 Probably helpful to put myself on screen whoops Anyway, you guys just heard everything. Well Let's start this over here. We go Today an episode one away to the red man group. We have dr. Warren Farrell special guest for the entire show I'm Anthony dream Johnson founder of the 21 convention CEO the red man group co-founder of the red man group in CEO 21 studios So joining me on today's show is dr. Warren Farrell author of the boy crisis He's also the author of the myth and melt power and over 17 or many books published in over 70 languages around the world Without further ado, please welcome to the show dr. Warren Farrell glad to be with you Yeah, glad to have you man. I'm really excited. We first talked, you know a few months ago in late 2019 And real pleasure to have you on the show today. Thank you. I'm really looking forward to it, Anthony Yeah, and so for you guys watching make sure to get pick up his book on Amazon link is in the description There's an audible copy you can get for free by using the trial they have there. This is the paperback I have I think it's a hard back to I believe Yes, there is the actually the part the one that I probably most recommend is the audible a lot of men, especially Really like listening to it on the way to work or at the gym or that type of thing. Yeah So my first question I have about 57 questions for you my little notepad here I've been digging through your book past couple weeks and like I mentioned to you before we went live I've heard your your work and particularly the myth and male power Reference to me hundreds of times. I mean that literally and both on the internet podcast as well as on my conference People mention it over and over again But my first question is kind of personal and you're different from a different generation than me I mean you said you're turning 77 here in a few days Yeah 57 give her give her take 20 years. Yeah. Yeah, it's good Yeah So my first question though is you know, I grew up in America was born late 80s and I grew up basically in the 90s as a child What was it like growing up in America as a boy and your generation and your time? Well, yeah, really interesting. Yes, and I am 76 today and 77 next week. So you're absolutely right Yeah, and so therefore doing the math I grew up in high school in the McCarthy era And I got my first way of getting in trouble was to speak around the school And this is eighth grade now About the fact that well, wait a minute. Shouldn't we be listening to the perspectives of the Russians as well as us? And it was looked at like, you know, not just by the students. They didn't really know that much at eighth grade But the teachers like what's wrong with you? Do you come from communist parents? You know is something my parents were conservative. You know, they wrote voted Republican Eisenhower and so But I went shortly after that when I got into the ninth grade my father got a job offer in Holland and so the family moved to the Netherlands and that to the Hague and There I started talking about some of these issues and it was like, you know, everybody was non-plus It was like, yeah Everybody knows that the two bullies in the in the world are the Soviet Union and the United States They're six of one half a dozen of the other they just have different ideologies But they're the same self-righteous personalities and nobody listens to anybody and so I think that that probably planted my first seed as to feeling that there was a need to be listening to somebody other than ourselves, but I Was rejected and ostracized for that at a mild level and then but when I got over to the Netherlands It was like, yeah, of course And so I began to to tap into or maybe my thinking is not so strange so you know out of Ridiculous infantile naive, you know that type of thing And so I began to have a little bit of faith that I had something to potentially offer And that particularly what I had to offer was not an ideology that is communism is better or capitalism is better But rather the ability to listen to a different perspective other than my own Yeah, I mean it's interesting here that you've been speaking up since such a young age You know topic aside. It sounds like you've been you've been a troublemaker since you were very young Yeah, that's I guess you could in a way say that I never You know anyone that knows my personality knows that you know, I'm really Inherently I'm more of a diplomat than anything else and I'm you know, sort of very tuned into little nuances that people have and and you'll probably see a lot of this in the show and the and so But I do have this very strong feeling like the certain things that are unfair and that you can do one of two things With that are with things that are unfair You can either keep them to yourself or you can speak up about them and to me when I see something that's Unfair that's destructive to a group of people Then I feel there's a moral obligation if I feel like I could be of help to the advancement of understanding of that group of people Then I feel that there's a moral obligation not just to shut up but to speak up Yeah, hell yeah And so would you say this experience when you're young did that foreshadow what happened later with the feminist now organization? Because I was reading today in your bio You're you're I think you're the only man in American history to be elected three times to a the now organization For feminism those back in the 1970s the board of now in New York City Yes, it was not the entire now chapter, but the New York City chapter now and so the Yes, that that is accurate and and So what happened there was I was doing my doctoral dissertation in political science and the women's movement surface And so I went to my doctoral committee and I said my students at Rutgers University were saying you know Dr. Farrell when you talk about the women's movement you have fire in your belly Is that what you're doing your dissertation on no I was doing it on politics or grants and AIDS And they said you got to do your dissertation on On the women's movement. And so I went to my doctoral committee Suggested that they said oh Warren, you know you you're a really good student here You don't want to waste your time on a fad. It's going to be gone by the time you're finished your dissertation Wow, I said I disagree and I think that what's what's happened here is that we've moved from a survival based culture Where women and men had to have rigid roles women raise children men raise money and both sexes were restricted and confined And we're now for the first time in history Getting up and enough of the survival that in countries where there's a Mastery of survival for at least the middle and upper middle class There the rules are going to change and they're going to be saying women You can have more freedom to be whoever you want to be and where I made my mistake Was saying and they'll be saying men you'll have more freedom to be whatever you want to be the woman part not to be very a visionary and and You know and accurate the man part took a lot longer to happen And I did eventually understand why it took a lot longer to happen because we are biologically invested And having men be disposable and therefore and to be our It's we call men heroes when they're willing to die for us Very few people want to give up protection But the feminist movement made a fundamental mistake and I am part of this mistake So I'm not sort of blaming them. I'm blaming us or holding us accountable and that mistake was that that that we grew out of the Civil rights movement and the civil rights movement clearly had a hierarchical arrangement and the arrangement was a slave owners and slave and slaves Clearly hierarchical and then the feminist movement was very much oriented in in Lenin and Marks and believing that there there was the oppressor class there was the oppressed the The owners the workers and so clearly the people that earned money the people that didn't earn that much money So at a glance it looked like men were the equivalent of the slave owners the owner class because on average we made more money but what was missing and sometimes we made more money for the same work and that is real discrimination and what's left of that I Will always fight against but what was missing from our feminist thinking was that yes It wasn't actually men that earned money more money than women for the most part with exceptions It was dads who earned more money than moms that when men and women became dads and moms Men tended to give up jobs that were fulfilling like teaching in an elementary school and said okay teaching doesn't pay enough I've got to become a salesperson of whatever and then if they were a salesperson locally If they had a two or three children they realized that They should take that job to be the national salesperson because it'll pay twice as much But that created the fathers cast 22 and the fathers cast 22 is that men learned to love their family By being away from the love of their family Which and they didn't complain about it because that was what they felt made them a hero That's what they felt made them a provider That's what they felt made them valuable as a man But what we as the feminist movement did is we took that increased amount of money that men made from male sacrifice to give up something they love like being a musician an artist a writer and And which we're the fulfilling occupations almost invariably earn less money because more people want to do fulfilling occupations And really and so the supply of people wanting to do fulfilling occupations is enormous The demand is much smaller and we all need our we all need our garbage picked up a lot more than we needed less in an art history tradesman basically What's that? Yes. And so So what we is we as feminist missed is we took that Additional amount of money that men felt obligated to make And didn't realize that we had to find male power as feeling obligated to earn money That often someone else spent While we died sooner And we learned to call that power and we called that power and we called that privilege and we called that entitlement What in fact it was the opposite of privilege and entitlement It was fulfilling our responsibilities and obligations And it was giving up the privilege to be the musician the privilege to be the elementary school teacher the artist the writer my own dad said to me when I When I was in high school I began to show some interest and I think a little gift in writing and so And my dad always fought me every time I wanted to go to the library to write my first book in high school He said, you know, you got to finish You know Weeding the garden moving these rocks with me, you know doing these things and said warren I need to teach you how to work and besides if you want to you know, if you ever want to get married If you want to be a writer Only about one out of a hundred writers get published and almost all the in the average Amount of money that a writer makes on a book is about $5,000. It was less than that at that time And so he said if you if you can't find a publisher, you'll never find a wife for Um, and so and then he seemed to work out pretty well for you. Yeah worked out. Okay. Yes, but not without, you know, not without It's gone up and down, you know when I it worked out extremely well when I was speaking from the feminist perspective As soon as I started writing and integrating men's perspectives. Um, I went from I've probably lost well over 20 million dollars From the difference between what I was making when I was speaking Only as a representative of the board of the national organization for women in new york city versus Speaking much more empathetically toward men as well And and never and never giving up my support for women, you know And anyone that discriminates against women if I'm in a crowd of Of men's issues people and they're sort of putting women down They I sound like the group feminist and so Yeah, I was going to mention that feminists today. I'm sure they You know to put it bluntly they they mostly hate you or despise you But you still speak up on behalf of women's issues and issues for girls too And you make that very clear the beginning of the book Yes, and and I hope throughout the book because sometimes people make things clear at the beginning Book like the boy crisis and then they I I me mr. Fair and then, you know, then you watch the subtleties of the of the way they weave things throughout And so I hope that I leave that empathy for women and girls issues And and adding boys and men's issues Um, I from my perspective, we're all in the same family boat And when only one sex wins both sexes lose and so we're we're all in this together Yeah, it's actually something I want to talk to you about later in the show Let's talk about it right now though. So that that statement you just said when only one sex win or I have the quote written down, but we did exactly what you just said Yeah I had it written down verbatim here, but I agree with you on that the sex is a complementary They're made for each other and they they win together Yes, however, there are some people in the men's community the man is fear that disagree with you on that they have the opposite sayings such as Uh for one sex Basically one sex has to sacrifice their sexual imperative Uh for the other one to win So it's a win lose uh kind of they for one basically for one sex to win the other has to lose I think it's a very negative and non factual assessment of human life But you have the opposite and I agree with you on that If it was negative and factual I'd go along with it because I don't sure But it's it is negative And completely the opposite of the truth. I mean you know, I guess a good story that way to really Create a metaphor for this is the story and this isn't probably not a true story Not a powerful story, but of a man who was in years ago With a horse and a buggy and he's going through town and it has just rained and the horse gets the the wheels of the Of the buggy get stuck in the In the mud and he tries to get the the wheels out and he can't do it So the strongest man in town comes along and says well, let me try and he tries and he can't do it And then a weaker man like me in town comes along and says, you know, I think I can do it And everybody laughs at him and he says but he gathers around 20 or 30 You know other men and women and together they all get the the the horse and buggy free And so when we're working together and and you and we know how to work together without Not listening without Putting each other down without making our difference differences paramount But finding out how we can respect each other That that is the formula for for winning And would you say parenting is maybe the one of the highest expressions of that Together in a stable two parent family Yes, now the parenting parenting is absolutely one of the the most useful methods of winning and also the one of the clearest examples Of why we're not winning So there's two major things happening in parenting. One is when I when I was doing the research for the boy crisis What I found was that the The boy crisis resides where dads do not reside So I started thinking back from that. Well, why don't dads reside? in many families and it was because Of in the group that had been married It was because of divorces and after divorces there was a minimal amount of father involvement and We know we all know if you're listening to this podcast that the divorce courts are enormously biased against men But even take away that bias against men for a moment and go to the next level and say well Why are couples divorcing and for the most part the couples were divorcing because they didn't feel heard by their partner They brought something up and their partner became defensive So they stopped bringing things up because every time they did it only escalated and got worse And so I began to see that the achilles heel of all human beings is our inability to handle personal criticism Without becoming defensive and so I said is there a way around that? So I started researching that and seeing that they're That historically speaking if you heard criticism it might be from a kinship network or a neighboring tribe The fear was that that might be the sign that that kinship network or tribe was going to be a possible enemy And it's going to attack you so it was functional for survival to get up our defenses So built into our psyche is a need to detect The slightest little nuance that might be a hint of negativity being covered up by some polite diplomacy And so you know when we hear something even positive and it has that little nuance of negativity We hear the butt train coming around the mountain and we start preparing ourselves. And so the um The propensity is to become defensive or To kill the enemy before the enemy kills you and so the um And so and so therefore no one that loved each other Felt safe saying what they they their concerns were that would appear to the person who was hearing them as a criticism And and so they started to get further and further apart from each other And that ultimately led to divorces and that ultimately led to children having minimal or no father involvement Or what I call dad deprivation and that dad deprivation is as where The is what is what it leads to girls and boys most doing worse I found when I did the research for the boy crisis in more than 50 areas of development more than 50 areas of development Both boys and girls the main difference between boys and girls is that the the developmental levels The the impact negatively On boys from a lack of father involvement was much more significant Much more significant in terms of of committing suicide taking drugs feeling not understood withdrawing into video game addiction withdrawing into porn addiction Withdrawing into alcohol gambling gangs Isis Um Destructive behavior Was much more likely to manifest at a more intense level For boys that was for short girls Would you say that that lopsided effect it's negative for both boys and girls you're saying? I believe that a thousand percent Would you say it's negatively affecting boys even worse because they're they lack a same sex parent to model after as like a For starters it is that they lack a same sex parent and exactly they don't know who they are as a boy's second We give girls a lot more permission to express feelings and so And mom and moms are very much more protective and so As a rule and so when a girl is upset she cries and the mom sees that she cries and because she's a mom And she's been a girl that's exact same age. She gets it And so Was she exactly that's what I mean, but she gets it. She she remembers that her own experience is like that and you know, the girl is You know Feeling like oh my god. I'm at disgrace. I have some blood that's happening. What is this disgraceful thing? I can't tell anybody and mom sort of almost she can intuit all the little The nuances of things that That she did when she was a girl to cover up the quote disgusting blood that she was getting that was called her period And so she picks those things up like that whereas The equivalent for a boy of you know masturbating or something like along those lines Or needing or wanting to watch porn is not something that she had that drive for That she that that a boy has and so So that so that's level number one Number two is that the the boy without a dad experiences two types of voids One is a dad void and the other is a void in postponed gratification um As a rule moms And moms set more boundaries. I remember all these things can be reversed with different moms and dads Moms set more boundaries dads enforce boundaries more so for example moms and dads will pretty much both say Sweetie you can't have your ice cream until you finish your piece Moms will be slightly more likely to say that but yeah, it's pretty much similar. It's very similar The children will almost invariably try to have as few pieces possible Before they have their ice cream and the difference comes not in the boundary setting so much And not not in the boundary testing But in the boundary enforcement if there's a divorce, let's say there's a divorce and The child is you know wanting to have a His ice cream before he finishes his fees mom is likely to say something like oh sweetie You know, I did say you should have your Finish your piece before you have your ice cream So I'll tell you what have this many more peas and maybe she takes it You know a knife and separates out half the peas and the the child is realizing. Uh, huh Okay, I mom can I can negotiate with mom Okay, so now I have half of that half and I say mom You know, I've had a really bad day at school. You know, jimmy tried to bully me again Um, you know and mom says oh, yeah, that's terrible and you know and also there's you know We're divorced. He must feel like you know lonely that he hasn't seen his dad for a while Okay, I'm not going to get into a big argument over a few peas. That's insensitive and ridiculous. It's of wrong priorities Okay, sweetie. I understand. Um, I'll tell you what just had um, you can have your ice cream now Whereas dad is more likely to say, um, you know, sweetie You I I said you can't have your ice cream till you finish your peas hot dad. You're so mean mom. Let's me have it You know, he isn't like that to me. Well Your dad's house. This is dad's rules Yeah, and gets all upset, you know, sweetie You can continue crying and and yelling at me like that and then there'll be no more ice cream tomorrow night either And now the kid sees where it's going It's only going to get worse if she or she or he complains and there's not going to be a deal that dad's going to make and so the child says to the So the child with the dad is much more likely and this is the key with dad the child is more likely on focusing on Focusing on doing what she or he needs to do finish the peas Before they get what they want to have the ice cream and the adhd level among Children living primarily with dads is only 15 percent The adhd level with children living primarily with moms is 30 percent twice the level and one of the reasons you can see in that example Is that with the dad the child learns that there's no benefit In not learning how to finish your peas. That is postponed gratification And doing the thing you don't want to do in order to get what you want to have or is with mom The child is much more likely to become manipulative coercive Exhaust the mom And so you hear mom saying how overwhelmed they are and having she has to repeat things over and over again Because the last time she said something He was able to manipulate a better deal. So when she says something she he only goes back to manipulating And that's just one of a dozen examples that when I researched did the research from the boy crisis that I found Are differences in dad style parenting versus mom style parenting That lead to children doing so much better when they have a combination of both style parenting because Moms are very much more likely to be protective. They're much more likely to say sweetie You know, you sang that really nicely. You could be a singer. Do you know you could really be a singer? But with um, but unless the children have the discipline The dream of becoming a singer cannot be followed through with the discipline that it takes to do anything Artistic well, you have to be in the upper one percent to be able to survive and prosper doing that and so that's just an example of some of the things that To address your original question, which is don't parents work well together? And yes, my findings for the boy crisis were that that the children who do best Have what I call checks and balance parenting That is a balance between the mom's protector instinct and the dad's Sec disciplines and forced boundary instinct tough love instinct One of the big differences is the misunderstandings feeling that moms have unconditional love dads don't That is not accurate moms and dads both have unconditional love Dads just have more conditional approval Which is part of their unconditional love Got it My my follow-up question of this, uh, here when you talk all the way through this example by the story, right? The peas and everything and now the follow-up What do you think some of the or do you have uh, you know What are your thoughts on the primary driver for those differences in parenting instincts? Disaster on for example comes to mind for me because in my mind and my understanding Men have much higher testosterone levels than women. Uh, you know Is that one of the drivers? I'm sorry your um, your voice is um, was coming through muffled and I couldn't hear what your question was. Um Is it uh, voice clear now That is clear right now. Yes. Thank you So my question is uh, what are the what do you believe some of the top, uh, drivers are for that difference in parenting style? Specifically you're saying instinctually that mothers and fathers parent differently. They work together With fathers though, you're saying that there's more discipline involved. There's more delayed gratification Uh, for example, it's testosterone. Uh being higher in men. Is that a driver for why that's happening? And why women are engaging in different parenting styles? For sure and all all of uh, and part part is the survival thing that dads were um Both moms and dads historically learned that Their job was not about thinking about women's rights men's rights privileges opportunities things like that The world was not based on the patriarchy that we say it was based on it was based on the need to survive And to survive we took both sexes to play roles or both sexes evolved roles that they played because women bore children We led that led to women raising children and because men Raised money or killed animals or provided the did the Did the creation of the things that that fed the family? um Dad has got into that. So we even throughout animals animals realized that they that a father wild wolf Will will train the children to the the baby wolves to To go out away from the mother and learn how to survive in the wilderness And take risks and know what risks to take and what risks not to take Men have always almost always historically taken the risks outside the home the risks of being killed And so my father as I was mentioning before You know he was saying you know warren you may be a good writer You just can't make a living doing it and you know and and um, and i'm going to teach you at least How to do um good hard labor so you're going to at least know how to do that I'm going to teach you to have discipline so you'll be able to because you thrive in the world Not on on your dreams But you thrive in the world on either the discipline to fulfill your dreams Which only a small percentage are able to do or you uh or the discipline to do what will Predictably earn more money and it will predictably you'll predictably earn more money By figuring out what your talents are and you know doing your computer science or historically doing You know working as a car mechanic or working As a salesperson selling product X or that type of thing But you have to first figure out What makes money and then within the framework of what makes money and can provide for your family What are which of those things you can do the best not the other Not figuring out what you'd love to do and follow your dream That's um, you know and so whereas moms, you know seeing the children's Talents They want that talent to be nurtured and they're less likely to think about You know sort of wanting the the idea of of saying no You you sang that song poorly You need to do you need to go back and rehearse the acapello Lessons that you had last week to door to order to bring that your notes up and then the child starts crying I was trying was been working all day and the mom seeing the child cry feels oh my goodness I'm discouraging the child whereas the dad feels I'm teaching the child how to win Whereas one of the differences in dad's versus mom's style parenting is dads will play much more active games with children and when I was You know when our daughter was about 11 or so and I played soccer with her You know when she didn't really focus I would kick the ball Through to the goal even though I could do that every time with her at 11 But I I saved my kicking the ball past her for when she wasn't focusing or when she wasn't doing something right And she would sometimes start crying Because you know she she had the goal scored on her and for me that was the way of teaching her How to be better and better? So she lost In preparation for her knowing what she did that made her lose in preparation therefore for her becoming a winner But that does not come naturally to moms Yeah, what's coming to mind not only the discussion of winning and all this what's really coming to mind as you speak is the The concept of risk assessment And that fathers and mothers are teaching that in different ways The mother is not is focusing more on the on the dreams and aspirations But that's art or music or writing from your own experience with your own father And then he was focusing more long term on your on risk assessment for you going out into the world and pursuing a career What was more reliable and lower risk? absolutely and you see Exactly this excuse me In everyday life with moms and dads the child might say Mom can I climb the tree in the backyard? And mom will go well maybe in a few years sweetie, but right now you're too young to do that And you know so the child runs to dad and says dad can I climb the tree in the backyard and the dad goes Okay, just be careful. Okay, sweetie And and so the the kid goes out to climb the tree and mom says wait a minute. I just said you couldn't climb the tree I asked dad. He said I said I could whoa Come back here Dad, what's what's this about? I just told told her him that um She couldn't climb the tree Well, I think she can they get into a big argument But the argument is a can be a functional argument if they're both listening to each other for example The dad the mom can say to the dad You know, all right We can the child can climb the tree but under three conditions condition number one. She or he doesn't go up too high Condition number two the branches You know these branches you can't go on because they're too fragile Condition number three is you're out there under the tree. So if our daughter or son falls You'll be able to protect them from really hurting themselves and getting a concussion Um, oh and number four give me your cell phone If you're gonna go out there, so you don't get distracted and so and then so what's happened now that the child has gotten The opportunity to take risks by climbing the tree but also have protection And so interestingly enough When fathers are parenting children alone They're far more protective and they they incorporate the mother role of protective than they are when they're parenting children with With the mom where they just expect that the mom will take care of the protection part. That's really interesting I've I've not heard that before that the father will basically he'll modify his own parenting style with the in the absence of a mother Yes, yes, exactly not to the degree that the mother does but to a much greater degree than the normal and so with what's happened and here is why it is so important that What has happened when that child climbs the tree is that this brain synapses start firing much more quickly About you know, what branch is going to be safe? What branch is not going to be safe? Can I go up any higher than that? Can I get away with going higher than mom told me I could get could do And still convince mom that I wasn't violating anything and so and this increases both psychomotor functioning and IQ Now I have never heard a dad say to a mom You know, I really want our children to develop much more sophisticated psychomotor functioning And a higher IQ you want our children to have a higher IQ too Here is the way that cry here is why climbing a tree at that level helps that here is why rough housing We now know Is associated with an increase in empathy? an increase in social uh in uh assertiveness versus aggressive aggressiveness therefore social skills And an increase in postpone gratification when it is done with the normal boundary reinforcements that dads do that at Dads don't say those things and dads don't say those things because even if they read parenting magazines or books on parenting That's nowhere in the books. And so I felt it was so I felt so obligated to Have whole sections of the boy crisis on how dads parent differently than moms and how to combine The best to get that checks and balance parenting and for for dads to be able to say You know, here is the the relationship of rough housing to empathy the rough housing to social skills like Distinguishing being assertive versus aggressive and then to say them to moms and not to say them to moms like I'm right You're wrong But to say that to moms like I here's what I know you have to contribute More do you think you have to contribute? Here's what? What I've learned that I need to do in order to help the children develop this type of balance You want our children to achieve that dream of becoming the musician? I want our son and daughter to achieve that dream of becoming the musician You you foster that dream and I foster it differently by helping our children have the discipline to become that musician Yeah, this is fascinating. This is fascinating. I was an add on that had a quick Quip on that, but I can't remember it now brain fart Anyway, we'll move on to my whole list of questions When you get to be my age, you'll have more of them. So introduction Yep So let's get into some more of the uh questions I've written down So actually not even written down, but we this came to mind right before we started the show So the title of your book, of course is the boy crisis And it sounds from talking to you there's actually several motivations for choosing that title Can you talk to me about the top two or three motivations for why you chose that title in the first place with your co-author? Yes, but one of the reasons One of the things I really have discovered over the years is that Um, you know biologically males were were chosen based on our ability to protect our willingness to be disposable So, you know, we you know, we fall in love with the officer and the gentleman not the private and the pacifist Uh women, you know women and in doing so What the woman is falling in love with In that officer and a gentleman is his commitment to protecting his commitment to being willing to die So that um that the woman can live and the children can live and that others can live And so we've always historically every generation has had its war and in each generation's war We've historically told boys that at the age of seven eight nine Look at uncle joe. Um, his picture is on the on the mantle and he He died in war war world war two But he got you know, he got to be all the way to be a colonel and um, and we're really proud of him He he um as a result of men like him were not um under nazi rule and the boy learns that I can be a hero I can I can make a difference if I if in the next war I go off and I am I serve I come back with the uniform Girls will be attracted to me. Um parents will respect me Um, the the the community will respect me. I will be something and even if he's Not doing well A quick comment. Um, Stefan molly new spoke exactly on this issue of men going to war and these reasons why and what happens as a result And he got on youtube people to these feminists just went after him for it for saying the exact same things you're saying and it was just uh That's just a hallmark right now for me That is so sad that is really sad and and you know one of the things you have to if if you're a man You know that follows men's issues and care about men cares about men's issues and you watch this podcast um Do not do anything with it unless you have Unless you are able to handle criticism Because you will receive it if you love women, which I do Understand that the great majority of women will not be able to hear you You'll have to listen and listen and listen In order to be able to share something lovingly But one of the back to your question is one of the motivate one of the differences Between the boy crisis and the myth of male power Is that in the myth of male power of addressing? Women and men about what happens to men Women do not have a protector instinct toward adult men They expect men to sacrifice to protect them So when women hear men saying I have a problem too Biologically what that feels like to a woman is like scratching Um fingernails on a chalkboard women do not fall in love when a man complains To a woman that feels like a whining man Women do not feel fall in love with whining men. They fall in love with alpha men and here is the and so The the first thing so with the boy crisis There's a different dynamic biologically when I talk about the challenges that boys have Women who are mothers even feminist women who are mothers of sons Begin to have the instinct to protect the son is there And so when she hears something empathetic about the boy's fear of taking a sexual initiative Let's say when he's 14 years old and he's coming to mom and say mommy You know, I really love christa in school. Um, but you know, she's really pretty and all the other boys I'm sure she's more attracted to the other boys than she is to me And mom sees the vulnerability of that boy and says sweetie You're a wonderful sensitive caring boy And maybe christa's sitting home waiting for a call from you and maybe she likes you But she you know, she doesn't she hasn't heard from you So you need to pick up the phone and call her or talk to her about other things And then get to know her a little bit and have her get to know you But she's what mom is seeing in that boy is the vulnerability Whereas if I say men fear taking sexual initiatives with women When the woman is thinking about adult men. She's thinking all right fear I told the guy at you at a bar once, you know, do not buy me another drink I'm I just I need to go and he said no, no, here's another drink. I've already ordered her for you, sweetie And um, you know, and then he tried to pie me with another drink Uh, and he she doesn't say he bought me another drink And I had the responsibility to whether I drank it or not But says I was plied with another drink. Um, which is victim talk By the by the by the by the guy But the important thing that she's trying to say to us is he was he didn't seem to her To be that sensitive about fearing rejection In fact, he was fearing rejection. He was just doing all these behaviors that have in the past Worked for him about moving the woman from no to maybe to yes That men find um, the men do find that when feminists say that What is there about no that you don't understand? Um, the male experience of that is When women have said no to me before and then I talk to them a little bit more I buy them another drink or I ask you get in a different way or I Or or I give them more coffee to wake them up or I give them more alcohol to relax them Or I talk more about them or I talk more about myself Sometimes that no moves to maybe and sometimes that maybe moves to yes That's what there is about no that I don't understand The history of my interactions, but if you say that about men Women have all those overwhelmingly negative experiences that come to mind And they just can't even hear it if you say that about our son's fear of taking calling christa The the the mom even the feminist mom Has a different experience of the vulnerability that she or he protects Now i'm going to go from there to a much bigger picture Um on this issue of the biological differences In all animals with three or four exceptions Um there from when I say animal I mean from insect right up to human beings Okay, about 85 percent of reproduction happens between the female and the alpha male And so the so the the woman is the female is constantly looking for the male who will best be able to protect her So let's take buck elk elk as an example So the female buck buck elk will look for the male buck elk who has grown the biggest rack And to grow that biggest rack that exhausts 30 percent of the calcium the nutrition and the minerals of that buck elk So the the buck elk With the exhausted minerals nutrition nutrition and calcium The second he reproduces if he doesn't get rid of that rack right away by rubbing it against a tree the He's likely to die before if the if the winter sets in before he's able to replenish that nutrition So the the point there is that the that men's weakness Is our facade of strength The buck elk that was the alpha elk with the biggest rack Had the biggest facade of strength The mother reproduced with him Because the mother would get the greatest amount of protection from him without regard for whether or not he would die later Because what she cared about Was her being protected and the children being protected what he cared about was having sex with the Being the one to win the sexual privileges with the woman And the very fact that we call it sexual privileges gives us gives us a hint as to where the power lies If for him it's a it's a privilege for her It's an opportunity to cash in on getting the greatest amount of protection for not just herself But her children and this is an instinct that surfaces. This is not women greedy men not greedy Women are willing to die to protect their children But they're even happier to find a man who will die to protect them and their children Yeah, wow It's uh, it's interesting. Yeah, you're you're all the way from insects to elk to human beings and uh, you see that the same behavior I even I'd be maybe familiar with that everybody you're together. There was research that came out showing that like you're saying Uh, most men human beings that history have not reproduced Uh, women by and large have reproduced obviously, but men it's only a small percentage. Maybe 30 percent or something like that Basically, the alpha males are the ones that reproduce that history And everyone else just got weeded out of the gender gene pool And you see this and you were seeing this group. So one of the reasons I'm concerned with the boy crisis is that When boys don't Produce well It's not just that boys are not producing well Women who are thinking about having children are looking for men who are not living in their Standing and unemployment lines and then going back to their parents basement and living there And watching video games. They're looking for productive men. They're looking for successful men They're looking for motivated men and increasingly as women provide more income They'll be looking for emotionally sophisticated and intelligent men who in both express feelings Know how to to work with people know how to work with children and so So when when boys lose girls lose and when girls lose and boys lose the children lose because they only end up having one parent Mom say, you know The the selection of men that are out there That are attracted to me that i'm attracted to They're you know, that that that five percent that are the winners And that are, you know, taller than I am and that are relatively good-looking They're They they seem to be attracted to other women or they're gay or you know, but i'm not getting them So rather than having to compromise with a man I'll raise a child by myself And so what the woman doesn't realize is that particularly if she has a boy child, but also if she has a girl child That that is a high risk operation. There's millions of children raised by single moms that do quite well But and some that do very well, but it's a little bit like putting your child in a In a in a car drunk In san francisco and asking him or her to drive drunk to new york The chances are fairly good that they'll get they'll get there safely or have just a minor minor accident But you're increasing the risk And so what you know what I found at the beginning And when I was in the board of now in new york city I first began to see some of this data in the 1970s And I brought this up to the now members who are my board members And they were a little bit disconcerted saying well, wait a minute if you're saying dads are so important That means we're not going to have give women the free choice To raise children by themselves or the free choice to make a decision as to who the who the children should be with Um when they um when there's a divorce And I said well isn't our mission here to make sure that we have better children if a mom You know becomes um pregnant and has a child and they went Our primary mission here Warren is that we give women freedom of choice and let Trust women to make that decision the way they feel is best for the children And let me guess how how dare you advocate one position over the other Because that's that's yeah Yeah I've noticed this as well that they always feminist always want to present things as an equal choice Or this the choice is priority But behind that there's hidden uh, there's hidden agendas and it sounds like you're it sounds like you agreed that women do have a choice But you're advocating for what is you know based on the data and based on facts a better choice To do for an household Yes, actually i'm saying women have a choice and i'm also uh, but i'm saying their choice is at a slightly different level than the feminists We're saying it. Um, I was saying that I will always fight for and support women's choice to have children But the second that a woman makes a choice to have a child That choice involves when you have a child a responsibility to put the child's interests first And so if the if we now know that the data shows so clearly That children do better when they have both parents and both parents doing checks and balance parenting And that moms don't feel so overwhelmed when they have when they have um A father working with them to raise the children and that um, and that dads when they have a role in the child rearing process Feel fulfilled feel that they have purpose this is One of those few things in life where it's all win win win or lose lose lose When there when there's not a father in the operation Everyone loses and especially when I was between marriages. I was married for Um more than a decade and then had a 20 year period where I wasn't married and now I've been together with my wife for 26 years and um in between that time I dated almost all single moms And the and I loved their their the kids and got along with them real well But I began to see that the um that that the single moms Had two words that they said most frequently the first one was love The second one was overwhelm Almost not almost. That's not true every single mom. I met with zero exceptions Use the word overwhelm a great deal like saying and it was often like Oh, you know Warren, I really feel I could do better at work and you know move up in my career But I I don't want to be irresponsible to my my son or my daughter I love them more than I love my work And so but on the other hand I feel I could do you know, I want to take my children on trips I want to take them places that are special uh to disney land to to or again to To you know to explore this or explore that or you know, we read something about in the newspaper I want to be able to be free to take them off there But I can't without sacrificing my job and the job is what feeds them Yes, I get some child support But it's not enough to really to bring the children up the way I want I just feel so taxed so overwhelmed all the time And so I don't want women to go through their life being overwhelmed having to make sacrifices on their jobs versus their children And the best way not to do that is for for having a good father in your life But in order to have a father in your life That is good and the type of father that's worthy of you and that your children We need to pay attention to the boy crisis What's happening to boys and why it's happening to boys and particularly to understand that the boy crisis ironically resides where fathers don't reside Yeah So what you're saying, I fucking articulate it I'm on way here correctly Is that we know women mothers suffer when they try to play two parents rather than one parent as a mother They try to play mother and father. I've heard this too by the way I'm on generation There's a lot of single moms in central florida I know more More than I can count and they say basically the same things you're saying it hasn't changed For my generation Yes My question though is this this came to my when you were speaking is and I haven't seen you I may have maybe missed it But do you have thoughts on basically not only the role of two parents and raising a child and the benefits for that that are immense Do you have thoughts on The masculinity or the the male role of uncles and grandfathers and extended family And parenting and not parenting but contributing to uh, you know, say a boy's life growing up I recently became an uncle myself about eight months ago. A little enough, you know, it's amazing. I love it Um, but I haven't heard a lot of discussion about that even the men's community. It's mostly and I like that It's you know, a lot of discussion fathers Boys and men in their rights and issues But you don't hear so much about uncles and grandfathers and extended family like that Do you have any work on that or a discussion? Yes There's a fair of there's two things in the um boy crisis book that deal with that a lot First is the the chapter on what can a single mother do? So, you know, the first thing I explain is First you need to value the different parenting styles of Men versus women until you understand the different parenting styles of of dads and what that leads to You will not be able to help a man see that he's valued see that is needed And you will give you will give gatekeeping signals You know about You know the father that lets the child climb the tree the father that lets the child go to a To a pickup game at school and gets into a fight with some of the kids that they pick up the game with The mother will experience that as being Irresponsible so if you don't understand those differences and how they contribute to the child's positive development You will not incorporate a stepfather. Well a grandfather. Well an uncle. Well a male mentor. Well You'll always be suspicious. You'll always be limiting them and you'll always be getting less than you can Out of them. So that's the first that's step number one. So Master those differences and communicate the value of any man you're involving in your child's life With with that second if you are a single mom and you and with all that I've said You cannot persuade the father to be re-involved Or the father is so irresponsible or is in prison And can't get out the Then move to a number of other options number one is look for a sport that your child may be good in If she or he is fairly good at a sport Start helping them get the discipline To be better at that sport and then get them involved in that sport, especially a team sport But watch out for who the male coach is So if you have a couple of different sports that your kid is good at But the but the coach at school is more empathetic and connected and it has a reputation for really Guiding boys not caring so much about winning but caring of every boy on the team developing Pick you know Encourage your child to go to that with that sport when I was raising my daughter my daughters didn't with our daughters Our daughters didn't want to play A soccer or any sport at all and I said I was a stepfather and I said, you know, you don't have an option You you can have an option as to which sport you can choose But you don't have an option to not play the sports and they finally did choose a sport But only because mom finally got on board on that issue of the children choosing a sport And it was one of the best experiences of their are they're growing up years But it sometimes takes a parent being very strict about that So here's some of the here's here's two things you can do I'm going to give two lists of things you can do if there's a divorce Number number one is there's a chapter in the boy crisis called the four must do's of divorce And briefly the four must do's are that there's about it. There's an equal amount of fathering and mothering That the the children have After divorce number two is that the children do not hear any bad mouthing from father to mother or mother to father Number three is that the children live the pair the parents live Within about 20 minutes drive time from each other because if they don't The children don't want to go over to the other parents home and miss the soccer practice or miss the The birthday party of a friend and it takes them away from their social connections and and what they learn from sports And number four This is the most recent finding is that the children who do the best are the ones whose parents are in continuing And the emphasis is on the word continuing relationship counseling or communication counseling So don't just go to counseling when you have a fight over something That's an emergency because the emergency often means a deadline And it doesn't mean it means that you don't have the time to understand the other one's best intent So you make accusations about why the other person is wrong and you don't hear that hear them out and when you go to Long-term counseling As little as once a month you will find that your children will not just benefit From the two of you doing better with each other But realizing that they're not so afraid of marriage because marriage will end up with a divorce That will end up with the parents bickering and you're teaching your children how to communicate when When my daughter stepdaughter had her first Significant problem with a boyfriend and they came to me and I and I was working with them on that My stepdaughter interrupted me and says That's what you and mom do Then that's what you and mom do and she'd ever I never even know that she'd noticed that before But as soon as it was articulated for her it became very clear to her that that's you know So the role modeling is very important By example basically an action speak a lot of words, you know Yes example and then also if I were to have done that better Um, I would have done some more good work around family dinner nights to make sure that I articulated what was happening As well as had that just be discovered On on an unconscious level the next thing is if it's absolutely impossible to get a A good a good man involved at that at a biological father level Then you must know how to work with a stepdad if you have a stepdad involved There's the most stepdads become advisors You want to make sure that you value the stepdad's involvement enough that thought the stepfather's way of parenting To know that his likelihood of having a tough love approach to your children Has is very valuable to balance your love love approach to to the children And so don't just make him an advisor Understand his reasoning and incorporate it at with an equal amount of influence and power Otherwise, you'll waste the the stepfather grandfather grandfather's Grandfather and grandmother are very important to get involved And grandfather can be very helpful, but under but explain Understand the differences between Grandfather's values from his generation and the values that you want to create for your generation For grandfather a frank footer may have been just fine For you, maybe the frank footer doesn't have the nutrition that you want But how to communicate those differences are are very important Next get your children involved in cub scouts the high the cub scouts have done a lot of work On developing character children that are involved with cub scouts boys Boys that are involved in cub scouts for two years or more consistently Have a market measurable increase in character development Get them involved in boy scouts if you're inter if you're a faith-based person Get them involved with your minister your priest your rabbi Your imam and and but make sure that minister priest rabbi or imam Is a responsible caring Man and make sure that he gets your your son together with other boys his age Where they talk confidentially about their feelings and what's going and their fears and what's going on in them because Boys tend to stuff their fears and their feelings and then hide behind a mask of masculinity And feel that they have to appear strong when in fact they're feeling extremely weak Like the buck elk that we were talking about men's weakness is our facade of strength And so make sure that we That you you do it that involvement make sure you get your children involved not just in sports But look at the chapter on the liberal arts of sports the three different types of sports that develop a well-rounded boy or a girl by the way that one applies to both sexes but Are um look out for a male mentor invite that male mentor over for dinner Read the section on the boy crisis on how to construct family dinner nights so that they don't become family dinner nightmares get the um You have a lot of good things in the book like that. Um a little clever clever things like that another one I heard too as you said that mothers uh God what was it mothers uh mothers have a right to their children fathers have to fight for their children Yes, one of the very one of the very sad things is um and Every father listening to this who's had a divorce will sort of recognize this that We are living in a culture now where the basic philosophy is that Mothers have a right to children and dads have to fight for children The reason this is such a crime is I do a lot of expert witness work But almost um helping the judges understand the importance of fathers to the children And the importance of fathers with mothers to the children but I have to tell you that the um The people who call me they've spent an average of 70 to 100 thousand dollars before they have called me And then the cost of me their lawyer Off sometimes they have to pay for the mother's lawyers It means that if you don't have between 150 thousand and a quarter million dollars you don't have much of a chance of of Having an equal amount of time with your children in most states except for kentucky Um and and that's really it's kentucky the one state with uh equal shared parenting something like that Yes, there's a problem with a couple of problems with the law, but for the most part it's uh the fairest law Uh in the nation on that issue And so, uh, we would you say that law should be an example for the other states to model after Yes with with the one exception that i'm talking about and it's too technical to get into it here But um, but yes do take a look at the kentucky law and that is the closest to um a model that for the future For sure, but you know the the basic model is that is very simple, which is you know when it's when children um When there's a divorce, um, you know first of all there needs to be I think a requirement of the part of the courts that the parents before they um the the judge gets involved Gets involved not with a mediator But with a couple's communication counselor So the couple learns how to understand and communicate with each other Mediation is just resolving the differences In who wants what and what type of times and schedules That's just the mechanics of it The real good work needs to be done by good communication first To see if you can restore your marriage and if you can't to restore the way you communicate about the differences after marriage And so that's the um, and then once that is done That the law reads that children have an equal amount of time with both parents that the parents live within about 20 miles from each other that there's no bad mouthing and And when there is a violation of the bad mouthing if one is doing Violating those things or doesn't want the other parent involved That's the sign for the judge to have the primary parent be the one that is Facilitative of the other parents involvement Wow Yeah, this sounds great and it's uh, I guess the reason we don't have it's because it sounds way too reasonable You know default. I mean it's It is it is um, I wish I could agree. I wish I could disagree with you So and the the long part of that to end that thing is so yes Every one of these fathers realizes that you know, the mothers have the right to children and we dads have to fight for children And that's the ultimate lose lose situation Yeah, you mentioned the money issue as well and it you know, I've heard this as well I know guys have gone through this stuff guys who've lost They've fought through you know family court like that They've spent 50,000 guys in a personally and more and then divorces of course can get even much nastier than that losing money there The money issue though is amazing because most americans don't have even a few months of savings saved up never mind a hundred thousand dollars laying around Exactly and then the the fathers that do so what I feel badly about is you know, here I am working with You know that upper that 1% of fathers that have that money to be able to afford all these lawyers into to the fight And you know, whereas the children growing up in poor families They're the ones that need the fathers as much or more than the children growing up in wealthy families and And wealthy neighborhoods with good schools, etc And so this is this is really a crime and we're paying when I did the calculation of the cost for this for the For the boy crisis book. I calculated more than a trillion dollars a year is what I saw that To repair to clean up the mess of much greater likelihood of these boys Being able being criminals and the 700 percent increase in the prison population since 1970 The cost of maintaining prisons. I looked at the mass shooters and the school shooters They're almost all dad-deprived boys looked at the isis recruits They're almost all dad-deprived boys. Um, and so when you look at dad deprivations Caught the cost of cleaning up the mess Of the homeland security with isis the patriot act the you know the the cost of prisons the cost of Of all of these ramifications of the school shootings the security systems, etc To say nothing of our psychic insecurity and shame And there's also a lost opportunity right because these boys are not productive You know, they're not building businesses. They're not building careers. They're not paying, you know, making money and paying taxes So there's lots of opportunity there too, right? They're soaking our taxes not paying our taxes. Yeah Well, uh, we're getting pretty far in the interview. Um before we wrap up at some point I do want to go on some current events So you actually put out a here we go an opinion piece in the washington examiners a couple days ago And rediscovering fatherhood in the plague year You guys can google this and we'll put a link in the comments or description after the show And you actually talk about, you know, fatherhood Uh, you know the importance of it this year as well as uh for you know, the riots and things going on right now He talked to me about the uh the importance of fatherhood for you know The protests and the riots going on currently in america or at the relevance to that Yes, absolutely We you know, we're all in agreement that black lives matter and some of us really are passionate about that And um and yet we're missing a couple of very important parts of the conversation The most important part of which is that um if we really care about black lives We have to remember that the african-american community Is the community that suffers most from dad deprivation When the moinehan report was done in 1965 Moinehan was worked for both nixon johnson and kennedy and was a labor secretary and a sociologist and a u.s senator And he was one of the most respected people in in um in politics And so he was assigned to do the moinehan report to find out why crime had increased so much in inner cities So he did this and everybody was afraid like oh my god He's going to find out that you know african-americans are you know inferior there than more prone to um to commit crime We found out something very different Which is that the crime was committed almost always in among families In which there was no father involvement Usually unmarried families and it was so and at that time in 1965 Only 25 of children growing up in african and inner cities were growing up in Without dads Today the figure is not 25 anymore. It is 74 75 percent of african-american children are growing up without dads Interestingly in the Caucasian community At that time 1965 the percentage of Caucasian children growing up without dads was 3.1 Now it is 35 percent. It's a 12 fold increase in Caucasian children growing up without dads And the and the and the crimes in Caucasian families have increased enormously as well This is true basically across all races and demographics in america right single motherhood skyrocketed It's it has skyrocketed enormously and so what we see what what Moynihan saw was Where the lack of father involvement increases your crime increases Where father involvement? Where father where father involvement increases crime decreases and it's not just crime crime is just a symptom Of course of you know a boy who's purposeless who's depressed whose testosterone is not being channeled well And so the point here is that if we really care about black lives Rather than folk not rather than but in addition to focusing on the systemic racism That involves the police. We need to focus on the systemic Sexism that keeps fathers out of the family And get get fathers more involved and recognize that The the systemic racism is not equal male to female It is it is the males that are 25 times as the african-american male It is 25 times as likely to be in prison according to the bureau of justice statistics As the african-american female is a huge gap. It's the white It's it's the african-american male male versus female That is that is also 20 times as likely to be stopped by police Shot by police. And so we we need to look at why what's happening particularly to dad deprived males and to focus on the the Um rejuvenating our black male boys With father involvement and saying to black fathers african-american fathers We need you your sons need you your daughters also need you Your wife needs we wife needs you and the government needs to stop making it To to reverse the incentives to make sure that That that women who are poor that live with the father Get the income to a greater degree than women who are poor who do not live with the father And so the we need to support families We need to support those families when they go to communication counseling And they do the work to learn how to be good communicators with each other And therefore good checks and balance parents For the viewers as well, uh, I wanted to pull up another article Exactly what you're just speaking on this is another article you put out an opinion piece I believe with town hall and actual title, of course Like you were speaking on is if black lives matter black dads must matter And like I mentioned before we went live. So let's defend molly newt tweet the other day hashtag black fathers matter And uh, you know hitting on a lot of the same topics and points you're speaking on Paul elam as well pointed out. Um, he actually was reviewing the black lives matter website And he made a point that they actually don't mention fathers at all Um, they it's it's unfortunate and sad, but so they mentioned a little bit about family stuff A lot of it's actually they want to get rid of the nuclear family But they mentioned mothers and parents and fathers black fathers is completely omitted. There's no mention of it This is this is absolutely accurate now the The overall black lives matter movement is a very different sort of spirit Than the people that created the black lives matter website or the original organization Which is much more radical much more anti nuclear family. They're all feminist. I believe right all three of them Yes, but in addition to that it is really a very anti It is very like fathers don't matter Website implicitly because fathers on the website are not discussed in any way of inclusivity This is the huge mistake. Um, I am I share as you know a coalition to create a white house council on boys and men and um, I've always been I've I've been more politically liberal growing up than and and now for the most part than than conservative but The conservatives are the ones that really understand fathers issues and men's issues and and the importance of the family and I went out but I went out to work with the um, uh, you're putting them up there This is um, I interviewed some 10 democratic presidential candidates a year ago april when they were in iowa and had And I found that seven of them have those interviews are on my youtube channel So if you're interested in seeing the actual interviews, they're on You got the youtube my youtube channel and so and they're being flashed right here now But the the important thing here is that the democratic candidates Were able to hear me on the importance of fatherlessness and the importance of what's happening with boys But their campaign managers were very Persuasive in persuading the candidates not to speak up about that Because they felt that if the candidates did speak up about that they would lose their feminist base They would lose their female base because what they were supporting Was women's choice to be able to raise children by themselves And today in the united states 53 percent of women are the 30 who raise children raised them by them Without without um being married and usually without father involvement except for a few years And the and so there is this enormous propensity to For the for the campaign managers to say some version of no where we want women to have freedom of choice To be able to be the ones to have the children the rights of children after marriage We think that women know the children best and this was like um And so the the ultimately except how much for uh so much for equality Yes, and so you know liberals we are handling We are handing the you know the the next election over to president trump Because there are millions of million if you if so if you feel like you would not like to have president trump As the next president you need to get your act together when it comes to Caring about boys and caring about fathers and and incorporating them that freedom of choice is not Is is is the decision you can make to have a child? But you make a decision to have a child Your obligation is to think of what's best for the child Not what what's best for your freedom to go off and marry another man and move out of state and have the child Not see the biological dad Very often and I was going to I think I heard you say just to clarify Were you saying that andre yang was the the most responsive out of the democratic candidates? Yes, in fact listening to the interview with andre yang is very helpful And he did manage to get one or two sentences out in one of the debates about you know the challenges that are happening with boys um He was and john hickenlooper was very receptive with me. You can see a full interview I did with john um on the youtube channel as well But when push came to shove He backed off from making a statement about that Even in his senate campaign now, so That and that's very sad because he's a good man who understands these issues, but he doesn't want to lose his democratic base Yeah, that's tragic Um speaking on the white house councilmen and boys I wanted to ask you about that more directly and you've been all over the news with that fox news And like you're saying, you know the ted ex talk he did on it all these things You've been working on the the white house councilmen and boys for over 10 years now Because you were initially invited to help form one for women and girls And then you got this one going as well now or how's the progress on this going? Very good in many respects. Um, so um, I was at the white house somebody from the Trump administration discovered me talking about father's issues at one of the fatherhood summits and I got invited to the white house and they had 14 People from the white house department of justice and hhs sit with me and I talk with them about the importance of fathers they were very excited about it and They asked me to construct a presentation that president trump would Potentially have given this father's day On this and I did a president. Wow created a presentation for that However, it looks like there isn't movement along those lines the fear seems to be That president trump talking about family Would draw too much criticism because of his own three marriages and so And he's sort of staying away from that There is talk about putting penns on this issue and having him speak up on this issue Because he's you know, he so has much more of a solid family background But so far that hasn't been done, but we're you know, we're in the process of developing a channel to pens and the The the speech that I created for president trump to give for father's day Which of course we go through speech writers. I don't want to give any, you know, any Any any illusions here that he'll take my speech and give it But even to give something based of what you wrote that would be amazing for sitting us president to do that To speak on father's day about fatherhood That would be Yeah, that'd be amazing It certainly would and um and so, you know, so the The pushback that I got from the democratic candidates and every single campaign manager was so different from the receptivity the you know, the The comments at the white house when I was there was like, you know, wow We have never heard this at this level of depth and this is so important and we must do something about it We just we had a moral obligation to doing something about it And from a liberals looking at, you know, um at conservatives, you may think moral obligation is something that you have a the the only The only um Could um that you have a dominance over our monopoly over Moral obligation, but in fact, you know, I I hope if maybe I communicate anything during this This talk with you it's that you know that both parties care a lot And both parties have a lot of people that do care some that care so much That they think that that that they will do anything to remain in power thinking that they're the ones that are right and of course, um, you know But just but you know, I think on the issue of fathers and families Uh republicans really get this issue to a much much greater degree It sounds like the basically the feminists have have I don't know how to explain it They've pushed the the democratic party They've almost forced the candidates away from fatherhood issues like you're saying they even if they support it in private They didn't in public because then it's going to cost them getting nominated or getting elected It's it's actually costing there's consequences to it There's enormous consequences consequences to it and and one of the consequences is that it's probably about 20 million parents that have children mostly boys who are Fatherless who are boys who are failures to launch boys who are depressed boys are withdrawing boys who are addicted in one way or the other to the video games and porn to all the things I mentioned at the outset of the show and the um and the um to not and and those parents many of them if one Political leader, whether it's Biden or Trump started saying we need to pay attention to our boys Our boys need fathers um I'm concerned about the the 50 different areas of developmental regression that boys are are involved in Those parents those voting parents Their sons are more important than their democratic or republican label People will vote for the hearts of what of a of a candidate who is willing to speak up on behalf of their sons And behalf of their daughters ultimately as well with the father involvement And so one of the political parties is missing an enormous opportunity here By both parties basically ignoring this issue, but so far I have to give the republican party credit for moving much more To being much more receptive Facilitative and enthusiastic about this issue Then the democratic party has been Yeah, and so do you think we can I know it's there you can't you know the crystal ball But you think we can expect and a high likelihood in the coming years an actual white house councilmen and boys Because currently you're still in the commission early phases of it, right? No, uh 11 years into it. 11 11 years. Yeah I meant My age that's that's very very a minimum amount of time That's a lot for me as a lot the third of my life I'm playing with myself or mocking myself, of course But is it likely to get actually, um, so it's still in the commission phase. That's kind of what I meant That's not finished yet. It's still in the coalition phase It's the coalition to create a white house council and boys and men and there while there is receptivity to it It hasn't been done yet and The white house council on women and girls if you if you're interested in that journey You can take a look at the white house council and boys and men website But the the brief version of that journey was Because I was on the board of directors of the national organization for women in new york city When obama president obama formed the white house council on women and girls I was called by the white house to be on the board of it On an advisory group for the white house council on women and girls Of course, I said yes, we ended up turning out that the that council was never formed, but at any rate The I said I'm happy to join that and be in the advisory group for that. However There's a real need for a white house council and boys and men as well And the woman who called me said well, that's not in my you know my I don't have the authority to do that But if you create a proposal I'll help you Get it up the the ladder And so I got 34 of the top leaders in the country on boys and men's issues and you know the head of the boy scouts the head of men's health magazine, etc and we We spent 18 months hammering out because I was committed to making this coalition A multi-part partisan coalition by which I mean democrats republicans libertarians and people that were somewhere in a mixture of all And and we we hammered that out for 18 months created. I think a really outstanding proposal Um, and then I've you know very very significantly update updated that in the boy crisis, but Yeah, I was gonna say it sounds like that inspired a lot of that ended up ending ended up in the boy crisis Basically as an inspiration for it. There's a when we did this and 11 years ago I didn't have nearly the data that we I had today because I hadn't done as much research on it I've only been I've been researching intensely in the last 10 years So we're still, you know, we're pretty far into the interview before we wrap up eventually I don't think we can end the show without discussing Father's Day, which is tomorrow. Yeah, and I actually found this article that was published It was you know, you were interviewed basically for it by the tennessee and And I thought it was actually current but it's actually last year it's 2019 And you were speaking on the issue of father's day and you said you know the title of this is They're just as needed as mothers warned for all things father's day gets overshadowed So you're actually a father yourself. You have two daughters, right biological daughters Yeah, no two two step daughters From my mom from my wife My wife is My mistake, um, but can you discuss to me the importance of fatherhood? I mean other than a president speaking on father's day, which would be stunning Uh, you know, we hear a lot of you know tomorrow. I'm sure on instagram for the woman my age You know millennials and stuff. I'm going to see a lot of memes and things like that about you know Mothers do everything and they can be both and They'll they'll even celebrate it's bizarre You know being a They're a woman and they'll celebrate being a father in this kind of weird, you know internet language But can you just discuss the importance of father's day and how it's treated in modern culture? Yeah, well, it's it used to be a father knows best and now his father is no less or And so a boy growing up is looking at tv and seeing these bumbling, you know idiots called fathers Sometimes kind and well-meaning idiots, but incompetent And he's also hearing that the future is female. This is not the best formula for You know inspiring a boy to think about his future The and but what is missing is you know, um, I was mentioning in earlier in the show That boys and girls do worse in more than 50 areas of development when there's not a significant amount of father involvement And and and that there's reasons that that ends up being the case One is just having half your genes being the genes of the dad But the other part is understanding all those differences between dad's greater greater propensity to discipline to create the tough part of tough love to do things like Rough housing that creates bonding with the children But also teaching but doing boundary enforcement and saying that there will be no more rough housing If you are not considerate of your your brothers or your sister's needs children being Dads are much more likely to take the children out camping to Areas that might be a little bit precarious or let them walk a little further without them right behind them or next to them Are holding their hand let them get lost for a little while within this within an area of safety Dads are often like roller coasters providing a lot of excitement But with safety At the bottom of it But okay and letting the children get a little bit hurt on the playground getting into a fight And then treating the that experience of the fight as something that they can talk through with the child As being able to learn how to avoid the fight in the future as opposed to being there at the playground protecting them from the fight Dads have a philosophy internally for the most part and again Some dads are exactly the opposite of this some dads are irresponsible and some mothers aren't exactly this way And so there's so many differences in dad style parenting that lead To those 50 developmental advances that children with dad involvement have And so it's incumbent upon both moms and dads To not be an overwhelmed mom To involve dads to call upon our dads I've asked the white house to create a fathers Warriors program to train boys from an early age to be involved caring emotionally intelligent father and to work with women to and Desire a father as a mate a father that's involved may be full time While the woman might be full time involved in breaking glass ceilings Many women say to me. Oh, I can't be a have-it-all woman like a man can be a have-it-all man And that's not true a woman can be a have-it-all woman If if she if she if she chooses a man from among the men that she's interested in Who is more interested in being emotionally engaged perhaps full time with the children While she goes out and makes that money that she wants to make and be Be a status success and and have responsibility in a positive and creative way And so um, she can do that while he's home taking care of the children As long as she respects him for being home and taking care of the children She can be a have-it-all woman. She can have a career. She could have a good marriage And she can have successfully raised children And that's a way of doing it, but you have to value A man's contribution as a father in order to do that I can just hear the feminist screeching now saying that a mother, you know, a woman need a man and a mother needs a father Yeah, it makes perfect sense though. Yeah, the only way to the only way to do the have-it-all is to actually Facilitate an environment where that's even possible Otherwise you just end up overwhelmed and stressed out and anxiety ridden and all that And you have to be a brave woman for that because you know many times women If they marry a man whose goal it is to be full-time dad and maybe try something experimental When he has time while he's raising the children that may or may not make money Her women friends will often say well, what about that doctor you dated? You know, why don't I introduce you to jim the wire? You know, and so she'll feel less respected by her women friends if she chooses a man Whose specialization is emotional intelligence rather than Rather than economic success One of the issues I wanted to discuss is you you focused heavily on the book First of all, like I I promised my wife. I'd be finished by 9 30 or 10 o'clock. No problem. We can wrap up Maybe one more question and we'll finish up. Yeah, I guess my final question. Well Yeah, let's just end on this. This is a kind of wrap-up question ahead and it has gone We've gone to about 90 minutes now Um, how do you want to be remembered? Uh, you're in your 70s now. I think you're going to live well into your 90s No, you 100 like I said given and specifically I'm hopeful first of all for your voice to be around for a long time as long as possible But specifically in the book you actually went into physical health mental health Supplements nutrition things that are very consistent with what our speakers of the 21 convention have advocated for years Other authors you might know like mark sisson dr. Paul gem and a dave asprey and people like that But how do you want to be remembered specifically? Other than agitating feminists and advocating for boys. Is there anything more in men? Obviously in fathers Yes, um I'd like to be remembered as somebody who Basically feels that we're all of the same family boat and that when either sex wins both sexes When it went only one sex wins both sexes lose I'd like to be remembered as somebody who cares about gender liberation Liberating both sexes from the rigid roles of the past from to more intelligent Flexible roles for our future and I'd also like to be remembered for the couples communication work that I do getting both sexes to listen to each other and to facilitate the ability of Each person before they articulate their perspectives to fully hear Other the perspective of the person that they love that they live with whether that's their parents Whether that's their children to understand how to run family dinner nights So that they're really effective in allowing every child to be an emotionally intelligent child If I can be remembered for those things That would be my And for being I hope a a really good husband to my wife and Hopefully a good dad to my children. Yeah, sounds good to me Well, with that said work and our viewers find out more about you other than links in description Of course under the video and you mentioned you had a workshop coming up as well on zoom Couples counseling. Yeah, I've been doing for the last week or so Um, well actually last last 30 years I've been I've developed a couples communication workshop that I've been able to Put on zoom or get ready to have put on zoom that should be available in july and or august And I'd say on the relation to the boy crisis book Uh, that the paperback version on amazon is the least expensive way of getting it and the audible version I have received just overwhelmingly good feedback about I've I've read the audible version of the boy crisis and john gray has read The adhd section on the boy crisis himself and A lot of both men and women are responding very positively to positively to the audible sec Oh, so you both narrated it. I didn't know that Yeah, we both Got in the studio took me five days to read my part of the book and And john read read his part on adhd Yeah, well, this has been great. Uh, I really appreciate your time. Love the interview. Love the content Love the book and I'm gonna buy more your books. Finally. I've been hearing about them for years The older ones, especially methamyl power and things like that Thank you. Appreciate your time greatly It's really you just ask great questions listen really well and um, and I like the fact that you care about Moving these issues forward and you have the guts and courage to do it. Yes, sir. Same to you Everyone else, uh, you know, appreciate you guys tune in today live. We'll see you next saturday with uh speaker and author jack donovan author of the way of men Warren, uh, once again, thank you for your time. Everybody make sure you go buy his book on amazon now the boy crisis And many others just go on amazon search warren ferrell and you'll see him. I'll pull up Thank you everybody and we're gonna Total pleasure