 Okay, so welcome to today's SOA Centre of Taiwan Studies seminar, and today is our latest session on our Taiwan Indigenous Contemporary Indigenous Lecture Series. We'd like to welcome back Joyce, yeah Joyce teaches in the Department of Ethnic Relations and Cultures in the Indigenous College of National Donghua University in Wali. She did her PhD in University of Lancaster in Sociology, where she focused on tourism, but she wasn't focused on Taiwan's Indigenous issue to something that she developed as a second PhD that she discussed yesterday. So yesterday's talk was quite an anthropological one that looked at Joyce's research, but also her teaching, and it was very kind of inspirational talk. Today's talk is, we're afraid there's a chapter talk, so what we're trying to do is put together a collection of book chapters that look at issues related to Taiwan's Indigenous people that we can use perhaps in a future textbook. And on that note then, let's give Joyce a very big welcome back to SOA. Thank you everyone for coming, and also thank you to SOA in depth and Biyu to invite me, and also Jia Yuan, who worked very hard to make this event happen. And today actually this talk is going to become a book chapter, so what I'm going to talk about will be full and cultural identity. So when I write, I probably will put more theoretical stuff, but my talk today was still focused on my research, so I will use kind of cat study to share with you, and you are welcome to raise any of questions when I talk, because personally I like a more interactive approach, so feel free to raise the questions. But before now, I would like to ask how many people have been to Taiwan? Yes, okay. And how many people have been to try so-called Taiwanese Indigenous food? Okay, good. We have, lastly you have, you definitely have. Okay, so what kind of Indigenous food can you remember you have? We've got more things here. I don't remember the names. Yeah, a lot of kind of wild vegetables. A lot of river fish. River fish? Yeah. I mean, I was living with Indigenous people as well, so I was eating a lot of them. On the coast we had flying fish, bamboo and bamboo shoots that were kind of sticky rice. Yeah, and sticky rice. Yes, sticky rice, like very good with rice, and snails. Snails, yes. I think you have more focus on, because it's the east coast. Actually, that's what I'm going to talk about. Yeah, so you're already thanking for providing some background knowledge. Yeah, flying fish, fish, bamboo rice, sticky rice. So here, and my talk is food ethnicity and cultural identity. So staging and performing Indigenous food, Taiwanese Indigenous restaurants and food. We have a human geography, so because of the restaurant, I will talk about some space too. Okay, and I'm connected to how food has performed. Okay, so here, this is the background about Taiwanese Indigenous cultures, and so far we have 16 recognized tribes. Some people still think Taiwan only have nine tribes, because we have this cultural park called nine tribes, cultural park. But you can see it's growing, it's the growing thing is because it's also kind of separated in some way, because for example, some of the Ataia tribe and they recognize themselves as Daluku tribe. So this is coming, and I'm sure very soon we might have another one called Prang Indigenous Pinpuzu. So it will be more, yeah. But in Taiwan, we have 23 million populations, and only 2% population of Indigenous people. So you see, it's still very minority in terms of Chinese, yeah. But in terms of Taiwanese Indigenous people and culture, why it matters? Because it's not only Taiwan, it's related to all these ancient cultures, yeah, and it's the most northern part. And what I focus is here, I didn't see, yeah. Anyway, I focus on the east coast, yeah. But before my talk, this is probably helped me to think about the important relation about food, and then some anthropology, some sociology, some even geography. So for example, food as a signifier, yeah, and identity builder. So what I'm talking about probably is not really new, but not many people use Taiwanese Indigenous food as an identity builder, not to make this kind of Taiwanese Indigenous or Indigenous being seen, okay. And then also, Meridopolis, Meridopolis use food as a communication, a system of communication, and then this is a communicator insider and outsider, the different cultures background that use food to communicate. And I still hope from the cultural study perspective, this is identity politics, how can we address ourselves as Indigenous people, yeah. So there's different issues about especially this, and still hold for me, even I regard as myself, some people regard me as a sociology, and I kind of more think my research is more about cultural studies. It's more cultural study approach to look at food, how food can be an identity, and how these differences can be addressed through all these different issues. And then geography, but I also use this kind of critical discourse of cultural landscape, what do we mean by cultural landscape, yeah. And I don't know if I ask you, what can you represent of England or Britishness, yeah. And that means you have your Welsh, yes, so except the pronunciation, the language, what else can you show to people that my mom is Welsh, so I am Welsh. Welsh language, yes. Yeah, I think language is probably the obvious marker, cultural marker. But also if I ask you about Welsh food, yeah, it's difficult. It's difficult, isn't it? It's also difficult in Taiwan, because the Taiwan history, we have a lot of migrating, like the history combined with the people immigrant from China. And so here, now you probably, I think the only thing you can tell very clearly is Taiwan bubble tea, right? Taiwan bubble tea. But most of the time you hear about Chinese food. You don't hear about Taiwanese food, not to mention about indigenous food, yeah. And all this kind of food creates something which people actually see, gosh, this is very, well, fish and chips, that's very English, right? But we won't consider it's being high class compared with French cuisine. And how, this is all compared with a lot of history. And then we go back to that. And how about indigenous people when they try to make distinction between kind Taiwanese and indigenous people, and how they use their food to create this different cultural landscape for people to see the differences. Yeah, okay. And then Judith Butler, well, I like her, yeah, you probably can. And then her concept about is about gender, and how gender has been performed, okay? And I use this concept combined with French material about happiness. For me, this performance, it's not, if you want to be called yourself as an Amis or indigenous people, you're not saying that, okay, language, you also kind of perform for other people to be recognized, oh, you are different from Taiwanese or Han Chinese, yeah. So this kind of performing it, and I use food, and how food, or dishes, or how space, how this different material culture as a mean to perform who they are. Yeah, so that's kind of performance theory. And material culture, I also influenced by Apodurai, and also Daniel Miller. Is he still somewhere here? Daniel Miller? Well, I think his material culture, the concept about material culture, which is also influenced me when I think about food as a very important material culture for people to, in our everyday life. And that's also to make distinction between you, I mean, or us, and them, yeah. So it could become a collective, it's become a collective, but at the same time, it also can be a little bit individual differences, because we always have homemade food, which is very my mom, which is different from your mom, and my mom's cooking. So food for me is a lot of relative to a lot of materiality, memory, or narrative, how people address, yeah. So this is a little bit like theoretical things for people to think, yeah. And, okay, so I am standing for Indigenous restaurant, yeah. So for me to pick up, for me to pick up Indigenous restaurants and food as a research site or a research text, okay, because it's so my approach, as you said, the theory I use is very interdisciplinary, which including anthropology and also sociology and geography, etc. But also it's it's not perfect data, which I actually, I've been to Taiwan since 2004, and I actually started, like, go to eat the Indigenous food, but at that time I didn't thought I'm going to do any research on that. I just walk in and to start to familiar with the people and the food, yeah. And then I'll tell you more, and then I do witness the changes about how they present and how they talk about food. So all this food, the changes also refactor the social changes, yeah. And how this kind of the relative to cultural meaning is and how Indigenous people performed. And this fish probably Douglas can recognize, right? Fish with salt, yeah. And also this is all from like, betel nuts, betel nuts, trunk, and they made it. So, and also like eating and drinking, how they practice. And this is also like emotional embodiment for the people who study here from China, from overseas, I think food to map your home state, right? Especially study in UK, which is not famous for their cuisine, right? So, I'm sorry to say that, but it's kind of stereotype also, yeah. So emotional and also especially every festival related to certain food to eat, right? For example, we just have this Dragon Boat Festival and you eat this kind of rice dumpling, right? And that's all related to maybe back to home stick and then special festival or here, Christmas dinner, you eat certain type of turkey or meat, whatever, yeah. And also how people choose the food, let's say what they are to. Some people decided to become vegan because environmental friendly or their lifestyle, et cetera. So, it's also show the test, yeah. And that's actually very interesting. Some people do research on what the, seems to be vegetarian or vegan, they are much higher social class compared because not many walking class people are vegetarian. So, that's kind of interesting, related to food choice and the lifestyle and the social class, yeah. And also this is related to this talk, the main issue about talking about identity and how we represent, yeah, through food and the choices of restaurant and how that can represent who you are. And this paper, I actually, when I did the research, I also interviewed consumers, but this paper is going to be focused on restaurant owners, okay, yeah. So, here, research science and informants. Here, the records is the East Coast of Taiwan, where I did most of my research, yeah. And in Taiwan, there are six indigenous tribes in East Coast. And then most of the population, Amis, the first one, Amis is the most population of indigenous people in Taiwan, yeah. And Amis, yeah, we have Amis here. And so, this is the two poster and I choose 12 indigenous restaurants, which I think is only one owner is not indigenous people, but he was the kind of NGO organization. And this restaurant now, they are not working anymore, but they have different where they use the tour, like people come and join them and doing all this walking together, yeah, and produce their own foods, yeah. And the ages between 40 to 68 and the gender, most of them still, the 12, there's nine owners that are female, and I think that's interesting, yeah, female as a boss, they are here. And I don't know, is that because in the East Coast, Amis, yeah, so there's, in my research, I didn't focus on that part, but I think gender issue would be an interesting topic to talk about this food and identity too. And this is kind of poster I show you, but I'll tell you more. And I do have 20 to record the interviews, so today you will see a lot of, you're going to see a lot of interview, the quotation, so I use for them to speak for themselves when they talk about why they run the restaurant and, and of course also informal chat. And this research I start really start doing serious interviews in 2006, and I'm still going back to the restaurant, and now what I'm doing is sometimes I walk in the kitchen with them, and that's the best way to chat. So I also have some kind of informal chats with, and also they will ask because they know I'm so coding expert. So, and so sometimes they will ask for me to try it. What do you think? And I'll give them some idea. So it's become kind of working together, not the only, so I want to reduce this kind of power relationship between a researcher and a research that's always my, my research ethic and concerns. Yeah. So far, okay. Yep. So follow me to come to Taiwan in this restaurant. Yeah. So this, as I said, yeah, it's done from 2006, but this today I show you is about probably the past about 2006 to 2012. And this is actually made me to think about where the food come from. And that's how I have the talk yesterday, to continue doing all this. Yeah. So this research and I also the in depth interview, I also have used this course analysis, how they now even I also collect the indigenous each restaurant, if they have a business card, they have posture, they have websites, I also use those. Yeah. So the different, the visual also visual text. I also take the pictures. It's like most of people now taking picture of food before you eat. So your camera defaults first. Yeah. And then sign and signs and cultural symbols. Yeah. And how they create and also how the X atmosphere, how they create this kind of say, if you go to a Thai restaurant, you probably will see, what will you see? If you go to a Thai restaurant, what will you see in the restaurant? Yeah. The correction. Yes. What would you see? Elephant. Yes. It's probably will see an elephant and go to maybe a temple, whatever. Right? Yeah. And then for Chinese, yeah. And for Chinese restaurant in obviously Chinese restaurant, there's a lot of restaurant use like a temple light, right? No, no restaurant in Taiwan look like that. But obviously Chinese restaurant will look like a temple or the ray or the gold or the gold, the dragon, something like that. And that's fairly, very kind of Chinese, you know, and then Taiwanese indigenous restaurant try to make different from those like different symbols. And that's also what I focus on, right? Yeah. So this is what I'm talking about cultural landscapes. And I'll show you some images later. So first, I look at the name of the restaurant. So 12 restaurants, okay, their name. So they use some of them will use or say Amis indigenous restaurant. So they will tell you they are Amis or they will tell you they use collective indigenous identity set indigenous restaurant. They will say that. And then some of them will use some of that pain. This one I call pain indigenous culture. So they will try to say at that moment they wouldn't distinction. There are other national tribes that will use this collective identity. And then also two of them will use their own names. Yeah. And some of names, which actually doesn't mean anything to most of the customers. We will see some examples. Okay. And then some of them they will like use so-called like tree house, you know, tree house or the red roof. That doesn't really link. Yeah. But they have their way to say, Oh, they will also have tell you this dilucid restaurant. Yeah. So we know we come to a dilucid restaurant. And I will ask them how that different with Ataya restaurant. And some of them sometimes they couldn't say, Oh, just different. But some of them actually come up with a great narrative. Yeah. So let's see. And this for example, yeah, they kind of say something like there's a must say, the name is Madaguru tribal name, and it's romanization. And this for Taiwanese, a lot of people don't know like indigenous tribal language. They don't have a written system. They only have oral. Yeah. And you come in here. You can see here. Yeah. So it's interesting. She says some thought it was French, because there's a place called must say. Yeah. So let's go. It's a French cuisine. Yeah. So, so, but she doesn't know. She said, I feel strange. I hear my daughter told me there's a place in French called must say. So many hundreds of these people don't know that we, that's many indigenous people use romanization to study Bible. Yeah. So actually, if people are interested, I think indigenous and religions is always a very interesting topic. And some people are doing research on that too. There's already some wonderful interesting research. Yeah. So many indigenous people can read Chinese at all. So for this many years, some of them, I think double is for linguistic, you might be interested, some of the elder, they still only speak their tribal language. But some of them are very interesting. They are Mandarin Chinese, even so called much, much standard in mind. They speak a very, very good Mandarin Chinese. And it's because they went to church every Sunday or every year. So here, so it's imagine the esotericism or and also a means. Okay. Then we can see here. Oh, see, this is this image to show you because for women, for Daluk women to have a tattoo on their face. This is so they use they actually exalted themselves to fix the stereotype of our hand cultural imagination of the people. But this must say to that's her name. Yeah. But a lot of Taiwanese doesn't know and the tourists or the customer, they don't know, but they use four way time. Yeah. And it's kind of favor, indigenous favor, all this four way time. And the interesting things or we will talk about later, there's a lot of issues because even we now have system twice. A lot of indigenous, this kind of indigenous favor or test and the and the meal, they almost look the same. Well, later I'll show you because it's become a set meal and Taiwan is very small. So food travel, people travel. Yeah. And that's the interesting topic. So this is naming indigenous. They use the name to tell people I'm different from this kind of Han Chinese restaurant. Okay. But people only see this see they are indigenous. Otherwise, and this and here, they say the look good. So naming and unfortunately this, this poster is being damaged by Typhoon couple years ago, but she's going to read to make that again. Yeah. But this photo group people for a tattoo woman to put it here. It's actually very interesting. So for visual cultural analysis, there's a lot of this image say a lot. Yeah. So if you are interested and I, we have a lot of food study students here study food and I think image, you need to have a visual culture. Yeah. And you need to have certain skill to talk about that. Yeah. So and then so also it's a indigenous food or restaurant could be our economic resource resource for them. Yeah. And a lot of people, they are not intended to run a restaurant at the beginning. Is it because they run a guesthouse and people want food. So let's start inviting them to come and eat with them. And then that's gradually some guests suggest us to sell food too. So this kind of capitalism may start kind of conveying into this indigenous society. Yeah. And then we'll do it and give us more income. So simple reason just want to make more money. So some of them as economic resources. Yeah. And see. And then we cultural center. This is the guy who they actually as a cultural center. And then they say we didn't provide me at the beginning, but it did. Let's get up. I forgot. But indigenous food, indigenous food, I have indigenous food. And it's getting popular. So we followed the flow and have studied studying indigenous food. We went to catch the indigenous, the other indigenous food. So copy, learning, learning to be indigenous. It's actually very interesting, you know. Yeah. And then, then we create our own specialty and we are more just except those cultural items. And they start putting something to make the atmosphere more like indigenous restaurant. Yeah. So the culture is learned. Yeah. So tourism in some way, sometimes it's just, it's like it can bring the day culture back. Yeah. And of course, it could be destroyed a place too. Yeah. And indigenous food as an educational tool. And then some indigenous restaurant. This is the Amis. And then we'll tell you. Yeah. Yeah. Now I hope that's mean how are you? So you are not come to, come to consume the food. You also kind of chance for you to learn the basic culture. And that is also a selling point for the restaurant. And also, this restaurant, both owner are retired teachers. So they know they got a plenty of knowledge about indigenous plants, indigenous, how they use the wild vegetables. And they will put, they will grow, they make their, the restaurant outside the garden. It's like a herb garden or edible garden. And then they will put a sign to introduce people, the plants and how they use that. So it's become like you went to a garden center and to learn how to use this plant. So they say, we are doing a cultural education for our living ecology. And we are pleased to share our Amis culture to our guests. We grow all indigenous tree and bar so that people can see and touch our culture. See and touch use different senses. Yeah. For people, it's not only to consume the food into their body, but also different senses smell, touch. And that's this kind of embodiment, embodied experience for people to like embody our culture as well. So they have, so for this, probably because they are teachers. So they have this kind of attention of education and through that, people will know about Amis culture. Yeah. So it's not the restaurant. It's not only a restaurant for them. It's an education or platform for people to understand Amis culture. Yeah. Okay. It's also an intellectual platform. And as a content zone, yeah, this is very post-colonial concept about content zone. But for this, yeah, they say, yeah, to me, indigenous restaurant is never just a place to sell food. I hope sooner indigenous food people can respect our indigenous cultures. Indigenous people are now people who can drink, sing, dance, and know how we play basketball only. They have many good values in our culture that kinds of things can learn from us. I hope the customer can get some ideas of our ways of living. So here, use the restaurant in order to break the stereotype for indigenous people. So they have a very strong intention of what the restaurant can offer. Yeah. And that's to me, it's interesting. And I have to say, when I start my research at the beginning, when I talk and chat with them, it surprised me because they are such a way, know how to say things and to share. And that's how it gets to me to know, gosh, I want to get these more things done, yeah, for people really to understand. So it's not only a restaurant for people to eat food. They've got more way. And for me, so this is kind of eating matters and eat, restaurant can be, the food can be a weapon for them to, that's my one of the argument of this paper, food can be an indigenous cultural weapon for them to take back their cultural rights. Yeah. So see, and I think indigenous restaurant give them a chance to contact with our culture. Yeah. This is a cultural weapon fighting position and the other strikes back. Yeah. I think for some anthropologists, you know, Joey Henry, who did the research on Japan. And then she was really do a lot. And one of the thing is that the audience strikes back. I highly recommend a book. Yeah. It's not only talk about food. It's also talking about how this kind of ancient culture, how this back to this and compete with this Western society. And best she focus on Japan. So this is, so we use indigenous food to talk back to Han Chinese people, Taiwanese people. Yeah. Food can be used as a weapon, which is like doing a social movement or being involved in with many, many indigenous environmental and social movements. But the result has been disappointing. When I return to India and work together with my own community, I gradually get a sense of subjectivity. I have realized that if our own responsibility to pass the culture, speed of choose the museum and that culture, which won't help indigenous people however indigenous restaurant give job opportunity to our people. We also challenge our culture more because of indigenous restaurants. Yeah. This is actually for me when I was interviewed and heard about this. It's hit my heart, actually. Yeah. And I said to myself, I definitely have to write down this. And if you can read Chinese, I'm happy to send you my Chinese paper. I do have a Chinese paper on similar like this. So if you're interested and yeah. And I also have continued research about talking about this kind of tourism as a special event and this everyday life, this extraordinary and everyday life and what in everyday life what indigenous people they do eat in their everyday life if you're interested. And this culture as a weapon and fighting position and the other strikes back. Yeah. I have more so far, but I, is that, can you follow it or any questions? Yes. Yeah. And this is probably not only for Taiwanese indigenous people. When I travel, I also notice a lot of like so-called indigenous in my quality, they were used different things. Even material culture, for example, the dress, the clothes, yeah, the music, the dance. Yeah. Yes. Well, quick question. So are hang people or coming and copying these restaurants and are there any pretenders, people coming and pretending to be? Yes. Because it's very popular. Yeah. But then, yeah, some of the, especially in East Coast, like five star hotel, there's one in indigenous in Da Lugu National Park. There's a five star hotel. They also offer indigenous food. But some people, but they don't have that, you know, I will talk about later because who cook the food is important. And grows it. Yeah. Are you indigenous people? If you're not, that's a little bit different. So I'm not meaning appropriation, I guess, but for commercials. Yes. Well, I think you're related to this authenticity. Each also authenticity is very important, too. But for me, my research after my research in tourism, I already don't talk about authenticity because everything in tourism context under that context is performance. So I use performance idea rather than authenticity. Yeah. But that's debatable. You can, you can, and then one being in China, China's government, he have a paper called we think authenticity and address the issue about authenticity in tourism context. Yeah. So if you're interested, and I just attend, actually another talk in China in May, he now talking about freshness. They use freshness. And I think that's a brilliant interesting idea talking about, because also indigenous food in Taiwan, they will use this concept. It's very fresh because we just pick up this morning. Yeah. And then it's fresh, we just caught that in the river or on the sea. Yeah. So, so I think that's kind of interesting connected. Yeah. Any more questions? Can I just ask about your definition of indigenous restaurant? Yes. Yes. Because you mentioned that some of the owners are Han. No. Yeah. In this research, only one. Yeah. Only one. And the reason I include in his is because he work in the cultural center, the cultural center, which he's actually like me, even I'm Han Chinese, right? But I become, I'm not saying fact, but I'm kind of indigenous people regardless of indigenous studies. Yeah. And he is the one who's been working with indigenous people for over 20 years. And they are cultural center, wrong, this kind of kind of cafe for people. That's why I include him. Yeah. But mine, the good question, because in this study, there's many restaurants, right? And when I identify as indigenous restaurant, the owner have to be indigenous. And then also themselves have to think they are indigenous restaurant. Because some people will say, oh, we're not only still indigenous food, we are just restaurant. And then that's not a thing I'm talking about. And also, I also exclusively those one in the hotel. In East Coast, you can have indigenous favor from way time too. That's not what I'm talking about. Yeah. Patrick, just my question originally was how did you survive a child, a restaurant, a indigenous scheme? Yeah. That's also because after I, I think when, you know, when I back to Taiwan, I will teach at Dong Hua. I have so many visitors, including Leslie. Yeah. So I have friends come to Taiwan to visit me or my family come to East Coast to visit me. And I don't want them to have this Italian food or Beijing food. I want them to experience this kind of indigenous food, which is different. So, and then gradually, you know, I have all this and then, and then I kind of feel down and choose this 12. Yeah. Okay. I will run about why I choose them. Yeah. But I'm not detailed on this. And then also indigenous as a tourist experience. Yeah. So this is actually the one you provide. So this is my husband and I are retired teachers. Yeah. So they want to have for people that experience indigenous food as a different tourist experience. Yeah. And then also things like I'm an indigenous myself and I have tourists. I always cook indigenous food for my friend and gradually become a career. Yeah. So they, a lot of them is gradually because indigenous people have this kind of shared culture. They will, they will invite you come. Maybe Douglas know when you were doing your field work that you're gonna come and join us, come and join us and have this hospitality. So, so they gradually become, so it's great to see people are having a good time and busy me and eating our food. Yeah. So, so indigenous food has a consuming geography too. It surprised me in Taiwan, even if it's a small island, you can travel the whole island in one day. And there's still so many people haven't been to Hualien. So Hualien might, it's a place for people to think they say it's a back mountain. It's like Hoshan or it's the last pure land in Taiwan because it's a last industrial area. And they also have this, some of them have romanticized about Hualien because, and also now because the air pollution and the west coast and Hualien, the fresh air, actually it's not yeah, and then the mountain, the water, the landscape. There's a truck, a lot of people, so see many tourists told me that eating indigenous meal is one of the authentic experience of visiting Hualien. So when they come to Hualien, they want something different and then indigenous food for them is this. And then it's help them to collect their experience of visiting Hualien. And then we display our vegetables on the counter so people can take many pictures as they want. Yeah, so they know what tourists want. And so this kind of vegetable will bring back freshness of Hualien and they can get the type A. But actually now in indigenous, you can have in the so-called indigenous vegetables, especially wild vegetables, you can buy that in the west coast because we have this kind of e-shopping and people try to help indigenous, yeah. But to eat, because it's like you can have fish and chips everywhere, but for people to eat in England, especially in London or somewhere in the coast, would be their freshness or Englishness experience, yeah. So indigenous and healthy food, this is a healthy related to nature, related to how the discourse of healthy is also very important, yeah. And then for now, we know with all this organic food and all this, and indigenous people seems, yeah, see we eat various things that also use, they use, imply also this discourse of nature, discourse of nature and healthy too. So everything is direct on nature and it's very healthy. And we eat a lot of fish and seafood. I think we are much healthier than those who eat so much meat. Since we pick up wild vegetables from nature, yeah, it doesn't contain chemicals. So they also have this discourse. But if you use the alive experience, indigenous people are not living longer than high power years. But this discourse, people seems a step, never doubt, yeah. Okay. But the healthy food, indigenous is a healthy food. And of course lifestyle, performing nature and traditional ecology knowledge, yeah. I mean people, they would say, I mean people eat mountain and sea, Shanghai, that is Shanghai. And many goldfish and women go pick up wild vegetables, we eat everything, yeah. I mean people do eat everything. They have us, they have say, and I think Douglas said you mentioned about snails. And snails are means a specialty and a special way of preparing it. And you pick up and then you let them put it in the cage for a few days so they will come up with all this. So it's actually, so they will say it's very dangerous and no problem at all, yeah. Then they will say nature belongs to anyone and it's our fridge too. Our culture is to share. So this concept about the indigenous culture and then especially I mean people they always say like the ocean, mountain, field, it's their fridge, yeah, yeah. So this kind of concept, yeah. Yeah. And they will use some material culture, for example bamboo, stone, whatever, to make their, create this sense, an atmosphere of indigenous. I'll show you the banana leaf, whatever, I'll show you some pictures, yeah, like this. They even put a wire ball, the wire pick, the ball into this kind of concept for people to feel all, it's real. And this is mainland, yeah. And this is actually kind of a family tour, but they were put out to increase this kind of nature, yeah, atmosphere. It's very artificial, but then, yeah. I think that's the dunk, right? Yeah. And then, yeah. Also they use art, yeah. By the way, this is banana. If you never see a real banana growing in the trees, yeah. Okay. So, and they use a lot of banana leaves to, as a plate, yeah, used from the nature, and then amuse the coffee. And that, you probably see is very, it doesn't look like the Taiwanese indigenous. The painting is, you know, so when I ask them, I say, oh, they want to have a beautiful woman and a beautiful woman for them, the standard is from Western. So they kind of draw in this. So this kind of thing, yeah. And actually, I told them that this is problematic. It doesn't, and I think now they repair it. Yeah, they do repair them. So this is kind of it. And they use a lot of coffee too. A lot of coffee, whole coffee, yeah. And this, yeah. This is amuse, traditional amuse costumes, yeah. You can wear this in taking pictures, some of the restaurant, yeah. Yeah. To make you feel like you are part of them. And then see, you can see bamboo, it's probably the most used for a lot of decorations to make that is sense of nature. This restaurant is still near the Bibi Lake, and it's still around. The business is still going very well. And this is stone. Fuding, Fuding is amuse fish, yeah. So that is Fuding, the Chinese character, fish here, and all this bamboo. And then because of typhoon, yeah. Sometimes the damage, and then bamboo is easy to rebuild, yeah. So they use the material to this kind of sense of nature, yeah. Create this kind of nature, even in a city or in a restaurant, you know. Yeah. So it's activism for tourists, the cultural image, right? So for some tourists, it's an indigenous restaurant. And I also, because I work with them, sometimes I would lay an interview, and then there's some customer will come. And you will see the tourists or some customers will say, wow, it's really different. But actually, it's not much different, but I don't know what that intersecting, yeah. So they say, most of the ones I want these tourists want something exotic and different. So the presentation is important. And as long as it looks different and exotic, and I think they are eating authentic indigenous food, most of the dishes in the restaurants are not the way we eat at home. We eat very simple and beautifully spread like that at home. So they actually have, they know that, they're conscious that it's performance. They are not like they eat at home, because it's simple. But when they present to tourists or to the customers, they know how to display things beautifully. Yeah. And this is, so is this authentic? Yeah. Right. It's performance, right? Yes. So here. And see, this is from north to south, from east to coast. If you go to a lot of indigenous restaurants, you definitely will have this barbecue pork everywhere. You can have this salty fish covered with salt, heavy salt, and then you barbecue it, and then you take out that skin out. So you can have that too. You can have that in Alishan. You can have that in Dabuco National Park. Yeah. And then some of them will set that kind of set meal. Yeah. So for me, it's become, you don't really see the difference. But then when you interview them, they've got their story to talk about. They have their own narrations. They have their discourse. And that's far end. That's the Chinavu I was talking about. And it's very similar like a Chinese rice dumpling, like a zongzi. Yeah, a Chinavu. And this is a fresh fish. Yeah. So now with this kind of, become unified, what I call like, like standardized, yeah, standardized indigenous food. Now people also realize that. So now this dog come out with something which more like do it yourself. For you to experience, you made this, you put the salt on the fish. So it's not really the dishes. It's the experience. Yeah. So this in tourism, this experience tourism is, it's now a train. So people not want to just do nothing. They want to engage. And the more they can engage, the more authenticity they experience, they fail. Yeah. Okay. So, so this is just to give you some and see here, it's been blue again, use this so-called nature. And then the display, normally they use the fresh things, yeah, to show to other people, yeah. And perform indigenous by others. Also they will use, accept them. They also use media. And now Facebook, when I do my star research, it's fast book, it's not popular yet. Yeah. But there's news media, they use abilities, and they will put a newspaper, they will put out a newspaper or the president, the former president has been visited them, and they will show the pictures. So I'll show you some. And then probably people don't know Jackie Wu, Wu Zhongxian. Yeah. It's a, in Taiwan, probably everybody know him. Yeah. So, so, so the picture with Jackie Wu will be one of the, one of the advertisement for the restaurant. Yeah. So, yeah. And the TV program see this. And then there's also certificate to see, you will get the first, the number one prize for this indigenous to show you. And there's some famous scholar, which we probably don't know, but they have their name, that's from Harvard University, America. So, famous university, and there's some like a celebrity. And they will, a lot of indigenous restaurant also have a wall like that. Yeah. So, that show that how good their restaurant. So, they use the other markers of their indigenous. Yeah. Yeah. And it's very old time. This is very interesting. This is saying, so they also know, most of the Taiwanese, they have no idea about indigenous food. So, they say, whatever, they don't understand our culture. So, whatever we fit them, they eat. Anyway, authentic indigenous. This is the, the, the, never the interview when they say that. So, so they, sometimes they hire people from Thailand, work with them because they are human. And they once, yes. Yeah. And they put, and it's look like indigenous people, nobody will doubt. Because you have no idea. It's horrible. It's horrible, yes, but it's business. It's business. Yeah. It's business. And it's a globalization. To be fair, how many Japanese restaurants have been to London with the staff? Yes. What's wrong with staff? Yes. Yeah. So, this is some trouble agents will say, why you put the indigenous clothes just for the, for their tourists so they can take pictures. Yeah. I'll show you some pictures. Yeah. See, his wife actually is from Hong Kong. And once you put out these clothes, you are a miss. Yeah. So, this is actually very post-colonial. We think the dark skin or the black mask, whatever, but no. Yeah. This is, once you perform the thing, it just, all this materiality, she's original from Hong Kong. And now, because her husband is a miss. And she knows much better now because she's introduced the thing. Yeah. And I can tell from that accent. So I said, where are you from? And she's actually, because I've become French, she's like, oh, I'll tell you quickly, I'm from Hong Kong. Yeah. But when she dressed like that, I can't tell. Yeah. It's only from her accent. I can tell that she's from Hong Kong. But when she wears that, you know, so it's actually, that's why I abandoned the concept of authenticity. To me, it's performance. It's her performativity. Yeah. And this is a miss. Yeah. I know actually this lady, I knew them, but this is a miss. And this is like you, this is a devil's boat. And we put our train all together. So all this, yeah. And this is our government to promote our tourism. Yeah. So this is what I talked about. And I see if you can read Chinese here, that's the site. Yeah. I was very proud of these pictures. Yeah. And you can see more, we have a Hello Kitty train. Yeah. So this is the concept about government trying to promote and I think this QT, this Kawaii culture. Yeah. And before there was time, these indigenous people, they use the indigenous people to mark the difference of attraction. Right? Yeah. And see here, this is more exotic. Yeah. With banana, but the face and the clothes. And this is facial tattoo. This is so all the picture I took from the indigenous restaurant. And as I said, and this, this is kind of dialogue. This is, and see, they also offer like in the inflight magazine that introduced the restaurant. So that's become, and this is all again, people as cultural objects. Yeah. So for this show, so called this lady lived up to 104. Yeah. And it's interesting when people interview her, what is your secret of long life? She has a secret here. Unfortunately, she passed away, but she has a tattoo. That means she's a good weaver. She needs to know really good. And if she has this, that means she is really, really a high tech, technique. Yeah. And that is, they changed that because I told them, I said, this is really, I don't feel comfortable. Yeah. And I think that's because her husband might this Western style. That's makes his own fantasy. Okay. So here, indigenous tourism. So I'm going to summarize here. Indigenous, this is indigenous tourism. Of course, that's for more link. It's always the link with indigenous tourism. And this is also kind of promoting cultural industries. And now they try to do more creative industry. They come, come by with something which, which like this, this is an artist. And then they make different things. Yeah. And the organic and health indigenous is also arguments, right? Yeah. In some way, they're kind of self presenting themselves as other, which is different from many Taiwanese. So this kind of set self ordering. I think it's also very important issues too. I did criticize a bit of this. Yeah. But as a business strategy, if it works, then it works, right? Yeah. So indigenous culture as a foreign culture is active food is still for most of the tourists. It's like that. So they want to test, they want to experience this difference. Yeah. And eating is political act. Yes. For some people, yes, to consume and when Taiwan political situation is like the people who support Taiwan independence, they don't go to so-called a Beijing restaurant, Sichuan restaurant. They'll go to Taiwan, Thai side, Taiwan Taiwanese restaurant and also they go for the indigenous restaurant. Yeah. So they don't go to this kind of the high Chinese food. Yeah. And of course, for Taiwan, for indigenous restaurant become popular. That's also reflected to this all the global trend about the slow food movement. Yeah. This slow life, slow eating because it takes time. For example, the barbecue, for example, the fish, it took ages, it took time for them to prepare. So it's all linked with these people one. And this fits also a lot of people from Taipei, from West Coast to East Coast. They think Taiwan, the volume is slow. So they want to experience kind of slowness. Yeah. And food, as I say, food can be a weapon to get the right to interpreting their own culture and their own cultural identity too. Yeah. And perform an indigenous. Yeah. There's so many things, vegetable, animals, you know, wine, wine, wine, sorry, master. And then they put sticky rice, et cetera. Yeah. And food presentation and ways of cooking. Yes. And for, there's a burning rock like this. Yeah. So this is kind of set meal, right? Yeah. And now, see, you can tell if you can be Chinese, this talking also about cocktail. Yeah. Use meanwhile to make a cocktail. And that's also fixed a lot of people's fantasy. Yeah. And then some, all these restaurants still very popular in Hualien, yeah, floating. And the sign for me, also the issue about hybridity, I'm interested in this, the culture, it's not, for me, all the culture is kind of mingled together nowadays, even in indigenous culture too. So you take a bit of this, a bit of that. And the popular indigenous restaurant in Taiwan from my observation, those owners have a trend for the western style, they've been working in other restaurants, and they come by with this creativity from their traditional food and made that sense of beauty, and that made their restaurant become so popular. Yeah. Yeah. And then food in action, it's a strategy opportunity and performing this kind of cultural meaning. And of course, it's a tourist attraction. And it's also helped them, the cultural survival, and then return this uniqueness and intercultural communication. And a lot of restaurants, because they display all the different ingredients, material, or the objects. So it's become like living museum. People can really see, touch, smell, and then eat. So they experience the something which they like, experience like a museum like. And of course, it's very expressive cultures. And for Taiwanese indigenous restaurant, it's also very interesting to see one is kind of paying indigenous, this collective identity. And then sometimes they also use their individuality like, oh, I'm from Boonong. So this Boonong, the way we barbecue is different from Amish people. But they're also like no rising power indigenous eating culture and how they practice. And in terms of barbecue, Boonong, and in Zouzu, in Alishan, the Zou tribe, they get different. And they will come up with all their way, how it's different. And food in action as a side of all here, it could be a distinction, distinction you and them and us. Or it's also image making, self-definition, cultural maker, and also sense of belonging. So all this, I think this is also related to all the food, if you're interested, all these issues like identity marker and discussive space or identity politics. And of course, performing as a necessity or this kind of anti stereotype or enforced stereotype. I hope you enjoy. Bon appetit. Thank you. Thanks, George. Again, another fascinating talk and I've got loads of questions. Let me just start with one that I'm particularly curious about. And that's about the owners of these restaurants. About what, sir? The owners of the restaurants. Could you talk a little bit about their kind of life stories? How did they end up running these kind of restaurants? You mentioned one case where you've got two retired teachers. You mentioned another one who may be involved in social movement. Yes. To what extent are these university graduates who lived in the big cities and then decided to come back? Could you just talk a little bit about that? Yeah, thanks for that question. Yeah, the owner of the restaurant, actually, for this 12 restaurant, I think there's two retired teachers, right? And there's also other retired teachers. So they also have this cultural capital to turn the restaurant into a place for people to learn their cultures. But at that time, when I did the research, except the three, none of them have a college degree. Yeah, let me put it this way. And you are very interested to notice that nowadays, because I've been doing it followed up or this, yeah, and we have more, actually, also after this research, in Hualien, in East Coast, there are more indigenous restaurants. And you're right, they are wrong by college graduates. Yeah. And there are, they are now, for some of them, they've really been, for me, back to here first, the owners of restaurants in my study, some of them has been working in a city. And then because the parents sick, so they have to move back to their village. And that's how they start with the restaurant. And some of them, as I said, some of them, they never have experience or running a restaurant, or they are not intentioned, want to be, but because they are guesthouse and people want the food. So gradually, they start cook. And people think, oh, you cook really well, and they get more confidence. And also, it's a good income. So gradually, they do that. It's very interesting for you, because I want to follow up about the point, the difference, and in terms of their, like, their education background. Now we have a higher and higher, we, I have an MS student who graduated and who back to her village. And now she run a restaurant. But her restaurant is also, is combination with also cultural learning center. And the people, she's not only cook for them, but their food is interesting. Like, her food now, she's selling bread. They make a lot of pizza now. Pizza, because pizza often become a, there was time it become very popular. And this is a pizza often is normally put in outside. So for indigenous people, fix their lifestyle. So the pizza, it's become, the pizza never been, how come this link with the indigenous people? And also bread making, we have a lot of, like, not much, yeah, they're selling bread. And people never doubt about indigenous people. And I've been worried about this, because I also do research on North American Indian. And I know they become diabetes. It's because they eat so many bread. So I keep warning them, you know, this is, and this is the bread eating is never been indigenous people or hantawan is whatever. And this is kind of Western differential food. So when I did my research on that 12 interviews, I can tell they are, it's like, it's because tourism, because it's cause a lot of people want to go and they need to eat. So they end up like that. Okay. Okay. This kind of falls on from what you said. I don't know if it's a question or a comment, really. But there wasn't. I know that you were talking mainly about, you know, performance. Yeah. And not about authenticity, which some people may want to touch on too much. But I think it's important to talk about it in terms of, there was a lot of discussion about defining what is, what makes cuisine indigenous. And it seems like there's, I mean, you could discuss the type of ingredients where, whether it be wild boar or snails or whatever, then down to the modes of collection, hunting, using traditional manners, seasonal, you know, I mean, fishing festivals, you know, there are certain times of the year that they collect certain things. And the tools that they use to collect them traditionally. And then you move on to the method of preparation. Salting versus grilling versus what. I went to visit this Ami's village once and the guy said that we're going to make you a traditional Ami's chicken. And we're like, oh, okay. And he got, he put a chicken, not like a live one, he put like a, you know, he plucked them for the chicken into a metal box and covered it in hay and petrol and just set it on fire. And it just cooked the chicken inside this burning hot box for like 15 minutes or something and took it out. Everyone, chicken. But we're just, that's traditional, but, you know, they, they use this kind of the way of cooking it to kind of show that they have something that's a bit different, but whether or not it's much different. And then we'll be going to kind of things like table etiquette, drinking habits, songs like that. So it seems to me that there's a lot of the process from start to finish. You could talk about many different ways to define indigeneity, but that wasn't really discussed in the talking. But, you know, for me, it's less to do with who's actually running the business and what to do with the entire process. Yeah, you were right. I think in my paper I'm actually writing that the one who own the restaurants, they got the right to interpret the culture. So there's so many ways to say it. So that's what I use a lot of their narratives because I let them to define, they define the indigenous restaurant or indigenous food. And it's not me to define. And then I will say I focus on certain aspects. So each restaurant, I will focus the same aspect. For example, the poster, and then that's why something I can compare or I can analysis, you know. And you're right. There's so many things. And that's why I say food study is so interesting because they account for so many different aspects. And so in one, like you said, you're also talking about how to drink, you know, and they will come up, the indigenous owner will come and say, oh, this is how we drink. And for some indigenous people, you have to drink in one go. And all you share, you share a whole board of drinks together. Yeah. And then before you drink, you share with the spirit, the God, the earth, so the ritual. And this is how the different from in a big stock, buster, bank hotels. There's something they don't have. And then the way for them to able to share the stories, to tell you. So for indigenous owner themselves, normally for this 12 restaurant, it's interesting because they all come up. Nobody share or cook. They are behind stage. When we're talking about stage, we're talking about this government stuff that front stage or back stage, right? And normally the chef is in the back stage, holding the dishes. But in this restaurant, there's always somebody, either the owner or the owner's partner, they will tell you the story. And that's the story that makes their dishes authentic. Yeah. I don't know whether I answered your question. That wasn't really a question. Yeah. Just to share with you. So I did, I know when I start writing this paper, there's so many things. And I'm just saying, how can I focus about, so I use staging and performance to become my focus. I have two questions. The first one is quite theoretical. This concern was the issue of adopting Western theories. So your case is very local, indigenous restaurants, but your theoretical framework are heavily drawn from Western theories. So I wonder how you deal with the challenges that you might encounter in doing these. And the second question is more like, I would like to learn more about your opinion on how we can evaluate these performances. And how subversive these performances are. Because on the one hand, we see an inward summary you describe running indigenous restaurants as cultural weapons. But on the other hand, we see how the state or the mass media can appropriate these indigenous stereotypes and meanings. So that's more like. Yeah. Thank you for the questions. I think we always, especially like, if we use the so-called Western theory, or we use any theory, there's always a problem like, how do you appropriate, how do you use the theory to your case studies. And I think that's nothing to do with so-called local case. Anyone who use other people's theory, you always have to address that. And I think for me is to think about whether when I use this concept about, for example, distinction from Pierre Boudure, the distinction. And then do I really use it well and cannot convince the audience. And I think that's my concern. So whether I use it appropriate or not, I let the audience to judge. And when I say that to my students, I always, you have to convince me whether you use it okay, or just the name. Or you really understand the theory and then how you use the case to elaborate or to convince your audience. That's the first question. And how do I kind of judge the performance? I don't. I just use the case and then to address the issue. And so it could be a strategy or it could be a tactic, the way they try to perform them, perform themselves. And they use different. And I just show my analysis for people whether am I convincing you as an audience or not. Yeah. So, yes. Can you add both? Yes. One thing is that, because my research is about the indigenous music, and that's not the one thing. I think it's the same as your topic, like the government policies, they use like joint festival to represent the indigenous culture, right? And sometimes they're just using like our main music, but we don't dance. So I think sometimes the policies need to be correct. Yeah. Yeah. Immediately. Right. That's one comment. But the other thing is about identity. Because my research is focused on contemporary indigenous music, on social media things. I think the identity needs to be re-think. Because we got some productive identity. And the individual identity as well. Right. Like I'm Amis, but I'm indigenous to be compared with the Taiwanese, right? So I want to know what's your perspective about the interaction between the individual identity and the collective identity. Yeah. Thank you for the good questions. Yes. In terms of these government policies, yes, especially in tourism, it's more related to also more tourism, especially the government trying to promote Taiwanese indigenous tourism. And there's a lot of kind of policies like they will now, we will help you to like now the farming things, agriculture is very, very popular now for people, tech people, tech tourists go to the farm to experience this. So the government policies always is a big, like the way to lead, to teach this kind of indigenous, the art development, like you said, music. And you're right. So I use the hybridity. And then this kind of hybridity also interesting. Sometimes you never know sometimes this kind of pen in indigenous or collective identity. But sometimes there was that if, for example, Sumin, you will know, like he will use the Amis identity, but then he also used Dulan, because then Dulan is different, even there are Amis, but they are Dulan Amis. And these Dulan Amis is very different from Hualien Amis. Yeah. So, so Sumins, Sumins, I think you probably, if you go into study contemporary indigenous music, you will, I think Sumin will be, should be included. Yeah. And this, I think his case will be interesting when he used this kind of collective Amis or indigenous, Taiwanese indigenous and then Amis and then Dulan. And sometimes Dulan is very highlight because this Sumins music festival in November. So if everybody were interested, there's really interesting about Sumins, what Sumin was doing. Yeah. He was, he, he reacted to the government policy, to example policy, but he turned into his own way or organized all this music festival which people have to become Amis. So you have this flag and a singing and dancing and all the local, local artifacts is wrong by Dulan. So, but he also sometimes used Amis. This Amis festival, but it's Dulan. Yeah. So I I'm not so sure. I, I hope this is give you some kind of thought. And in terms of identity, for me, I think, I never, I never think we are kind of pure and empathy. And myself as a half fried, half red, yeah, and Taiwanese and Thai Chinese and this. For me, it's like, but it's interesting when people, when they claim themselves or are unknown, and then sometimes they say, oh, I'm Taiwanese and Dutinous people. Yeah. Could you talk a little bit about the, the customers in these restaurants? So who are they? Is the main target, Taiwanese or tourists? Over these tourists. And, and what about mainland Chinese tourists? Yeah. Well, actually, at the beginning, because when I started my research, like 2006, at that time, there are not many Mandarin, the Chinese tourists. Yeah. But in 2000, I think 2000 and start 2008, they graduate. And then especially 2000, like 10 point my angel, as a president, that the policy was open. So Hualien, even I have a difficult time to get a ticket, try to take it back to visit my mom, because it's all for tourists. Yeah. So, and then that's why, because Chinese tourists, they come on a big tourist bus, and their presentation will be different and they always have dance. Because that's what the Chinese tourists want to see. It's always combined with dance. And that's how you will have this Thai lady or Vietnamese lady. Walk in the restaurant to serve them. And the Chinese tourists have no idea they are not Taiwanese at all. So did some of the restaurants you looked at, they look at Chinese too? Yeah, they do. They do. And I think there's one called San Fan Yang Si. They are target, because they can accommodate a huge, they can have about five touring bus. Because they're a restaurant, they kind of open, they rent the other place. So they can have this big table, about 12 or 10 table, one table. They can have, they can accommodate that huge. So the thing is become, it's like a fast food. You know, they have this thing. Yeah. But as long as they're singing and dancing and drinking, people are happy. But they are come alone, just brought by the travel agency? Yes. Yeah, as a travel agency. But this phenomenon is getting worse and worse now. Yeah, because we, the change of policy after Xiaoying as the president. So the Chinese government now, I think it's not that open for them to come to Taiwan. And some people now, they're back to say, okay, then we have to focus back to the other tourists. Yeah, most of them are tourists. Local people wouldn't come. I only go to those restaurants when I have visitors. I wouldn't go. I only have my visitor, special visitor for them. I'll take them to the restaurant. And your students wouldn't go? No, it's too expensive for them. And then if they want to eat, we can barbecue us. We can't do that. No fishing and barbecue. So why do we go to the restaurant? And then if we're going out for food, then they don't want to go to indigenous restaurant. They want something, maybe Italian food. They want something different and special. If they can eat that at home, why they eat that in the restaurant and then pay like 10 times, right? So as many, and then even the owner themselves will say, we don't eat this food like this. We eat, we maybe barbecue fish, then you can just like Dr. Puss was saying, like a big oil tank. And then you put the fire and then you just barbecue and then we eat. We don't have that. He said beautifully. Yeah. So and they probably use plastic back. Yeah. So. Okay. So maybe we should continue our discussion. We've got some coffee and some desserts. So let's thank Joyce for two fantastic. Thank you.