 I believe we are live now um okay so hello everybody thanks so much for being here um again my name is Stokely and I work with Howround Theatre Commons um so this is the second time Howround is doing a live stream virtual panel on Zoom and we've been trying them out as a way to help conversations um that are global accessible and done in real time so thank you so much Aviana for approaching us with this fabulous panel idea um so we think uh that you know we'd love to start more of these conversations like this um and we think this is a really important conversation especially to have around the future of crowdfunding with artists of color and anyone who is passionate about a subject and who believes they have a topic that's a learning for the field is welcome to pitch a Zoom conversation idea to us so if you're interested in hosting a Zoom panel you can reach out to us via the contribute page on Howround.com and so folks watching at home um you can also join the conversation today by using the hashtag Howround on Twitter or by leaving a comment in the comment section and we've already got a couple of those which is great so I'm just going to introduce your moderator Viviana excuse me so Viviana Yorafapi Vargas Saltaviera is a two-spirit indigenous Latinx artist activist and arts manager they work with others who are passionate about changing the world specifically through the medium of storytelling and by creating liberated spaces that uplift marginalized voices and experiences they manage our advancing arts forward a movement to advance equity inclusion and social justice through the arts Yorafapi is currently working on a decolonization project throughout Latin America specifically in Kichwa communities of what is current day Ecuador they are a cycle four fellow of the Caribbean cultural center African diaspora institutes innovative cultural advocacy fellowship and part of art equities 2018 national facilitator training cohort they hold an MFA from Brooklyn College and a BFA from Boston University cool so without further ado take it away Viviana amazing yes welcome hello everyone I just want to start off by acknowledging that we all as panelists are on stolen indigenous land both in now what is known as north and south America which is where I am at today so I just want to take a moment for us to honor the original ancestors and offer respect to indigenous people who are still here on the lands around the world and around the world knowing that this is only one point of a longer journey of healing from settler colonialism you by Johnny thank you I also want to take a moment to acknowledge acknowledge the end of Black History Month yesterday which we where we have taken time reflecting honoring celebrating and healing from the history of anti-blackness racial injustice in the US and here where I am in Latin America and around the world and also acknowledging the history and truth that anti-blackness still exists today both within white folks and people of color because of white supremacy it's also the first day of March which we celebrate as women's history month and development disabilities awareness month deaf history month is also beginning on March 13th later this month although we don't have an ASL interpreter on now we are going to have the conversation transcribed for available for later viewing on the same page that it's on now on HowlRound so overall it is a great day for collective liberation meaning that I am not free until you are free and we are all here and we can work to support historically and currently marginalized communities through the arts and that's what advancing arts forward is about that's the movement the company that I started and partnered today here with HowlRound to have this conversation um I yes I go by Viviana Vargas Salvatierra also Yura Sapi which means roots of the tree in Kichwa which is one of the living indigenous languages of various people here in Ecuador where I am today and the spark for this conversation in particular the future of proud funding for theater artists of color began late last year after the movement theater company ended their Kickstarter campaign their historic hashtag 25 K and 25 days campaign and I interviewed them and Deidre and Eric are here representing the producing artistic leadership team on how they did this campaign how they were successful in doing and raising $25,000 in 25 days and then that discussion kind of developed evolved after speaking with Jessica Massart who is also here and the staff at HowlRound into what it is now this opportunity for us to have a live panel conversation with different theater artists who have been successful in different platforms of crowdfunding and so I'd like to just offer a moment for each of you who are on here with me today to introduce yourselves the question I'll ask here is tell us about yourself and briefly about your experience crowdfunding for theater and I think it'd be one to two minutes per person and then we'll get more into details throughout the conversation but again tell us about yourself and briefly about your experience crowdfunding for theater so I'll start with Paul hello everybody my name is Paul Flores I'm a theater maker here in San Francisco I consider myself Latino Mexican Cubano and have been working in the Latino community here developing all kinds of different arts opportunities for people in the Bay Area since 1995 since I started working and health co-found youth speaks moved over to La Peña Cultural Center was working there and now I currently am an independent artist and make theater by collaborating with other organizations all over the United States and internationally mostly Latino based content with other Latino artists but certainly reach out to the immigrant community as well as the African-American community the Latinx community and through my history of making theater I've done a couple of different crowdfunding projects the most recent one that I've done that I'm doing right now so yes you can check out my online stuff right now is Patreon I am raising funds for a project that is premiering May 10th through 12th at Yerba Buena Center for the arts in San Francisco called We Have Ide which is about Afro-Cuban immigrant artists in the United States and Cuban-American experience here so I've been working with Patreon for about a year so I just want to give kudos for you guys raising 25 grand in 25 days that is like amazing to movement theater that's dope I've been working with Patreon for a year and through all a total kind of I guess different donation routes I've raised a little bit over 11 grand and I don't know if you want me to talk about Patreon right now Viviana or just mention that I work on Patreon.com. I think that's good for now yeah thank you let's go to Kitt. Hi everyone my name is Kitt I use they she and he and I am a writer I write plays musical screenplays from poetry this my experience with crowdfunding most recently so I will say that I have crowdfunded and then community type engagement pretty much like throughout my maybe like 10 year career now this past summer we raised just shy of $80,000 in cash and in kind donations probably like $70,000 in cash to go to Interstate which was a musical that was in the New York musical festival and it we had a team of about 40 women trans folks queer folks people of color working on this musical we did it through a whole mix of platforms and a lot of people worked on it so I'm here but the people who are not here that were working on this were those 40 folks and then also my musical collaborator Melissa Lee and three producers we did it on Kickstarter Fractured Atlas and on Fractured Atlas we did a bunch of just like individual outreach type emails and we also had a sponsorship from the musical theater factory oh and we currently used trip to to do ongoing crowdfunding and we worked with Jessica which was very exciting yeah yeah why don't we go to Jessica? Hey I'm Jessica my pronouns are she her hers I've been working in theater dance her performance art for about the past decade mostly as an arts administrator kind of focusing on marketing and communications or storytelling audience engagement I like to help people think about how to frame a piece how to share it out into the world before I joined Kickstarter I did run two crowdfunding campaigns on a couple different platforms if we're being honest so I've gone through the experience myself but these days I'm really most of my job here at Kickstarter is focusing on the one-to-one helping artists and companies figure out how crowdfunding fits into their process and how to incorporate it more smoothly into what they're doing so I do that one-to-one I'm also inside Kickstarter an advocate for the field and the day-to-day this looks like can we get this artist on the home page can we get somebody into a newsletter but also means things like looking at the product and how can we change it and make it better for people in theater and introducing initiatives like the one we just launched this week called performance in progress yeah nice yeah folks at the movement hey I'm Eric Lockley and I'm Deidre Harrington we're both producing artistic leaders of the movement theater company we used this fall we did a Kickstarter campaign for our production of what to send up when it goes down just by Alicia Harris um directed by Whitney White and we raised a little over 25k in a little over 25 days but you know with the hashtag 25k and 25 days sounds great so um that's what we went with and it raised about 20% of our production budget I think um but also was a really great sort of uh platform in in way for us to continue getting continued support to raise the rest of the budget um for the show and to um and huge huge huge props to Jessica who just like encouraged just in those dark days trying to get the campaign off the ground Eric do you want to talk a little bit about the movement and yeah yeah um so the movement theater companies were committed to supporting artists of color and creating a social artistic movement through the works that we do so we're really looking at the intersection of social justice and art and creating opportunities for bold new voices to be out there and within the context of crowdfunding one of the big things that we uh discovered or took advantage of is that content is definitely so important just being able to create various pictures videos as much as you can to keep people engaged was really helpful for us and it also gave us an opportunity to showcase the different sides of ourselves as a organization and as a community of artists um so that's one thing that I know you mentioned something that we could share I think that's a huge thing that was really helpful for our process yeah um yeah so I guess to start off keeping it simple I'd say let's talk about what is crowdfunding what does it mean to you and what can it mean for an artist or producer and or producer I might just jump in quickly to give a very straightforward from within description and then I'm very excited to hear from all of you artists but I think crowdfunding to to me and I'd say to ask a better Kickstarter is about relationships it is about fundraising yes and I think that's what we lean on currently when we think about crowdfunding as an opportunity but it's about sharing what you're working on and engaging with the community when you're looking at even just calling it crowdfunding there's a crowd there there's a community so it's all of that it's funding it's promotion it's storytelling it's engagement I'd offer that up to get us started I think it's basically asking your friends for money that's really kind of what it is and pretty much bothering them until you get as much as you can to to produce your project I do think when we're talking about crowdfunding in theater we're aiming at all donations or support to go towards our projects and not necessarily towards you know taking a vacation or you know paying for a trip here or there it's usually goes directly back into the project which means the money I'm receiving is actually going back out to the people in my project so that's also a crowd right there of folks that that we are sourcing and resourcing because the money comes in from our friends it actually goes to other friends I actually like that I feel like I love paying artists it's I'd love to pay them more it's not always easy to pay them more but certainly the the idea of crowdfunding is being as like kind of throwing out to me it means like throwing out opportunities for your friends to support the work that you do financially to possibly actually support them at the same time and I do agree with what the our family over at movement said about providing a lot of content so people know what it is that they're supporting and how it evolves over a certain amount of time I know Kickstarter has a determined end when you have to finish the request or the project funding project in order to qualify for it but I did hear several people say they work on different platforms and I think that that's also really important too is to think about you know how many how many different communities can we ask to get involved in our projects um at the same time just so we can reach our goals so yeah that's all I'm gonna say yeah it was during our campaign an artist and friend of our Stacia she mentioned she posted online that she gave us like I don't know $20 or whatever and the whole concept of actually we're all just like passing around the same $25 you know it's like she gave us $25 and then it's like great like here's my $25 and she had a campaign you know and we're like okay gonna pass that $20 right back to you and it is it's this whole it's this whole cycle of like more than just like money and funding which you know Jessica was what you mentioned too is that it's also just about like a sharing of resources how can we really start to think about you know crowdfunding beyond just money too right it's like we need space we need materials and how can we just continue this new sort of ecology to support the arts and the work that we want to create in the communities and artists that we want to serve yeah um to that that was a really beautiful way of thinking about crowdfunding as like a giving circle um because that's sort of like the folks that participate in crowdfunding are definitely the folks that are you know giving and receiving in in like cyclical ways to me crowdfunding is about giving our communities an opportunity to participate at every level and treating all the levels as like very important contributions whether that's like you know time time and and labor or one dollar to ten thousand dollars for me when I think about our musical particularly interstate um that is on sort of like a typical musical trajectory I think about crowdfunding as a way to subvert commercial theater because most folks are not able to to participate in commercial theater investments and so for people to be a part of a project that at every single level is is very important to us because our musical is about queer folks and trans folks and people of color and we are not typically the ones who are investing in Broadway but we are investing in each other's each other's like culture thanks all um next question which is kind of related I feel like we've kind of touched on moments of this but why did you start crowdfunding and why should one crowdfund okay I think the biggest thing is it is a wonderful platform especially uh for the ones that are familiar now that people when you hear Kickstarter when you hear Indiegogo it's kind of automatic and there's a certain amount of trust associated with it so I think that's helpful um but in addition to that it is you know the age of social media it's just so easy for someone to share for someone to get a shout out there's so many ways that one action can reverberate so that other folks know oh this thing is going on so crowdfunding really helps in that way and I think especially for marginalized communities it's an opportunity for us to like I believe Kit said operate outside of the systems that have been established that can keep us out to be quite honest and I think with social media platforms and with more of us putting our voices out there it is an opportunity to rally a community that exists and some of whom may be very familiar with donating in the process of donating whether it's to theater or film and some who may not be familiar with that and that is a huge thing is getting people who watch the video or see the photo and are like this is interesting but they have never been to your theater company or they've never seen any of your work but they suddenly become engaged in a different way because the crowdfunding allows for you to meet people in different ways yeah and I think also it's just like a part of the funding pie right we raised 20 a little over 25 grand on Kickstarter but also like separately had to raise significant funds through grants and through other you know building other individual donations and in relationships and things like that and it's all about like what are these different pies for the different audiences that we're trying to reach in order to garner support for the production and to like ultimately you know get money right like that's that's why like we all turned to it right is needing the funding and the resources to make the work happen yeah anyone else want to speak to this idea this idea of you know should people of color theater artists crowdfunded why I want to speak to the practicality of crowdfunding on a pre-existing platform so when we when we did our musical this past summer we we honestly didn't know if we were going to do a Kickstarter because we could have just kept crowdfunding like the way we were doing it by emailing all our friends and family and soliciting like donations and individual contributions but somebody has done all the work already like creating a place for you to put your project up and then click through and deliver the product and and like make it really really easy to to donate and I I would say like just logistically like it as like folks of color who are already like doing too many things to make our art within the system like let somebody do the work for you sometimes is like the way we just like why we decided to to do part of our fundraising through Kickstarter it also gave us visibility and access to people that wouldn't have found out about our project because by the time you know we we will have exhausted all the folks that we know but all of those folks know a lot more people and so having Kickstarter and drip gave the folks who had already given to our campaign through private methods a public interface to to continue to to let other folks know about it good problem yeah I mean I might add to that I think the the transparency around the goal and how many backers becomes a really good way to help incentivize people to give because with individual fundraising you're sending out emails it's great people engage but when folks see that you are $30 away from your goal like that instinct to chip in becomes different and to become part of a movement so I think there's definitely that aspect to it and for better or worse on some platforms like Kickstarter where there's an all or nothing involved there is that countdown that I think does drive people to be like right I've got two days left I'm chipping in now or never which the never part doesn't really happen I find usually they circle back to you in one way or another either on a different platform or with a check they they will find a way to support you but I think that's really helpful with it and maybe one of the reasons why within individual fundraising is one that's it it's a great opportunity yeah that's that's always frightening for me all or nothing oh my god what if I don't get it all that time and effort I put into asking all my friends and I was a thousand dollars short and now my 10 grand is gone that's my biggest criticism of Kickstarter it was that I I felt like that's a lot of work to put in to not be rewarded directly however I don't know many people that don't get it so I feel like you guys do a good job of supporting folks to make their their goals um I I want to just talk a little bit about why I like patreon um and how I came to it first of all um it's really difficult for uh theater artists of color to even get inside a theater um particularly because uh we usually represent a a community that's not even in the theater in the first place so for artists to get their work on stage is already a triple kind of um barrier uh we're not rich we don't have a tradition of of uh proscenium style classic theater in our you know no one my mom and dad didn't take me to no theater shop um so just our exposure is so so limited already and then when we get into the theater the story's not even about us so um it's hard for us to kind of get connected to to theater you've got to really be a motivated person like I got stuff to say and I got to get it up there um because there's going to be a plenty of forces that don't want you to get up there and money's one of them but access is the other um just getting on stage costs money to rent a theater um and I'm and I'm coming at this from an independent um theater producers uh perspective although I've got almost 20 years of non-profit art so I know how to write grants I know how to develop budgets and I know how to create outcomes and all that stuff that's definitely helpful um but patreon was came to me through through working with my life coach so I have a life coach she she helps me basically organize my um my life and my schedule and I told her look um this project I'm working on is going to be you know evolving over a couple of years and we have to travel and half the the people are on in New York and half are in San Francisco um I can't wait a whole year for a grant money to come through I need money now um and you know when you write a grant for you know let's say $50,000 not only is it hard to to get it but you have to wait a long time um for the for the check to come in the meantime what are you supposed to be doing um and as as an artist I have to not only write the work um but I also got to raise the money patreon was cool because patreon gives you money monthly um and and if you're if you need access to funds right away um then it can be supportive of that it's designed to give people updates on your work monthly so for instance I don't know that it was designed for theater artists I got to be honest it's more I think it was designed for like cartoonists musicians to say I'm going to release this this um or filmmakers I'm going to release this part so you can see what we're working on um I have to document all my work in in theater in order to let people know what I'm doing so it's extra work I got to say you know you want to maintain a a crowdsourcing thing it's going to be extra work but it's your work and you have control of it it's freedom it's independence um from a lot of the companies and the 501c3s um who hold up your money or who hold up your opportunities to to pursue to produce and and and create so I do think that there is freedom in it um there's independence in it and there's resistance in it and um I don't know because because money is such a big deal in creating theater and theater is expensive theater is expensive it's hard to do it all by yourself um so you have to pay people to help you so you're gonna have to find the money for it um and so patreon was was was perfect for me uh to to to handle expenses um that weren't huge like if I needed to buy a ticket somewhere real quick if I needed to pay an artist to come in for rehearsal for a week um there's possibilities of of of having that money available right away um so for what I'm doing it fits my purpose I don't know if everybody uh it would fit their their their purpose on how they develop work I think funding is also related to how you develop how you develop work what's your strategy um what are your deadlines and and how are you going to meet the expenses and just a question kit and paul because paul you use patreon and kit you said that you use drip which are and and so just like how much money do you all end up raising sort of like monthly through both of those platforms just in terms of like this idea of keeping an ongoing thing going and and having a platform for that we just we just started using drip and drip was our follow-up campaign to the Kickstarter so drip is Kickstarter's monthly product um and I would say there's like a there's like a trial period and jessica like help correct me if I'm wrong and you are here but there's like a trial period in which you can incentivize your early um backers and you can make like a special level that's like a founding member level um we we currently raise about 200 dollars a month on drip uh but we we haven't really done a huge push for it yet um and we haven't had a lot of experience working with it but I think you know we want to to keep using it so that our folks can subscribe to any monthly updates that we have I probably raised between five and six hundred dollars a month um and in my campaign I put in it that I was going to run it until May until the premiere um I don't know if I'll continue I probably will um but the the thing about it is that you're you're constantly you know looking for people to to support it um but I've been really fortunate I feel like just having five or six hundred dollars more a month that goes directly to the project there's all kinds of of things that you can you can do with that and I only have 20 or 25 uh you know patrons um if I had a couple of other people working with me and this is all me I do it by myself all of it by myself nobody's helping me with this um if I had three or four people you know pushing a Patreon campaign you could get thousands a month yeah so it sounds like we're talking about these like different platforms different um opportunities different that kind of match with what what it is that you're working on so for example if you are yes developing a piece throughout you know months maybe a recurring platform is something that is more beneficial for you but if you're you know working on a one-time production crowdfunding maybe that's the best thing you can do one month or campaign in 25 days or you set a time limit there um but yeah any we want to talk more about these differences of these different kinds of platforms recurring and one-time kind of donation and then also that difference between Kickstarter and other platforms where it's all or nothing um and perhaps as well starting to talk about what has worked well in those different experiences for you and your experience crowdfunding um yeah anyone want to I want to just jump in and follow up um a little bit in uh in terms of talking about our monthly subscribers um to further answer your question DiDra because we don't have any ongoing work like we had a musical and it'll premiere somewhere in the future like in 2020 or 2020 you know it's it's a musical so you know how it goes um but our folks from the Kickstarter who want wanted to keep contributing or wanted to make maybe like a larger contribution but then their time ran out I think those are the folks that are our drip subscribers and there are monthly like contributors even though we don't have anything going on and I think that's really useful for us because like you know we will need that someday and we're really transparent about what we're going to do you know like on the horizon there'll be an album like on the horizon we may need to fly in a you know a TGNC identified actor and enhance the production from where like you know those things are coming um and our subscribers sort of like know like I feel like they're just like in good faith like part of our membership which is I think like a really beautiful thing um to speak a little bit to your question as well Viviana. If I could add a question onto that because I think the the work that goes into communicating with your audience on the regular is one thing leading up to a show in between shows but when it comes to a monthly subscription um Kit and Paul have you found yourselves having to create additional content beyond what you would normally do is it taking up more time just curious um I think I've learned a lot particularly by by doing um a crowdfunding project like Patreon um I always get caught up in in the rewards you give people like you know what should I give folks to get them to donate like the work I'm doing isn't already a gift but um you know there's the whole idea of what you know what should you give the rewards and I was giving people Cuban rum and and and uh and cigars but now I ran out so I have to find new um new things to give them and plus I got to get to Cuba every time so that's hard uh but those things those things uh stick in my head you know like what should I offer people um and then you know um I was reading uh uh Alexandria Acosta our congress lady reading what she was saying is like you know tell people straight up what you want to do and tell them you know tell them straight what it is that you're doing and sometimes that can work too you don't always have to offer like straight up rewards um so a lot of time my thinking is how do I get new people on board right um but I'm also thinking what can I tell people straight about this project that is honest about you know not only why it's important but why I'm doing it what does it relate to um in my experience or in the world uh so then whatever I I decide that I want that message to be then I usually look for something that matches that whether it's a photo whether it's an excerpt from the piece um whether it's a video um so I am taking a lot more video content now than I I think ever have in the past um luckily I hired a videographer to document everything that we do um so and I didn't think about oh we need that for Patreon I did that because we were traveling all over Cuba to research and I wanted that I wanted the footage and it was dope um and then that that happened to be able to be really useful for saying hey look this is what it looks like what we're doing so I do I do think that there is a um an investment on on documentation on technology uh on how to use like Patreon on my phone um and you know just to understand it more uh so but I think everybody's got to be able to do that nowadays like if you got to be adept with video and with technology um and mobile technology and quick technology um but it does serve serve to to help uh raise funds if you're thinking about direct message and being honest with what you want people to to know about your project um we're not that great at creating content to just to be really honest with you like once a month if Melissa and I are doing a residency somewhere we'll like share a clip of a new song or we'll like just write some text along with like a photo of us like it's not even of like anything more exciting than what they already know um but but I I feel like most of the people who are our subs like contributors um are not looking for a whole lot of rewards um but I think they do want the content they just want to know like we're okay um but I think most of the people that are in our like giving community are sort of on the same value wavelengths as the project like we're not um oriented towards like producing or end product or you know valuing people and are only when there's something to show um and and that like people's like our our spirits and our livelihood are as important as as what you see on the stage um and maybe for us like putting a little trust in that is is really helpful as well in trusting in our community to be on that same same page um Paul when you when you're talking about which platforms we're using and you're talking about Kickstarter and it being all or nothing and that like fear that fear is so real it is so real I mean in like Jessica will tell you we even have like people who support her at Kickstarter who bought like like week number two and in week number two they're like I don't know if y'all are gonna make it or like there is no choice there's no choice but to make it you know um and it's funny because we've done crowdfunding before like you know crowdfunding on online platform we did an indiegogo campaign back in 2014 and we weren't successful with it and fell pretty short of our goal and we've never done a crowdfunding campaign that was this large and I really think that you know really going in and asking for part a big chunk of like what we need are really just a part of what we need by making a big ask like really inspired our community and then also that fear right like really pushed us to be like you know Eric and I would literally just like get on the phone at least once or twice a day and be like great who are we reaching out to today what are you doing later like can we be hanging out and like post some ridiculous videos um one of the big things because you mentioned Paulie mentioned Cuban rum so I had some rum from Cuba and uh and so we threw one of the great things about just having 30 days or having a set amount of time was we had to be as creative as possible um so when you talk about rewards like one of our rewards was a playlist you know what I mean so we had to be uh creative about what is feasible and not too costly um but within that to incentivize giving we threw a free what it was free a free party it was a 90s themed rooftop party it was free um and I walked around with a bottle of Cuban rum and to get a shot of rum you had to donate um so it was a lot of fun we had a DJ there and lots of people showed up some people who didn't even know about the campaign they just heard about the 90s rooftop party they showed up in the 90s gear we had a great time and this rum was a hit and then people gave more than you know they would have anticipated to get for a shot just because we were telling folks about our campaign and the mission of the company and the show so we got we had to be really creative within that 30 days because it was all or nothing yeah yeah we did a instead of a we did a like Facebook liveathon um you know like taking the idea of a phoneathon where you're like sitting on the phone and people and you watch it and and people are calling people and donating and we did it via Facebook live one time we did it once where it was just the two of us at like nine o'clock at night um you know and raised like what then every race like close to 300 dollars so then we did it again and we invited some artists to come and just really started to like that pressure of being like okay well if we don't get this 25 grand like we're not getting any of it just really pushed us to think really creatively and to think about different ways to reach our audience our community and people beyond that as well and how can we use it to continue telling the story about the movement theater company to tell the story about what to send up and all of the artists that we were working with um and just yeah yeah um just to say it was such a joy watching that happen like because it was it was seeing the strategy that you had to come up with and I think both in advance of the campaign but then in the like day to day of it but seeing how it was both here's what we're trying to do matched with the goals that you would set for yourself because early on and even like we want to take this space yes we are gathering energy gathering money around the show but we want to show people who we are as a company like we want to shout out all of the work that we're doing our values and that carried through in such a strong way I think in everything that was going on and the way that you led on social media um all of it yeah how many how many shots did you get did you sell how many how many did they I got like look I could show you my bottles right now you're on mute I can't hear you like you know we can do an exchange this is gonna you know did you do the whole bottle like every one you wouldn't do the whole bottle yeah well that's a that's a great idea it was really it was it was Eric's idea and you're like Eric I don't know like this seems like it's too far but like people really got into it and then people are like oh how much do I have to donate so that like all six of us can do shots and they're like oh no no Deidre you're doing it with us like I'm donating for you too you know and it really became you know that whole vibe like when you're at the barn at somebody's birthday except it was like going towards the movement you know and so it was we saw a lot of shots and I walked around I love that he is so creative I had a sign on my back that was taped to my back that was like donations and I think a great thing that Jessica mentioned about our campaigns it really leads into our personalities as well as the work because one thing that we're very clear on as a our faces are part of the movement theater company we can't separate that from the work is really important but people see us and get to know us and so our personalities in letting that shine through in the midst of the themes of the work was really important so that people saw us as fun as as as artists as creatives as funny quirky determined you know all the different things that are part of our personalities as well as we have this show that we want to do yeah and when you know Viviani mentioned in our call yesterday and probably think you brought this up to actually all of us have kind of brought this up this idea of like crowdfunding is liberation right and you know using Kickstarter and using this campaign to also be to like take up that space of like yes I can be a like fierce producer but I can also like party and have shots on the weekend and like the work will you know the work still gets done we can take up this space we can show them any facets of who we are we're not always just like struggling and like in the fight you know sometimes we're just like out on a Saturday and at like the African-American day parade you know um all of those things and also being a platform to do that too yeah this idea of is crowdfunding an opportunity for liberation for historically marginalized communities and liberation yeah liberation from you know these predominantly white organizations who aren't letting us through their doors liberation from being able to you know have community come together and fundraise this way and different kinds of ideas of what that can mean um what you know liberation can mean many things I'm interested in this question though any other thoughts on that and you know can crowdfunding offer opportunities for liberation for people of historically marginalized communities I think we talked about this Viviana uh about just kind of there's a lot of different levels of of liberation I think that crowdfunding um can give you access to um one is you don't have to wait for a third party to give you your money um often as an artist when you you propose a project to a theater um they often receive the money on behalf of the project and then distribute it for you for for people it goes into their it goes into their funds their their account and then it goes through their bureaucracy on you know the timing of the release of money how much um all those things are around uh just kind of nonprofit admin and sometimes you know that money can be caught up in other expenses that are not related to your work and sometimes the artist can suffer because of that either delayed funding delayed pay um a lot of a lot of nonprofits use funds to cover for other expenses um by balancing you know well we're going to get this money um to pay this this debt and then we're going to have to use your money to pay that but we'll we'll get another grant to pay you that's just some some kind of you know strange financial um nonprofit kind of I don't know what you call that where you you know anyway um I felt liberate I feel liberated when when I get money directly to me and I don't have to wait for a 501c3 to cut me a check um so I look for more opportunities to get money directly in the hands of artists whether that is um you know grants that fund art artists directly and not through the 501c3 um or the crowdfunding is perfect because it goes right to you um so I I feel like that is is something to to consider to to offer people out there who are thinking about you know um is it worth my investment by doing a crowdfunding thing well think about you know the the the award of a grant in which you don't see the funds for six to eight months or even longer um maybe a year so that that is a type of of liberation let's get started right now I don't have to wait I think I might add on to that too that I think the the opportunity to tell your story in your own way um especially if you're working in a space where you're being presented or produced there becomes a marketing language around what you're doing you get put into a certain box but here's a chance to say why something is important why your patch about what you're working on the inspiration for it your values all all the like recognition that you want to put into the work you can take up that space on the project page you can do that in your social media and your email campaign um and I think there's something to that like you get to determine how you're shaping the show which is great I just want to offer that I think there is liberation in um the donor pool being diversified so being able to see that there were you know people of various economic statuses uh background you know ethnicities who poured into the project whereas I think when we think of arts funding there is a very stereotypical either white male white female person who's giving the most um and or giving most often and so it's wonderful that you know a 22 year old trans person who is an artist can give the $15 that they have and can feel as uh as much of a contributor to the arts as the person who may look completely different being a completely different socioeconomic status they can both contribute and they both can feel like they are a part of the movement the other company and I think that's uh that's a form of liberation because within the this traditional forms of uh raising money this person has the power and all of the power uh all too often so I think crowdfunding allows us to diversify the the donor pool and that is liberation liberating yeah that's all great I think love is liberating too I think love is definitely liberating and when you see your friends donating to your project I really get like a feeling of love like wow my my friends are putting their money into my project they're not a big funder they're not a foundation you know they're not a corporation these are somebody's coffee money or somebody's gas money um and you know just today I got a new I got a new funder a new donor I'm sorry and you know she's another theater artist just like me um and that's a lot of my pool actually is other artists who are just like hey you know I like what you're doing um here it is also I think you're right absolutely right um about what you said about what what do donors look like when I first set out for this um Patreon campaign I wanted to see how many of my donors would actually respond to um kind of like an ethnic based racial based identity based project would I be able to to recruit Latino donors um would I be able to recruit black folks to to get involved in an Afro Latino idea and my biggest donor is is an African American woman um and to me that's that's awesome and she's she doesn't just help me with funding she like gives me other people I could talk to for money um and I know her but I also feel like when I when I get the response from people it's like wow I people care they they want to see you do something well and you feel this this idea like yeah people do do love what I'm doing then I feel super love you know and I just want to tell everybody this person's so amazing this gave me $20 I always love that yeah I mean when we really went and broke it down we got I think it was 363 donors um and when you do the math that means that the average donation is actually in the like $25 range you know and so to really go and think about that and we you know at the movement we do various donor campaigns and one campaign we have this $10 makes moves and just to see how that is mirrored even in our Kickstarter campaign about like and those smaller donations in all honesty often met like so much us because you know we knew that that was somebody's coffee money we knew that they were like well like not going out this week I'm like giving it to you and it was like it really was it was huge yeah I want to speak about the sorry the the idea of the future of crowdfunding in this way because I think we're also talking about all of our crowdfunding campaigns that we're speaking about are only one piece of a larger budget right I think I think for the most part there's you know other forms other donors or the grants that are happening besides just the crowdfunding portion and so in terms of thinking about the future of crowdfunding you know what needs to happen in order for us to be able to stay to be fully only dependent on crowdfunding to have full liberation in that sense does that make sense is that something anyone can speak to what what is the future of crowdfunding in that way did you see someone said can we use cryptocurrency I do I do think like the future of crowdfunding would be about the future of us figuring out how to mutually benefit each other through these kinds of network based funding mechanisms whether they're online or other other means of doing it I got to think a little bit more about that but how do we bring more people into supporting work how do you diversify the the fundraising methods how do you sustain fundraising efforts how do you continue to recruit new people into your circle yeah I mean those are good questions what the what the future is and how do how how do we get people involved who don't have money I was thinking the same thing along the lines of the last statement you said Paul that like the future of crowdfunding might include non-financial contributions and maybe like a like a giving circle component like an accountability portion or maybe like a pool like a you know you give to like one kind of portfolio and it has like a bunch of different kinds of work that are all linked to each other how how do we just connect like the different campaigns that are happening so that we're all informing each other's work yeah and I think also another thing that I just want to bring into the space too is that I think as communities of color and you know marginalized folks in general like crowdfunding while it may not have been on like Kickstarter Indiegogo or what have you I think it's actually always been like very much a part of how we've been able to survive you know I mean from like people having rent parties back in like you know the 70s and the 80s where it's like that's actually just been part of like our our ethos right from and from financial financial stuff but also from you know uh non non-financial gifts too about like oh okay well like I've got you know I've got all the all this paper like you can have this papers that you can print things in this sort of bartering system this which has just been the the only way for us to to make work into into live and to exist so I think just want to call that out into the space as well that it's just it's been part of one of our tools to survive yeah it's part of our decolonization Jessica please don't okay I think I really appreciate what I think several of you brought up now that if there's a way for crowdfunding to incorporate the non-financial how do you make that ask in conjunction with it because there's whatever base financial reality you have but if somebody can offer you the space if they have the props that you need how do you turn that moment into like here's my vision here are the things that I'm looking for and letting it be that instead of just the financial value of each of those items like that to me is really exciting because we're still I think in the midst of confronting in crowdfunding that we have a small but mighty audience that's supporting theater and if we were to look at just being about fundraising the entire budget of a production that to me is a different kind of challenge and relates to the the ways that we undervalue theater in our culture at large but your vision is one that I think is a pretty exciting one and one that I don't know like if we can go running with that holy shit yeah well because I think we've been talking about how crowdfunding liberates us from these larger organizations the 501c3s both grant and theater organizations and liberating our narrative so that we can have our own you know voice in how we want to talk about our projects and then also liberating us eventually it seems from the actual monetary the dollar as we all work with and how and that is also part of the chains of colonization to me and of you know white supremacy and all the systems of marginalization so if we're able to even remove the actual currency the middle man there middle person mad I mean of course it's the man of course yeah but um but you know and that's that's the potential future that we're talking about and seeing and envisioning so yeah we have 30 minutes left and I want to take time to go to some questions we've been getting from the virtual audience which one is interesting well it's going back to this idea of money and working with money but there's actually two questions that are kind of similar I'll say them both and then you can speak to parts of them so is there any concern or ways to avoid exhausting grassroots donors with campaigns and connected to that I think is how do we get around the feeling that we are constantly shaking down our own communities that we know have very limited resources over and over again I think we kind of touched on parts of this but any thoughts for those questions I think part of it is how do you approach it not just as an ask how do you approach it as an invitation like come into this world that I'm making be part of what is going on like what you saw with the movement theater companies campaign where it's like kind of like get caught up in the joy of what we are doing I think that it's a total thing that is a little different from how some folks will traditionally go after their communities to make an ask yeah I think that that's important absolutely as well as keeping in communication if you go to make an ask you know you're running a campaign it ends you make an ask come to see the show and then you go quiet until the next time you need to make an ask or you need them to buy another ticket it's hard so how do you look at your community more holistically how do you kind of Paul and Kit where you were talking about like here I am working on this song here I am in this moment so that they're brought along on your journey as an artist and they get to more organically participate I think those kind of things help with the exhaustion just because it's not about an ask it's about a relationship and tending to that at that point yeah I think also like what we've all been saying right about like passing around the same 20-25 dollars too and really embracing this giving circle you know idea and mentality I think one of the things that we really try to do with the movement is make sure that we're going out and we're supporting our artists we're supporting the artists that gave to the campaign whether it's giving to their campaign whether it's including their shows and our upcoming e-blast going to their shows and just showing up and and and you know continuing that relationship that was built and also you know paying it forward and paying it back and and all of those things and I'll offer that yeah it's at the at the courts about relationships so I think one of the things that we were successful at was making sure that the campaign wasn't just tied to the show so that the next time if we do have to crowdfund again people will know they're giving to us whether that means us the personalities and the people behind it or us the theater company but uh and they will be excited because they'll remember us from last time versus if it seems and it all will depend on your organization and the project but if it just seems solely about the project it can become okay well you all did it you know you did that project so you would still need to convince people to give to you all but I think when you can focus on the who that's behind the project it can really help so that uh your audience or your potential donors begin to understand a relationship that if you have to ask again they are still invested in that relationship I also think about trusting in both one the abundance in our communities and then to the patience in our communities when I follow a campaign I want to hear from them and I want an opportunity to support them in their second second rounds of crowdfunding or giving I like I always want to know when I'm attached to something and so sort of like trusting in in the feeling that like people really really actually want to know what's up with you or your project or what's even in your sphere like Eric and Deja were saying who who are you friends with that are doing great work as well who's out there I think for Interstate we also tried to go to all the other shows in the New York musical festival we tried to show up and and and support other campaigns and see see what people are doing because I feel like that also makes like your own work stronger if your work is in dialogue with your community's work one of the things that was cool about the patreon campaign was it was relatively new when I started and so one of my one of my funders who was already funding the project actually asked me that they would give me a matching grant if I let them talk to my donors it was pretty cool so I had to actually email every one of the people who support my patreon campaign and be like look you know this funder wants to talk to you about you know why you're helping me and everybody did it they were and I was like and if you and if you guys all talk to them I get five thousand dollars so it's like you're doubling your donation just by setting up an appointment that was a little bit of work you know I had to reach out to everybody individually and say um they're going to talk to you and they're like what are they gonna ask me paul are they gonna ask me about my bank account I'm no no they're gonna ask you why are you why are you supporting me and why do you why did you choose to do it on patreon and I got like a total commitment from everyone to to and I asked them like and then tell me what they asked you so people wrote me back they're like well they just wanted to know why I chose to support you um and why I was doing it online and and you know the different fears or or advantages that they had um and and I do remember you know some people some people are still reluctant to put their their credit card on online you know um and and I know that other folks also are just like so down for you that no matter what you put out they're gonna roll out whatever they have for you and and so the the responses to to the um the the interviews that they had to do with the funder were all super positive and just kind of reinforced the kind of like um it reinforced the value of the work I was putting out it reinforced the friendships that we had made um and it showed I think it showed the funders that you know um my group of donors were were unique um you know I think demographically but also that they really cared um they they wanted to be part of that process of um what what happens with this project and and I do I do think that's something to to really um I guess highlight about the relationships that you do create based on the crowdfunding and and they're not like you know always the same type of relationship everybody has a different relationship with you as a donor but what I do find is that it it gives um an opportunity to to be involved in something um and feel like you're connected uh in the development of a piece and I loved writing everybody's name who donated on my program you know I put everybody all 26 people I put their name in the program I said these people you know gave individual money for it and I felt really good about that just to say hey look you're in the program I loved it uh we have another question from an independent artist what should we know as freelancers regarding our tax liability for this taxable income getting to some nitty gritty here but important information patreon sends you um patreon gave me a 10.99 so they sent me um all the money that I had uh received and said you know this is how much you're getting um you you have to turn in as a 10.99 so yeah you got to pay taxes on the money bottom line just like any contract uh just in terms of getting prepared for that to anticipate it um so maybe that means like crowdfunding for it um you know some people crowdfund for the fees for for their capital campaigns they're for the plat to use the platform um I think budgeting and anticipating that you're going to pay um I think we budgeted like 20 percent or something in there for for any sort of tax related things and then um just another really practical um insight is to get an accountant and not try to do it yourself yeah I think and we're in a little different situation because we're in or we're incorporated but I just know also especially with all of the tax laws that are changing for independent artists and how you can write off expenses and things like that it's changed a whole lot so kids advice of getting an accountant is super super super important because it's really changed what you can write off and how much you can write off as expenses in that it's like completely different so definitely get an accountant and whether you get an accountant or you're working on your own um I know for Kickstarter if you go to kickstarter.com slash taxes we're not going to give you like all the ins and outs but we'll give you as much information as we can responsibly to tell you like these are the different thresholds but if you're working with somebody who's not as familiar with the platform and the fees it'll also as they're working on your taxes give them a little bit of a background and an understanding of how it works awesome we have another question from Brandon C Smith on Twitter what advice would you give before you launch your campaigns also can you talk about being creative about engaging to donate outside of crowdfunding all right let's we'll go for it um so in terms of before launching I think it's really important to uh have content set up so whether that's uh another certain amount of videos at least one perhaps two three four um but as many videos as you can uh photos with uh ideally text in the photos so text that says please give give today the first 48 hours are really important um having photos that communicate the message without someone having to read the caption was really effective for us um and I think having some donors set up so that as soon as you launch you have some money in there because someone who launches and did not tell anyone and no one was anticipating it if you launch on a Tuesday and Wednesday that shows up on someone's feed and it still says zero dollars it looks like you spent a day making no money and that doesn't look good because people want to give to someone who's winning already so it's really important to you before you launch the campaign set up some friends family or whoever to give within the first 48 hours because those first 40 hours are crucial to make people look at the campaign and say wow they they built some momentum let me keep that momentum going as opposed to wow they need somebody to give you know so I think all of those content and building up some donors ahead of time are really important yeah and another another bit of advice that jesse gave us too was really like don't be too precious with the content either you know we're you know a lot of it it's it's taking place on social media that's so immediate that's so fast and I think once we really like relinquish some of that pressure for it to be like oh so perfect there's so many like collage apps that make it like really easy to just like throw something up there and and like releasing yourself on that too is also really helpful when you're prepping for the campaign and when you're creating content during the campaign yes to so much of that you hit all the like the important points I think I'd add on to that like think about what you want the campaign flow to look like at what point do you want to be at in two weeks you want to be at the 50% just so that you're able to gauge am I going at the speed that I want to go and kind of knowing like in the first week this is how I think I want to approach communication like this is what I want to accomplish on social media to your point like having the content ready for that will take so much stress out and having in addition to people who are going to give have your people who care about you who care about the work also lined up and ready to share because that'll take some of the weight off of you as individuals when you know that you've got 10 people who are ready to go just scream from the rooftops about how amazing you and this work is I'd also add some budgeting is really useful so just like Eric and Deidre said we also did crowdfunding on different platforms from individual contributions to Kickstarter to throwing a couple of parties and all of those things are crowdfunding they just look really different and so setting a goal for each one so you know if your project is the pie you know you're going to do $20,000 in parties $20,000 and Kickstarter and $20,000 in individual contributions and then I think that's kind of what ours look like and then from like giving circle and grant money is really useful to do so that you're you know striving towards all those goals and then tailoring those goals to what you know your folks want to do I mean some projects want to party more than others and I think that's really important to know I would say on creative ways of engaging people to donate outside of crowdfunding is just what are points of collaboration that you could offer you know what or how could folks collaborate with you that don't include donating on the site so for instance you know you need certain things created like oh I need this to be videoed I need photos of this event or you know I'm currently trying to negotiate space right now like I'll offer this amount of free activities in exchange for X amount of hours of rehearsal space um you know it's it I feel like I feel like what kind of effort do you want to to make in creating collaborate collaborations I think ultimately crowdfunding is kind of like a collaboration it's a big collaboration can we measure collaboration outside of how much people put into your project monetarily and what are really cool ways of collaborating where you could be like hey I really appreciate the work that you do in this field and I could use that let's let's figure out a way that you know we we mutually help each other I'll let you take photos of my collaborators you can use them for your stuff I'll use them to promote my stuff and hey we'll credit you on the crowdfunding thing that's just one way it doesn't always have to be financial and I think it's even better when you can find ways to collaborate with people that doesn't necessarily include only money you're going to need the fund you need the money it's it's hard to offer you know space in exchange for plane tickets but um there there's there's times when you can certainly support artists without offering money related to supporting artists what can cis white artists do to help with crowdfunding for artists of color I mean amplify share support I think jumping into whether it is financially or looking at what you as an artist have at your hands that you can provide and share like kind of looking at that and offering that forward and then helping spread the word about it because like become part of that community in the way that you can related to that campaign but I think in that moment like the sharing and looking for yeah an opportunity to help them tell that story is important the projects that the three of us are talking about here by artists of color is like a major accountability counterpoint like no one can say there wasn't an opportunity to support our projects because we put it on a very public facing platform so when I think about how white folks can be in support of of our projects it's to be very tangible about it if you've got funds and you've got money just make a donation if you have power and privilege in certain spaces just use it um and crowd crowdfunding I think gives gives a really clear way to do that yeah I I totally agree I think uh the platform has been created that folks white folks can give and support but also share and also speak to the value of the work I think that was really uh important for us as uh producers of color producing artists of color because there are uh institutions predominantly white institutions that will hire black playwright and or playwright of color and produce their show and that's wonderful but for us to be four producers of color uh producing works by artists of color that was huge and to be shouted out and celebrated by white cisgendered folks was really important in terms of them utilizing their privilege to highlight us so I think speaking to the importance not just giving but also speaking to the importance of the work is really uh something that folks can do yeah I don't have anything to add to that you guys are all on point yes it is now on the record what you can do so I guess we'll do one more two more questions because we have 10 minutes left so let's see for those on the panel that use subscription crowdfunding websites to raise funds on a continual basis how has having that monthly financial support positively affected your overall health and well-being and hashtag work-life balance if at all um it's it's huge it's huge I mean it's got to be like one of the biggest pulling attractive points for a patreon is that you're going to get money every month um but you only get as much as you actually raise so if you're only pulling ten dollars a month I don't know if that's a oh oh you know a great balance um I quit my full-time job to focus more on the live um the the health balance because I was trying to be an artist and a non-profit um administrator and it was just unhealthy um so I think one of the things you end up doing when you have more time is figuring out how do I you know fill in the gaps of the funds that I don't have anymore um the cool thing about about doing patreon is that it is you're telling a story your story and you're getting paid for it online um and you can have a lot of fun with it it's already a promotional platform for your work right there so if you don't have money money to keep up a website you can actually generate this that is a platform for you to promote your work online and make money at the same time there's a pay button right there boom um and and you know if I gave it if I gave patreon maybe 10 hours a week I could probably get a lot more money on it but I don't I have to also create work rehearse work fundraise on grant proposals teach and take care of my children so it's like you know there's only so much time you can spend asking people for money thank god the people might hate me um but I I do think like uh the the benefit is um having fun with it uh seeing what you can put on there that actually gets people's um attraction so it is it is also really nice to get money in your bank account every month I can't say that any more emphatically than that it's nice yeah I'd echo that there's um the stability of knowing that there's a little bit of income every month is really great um especially because there's there are always unanticipated expenses that pop up you never know when you're going to have to um pay for someone to come in last minute to do something or to uh everyone who here knows what it's like when you need extra set pieces or more money for props and design or um at the very least you always want to pay everyone more every everyone who's working with you especially for folks who have projects with other folks of color or queer and trans folks you know we all want our our directors and stage managers and assistants and folks to get paid more so it's um it's really great to know that there there is a little bit of a wiggle room there awesome yeah so we only have five minutes left on this time together um so I'd also love to ask if there's any other resources that you'd like to share in terms of links or you know places to go to get more information on how to be successful in your crowdfunding um beyond this live stream panel and maybe we can put those links in the comments as well um I'll share that the conversation that I had with the producing artistic leadership team on you know how they accomplish their 25k and 25 days campaign that's available transcribed um on the medium page at advancing arts forward so www.invancingartsforward.com and then you click the medium little icon it'll show up there in the list but yeah any other resources to share with people after beyond this conversation I'm a dude I'll go for a kid you might be able to point people in directions like when they have like specific questions but for for us in in thinking about how to structure our campaigns we just looked at other ones that were doing the same kinds of things we wanted to do um people that were raising the same amounts of money in the same amount of time people that doing the same kind of work um so I think like a great thing to do is just to go and look at at what other folks were doing what other what rewards they were offering how long did it take them to do it how many people subscribed um yeah yeah I think that's an underutilized resource actually because there is a wealth of inspiration that if you even if you're just clicking through like other theater projects in New York or Ohio like you can kind of get a sense of what the community has been up to um I would also again shout out Viviana the piece with movement theater company covers so many of the best practices and how to do it well that that's great um and I would add that we are actually spending the next two months at Kickstarter trying to help performing artists get ready for fall shows um if you go to our homepage right now and click on performance in progress it'll take you to a separate site where you can sign up right now for a crowdfunding bootcamp where for six weeks you will get an email once a week saying here's what you need to do this week the questions you should answer some campaign inspiration words from artists just to kind of walk you through best practices that we know from our end we'll have a webinar we'll have some events in person in New York and London as well but that's a great resource um and year round Kickstarter has a creator handbook and it's footer that covers all all the setup and what to do when you're running your campaign that I think is a great opportunity to just walk through what we know inside here um and to try to help inspire you on your road uh okay so I don't I don't have a link but I have a bunch of words that I think uh content content content I think that's super helpful when you're thinking about uh diversifying the message and also updating people everybody wants to feel like a hero so one of the things that we did was we might have a picture that says you know five days left uh $700 more to go um and so someone could then be inspired oh I've got two I've got five dollars I've got and we would update personally our statuses on Facebook and say hey we're at seven we're 761 dollars away can someone give us 62 dollars to help us get over that $700 hump so personally updating people with how far how close we are to that goal was really important and then the other thing uh there was a question earlier about being creative we knew we had some older folks or just people who needed to get the message in a different way so we would call and say hey if you can write check we will accept the check um then at the party we had people been mo us um and because that was most accessible they weren't ready to like sign up or and do the whole Kickstarter thing but they could been mo one of us immediately and then we found a way to get put that into the campaign so um think being creative and also knowing what your personal skill sets are once you can bring I do musical improv so we use that to incentivize if you donate I'll sing a song I'll make up a song on the spot but also bring your personal talents whether that's writing whether that's performing whatever it is to the campaign to help showcase you and get people more invested in the story of you all success of the project and the organization's success I just think everybody on this panel is just beautiful and you guys I'm so proud of you and all the work that you've done and thank you for bringing us together baby Anna um I appreciate this this opportunity to listen to my peers talk about their work and I appreciate everybody's efforts to push the art forward and to you know bring some justice to our current lives in this world through our art so keep it up everyone Viviana froze Viviana you're frozen right I'm frozen so I'm going to echo Paul's props and gratitude yes thank you all this has really been great and insightful especially because uh we're not that familiar with the continual with with drip and with patreon but it was great to learn about that so thank you all for that as well yeah and I would just echo that it's always whatever we can try to share from within the crowdfunding platforms but hearing the stories of you all who are making incredible work and have put the time and energy and sweat and tears into doing it that's the best so thank you for tuning in today and contributing all of that thank you all right so since Viviana is frozen I just want to say thank you again so much and we'll follow up with some links and