 Good afternoon. Thank you all for being here. We are really absolutely delighted today to have as our guest Harlema Motlante, the former president of South Africa. Before I introduce you, let me say a few words for those of you who don't know about the U.S. Institute of Peace. The U.S. Institute of Peace is a congressionally created organization dedicated to the prevention and the mitigation and the overcoming of conflict. The institution works around the world in places like Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Central African Republic, Nigeria and a lot of other places. Working with the communities of activists and peace activists around the world, training, bringing solutions, working together, trying to overcome the problems of conflict and to prevent conflict from breaking out. So we're very glad you're here with us today. And as I said, we are very pleased and very honored to have our guest today. Harlema Motlante, the former president of South Africa, was a very early activist in the fight against apartheid. He was a student activist. He was a trade unionist. He was a member of the ANC's military wing during that period, and he paid a price. He was arrested in 1976 and kept in detention for 11 months. And then in 1977, he was found guilty of three crimes under the Terrorism Act and sentenced to 10 years in prison on Robin Island, along with Nelson Mandel and many other leaders of the anti-apartheid movement. After his release from Robin Island from 1977-1987, I'm sorry, from after his release, he was elected Secretary General of the National Union of Mine Workers. Many of you know, it was one of the premier black unions in South Africa, and he was elected Secretary General of the ANC in 1997. Between September 25th, 2008 and May 9th, 2009, he was president of South Africa. And then after the end of his presidency, he became deputy president, and he served in that position until May 2014. Currently, he is chairman of the Lillie Sleef Trust, as well as the Halema Montlante Foundation. I'll say a word about the Lillie Sleef Trust because it is an organization which has preserved the documents and the history of the anti-apartheid movement and has brought that history to new generations in South Africa to visitors from around the world. I had the pleasure of attending a very fine conference there just a year ago, and it's really quite an important organization in South Africa. As president, today, South Africa is currently undergoing both a political and an economic crisis. There is much speculation about where it's heading, and this is in one of the world's strongest democracies. So we are particularly pleased to have you here. President Montlante is now today recognized as one of the most important, most moral, most intelligent intellectuals and political leaders in the country. It's a great honor for us to have you with us, and I don't know, but one moment, I want to introduce your wife, Gugu Shlali, who is also with the Halema Montlante Foundation. Thank you for being here with us. Mr. President. Thank you very much, Ambassador Princeton Lyman, for your warm words of welcome. Ambassador Johnny Carson, Ambassador George Goose, Pauline and Stephen, Tom. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for the opportunity to address you this afternoon. It is a great honor and a privilege to be in such a esteemed company, and among those for whom South Africa and Africa is a place of keen interest and studied observance. No doubt, many of you are experts on matters relating to South Africa and are therefore cognizant of the country's sociopolitics, history, current affairs, and its place in the continent of Africa. I take this expertise into account as I briefly address you today on the prevailing issues in my country and the governing party, that is the African National Congress, that have bearing on South Africa's position on the continent and within wider international affairs. These are issues about which there have been increasing vocality, given the present leadership crisis that casts a shadow over our country. It is meaningful that we find ourselves at the United States Institute for Peace, as the values represented by this non-partisan independent institution converge with the democratic aims of South Africa that are enshrined in our constitution. This institute and those who labor under its injunction, like those of us who have chosen a life of public service, understand that we are always in service of the people and our government and our countries, and as such have been entrusted with a significant task that should not be taken lightly nor transgressed. Promotion of peace, both internal and external, is at the heart of democratic ideals. In fact, peace is a precondition for any development. In the early 1990s, the peaceful attainment of democracy in our transitioning country seemed elusive at best and impossible at worst. It was considered doubtful that we would achieve a transition without bloodshed and civil war. However, democracy was realized without much of the doomed days, prophecies coming to pass. As such, those who hold high levels of trust, public office and power of various kinds, and have a moral and ethical obligation to ensure that we remain in fidelity to our hard-worn democracy. It is no secret that some among those entrusted with leadership within our present government appear to be focused on vested interests and the welfare of the nation. As such, they need to be and held accountable under the demands of our legal system and in accordance with the codes of morality and ethics that underscore public office. Many key public figures and powerful institutions, such as the late Ahmed Kathrada and the foundation that bears his name, and the Nelson Mandela Foundation, as well as public intellectuals have spoken out against the culture of venality in the public sphere. Such acts of speaking truth to power are evidence of democracy at work. Those who are concerned about current South African affairs should note that there are strong checks and balances to ensure accountability. Whether through the separation of powers, our firm legal system, or our Constitution and Bill of Rights, there are institutions and systems in place to preserve our democracy and address present socioeconomic and historical challenges as we strive to realize a united, democratic, non-racial, non-sexist, just and prosperous nation. In considering this, however, one cannot ignore recent events which have given many anxieties about our economy going forward, which include shifts in our cabinet and a downgrade to junk status by investment agencies. Investors need to know that South Africa remains a stable and predictable investment outlet even during fluid and uncertain political times as proven by its efficacious response to the 2008 world economic crisis. I say this cognizant of the fact that, like many countries in the developing South, we need to prove our worth on a number of socioeconomic indicators, such as political stability, cultivating an investment-friendly environment, greening the economy, transparency, predictability as well as firm macroeconomic policies. The current state of affairs is survivable, and it is unlikely that we will slide into a state that is beyond redress. The final contours of South Africa's future are rooted in our present, post-apathetic efforts. Much else will depend on how successful we are in this construction of a new reality. Primarily, senior leaders within the party should take heed of public criticism. Necessarily, this includes holding the leadership to the highest possible ethical standards. The only sides of protection that require active attention are the people who have entrusted us with power in the Democratic Republic that we seek to preserve. And to that end, in doing this, we should take heed of the words of President Nelson Mandela, who emphatically stated, and I quote, the truth is that we are not yet free. We have merely achieved the freedom to be free, the right not to be oppressed. We have not taken the final step of our journey, but the first step on a longer and even more difficult road. The true test of our devotion to freedom is just beginning. Close quote. And with those words, I want to thank you for your attention. I hope we will have an interactive session willing to field questions. I thought that I should be very brief in order to allow you more time to ask me questions about matters that are of more interest. Otherwise, I would have brought you to death with details of how remarkable South Africa is. But I would rather hear from you so that I can respond directly to your questions. Thank you very much for your attention. Thank you very much, President Manali. And thank you for your remarks, because they were very, very important. Let me take the liberty of asking the first question of your mind. And the question, let me put it bluntly, what happened to the AMC? I had the privilege of being in South Africa, as you know, during the years of 92 to 95. Therefore, the magnificent transition, the emotion of the voting in 94, the first year of Nelson Mandela's presidency. And there were skeptics. There were people like R. W. Johnson and others who said, yeah, but the AMC will soon fall into a pattern of corruption, et cetera. Don't have your hopes up. And I was one of those who argued, no, it wouldn't happen because there was a great deal of principle behind the AMC. And it showed up in the constitution that was developed, which is one of the strongest democratic constitutions anywhere. But something did happen over the years. My own view is that it started even with the arm seal that happened. But over time, the AMC fell into pattern, some corruption, then protecting itself from transparency and accountability. And the reason I asked the question about what's happened to it over time is, is it possible even then to regenerate it to come back to that spirit? Well, thank you very much, Ambassador, for your question. Two years, the AMC was an organization which pursued the struggle against apartheid system based on racial discrimination. And so those of, and for 82 years, it did that as a legal organization in South Africa. But in 1960, in the wake of the Shabville massacre, it was banned together with the Pan-Africanist Congress. And so in the words of Nelson Mandela at that time, 1960, when it was banned, he said, there comes a time in the life of every nation when the choice is either to submit or to fight, and that the African people choose to fight. And so the new structures to be established function underground as illicit structures. And Lili's leave was the place of safety where the leaders had to work out how to respond to the fact that the authorities were now treating the AMC as a prescribed organization. And the people who for 30 years from 1960 to 1991 joined the AMC's struggle, expected no other form of reward other than the elimination of apartheid as an obnoxious system. And so these are men and women who were, again, in the words of Nelson Mandela at the Rivonia trial, were prepared, if needs be, to die for freedom. Now post 1994, when now the AMC became a governing party, many other people joined the AMC. The old hands in the AMC were now in charge of government and therefore in a position to dispense with you know, creative contracts and so on. And so we had reached a different time altogether. And by maintaining the AMC as a liberation organization, we fell prey to the temptations of power. I think one of the greatest sayings and quotes is from Benjamin Franklin, I think, who said nearly all men can withstand adversity. But if you want to know a man's true character, give him power. And so we ended up with power in our hands and as they say, power corrupts. An absolute power corrupts absolutely. So we noticed that as early as the year 2000, we did an appraisal of the AMC and came to a conclusion that even as the AMC was leading the process of transformation in South Africa, it was itself being transformed in a manner that it had no control over. Because power and the authority to dispense with and to adjudicate over contracts and so on meant that very few of our people were prepared by the history of struggle and sacrifice to know how to deal with gifts because the front line soldiers of corruption are gifts, actually. That's when Republic servant and you know, you are exposed to certain information. And that information, if it is used for any other means other than what it is meant for, that's the beginning of corruption. And so someone might come and, you know, leave free tickets for a rugby match or a football match without asking for any favor. In return. And so with time, one day that same person would be at the back of a long queue and all they have to do is to greet you, you know, but remember the one who left the... And therein lies the roti, you see. So once you don't have the experience and training of people who serve the public service on how to deal with gifts, what to do, what should be their attitude. They are likely to be corrupted in the process here. And can it regenerate itself? That's a moot question that's been debated now in the country that there's need for renewal. In fact, in 2000, when we did the self appraisal, we came to the same conclusion that we need the renewal of the organization. But, you know, it's very difficult when you are having to do that to yourselves without really, you know, going through a surgical overhaul because the tendency is to try and preserve as much as, you know, you... You know, detains because remember the struggle itself has happened in the past. But so you tend to look backwards because your glorious efforts are in the past whereas one of our poets, Professor Kiorapet Khozitili, has a lovely poem and in it it is a line where he writes the words past, present, future as one word. And he says, past, present, future is always now. So it's very difficult. You can't separate the past completely from the present and you can't focus in the past if you are to create the future. So past, present, future is always now. It means that the past will continually cast its shadow on the present but that the present must always be alive to the need to lay down a solid foundation for the future. So as a liberation movement, the tendency would be to romanticize and notify the past so you look backwards. And with time you completely lose connection. Your language, your vocabulary belongs to the past and younger people cannot relate to that. And so if you get disconnected from the younger generation then there's no tomorrow, there's no future. So the need for renewal of the organization is there but whether it can happen in a managed fashion and or it's something that must be instilled by the privilege to be in opposition's benches because as a governing party you develop certain mannerisms. I mean right now in South Africa, which was a noble project of understanding that our task is to unite South Africans and to deepen democracy, do it in a non-racial fashion in a non-sexist manner. That task now has been pushed to the bed-burner because the narrative nationally is that we alone liberated you and so you have no right to hold any view on any matter. Yours is to listen and to hear from us, we know what's good for you. And that narrative undermines the effort of uniting South Africans. So the old fault lines that divided us in the past are now gaining prominence. So I know it's a long-winded answer to a very simple question of whether renewal is possible or not. So I'm saying we've been aware of the need for it from 2000 and even now we're still tweaking the formulations that we came up with in 2000. And so last year we lost a number of important metropolitan municipalities in local government elections and that in a sense jolted us to try and be a bit more sincere about the need to renew ourselves. But even that doesn't seem to, because once in the wake of such a defeat it becomes urgent, but with time we fall back to the same old routine and groove of how we know how to exist here. Let me ask one other question that I'm going to open it up because it relates a little bit to this, but to something else. As you know and you've mentioned this before, the young people who are voting who will vote in the next election were not there and that's history to them. Some it's important history, but some it's not their history. And their attitudes might be very different, but and you can't obviously it's hard to generalize about a whole generation of young people, but you've got it seems to me a cadre that has had good education etc in the universities. They have a large cadre who have not and their unemployment. Where do they fit in the political system? Are they engaged? Are they more sympathetic to the economic freedom fighters? Are they apathetic? Are they still looking to where and are the parties really able to engage and reach this young generation? Well the economic freedom fighters call us bait us bait. They let sophistry and so you know if they have a concern they state it for what it is. And that finds lots of resonance among young people, particularly those young people who are at university level who are now reading France for non-sweats and so on. And so they actually believe that you know the settlement that led to a peaceful resolution of the problem of apartheid was a solout deal. And it's a completely a historical approach because the liberation movement fought a struggle for liberation and in relays the baiting should be passed on to the younger generation you know to take things forward. But if a relay the baiting is not passed on to the next athlete that team will lose of course. You see so and so there's no sentimental attachment to the history and that makes it this much more difficult for as I said even the vocabulary even the language that we use they you see it's a language that it's not that we are not familiar with and because we are not creating the space for them as younger people we were young and our hearts were full of fire it was the older leaders who gave us responsibility that's how they trained us and you can't expect young people to behave responsibly unless you give them responsibility so that's what's happening to us and that's hence the disconnect between ourselves and the younger generation. Well I could ask a lot more questions. We have a nice very educated audience and I will ask you please to identify yourself and tip it to a question so we can get to everybody and start with the gentleman there and then I'll go to the lady there and then the other Do we have someone with the mic? Yes we do thank you. Two brief questions. Nicholas Cook at the Congressional Research Service. So first you recently said that the the ANCMPs are not hirelings of the leadership and of the party and that they have the full constitutional to write to vote their conscience under the ANC Constitution but as we know this government plays hardball and expedient politics and the possibility of retribution or loss of those MP seats is a reality. So I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the pros and cons of a secret vote in the no confidence issue and then one other quick question. The radical economic transformation is a policy of the ANC but there are of course various interpretations of that and I'm wondering how you would distinguish between the radical economic transformation that Minister Gigaba the new finance minister might pursue as compared to that that Sabisi Jonas and Pravin Gordon might have followed. Thank you. That's two very questions. All right. Yes Nicholas you know our electoral system is based on proportional representation so it is not individuals who contest elections but parties and so once the party has sworn a number of seats it follows its own internal processes of compiling a list of people who must then occupy those seats in the legislature. So as public representatives MPs do take an oath. Oath says they will follow the constitution of the republic but they are sent there by parties and the constitution of these parties I know this from the ANC side are not aligned to the constitution of the republic as a supreme law of the country so you send members out they take an oath but you govern them in terms of your own constitution which is not aligned to the constitution of the republic therein lies a misalignment then you see when when president is being elected it's by secret ballot and when the speaker of the national assembly is elected it's by secret ballot and when you are electing someone you know you do so as happy campers we might as well do it by show of end but it's by secret ballot and yet a vote of no confidence and impeachment procedures constitution is silent on that aspect but of course the rules of parliament do give the speaker the discretion to decide on those matters but the speaker now currently is opposing an application by opposition parties for the vote of no confidence to be dealt with by secret ballot and the president has joined that you know action by the speaker in opposition to that now even if the ANC were to say let this be by secret ballot nothing stops the ANC from speaking to its own members of parliament and persuading them to vote in whatever manner they decide nothing but to actually take a stance where you oppose secret ballot firstly you convey the message that you have no confidence in your own members so you know you you convey a message that you are gripped by fear and and and that dents the prestige of the party in the eyes of ordinary people that matter is subjudicare it's before the courts the courts are still to make a determination as to whether they remind the speaker that yes you do have the discretion please speaker honorable speaker take a stand on this matter so the vote of confidence has been postponed until the courts make a determination on that matter the anticipation is that the courts will make a determination the next week or two yes and and then that whichever way that goes the matter will be attended to in that fashion the radical economic transformation if you go through the policy resolutions and documents of the ANC to date you will not find that term in those documents it's not there it's a term that's being used because there's been a a report by the public protector the previous public protector is Tuli Madonsela advocate Madonsela which refers to state capture and it's really about contracts of parastatals and so on and how those are allocated to people without due process so create a counter narrative this notion of radical economic transformation has now been thrown into national discourse and essentially when you you know dig deep eyes to what is meant by that because it's coupled with another notion of white monopoly capitalism so people are involved in obtaining opportunities through means that are not quite lawful don't bother that's small matters focus on the big matters of how the economies monopolized by whites there's a logic in some there's some logic in that madness but that's what it is here but if you go through the policy documents the resolutions of conferences you will not find lady right here South Africa your motivation first of all to get freedom was totally different and you are in a kind of transition state to obtain self-organization for prosperity i'm pretty sure they will achieve a target but it will take a time and to make your country competitive with whole word but what i'm interested that you are such a fantastic huge continent why don't you create one international organization for the peace guarantee because so many wars in africa and it's and it's and it's sad this conscience should be born and if i could add to that this presence recently the south africa hasn't played as a stronger role in the africa union as it did some years ago so in relationship to not only continent-wide effort on peace where did south africa's role on the continent and where should it be going firstly the continent is organized as the african union and the african union itself is divided into regional economic communities so you will find a cross in the northwest and you find east african economic community in the east and find central african economic community which has members struggling between the east and central then you have sadek in the south these are economic regional economic communities and and the idea is that you know they should serve as building blocks in terms of creating interconnectivity among you know the region the regional member states and trying to promote intra trade originally in that fashion the all of this is hampered by under development of infrastructure the road infrastructure the rail infrastructure it still takes an inordinate amount of time for goods and people to go across borders on the continent of africa in terms of the au principles firstly it was agreed that no person or group of persons who assume power over any country outside of democratic means would be recognized so that that that had the effect of reducing coup d'etats in africa but of course in the still cases where a coup d'etat is staged and and the soldiers doff their uniforms and their leader wears a pinstripe suit and calls a shem election and the soldiers go and line up everybody to vote for the leader and then you have you know those who firstly were involved in organizing a coup now becoming legitimized through shem elections the au from time to time in certain areas does pull together peacekeeping units which work and in love with the un peacekeepers so that's that's what the au does there is even an african peer review mechanism where sister countries where you know assess each other quite rigorously and honestly so the african peer review mechanism works fairly fairly well but of course the problem is that the the leaders of such you know countries that have been so assessed can ignore the report can file it as a good report and simply do nothing about it there is no enforcement mechanism of the recommendations of the african peer review committees yes it has to improve it also calls for commitment by member states and acceptance of the recommendations oh okay thank you i'm mr president it's really an honor to meet you well to see you today and thank you so much for coming i'd like to follow up on the oh sorry my name is lisa gomer i'm former united nations in usa id um and i wanted to follow up on the question that you started with about what happened to the a and c i i want to look at what's happening to the a and c right now i find it very disturbing that there's a series of the corruption is very much out in the open you had the municipal elections which you referred to last year which was a huge blow you have the whole trying to block the special prosecutors or protectors report um you have casato communist party denouncing the current administration and people in the streets of all colors and members of south africa and yet the a and c executive committee or i'm not sure exactly who are responsible are paralyzed i that's what i want to understand because there have to be people like you who care about the credibility of democracy in your country in the future um so that's my one question and the follow with that is next year are presidential elections do you think that there will be true democracy and a real election next year thank you 2019 in south africa the election next elections are in 2019 i'm sorry 19 yes okay okay the biggest challenge facing the a and c now is that the elected structures of leadership the a and c structured from national provincial regional and at local level branch and each one of those structures at branch level that's where every member has a right to participate in the political life of the organization and so in a member's general meeting they elect a branch executive committee so the from branch executive committees regional executive committees provincial executive committees to the national executive committee these are structures of elected leadership which were elected to coordinate and lead the activities of the general membership which is the organization but what has happened is over the years uh these elected structures of leadership have substituted themselves for the general organization so at branch level uh general members meetings are never convenient so each time there's a an internal process the people who are likely to participate starts from the branch executive upwards now that has the effect of paralyzing the organization because uh the just by exclusion basically except when there is a conference then people can be handpicked on the basis basis of allegiance and support uh so the vibrancy of the organization uh is gone because it really uh was a function of the ideas and inputs of members now it's confined to leaders to the exclusion of members and this is what paralyzes the a and c uh at a local level you may have a community which has concerns about services and there's a branch of the a and c in that community and and the a and c will not know until uh it sees on television that there are members you know and the members of the a and c will be participating there uh so it's it's a it's a situation whereby generally speaking the people of South Africa will not wait for the a and c to come back they they will move on even as the a and c is increasingly looking in what's and and being you know preoccupied with internal issues South Africans are moving forward by the time the a and c opens up it may be too late uh you know and the election well the the elections uh we have a an independent electoral commission which is too independent and completely incorruptible so elections are organized and conducted in a very transparent manner because from each voting station each party that is contesting elections would have party representatives there so they can count for themselves they are there when the count is done and and they can collate and and tally their own uh vote so it's very difficult for i i didn't mean that i meant for the a and c will put up as their candidate is it going to be just a continuation i'm saying or is it going to be at that point do you think there's a chance at that i see okay to make a real change so that don't you start so to speak okay but that's a very important issue well the a and c is always is due to convene its elective conference at the end of this year in December of this year where the leadership of the a and c would be elected all we are praying for is you know it should be an honest group of people that's all yeah we're very happy there's a someone at the very back row there okay and then i'll try and get as many as as i can good afternoon good afternoon my name is julian kyle lewis i study international education policy at the american university here in dc um my question is uh due to our recent presidential election here in the united states we have president trump now and um he's a big champion of uh switching around some of our trade agreements and trade relations and things of that nature being uh the the businessman that he has proven himself to be and um my question for you is uh what do you think about um the big conferences and power meetings that have been taking place after this president's election where they're inviting uh trade leaders and representatives from every nation around the world accept leaders from the nations in africa to discuss the trade that will go on inside of africa thank you very much what was called nepat as a as a basis for africa's approach of negotiating the terms of trade with european countries as well as the united states of america but you know the continent is together politically and and because of mainly underdeveloped infrastructure which connects countries across the continent because for many centuries the continent was used for extraction of raw material so if you look at the rail infrastructure in the continent it is from source to port source to port and there's never any you know interconnectivity there that makes it difficult even today because those infrastructure that kind of infrastructure uh remains underdeveloped a few years ago the au agreed to focus primarily on that challenge of creating interconnectivity in terms of infrastructure but you know the au is headed by heads of states and governments so in that summit when they are to select projects each president you know thinks of a pet project and and so they're still poor planning because they plan without data so they're still poor planning at that level which only hand pass you know the efforts of creating the conditions for intra trade in the continent the population of the continent is plus one billion people and it's a huge market if looked at together but you know the both the au and and and the regional economic community communities i've alluded to also enter into bilateral trade agreements individually the the republic of china people's republic of china go to a country like angola and and when it is faced by uh the challenge of repairing the infrastructure following the civil war so that three rail lines that needed to be rehabilitated so the chinese government goes there uh with two billion us dollars uh in the back and they ask them how can we be of help to you so the angolians agree that you would love to have these three rail lines rehabilitated and and they tick off so the chinese say wonderful we'll do that for you but what the chinese insist on is that they will provide 70 percent of the labor and the angolians should provide the remaining 30 percent of labor in that whole project and and they then because they are in charge so they they use the platoon system platoon system means that they do three continuous operation shifts so so they work 24 hours on a project and the angolians are not used to working like that they are used to a normal shift you know eight eight hour working day and you are off huh so so the the 30 percent desert and the chinese don't complain they just replace them with more chinese that's that's the plight of you know in other words i'm using this example to show you how skewed you know balance or forces really is there so so the angolians end up accepting and and they go out into the provinces to create infrastructure and more housing for you know the war displays these people who left their villages so they go back there's an infrastructure but of course the chinese open the trading stores and everything that's that's what happens to this side gentlemen the yellow jacket yellowish jacket and while he and while he much as a male and i'm alumni of the usip maybe a little louder it's hard to hear i don't know if it's on or not you can use this while he much as a male usip alumni democracy from war to peace also i'd like to thank you mr president for your honesty and being very incanded my question is about the ideal of transformation uh specifically in the area of the aic and it is a possibility it's a field that i've been working in for over 30 years specifically in the area of melasia working with the former prime minister of melasia dr martyre so i'd like to speak with optimism and it is a probability also like to speak with terms of research uh there's a gentleman did his dissertation on assessment and evaluation of reconciliation over the last 20 years of all reconciliations that have been done in the world and looking at the various uh areas of what has happened from donor organizations if we look at financing administration security and training what has happened in those various codes and categories there's been zero in terms of donor organizations in the last 20 years and all reconciliations around the world in terms of focusing on training people who come out of reconciliation to train to transform what they've been living for the last what we call past base conversations for the last 30 years they've done nothing in terms of investment so when you go to the table and become a new future-based conversations you still have those same ways it means those same ways of thinking those same ways of being when you go to the new future-based conversation you're the same people that you've been for the last 40 years and so we do have excuse me sir yeah excuse me sir i'm making a point here yeah and the point is you're gonna get my question ambassador and the question is that if there's a willingness for a request we have people such as the transformation leadership council they've been doing this work for 40 years around the world this is where dr martyre and president mendella came on a prison the south-south relationship which you are aware of he was the father of development because of what he was able to accomplish because he requested members from the transformation leadership council to come and help that nation transform itself and the question is that if there's a willingness for the request yes the leaders the a and c the nation can learn how to transform itself from what it may have been doing for the last 40 years but there has to be a request to say i want to learn i want to learn so that's the question is that if you want to learn how to be a different type of visionary leader you can do that but there must be a request i want to learn how to be different in the 21st century we got it we got the question so in terms of the chinese excuse me i'm sorry we really got we got a lot of people want to talk so let's go to that question and then the question is a forced development when it came to malaysia it was a 51 percent i'm awfully sorry but we really have to let him answer and move on to other questions please please sir thank you sorry well thank you very much well i couldn't agree more with you that uh if if you know what you don't know you ask so there must be a request on that basis but firstly you must know what you don't know the concede you see concede leads to complacency and when when when you have you know a leader like Mahathir was able to introduce Pumat Putra system because he was aware of you know the limitations of the malaysian people he i recall set as a target 30% he said he would want the economy of malaysia 30% of it to be owned by malaysian nationals and then you know set processes in motion to towards the attainment of that target at the time of his retirement he berated malaysian people because he said they make no difference between money and assets and that their love for money made them get rid of assets very easily because he he he made a determination that at that point they had only reached the target of 19 instead of 30 and and he expressed deep disappointment at that time but i couldn't agree more with you about you know the need to request for you know assistance in terms of transformation let me ask you if i can the problem you raised before that that agitates some parts of the of the population and that is that there still is a feeling that that you have white capitalism that the majority population is still there's a great come divide and there's an ownership divide and whether you call it radical transformation or other thing what what have been the obstacles education what is it policy that more hasn't been accomplished in changing that dynamic because it seems to be driving at least some of the unhappiness and unrest in the performance of the government since 1994 well one of the biggest weaknesses in South Africa which does not exist anywhere else on the African continent is that in South Africa there was a law passed in 1913 called the native land act which excluded Africans from holding title deeds for any piece of property they were given worthless certificates called permission to occupy which did not serve as commercial instruments you couldn't use them you know as an asset and so on so that still remains the problem up to this day and that is why there's a growing for land to be retained to the people but of course the general discourse around that issue is also you know befuddled by the fact that people want to use history for that and and and when you claim pre-colonial land it's very difficult but because you're going to find that Hunter Gander has covered lots of tricks of land so so I happen to to to serve on a on a panel that was established by the speakers forums at the end of 2015 and and one of the issues we're looking at is this issue of land reform distribution redistribution and and tenure of security and and it's very clear to you know because we've called for written submissions we've organized round tables with experts on on this question there are no industrial registers for instance of you know who owns which part of the land but it's very clear that parastatals own lots of land in South Africa and if we are to address it you know properly we need that data it's a method that must be addressed with the data so that we can you know ensure that people get title and because the exclusion or the denial of Africans of you know title deeds meant that they were actually excluded from the main economy of the country now some of the political questions relate to whether title deeds should be issued to households or to individuals where there's a moral question of course because some people say if you give it to an individual and the individual is a gambler it'll gamble it away the family would be hard up but if you give it to a household it means if they are to drill a borehole on that property they must have a consensus everyone must agree to it so so morally these questions arise but it's something that if we think of title deed is a commercial instrument which would enable people to at least have assets that would be the best and most effective way of empowering people there's been attempts at what we call broad black economic empowerment but that's dilution you see what happens is in the first phase there of and it started in the mining industry the the companies would offer equity shares on a discounted basis but it is that funded you see so when when the community prices rise the possibility exists of you know the rights being paid off but once they take a deep that's it they disappear so we've gone through phases of that and and many people aren't happy because anyway the way the system works is that they necessarily will empower a handful of people to the exclusion of the majority and and and so the political questions then arises a consequence of that deal that's the lady at the back there yes right there nuts and bolts question identify yourself please okay arlene i'm from my husband worked for unesco we visited south africa capetown and um i think two-thirds of the population of south africa lives in townships is that correct two-thirds and what i saw in the townships we went through i went on a tour through the townships and lack of electricity and lack of proper sanitation and i couldn't help but think to move forward these townships have to be addressed first in the country i mean if that's where two-thirds of the population lives is in townships and um my question is why can't we south africa build the same types of apartment community dwellings as they do in china china does it so well i know in africa land is a big thing but what i saw with the land was barefoot children running around areas of ravines with trash and electricity that was stolen from other electricity and other buildings and it just if they was electricity and i just felt like why isn't this being addressed these people have been living like this for decades and decades and why isn't that being addressed i mean what now today that could change yeah well south africa is made up of two countries in the same within the same borders where the townships were essentially labor camps i don't know if you know about the past system there was influx control laws which essentially forced people to only live in the townships uh for as long as they are you know employed by specific companies and so on so post 1994 the education system has now been systematically there were five different systems of education for the africans there's a system called ban to education which was introduced in 1954 and and and when dr ferwurt introduced it he said it's specific and and they introduced engineered it by taking over teacher training colleges and aiming to produce particular hot and caliber of teachers which would be very poor in mathematics and natural sciences and and the main purpose was that it's a unique system it was a unique system in the world because education is meant to make sure that its products become productive in the economy but this one was specifically aimed at ensuring that its products would not be productive in the economy because of her root set there's no point in doing that for the black child black child must only be taught to understand that their place in life will not go beyond certain levels of manual labor now that remains a dead weight today we have not been able from 1994 to do exactly what dr ferwurt did but with the aim of producing better teachers who will produce citizens who will be productive in the economy we haven't been able to do that so electricity has been rolled out across the length and breadth of the country villages and townships are all electrified now water it's potable water is available but there are certain parts that are still lacking where people still draw water from the river where people have no proper sewer system in the township so two countries I'm talking about is that the one part of South Africa has been able to host international events be it conferences or sports events and so on including rugby international rugby tournaments international soccer tournaments and so on so there's infrastructure that is so developed that it compares favorably with first world infrastructure but there's communities who are without a sewer system where I mean I remember going into a school in a well-built school madiba Nelson Mandela raised money and they built this high school in a rural village but because they have no bulk water supply they don't have flushing toilets and so both the teachers and the learners literally have to go into the bush outside the school premises to relieve themselves but this this is the disparity that still exists in South Africa your question is why has that not been addressed firstly we're struggling even with you know urban areas where infrastructure is in place in the municipalities we don't have the right engineers the older engineers would have retired and left so we we have municipalities that are led by you know municipality councils and mayors but with no technical skills to understand the infrastructure and how old it is and how it should be maintained or renewed and replaced at a particular time so the the challenge really of modernizing South Africa that's how I put it by by ensuring that this backward section is provided with infrastructure that matches the infrastructure in the in the urban areas you know before boundary education was introduced in 1954 education in South Africa was the responsibility of missionaries so it's church denominations which provided education in the schools and training of teachers and when boundary education was introduced the missionaries were you know elbowed out of education in the African communities only so in the in the white communities they continued to provide education with the result that today if you go to South Africa the best schools private schools are schools which were missionary schools for white children but those in the African townships were shut down so that's that's that's the story of our life in South Africa and and these are the issues that from time to time give rise to you know protests because precisely because young people feel that you know they deserve to have access to the same infrastructure Mr. President can I if we're going to close it I want to ask about U.S. South Africa relations we have a binational commission and at the binational commission our secretary state and your foreign minister say relations are good but then really not less than cordial in some degree there's not a lot of collaboration there's not a lot of agreement on either regional issues or or broad issues some nasty words traded back and forth it's not the relationship that people anticipated some of it is substantive some of it is not and we're going into this period where there's going to be quite a little political turmoil in South Africa I don't mean physically turmoil but political turmoil what do you see about the this relationship why why isn't why is it not good because it isn't and what can be done which should be done on both parts to construct a more effective relationship well you know relations between countries best served when you have people to people relations to start with so that government to government relations have a solid base where you know people to people people are you know exchanges are happening at that level because if that doesn't happen then you know minor differences can can on on specific matters can stop a major major yes so I know we have a binational with the government of the United States of America and and it is coordinated at the level of the deputy presidents you know when when I served as deputy president we we had a very positive relationship with vice president Joe Biden and and you know we were able to attend to difficult matters and resolve them through discussions and and we ensured that every year we hold a binational that we host in South Africa and well the next year the vice president Joe Biden would host a binational here in the United States of America now we have more than 600 American companies corporate companies in South Africa but they are organized into the American Chamber of Commerce I think you know the the American ambassador to South Africa already has a base in terms of the American Chamber of Commerce in South Africa those are people who do business in in in South Africa and it's important to ensure that we cement the relationship even at that level because those are the pillars that would ensure that the bilateral relations remain solid and unshakable even when there appears to be fluidity in the political situations they the the the therefore the trade agreements you know can be debated and entered into where proper I remember a few years ago Walmart came to South Africa and uh did a you know feasibility study and by the end two cabinet ministers took Walmart to the competition's commission we have a competition's commission because Walmart was at the same time entering into a measure with a local uh mass mat was a local South African uh company in the commercial sector and and the uh because the fears of the these ministers the minister of trade and industry as well as the minister of economic development where that Walmart was going to perform a monopoly so it's an antitrust the the competition's commission is an antitrust structure and and one of the things that made them persuaded them to approve that measure as well as allowing all smart Walmart to operate in South Africa was that you know they were uh they took into consideration the fact that by size South African corporations are small and and therefore if they are to grow and and to become world players they need to merge with other you know corporations globally but in the same breath they also were aware that uh you know South African corporations purely and simply because of their size are also sitting ducks for hostile takeovers and and that's why the procedure is that they have to give approval well it's uh it's uh it's something I think both countries have to work on just not but I'm sorry we have run to the end of our time I know there were more questions out there but President Matlana you have been extraordinarily uh candidate thank you and educational uh and we are very grateful for your being here we wish you every luck and success and success and luck in South Africa so please join me in thanking you