 Hello everyone and welcome to today's panel discussion and welcome to the the panelists which is part of the kitchen table series. I'm Jill Hind and I'm the Global Corporate Responsibility Leader for EY where I lead a global programme called EY Ripples where we aim to impact the lives of 1 billion people by 2030. So today's kitchen table discussion is about what more can business do to tackle social inequality. And I think top of mind is that we all recognise that that true inclusion calls for a more systemic approach. It requires ongoing commitment of all stakeholders and significant step-chair. So it's effectively arcane businesses, governments, investors, social enterprises, all the actors in the ecosystem take a more significant stride in these endeavours. You know really reducing financial complexity, breaking down barriers, high perception of risk, addressing information and capability gaps. So how can such an ecosystem if you if you if you will draw on and and support the inspiration from many social enterprises who are innovating on new business models and breaking down these barriers to tackle social inequality head on in some of the the most challenging environments. So now to discuss all of this with me today and a possible future we have a great panel here I know from personal experience really seek to drive action-orientated outcomes. So I'd like to have them introduce themselves and I'll start with Meredith. Meredith thanks so much for joining us today. Jill thanks so much it's just a real pleasure to get to speak with this group and I appreciate you as well as Socap Global for bringing us all together. So my name is Meredith Sumter and I am the CEO for the Council for Inclusive Capitalism. We are a global community of CEOs and public sector leaders who are committing their organizations to concrete actions that benefit people and planet as a way of doing business. This speaks to what you had just mentioned about the need for new business models. This is not CSR and this is not about philanthropy this is about business leaders rethinking how to do business so that as they pursue profit it is to the advantage of people while protecting the planet. It's a real pleasure to be with you today. Thank you Meredith and Alexandra from SAP thanks for joining us today we'd love a little introduction from you too. Thank you Jill it's so nice to be here with all of you. It's a real pleasure I feel very honored to be joining this panel. My name is Alexandra Vandebleuk. I head out corporate social responsibility globally at SAP. We're a global tech player who are based in Europe. We have our headquarters in Germany and you know we've been working in the space of social entrepreneurship for over 10 years and it's been quite fascinating to also sort of see how that has evolved and I'm just really looking forward to the conversation with all of you today about this topic. Thanks Alexandra and yes Mina over to you thanks from Acumen. Thank you so much Jill and thank you for having us. It's just great to be here with colleagues and friends. I'm Yasmina Zaidman. I'm the Chief Partnerships Officer at Acumen. We have been investing in and supporting social enterprises for 20 years and really share that same belief that they are going to be a catalytic part of how we develop the new models to make business more inclusive and sustainable and we've also been able to support emerging leaders so we think a lot about leadership and this broader ecosystem of voices and participants and a big shift that's going on across the business world but that really needs to touch every sector so thanks for including me today. Thank you Yasmina and really welcome and Jawad it's actually just the next perfect step to introduce you and thanks for joining us. Would love an introduction. Thank you Jill and hello to everybody from Pakistan late night looking forward to this conversation. Again my name is Jawad Aslam. I am the founder and CEO of Ansar Management Company. We're a social enterprise that focuses on building housing and giving access to housing from the bottom 40th percentile of the population of Pakistan so we've been around since about 2008 and we're going strong and we're in the process of scaling up now. Wonderful and Jawad I might start with you and and this certainly is a kitchen table serving across multiple time zones so it's wonderful to have everybody present today. I think Jawad as an entrepreneur you've built a business really from the ground up. Did you always set out to run an inclusive business? Yeah that's a good question when I when I think about that I think that my journey started from the US where I was basically working with developers who were building you know half a million to million dollar houses in the suburbs of DC and I quickly decided this is not what I want to do so I packed up and came to Pakistan in about 2005 and ran into a development that was actually an early investment of that human fund and at that time they were focusing on affordable housing so when I started working there I quickly realized that this is something I want to do but the non-profit model is not going to work if I really want to scale this I've got to take it for a for-profit and at that time we were had great aspirations I think I came in with this sort of sort of pure technical approach that I want to really be a hero and champion for affordable housing and quickly realizing that hey the way to do it is not just to be overly focused on affordable housing but to have a more broader view so if I look back at to do all this from 2006 and now 2021 it's a very different perspective and the perspective is something that I look forward to discussing in the conversation today but it's essentially about how we need to balance ourselves and not have this but we find at least in our spaces a whole other than our approach about how we're doing things right and maybe the corporate world doesn't know how to do it I think it's got to be more of a balance about how we look at each other and we actually encourage the corporate community and take a lead on this on this subject especially in the case of affordable housing yeah no absolutely I think it is about this ecosystem of of collaboration and and certainly in in you know the the story you've shared and the journey you've been on um Jawad I mean you you've had to overcome a number of of challenges in setting up AMC and the tensions that you've experienced I think it'd be lovely just to hear you know just some of those challenges and and you know how you've had to make trade-offs essentially you know and and to partner to start actually bringing um your vision to life yeah so our again our journey started again um back in 2008 when Back Human invested about $300,000 um and now again about 15 years later we're looking at 30 million dollars that we brought in for affordable housing and it's a sector that doesn't even exist in a place like Buxton in an organized manner so learning there's a long list of what we've the tensions we've had to navigate and the trade-offs but I think the main thing that I would say is really essentially it's this my first mistake was this mistake about saying hey I want to just serve the poor um and not realizing that that I need to take a step back and say uh what is the best way to do that how can I actually serve or get access to housing for those that are underserved uh is it by having to sort of you know blinders on and just say this is the only way it can be done or opening up my mind and saying how do I invite others to come to this space and by others I mean mainstream developers and housing so I find myself 20 years later rather than doing anything I spend most of my time trying to talk to other developers in a place like Buxton you have developers who have enough wealth to keep their next four generations completely safe and not worry about working for one day and just convincing them that for once take a risk on the the profits that you normally get which ends up being something like 50 60 percent annualized and come down to something more reasonable like 15 percent and try to target the lower income segments by that way you're actually impacting society in a much more deeper way by having some sort of impact by it's a game changer by getting somebody in the lower income segments to become a homeowner the real impact in the place like Buxton is intergenerational mobility and that's something that I've learned that we've so we come along now somebody comes back and says hey you were supposed to you know serve the low income segment I said yeah I'm doing it better now than I was doing in 2006 because I've taken a more nuanced and balanced approach rather than you know saying and so somebody would say that this is a you know I've sold my soul or I've lost my focus and I think I would tell them that it's just a more pragmatic approach as we look forward to grow absolutely and I think your point about you know this is seen as a made an investment opportunity in a different way of looking at risk and I think it's a it's almost a nice segue to just to hear from you Yasmina you know just I'd love to hear your perspective you know as an impact investor you know you kind of recognize this into play and some of these attentions that you may experience with some of the investing companies and maybe in your organization itself yeah absolutely and I think it's wonderful that Jawad can be with us to kind of share this story because I think that that that story really captures the journey that we've been on you know our focus is on finding companies that can solve the problems of poverty and that's always been a guiding principle for us it it isn't just impact first it's the poorest and most vulnerable first and so for us thinking of investing as a means we then have to get a lot more sophisticated about what does that mean and how does our investment lead to future investment right how do we build scalable models how do we build role models for the world because at the end of the day the scope of the challenge really requires that so for us as an investor I think we've really had to think about what are those guiding principles that we develop and we had the fortune I think having done this for 20 years of being able to hone in on the practices and the decision-making tools that allow us to make investments that really again not just deliver impact but create scalable impact and models for the world so a lot a large part of that is being able to look at the spectrum of capital right what's the kind of capital for an enterprise at different stages of growth how do you attract other investors as they grow how do you help de-risk investments while still creating sustainability and accountability and I think one of the things that we've come back to again and again is investing in character right because the pressures of living in a shareholder based economy are very real and so in order to use those tools effectively we have to think about who we're supporting who we're investing in and we've been reminded of that time and time again and frankly just I think learned so much from our relationship with Jawad over so many years seeing the way that he makes decisions to make sure that his company is delivering that impact for vulnerable people I think has shaped a lot of how we think about working with entrepreneurs and finding those companies that are really going to deliver an inclusive model with both the scale but also not getting sidetracked and saying at the end of the day that growth or profit margin is more important than the social impact that they started out with and and and I mean building on that point um yes me know around you know partnering with with corporations you know to to create these connections and facilitate knowledge sharing because also a lot of this is about new business models and new innovations and you know I think as we said early on at the onset of the panel is it is about and your point Jawad around you know partnering with corporations it's an investment opportunity it's it's not seen as a philanthropic effort you know how do you facilitate that um yes Mina and and you know what have you learned through this work you know there's naturally some some challenges and tensions along the way as well so kind of what would you recommend in this process well we're we're absolutely interested in changing the the way the world does business right so these are meant to be models and we ask ourselves you know what is the path to scale for some enterprises they will directly engage customers and they will meet those needs at scale we have companies that have reached over 100 million customers but for many the way they achieve that scale and impact will be by influencing and changing business practices and in fact partnering with corporations so we've just finished a report on corporate ready social enterprises that are helping traditional larger corporations embed inclusion and sustainability in their core business by working directly with social enterprises and as you said gel not through just csr and philanthropy which can be incredibly catalytic but also through their supply chain and through their procurement looking at a much larger pool of capital that could be available through corporate spending and a great way for corporations to bring that inclusion and sustainability right into the heart of their business so we know that it's hard but we actually think there's a lot of misperceptions about how many social enterprises are out there who have prepared themselves to deliver quality scale and really measurable tangible impact that can help corporations meet the commitments that they have so we'd encourage people to check out corporate ready because we've found you know over a hundred stellar examples of where this is happening it is not a dream it's a reality and we hope more folks will really jump on board Fantastic and I think that's almost a nice lead on to just hearing from Alexandra your point of view you know I mean SAP is one of the corporates that Acumen and indeed EY are working closely with on this agenda so maybe talk to us about why and how SAP is really increasingly focused on tackling social inequality and and you know across all aspects of the business you know nationally recognizing the challenges along the way I you know we're listening to Javad and to Yasmina what I found interesting is that they very much highlighted the aspect of this being a journey and that where you started off from maybe 10-20 years ago is not where you are today and this was the same as true for us as well you know when we started our sustainability journey in general and took it more seriously that was about in 2009 interestingly enough it immediately went hand in hand with looking at the social enterprise sector but frankly at that time it was it was based on a direct investment that we were making in the social enterprise incubator in Haiti it was right after the earthquake in Haiti and we were working with Professor Jonas to build up this we wanted to build up an infrastructure for social business in Haiti ran into a lot of challenges frankly at that time we knew absolutely nothing about social entrepreneurship that we knew nothing about the sector it was basically this catalytic moment that that evolved through meeting with Professor Jonas and our then CEO but it was a starting point and what happened afterwards is that there was a small group of people within the company who started to see the how incredibly valuable working with the social enterprise sector could be for the company but I'll be very honest as well that in the first years it was a CSR driven initiative it wasn't integrated into the business we had a really hard time explaining to business leaders what a social enterprise really was and why it would make sense and what the business value would be by partnering or entering a business relationship with social enterprises and that was about I would say a good five six years and what we were doing from our end at that time because we believed so much in it we invested in capacity building right and we believe we invested in building partnerships and networks and that's how we met such incredible organizations like Acumen and the other thing that we just really realized in that time as well and that is something that that persists until today I strongly believe that S&P is a company we are not the experts when it comes to social change we have other expertise we have other core confidence it's obviously with technology but our expertise does not does not sit with social change and once we were able to demonstrate to the business that that expertise was sitting with social enterprises and how social enterprises could create value and benefit to the company to achieve our sustainability goals that's when things started to make sense right that's when things started to click and when it started to really click is when we started looking into the whole topic of social sourcing and social procurement but again this is not something that we we thought of right we went like oh let's start looking into social procurement it was our partners in the social enterprise space who were talking to us about it explaining the business case to us and us realizing you know what this actually makes a lot of sense so the the change or the innovation and the drive came through our partnerships in the social enterprise sector today the focus is heavily on social procurement and social sourcing and the business gets it they understand that this is an incredible opportunity for us to unlock significantly more investment for environmental and social impact than what we can do through philanthropic means only they also understand that this is a way partnering with the social enterprise sector is a way to make sure that our value chains become more responsible more inclusive and actually also less fragile and I think if there's one thing we all learned during COVID-19 is that our value chains are incredibly fragile so and then the third piece of it there's another business aspect for it and that's technology we're not just looking at it from an SAP perspective and how we can change our procurement spend but we're looking at how we can enable our customers to diversify their supply chains through SAP technology so all of the pieces have been starting to come together and now it's sort of become an initiative within SAP that touches procurement the sales organization the development organizations and also DSR and so would you say it's becoming a lot more infused as you know along the journey it's it's because that's a wonderful example and I'd love to get a Jawad's perspective before I get yours Meredith just around you know the partnering that you've undertaken Jawad in building your business you know have you you know the tensions I think have been pretty pretty hard going in the beginning but are you seeing a lot more appetite you know just drawing on the example from from Alexander as well yeah I mean I find it very interesting what Alexander is saying because that was my first question is like let's see let's talk about what's working and what's not working in a place like Buxton we've come a long way again 15 years ago when I would talk to people about social enterprise they would say wait a minute stop stop stop stop let's talk about maximizing profit and let's talk about charity don't mix these things up and I think we've made quite a bit of progress in the last 15 years in a place like Buxton where people are now understanding what this broader context means what we try to set the example one thing which we've done you know one of the things that I believe and I look forward to hearing from the colleagues here is that you know we have an employee benefit trust and so 41 percent of the company is owned by the employees and that means everybody from the CEO myself all the way to the let's say the janitor and everybody in between and has a stake in the company how does that play out or why does that play out I think it goes back to a just mean the same about leadership I am somebody who gets paid slightly I don't say under market in Buxton but when I look at our people who are getting paid above minimum wage they would have to work four years constantly without taking a break to be able to earn what I'm earning in one month and it's it just doesn't sit well with me and how do we how do we create some equity there how do we create some some justice there in this and one of the things we came up with was let's try to create this employee benefit trust where everybody is getting some sort of stake in and and by by way of displaying to others hey this is an option I'm not suggesting everybody does 41 percent we have good shareholders who understood and encouraged and supported wanted to do but taking a step towards really just looking out sometimes we look about the broader ecosystem and forget about our employees and how we're really going to be doing justice to them and how do they make their ends meet at the end of the day right so it's just some something that we were constantly thinking about and trying to also demonstrate to the corporate community in Buxton that's that's yeah that's a that's a great point to reflect on and I'd love to get married at your your thoughts you know I mean I think the you know the council is really starting to drive you know system change but I think that's a it's a great example of the ward around you know the the initiatives that corporates can actually undertake and what are you seeing in terms of how business is coming together and partnering now great great question thanks so much Jill so I think first and foremost systems change really starts with the the individual actions that companies are taking it takes it starts with our agency as as business and public sector leaders and this is the journey that our colleagues here have have spoken about and in that I think we need to keep focusing on progress not perfection so when the council launched in in December of last year we had 25 CEO led organizations who were focused on how do you take a business and make it a tool of inclusion as you are pursuing your profit and we now have over 150 CEO led organizations making north of 400 concrete measurable commitments to actions that they're taking to make capitalism more inclusive so we invite all business leaders to join us in finding ways for our economic system to serve our greatest and most powerful natural resource which is really our people so in that you ask about systems change and in that I think we have to we have to ask all of our companies and leaders to rethink their business models so that inclusion and ESG is woven into that strategy and I think you know Alexander has spoken a bit about that yes Mina I was struck by the way that that you spoke of this as well and how do you not just impact but scale the change that is is needed it really starts with the company's understanding how their value creation can lead to or enable broadly shared prosperity and more dynamic economies than societies to get away from that fragility that we've been we've been speaking about here this work is not prescriptive and in it's really it's unique Jill to to the company so each member they bring their own ideas and they take action that aligns with their particular business model their industry you know their market characteristics and you know for us it's it's the actions that our leaders commit to that makes them a council member but what was missing and the role that the council is working to fill is the sharing of these best ideas and inclusive practices that companies are taking so our our CEOs before they joined the council in many ways they were working in silos and they would be trying different business models or trying different things to see how they can create value not just for the company but in a way that is positive for for people and for for planet so when we're asking them to rethink their model and to donate their their best ideas and actions for this what was missing was a platform where those leaders can share their actions share their innovations and learn from the actions and innovations that their peers are taking whether it's within their same sector or across sectors and geographies so it's really it's the individual actions at scale that I think will bring that systems change that we need and to scale we need to disseminate access to those best ideas and and innovative practices and this is particularly important I think for business leaders in developing markets that are experiencing or will be experiencing high levels of growth in onward years and their decisions will have great bearing on the trajectory of their local and regional economies you know but it's also we talk about the value chain here it's also very important for CEOs who are leading mid cap or smaller companies so for many of these leaders they they are looking for like a central repository of the best in class inclusive capitalism practices that will help drive value for for their companies they may not be the early innovators as some of our industry leading members are at the council but as they see those best practices take shape and they see the action that the council members are are taking they will be the early adopters of those proven inclusive business practices and their actions we hope will impact others now that's a great point sorry go ahead Joanne yes that's really insightful my question is that the 400 CEOs that you have how do they I would imagine there must be some support group now afterwards where they have to answer to their board members like wait a minute we hired you to maximize profit going back to the basics and here you are pitting around with these these these softies you know you need to either straighten up and show us whatever you're doing is really affecting the bottom line or you need to start looking for another job is that changing or it's a sort of a very basic question but I would be interested to know how is that working out and what what are these 400 CEOs giving you guys's feedback so I think I think the way that that markets are valuing companies that are putting ESG at the core of their business strategy we're still in the early stages of that but I do think that that is beginning to to change and when you have a business model that is creating value is creating profit for a company but is doing so in a way that creates stronger and more dynamic economies and societies while reducing their carbon footprint for example that's something that I think shareholders and stakeholders can all be be proud of we see that now and I think most strongly in in how markets and investors are beginning to value companies that have sustainability strategies more so than their peers that have not been taking climate considerations seriously so I do believe that we're at the very beginning stages in our post-COVID environment that markets are beginning to wake up to the fact that you've got to also find those companies who are leading in creating value in ways that lift up people in across our communities people who are able to utilize their talent and that is something that perhaps not this year and perhaps not two or three years down the road but I think increasingly you will see markets reward those companies that incorporate inclusion into their business practices seen them as a tool for stronger and more dynamic companies as well as stronger more dynamic contributors to the societies that we're all striving for and yes Mina what are your thoughts on that I think there's some great points that Meredith is raising yeah I mean I just I really appreciate the idea that there is a need to share knowledge to accelerate this I think we've seen evidence that there's strategic value in building more inclusive business models we've seen some companies benefiting financially there's data and evidence and even anecdotal examples that show why this can be an advantage for companies but the change isn't happening fast enough and I think this idea of creating that space to accelerate learning to create the right structures and frankly to reward that kind of leadership because at the end of the day I think it does sometimes lead harder conversations with a board to explain why someone's thinking a few steps down the road at the real risks that we face not just the immediate short-term financial risks but one of things I wanted to share is that for Acumen you know this concept of inclusive business feels so close to the work that we've done but we realized ourselves that we'd never really examined exactly what that means beyond focusing on the poor so we did this project with EY which was really helpful to kind of define what is an inclusive business and what does it mean to center the poor in every aspect of your business because for us when we started we looked a lot at the products and services and who was buying them but to Jawad's point you've got to look at your employees your governance even investors and how are you building a more inclusive ecosystem so our inclusive business playbook we hope can provide that but ultimately what we realize for ourselves is that the work we've done for 20 years hasn't really been about investing I think our capital has been valuable but it's creating this laboratory for innovation and then being able to talk about you know what did we learn about resilient agriculture about renewable energy access about workforce and creating a more inclusive workforce so that's very much what we're trying to figure out and I think it really mirrors what we're seeing with Meredith's work but on the social enterprise side so that those models are out there both on the corporate side and the social enterprise side and hopefully moving forward we'll have a whole universe of models of where they're working together and how they're bringing their various assets together to drive this bigger transformation that's a great point and I think Alexandra you can speak a bit from a corporate perspective as well what you're seeing the challenges and how you're overcoming some of those issues. Yeah I think I loved Meredith's point when she said progress not perfection right because I think sometimes you can get really bogged down in trying to figure out the right strategy and then you spend a lot of time talking about it creating action plans but then no action is taking place and what has worked for us really well is to actually just put a stake in the ground and say okay this is what we what we're aiming to do and we did that in on the social procurement space with our initiative five plus five by 25 and basically means we're going to shift five percent of our addressable spend towards social enterprises and five percent towards diverse suppliers by 2025. Now do I believe that we will truly get there? Probably not it's an aspiration but it gives us a sense of direction it gives us this north star that tells us here are all the things that we need to do if that's where we want to get to here's all the things that we need to do we need to change our procurement practices we need to change our policies we need to invest in capacity building for social enterprises we might need to invest in market development in certain countries because the social enterprise tech sector might not be as mature yet and and and right so there's a lot of things that you can work backwards from um so sometimes I think it's it's important to do that right to put that stake in the ground and the second thing is there's always so many challenges that you can face but if you build up allies and you find your allies not just internally but especially externally and some of us we're already talking about that a little bit we have learned so much from all of the partners um that we've been engaging with in the last 11 years they've inspired us so much but we're also learning a lot from other corporate players you know we learned a lot from e y we've learned a lot from humor lever from ikea just sharing practices but actually going beyond that I think what I find really exciting at this point in time where we're at today is that corporates aren't just engaging with each other to share know-how and to share learning there's a real desire to drive collective impact through collaboration um and to you know to look at where do we share values where do we share goals um and to add flexibility and a bit of agility into the mix to look at how can we truly come together bring our core competencies together and create what Paul Paulman always says is one plus one is 11 and not just two and that's a great point and I think you know just before we close Meredith you know you you often at the heart of some of the ceo discussions on the pulse of the ceo is you know collectively would just love a perspective there on the role that they're playing oh no thanks John I just want to to say again Alexander you're absolutely right this is this is about an ecosystem of collaboration for us to see the progress that we need and in that for those individual companies the role of the ceo we see is absolutely central to a company adopting inclusive business practices you know the companies that are active in this space have leaders who exert leadership in two directions you know first you must you have to guide the companies um and push against perhaps the organizational inertia to do business differently and then you also have to manage your boards on the the worthwhile trade-offs that come with putting people and sustainability at the core of a business strategy so the ceo they really have to make the business case to their employees to their to their stakeholders to their shareholders going back to Joao's point on why an inclusive business practice is the right way to go we'll make a stronger company a more profitable company over the longer term and that's not always an easy place to be I mean it speaks to the character that Yasmina spoke of earlier it takes courage it takes vision it takes creativity it takes a willingness to learn and make mistakes and also it takes a great deal of grit to see these changes through so the the work of this work of building inclusive businesses it's not easy but it is so rewarding and and that's why we created the council to be this community for leaders to learn from another to be inspired and motivated and challenged by the ideas and actions of their peers to come together and collaborate around key uh includes capital reforms and for each member to do their part and part of this broader change that we need excellent um Joao did you have a final comment there before we close this really powerful session thank you um I would think that uh we look towards uh what can be done uh now moving ahead um I would like to share an example as I mentioned earlier acumen had come in when nobody wanted to invest in a company like AMC they put in 300 000 dollars um fast forward about seven years later a huge real estate giant in the UK worth about four billion pounds came in and bought out acumen stake what they did was they didn't want to come in early and and take take a risk but they saw the company come along a bit and now they've they've come in they've bought 25% they've really helped us come up they're a real estate company but we're just a fraction of what they are in terms of value but in terms of action they treat us just like a part of them and as a part of their their mandate and they've come in and really their their board member comes in is very active and very very aggressive in terms of getting us who we want to get and I think that that's one aspect sitting here in a place like box and when we see somebody wants to do something and in the real estate sector this this entity took this step and I found it to be something very unique that is not very common with big corporates and that's a that's a great example and I I think it resonates with me even in the story that you shared in our our playbook Jawad around where most saw a need for charity and you saw a need for an investment opportunity and then it's this tremendous opportunity to collaborate and partner in this ecosystem approach and I I love the lasting sentiments of it about being progress you know but not perfection I think you know I think that really resonates I think with this discussion today so I really want to thank everybody Alexandra, Yasminah, Jawad and Meredith that's been such an insightful session and I I think I encourage listeners to visit the council's commitment platform and to see the action frameworks and to use the the inclusive business playbook and and you know we'll be sharing insights along the way and we'd love to hear from from you and your thoughts and and thanks for a really fantastic discussion and hope to see you all again very soon thank you all