanks, Bob. That's helpful Phoebe Hi, um, so I I guess I have more questions than than opinions at this point I'm wondering if we have sort of expert advice either way either from The you know, you said that there was going to be meetings at a later date with People who really specialize in accessibility and I'm wondering if we also have the ability to Kind of ask Ask the experts, you know, like the people who specialize in this things both about the environmental impacts more so the impacts of the materials on our kiddos um, and so uh, you know, and what is our Does this have to be decided today? Can we wait to get expert advice? Like what is that timeline? When do when does this kind of decision? Have to be nailed down. Absolutely have to. Um, I just I just am Would like to have a little bit more Input from people who really really Know and understand what the long-term ramifications Um of this kind of thing are So let me start with The last question about timing. So we are not deciding this today. Okay. I mean conceptually it was decided when Dinesco presented this originally but this committee has never taken it up as a specific issue and We this it seemed This seemed like the right moment. So we're definitely not deciding it today I'm assume my hope was that we would identify some Issues that you all wanted to hear more about Hear your opinions about it at the moment and revisit it in december now at that point I don't think we should be going Past that moment to give Dinesco direction if we're changing the design because they are going down the path Developing their documents based on this assumption, you know, and as rick pointed out Even the conservation All of these things start to become very kind of knit together and integrated If we change Two engineered firewood fiber that starts to change what we say to concom and that, you know, that meeting is coming up In early december. So the submission for that meeting Is three weeks before the meeting. So those calculations are going to concom. What's the date tim? november 22nd So there's a series of stormwater mitigation calculations That are using uh port in place rubber as A surface area that are part of the overall scope of the project So I think it would be What things change, but you also have to go back to concom after that So it could be a consequence So phoebe to speak to the expert issue, um, you know, I think that I'd be curious That I think the nugget of this is that there's a fundamental discrepancy which angelica and bob have done well in outlining here Um, we're even if we take out the cost issue, right? The fundamental conflict here is between the safety or lack of safety of the of the Port in place rubber in terms of Contant potential contamination with the accessibility. I mean, that's the nugget of it, right? Overlaid on that. I would say There is the issue of, um The maintenance cost, but I suspect That if it if there are really clear decision here Um, which there I think there is not and the maintenance cost is sort of a sort of second level of concern It's a concern, but it's it's probably not the driver Um, although Doug and Rupert may disagree with me about that Um, there are In in doing this research, I mean, I'm happy to sort of do more research But I will say in doing more research This there's the opinion on these things is very split Around that these the this issue between accessibility And and contamination, so I'm happy to do more research. I'm happy to summarize more research But I will tell you there isn't It there's you're either on team Um, it's contaminated or you're on team. It needs to be accessible So let's hear from others and circle back to that. So, um And uh, Doug, you had your hand up and Kathy and then we can circle back to Angelica. Is your hand still up? Yeah, okay. So Doug Thank you. So I think that for me the the question I want to ask a little bit about is, um Uh, you know, you sort of mentioned in the bid process, there's limits on on what you can and how you can constrain Uh, you know the the vendors around the this topic and so I'm sort of curious as to to what level of of impact can we have in other words to You know if we would go with a port-in-place rubber You know, can we put metrics on it that they need to you know comply to a certain level as part of their bid, um, or or Uh, and and the you know sort of resulting product, you know, if we have it tested or or we have Some metrics that we can put on it. Uh, can we do this part of the bid process? Is it allowed? I mean, obviously it makes things potentially more expensive and and obviously more complicated if there's a Sort of performance standard that we are composing in a bid, but can we even do that? And if so to what extent and I mean, I think that you know the harder question is like sort of what are the Sort of right numbers and and restraints we might put on it, but I'm just curious about one of the possibilities I think it's a great question and I don't know the answer to it I'm wondering if Dinesco has any thoughts about this Uh, we have not yet had to look at metrics for Um The raw materials for a port-in-place so I couldn't comment Basically, yes to answer your question establishing that as part of a criteria to Evaluate products as an equal to your specification under Massachusetts bidding laws is Is doable The only thing that we are bound by Is specifying products that can be met by Three three manufacturers at least Or else it becomes a proprietary Issue which there's time to do that So yeah with more research it might be possible if someone's making a product That they can guarantee Uh, whatever metric isn't present I think you're you know like as best as free might be such such a such a statement, but I don't know if there's Agreement on the compounds that people should be trained to keep out of the product yet I think there's some 6,000 PFAS compounds of which Testing is only available on a handful of them Doug that's a great question. Um, so I see Uh Kathy's hand went down Angelica's hand went back up and Jonathan also is in oh Kathy's hand went up back up Okay, why don't we take you next? Take Jonathan first because I I want to I've got something else that I want to bring up Okay, Jonathan and then Angelica So I I would be interested to know more about whether or not As Doug has stated whether it's possible to specify A variety of this that's You know inherently better than other varieties in a way. I don't it's not a product That I've ever had to specify in my practice before so I don't have a lot of personal understanding about it Um, and I would be curious if if if there are some Materials that are better than others and could that uh be something that we could get in a a specification um I will also add that you know to me accessibility is an important component to this um and real quick Murray when you were putting up your comparisons Did I see that the engineered wood fiber actually has arsenic in it? Or is that the older style stuff? You were scrolling kind of fast and I saw the word arsenic, but I wasn't sure where that landed You know, this is so some of this material is from Uh product websites. Um, I I tried hard to not take material From someone who was selling something. Yeah Um, I did come across that comment. Um I you know again relative to uh, Phoebe's question There's a lot of different marketing stuff out there Um, and I would imagine the arsenic thing is a little bit like what we're discussing relative to the PFAS is You have to think out of one one potential Contamined for another that's not that's not a That will trade to me. Yeah And we have plenty of fields in this town that are you know from a history of apple orchards Already contaminated with arsenic. Exactly John the you're all set so Angelica and then Kathy I think on a similar point, um Because I was also when I was doing looking up these things It was very confusing to weigh through the information of what is ad compliant Oh, but it's a website trying to sell that so if it's possible when you do the next iteration of the report If we can hyperlink some of the studies or the things that you have found like the one that Robert mentioned because I'm really Eager to hear that that point was really solid and I would like to to know more like that about from Not advertising perspective, but about 80 compliance from different sources because uh, I think that's a really important point as well Yeah, and actually that's why I added the um children's environmental network piece to that because I mean, they're one of the few Who are not selling anything, right? And I think their summary is is which is the second page of that memo Is is super easy, but they're they're also I would say they're not they're not Saying one or the other is better. They're just saying these are the choices communities Have to have to weigh to make this call, right? Okay, so Kathy had her hand up. Paul has his hand up. Kathy. How about you? Yeah, I'll just be quick. I'm jonathan. You're right. You saw the the word arsenic and it was how the Engineer wood is treated and it would be a question of how it was treated And if they don't treat it then their trade-off was then you get insects Um, and you can get mold so insects aside So it's it's not like either Any of these choices are completely free one of the things You know on maintenance that um when I was looking at this the To get any kind of resilience under the engineer would you have to go quite deep And in terms of the amount of it and then maintain it keep doing it in and I I would be hesitant to say that we've been I would make a different statement. We have not been great at maintaining surfaces in in our In whether the school playgrounds or other playgrounds and this stuff does not have the long-term maintenance So I think it's a real concern So my only other pete bob mentioned that you could have a mixed approach right now All of the playground We have a pretty big surface area that's pip poured in place Could part of it be one surface and another part be another So where you were less likely to get falls or where you weren't looking for the wheelchair access And I know that's a design question and the new thing I heard today was uh permeability Um the fact that we're better on storm water with With pip I think is a major plus because we're in an area we need to worry about water a lot Um And so I just think that's there all these pluses, but but that's a huge Plus or a minus. Um, and I I there's an article today in the times about hoboken Which has better storm water control than they used to so they weren't flooded the way brooklyn was With the most recent storm and having been in hoboken when it was flooded before It was boats in the street and they didn't have boats in the street this time And it was the both their parks their streets and their storm water that made a difference. So I'll stop paul Well, thanks. Um, yeah, I I don't have a strong I don't know enough to have an opinion about this first off. Um, I think the um I worry a little bit about the hybrid solution that sometimes hybrid solutions bring you the worst of both worlds You have the same maintenance issues that you had before I think in this situation we have competing goods and competing bads that we're gonna have to weigh There's not going to be a clear cut winner. I don't think we're just going to have to make a decision we can't be paralyzed by Too much information trying to There's always going to be more information and margaret to your point about sort of finding neutral parties. I always am um You need a critical eye because a lot of these nonprofits are funded by industry sources So, you know, it might be the you know the committee to protect children and In animals and then it's funded by the plastics industry or something like that. Um So I think that um the things I care about The initial cost seems to favor wood chips. Um, but And I I'm much more sensitive to the ongoing maintenance Cost and ability to maintain and we all if you have kids you They've been on playgrounds and you've seen the playgrounds with wood chips that have been They quickly deteriorate into hard rock hard surfaces, which what's the point then? um And I and I think maintenance is is a challenge for us generally and that's it's going to continue to be a challenge um So I look at Compare the initial cost to the ongoing maintenance cost and ability to maintain Um, I guess the question I would have and maybe this is something we could find out is We're not the only ones who care about our children. Everybody in this room cares about our children But there's lots of other schools and school districts making the same kinds of decisions and grappling grappling with the same kinds of questions I'd be curious at the you know through the msba what other districts are choosing Based on you know, they all have really smart people thinking this through Is is there is there a quick easy way to find out what other People are making in terms of decision on this You know Paula such a good question I would actually say probably the best resource is the boss in society of architects has a really great k-12 school Design committee, which I am sure denisco participates in but I could definitely reach out to the committee chairs And ask them if they could circulate a comment A question about this because that would be um It's a great question. So why don't I plan to do that? Thank you Okay, so rupert has his hand up and then roger Uh, thanks. I just want to confirm What everybody else is saying about the challenges with wood chips um, our experience here is Of that. It's very difficult To keep them fluffed up enough To provide the safety that we need for the children We're talking about a foot or more of wood chips and It's very difficult to fluff them up by hand And with playground equipment. We can't really get close enough to fluff up where the biggest fall hazard is So it is it is definitely a challenge to try and do that So I worry a lot about ongoing safety for the kids for fall protection And I also Uh, recognize that uh, there are some serious accessibility issues wherever you have wood chips and how you Who you listen to may depend on you know, is this someone that needs A wheelchair or is there somebody who needs a walker? Is there somebody with crutches? They all have different issues when it comes to navigating um Moveable surfaces like wood chips, especially if they're plucked up enough to actually be safe for fall protection So yeah, it's it's very tough to imagine For me to imagine being able to keep wood chips Safe and functional in the long term Thank you. Sure roger Yes, I I just wanted to I actually Rupert said some of the things that I was I was thinking in terms of Having spent so much time with Children on the playground with wood chips It's very difficult and I was very interested in and sort of maintaining Doug's idea of Whomever we contract and I know Dinesco Can talk about this in a way. I can't Making sure what do they put in there? The rubberized surface and and compare that with Whatever it is we can get the most safe Because wood chips are very difficult. I I know that paul has said about you know, the ongoing maintenance Etc etc But I know about how they get dug out and you wish kids wouldn't hang from the dome because you can see Down below that the wood chips have been Knocked away and there's no way of getting a rake out there and putting Five more inches in so It's got to be one of those things whatever we Do decide We want to get the best quality of that material. That's all. Thank you Okay Allison I'd be curious What because one of the things that happens when our wood chips are not maintained There is a higher risk of children breaking bones And so I would like to see with port in place. Are we Really minimizing that occurrence if there's port in place versus wood chips because I just don't know the research on that Also, so when I look at the You know PFAS PFAS I know that I was reading about the toxicity things and it's in 97 percent of us because of the level of this This being in our environment Basically, all of us have this in us and so If this is I don't understand enough about the issue, but if we're talking about What a playground at one school in one town Will do for the overall health of the population when it sounds like this is so Ubiquitous everywhere in our society that we're all holding this in within our system. I just want to understand if we I just want to understand where that concern is from when If we're are we saying that as a stance like are we making a point like on a in an ideological stance Because we just want to say oh, this is something we want to be Marked as being against and so we'll make a decision based on that When it's so ubiquitous and everywhere else in our environment that It's not necessarily going to change The the how it's impacting our society. I just want to be clear about that because it feels a little bit ideological at that point Allison just to speak to your question about the the broken bones issue. I mean, I think based on the research I saw the It's clear that the engineered wood fiber if if in a perfect condition Is can be a very good cushion Probably close to The port and place or I think the port and place river is always going to be a little bit better But I mean, let's say for the purposes of the discussion They could be the same that you could put in enough engineered wood fiber to be the equivalent of the port and place river The issue is that it's really hard to maintain the perfect condition and so if you are I'm going to talk about the the perfect condition You know Probably You know, you're you're going to lead towards the engineered wood fiber But I think you you know, we've heard folks here, you know, roger rupert sort of talk about the reality of that so So, uh, I don't see any other hands And I think we're now at the point we're going to talk about permitting that we covered that I think unless Tim or Rick have anything to add Um, we can probably Uh, move to invoices And I'm going to turn it over to Ksenia to do that Or, um, I am not able to share my screen Yeah, uh Um, yeah, I was made a co-host so I I just said everyone can you should be able to now You're gonna go Can you see that? Yeah Okay, so today we have eight invoices to present and approve They are two of them are for answer advisory and six of them are for denisco architects design um, the OPM invoices at up to 64 $1105 the architect design invoices at up to 374,517 and 43 cents not to be forgotten The OPM invoices are for the month of september and for the month of october Where the october invoice Is of significant more significant value because that's when the Independent estimating work was done um, looking at the dd set of documents And the architectural invoices are for all for october this september has already been paid um Any questions on this before I present the actual invoices? Moving on you can stop me at any time Um, so the one second is this big enough for everybody to see? I can a little bigger. I can send you please How about that a little bigger? Even bigger. Um, we don't need to see the whole page You don't see the whole page one second too many things floating around on my screen um Back to the invoice That's better. Yeah, how's that? Okay all right So this is the first of the answer OPM invoices from september For 1008 80 It has multiple pages of notes explaining who did what for how many hours and it includes No consultant backup because that's in the next one. This is the october one We had to cut it off october 29 to try to get Accounting closed out actually on both teams in time for this meeting, which is earlier in the month than usual 22 000 for answer labor and 30 800 for the estimating effort for a total of 53 225 and again with multiple pages of Notes on what each person did for how many hours on one day And that reference to the estimating invoice at the bottom followed by The estimator's invoice um Now we get into the design teams invoice and this starts with This horizontal landscape summary And continues into the individual invoices with backup So i'm looking down the requested this period column and the first number i come to is the construction documents Billing this is the first billing for developing the construction documents Um with the design development document billing having been completed last month And this is 12 and a half percent of that effort Um, that's the biggest part of this billing the rest is are smaller They are to do with reimbursable allowances this 5500 dollars is for um uh ever source net zero consulting services This next one for 1650 is for um the asr on a little backstop compliance Donna can probably or i can probably help me translate asr Supplemental geotechnical services 32 751 68 and 1507 for additional surveying work And finally this one for wetland permitting work for 16 08 75 And i will scroll through the invoices This is the big one for the first part of cd development And zero consulting back up to that Another invoice this one is for the wetland permitting work With backup to that You can slow me down or tell me to skip stuff as you like Um geotechnical services invoice from denisco with backup from their consultant Or back up to the same Never denisco invoice for the surveying work With backup from berkshire design group their serving consultant denisco invoice for a little backstop compliance assessment Again with back the backup from torf and to my study the consultant And page 35 35 that is complete Hmm. Can I just check to see treasure collector Jen has reviewed these as well. I believe right Jen. I have reviewed them. Yes And you're good with them. I am good with them So I move to approve the invoices as presented I second Kathy do you want me to call her all? Uh, no, I can do it. Okay. Um Okay, so, um, I'm going to call All committee members will actually Make sure they get every one this time. So Kathy is a yes Jen Yes Simone Yes Paul Yes Tammy Yes Rupert Yes Jonathan Yes Allison Yes Doug Yes And Roger Yes Um, let me just check that I know Alicia said she had to leave early and Phoebe And I and Angelica so I don't see Phoebe anymore. Is that correct? That's right So, uh, three absence otherwise unanimous Got it. Okay So I think we can open up for public comment Yeah, and one thing I just wanted to say for those new two invoices, um These are as Paul said these are being checked by the town and both answer and denisco are working within a budget So when we're looking at masses of money where It's it's in control rather than, um What are we saying yes to So and these are all being documented. So I am going to turn it open to public comment And I Okay Bruce I have allowed you to talk Um, thank you Kathy. And by the way, uh, would help if you occasionally list who the attendees are I know on the planning board the chair always reads the attendees at the beginning of the The public comment question session just so we know everybody knows who's there Because indies don't know who's there everybody else can look we can't Um, oh god, my wife's about to walk in and disturb everything. So, uh, one question and two comments the first comment has to do with the Tim you said that the the excitement level Is diminishing as we head into construction documentation and permitting and all this sort of stuff and that I said that It's very exciting for dinisco But one of the things that uh, I think can replace that is one something we discussed That was discussed in the sustainability subcommittee And that was the the the the development of a user or management policy um Kathy also said that the furniture and equipment design work will move into Generate some Engagement and so forth, but I think this can as well how the building is going to be used and the uh A group of folks to get together it was recommended in the sustainability committee who can develop A user and management policy that can begin to understand and and and direct the the user Practices and and so forth and and I offered to participate in that but I'm sure others will too, but I think that's an important and and stimulating a Piece of creative endeavor that can happen during that time period When things are slowing down in other ways second comment on the synthetic versus the wood paving It was a very interesting discussion. Uh, I read a little bit but not so much about this But what came forward to me in the discussion you've just had is that I would Give the nod to the synthetic material because Of the two variables that migrate on the two principle variables one is the uh, the the need for maintaining accessibility on the one hand And then the second was the the question of the the adverse health impacts of Of the synthetic material Because we know the variable related to Access is real and that we have a real solution to it that is durable and reliable and tested versus a level of Unknownness in relation to The health impacts and so forth in this instance, although I'm being associated with trying to build healthy buildings for the bulk of my professional career I think uh, one can't become too fixated as uh, um, I think Allison was suggesting It can get a little too ideological in this instance We know there's a key important variable that we have to service and we know we can with that synthetic material And so I think that would suggest to me that the nod goes to that surface in this instance And then we proceed to do what paul and others have mentioned and uh trying to get the best, uh Product in that realm by how and we how we specify and how we go about the contracting of it um and finally, uh The the question um Are we intending in the initial package site package? um The wooden poles. I know I've seen those out there and we all have because we visited the site a number of times They're very tall wooden poles and I'm uh, I want to know whether there are plans to salvage and reuse those poles Particularly the of ground above ground portion of them because they're very tall And and I think you could cut them off at the base and still stick them in the ground five feet and get a Good usable above ground portion for a continued 30 year use or something like that. So I'm I'm hopeful that There are plans to salvage and reuse those wooden lampstand light poles Thank you all as as usual. I continue to be impressed with everything that's going on here Thank you bruce and for others information. There are four people bruce was one of them And I will bring in Rudy at this point And the other two are maria in tony I can't think can you hear can you hear me all right? Yeah, I really really perkins hammers. Um I was uh, there's a lot of things today a lot of uh, I'll try to be quick. Um There was a good discussion at the sustainability committee meeting about the equipment and the need to start looking more seriously And in depth about the energy use of the various equipment We're putting into the building I think I said something at the end of the meeting which I'd like to walk back a little bit and that's if the occupancy Is changed in the building if the occupancy schedules are changed. We can just fix that by putting more solar panels on I I suspect we'll get into eui issues in terms of meeting the 25 eui for Our are which we need to get from ever sources for ever sources subsidy So I think we're going to have I suspect and the modelers can tell us That we're going to have to reduce Our energy use more in the building in order to accommodate a possible change in the schedule That would be a greater public use more hours and so forth So I think we need to keep drilling down on energy and the equipment is one place we need to do it Because it's more flexible at this point in the design. I was a little uh Concerned that Donna seemed to imply that we've already generated the list of the equipment That we're likely to be using in the energy the information technology in the building and I don't feel like we've had any discussion really on the Energy aspects of a lot of that equipment. So I hope that list if it really has been generated can be posted So that people can begin to look at it and think if there's other alternatives for both use and the models um The things we should look at first if we haven't already Are the things that have a dimensional impact on the building because we'll need to know that right away like the elevator and the walk-in freezer and cooler um, I understand that ashree's recommend recommends insulation heating under the walk-in freezers to avoid heaving Of the floors. I don't know if that's there. Maybe it's in the drawings. I haven't seen it But the elevator if we need to look at a different model for energy purposes That could have dimensional impacts on the elevator shaft. So we need to look at those kind of things right away And I hope we have more frequent sustainability subcommittee meetings to do that um Can we please post the opera owners project requirements? That was referenced in the net zero Checklist. I don't think that's been posted yet. And obviously the the equipment list if it's been generated um in terms of the uh Let's see So Anyway, that's that's a basic point We need to be looking at the the equipment in much more detail And I don't think we've been doing it and I don't want to get to the point where we seem to be with some items where It's too late because other documents are going in like with the concom on this issue of the surface of the playground Uh in terms of the surface of the playground I hope we post a link if we're doing any revision to this Summary to the UMass little toxic use reduction institutes playground surfacing Report because I thought that was a very useful. It's a few years old now And it might be good to reach out to them and see if there have been changes In their conclusions about these two materials But there's a pretty good summary of the different aspects of these two And I'm I'm sorry that wasn't linked along with the children's environmental health network report so um Let's see and then I'll just take us back one last time to the bylaw the bylaw raised the energy budget in the provision in f To formulate a preliminary energy budget for the project consistent with The zero energy requirements prior to schematic design and that was to be done by the town and the project end users So I think this is this is consistent with this idea of setting up an management net zero Operating committee or whatever you want to call it and looking at All of the equipment and energy uses and energy practices that will have to go into making the school work From the the modeling standpoint and I won't try to recap that whole discussion because it was very good on a couple days ago at the sustainability committee, so um Thanks, we need to we I think we need to bring the energy my guess is we're going to need to bring the energy Down and we should do that by scrutinizing the equipment carefully and that needs a lot of input from the staff to see What they need and what might be acceptable alternatives that use less energy and let's start with the hardest building issues First and then scrutinize a lot of the other equipment So thanks so much Thank you, rudy Maria I have brought you in Thank you. Um Once again, thank you to rudy. I do find it I I appreciate that the engineered wood fiber versus port in place is on the agenda But it really was astonishing that you guys conducted that entire conversation and nobody Brought up the toxic use reduction institute out of UMass Lowell who has done the analysis and the comparison of these materials to To not discuss that here. I I just don't understand. Um couple things to correct We're not talking about wood chips. We're talking about engineered wood fiber. Please read Turi and please read more about that to understand that there are differences You need to also understand that the engineered wood fiber that you get does not have to contain arsenic There are you would not buy anything that had arsenic. So that should be an avoidable problem. However Ford in place is made With crumb rubber from used tires Which contain not just PFAS and we don't even have all the data on that But it contains polyamoromatic hydrocarbons. It can trans VOCs. It contains heavy metals including leads. It contains phthalate It contains a host of materials that are of concern and have carcinogenic effects respiratory effects skin effects Heat hazards. These are all This is known information When we talk about maintenance Yes, you do need to maintain Any playground Including port in place and you have to also factor into that that we are building A building in a site that is to last at least 50 years Port in place Will not last 50 years It's going to need to be replaced anywhere from 10 to 15 years on the shorter end if it is not maintained properly And when it degrades it releases these chemicals into the environment when that crumb rubber becomes exposed like you can Check out our high school track to see what that looks like when the crumb rubber is now Free and is loose material and can be ingested Please read Tory and Please go back and read the even the Document that you just talked about from the Children's Health Network Here's here's what wasn't included in the memo Where they go on to say that New York City has banned the this is directly from the Children's Health Environmental Network New York City has banned the use of crumb rubber from all recreational areas in the future a bill in Connecticut that That has been approved by the Planning and Development Committee would impose a moratorium on all rubber surfacing Sorry, I'm scrolling here On all rubber surfacing materials until clear guidance from the EPA and federal government becomes available California and Minneapolis are also considering imposing bans on crumb rubber for use in playground surfaces The information is out there We should make a decision That is looking toward the future and for a net zero building to contain this This material that is made of petrochemicals and has these risks It it I just don't get it Um Yeah, thank you Thank you, Maria. That is Uh, okay one more person has raised their hand Tony you've joined us Hi, thank you. Tony Cunningham own drive I just wanted to make two comments One on the schedule. I'd sent an email through that. I had noticed there were some changes in the Schedule included in the design development submission to the MSBA versus a version that had been posted a week earlier And it appeared that things got pushed back a month So I didn't hear any clarification on that today if that is indeed the case And uh, so the questions I was going to ask has it been pushed back a month Was this change reflected in the most recent cost estimates because I believe you use the midpoint of construction for estimating escalation And is there still an expectation the school will be ready for occupancy in september 2026 And then on the discussion you had today about the playground surfacing I would love to see more exploration done in bob parent's suggestion of hybrid It is a 15 000 almost a 15 000 square foot space that you're proposing which is a huge amount of poured in place surfacing and There certainly are spaces in the playground that would require greater accessibility and fall impact protection And there are mats available. There are kiles available or you could potentially Do the poured in place in those places where impact is most needed or The raking of engineered wood fiber is less desirable So if you could like at the bottom of slides Underneath swings You already see this in a lot of places where there's mats put in high impact areas or fall areas So is there a potential for putting the poured in place surfacing in some parts of that 15 000 square foot area? And then engineered wood fiber in others There is a cost impact. It's a half a million dollars. I think last time I checked I could be wrong on that So it's a huge saving potential to reduce the amount of poured in place surfacing To where accessibility and fall Impacts are most needed as far as the product specification the basis of design has specified a product since the beginning It's surface america's playband Product so unless there are other products that the designers are aware of that they would consider Every cost estimate that I can tell has based their estimate on this playbound Pip product As far as mold growth it says in the materials. It's unlikely if drainage is adequate and I Believe denisco is planning on putting proper drainage under the playground. So I wouldn't anticipate Um the insects and mold being a concern if it's done correctly Um, and then I'm a little concerned about the comment about because PFAS is already in our environment We shouldn't worry about putting more in I don't I'm not aware of definitive studies yet that have linked PFAS to pip, but there are studies under under way Um, as rick correctly said, there's like 6 000 or more types of PFAS and there's only testing for about 20 or 30 of those types and We know it's in crumb rubber so It's likely PFAS is in it But it I am not aware that there's been a direct link studied and reported on yet but that's the suspicion And the fact that it's in our environment adding more should not be something that we pursue Especially in a building that's supposed to be cutting edge as far as environmental and health and climate aspects. It seems Um to be inconsistent to knowingly put in a petrochemical product that that potentially contains Harmful well, we know contains harmful environmental and safety Aspects and then the heat thing is a real concern that angelica commented on there's I don't think there's any plans for shade or trees Over these over this playground 15 000 square foot baking in the sun. So I think heat will be a concern Um, so thank you for the opportunity to speak and I will Put my hand down now Thank you, tony We don't have any other hands up from the public. Does anyone on the committee Have final questions or comments? I mean might As far as I know, we are on schedule to open the school In september 2026, but but we get we will confirm all the timelines margaret gave you the the peace timelines, but we will confirm them all at the december eighth meeting and Including key points on like when the old school gets demolished. Um, that is all in the plan So I don't know whether anyone else Has comments if you do have comments or questions including the reports that have been mentioned I We we can respond. We can put more material into the packet Yeah, and there's a there's a couple of takeaways. I think people have made good comments We can follow up and this will be on the agenda for the december meeting. So So i want to thank everyone and it is amazingly it's 10 30 which was a target stopping time and Please let me know if you cannot make december eighth and then I will poll on the january the two january dates. Um and Other than that, I wish you all A very good Thanksgiving because we won't meet as a group until after Thanksgiving holidays So again, thank you very much. We are a george Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye