 Okay, I think we can go to the first session which is entitled Culture and Environmental Sustainability, Perspectives of Policymaking, Signs and Research, Culture, System Change and Cross-Sectoral Synergies. Quite a lot of things there that we have on our plate and we have only 45 minutes for a very interesting panel that will be moderated by Jan-Jap Knoe from the Bookman Foundation of the Netherlands. So we will have invited them to reflect on the European Green Deal, which is Europe's flagship initiative. And we have asked the experts to explore how culture policy, we now heard just young people bringing in some concrete proposals, but how do you embed a green notion in culture policy? And so this will be the topic of the next or the first session of this panel. I'm not going to waste more time. I hand the pleasure to Jan-Jap. Hello everybody. Welcome in this session. We just heard some very strong messages from two young ones. I don't know if everybody who is listening now also heard them speak, but they had a strong message and they actually said concerning the climate crisis, it will change or it will end. So that is quite a strong question that we are going to face in the next 45 minutes with three guests that you will hear. Each of our guests will do a short statement of five minutes. Then I will ask one or two questions, but not too many since we want to have time. Also for a conversation between the three of our speakers at the second phase of our session, I will briefly introduce the three speakers of today to you. And they will all in their own way reflect on the question how cultural policy should change if we want to overcome the big challenge that climate change is putting to us. And one of the first is Allison Tickle. Allison, you are a director of Julie's Bicycle. I read at your website that actually you started this organization of you in 2006 by riding your bicycle, not your car, by riding your bicycle to a meeting in London. You will have more time afterwards, but can you in one or two sentences introduce yourself? Yeah, thank you so much, and everybody for being here. I'm Allison Tickle. I founded Julie's Bicycle. Actually, we started officially in 2007 really focused on what the role of culture was in meeting this climate crisis and what it needed to look like in a very practical as well as a creative and conceptual way. We'll come back to that later. Our second guest is Sebastian Brüner. You are from Germany working at the Kulturschtiftung des Bundes. I want to say it in German, but you can say it in English. Please introduce. Hi, my name is Sebastian Brüner. I work for the German Federal Cultural Foundation, which is a funding institution that promotes art and culture within the scope of federal competence. I'm the project coordinator of the funding program Doppelpass, Theater Corporation Fund, and I'm part of a team that is developing new funding approaches such as recently a new theater funding program, Jupiter Theater for Young Audiences, or right now a new project that supports carbon footprinting in cultural institutions. And we also hear more from you after Allison has spoken. And from Germany, we move to Greece. We have Chris Karas in our middle. You are director of the Onassis Cultural Center in Athens. On your website, I found a very intriguing text that your center is a space where art, aesthetics, and science meet. Can you elaborate one or two sentences on that before I give the floor to Allison? Yes, of course. Good morning, everyone. Onassis Stegi, which is a division of the Onassis Foundation here in Athens, is indeed a transdisciplinary art center. So it's not a theater, it's not a concert hall. It's an exhibition space, but it's all of that at once. And it's especially a space in which we try and find connections between not only the art forms across the spectrum, but also their relationship to society and the critical issues that society is facing today. So that's why we put the emphasis very much on the way we connect to various aspects of our world. Okay, thank you for that. Well, I think it's time to move on to the statements. I mentioned already the two young people, the two young theater actors from Düsseldorf, we listened to. And they said it's about something bigger, this issue, than just a printing paper. I think, Allison, you will agree with them, but I invite you to share some more thoughts with us on cultural sector and climate change. Please go ahead. Thank you. Thank you very much, Jan. And I'm very glad to be here on this particular Thursday morning and to share with you and my fellow panelists some good experiences of positive climate action in culture and in theater. Since the weekend, I feel much less dismal as a consequence of what happened in the United States, as I'm sure you do too. Partly because it speaks to a point that is very relevant and we've already heard about this morning, that the climate and ecological emergency needs all of us to work quickly, collaboratively, and with an absolute focus, there is no time to lose. I know that this pandemic has shock, shockingly accelerated an inevitable great reckoning with our deeply broken economic systems, which are in turn breaking our planetary systems. We've already heard about this this morning, and getting to grips with this emergency, understanding how theaters can implement radical change is frankly impossible to do, maintaining business as usual. The rethinking is now an imperative. Julie's bicycle is a company I started 13 years ago which has been exploring this intersection between culture and climate, since we started. And most of that focus has been very practical. What we've founded on two central ideas. One is that the climate crisis is in actual fact a cultural crisis, a crisis of values, and a crisis of what we care for, and two, that we cannot wait for the existing system, the status quo to sort this out for us because it can't, it brought us here, we've got to change the system and that means a step change in cultural policy, investment training and tools. We're trying and mobilizing international approach that embeds sustainability and justice into the fabric of theater. So what might this look like, we have all the key frameworks in which national and international targets sit. There is the Paris climate agreement, the sustainable development goals, the circular economy, emerging biodiversity and nature frameworks and of course, the Green Deal. These together represent, I think, four key themes. There is decarbonization, the immediate rapid and urgent reduction in greenhouse gas emissions to net zero, circularity, a waste free economy that moves away from excessive consumption of finance resources. For free, there is nature, restoring, protecting biodiversity and natural heritage, and for justice and this last is perhaps the most important, because I have come in my 13 years of working in this space to realize that without justice we are lost. The origins of the climate and ecological crisis are in large part founded on the prevailing attitude of human supremacy, celebrated too often in culture over other forms of life, which has fostered an enduringly uneven global which has dispossessed millions of people of land, livelihoods and degraded the natural world. So the story of climate change isn't found in the ice caps. It lies in the buried histories of human conquest anchored in cultural values that celebrate the idea of human supremacy. This is why the climate crisis is a cultural crisis. What does policy sit in all this? Well, policy reflects our civic values, and it is the tool of power that strengthens them, and therein lies the opportunity. So Julie's bicycle has been deeply involved in policy since 2010, recognizing that systems approach that we need to work with the system. The London theatre music and visual arts sectors early in 2010 with the city's climate policy. And since then we've consistently worked with cities with organizations and with creative sectors on policy framing, most notably with our arts council work which in 2012 embarked upon the largest programme of environmental literacy for culture anywhere in the world, making environmental requirements a funding requirement that really changed the game. Over 800 arts companies have had to measure environmental impacts using our culturally specific carbon calculators and have an active environmental policy. This decade of data gathering and collective learning has generated invaluable data, but more importantly, cultural transformation and cultural transformation which aligns very nicely with the Green Deal. Together with many people, including Christoph, Ben, Yenia, we've co-created the largest sustainable cultural resource library anywhere in the world, and it's all free. You're welcome to it if you go onto the website. And during this time, a new ecology of creative climate practice has been emerging all over the world, and many of you might recognize us yourselves in this framework. They all map across to the European Green Deal, but I just wanted to very quickly finish on talking and just naming them. There are five key areas of activity operating on two new working principles that need to be enshrined in policy. They cherish our planet. These two are collaboration, which is superseding competition and path finding, which is superseding the status quo. We see this new creative ecology in one, artwork, curation, exhibitions. Two, our people, our campaigns, our activists, new cultural activists speaking to their truths. Three, organizations and organizational leadership. Our organizations embody our values. There's such a huge opportunity for theater to co-habit leadership, collaborating on change. Four, our makers, our social and material designers and our innovators. And five, our influencers, our policymakers and our funders. Here's the reality check. 2020 is set to be the warmest year on record, and we are in the midst of a catastrophic extinction event. We know we can do this. Emissions dropped by a staggering 8% this year, and that is phenomenal. The reasons for that are extremely dysfunctional. We need to choose change, not wait for it to happen upon us. We are everywhere. Renewal is bubbling up and gathering momentum and in this movement of change, everything matters. All the small actions and the connections speaking to cultural values that cherish and care. Theater has a long history of activating social and more recently environmental change, but it is nowhere near enough. This year, in the run up to the next climate talks, the most important climate talks that we've ever had, and it is our last chance. Next year in Glasgow, the COP 26 talks, we have a once in a generation opportunity to transform a creative economy that is no longer fit for purpose into an ecology that is equitable, collaborative, resilient and restorative. It is critical that policy meets that challenge. Thank you so much. So now you see me again. Yeah, thank you. You've also listened to the young ones said that the two actors from Germany, and it was striking that they also emphasize this importance of cooperation. But they also called for more attention for the small cultural initiatives, because it might be much more easier for big houses to deal with this issue, or do you think it's the other way around that we need the small initiatives particularly. So very often we found that smaller companies smaller operations are much more adventurous in what they do. It's partly the structure they can make decisions much faster. They're generally a little bit more experimental and bit more that's what you find more innovation there. There's a lot to learn from big institutions that a lot of new ideas are being trailblazed by smaller companies, bigger organizations can do some of the structural shifts faster, and that means that they can, they can also take more risk. So I don't, I wouldn't split this up. I think this is incredibly important that we locate ourselves wherever or whoever we are in this new ecology creative ecology. We recognize, and this is where policy becomes very important. We recognize where our agency lies, and we work out what we can do directly and what we need around us, what our influence might be. So I think it's really important at the moment that we recognize agency and ambition everywhere we are in the creative community. We don't wait for another, for anybody else to do this for us. Thank you. I think we move on to Sebastian and then later on I will come back to you as well, Alison. Sebastian Brunner, you are from the Bundesstiftung Germany you are a funding organization. I'm very curious, since funding is often so important for cultural organizations, how you look at the role of an organization like yours in addressing the issue we have at stake today. Please, Sebastian, go ahead. Yeah. Thank you for the invitation to be with you here today. And I would like to focus exactly on this. Well, particularly on greenhouse gas emissions and cultural policy. And well, you talked already about the challenges of climate change and political goals. And you mentioned the Green New Deal. Let me add from a German perspective, Germany's goal is to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 55% by 2030, compared to 90 90 levels. And these goals, of course, can only be achieved, as Alison also said, if they understood as a task for society as a whole. And this transformation process has to happen in the cultural sector too. So it's not only a matter of art itself to creatively shape this transformation process and to make the dramatic changes tangible and a way through art. But it's also a matter of the production of art and the carbon footprint of art. And at least in Germany, in the cultural landscape so far, I think we lack a broad knowledge and experience in order to implement specific cross sectoral approaches, something that Alison already called environmental or carbon literacy. And but we also lack tools and guidelines in the cultural sector. And this is where policymaking comes into play. And even though the German Federal Culture Foundation is not a policymaker, a classic policymaker, we are not part of the federal government. Of course, we aim to have an impact with our funding programs and with our funding guidelines. And we try to set examples and promote possible role models in order to initiate and support transformation within cultural institutions. But how do we do that? We're not simply imposing prohibitions, neither we believe in plain voluntary commitment. We go something like a middle way. We try to develop funding programs that do imply restrictions, but we do it together with artists and cultural institutions. And we provide platforms in order to do so. So let me give you an example. Last year, within the program I manage, within the theater program Doppelpass, we had a gathering of 150 theater makers. And we discussed questions like how can we work internationally and ecologically in times of climate change? What kind of funding would be technically possible and artistically interesting? How about climate justice in the cultural sector? And nonetheless, does artistic freedom and ecological sustainability fit together? Back then, last year, the majority of participants said quite clearly, we want more rules, we want strict guidelines, and only few participants saw this as an inappropriate intervention into artistic freedom. Well, that was last year before Corona. However, as a reaction to these discussions, this year we set up a pilot project that supports 20 cultural institutions in carbon footprinting and reducing their carbon footprints. And participants are museums, libraries, concert halls, theaters, also theaters, which are among us, like Stadtschorch-Piedresen, Schaub-Güne-Berlin, Muzantum, Kampnage, Stadtscherta-Darmstadt. And we want to set an example in Germany, and we want to learn with the institutions, what are the insights when you do carbon footprinting, how hard can it be, and what are the possibilities to reduce the footprints. And one of the consequences of this pilot project could be for us next year, exactly linking the distribution of funds to aspects of ecological sustainability. Thus, eventually some or eventually all projects funded by the foundation would have to be the requirement of carbon footprinting and develop specific goals to reduce the footprint. This is quite similar to the approach of the Arts Council and Julius Bicykel, though it is more complicated in Germany because of its federal structure, and the foundation does only provide project funding. And now there is Corona, but I'm deeply convinced that we have to tackle the issue despite Corona or particularly because of Corona. Thank you. You seek in Germany a kind of middle way, as you describe, and not so much impose restrictions on the cultural sector, but by way of talking with the cultural sector, see how you can make together progress when it comes to address the issues of sustainability. But having heard Alison Stolk and she, she had a quite an urgent message. Do you think that is enough? Shouldn't we be more strict and do more in terms of conditions for subsidies in terms of norms or accountability of cultural institutions? Can you elaborate a bit more on that? Yeah, I wish we would, well, I wish we could be more bold in this sense. But I also think that cultural institutions are facing so many challenges. It's not only ecological and environmental issues, it's hierarchies, it's power, it's me too, it's diversity, the digital issues. And so there are so many topics and we have to somehow, well, at least our understanding is to give an example and to have a group that can set an example and somehow lead away. We don't believe that we have to lecture all those institutions how to perform their change. And so also focusing on the part of the dialogue again, I think it's crucially important that in this sense artists and cultural institutions get involved in the dialogue with policymakers as well, because change is going to happen anyways. And it's simply an open question how, for example, Harad Welser puts it, whether it will be changed by design or changed by disaster. And we still have the opportunity to shape or at least influence the conditions of artistic work in Germany. And I encourage artists and cultural institutions in Germany very much, but also on an international level to get involved, because it's not only a matter of money, it's a matter of ideas. And so if you have an idea, step forward, we have to do this together. In that sense, Alison, she gives culture a unique position in this discussion. She actually says it's not only a climate change that we have to face, but to face that climate change, we need cultural change. So she strongly stresses this unique position of culture. Do you agree with her that culture has a indeed unique position in this discussion that is not the same as, well, let's say the sports or the world of other industry. I agree. I totally agree, because like from a scientific point of view, they always say we put out the facts, but culture can make it tellable, tangible. And so the role of art is very important and the role of cultural institutions is very important, because from a self perspective and self understanding, especially from theaters, they understand their role in society in the middle of this transformation process to initiate and to to initiate change and to be critical. So, but my point would be, it's not the art itself, it has to be the way how the production of art itself as well. Not just to basically preach it on stages and in exhibitions, but also to live it themselves. Okay, thank you. I'll come to back back to you later, but we move on to Christos to Athens, where Christos Carras is director of the Onassis Cultural Center, a big house in terms of theater organizations. So I'm also curious, Christos, when you will talk how you see the difference between big theater houses and smaller ones, but please take the floor and let us know how you as executive director of a big cultural organization are working on sustainability. Well, thank you very much for the imitation. We've been working for about three years now in collaboration with Julie's bicycle, Hi Allison. And to improve overall our performance at the level of cultural sustainability and output or impact on the environment, and in other levels as well. I think it's important to say that the only way to approach this is in a sort of holistic way you can't, you can't work at one level and not at all the others. So we were discussing earlier about whether, you know, attitudes and mentalities and perceptions have to shift first, or whether we have to do other more structural things. I think it goes both ways. These things have to happen simultaneously. It's like a widening of the circle of awareness as we go. And the thing is that dominant perceptions and public perceptions are quite volatile at the beginning of the corona crisis. And one suddenly discovered the beauty of lower emissions and everything. As time goes on, we read reports about people planning to travel more after the crisis so you know, perceptions are perception and public attitude is volatile, and you need to somehow fix the framework in policy, and in your internal procedures, in order to both maintain, let's say the discussion going and actually make a practical difference. Speaking of Europe now, it's a great moment with this new green deal that sets this kind of framework. I think in the cultural sector, I think many of us are active in programs like Creative Europe or Erasmus Plus or maybe even a horizon, but I think it will be very important that this, and I'm sure it's the case that these green policies will be reflected in the funding and in the priorities that will be expressed through these programs of the European Union. The same goes for for each state on its own and of course there's a very wide discrepancy here. But again, there has to be a lobbying on the part of the society and of the cultural sector for a more, more inventive, let's say incentives and policies at a state level. However, we're talking about what we can do, and here as well, what we can do is actually integrate policies and practices in our everyday work, and this is what we have to do. And in this respect, it's sometimes easier for a larger organization to do this than a small one because they have possibility of measuring, of controlling, of assessing, of monitoring. On the other hand, smaller organizations can make a very quick impact on what they do. And I'm talking about things, speaking from a larger organization, things structural things like integrating green responsibilities into job titles and job descriptions, setting performance indicators of various kinds that are related to environmental performance, making the procurement policy equally dependent on issues of an environment as on a just cost, working on the FNB outlets that we will have, you know, making sure that they also follow, working on reducing our footprint, both in energy and printing and waste and water use. I mean, these are things that you have to integrate into your structure and make it known outside as well to the public in order to show that things can be done and that this is a real issue on which you're taking action. So, coming to a third level, I think what's important is that we realize to what degree we have communication power to use Manuel Castell's terms, especially these days when all cultural organizations are basically becoming broadcasters. That's what we do. We broadcast content, unfortunately, for the moment. Therefore, in a sense, we're like media organizations in a way, and we have to use this media power, this media presence for the purpose of also getting out the sustainability message, which we can only incredibly do if it's part of the way we work. And at the fourth and last level, the most obvious one is how to, Sebastian said this nicely, how to make this tangible through narratives through stories, through experiences that our audiences have hopefully in the future in our physical life as well. But this is a very important thing. But they go together. We have to change our system the system supports the attitudes and the awareness this feeds back into the system and so on. So it's not a question of prior, all this has to be done at the same time. Thank you. Okay. All of this has to be done at the same time. Good. And yet, so difficult. Everything has to be done at the same time. If you would be in charge of the European policy for the moment. What would be your first step. You have to be very careful because I think Barbara guest list on the guest list. So I have to be very careful what I say. I think that definitely green policies sustainability issues should be a part of the assessment of applications. And I think that just as there was a strand in the past for mobility. There should be a strand now for environmental sustainability of practice. And since we mentioned mobility, this is I think a very complex and crucial issue because one of the whole points of the European support for culture is to create inter-Europe mobility of cultural actors and works and it would be terrible to lose that we all understand that there's a contradiction there with with environmental issues. This is a very difficult conundrum, and it's made even more difficult because of the regional differences. It's very different being in Germany, Switzerland, France or the Netherlands to tour your production by train. It's very different if you're in Bulgaria, Greece, or Malta to Cyprus to tour by train or in sustainable ways. So there's a lot of work to be done there in preserving the vision of a trans-European cultural sector and building in environmental sustainability. So it's a very, very complex issue. I want to bring you all back in the discussion also Sebastian and Allison to have more conversation between the three of you. And my first point would be that we have heard Christos talking about this need to in change of perception, holistic approach he actually concluded. And as Christian noticed that there is still so much lack of knowledge. Allison, you talked about carbon literacy. Let me first start with this point of is there a lack of knowledge or don't we want to see what is actually happening to the climate? Also we as people working in the theatre sector, Allison, do you think there is enough awareness that this is really an urgent thing? The short answer that is definitely no. And Christos, I really appreciate what you said about this need to act simultaneously. So to speak directly to your question, Jan, I think there is a lack of knowledge. I think that this feels very overwhelming. You know, what we've done is to is to be bombarded by very big statistics that actually don't really feel like they belong to us. Even though we are witnessing it bodily in our bodies, some of the anxiety, some of the grief, some of the loss, we see it around us, we see some of the inequity. But the frameworks for that really are quite technocratic. They're very often political climate change has been politicized, which is terrible. And so therefore it feels that we don't really have a purchase over them. The first thing to say is that the more we know about climate change as individuals as well as as sectors, the more urgent it becomes. And this is not a particularly easy journey on to go on and you realize very quickly on that pathway that actually this is the only thing that really matters. It's a very generous agenda, because it reaches into everything that we do, all the decisions we make. But it is a very generous and a very regenerative agenda once you're actually on that journey. It's not easy. And the most important thing is actually how you translate these really big stories are these really big statistics these really big frameworks into your everyday thinking and doing. And although it's not easy, it is very, very exciting, incredibly inspirational. It's an amazing opportunity to really think about ourselves in relation to up to one another and to the world. But we need to know so much more. We have got nothing like enough urgency or speed. What makes it so inspirational? Do you have an example you would like to mention that really shows that it can be very inspiring actually that it can be fun to do work on environmental sustainability. So I'll talk about me first. I have had such a great time over the last 13 years, meeting some of the best people in the world who are really engaged with this I have been so blessed to be doing this work some of them are on this call now. So that's the first thing and that's been deeply fulfilling. But on a broader level, the opportunity this gives us for creative rejuvenation and regeneration with a deeply ethical moral shared purpose to come together in community to rethink who we are in relation to this absolutely wonderful planet we live on and in relation to one another and our communities is the most exciting creative challenge that any of us could ever have. So the short answer is what an amazing opportunity we've got. Great pitch. Who is not convinced by that, you would say, but Christos, you have a question nevertheless. A little question I'd like to add something to what Alison said about our experience within our organization here. You know, a lot of people feel that they are aware of the climate crisis, but they're afraid they can't do anything about it. So within an organization like us, creating a green team, which works across all the departments and reaching out to all the staff members and getting them engaged in actually doing practical things in their everyday work life has, I think, really energize people because they suddenly realize that they can make a difference in the way they work and the way they run their life generally. So I think that's also a form of engagement that's important to support. Okay, Sebastian, representing a funding organization that, as far as I know, is also engaged in international work and not only project funding in Germany itself. How do you look to the questions about mobility since over the past years we have stimulated so much mobility between artists, between students, and like Christos also pictured out. But there are dilemmas, of course, and returning again to the two young actors we've heard, they had a plea for being local active in culture. Your sound, Sebastian. Okay, sorry. Totally. I think that's the most difficult issue, actually, the mobility part. And as a cultural foundation, this is basically aiming at the core of our foundation as well because we support international work and we want to continue to support international work. And so how is that possible in times of climate change? And as Christos already said, I think there's not a general answer for everybody because it makes a huge difference where you live and where you want to show your pieces and where you want to work. There's also a big question of climate justice for European artists is a privilege that they've been able to travel for the last 40 years, and now they maybe do a little bit less, but other artists from all over the world, they need this mobility. So I don't have a simple answer to that, but I'm pretty hopeful, at least from our discussions, that there are also artistic solutions to that, to think about, as Alison pointed out, as a chance to think of artistic solutions and productions that might also kind of reshape the way of how you don't need to travel for artistic work anymore, or at least also the time of curation. When you put together your festival program, there's been so much talk about how you can actually travel less and still make a good program. So I think we come back to the point of exchange, to stay in dialogue, and from a policy point of view, well, to support, first of all, to support these ideas, and at least for us again, it's the way of thinking of setting examples and to promote role models, how to do it. That would be actually our understanding to really promote good ways of working together. Yeah, but you wouldn't go so far as a funder, or do you think that other funders should go that far, that they forbid flying with subsidy money, for example? Well, of course, that's a discussion, maybe not flying in total, but for sure, short-haul flights, or national flights, that could be a question. But again, that could work maybe for Germany, but how about Cyprus? That doesn't work. So I think it has to be specific solutions then in the realm of the scope of your policy. Do you think that would work for Greece, not Cyprus, but Greece, and now flying? I don't think the solution is to have a complete ban on flying. It wouldn't work easily for Greece. It's very difficult to tour a production from Greece by train. What we need to do is to really eliminate any non-essential flying. I think we've all learned from this experience that really you don't need to get up from Athens and fly to Copenhagen for a two-hour meeting. That's something which we might have done a year ago. I might have done it stupidly, but I won't do it again. That's for sure because I've learned I can do very well without it. And as Sebastian said, the whole curating process can be improved. So I think it would be a real shame if we can't keep this exchange of cultural production going through Europe. I think it's a super important part of what Europe is and what Europe could be. So I wouldn't go as far as saying that we can say no flying, but I think we have to prompt governments to develop infrastructures that make flying less necessary. I think as responsible professionals we have to really not fly unless there really is no other way to get a result. Okay, thank you. And we have five minutes left for this session. So we have to use our time. I've seen your hand, Alison, and I will give all the three of you the opportunity for a final, a short message. That's okay. I have one question from the chat that I want to address specifically. Since we have little time for audience participation, but now we have a question that is a question to Sebastian, actually. And it's from Stefan Bergman. And he asked, you mentioned some examples, but they were all from bigger venues. And he asked, is it more difficult for smaller structures to join your program? So here I am. I guess this question regards the pilot project that we are doing right now. And these are basically rather bigger venues. That's true, because we want to really, well, tackle the big structures. But for sure, as also Alison and Crystal said, eventually it has to be all of the venues as well. That's for sure. Okay, thank you. Well, Alison, you are invited to make your concluding statement, if you like. Thank you. Yeah, just I just wanted to quickly pick up on the travel touring flight thing. First of all, there are mechanisms. For example, if we have carbon budgets, we can make choices around travelling around what we actually spend our environmental bill on. So there are ways where you can keep choices going, you can keep travelling, but you actually work within limits, which speaks to my final concluding point, which is that really it was made by Christos, that what we do in a very intimate way actually needs to reflect what our policy is going to do, but that we need to bring together intimate, small, organisational or personal policy and values, and meet the bigger frameworks across them. And that really does mean that we have to very rapidly accelerate the knowledge sharing that we already have. There was a point that was made by the Fridays for Future team around disclosure about really coming, coming, being very open about what we do. And above all, the best, the biggest thing to say is really collaboration, let's work together, let's strengthen one another, let's come together and meet this challenge together. Thank you. Thank you. Sebastian, to conclude. Yeah, I would like to take the opportunity here to actually tell a wish. I think because it's important to address European policymakers and European funding institutions as well. And I wish we could continue this kind of exchange on a policy making level, and to come together and further explore the question, how can we link the distribution of funds to aspects of ecological sustainability. Not every country and not every country and not every county has to invent the wheel entirely new. And I think we have to share the experiences and knowledge because in the end, at best, there should be some kind of comparability or standard. If you are an artist, and are you are applying for funds at different places. For example, you're applying for a fund at the U level and at the German Culture Foundation. As for environmental policies or carbon footprints, these requirements should not be entirely different. And that would be great if we can pick up this thought and follow it up. Okay, thank you for that. Christos, you have to find a word. I just like to say because you know I think many colleagues might be sort of a bit scared organization of embarking on something like this. And what I'd like to say in closing is that it's been and it still is a great experience organization and actually, it's done a lot of good to the organization to work together for something that's so obviously good and uncontentious as climate crisis. So I would recommend over and above the benefit to the universe for the organization. It's a good experience as well. Okay, thank you. And then we are back at the inspiration that Alison also pictured to us. I think you all for your very clear concise statements. I can say to the audience that in the next session, we will go deeper into the theater practice. We will discuss then how the theater organizations, the performing arts world can really embed sustainability in its organization. Thank you again. And this day has the title Making Progress. Today is the second day of the European Theater Forum. It is about making progress. Well, progress you can only make by setting small steps. I hope this discussion added a few small steps to this big challenge that is before us. And thank you all again and see you later hopefully during this European Theater Forum. Thank you. Well, thank you very much Jan-Jap Knor for this very dense session where we'll announce a short break of 10 minutes now. The Zoom webinar will remain open during the break and then we'll go on with the second session that has just been described. So see you later.