 Mae'n gweld i'n ddweud i'r ddweudio. Mae'n ddweud i'n John Lewis. Mae'n gwybod i'n ddweudio. Mae'n ddweud i'n John Lewis. Mae'n ddweudio gyda'r llyfrgell yng Nghymru. Mae'r ddweudio yn y cwrthodol, ac mae'n ddweud i'r ddweudio ar y ffordd. Mae'n ddweud i'n ddweudio'r ddweudio. Ac ydw i'n ddweud i'r llyfrgell. ond ti i g Bastro- reddem nh просто. Felly y cwrthodol i chi fydd am holl ddweud. Mae'n ddweud yn cyllideu mewn破. Mae'r ddweud sydd wedi mwynaf rywfydd o'r ddweud. Ddi'u achnod eich hydr調 a'r Felin Body Shenf sentai接aian Cymru. Mae'r ddweud sydd wedi defnyddio rhan oeddechheddooli Gift There's no set of doors and there's no set of doors. It's really, really good to be hosting this event today because as we all know we're coming to a crucial time in care for the past. We held a large two-day conference here last month on celebrating the 100 years of heritage protection and the 100th anniversary of the 1913 Ancient Monuments Act. Cymysgu y byw ymddangos, o ddigwethaf, ond mynd i chi'n bwysig i fynd, chei Group hasio Panchoedd. Mae'n bwysig i gael eich ddiweddill o ddigwethaf ar-reinpaeth wahanol a'u amdano ar bwysig oedd iawn. But if any of the speakers who have agreed to come along and talk on their party's behalf don't wish to have their speech made available, then please let me know afterwards, and we wouldn't use it. But you need to sign to consent for if you do want it to be made available. So without any further ado, I will hand over to Jack Will's chair ac mae'n gofyn negwys i'r argymell yn ysgolwyddon cyd-gredig. Yn y gallu'n gweithio ar y cyflawn, fyddai'n gofyn yn ysgolwyddon. Gwyddoch chi'n rhaid i'n gweithio ar y cyfeilio, a'r cyfeilio am y cwrsiau cwmnig, rydyn ni wedi'u gweithio ar gyfer y cyflawn. Rydyn ni'n gweithio ar gyfer y cyflawn, i gyd-gredig yr ysgolwyddon yw'n gweithio ar gyfer y cyflawn. The Archaeology Forum is a grouping of non-central government archaeological organisations that's very broad in its membership, so it includes representatives of local government archaeology services, employers, both private and public sector in archaeology, membership organisations with amateur professional and members as a public amongst their members, society of museum archaeologists, society of antiquaries of course, our hosts today, and the full membership is listed in your programme. Taf members work together to influence legislation and policy as they affect archaeology in the wider historic environment, especially through advising the all-party parliamentary archaeology group. And therefore, Taf members have a very keen interest in the policies of the political parties, particularly as they build towards formulation of manifestos and prepare for the next Westminster election. We're meeting today a time of change for heritage when is it not a time of change, but there's a lot going on in all of the countries in the UK at the moment in terms of legislative change, organisational change in Scotland, in Wales and in England where it's of course proposed to split English heritage, our national archaeological body into two with different sets of responsibilities. At local level, there is what I would describe as a crisis in local government with cuts in budgets and services threatening protection given to local heritage. So it's against this background of change at both national and local level that we meet this afternoon and we're particularly keen to hear from our guests about their policies in respect to these issues and archaeology and the heritage generally. Our programme this afternoon consists of presentations from the Green Party, the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats. We don't, I'm afraid, have a representative from the Scottish National Party but our IFA chief executive Peter Hinton will probably be speaking in that slot in the programme this afternoon. Good substitute, I'm sure he'll agree. The Minister Ed Basie is arriving at 3.20 so he will join the panel at that point. Once we've heard from all of our speakers, we have a question session. So please think and formulate your questions as we hear presentations from our guests. Now going to move to begin our presentations and invite Jenny Jones from the Green Party, a member of the London Assembly, and I gather an archaeologist at an earlier time in her career. Jenny's going to speak to us now. I have to, it's true I was being an archaeologist. I had to admit to Jenny earlier that I was a really bad archaeologist. If there's anybody who works with me, if there's anybody in the room who needs to work with me, they'll vouch for that. There's no force and modesty there. And I thought it was a real resale to open it quite a long time ago and he said at that point I said the Green Party has got a policy but I couldn't find it. But I have estimated it. And it's here and I'm embarrassed to say that it's dated October 96. So it could possibly be more fun to date. But I'll perhaps just read it quickly because it's not very... Well, it's obviously very extensive but it won't take long to read. It does, I think, sum up where we're coming from as a party. Because as an archaeologist it does mean that I'm a traditionalist and I do respect the past very deeply. But at the same time I'm a radical and I'm clear that we can't protect the whole past but it's to a detriment if we lose too much of it. And personally archaeology for me was an absolute pleasure from day one to the very end when I decided I just couldn't earn enough money for doing it. And we've done politics. I'll read out what our policy is. We are committed to the integration of archaeological concerns into all aspects of land use and development strategies. We think there should be a review of PPG 16 with the view to strengthening the obligation of developers to provide adequate resources whilst allowing archaeological concerns to be powered in deciding how to achieve this. We would want a review of scheduled monuments legislation a review to strengthening protection reports to sites and monuments. A tightening of the law regarding the misuse of metal detectors on archaeological sites we would promote the teaching of archaeology at all levels of education to raise awareness of archaeology's relevance to the landscape, to social fabric, to the economy and to all other issues. And we would continue and expand resources available for archaeological research, conservation and management. And we would review the legal framework regarding maritime threats with a view to affording better protection for these sites. Now the fact is I know that there are moves to try to make councils more responsible to make sure that they do take into account archaeology but having been a councillor myself I can tell you, as Jan mentioned earlier there have been cuts to local government meaning that there are some very, very hard decisions and if local government and local councils have to make a choice between daycare for elderly and protection of an archaeological site in their territory, they may not feel that they can actually support the archaeology. It's a very, very difficult situation and it's pity that the ministers are here now to hear me say that this government is responsible for a savagery of the fabric of our social network in Britain in the way that they have benefits in the way that they cut money to local government which is where the real democracy happens. It's where people actually can speak directly to their councillors. The councillors are on a day-to-day basis. I couldn't go in my front garden to try to cut the grass or trim the trees without people stopping to talk to me about a solar panel and what to put in their roof when they're going to get permission for. Local democracy is where it happens. It's where protection for the archaeology really has to be but at the same time you have to find it and this government has cut local government to the point where local government is going to make very, very hard decisions. So personally I think that we're in a situation where archaeology actually is going to be hard and hard to finance. Even when I was an archaeologist and I stopped being an archaeologist in 1999 the fact that archaeology was developer driven was a huge problem. That's a huge problem. I've seen in London there does seem to be, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, there does seem to be a little bit more understanding from developers generally and it seems that sites in London have often had a lot of, they've had time for the archaeology. Archeology is now the archaeology to be an important component of the overall development but even so I think that archaeology to some extent has to be for itself. There doesn't always have to be an economic outcome or a social outcome for a piece of archaeology. Sometimes it's just the right thing to do to find out more about our past because if we don't learn from our past then we're going to do two repeat mistakes. Thank you. Excuse me. Thank you very much Jenny. I'm sure that our audience will want to pick up some of those points on local government in the question session later on. We now move to Lord Stevenson from the Labour Party. Lord Stevenson is a spokesperson, I believe, in the Department of Culture, Media and Sport and will speak to us on behalf of the Labour Party. Thank you very much, John. Thank you also John for your introduction. It's probably just being here today. I should explain that I was very reluctant to accept the invitation, which is a terrible thing to say, but the invitation was, what was your wonderful people and what was the fortune and all that all politicians say. I'm here to listen as well. But the problem I found myself in, the reason I delay slightly in responding, is that we are incredibly disciplined opposition. We don't like to speak to what we're ready to do so and with 18 months to go to an election, this is not the time to start exposing what I think the policies of my party should be going into that election. And if I were to do so, I would soon stop being from a spokesperson for DCMS. That being said, nobody ever listens to the Lord. I'll say this. Llanx on my right was one of the great exponents of the Lord's. He's thought in our flesh, popping up at all times doing all sorts of things. And our newest member, Jenny, who was very too far people, I'd not to say that she is about to become a member of the Upper High or joining us in the early November as Baroness Jones of... Alston. Which I'm sure will leave you to ask her about that later. Anyway, I've positioned that word. I can't really give you very much detail because that detail does not exist. We aren't genuinely in that listening mode. There are something like 18 working parties crawling across the policy. And while some announcements were made at the conference a couple of weeks ago, those were more, I think, tactical and specific. And certainly, in fact, it did not go down as far as we're quite at down. It didn't reach out as far as on ecology and the wider context. However, the reason I thought I wouldn't change my mind and speak is partly because I realised all the other parties were going to... It's gone nuts. Believe it or not, I've run away. That tells you about the referendum a year from now. But the issue was that I just wanted to make a few points about where we might be moving because I think it's been an interesting time John mentioned the crisis that seems to be affecting so much of what you do and how you operate. And I think I wanted to think a little bit about that because I did a bit of work in the house early in the year in some areas to do with this. And in particular, I was involved in a rather odd debate by I think it was victory in 1744 about which I'd like to return. The thing that strikes me thinking about the role of heritage and the way in which it contributes to our social and political and cultural life is that it comes with very many parts of the government's machinery. It gets forgotten in the bad times and inadequately rewarded in the good times. So while we recognise that it's been a problem and certainly our party has just been guilty of it it's not alone. There are many, many areas of public life which do not get the attention that they should do. And what I'm going to say is I want to try and reflect a little bit about what might be a plan for trying to remedy that. It is true that there is no overarching vision as far as I can detect within government about this work. There is no sense of ownership. There is no particular department that would claim that it had all the answers to it. And the problem is compounded by the fact that the department that does have no emotional responsibility is the Department for Culture, Media and Sport of the Minister for Whom is getting to appear and who he does see will have some answers for it. It's therefore the worst of all possible worlds. It's not given the strong leadership anywhere in the government. That leadership that is there is spread out over a number of departments many of which were touched on in the opening remarks. And the department which has the budget to string all the responsibilities of the board is unable to make its case with any form of strength. That's easy to analyse how you sort that out. Well, the first thing I have learnt from my time in working in the arts and media and subsequently to be responsible for it in terms of opposition is that there are no simple answers to that question. Clearly responsibilities have got to be built between DCLG, between BIS, the business department and the education department. And any or all of those could be places within which this responsibility could be placed. And I think there are quite some bad plans from that. If your concern is primarily on planning then obviously it helps to have a strong advice in DCLG if it's in relation to the broader development agenda. However, that would need to accommodate how you would operate within BIS for construction and other matters I dealt with. And of course if you want to think about making sure that everybody understands and enjoys the work that you are doing there's plenty of anecdotal and real evidence to suggest that education as a whole is something that we should all be thinking about from school right through to lifelong. Just look at the programs on television and stuff like this. Then clearly the Department for Education would be an important part. So there are many possibilities here but not all of them are necessarily the right ones. For example, I've been doing some work on copyright recently which has aspects of the work that you do and is important in terms of our own economic development as a country. But that is hopelessly straddling between the business department and DCMS with the Minister claiming responsibility but I've been placed in BIS which is Lord Yamgrove-Lecky. The actual work and much of the initiative is coming from the Department for Represents and Creatives which is DCMS and in particular Edvesie who does a very good job in this area. But because there is a stasis within the department within, quite all, nobody is prepared to take it up because it just looks like trouble if you were thinking about taking up an issue and working with it across government you certainly wouldn't choose one for which there were two competing debatments because you chance to get in and be done in the short time that one is a Minister who probably would be zero. So the practical aspects of this analysis which is that heritage is not being looked up properly those that work and support heritage are not being given sufficient resources and the problem that we all face and that is very high at the libraries, the Public Library Service which is a responsibility of the Department which is funded by DCLG but the actual main usages are in education and they are keeping us. So we have to be careful what we wish for but I think it's an issue we need to come back to. And then more recently you have to look at the way in which government, the machine in totality has looked at heritage and issues related to that and it's very surprising to me working back over the figures to see how badly this area has suffered in the past. If you look for the major settlements over the last ten years consistently the built environment heritage more generally has underperformed the arts and the culture of the media by about one or two percentage points. So where 5% was going to the arts council and its associated with what is 3% or even less was going to British heritage and their bodies. And the same is broadly true in the developed heritage as well. So the puzzle is why is that happening? We could sort the question of where was this placed in government. How could you then address this question of why does heritage underperform relative to the arts? And I think the answer to that is that if you watch what the others have done they've been quite smart in getting organised and arguing a case specifically and directed to the treasury. Now in good old days that Master Fran was in there the Chancellor of the Exchequer he had a fondness for picking up things and running them. So it's quite easy if you can just attract his attention a little bit of a bunch out of a budget. It's not so easy nowadays but I still think the principle is quite important. So when I was working in the film industry we were very lucky to catch his eye and as a result of which we got which others have been recorded to so we'd be a bit careful. What seems to me to be a rather soft a sort of soft mind which basically is aligned in places that if you make a film in Britain then you get 25% of that cost given by the treasury. Now the argument is economic. The argument is that if you make a film in Britain you're employing people you're using props, you're using trust makers you're using vacations you're taking stuff out of hotels you're doing all sorts of good things so there is an argument for it. But it's it's a subsidy by another name and the argument certainly took five years to make but once they've been there they've not only survived but they've also been adopted by the Conservative Liberal Democrats and we should thank them for that and even extended to what's called high-end television and to games making so video games which your children are playing even as we speak now get a subsidy from your tax and you should reflect on that. If it's true for such valuable things as high-end drama that includes Downton Evie which I suppose has got some relevance to what was in there other aspects more contemporary than that then you've also got to think about why is it that the value that you are putting back into the economy through your work supporting the knowledge and understanding of the past the development of good practices in the areas that we care about the education of those who should know more about their history and be aware of the dangers to prevent requirements such as GCMS gifting precious rec such as HMS Victory 1744 to a consortium with apparently no financing whatsoever and only the possibility of being able to undertake the conservation and support work that's required for that when they sell some of the artifacts which are supposedly in the care of a better discussed doesn't stack up for me therefore I think that if we're thinking forward about this then I want to urge those who have involvement in this to think hard about the responsibilities that states should have in this area to argue the economic and the cultural and the social arguments that can be made but to think very hard about the way in which employment and contributions to our standard of living and everything else comes from the work you do and to make the case that there are subsidies operating in parallel areas that are not applied to the heritage so in that sense I'm looking for a new paradigm if we can fund the latest Star Wars film through our tax funds going to support that being made in primary I don't see why we can't also support the raising of HMS Victory if that's what's required but certainly the preservation of these amazing yarns pictures of which are available on the website in which a tree will know if we're not careful the two who have already disappeared will be joined by others and we will lose the chance to understand more about what it was about that particular shift in that particular period which was so special and so extraordinary and therefore complete that story for our own selves, for our children, for our grandchildren to understand better who we are and where we're coming from No overarching vision in government that sticks in my mind We move on now to our third speaker Lord Reedstall who speaks on behalf of the Liberal Democrats and who will be familiar to many of us in the audience from the all-party parliamentary archaeology group Lord Reedstall Thank you I stand in front of this audience and I remember last time we did it a number of years ago we had almost the same argument and the charge was thrown at us What have you ever done? Well, I started the all-party archaeology group I've worked with Roger Bland on many of his incredibly successful campaigns to actually say we've got a lot of things and I've worked as part of the Troika which is myself Lord Renfrew and Lord Houth who is basically we have trained a lot of pieces of legislation over the time and Daisy who has been incredibly supportive and is one of the better ministers has actually recognised that we've been a pain on the ars to him and that we've been pushing on him So, before you actually turn around and say, ha, you should be spending more just remember this the panel don't actually have any ability to spend any money and I also would like to throw back at you guys that having the same old arguments about cuts is actually irrelevant and pointless I just say this because I've got a complete moor at the University of Ars because I'm speaking on sustainability and ars and energy consumption I made a very good speech then the entire audience decided as one during the entire question time the politician was going to be beaten up for lack of spending on the ars I took about two questions and I thought well I'll tell you what the problem with ars is while some of it is inspirational gives ideas and is fantastic 99% of ars is really not very good and it just kicked off really I said why should the government fund rubbish ars and we have a bit of the same problem with archaeology we're a victim I was just in the house coming to the tube and I walked past where the underground car park is outside westerns and of course that is the reason that we have funding for archaeology at all in the 70s one of the most important areas for archaeological excavation was dug up without any archaeology taking place whatsoever when they put the car park in so they changed the law and said right we're going to fund this but the problem was we had a thriving archaeological community who felt empowered who stood up and shouted and by funding it we then turned it into health and safety don't go near a site with a heart hat and laws about exactly what you can do who cares if a few archaeologists get buried in there I've got to correct them if you don't but the problem is we've taken away from people archaeology now we gave it back through the time team they do their best they are almost an archaeological record in their own right now you can't stick on the format of one program holding the whole thing together there is some really stunning exciting stuff I was up with Clyde Waddington who was digging anvil which was looking at a site continuously occupied from all the nearly thing and it was the great runtime ice collapse which led to a tsunami which cut broken off from the rest of Europe but we actually had that layer of tsunami now he managed to get £75,000 of heritage lottery fund to dig that layer up to find out if there's any flins underneath that was taken to him since but that's a sealed layer that's incredibly rare it was exciting it was on the local telly it was on national telly it's got people excited but what I have the problem with is it's very difficult to get people excited every day of the week on developer led archaeology but that's what pays for all our archaeology that's what pays for the infrastructure and the big problem there isn't any money that will come it doesn't matter what we can have the massive buy but there is no money because it's a bust I always love it, politicians must come up with money well no, politicians can come up with money you just dip that hand in your pocket in one way or another so there's no point in them setting around and saying there's going to be new money I would throw back instead of having the usual argument to say the minister's got to do his best I think we have got a ministry to be doing his best and I actually think the last government was doing the funny thing is things have that moment in the sun why does the arts council get more because you have more people shouting and this is what we came back to before we've got to get archaeology shouting again and it's not all doom and gloom we have this every single time we have a discussion it's doom and gloom yes I know we haven't cut I know we're under pressure but when you go to other countries where there's absolutely no protection whatsoever you look at this country there is a genuine passion about the history of this country there's enormous amounts of of passion amongst volunteers which we have to harvest if we're not getting the money from central government we've got to think of other ways of getting it now as John Lewis will know I'm an expert at trying to winkle money out of the most bizarre successes and hopefully it will be very successful at that for the society but you've just got to start thinking about that I'm on the board of York Archaeological Trust York Archaeological Trust the most exciting is the most successful archaeological trust does it on the back does it on the back does it on the back does it on the back of a tourist attraction it was a car park it was meant to be a car park that space not it's basically a concrete cellar but then they've got York Archaeological Trust the York Archaeological Centre fantastic and then you have the York Archaeological Festival where you've got vast numbers of vikings walking around I mean I love it when you go into a sales room you've got a viking you've got to start with the battle axe every shoulder and there's an old lady saying you've got to take one down it's completely ignored but you have that and it's a massive draw it brings in millions of pounds to York each year and the reason was that York faced a problem there was a dip in numbers where they had to fill so they had to go all the vikings and re-enactment people together to try and fill that and it's become one of the biggest draws and it's seen as such now I'm not saying that there's that solution for everybody and we have to make sure the laws are right and we're doing our best on pieces of legislation we have to make sure that the gaps are filled and we're trying to do with that and I very much understand just how a depression is because I get letters every single day from archaeologists not every single day but you know there's a lot of people saying we've got problems and I understand that but we're not going to be able to change that problem with money coming in it's not going to come to the next 2, 3, 4 years whatever happens after the next election there's going to be more cuts or taxes going to have to go up nobody ever says that but that's exactly what's going to happen we've still got this massive debt that we've got to deal with so I think what I would throw back at you guys is it's not about saying we need more money yes we do need more money and we will push for English Heritage to have it stay in the sun which seems to go around them in circles British Museum was the one that everybody wanted to cut and now they've got a new but it's not new anymore but the director is now the shining light and the British Museum gets a lot more money than they did we've got to actually push that and getting the heritage much more into the forefront and much more attractive to politicians to get money taken but if we really want to change this around we actually have to take the lead and make it more exciting because a politician comes from the Greek man of the people, man of the city the politicians will only do what people on the ground are involved if there's no big voice shouting for it then people just don't do it but when you do have a big campaign and you do have the telly and you do have this going forward then it really does take off and then there's much more of a will for politicians to actually start digging into that pocket and fighting other people for their money we have been quite lucky that we've had a group of people who are really really keen on making sure this happened without which I think it would be a worse situation but it needs to fall from you guys Dig out my Viking costume for that event I'm sure there's lots there that Lord Reed's style has given us that we'll want to react to in question as I said earlier we don't have a representative from the Scottish National Party so we're going to take Peter Hinton's contribution next Peter is Chief Executive of the Institute for Archaeologists and one of the leading members of TAF so thank you Good afternoon everybody and I'd like to add my thanks as convener of the Archaeology Forum to the speakers today for being brave enough to come and stand before you and in due course answer a series of no doubt penetrating questions about their party's policies I'm not if there's any confusion here speaking on behalf of the Scottish National Party by the way on behalf of the Archaeology Forum now your speakers including the Minister before today were given a short briefing paper setting out some of the concerns that we thought they might care to address and I thought it would be helpful if I just ran through some of the things that were in that briefing paper going out of order one of the bullet points set before them reads why in spite of all the evidence Rupert the historic environment is frequently perceived as a net cost to the public purse I fully accept the case that much of the heritage sector has been assessed in its advocacy in trying to secure increases or reduce cuts in public sector funding for the heritage and that is an important role the Archaeology Forum I think has rarely ever made arguments based on the need for further funding the arguments that it has made is about the fragility of the services that exist in particular the local government services which we talked about one of the principal roles of the local government archaeology officer is to leave that in developer funding of the sort that Jenny was referring to earlier on to pay for archaeological works Jenny, I think our view is that by and large developer funding works is not perfect in every case but developers have taken up their environmental responsibilities and providing there is a sufficiently well resourced local authority service there to guide them and specify what they should be doing the system seems to work reasonably well now I'm famous for quoting the wrong statistics in this room about how much money that is but this week's figure is approximately 95 million pounds per year in England coming from developers some of them will be public sector I'm in but most of them will be private sector and archaeological work those people that leave it in nationally probably cost about 150th of that sum to local government so the leveraging power that they've got in terms of getting the private sector to pay for increase understanding of the archaeological heritage is enormous our concern of course is that regardless of what the national planning policy framework may wish local government to do their responsibilities not naturally required it is a discretionary function of local authorities and it is very vulnerable and so whilst the Green Party statement may date to an earlier era of PPG 16 the strengthening of planning guidance has always been one of the things that the archaeology forum has looked for and we do believe that the national planning policy framework the provisions within it are good and serve archaeology very well but they only work if there are people there to enforce it on the ground and I know we've got some questions coming up about that the panel was also treated to site of a letter which has been sent by the Council of British Archaeology the Association of Local Government Archaeology Officers and IFA to every chief planning officer and every chief executive of English local authorities setting out what our concerns are and what the problems may be for local authorities in paid expense with that local authority archaeology service one solution that has always been promoted by the Archaeology Forum is a statutory requirement for local authorities to have access to a properly staffed historic environment record and it's probably pertained at this point to remind people that in 2010 the draft Heritage Protection Bill was produced it's never got the vote Parliament but it had a provision in it to make historic environment record services a statutory requirement it was recognised at the time that it was not an additional burden on local authorities and it attracted cross party support so one of the things I think that we've always been looking for from political parties is a commitment to reviving that provision while possible finding some other mechanism to encourage and support local authorities to meet their responsibilities to the historic environment and this has been touched on very effectively by Lord Stevenson we talked about the need to make the argument about the contribution that archaeology makes to economic growth clearly there are arguments about the contribution we made cultural and social regeneration economic growth at the moment is of course top of the government's agenda and we understand why that is but we must also reflect on Jenny's point about the value almost in its own right of protecting the importance of our environment the other issue that we flagged up to our political friends related to the treatment of the underwater cultural heritage the failure so far of government to sign the UNESCO convention on the treatment of the underwater cultural heritage and our concerns about how government's commitment to abide by the principle set out in the annex of that convention can actually be adhered to under the current model for investigating victory in 1744 and I couldn't match Lord Stevenson's excoriating account of the present arrangements Lord Stevenson also referred to the range of government departments with responsibility for archaeological matters and of course one of our constant concerns in recent years has been the need for DEFRA and its colleagues to ensure that through the process of the common agricultural policy reform that environmental stewardship continues to protect the historic as well as the natural environment and after an alarming excursion during the summer I think we're feeling a little bit more reassured about that at this stage and the final bullet point was the role of national heritage bodies and we think particularly the moment of the proposed division of English heritage into two chunks and how the service that they provide towards the perfection of the heritage could better be aligned with that provided fragility if that's a word at present by local government services Lord Stevenson explained to us why at the moment it's not a brilliant time for political parties to be setting out policy positions this far ahead of the next election and we were aware of that when we set this event up because one of the things we thought this event might help with was actually getting some of our ideas across which may actually assist in that process as it goes forward over the coming months and I'm hoping that I'm not going to be contradicted by any of our colleagues in the archaeology forum if I say that forum members are ready and willing to advise and assist in the development of policy position for any of the political parties fighting in any of the forthcoming elections around the United Kingdom and our message is a symbol the popularity of archaeology has never been as great as it is now and a couple of speakers have referred to our successes in getting lots of airtime on television and you can't turn on television the night without any members of this audience peering back at you and telling you something exciting about what they found most of the legislative and policy provisions we're looking for are not controversial and nor are they costly it would be probably setting entirely the wrong term to talk about tone, to talk about cheap and easy votes but I just leave that thought to take away with them and then finally the one other thing that was in the briefing document that I'm hoping Ed Faisie will address when he enters the room is the absence of a current policy or vision statement on the historic environment the last government in 2010 produced a vision statement of the historic environment and its great strength was that it was not a DCMS statement it was signed off across Whitehall and that I think gave DCMS a lot more cloud potential cloud in its negotiations with other departments where it felt that policy positions might be taken by colleagues elsewhere in Whitehall that were decremental to the historic environment to be able to cite a government policy and not a DCMS policy that policy statement HMG policy statement has disappeared from the DCMS website the really techno-dipped if they drill down can actually find it in an archival corner somewhere but it really takes a bit of finding I think heritage alliance established that the link to the mysterious corner of the website where it lurks is seen as a current document and I think we would be very pleased to see commitments from any of the political parties to try and get a patterned government view on the value of heritage and their study through archaeology now unhelpfully at that point and with all the ministers arrival I kind of run out of steam so I'm going to hand it back to the honour chair to try and decide what the questions might be one of the options Thank you very much Peter We have about 15 minutes now before the anticipated arrival of our final speaker Ed Ray's speech so I think perhaps we might extemporise and do a few questions. I know that Lord Stevenson has to be early I think so providing the opportunity now for a few questions you might want to bear in mind that Lord Stevenson has to leave early and the ministry is not yet here and structure your questions accordingly. I'm going to abuse my position as chair to kick off if I may and just pick up something that Lord Stevenson I think said in his presentation or commented questioned and I think you said Lord Stevenson why isn't the value of heritage recognised across government and I think personally I feel that we've struggled through a number of different administrations various complexions to really make a mark and convince government that heritage that archaeology does matter for all the wide range of reasons that various of our speakers have touched on not only its intrinsic value in terms of information about our past but also all of the economic and social values that we feel it has so might I ask you Lord Stevenson just to respond to that and the question of why are we not getting through the message on the value of heritage in government well there isn't an answer to that question because obviously there was an answer who would be doing anything with it but I think what I was trying to say is because for all the right reasons various departments will have heritage on their agenda but inevitably it comes seven days nights in the list of things that they have to do so you get this situation where the spirit is willing but the flesh is unfortunately weak and not able to sign off the paperwork that would get things going so the idea of a unified division of heritage is a great one and I do remember that being discussed when I was working at number 10 and I'm sorry that it didn't get picked up because that's a first step one thing that one might try which it promises that there are dangers that he tries to enter I remember years before that there was a concern that architecture wasn't being given sufficient weight in decision particularly with the PFI and others beginning to produce huge amounts of new government building there was a concern that the quality of the environment would suffer in that sense and what happened was that there was a move quite successfully to a point in every department from the existing portfolio one who would be the architecture champion now you could see how that might work in a more restricted grade perhaps across my tool if you could find the political willingness to commit to appointing within the current plethora of ministers one who would have particular responsibility for heritage in that department at least there would be a way of trying to get some across the department of working on that it would give it cum sum and it wouldn't have much authority because without a budget there is very little chance to raise awareness and there would be a step down that path that we need to take the other thing that has been quite interesting in the White Wall in recent years has been the development of a specific branch in every department it's paused now because budgets are tight but as well as having chief economists in every department they began to appear a variable rash of chief scientific officers so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to suggest that that office that they would have might include a specific responsibility to say heritage and much more so again you would have in every department somebody who had a right to see the major papers, the major policies who had right of access as the chief scientist does to the department secretary and to the secretary of state and again an issue could be either organically raised within the department or my design would be you could write in and say please talk to your chief scientist who will be briefed about this particular issue because it's a very good term so those would be the sort of things you can do as a video guide to getting stuff to stick in White Wall but the main problem is as I was trying to argue you need a narrative we're all about narratives these days and a narrative has to be something of a capsule of somebody who's never seen the other Treasury you can't do that he's dropping that's the challenge I don't know, I think you're ready to follow up because although I've not introduced you I was doing an induction which is where the teacher about how to table questions where to park your bike how to put a sleep on road benches and how to be honest with cameras one of the things one of the things what's just to me is how there is a very strong feeling of camaraderie in the House of Lords which doesn't exist in quite the same way in the House of Commons and that's my preface to saying that I want to disagree with Lord Rees because he said earlier oh it's not about money but actually of course it is because money is commitment and of course there's more money because you can decide not to do some things that your heart is set on for example the HS2 the replacing treatment there are all sorts of things that you can decide not to do which actually does leave some money in the budget and let's face it the money for archaeology is peanuts compared with money for big rail schemes or big road schemes or whatever and so to some extent if there isn't money attached to it it isn't valued by government it isn't valued by politicians and so it is extremely important as far as you can and there is this sense that if it's exciting I mean the rich of the third stock is sure has generated a lot of interest a friend of mine in Jerusalem works on getting a TB from ancient DNA with a view to seeing how it was transmitted in print history there are things that actually are of value today scientifically and that do I think catch public interest and we can catch politicians interest just on the he's mentioned the event timing this is perfect timing for the manifesto this is actually a very good time to have this event to start to put pressure and your archaeologists should be going to every single option that you have to speak to your you should be going to your GP surgery you should be going to Hustings for local councils every time you can raise this issue of archaeology you should be doing it with the politicians because they if they get enough upsedge from the people that they actually have votes from then they will start to listen yeah yeah it's a fair point to say it is about money I quite agree but having been a working local government and councils up and down the country worked on every issue the big problem is it's not about a government that you are saying let's cancel HS2 that's easy that would be wrong, I hope I'm not doing that that's a new money, 50 billion quid that doesn't exist yet anyway the problem is I'm on the Hydra's wall trust when you turn around to Northumberland council and say you want £50,000 they've got to take it from somebody else's budget that's not HS2 that's social care it's out of whoever and to those people £50,000 is a hell of a lot of money so the problem with it is I quite agree with you the same archaeology is not a small beer in the government terms but remember most of the funders of this is local authorities so we have to wonder what are the big problems we've had with archaeology is a lot of the funding is not statutory and therefore it's up to the local authorities to decide whether it should be and the other thing statutory is almost impossible so you actually have to convince those people who hold the budgets to come forward that's why I'm saying yes you can make a decision but don't expect the decision to be easy even if it's a small amount of money I mean going back to some of the funds we've had in the past for £100,000 you know that was months of campaigning although interestingly enough I do remember that money was actually achieved because the minister couldn't spare one of the people in our group so much that she agreed for £100,000 to come out of DCFS funds just to get us out of the office so the situation's captain it wasn't it wasn't but anyway it wasn't quite secret you know that's proper politics of the short term because we've got £100,000 as it's affected what I would say though to everybody is one of the great things about the five year terms is that unlike usually where you try and fight every year to find out what's in the manifesto we're actually entering into that period where the manifesto actually makes sense that that's next year the manifesto round is just closed for most of the parties over what was actually happening and we'll now reopen quite soon for writing the final round of the manifesto for 2015 so go and find out who on each of the parties is responsible for writing the manifesto tell you exactly who the gentleman is going to be and that's what we're obviously going to do for the party next time round although if you want to join us that would be fine and of course for certain who's going to be writing the manifesto? Well I know we should so we're not sure which MP it is going to be because I haven't seen any of these before after this morning but go and find whoever it is go and actually find their assistance whoever the MP it is who's actually doing it go and find the people in their office because you can get on that basis Thank you very much Lord Reed-Stell I know and I welcome White Honourable Ebayze MP Minister for Culture, Communications and Creative Industries who hope is now going to speak on behalf of the party Thanks very much it's a delight to be here and thank you for your reshuffling intelligence I'm not yet in the Privy Council but if you know something that I don't they are absolutely delighted to be here for White Honourable I'm sitting at a placard from Kelmscott Manor outside the door about a mile outside my constituency my uncle has written three or four books about William Morris so not only is there a geographic connection as a sort of family connection and I'm hoping that there's a quick probe over the coming years so I'm excited to be able to arrange a special client at all for me Kelmscott Manor that would be great It is a reshuffle day and I'm still in the job I said to the Prime Minister I'm not moving until I've spoken to the Society of Enterprise I'll approach to archaeology It is a I do have a very strange brief I was reflecting on the way here because I've just come from a meeting with a top media analyst talking about Netflix and the BBC, I play a forward sheen intelligence so here I am talking to an organisation that's involved in looking back at history over 900,000 years but there is I think a connection on many levels actually I think there's a connection first I think one forgets how important science is to archaeology it might be for the average man on the street and this is not a criticize the average man on the street might just think all I've got to do is dig holes on the ground and brush the dirt at the things they find but we know the amount of science involved in dating and analysing the objects that are found and in conserving them and also using the latest technology to discover things that are laid underground for centuries or even millennia I also think as well that archaeology is increasingly popular and it's partly popular by television programmes at the time which get a very fair audience and I think it has a lot of popular support and I am personally passionate about archaeology a bit it's just something in my being that I love this idea of discovering objects that have been accidentally or deliberately buried for many centuries and that thrill of being the first person to uncover it after many years I've tried my hand to metal detector I can still remember the excitement I'm uncovering a 1972 hence quite my constituency I remain keen to discover there couldn't be a staffage afford but again I think the staffage of all shows how alive archaeology is suddenly as a box of historians spend some time studying some food carried away by the romance of that to discover something that has significant even more significant in the last few years it shows what archaeology is still producing of course the discovery of Richard the Thur's bones as well and in my constituency joining a metal detector in there where they discovered a great Saxon burial site and only recently discovered that even though I've been the MP for 8 years that we have an amphitheater a Roman amphitheater partially excavated in my constituency as well I've still picked up on the fact that I would probably agree with quite a lot of it not least obviously the brilliance of this shell issue but also some people might get the impression of archaeology in not in the forefront of policy but for me one of the first things I wanted to do when I became a minister was to secure the future of the portable antiquity scheme I thought the portable I think the portable antiquity scheme is a credible scheme it's very cost effective it brings together passionate amateur with professionals and I think it works incredibly effectively and it's become something of a tradition of mine to launch British museums annual report on the portable antiquity scheme and I was very keen to secure the value of that scheme we haven't obviously completely inoculated the scheme from the reduction in expenditure we've had to impose across many different departments but I certainly made sure that the reduction has been far less given loss for other parts of my portfolio because I thought as I was saying for a relatively small amount of money we as a country would get enormous amount back and I think it's very well respected scheme all around the world I think the biggest issue you face and I think again what we'll do so is alluding to is the issue of local councils and local authorities and how well they are able to carry out their support for archaeology and I think that is something that I never knew and I went to visit your archaeological trust a couple of weeks ago I'm attracted to this idea but I'm very keen to hear people's views on the role of trust and play in supporting archaeology the relationship between the government and trust so that can be a more formal relationship with much clearer lines of responsibility so I'll be very keen to hear from you in terms of the wider brief on heritage we're just about to update our guidance on the schedule of monuments we were going to publish it today to coincide with today's seminar but it's important to get it right so people take a look at the days that we formally published that we are having to publish it this week as you know we've got grand plans for English heritage which I'm sure will interest all of you we want English heritage to establish a separate trust for the care of its buildings and monuments it's an idea that I've long cherished and it's a much clearer relationship to have what is at the moment called a national heritage protection snake that is the purpose of our consultation it may have a different name when the dust settles what one might call previously a heritage regulator separate from a trust building us and looks after the monuments that are in the care of English heritage I think that will have implications or a lot more of trust I hope it will provide a great many opportunities for you to have a good relationship with the new trust and possibly take on more responsibility so those are where we are in terms of heritage we've also as you know although again we've had to make significant spending reductions in terms of the grant made in the future of English heritage we've significantly increased the amount of money that goes into heritage through the law so if one is talking about townships and tents there is a silver lining in some of the spending cuts we've had to make I'm here as well to listen I think that there is a great opportunity to get into more detail over the next 18 months for people from others so I would be interested as I say in any ideas and papers that show the state of archaeology that it is today what opportunities exist to make a relationship between trusts and local authorities and government much cleaner and clearer we do whatever any group of archae says we live now in a world where we are going to have to try and get more or less there is not a jacuzzi to cash or whatever colour is going to be able to turn off we can obviously use the lottery money in the judiciary and there may be imaginative ways that we could look at working with the heritage lot of the fund we are going for but I think these difficult items are an opportunity for the local trust to take it on greater responsibility and clearer law as well as the government and the local trust thank you very much very much minister thank you well we have now heard from all of our panel members and we are going to move towards a more open question session so audience now is your opportunity to ask questions of our speakers and perhaps you might like to bear in mind your questions the minister's invitation to speak about our concerns and I'm sure that local authorities which the minister touched on will be one of those issues that people in the audience will wish to raise so questions please we have a microphone and yes when you ask the question if you could say your name and also your organisation and should you have brought a local government archaeology out there which I haven't described before but I've represented a local government archaeology which you've heard about this afternoon including some of the background from Lisa Hinton and I'll ask to begin by saying yes we are concerned and we do have a specific ask but it's not about money I think we do recognise that more resources from central government is that at the moment we would not like any more cuts we've had so far but our ask and my way of background is about the role of local authorities generally and I think I would say that we are generally supported you've mentioned as well of the government changes to play the recovery which is beginning of the construction sector particularly in the south and around London local government archaeologists are concerned that a combination of the continued squeeze in resources and the increase in staff at the same time as the number of planning applications and developments is increasing is going to cause severe problems in the next couple of years within many local authorities and in many parts of the country to the period before 1990 when most archaeology was destroyed without any record resulting in the whole cell loss of valuable information and our understanding of the heritage and this is mainly to do with undesignated archaeology that which isn't protected by other means and it's the role of local government archaeologists to actually identify that archaeology and to ensure that the advice is given for protection or excavation our question is really is for the parties generally to confirm that they are committed to government scrutiny about the planning authorities to ensure that all are implementing a national planning policy framework with respect to archaeology and providing at least a minimum level of protection for their archaeological heritage locally that there are some sanctions for those local authorities who willfully disregard their responsibility particularly concerned about the contagion domino effect and one local authority decided it's going to ignore the NQPF and those around the local authority say well if they can do it why are we spending money on our archaeology service so I think that's how specific I ask and I think it's an issue that's becoming increasingly serious as resources are squeezed and those decisions are being made within local authorities about whether non-stratuary services should be protected or not Thank you Minister could I ask you to respond in the first instance? Well yes, I can confirm that and I think that you made a good point which I should have made in my remarks once or others who have spoken a major point, a lot of what effects archaeology is of course affected by the approach taken by the foreign communities and the government obviously have to deal with local authorities on issues like libraries where we try to work with them on their proposals for the library plans I think you can have it by meeting the local authority and breaking it right down so I think one thing that is important which you can effectively remind people by making a point is to have a dialogue with local authorities on archaeology matters to check if they are on line to do your favourite thing but also I am new to give me intelligence when you think local authorities are ignoring that and I was willing to get in touch with you and discuss it and I was willing to use my forum I'll be able to fit a message across the local authority should we take the archaeology seriously again I suspect it is the biggest picture those of us who are in parliament representing constituencies will be more aware from their own backyard what was happening I was used to the biggest development of my constituency it appears to be complying they already uncovered the foundation of the Rayman villa and what is interesting about people like that is that it becomes part of the community engagement that gets people excited about the new phone it bothers obviously about the archaeology of the system Do you want to follow that up or do you want me to make wishes to you Yes indeed, I will Yes, thanks It is very happy to hear that I think we will be in touch and I think any messages that you can just mentioned that you can promote inside the government in particular the department of communities that will be helpful I think they will be all very supportive and paucy and it is proven to be very helpful and it has raised the courage to up the agenda within your department but I think it is how it is implemented globally that I think we are concerned about That is what I was saying and I recognise the problem that he faces but I think it might be worth commenting that he exemplified the library's issue I think the last time I looked it is much about the widespread press and the comments about the libraries that are open to the shadow the department was only in contact with four libraries that provide us a library under the field that we would like to reflect on whether or not the model that has been adopted here is really meant to be effective Yes I would and thank you for turning this down into a good old ding dong with the rest of the hour fly by I am reading it now that is a good one and I am a great fan of course by the way it is too cozy but we have reviewed every single proposal by libraries of origin to reconfigure for you for a reason reconfigure their library it is a very tough thing to know you would like to see any library enclosed but sometimes you have to allow local origin to grasp the network to read it better but I can assure you that not a single local authority that has put forward journey to its library service has not had a dialogue with DCMS and I am willing to follow the similar model if it is fully placed for our approach Do we wish to continue this theme for the moment other questions from the audience on the local government theme Adrian Do we have the microphone Adrian is in the Federation of Archaeological Managers and Employers we represent archaeological practices archaeological businesses it is so easy if you like up and down the UK and our members employ probably two thirds of the archaeologists active in this country now you get the example of your couple of trust they are a member of fame for example but they are somewhat exceptional in that many of the many of the larger fame members are educational trusts charitable trusts and so on but in large part their income derives probably 85-90% from their engagement in development led work so even if they stand outside local government for example and are responsible for managing the outsourcing of a local authority unit into an independent charitable trust so I have no particular problem with the principle of that but that in that particular example that organisation that outsourced organisation still depends 85-90% of its income due to its development led work and as was said earlier without the specialist expertise within local authority within surviving within local government that has a very life blood of those organisations so it is absolutely vital from the added word users point of view that those services are maintained and one of the problems of local authorities sharing this sense I think that has to be a way forward I think that by losing too much will that be? I think to a degree that exists those services that are part in house part external and there are prospects in that model surviving but the problem is that you need that I think a number of local authorities sharing have their own in house sharing in house activities yes, I mean that again exists in my colleagues in local government in my life commentaries there is a baseline there is a certain level below which you cannot go and certainly from that point of view if local government provision drops below a certain level they are very life blood really interesting going right back to when we did this state of archaeology report looking at all these questions a number of years ago at hundreds of responses one of the things I found really interesting by the sole argument is is the product of archaeology so is the product of people digging in the ground is the product of what we dig up because we've got warehouses full where you'll come on the board of your archaeological trust and we're going to go and buy a whole new repository to stick all this stuff because nobody's actually interested in what it means once it's dug up or is it the television programs or is it whatever it is this is one of the problems archaeology faces because when we're asking funding authorities funding authorities to come forward with will support you to actually undertake this service but I was finding quite interesting because of due to the very nature of what we've created the amount of great literature that will never be read by anybody is sort of expanding and it's not adding to our summer knowledge one of the problems is we're spending hundreds of millions of pounds over the years in archaeology but archaeology itself or the type of archaeology we want to see expanding is perhaps not doesn't exist in that way I'm not saying it's it's that I just come back with a problem that a lot of people face when we're looking at funding yet is what are we actually trying to achieve through archaeology probably not an answerable question I think there is a consensus and a growing consensus that we should not be carrying out archaeology work simply to entertain our own profession if we're doing it for our own amusement there is no point what we are doing is we are enriching society by public benefit by research progress by actually becoming a creative industry if you like and I think the days when we were content simply to fill in fill fine boxes and produced very interesting reports are thankfully going I think it's a really interesting debate which I think gets us away from the narrow focus of past policy about the place of archaeology and about how archaeology could potentially house reinvention is too strong a word but so I follow on to with this organisation Deep Ventures which may not be enough to raise a rise but I was interested to find an archaeology doing crowdfunding so this may sound utterly heretical to people in the talk but not only is archaeology potentially a massive tourist attraction I was thrilled that I found out that I had this small Roman amphitheater in my constituency which is part of a religious site that existed in that that to me if I was to raise money to have that dug out that would be a tourist attraction but it also as a this is where I get into heretical territory as a leisure activity inviting people to join digs it's very rewarding people would love to spend a day doing that kind of work so there are certainly different ways to engage with the local community and there I say raise revenue at the same time thank you I'll just sit in the ceiling you know the fact is archaeology is great fun and you can involve communities and you can make sure that there is interest in that sort but sometimes you don't find anything and I'm not a big fan of time too but actually that's one of the things I think it has shown the wider community that you find something when you're digging you can expect to find a lot but sometimes you don't and in almost every other foreign science you have that pattern as well you put a lot of money into it into your science but you may not get the results that you are expecting or you may get no results at all so I think it's a false idea that every dig has to produce something that has some sort of I don't know what is that you know when I was an archaeologist there's also the fact that while there's lots of money for digs those days there was often not enough money for the writing up afterwards to make the writing up a really good piece of work so you had a good record of what had actually happened and so I think it's to some extent archaeology has to be seen as something that contributes without necessarily having any result that you can actually grasp and it's very nice to sit here and hear this Why is that a problem? Because you are not seeing the wide benefits of what can be done sometimes research is built up over the years from you know various areas where you dig in one area and you dig in another and you can see patterns of movement or patterns of trade or whatever but sometimes you don't get a number of results from a dig and it's still has value overall but no one's saying it's an eye for all we're saying it's a bokeh well I just didn't see you shouldn't see it in your country I think the thread of this conversation started with local authorities the provision of archaeological advice in local authorities and the concern about the future of those services does anyone want to just loop us back to that key concern, which I think has been a real concern of TAF over recent years John Lewis John Lewis, the general secretary of the site of our office I think they were losing the discussion You're hearing that We could hear you before There's some confusion about the panel funding archaeology funding mechanism, the apparatus that enables it In the conference that we have on 100 years of heritage protection the minister is very glad that he's stood right forward for What came out of that was a couple of things really that archaeology needs that we, if we are to explore our past it's not necessarily directly money First of all it was that we would like the government, whichever party or party to empower provide a sound legislative framework for protecting the past and that includes not to shed the moments and listed buildings but to lead it to the undesignated archaeology your amphitheater that you found in your constituency the stuff 100 years of archaeology like that none of that to shed it So how do we protect our past in an integrated way provide a legislative framework and the second thing that we've talked about today is actually to provide the regulatory body and the regulatory mechanism that facilitates people like members of Adrian's organisation thing volunteer groups if need be to actually go out and explore the past because 90% of archaeology in this country is done in the commercial sector the funding for actually digging the stuff up recording it and reporting on it is generally there from the commercial sector What archaeology has been about that is actually synthesising all that material of more projects and telling regional and national stories of the past we have been about that and I've said that we have been bad but actually talking to the public in language that they can understand rather than talking to ourselves in a very academic way So really what we want is a good legislative structure and a regulator but so something along the lines of off-water off-com off-stair Now I think there is an opportunity here with splitting up for English Heritage there is an opportunity and the Minister actually he mentioned that in terms of a regulator with the building inside being divided off and English Heritage he mentioned a regulator he told you and I think there is an opportunity to really examine now in terms of severe financial stress how the regulation of the statutory protected assets that Shedden Islands and the High Class Service can build in can dovetail more effectively both academically and financially provision regulation provision which is very fragile within local governments there is an opportunity here that I think the sector and the political parties could pull together we could actually come up with a far better answer solution for our heritage than we have at the moment which could be more effective on so many levels Very good point So you want to draw a question out of that Well, I know what I do OK, panel Do you want to comment or? No, I welcome that as a statement I think it's a very interesting point and again I think what I hope to come out is a session which will be better known as it were a manifesto group that we put together recommendations that potentially could be a consensus from most of the archaeological community about the best way forward It is always a pleasure for government to step and pat it before opposition to hear sentences at the end this won't cost you any money but and so thoughtful suggestions that could as I sort of hinted at why everyone was provide great clarity and the kind of opportunities presented by the formal human heritage about how it goes and I'm sure how it goes as well Yes, I think that's exactly right about that If you've got that sort of proposal then get it up and get it down to us and let's see if we can find a cross-party approach to it because it seems to me to be something which is very strong but it isn't that When I see your archaeological trust we will look for that One of the problems I think with English heritage is we look after all these monuments but it does it with one type of branding across the whole of the country Heritage sites find their very nature in the centre of their own community by branding them with a national brand We take away a sense of place a sense of community It's a really interesting idea about this and I'm on a page on this wall trust I want to talk to the Minister about ideas about how we can move on from that because you've got sites which are on page on this wall which are English heritage and you've got sites which are national trust and you see their logos but it's a rumour, not a fact it's not actually owned it was never built by the English Heritage or National Trust You've got English Heritage and there's a National Trust there whereas actually we should start thinking about putting sites back into the local community because I do feel that we're actually saying how do you get people to go back and actually preserve their monuments because the funny thing is all these monuments we're talking about have survived because people have actually worked to make them survive over the centuries they don't just, very few of them have survived in that format they've been lived in, they've been used over the period of time and actually getting people to want to make them be successful I think it's very exciting another thing you can come forward that actually said came up with ideas about that I'm sure it will be welcomed by everyone As the party resighted to form the next government I can promise almost anything I guess The extent to make that mistake You never know that there might be one vote leading if we are green MPs so don't be too rude I did make a note earlier because Peter said in his remarks he said he's happy to help to vote for policy I think that's an excellent way forward because quite honestly if you write for policy political parties are quite often happy to put in a manifesto to put in a manifesto to put in a manifesto and I think that could be a very good news Thank you Peter, I think you were great Well just if I may picking up on my last few points Thank you Amanda Would you mind just pushing a little bit on the very helpful constructive comment to pick his own opinions or scenes and again at the end from Jenny about the issues related to local government services and also English heritage It does seem to some members of the forum and the opportunity forums meeting tomorrow to discuss this in more depth that there is little point in fighting to retain the current status quo of local authority services because they are dying on their feet so re-configuration to use your work I'm sure is what Partiology needs and I'm sure the forum will be happy to provide advice on those points but can I just question again do you believe then that if re-configuration of local authority services bounding together to provide historic environmental services and possibly some re-configuration of national and local authority responsibilities together would that be a process that a government would be happy to assist and facilitate and I'm not necessarily talking about huge sums of money but just using what influence is what leadership has as its disposal to encourage local authorities to take a different and more radical sharing view of services in your share Yes Thank you We've discussed local government services we've touched on English Heritage Maybe we've explored that enough Does anyone else have a follow-up question on the changes at Central in English Heritage in England that are proposed I see a profound lack of interest so maybe it's time to move to something new so who would like to ask a question on British archaeology and we've touched a number of times in the discussion so far on influencing government and across government and Lord Stevenson, before you came Minister, was talking quite helpfully about some of the ways in which we might get heritage in other parts of government and I'm just particularly interested in your experience so far on whether there are ways in which we might be able to assist you with your officials and we recognise that your officials are small in number 2 to make the case for what heritage can contribute right across government departments and my occasion might help the government to seem to me get from itself into potential difficulties as I think it has in a way for example to the victory of 1744 although we still await the government's statement there that will be able to give us much much update on that part so that's the area we're looking hard at and we think there are some difficulties in the way to government starting to get into a position where perhaps it's a bit of an assistive and you're also talking about where there are opportunities for us to make our views known and part of the government's role is to provide frameworks and opportunities for consultations and again an area for example that we've been long awaiting is the treasure act of practice review which I think you promised me your first video diary and that year and a half ago was in a minute and maybe you could give us some of the good news of that but then the key question is how can we get that voice about the contribution they have to write out across government the all-parts and parliamentary archaeology group in its report a long time ago which we saw was influential in suggesting an all part an all government committee a committee of various departments to come together to focus on the contributions and heritage now maybe that's not the way forward that hasn't gone anywhere but are there other things that should be being done that should be helping you at particular this present time I think it's a very difficult problem and it's a great deal and trying to get other government departments engaged is always a challenge so all across my culture I think there are issues of the road education health but we are making a significant progress we are not specifically focused on heritage for a moment but I think we have achieved great success on music and culture education we published two plans on culture education we had a specific section on heritage we launched with English heritage support heritage schools schools to concentrate on teaching children about the built heritage so we have had success there I'm making progress for the world's benefit on libraries with government committees and local governments and I'm much more focused on the fact that libraries are local for our concerns but it takes its hard power for this government department to be working there silencing the faith and I'm sure he's a message just as good but it's a constant conversation and I think I think some kind of ministry or committee would be a very good way to provide those to meet on the phone and things that people had to discuss but I think the core department would be education, health, committees and other government would be CMS in terms of culture and heritage although I think this seems to be a talk again about creating the industry as well we might also have some relevance there so I think that using Parliamentary Champions is a very good idea some of it is in the lab for example trains and archaeologists already at the university and Lord Reedsdale obviously is a senior he's a member of a senior party in the coalition and also carries a great deal of influence as well so again we should discuss that and again I think it's part of the Society of Antiquaries report recommendations about the best way to to support heritage and archaeology across the country I can't do you an update on the treasure act review but I will send an email as soon as possible and I have been fighting very vigorously heritage is a corner in terms of heritage and history and I have been in the ministry of defence and I have learned some valuable lessons in the office space now thank you thank you I think we will certainly follow up on your recommendations to come forward with ideas, suggestions on many of these initiatives many of these initiatives not that it makes sense to make them a little budget but just there are sometimes occasions when it's helpful to see activity going against us if you've got ideas that you think ought to be getting some reservations and direct them to the others as well we have three of us here we have no staff we have limited range and it's a very well active expression of our existence which is a wider public world but it's quite a few hours time there are four questions a day in the alfajars an occasion to give up on the DCNX and I know from those experience if you stand it in a corner who says there's another question I'm going to research and that's the way you get people active again if you put down something that's not too aggressive or political then it can sometimes lead to a useful exchange in either of the chains or in alfajars a lot of things to allow a minister to continue to trample a quite broad range in the case of Lenny as he does there are a lot of people who have said that they're supporting so use us and send us stuff and don't imagine for a second that we know nothing about what it's all about thank you we'll certainly follow up that invitation to find the older occupant laws I think that's a bit cruel actually I think they all do a fabulous job I was in Ireland on weekend when they were voting on the future of the senate which was the one that was in debate where the past has got completely wrong I think they were saying about 40% majority in favour of the abolition of the senate which apparently is a very visible function in fact I know that it's not in your team and I'm going to find something out and tell you where to do thank you we have a question over here at the front from Kate thank you from the heritage of Ireland so this is really a wider question about how the cuisine of the next few years and I do expect the archaeological people because they do do the job of archaeology and I'm talking about the wider heritage but I'm interested in the minister's point about the ministerial committee I do think that we all accepted in the room beforehand that there is no more money but we're not I don't think that for handouts there is a possibility of tax incentives so I have to say from my experience it's quite difficult to get another treasure to agree that tax produces a behavioral change which we would say yes but they wouldn't want that one so I do think that there is an interest in the tax incentives from our side, not just in the creative and cultural industries but also in the repair and maintenance side and also in the tourism side because those are the big industries that are underpinned by our heritage I'd like to ask the panel what they think about tax incentives it's obviously lost by spreading but is that an area where there might be some ideas and certainly the idea of the ministerial committee is an affirmation committed across government to the value of our heritage and tradition and instrument one of the things that committee might address Could we just before our panel addresses that question could you just hold the question a little because I think we'll see if we must leave Just the questions get difficult I thought the laws had nothing to do This is always the follow-up one we've done so many Members of the All-Party group over the years have looked at a number of issues of the ATR issue and of course the first thing people say is great I think let's get a treasury and see if we can get something out of that which point there's an escalator or that's the end of that one I don't see why heritage shouldn't actually receive taxes because especially when it's involved in tourism and it actually brings in enormous amounts of money I mean we forget that your carcological trust we did a business survey and we pulled people from across Europe which actually then looks at their actual stay in in York I was with Durham recently and with the tourism services and they were looking at how do we make the World Heritage Site of Durham a video against that along to talk about it how do we actually turn that so that people come along and visit Durham not just for the afternoon get off the train go to there have company and leave but making it into a two-day trip because the difference on the economy of Durham will be enormous and we had some discussions about that Adrian's wall is another one how do you actually make it from a two-day to a three-day trip which actually and people doing that aren't going abroad and spending them on the embassy I actually think it has an economic sense about it but we then come back to the same problem but I think it's actually for the group you know not for us to come up with but I think it's actually for something to throw back at you guys if you can come up with something that actually makes sense I'm very happy to battle against them all the truth but yes yet because of I think one of the things that is coming out is that we have to look in a new way and how we deal with heritage we have to look at the new funding opportunities and but also one of the things is we shouldn't just think that it's a Government responsibility because Adrian's wall is not owned is owned individually by different landowners across they look after it the enormous amount of money and effort is put in by people who actually own them some of them make money out of what they're doing but if I could say so I totally agree but not just when I'm on the phone it's the thing you've got yeah no I agree it's the historic building association I've talked to them it's amazing what you've achieved by keeping some of these buildings alive and I think the prime example of that was my cousin the Duchess of Demytro he managed to keep that to the line I was told that Nick's attempt to get rid of the house went down to that he was one of those but what was interesting to hear about she has a private a private city this is not a real world you've all around just got hot yes I had that painted anyway but she individually took Chathworth which would probably have been sold off to me taxes, debt duties and the like she probably would have gone a long way she individually started up as a tourist attraction and attracted enough people and then built the amazing farm shop all the bits around it which actually funded the survival plans tourist attraction but people forget how many people that employees how much withdrawal that is to that part of of the world so I quite agree with tax breaks and quite agree across across the board but I think the problem with Nick is that you'd have to come forward with some specific proposals and don't expect it to cap immediately but this is the opportunity if we can get it into the manifesto next year this is the time when policies are willing to be a little bit more open minded Kate's opened up a much wider debate about heritage in general so as and when society produced their report there maybe people want to see some clear policies that address the needs but you may also want to make out with other heritage organisations in terms of general heritage policies that would also help our ability to see what I'm trying to say obviously as a minister I get a lot of representations on tax policy the Stockpiles Association traditionally is very puts forward some very compelling arguments the Treasury is always willing to listen but it does always want evidence as well and it isn't always that easy actually when you put forward a proposal for certain taxes that will save and transform the sector to provide that or to put it the other way the Treasury is making a tax change to show that that is actually a real detriment there are obviously different forms of tax across the board that apply to charities in general or people who make philanthropic gifts which potentially help the heritage sector indirectly and directly that's important and things like the list of places we work at grant scheme are designed to mitigate the effects of a bigger tax change that is seen by the Treasury is generally a good thing in terms of simplifying the tax structure of some indication where it recognises that the previous anomaly has helped a particular sector so there will always be debates I think the other thing that I've left on my list of potentially government members that any ministry around the table would be depth so again I think part of the issue is looking at what the kind of grants government departments give which as a way have a bigger role it could be schemes and department communities and government to help community projects all of which potentially are accessible by heritage organisations so that's another thing that's really a sight of and part of the work perhaps and then the Heritage Alliance does in the site of Antiquaries and the Barcodge Forum to make clear to members are relevant to people that you might be able to access those grants I can't have much to debate, I certainly can't top then I'll open up my cousin Duchess if you're damaging my cousin's full mind doesn't have really as much although it's probably more Duchess than the full minds these days if you're damaging I'm struck earlier by the story about how the form industry has a 25 cent tax break archaeology should have exactly the same because it does draw people in it's a sort of a real interest to tourists and I think that perhaps archaeology needs you must get the most glamorous archaeologists you can find male or female and get them to present it it's cleaning for active progression when you've got that kind of like a break for the film industry it's not generally what you're saying and the small thing about people judging you on your look you must never forget that even the treasury might stand for that step forward please glamorous archaeologists okay we have 5 minutes sorry he's having archaeologists okay we have 5 minutes so from precious question and debating time Kenny hi I've reached some from the plan of research and the ICON just to take the discussion back in the slightly circular I think the most useful contributions from the floor talking about how archaeology how the archaeological profession actually works as professional archaeologists we are not concerned about preservation this is about sustainable development this is about managing environmental change five years ago there was nearly 8,000 people paid to be archaeologists in this country then came the global economic crash now there are less than 5,000 the biggest and most productive in terms of adding to our some total human knowledge about life in the past and the archaeological projects that have ever been in this country have been through chapter 5 archaeologists are desperate perhaps be too to go ahead you want to work with what you've mentioned it will be enormous it will be really significant say even in 2009 just as the crash was really biting the last government put money into capital investment programmes putting a relatively little bit of money into Julian the A46 that has spiked the number of archaeologists in work it's entirely about development and the government's role in facilitating that is what many are so concerned about the role of local government archaeologists is of course crucial they are a hinge sometimes they are a weak hinge in that system but it's the wider development process that is much much more important to people in the the population of professional archaeologists but in this room this forum that's what matters okay I mean I think I'm a big fan of HS2 as well so you were in the 9th archaeologist of the infrastructure I don't know how popular you'll make a profession if you have archaeologists for a third runway I used to work for that I used to work for that I stopped in 1810 everybody I used to work for that I stopped in 1810 everybody How would David said today that more airport classes there will be a runway somewhere but it comes around to the wider question which we've asked before which is the very nature of professional archaeology and we have gone through we did this in the report and there is there is an interesting interesting development I suppose in Union based archaeology which was university based which seems to be on the way now to the larger trusts and will some of those actually survive at the moment which is a big question Mark I mean one of the problems is market forces when you have a profession looking at archaeology you've got a big problem when it stops that's happened in 1991 it's happened I mean look at molats was it 400 archaeologists down to 4 I don't know if it was that but it was ok the figures were pretty annoying which is a problem and we are facing a second problem which is coming down the line which is we've been training vast numbers of archaeologists at university when their fees were paid for now they're paid for their own fees the chances of actually getting a job because it's so small that most people will never work in archaeology to get trade and I have told some of the departments they are looking at a big fall off in the numbers I'm not saying I've got a solution to that but it's going to be interesting how it moves forward and one of the coming back to the local authorities is if you start losing people at that rate you start getting massive gaps in our knowledge you know have we got an expert in Roman singing way anywhere in south England we haven't at all but you end up with these gaps in these knowledge bases disappearing of course once you've lost them it's very difficult to replace those over a period of time so I quite understand the problem you're looking at the only problem with it is we've gone to the market where we're based archaeology and it's rough in the market although obviously we've got a crossover and just to spare the certain chief executive of British Airways studied archaeology I think we've got one time for probably one last question over here thank you the preparation of the heritage and the sort of secretary to coordinate various historic environmental agencies throughout Europe under the control of the commission how do you see this as a way forward for funding for practical help from archaeology in Britain on giving them past records and it's something that we should be keeping away to our side on well Europe is quite good at we should be quite good at supporting culture and heritage and there are often European grants available I confess that archaeology needs to get an element of the debate and probably archaeology we should always be there for you I mean I'm your skeptic trying to learn the idea of taking money from Europe because it's archaeology it does seem in fact one of the things to be about archaeology is not about particularly dig your eyes actually about the wide context and earlier with the question before about managing managing environmental change that's true but sometimes the answer not to dig something up is actually to protect it from the future we don't have to be lucky and I think a little bit more of an overview which is the sort of thing you might get from Europe might be a very valuable thing in fact and I think the problem we've developed that I've driven archaeology is that there is no review and just dig what there is to dig which I think is exciting Just finish as a Europhile as an archaeologist and a Europhile just being on a dig which showed it wasn't that long ago when we actually joined the main man in Britain then the chapel has come along during human history you know we shouldn't forget that most of archaeology is actually based on European practice if you're actually looking at most archaeology if you look at the spread of ideas it doesn't stop at the chapel it goes up and down the whole of Europe and that is the Europhile Thank you for those sentiments from Laura Greensdale it's an excellent point I think at which to bring the question periods of clothes and I'm going to ask Mike Hayworth from Couch of British Archaeology and half member to close the session before I do so can I just give my personal thoughts to the panel I think unfortunately Jenny you must tell us that we have two survivors I'm going to Mike thank you very much I'm glad we've got some survivors anyway and obviously I'd also like to thank all the members of the panel not just the survivors for their really helpful contributions today and also for their contributions in recent years in their various roles Archaeology has come a long way in the last decade or so partly because of Rupert and his initiative to set up the old party parliamentary archaeology group The Archaeology Forum provides the secretariat to that group and it does provide us with a really good opportunity to have dialogue behind closed doors where that's often necessary and useful with key politicians and with other people who can be asked to come and talk to the group Sometimes if we want to go and have a meeting with for example CLG's chief planner we might not be so high on his list of people to meet but if the old party group can ask to meet him and we can be there at the same time it gives us an opportunity to have influence in the right quarters and that's been another real benefit and I think as Rupert said being alive and aware of opportunities as legislation comes forward and continuing to hammer home the messages for the sort of changes we want to see which are often not that significant because government's role really is to create the framework within which we can thrive both as a profession and as a discipline and I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that one of the key things that we have going for us is the huge public enthusiasm and the interest in our work and indeed the public engagement with our work we're not just a profession that relates to a development funded work we actually have a huge public interest in engagement in archaeology through whatever label you want to put on it whether it's public archaeology, community archaeology there are lots of opportunities for people to get involved in understanding their local place and we want to work closely in partnership with them and partnership I think is one of the key messages at the moment it's one of the real benefits of the archaeology forum that it brings together all the national archaeological bodies across the UK this has been a very English focused conversation but the archaeology forum does work across the UK and that's been really helpful as well also in coordinating our messages and making sure that those key messages get across to the decision makers in a useful and united way over the last year or so we've seen some very important developments particularly in Wales and Scotland both Governments have actually produced very significant strategic statements in relation to the historic environment we hope that we might see a similar statement coming out of the government in relation to England in the not too distant future updating the 2010 document that Pete referred to earlier on but we need to be looking ahead and clearly this is a timely event one of the reasons why we set this event up now is because we are very conscious that manifestos are starting to be written where we have particular asks because our absolutely fundamental ask is around that statutory duty in relation to local authorities to ensure that that underpinning of the whole system in relation to develop a funded archaeology can flourish and it's not one that requires a huge amount of public finance it's one that levers in a huge amount of private finance and that's a real message we need to keep hammering home particularly at local level where often that's not really understood people still generally have the view that this is a lot of public funding so this has been a very timely event and we are very grateful to all of you who have come along and contributed through questions and your support if you have further thoughts on some of the issues that have come up today do feed them through to any of the constituent bodies that make up the archaeology forum and clearly we'll want to maintain that dialogue with Ed and his team with other parties as well to try and ensure that whoever forms the next government that they have our interests at heart so thank you very much for coming today and we look forward to your contributions and support over the course of the next year and a half and thank you again particularly to our power members thanks