 And sometimes, this is so awesome. We are an open culture that is really, really, really cool. Everybody has something that they can tell you. It's on top of the Red Hat portfolio. Hi, and welcome to In the Cloud. I'm your host, Stu Miniman. You might notice I am not Chris Short. So first of all, I want to welcome the new people watching and the ones that have been watching the program before. Big thank you to Chris Short, who started not only the In the Clouds program, but the OpenShift TV that started about a year and a half ago when the pandemic happened. Chris has moved on to another job. I actually got to do a video interview with him before he left. And you can still see Chris, he's in the community, still on all the socials. But by way of introduction, if you haven't seen, I was a guest on In the Clouds about six months ago. I'm director of Market Insights with Red Hat, joined a little over a year ago. And before that, I'd spent a decade as a technology analyst and a host of a video program known as The Cube. So I'd done thousands of interviews, very familiar with Red Hat. Actually, back at Red Hat Summit 2014, I got this lovely Dev Nation hoodie. So no Red Hat, no the cloud ecosystem. And so I'm really excited to be able to come on as the guest here for In the Clouds. Just a quick level set on here. This show has predominantly been talking to Red Hat executives in the past. We will be adjusting a little bit. So we will still absolutely be talking to plenty of Red Hat executives. One of the things I'm always passionate about is the practitioners out there. One of the ways that you learn the most is hearing from your peers. So hoping to bring more of those customer stories. We've got a couple of those lined up for hopefully early in Q1, as well as we'll have partners, industry thought leaders, and the like. But in general, building on what we've done in the past on this show and the others in the Red Hat live streaming, which is we're talking about community. We're talking about open source. We're talking about some of the cool technologies. In this show, being in the Clouds is focused on all of those activities in the Clouds. So we're really excited to welcome. I have two guests for my first episode here. And we're going to be talking about developers. So we all know, I think, how important developers are. I always joke when we talk about this topic back into 2008, Steve Ballmer yelled it from a keynote stage. Developers, developers, developers. I mentioned back in 2014, Red Hat had had a developer show at Red Hat Summit. Back in 2013, I'd read a book called The New Kingmakers by Stephen O'Grady from Red Monk, talking about how important developers are. So I've got, as my first two guests, two of the leaders from the Red Hat developers team that is built out. So I want to welcome onto the program. First, I have Methune Dar, who joined Red Hat earlier this year. He's the vice president and general manager for that Red Hat developer business unit and a new member of his team, our organization, Ignacio Riesgo. He's the senior director of developer marketing and strategy. So I said, just joined weeks ago. So Methune and Ignacio, thank you so much for joining me. Absolutely. Happy to be here, Stu. Thank you so much, Stu. All right, so in the clouds, I myself spent a lot of time, as I said, in the Red Hat ecosystem, but cloud and cloud-native ecosystems. I'm looking forward to, in just a few weeks, I'll be going back to Amazon re-invent. First went to that back in 2013. Actually, it was the first time I got to interview Ashesh Badani, one of the senior executives here at the company. Ashesh is the one who we all bubble up to. Here at Red Hat, Microsoft Ignite just happened their virtual event. Google had their cloud event. So I've been to all of those. Both of you have some experience before you joined Red Hat, working for some of those cloud leaders. So Methune, maybe start by way of introduction. Tell us a little bit about your background, as I said. I dig back a little bit. You worked for Microsoft, a part of the Azure, and some of their developer activities. You worked for some of the SaaS providers. So give our audience a little bit about your background and what brought you to Red Hat. Absolutely, Stu. So I've now worked in the industry for over 22 years. And a big chunk of my time was spent at Microsoft, where I spent a decade. I was part of Microsoft Research, working on speech technologies. The first half of my tenure at Microsoft, the second half of my stint, I was in a division called as Developer Platform and Evangelism Division, PPE in short. We love acronyms. And as part of the PPE, I was in the Pacific Northwest leading developer relations and focused my efforts there. It was a cross-platform role, and evangelized pretty much everything that Microsoft platform had to offer. From there, I moved to Citrix, where I was in the office of the CTO, again working on platform efforts. And from there, I moved to Concur, again, building out an evangelism team. And post-Concur, Concur got acquired by SAP. I was there also leading strategic communications along with evangelism. And after Concur, I was with a company called Hear Technologies. Here is a location services company where we built location services. And if you have a car, guaranteed the map within your navigation system is probably powered by here. And from there, I joined Red Hat because as the world is getting modernized, and this has been true, especially now because of the pandemic, when everything is getting modernized and enterprises are moving forward and realizing that a hybrid cloud strategy and a multi-cloud strategy at that is at the heart of that transformation. There's no other company that offers the best of everything, and where you can have your cake and eat it too. And that's where Red Hat is. And there's a tremendous opportunity from an open source perspective as well, where we are engaging developers and bringing the best of open source into Red Hat through to our customers. And that's what I was passionate about. That's what I've been working on for over 20 years now. So I thought I'd be able to connect all the dots and join Red Hat. Awesome. Thank you, Mathun, for that introduction. Ignacio, you have lived many places throughout the world. You came most recently from AWS, but like Mathun, you also had some background with Microsoft. So give us a little bit of way of introduction of yourself. Thank you, Stu. Yeah, I also have been a while. I mean, I have been over 25 years in the industry. As you say, I started in as a director. Honestly, my background was a graphic designer, and at that point in time, I started working with technology. So I joined Apple at that point in time in Spain, in Madrid, working with the credit markets and doing a bit, since has been always a bit of the same that has been between the technology and communication. So I joined Apple, I stayed there for 11 years, working and starting to work with developers, teaching them how to use the technologies. At that point in time, it was completely new for a disruptive market like newspaper and creative production. Then after that, I joined Nokia, where I moved to London. And Nokia, as you know, probably Nokia was the leader at that point in time of the mobile industry, but they have a problem. That was the developer ecosystem. There were no applications for the phones. So I joined that in order to work on that area. That was a fun ride. Unfortunately, I was not even aware at that point in time that Apple was going to be the leader because when I was at Apple, the iPhone was not even there. So, but that was fun. I mean, we started in London, then we moved into Silicon Valley in order to make that transition to convince developers. And then after that, Microsoft bought the company. So I continue working with developers inside Microsoft. Again, about the developers, I've said everything about the developer ecosystem, what you were talking about. Balmer staying in the stage, developers, developers, developers. So has been kind of a mantra forever. And then after that, about three, four years ago, I joined AWS. At that point was when the Kubernetes was really starting. So I joined the team in order to launch EKS. Three years later, here we are with Kubernetes as a standard and EKS as one of the main products in the market. So that is the reason why very recently, one month ago, I joined Red Hat to work with Methune in order to develop the ecosystem here at Red Hat. Yeah, no, Ignacio, I love in Methune both. You gave a little bit of the history what's going on. Yeah, Ignacio, some people out there, do they remember Apple before the iPhone and what are the transformation they've gotten on there? Most of us in the tech industry, we watched the real transformation. I mean, Microsoft's been a leader in this space for decades, but was a little old and not the buzz of the discussion until the last few years, Satya Nadella really reinvigorated that company despite a lot of the underlying pieces happening there. So I guess I wanna talk a little bit about the developer team. So Methune, you run this organization, you brought Ignacio on there. I wanna get a little bit of kind of the personal as well as your organization. So if you can tell us, just philosophically, you both have been working with developers. What's the thing that kind of is driving your mission and how does that intersect with the role here at Red Hat? That's a great question too, and then the deep one at that, let me think about this. So let's start with the philosophical, what drives me to this job every single day. Look, I mean, for the 22 years, I've either been a developer marketing to developers or building stuff for developers. That's my entire career. And I think if there was one word I could use, that would be empathy. If we've all spent some time on the coding land all the way from C++ and using VI editors to now using some of the best tools in the world for developers, I think we have come a long way. So for me, making developers productive and having that empathy to understand what developers need and how we can make them more productive and effective, I think that's what drives me to be in this job and every other job that I've been at. So let me give a little, with that context, let me give a little insight into the developer business unit at Red Hat, developer and tools business unit at Red Hat. Between engineering, the BU, which includes product management, product marketing or developer marketing in this case, and then all of the finance people, all of the other supporting functions like documentation, advocates, all of them. We are a little over 400 people within the developer and tools organization. And we are primarily focused on developer productivity and developer engagement. So all the programs that we drive, all the tools that we build are aimed at getting developers excited about our platform. For instance, a big chunk of us were working over the last quarter to get REL9 beta launched yesterday. So if you guys haven't seen, head on to developer.redhat.com and learn about the REL9 and you'll see a small flavor of how we work with the various business units within Red Hat. And we are a cross-functional business unit. So we have the hub and spoke model where we have the hub and we connect into every other spoke within Red Hat. And it's, I love my job and I'm super excited with over five million developers between the Red Hat developers and the J-BOSS community. We have a tremendous engagement and a lot of developer mindset. And we look forward to continue working and getting our tools far and wide into the hands of developers. Yeah, Ignacio would love your take kind of on the same question. And I guess, looking back, you worked for Apple, for Microsoft, for Amazon, your initial oppressions also of Red Hat, which is a little bit different from some of the other companies. We're not as big of a name. We understand, we partner across those companies, open source of cross-driving, but yeah, your personal philosophy and build on what Mathun talked about there for the organization and your role there. Yeah, I mean, for me is, if I try to summarize it's about getting out of your comfort zone. After traveling and living in different countries, working with a lot of different people, it's about, okay, it doesn't matter what you know today, that is going to change in the technology industry. So for good or bad, if you like what you are doing today and you are pretty comfortable with the technology that you are working on today, be prepared, you need to understand what's going on because it's going to change. So be prepared for the change. And here, I know that people don't like to change, but change is mandatory, especially in our industry. So how do you handle that change? Basically what you try to do and a bit of what Mithun was talking about is, first of all, you surround by people that are even better than what you are. You play on their strengths and you compliment them on what they are missing, but you know well. So here in our team, we are surrounded by incredible engineers. I mean, they are super deep technical people with a lot of expertise. So what we try to do also in our team is compliment them, work with them much more on the communication needs of how we are going to talk about all of those technologies that they create, how we are going to explain all of that to developers. Also, right now we are in a very competitive industry where we have a number of players launching technologies. So it's very difficult to stay on up to date. So we are helping them in order to understand what they need to learn, help them to learn it, be prepared for what is coming next. So that's why the importance, a bit of what Mithun was saying about the importance of open source, the importance of collaboration, and then the innovation that is happening in the industry. I mean, that has been always happening. So this is not something new. That's why I always say, well, if you don't like what you are working today, it doesn't matter, it's going to change. If you like it, it doesn't matter, it's going to change. So looking forward for those changes coming. Yeah, there's just some great points there. They're absolutely, you know, the only constant we know in our industry is the pace of change. Look, I wanted to share just from my personal standpoint, you know, that was one of the things that drove me, you know, to look at and join Red Hat. I've worked in the cloud and cloud native ecosystems. It was actually, you know, a conversation that I had with the Shesh back in like 2018. And really, if you look at what Red Hat has done for more than two decades, it is dealing with the chaos and that pace of change. You know, Mathun, you talked about what's happening from the Linux standpoint. You know, there's so many thousands of lines of code that get updated every month. You know, who helps put that together and make sure that enterprises can take advantage of it. Well, that's what Red Hat's been doing for decades. You look at the Jboss space, you look at the Kubernetes space where I spent a lot of time. It's the same kind of, you know, chaos out there where so many people are contributing and putting the pieces together. There are so many options out there that who can help bring them all together? Well, that's really been Red Hat's strength in what we've done. And personally, I love to, you know, I think Ignacio, you said it, pulling together some of the technology and the business type of pieces. You know, that's where I've loved being that it's conversations like this where you wanna understand the strategic pieces and then there's a lot of cool tooling and technology and things underneath that we'll deal with. So I wanna, when we talk about developers, one of the things anybody that's been in this space is developers are not a monolithic culture. There are so many different types of developers. So the person that might care about the REL9 beta, you know, might not be the same person that's, you know, building the new applications. I saw Red Hat has a lot of connections to various developer groups. So, Methune, help us understand a little bit, you know, what is the developer landscape look like? There's sometimes this term thrown out there as like, you know, is there even an enterprise developer or is the developer in the enterprise still butting heads out there? What are you seeing? What are the conversations you and your team are having there? Yeah, that's a great question again. You know, see, from my perspective, a developer is a developer, right? That is, the way I look at it is there is a nine to five developer where you're developing for your work and may you may be working on a constrained set of technologies and on the platform that your work has endorsed and your work needs. And then your five to nine developer where you're developing for passion, where you're learning new things, where you're learning a new platform, where you're learning a new language maybe or exploring, right? So for me, the whole landscape between an enterprise developer and sort of what's called a long tail developer is sort of a big blur. And in between you have, in between that spectrum, you have all various other developer segmentations that are quite popular. Like, oh, this is a startup developer. Oh, you have a developer working on more, particularly if you want to dice it, oh, this is a cloud developer, a mobile developer, a front end developer, back end developer. But at the end of the day, the core tenets of being a developer is going to be the same. And what drives them is going to be the same, right? What Ignacio and I and others on the team drive to is just the same. Like whether you're a mobile developer, whether you're a front end developer, whether you're a cloud native developer, whether you're just a back end, front end GUI developer. At the end of the day, we want you to be productive. And Ignacio, you and I both worked at Microsoft while the segmentations were there. And of course there's different platforms, different products that get offered to various developers in that segmentation. We all strive for one thing, right? Keep it simple, make it effective, and make sure the access to your product and technology is completely friction-free so they can get started, they can be empowered to use your platform and be successful. And those three key tenets, Stu, I keep it close to my heart and we try to bring it through across everything that we do. Yeah, Ignacio, I'm wondering if we can build on that. So some of the jokes I look out there is how do you market to developers? How do you sell to developers? The answer is you don't because they don't wanna be bothered by you. They want easy access. What Mithun said, do you keep it easy? Self-service, I'll figure these things out and everything, but of course there's some nuance and some room in there for the activity and of course there needs to be some feedback loops and communities and open source play into this. So give us a little bit as to what you're seeing in that space, what's the latest as to how do developers want to be interacted with? Well, I remember in one of the presentations, obviously when you are every day surrounded by them, you spend some time with them, having lunch, et cetera, and they are very open with Ignacio, please. No one single is like about marketing. No one single is like about how well the company is going, how much money you are making, thank you so much. I just want, basically, you just need to explain me three things. First, talk me about technology, train me. Help me to understand for what I am going to use that technology, what are the solutions that I am going to find if I use that particular technology. Help me to understand the differentiation between each of those solutions because the challenge that they have is there are so many things that they need to learn about. You need to know where they are going to invest in time. The first thing, so be super clear, super simple about, today we are going to talk about this, this is going to solve this and this is why you need to learn it. Second thing is, help me to understand what is the problem that we are solving here. There are a lot of different problems, but you need to tell them, okay, this is for artificial intelligence or this is to change the CI CD, your process to publish code. So help them to frame for what they are going to use that particular technology. And the third thing that they ask you is give me a community because when you are developing, always you have problems, always. And it's going to be difficult for you to find that particular piece of code. And sometimes also when you are coding the problem is you are so focused on the problem that you are completely unable to see anything beyond your sight. So the community is bringing you that, the community is bringing you solutions that you are not even thinking about and that's the only thing that they are asking you. Give me that community, other developers that are already working on that. So I know what to do and where to ask and who to ask in order to solve that particular problem. All right, so Ignacio, I've got a follow up for you. Since you came very recently from a partner of Red Hat, you were working with Red Hat, you've got a bit of that outside view as to that ecosystem, that community. So obviously, AWS is a big important player out in the marketplace today. I remember going back to the earliest Amazon re-invents. It was very much the hoodie crowd. Developers were there, they were excited about it. So what did, what did you see about what Red Hat was doing, how it was working to mature and work with developers and work with that cloud ecosystem? That, you know, I know we're relatively early in the deep partnership with Amazon with the Red Hat OpenShift Service on AWS, but it had been a relationship that had been building for a number of years. Well, I was on the other side of the table when we launched together a Rosa product, Red Hat OpenShift on AWS. Literally, I was doing my part launching that product to developers at AWS. That was my starting point to contact with Red Hat, understanding what they were doing. And the biggest learning for me was the incredible position that they have in open source. That is something that you cannot compete with. Okay, and second, the fantastic position that they have in the private data centers. So being true that obviously at AWS we are absolutely focused on the cloud, the public cloud, but the Red Hat has an incredible position, especially on customers about the private data centers. So what really attracts me is that challenge is how we are going to move from that private data centers into the public cloud. That is a challenge that a lot of customers have. If you, just to give you one data point, 2.6 is basically the number of public clouds that we use today by organizations. And today, 95% of customers have both public and private clouds environment already installed. So the challenge is we are really starting on that journey. We are literally starting from the journey to move all those customers from today, those private data centers, moving them into the public cloud or keeping that hybrid cloud where you are managing both private data centers but you are also using part of the services in the public cloud. And if you think about the future also that is going to evolve into the edge. That is you will have inside data centers, you will have usage or part of the usage in public cloud and then you will have also services on distributed edge. So the combination and that journey that again, we are literally starting that journey is what really attracts me about Red Hat. Mithun, I got to meet Ignacio actually in person at KubeCon which is really nice and a number of your team members were there. The ecosystem, the open source communities, I mean at KubeCon, I know there are at least dozens of projects that we were personally involved in and helping to drive as a company. I mean, it's hundreds if not thousands of projects. We've got dozens of key partners, hundreds of other partners. We've got a cloud marketplace with over 150 integrations just on OpenShift and, you know, REL has even more. So, you know, you've got a team of 400 but that's a good size team but it's not an infinite team. So how do you look at that ecosystem, the open source? What's the role that Red Hat plays? What are the levers that we're moving to help drive solutions forward for our customers? Yeah, you know, every project that we are working on, you know, we leverage the power of the open source, right? Open source is the way of development for us at Red Hat. And we work with the community. We get the community insights. We make sure that community has a say in this and that's a big differentiator for us. You know, take our, you know, OpenShift GitOps story that we have. The CI CD part. It's built on Argo and Tecton. And that's just an example of how the upstream projects, we are working with the upstream projects, making sure that the upstream projects are better than we take it, we put our signature wrapper around it, we offer support and then we introduce it to the enterprises and to the developers. And in this, there is a really perfect harmony between working with the open stream, working with the enterprises staying in the middle, making sure that, you know, the transaction goes between both entities in a seamless way. And every single projects too, including RHEL, that we were talking about, you know, we did the Fedora on the upstream or, you know, as we come downstream, it's RHEL. Or all the other products that we offer as a Red Hat portfolio, we are working with open source. And that's the power of collaboration and that's the power of bringing the community into your core development model and engaging. And, you know, for the longest time, we have been the leaders at that, right? And now every other company is realizing that, oh, this is such a good model, you know, be it Confluent, be it Databricks or any other company right now, including Microsoft for a certain extent, you know, they're realizing that this is a winning model and this is how we get everyone to participate and, you know, build the ecosystem, make the ecosystem overall stronger, you know. That's what entices me and, you know, that's what makes our offerings so much more stronger and makes it more aligned with what our customers want and what we give. Ignacio, you mentioned a very good point about, you know, how the whole enterprise world is being modernized and as part of that modernization, people are realizing that, oh, there's no one single entity that works best for everything that we need to do. 2.6 clouds, you know, that's a great data point. I think IDC got that. From that 2.6 data clouds, what are we doing to make sure that the developers get the best multi-cloud development experience? Oh, you also mentioned on-prem and off-prem, what are we doing and how can we improve the developer experience for a hybrid cloud environment? So this is, you know, this is the core at what we are working on from a developer point of view, from a developer tools point of view to make this better. Yeah, a lot to unpack there, Mathun. I wish we had a couple of hours to dig into it, but, you know, one of the key things you talked about there is there's this balancing that companies need to do. Everything's changing, yet one of the hardest things with any change is you had to talk 2.6 clouds. It's the skill set. How do I get the people and how do I ramp up on a cloud? There's certain base things that are similar between the clouds, but if I want to really take advantage of the innovation of the cloud and the ecosystem built around them, there's a lot of work, you know. So, you know, I guess even, you know, Mathun, you know, when I look from a Red Hat standpoint, it's not just, you know, oh, well, rail works everywhere and so therefore we can be in all the clouds. There's deep engineering works. Ignacio talked about some of the activity going on with Amazon. We've been working with Azure for years. We work across, you know, Alibaba and lots of other clouds. There's base things that make it, you know, kind of minimal viable, but then there's real engineering work that happens. As companies look out there, you know, developers tend to build, you know, here's my developer tool chain. And when I have a tool, you know, they want to clamp onto it and say, you know, this, you know, I love this. And it's funny. I remember a few years back, you know, interviewing a guy and he's like, oh, you know, I've got my, you know, it happened to be like Terraform is like my life. It's like my number one thing. I can't go anywhere without it. I've used it forever. And I was like, cool, how long have you been doing that? And he was like, it's been 18 months and I've used it. And it was like, oh my God, you know, those of us, it's like, okay, you know, I remember when Excel came out and, you know, you learned and got trained on that because of the previous spreadsheets. So that balance of I want consistency, but I need to take advantage of new environments. That's one of the things that, you know, from a Red Hat standpoint, we try to give you that with our platforms. But, you know, how did the, Mithun, what are you seeing in the customer things? What are we doing to help that environment to keep up? You know, a line I've used is, you know, our customers today on their applications, on their infrastructure and on their tooling, they're hybrid. And when I look forward three to five years, they're going to be even more hybrid. So, you know, what are you seeing and how are we helping to, you know, address that and work and partner with our customers on it? Yeah. There are two dimensions to this question, right? One, the first dimension is meeting where the developers are at the tool chain. Look, we don't say like we just offer Eclipse and Che and come work with us and that's it, right? We, one of our most popular plugins is VS Code. You know, we have tens of millions of downloads on the VS Code plugin for OpenShift that we have developed and it's very, very popular. We also have our own code ready suite of tools that we offer, which is also very popular and used by a different set of customers. But the point is, you know, let's meet the developers where they are, you know? Like you mentioned, some of these things are very relevant to developers. They are very, they adhere to one set and then unless you showcase and tell them, hey, there's a better way, there's an easier way, there's a faster way to do this. And when you can show them, you know, you can win the developers over. But at the end of the day, it is about making the developer productive. Again, this is why it comes, the empathy piece comes up and you know, you need to ensure that the developers stay productive and stay effective in doing that job. The second part of this answer is, you know, the programs, right, as we are launching as technology is evolving so rapidly in the developer space, we need to make sure that the developer education, so to speak, you know, the awareness of it becomes super simple, right? How, so this is where our advocates play a fantastic role. This is where a big part of our team that's led by Ignacio plays a fantastic role in getting information about blogs, through blogs, getting information through hands-on tutorials, having instructor-led labs. You know, we have so many varieties and you know, over six to eight million developers come to the developer website every single year. How do we keep them productive? How do we again, you know, make sure that the content that we are developing is targeted at those developers, you know, and make it so simple that they can understand and get started. And the programs that we build around that to get the developers educated on all the latest offerings that we have and others in the industry have, you know, all of these things play a vital role. The developer education and the developer sort of tools go hand-in-hand, they're two sides of the same coin. I don't know if you want to add anything else that ignores you. Yeah, the only thing that I would add is, if I try to summarize also what are the needs, the challenges. Okay, so you have basically three type of big buckets when you talk to developers. That is, there are some developers that work in hybrid cloud infrastructure. So they need to build their foundation for the future. They know that they need to move part of the processes into the cloud, but they don't still are sure about what they need to move into the cloud, why they need to move into the cloud, the advantages, et cetera. So you need to explain then why it's important for them to keep what they are doing, but also starting to think about what they can do on top of that on the cloud. Then they have, you have the second type of developers that are those developers that are because they are new. They don't have any on-premise. They are cloud native development. So for them, you just need to explain how to accelerate, how to do application development in cloud-only environment, how to do innovation, how to do delivery. So those are the core cloud native developers that they don't need to know anything. For example, a lot of startups, they are just starting with cloud environments. And then the third type of problems that we are trying to solve is the automation and management. You have a number of developers that normally they are in the DevOps area that they need to manage automation. They need to manage, they need to make repetitive process and they need to manage how the other two departments are managing. They need to ensure stability. They need to ensure security. They have other needs. So you need to create and hear the good parties. At Red Hat, we have a very good portfolio to address those kind of three big buckets of problems. We start with the on-premise environment with Red Hat Enterprise Linux and then you have a whole portfolio of different products. And probably this is one of the biggest challenges that we have any technology company. You launch products and more products and more products, you launch and I always make the comparison if you let me to make a bit more of a personal comparison. I always say that we talk about our babies so the engineering is the father of a baby that they went to launch into the market. And when I have that, I always say, okay, I need to explain, yeah, your baby is great, congratulations. I need to explain why we are creating this baby. What is the business problem that this baby is going to solve and how that baby connect with other babies, the rest of the babies that we have also in the company. Because if not, yes, your baby is absolutely great but nobody will understand how that baby fits in the rest of the family. So creating that environment or how that new baby have that new feature, have that new capability is fitting in the overall portfolio is absolutely critical of if not developers, they just cannot follow you. So that's our key job here at Red Hat in charge of the developer program is to ensure that whatever we launch, we explain clearly how, why we are launching it, how that launch is fitting in the rest of the portfolio and what is the problem that developers, why the developers need to learn about that technology and what is the problem that they are going to solve. Yeah, you know, so many good things there also to talk about, you know, one of the things I like one of the core strengths that, you know, as Methune, as you said, everything we do at Red Hat is built of open source. So most of the things we're working on were a project that Red Hat got involved with. Every once in a while, there's something that we start, but when you've got another project that we participate in, you've got usually a built-in community that's rallying around and had that problem to start with. So I've been part of some organizations where, hey, engineering came up with a cool idea and we bounced around it internal and like we can build this, but you know, how do you have that market product fit as opposed to we're usually a little bit more mature, but Ignacio, as you said, there's always new things coming out, you know, the balance out there is to, you know, oh my gosh, you know, I start going down a path and oh, wait, there's some new thing that might be better. You need to be able to continue down your path and hopefully you can extend and expand to some of the new technologies, you know, heck even, you know, watching today, we've got so much going on in our ecosystem, you know, the latest, you know, serverless technology just hit like 1.0 for OpenShift built off of Knative. So it's like, you know, great to hear, you know, the maturation and always new things and it's the extensible, you know, APIs and everything that we do, so that hopefully, you know, the path that you go down, you know, Ignacio, your friends at Amazon say, there's the one way and two way doors that you choose from an architectural standpoint. Most of these environments, we don't wanna send you down a path where you can't add and extend the new pieces on. All right, so we've had a great conversation here. I guess what I wanna do to kind of wrap up is I heard a little bit about some of your personal philosophies why you came to Red Hat, you know, when people, you know, come here and whether they're looking to, you know, potentially we have a job opening, you know, on jobs.redhat.com, we have lots of positions, you know, all three of us often have, you know, positions we're hiring for or we're partnering, you know, what are the things you're looking at, you know, those things that drive the relationships of people we wanna join our team and people we partner with out there? Mathun? You know, for me, honestly, the best part, it's 10 months now since I joined Red Hat, more or less the same for years. You know, one of the things I appreciate so much at Red Hat is the culture that we have, right? It's the culture of belonging, it's the culture of collaborating, it's the culture of openness that drives everything that we do at Red Hat. And it's been really fantastic. I'm loving every minute that I've been here and you know, I will be here for a long time. So that culture is a very, very big piece, you know, for me then I'm looking to hire people. You bring the right people in and you know, the right people will help you take you to the next level. And the right people is how you can gel well, whether they have the right skills, whether they have the right attitude and whether they have the right temperament to work with you, you know. So it's part skills, part attitude, part temperament. That's how I look for when I'm hiring. Yeah, and yes, we have a lot of openings within the developer BU. Stu, I know you're hiring as well. So you have, I think two or three positions open on the marketing side. And yeah, we are looking for, you know, product managers. We are in the developer BU. We are looking for product managers. We are looking for marketing folks. We are looking for documentation. You know, there are 56 marketing roles that are open as we are transforming our entire suite. So a lot of good things happening. So head out to jalshotredhat.com and see, you know, what roles we have open. And if there's a connection that any three of us can make I'm talking on behalf of all of you, we'd be happy to connect and help you guys. Absolutely. Ignacio, your final closing words? Yeah, a bit of the same. For me, what that really attract is the culture. It's a very special culture. When you joined the company and probably, I don't know if you have already talked in previous about the memo list. The memo list is, I think that this is a perfect example of that open culture. At least I have never, never, ever been in a company where only the CEO was the one sending emails to the whole company. Here, anyone can send an email to the whole company. And I was like, wow, you can basically say whatever you want, that's good and that's bad. I mean, it's good because you hear a lot of opinions and I haven't been in a culture with more openness than that, never ever. I mean, the thing is that you need to manage that flow of thousands of opinions. But I think that that is deeply in depth with the open source culture. That is, you have a community where everyone is equal. And the company is very much like that. You have a community. It's true that there are a lot of roles and there are a lot of layers, but everyone is equally important and they play their part in the company. So I think that a lot of those values of open source translated into our company is what probably is absolutely unique about Red Hat. Yeah, Ignacio, just to echo what you were saying, the comment that I made having, I've worked with Red Hat a long time. I've worked with the cloud group for about eight years, but I first interacted. I was the product manager for Linux at a storage company two decades ago, back around the time that Red Hat was creating RHEL. And what I'd say is on the inside, Red Hat is even more Red Hat on the inside than what you see on the outside. If you mentioned the memo list, I'll mention for our audience out there, if you go watch, there's a TED Talk that our former CEO Jim Whitehurst did talking about how a junior engineer speaks up and he was like, oh my God, we're gonna fire that guy because he disagreed with our whole strategic direction. And it was like, no, everybody's like, hey, thank you. We didn't necessarily change our direction based on it, but you were encouraged and it's part of our job to speak up and let's make sure we get everybody's opinion. So I've seen even when we have interns come in, we want them fully participating, not just doing grunt work. And we've hired people through that process because we know especially the space where you live, developers, the new people with less experience often don't have preconceptions that those of us with a little more experience has. So balancing that knowledge, that experience, the new all comes in and that's kind of a unique culture that we have here at Red Hat. So I wanna thank you both, Ignacio and Methune. Thank you so much for joining us. Definitely, as Methune said, please reach out to any of us. We're easy to find out there. I'm so easy. If you hit me up on Twitter, I'm just at Stu. I'm on LinkedIn. I'll even share here my email if you just stewatredhat.com is really easy to get in touch with me. We've got lots of great episodes. I've got two more episodes here and before the end of the year in the 2021 and looking out at the editorial agenda for 2022. Our teams will be at many of the events virtually and starting to come back in person. So please reach out. Let us know what you'd like to see on the program. Any feedback you have for any of us, share the job postings that are out there. And until next time, I'm Stu Miniman and I wanna thank you for joining us in the clouds. Thank you all. Thank you.