 I'm Henry Louis Gates Jr. I'm thrilled to welcome you to this local event for our newest series, The Black Church. This is our story, this is our song, exploring the 400-year-old history of the Black Church in America. For many, it's their house of worship. For some, it's ground zero for social justice. For others, it's a place of transcended cultural gifts exported to the world, from the soulful voices of preachers and congregants to the sublime sounds of gospel music. I'm honored to have the support of your local station. Thank you for being here today. I'm Lynn Sherman, and I will be your host for this evening. Welcome to Sights, Sound, and Spirit of the Black Church. Please join me in welcoming our guests for this evening's conversation. Pastor Lawson Body currently serves as Associate Director of Worship and Arts at the Shiloh Church, and has been a leader in church ministry for over 25 years. He matriculated through music education programs at Jacksonville University. And he is known for his work as a music and worship pastor, a music director and clinician, and Director and Assistant Director of Choirs. Bishop Charles Eichelberger Sr. is the pastor and founder of Cathedral of Deliverance. At age 15, Bishop Eichelberger was licensed by the Church of God in Christ to preach the gospel. The Northeast Florida Council of Bishops consecrated him to the office of bishops in 2001. And he is the spiritual leader of Cathedral of Deliverance, which he founded in 1984. And last, but certainly not least, Ben Fraser. Ben Fraser is a nationally known Emmy Award-winning broadcast journalist. He was the first African-American to anchor a major news show in Jacksonville, Eyewitness News at noon in 1979. He is a blogger, a podcaster, and an active member of the National Association of Black Journalists. Ben is a passionate and vocal civil rights activist and the founder and president of the nonprofit civil rights organization, the Northside Coalition of Jacksonville. Before we start our conversation, let's watch a clip from hour one of Dr. Louis Herrigates, The Black Church. I will go back home. Well, I believe, I believe, I will go back home. I believe, I believe, I will go back home and be. My mother's family is worshiped in this church for generations. The lessons I learned here, the power of faith, the importance of community, have remained with me and sustained me in the same way The Black Church has sustained the African-American people from the days of slavery to this day. The Black Church was more than just a spiritual home. It was the epic center of Black life. Out of it came our Black businesses, our Black educational institutions. The church gave people a sense of value and of belonging and of worthiness. I don't know how we could have survived as a people without it. We had to have some individual and institutional armor in order to preserve our sanity. Come to say you're inferior. Despite that, you are an equal. From Hush Harbors to suburban mega-churches, it's been a sanctuary in which Black people could reinterpret the Bible in their own image and praise God in their own voices. Like all human institutions, The Black Church and its leaders have their shortcomings. We were very quick to address racism, but very slow to address sexism and abuse. Today we stand at a crossroads. What will be the future of the Black Church? Where's the African-American church in Black Lives Matter? Where's the African-American church with environmental justice in it? I think that the church, particularly when the focus has been threefold, prophetic social justice, holiness, and spiritual empowerment and worship. When those three things are held together, the church has been a powerful force against sin, the sin of racism, the sin of oppression. I've spent my career exploring stories about Black life, but there's one I'm never told. And it might be the most important one of all. It's the remarkable history of the Black Church. Welcome back, audience. We want this to be an interactive experience for everyone. After the conversation with our panelists, we will ask questions from you, from our audience. Feel free to type your questions in the chat at any time. We will do our best to answer all of your questions a little later in the show. The Black Church is and always has been the center of African-American life, a place to worship God, a place to call our own in a too often hostile world, a sanctuary from so many hardships. Over the course of centuries, Black churches served as hush harbors, where slaves could worship in safety, praise houses where their free descendants could gather and shout hallelujah anytime they wanted, rest stops for the weary along the underground railroad, bunkers for the foot soldiers of the civil rights movement. They have been and continue to be community centers, health centers, job finders and justice seekers, places of education and networking, places where children are loved and fed and kept out of harm's way and told that they are beautiful and that they are smart and taught that they matter. That's what happens at church. That's what the Black Church means to me. It is our heartbeat. To start our conversation, I'd like each of you our panelists to respond to this question. What does the Black Church mean to you? How has it impacted your life? And we'll start with Pastor Eichelberger. The Black Church is really my life. I came a part of the totally committed at a young age of 11 years old, and I was taught the things that I didn't know I was really poor and I was almost grown. So the Black Church gave me hope, made me feel that I was somebody, gave me and instilled in me a sense of pride and the spirit of excellence. It taught me how to deal with social injustices and more than anything else, it grounded in me the spirit of faith. And it lasts, and it's 66 years later, I'm still believing the same thing. So without it, I don't know how I would have made it. Thank you for sharing that with us. Mr. Frazier, what does the Black Church mean to you? It means so very much to me. I think that this entire experience is so very rich with the color and the culture and the consciousness of Black America. It is this historical journey, Len, that goes back even before the landing of the first slave ship back in 1619. It is this color, this culture and this consciousness that explains in great detail just why Black Lives Matter. I remember getting ready for Easter Sunday in my new suit, coming from down King's Road, going to Fifth and Davis to St. Stephen's AME Church. My sister in her pigtails, pattern of their shoes and a satin bow on the top of her head and us going to recite our Easter speeches. I remember mine, he arose. I remember it, it's still with me. And then the church choir coming in from the back of the building, thundering, singing the song. We've formed this far by faith, leaning on the Lord. Yes, that is my church experience. And in the words of Bishop Rudolf McKessick, Jr., won't he do it? Thank you, Ben, pass the body. Would you respond to that? What does the Black Church mean to you? Sure, from my experience, Black Church's community. It was community, it was a hub for me to build relationships with persons, meaningful relationships, relationships that have lasted throughout my entire life. So first and foremost, it was community. It was where we gathered not only on Sunday, but we had a Tuesday night teachers' meeting and Wednesday night prayer meeting and Thursday night choir rehearsal and a Saturday, some kind of meeting on Saturday. And after church on Sunday, we met for, I'm gonna tell my age a little bit, we met for BTU, we met for the Baptist Training Union in the evening. And so spent a lot of time with persons, got to know persons from cross generations, older, younger, my peers. And we really fostered and built a sense of community. So first and foremost, it is community, but also for me personally, it was leadership development. The Black Church is where I cut my teeth on being a leader, being given responsibility, responsibility that I could handle that was an indigenous of where I was in my level of maturity. It taught me that, taught me that those lessons to have stayed with me and I believe are contributed solely to who I am today. Thank you very much. It sounds like the church, the Black Church was a foundation, a solid foundation for all three of you. Ben, I'd like to pose this next question to you. Someone said to me once that Jesus and His disciples were somewhat activists. They were standing up for what was right, standing up against the status quo, letting people know that with God, all things are possible. So not many people in our community are in this world really think of Jesus and His disciples in that respect. But does the Black Church have a place in community activism? Most definitely. Let's start off with the quotes from Amos the Prophet. We need to do it until wet, until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream. You see, Black people need deliverance in so many different ways. We need it in the traditional ways against traditional sins of everyday life. We also need deliverance, of course, from the sins of social, racial and economic injustice. We need deliverance from racism. We need racial discrimination and law enforcement to end. What are the churches saying about these things? We need deliverance from indecent housing, or Black preachers preaching about that. What about deliverance from racial oppression and white supremacy? You see, the Black Church must return to its position as a foundation of Black life and to its position as being a driving force in our fight for freedom in America. If we ever needed the Lord then, we need Him now more than ever before. The church must return to its active state in fighting for social justice. So speaking of, thank you, Ben. Speaking of fighting for social justice, Pastor Eichelberger, should the Black Church support the Black Lives Matter movement? As it did the civil rights movement? Of course. I personally feel that to ignore Black Lives Matter is to say we were never part of the civil rights movement. To me, how can you really be a follower of Christ and not care what happens to other people and especially young people? Definitely, yes. We should start making it count individually so it can count toward other people also. Yes. Pastor Body, what are your thoughts on this? Should the Black Church support the Black Lives Matter movement? What does that put us? I do believe that we should. I do believe that as the church, it is our duty, it's our responsibility to always offer in support of anything that we get ourselves behind. I think we ought to offer some kind of biblical or theological worldview. And what I would suggest concerning that is just the image of God reasoning. Yes, Black Lives Matter because Black Lives are made in the image of God. And so, rightfully so, we should support that. We should support anything that aligns itself, theologically, aligns itself biblically, aligns itself with the crowning tenets of our faith. If we believe it, then we should support it. Yes, in the words of William Bauer, he says that silence is no longer an option that we must begin to speak out. So then we can go to church every single Sunday and go to hell for what you don't stand up and speak out for on Monday. It's time for the church to again become a drum major for peace and to push against social, racial and economic injustice. There was a great writer who said that you never mistake motion for action. So the church cannot get so tied up in the motion of going through church and playing church. But instead, it must begin to follow the full service of the people. And that would include strong support for social actions that we must take Monday through Saturday. Thank you very much. It seems like each of you agree that the Black Church should be involved with Black Lives Matter. But what would that look like? If the Black Church gets involved, how do they support that movement? What things do they need to do in order to ensure that support so that the Black Lives Matters members are aware that they are being supported by the Black Church? What happens next? Well, as an activist, I must tell you that we need strong financial support and moral support. What we're saying is that Black pastors must begin to speak out on issues of relevance to their congregants. Many Black youngsters are being killed, not only by law enforcement police officers, but by each other. We must begin to address these issues in the church. Too many quiet pastors. It's a mysterious silence that bugs me and bothers me. We must begin to stand up and speak out. I want to jump in. I think that, especially concerning my generation, I think that the church can offer forums for conversation, very honest conversation concerning the Black Lives Matter movement. I think that what tends to happen is that there's a misunderstanding. There's a misunderstanding of the motivation and there's a misunderstanding of the means by which we display, we demonstrate our activism. And so because of that misunderstanding, then the Black Church is hesitant, is hesitant to get behind it. And I believe that if we are to support it, if we are to get behind the Black Lives Matter movement, I think it starts with very honest conversation so that everyone launches from the same platform. Everyone launches from the same playing field and that the rules of the game are understood across the board so that we can eradicate any kind of misunderstanding that would hinder such a movement, such a powerful movement, such a needed movement. Very good point, very good point. So where do we start? Where do we start, Pastor Body? Where do we begin to bring people together? Are faith leaders or members of the Black Church together to begin that conversation? Where do we begin? I believe that we begin by corralling those who are open just again to that conversation, to the presentation of the conversation, the presentation of the movement by those who are at the forefront of it. Bringing them in, just having, again, just honest dialogue in unthreatening environments. The church itself is an organism, much more than an organization. And so even if it starts outside of the four walls of the edifice, I believe that just the corralling of persons together, the coming together in a non-threatening environment where everyone is equal, where everyone is on the same plane of existence. It starts there, it starts just with the invitation and accepting that invitation and accepting the response to that invitation, accepting the response. I think it's great, wonderful. If it's few, wonderful. As long as there is a response, I think you have to work with what you have. I often say, when people ask me how I'm doing, I'm doing the best I can with what I got. And I believe that if we're going to support a movement, then we've got to do the same thing. Lynn, I was- You said that, but I also, I agree. I spoke a little bit, I'm sorry. Like this, this program right here will lead to honest, open, and straightforward dialogue because there is in fact a critical disconnect between the black church and the black activist movement. Now let's just call it like it is. It's time for us to sit down and talk. And I'm hopeful that this program will inspire and encourage pastors to sit down and talk with members of the progressive movement. Thousands of people have gone out into the streets. We have been upset with racial discrimination and law enforcement, black men being shot down and we've not heard the church stand up and speak out against it. The time is now. This mysterious silence must end. We must sit down and talk with each other. The Bible says, come, let us reason together. Thanks, Ben. Pastor Eichelberger, you were gonna add something? Well, I was gonna say, I agree with what I've heard so far, but I think in addition to that, before we can ever get everybody together, we first of all, well, getting together, I agree with what I've heard. We need to instill in individual people their worth because let's face it, I don't care what anybody says. The civil rights movement wasn't successful simply because we met and formulated opinions. There was also a thing called faith in God. Now faith in God does not eradicate your responsibility. And I think what we're thinking that we can just get out and fight back naturally. So, and we're gonna win the war. It doesn't happen like that, except the Lord build a house we're living in vain and except he keeps the city, they're watching and the way keep the button bang. So there has to be a personal thing for each one of us. So as Mr. Frazier is saying, but in order for us to get this thing done, we all need to come and sit down and reason together. But every one of us needs to have a personal interest in our own selves. And then when we get that, then I can have an interest in you. That's what's missing. We're putting them, I think they're trying to get it done without really doing it God's way. And I don't have hope in that. But I do agree with what I've heard. I think they have the right idea that we can just get us to do it. It's not the white man's job to fix us or nobody else's job is our responsibility. So this takes me to the next question that I wanna pose. And you guys are already beginning to talk about it. We're really, as you think about it, we're in a period that is unlike any other periods that most of us who are alive have ever experienced when it comes to conversations about race and racism and the opportunities to move maybe just one more step or a few more steps towards equality. I would love for you to talk a little about the role of the church or that the role that the church is currently playing around this critical topic right now. We've talked a little bit about what we need to do. Let's take a look at what we are doing because I know that there are some churches who are approaching this conversation. Do you see a need for the black church to engage in conversation about race relations and social justice or is this conversation is something and you've pretty much made this a little bit little clear that it needs to happen inside the church. There are some who believes that it should happen outside the church and there's no place for it inside the church. What are your thoughts on that? Because we are in a pivotable time period here and in Jacksonville where we live, what are your thoughts on that? If I may go first, I would say that I don't understand how any of us as a part of the church can ignore the problems that we have because number one, we try to, if we aren't careful we make everything in the Bible sound so spiritual and so far away from us when it's Jesus really taught about everyday life. And until we as those supposed to be a part of the church get our heads together and understand that we have a responsibility. If indeed we've been born again and free then we ought to be freeing somebody. We ought to be trying to do what's necessary. We need to go where the people are to try to reach the people. And so I don't understand how we can think we can just stay back because the church is not the four walls. We are the church. And until we become activated why would we need power what God promised us if we're not gonna do anything to help? And so we have to take that responsibility. Each one must reach one. And that's the way we keep building the snowball. I agree with that wholeheartedly. I don't think that what we're saying is it's time for the church to change its message. Oh no, we're not saying that at all. But we are saying that the word says that we must be fishers of men. And that simply means that we've got to do a little bit more than feed those fish that are already in the aquarium. Well, I will say this too. That the foundation, I think we have to we have to establish that with the church a foundation in scripture. I think that we have to, if we are a people any leg people or chosen people, I think that we have to use the tools that we are granted. And one of the greatest tools and we've seen it abused over time. We've seen it misused over time. And that is the written word of God. But the written word of God addresses every issue in life that we face. And it calls us, if we open our eyes to see just the ideas that the word of God actually actually addresses and the word of God actually you can interpret certain circumstances through the word of God and justifiably. We're not twisting scripture in order to speak of social justice. We're not twisting scripture to talk about race relations. I mean, Jesus gave the parable of the good Samaritan. That's a race relations approach. That's a race relations idea that's presented to us. And even as it relates to social justice, Jesus goes on to tell us that there's a common grace by which we all live up under. Therefore, if there's a common grace that is divinely enacted on all life, then yes, all life matters. All life should have opportunities because the sun shines on the justice as well as the unjust. God causes it to rain on the righteous as well as the unrighteous. So I believe that we do have an upper hand as the church because we do have written in the blood, we have a script that we can actually walk by. It's very interesting to me that the great commission and the words of the great commission are very clear. It means that we must take this word out to the people. Jesus didn't stay up in the temple. He took the word to the streets and to the people. Thanks. So I wanna shift the conversation just a bit. So my pastor, Charlie McClendon, jokingly says, if all the women left the church today, he would be preaching his last sermon next Sunday and it would be titled, Farewell My Brothers Farewell. The women in the black church make up the majority of its members and it's been this way for a long time. Share with us some ways women have contributed to the black church in the past and what changes do you see in the role of women in present day church? Good question. Can I jump in first and I really want to because my experience in the black church is actually from a single parent home. My mother, I was raised by my mother. I have two older sisters. I am the baby boy. I am our only begotten son in whom she is well pleased. And so much so that my mother decided to begin our cup scout troop. At our church to provide me some kind of outlet as I was coming up. She went on further to lead for years, for decades actually, to lead the youth usherboard just so that I and my sisters and other young people within the church I could have something to do to occupy their time and keep them out of trouble. I saw my mother raise money, sell fish dinners in order to build the church, to help build a new addition to the church, to pay some bills off in the church, to support preachers and support missionaries to do all of that. So I saw firsthand women in the black church be nurturers as the Bible says that they should be to so to fulfill that biblical role of nurturing. I mean, of really being that as well as being industrious. Proverbs 31 talks about an industrious woman. And I saw that in the black church. And that was the impact has been and I think probably will always be just the impact of women in the black church that they do have this nurturing and industrious nature about themselves that they exemplify and act so freely. And yes, I agree with your pastor. If they left today, you know, we may want to kind of consider going back in apologizing. Gentlemen, gentlemen, why don't we just call it like it is? The black church has discriminated against women for literally a couple of hundred years. It was okay for them to sell fish dinners. It was okay for them to sell chicken dinners. Okay, for them to put their tides in the plate. But they couldn't be preachers. They couldn't be ordained as preachers. Who said that? Which book of the Bible is that in? The bottom line is that we took over the dominant role that the white folks were doing and we brought that same discriminatory process into the black church. So the question is, how will the church survive? The church must begin, the black church must begin to adapt. We've got to change. We're not saying stop preaching the word. We're not saying stop saving souls or making disciples. We are saying start calling it like it is. Well, brother Ben, I will say, I agree with you in certain instances that yes, that has been the role that has been the case in some denominations. In my denomination that I came up in in the missionary Baptist church, women were not allowed to preach. They were not allowed to stand in the pulpit to even go near it, not even on a women's day. However, my great grandmother was one of the most spiritual persons that I know and was a founder of a denomination out of LaGrange, Georgia. And so my own personal conviction is a lot different from that because I do see and I may get called on this, but my theology goes along with what was said in the Bible. In Christ, there is no male or female. There is no Jew nor Greek. There is no bond nor free. So I do see that women have had, over time, I have seen my own personal experience while there is the acknowledgement of their mistreatment. There have been promising, promising figures as well as just the ongoing participation of women in the black church in very critical roles and in leadership roles. Pastor Ackaburger, can we hear from you on this topic? Well, I have to say that I do agree with both men and the only thing I want to add is that part of my problem is, I grew up in Church of God in Christ. Of course, like he said, women, some of them can come into pulpit on women day, but we have more problems within our own churches that may be the reason why we can't reach out and help anybody. Because as Mr. Frazier said, we misinterpret scripture, we use stuff to our own advantage. So women have had, I see it like this, the Bible says, right, the vision, make it plain. So he that read it can run. Well, many times the male leaders had the vision and the women ran with it. Had they not taken the vision and did what they did, we probably wouldn't even have civil rights moving had ever existed. So we did, and I have to agree, we did to our women what the white man was doing to the black man. And why we did it, I won't go into that. But bottom line, if we are not careful, we cannot speak out against something that we are guilty of within our own selves. And I think that's the reluctance of many of the churches not doing anything. So I have a tremendous respect for, when Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem, he didn't say go tell the brother, he said go tell the women, go tell those women her keen coming. He was trying to let everybody know that she's not a second class citizen. She did not come out of the backside of a man. He told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. And they were just as we heard. And until we get that straight, we probably not going to help too much with Black Lives Matter until we respect our own selves for who we are. And I heard somebody say we are making God's image, not just part of us, all of us. Well gentlemen, this is great conversation and we're going to pick it up right after we take another look at another clip from our three of the Black Church. Martin Luther King, Jr. always traveled with Jesus and the disinherited. I mean, he's clean underwear shirt and he'd have a Howard Thurman in his briefcase. And he read Howard Thurman for inspiration. I am convinced that nonviolent resistance is the most potent weapon available to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom and human dignity. Movement histories are often talked about in terms of heroes come in to save the day, you know, grand larger than life figures lead people to victory or to liberation. And that's certainly not the way social movements unfold. At the end of the day, the freedom riders, those who work for SNCC, Dr. King could not have done what they did and had the impact had it not been for those lay people who were brave enough to say, I'll march with you. When it came to fundraising for the movement, one group in particular would help lead the way. Founded in 1962 by four organizers from the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, or SNCC. The freedom singers would travel across the country performing what became the soundtrack of civil rights marches and rallies, raising desperately needed funds to support SNCC's operations and civil rights work. One of those singers is 21 year old, Rutha Mae Harris. What was the relationship between the freedom songs you were singing and the songs from the church? Well, the freedom songs were taken from gospel, congregational hymns. Only thing we had to do was change the lyrics to fifth the occasion, whatever it was. Like, I woke up this morning with my mind stayed on Jesus. The only thing we had to change was I woke up this morning with my mind stayed on freedom. How important do you think your music was to the success of the civil rights movement? Personally, I feel that without the songs of the civil rights movement, there wouldn't have been a movement because the song kept us from being afraid. So you're walking down the street doing a march and this is police will tell you you're gonna be hit or whatever. You start singing, ain't gonna let nobody turn me right. Not even a chief of police. Not even a billy club. Not even a billy club. I'm gonna walk in, keep on the touchin', marchin' at the freedom man. The sound of the civil rights movement is not just a backdrop in terms of its religious substance. It is literally what gave the civil rights movement the financial means in order to continue. It was gospel artists like Mahalia Jackson who would give a concert and raise thousands of dollars. She helped to fund the freedom rides, helped to fund King as he traveled. There were so few African-Americans who were financially able to support the movement, but Mahalia did it on multiple levels. He could call Mahalia and they could talk through the dark times. And when things were really bad, we know that she sang to him. From the clip and from what we know to be true, music is an essential component of the black church experience. Gospel music has always enriched my soul. It's enriched my heart and it also enriches my mind all the time. It keeps me closer to God. No matter what's going on in my life, it easily reminds me of God's love and his promises through the scripture. During the civil rights era, as you can see, as black people march, they sang, they didn't just sing, they sang. What has your experience been with the impact of music in the black church, from the early church to now? And I'd like to pose this question to you, to you, Pastor Body first. Well, thank you. Historically, well, no, I won't go there. I'll say just personally, music for me in the black church was first and foremost my sanctuary. It was the escape for me. As a young man coming up on the north side, again, in a single-parent home, I could've gotten into a lot of different things, but music provided an escape from a lot of the social ills that I could've found myself involved in. So I threw myself into it. The church was open during the week. We had one janitor who would allow me to come in after school and to plunk on the pineapple for a while. And when the piano got locked up, then I went to the organ and I learned that and I practiced and I became good at what I did. So it provided that escape. Provided that escape and provided that sanctuary. It gave me an outlet of expression. I could express myself in ways with music that was particular to my culture particular to my experience. I could express myself in ways that other ethnic groups did not and could not. And so to this day, I just value the music that I came up under, I came up learning a variety of music, of genres of music, of the genres and forms of this thing we call Musicaela Black Church. So it's a wonderful background. Thank you. Pastor Echelberger, I wonder what has been your experience with the impact of music in the Black Church? I often think that somewhat like Reverend Boddy said, had it not been for the music that I learned and heard saying in the church, no doubt I probably would have been skit so strong out on something because I had issues within myself. But those songs allowed me to, they spoke to my conditions, things that I was afraid to tell other people about it. I was afraid to tell anybody, no, I had a problem with. Songs like I must tell Jesus and all of this, these songs helped enforce the gospel that was being preached. I remember going downtown on Ashley Street at Hollywood Music School buying a gospel pearl. I learned every stanza for the songs to be saying because it spoke to my condition, it spoke to my situation. It spoke to everything that I read in the Bible and it was synonymous with the two. So to me, the gospel music of our church was no different than the Bible I was reading. And I thought, I believe to this day that was the law and I feel the same way about the old music. Now I'm not against what they're doing now, but take me back to the old time way. Yeah. Yeah. Any thoughts on that? Most definitely. I love the gospel music. My God, yes. I wanna lean on you Lord. What a fellowship, what a joy divine leaning on the everlasting law. I'm talking Edwin Hawkins. Oh happy day. I'm talking Maria Jackson. I'm talking the Winans. Ranch Allen. I'm talking the clock sisters. You have the sunshine of my life. And of course to today's music, the battle is not yours. It's the Lord's. It's the Lord's. Wow. Thank you for, I'll consider that your gospel rap. So thank you very much for that. It was, it brought back a lot of memories and I'm sure it warmed the hearts of a lot of people in our audience and especially us that's sitting on this panel this evening. So thank you for rekindling some of those old songs and some new ones that is near and dear to the hearts of African-Americans. I wanna switch the topic again, gentlemen. And I wanna talk about something that is very current in our lives, everyone's lives. COVID has claimed the lives of many African-Americans in our community and all over this country, all over this world. And it's left many people debilitated. The COVID vaccine is available now for high-risk individuals. And so it'll be available for everyone. It's been reported that African-Americans are hesitant to take it. What should the black church and community do or what should they say about taking the vaccine? Where is our place? Or is there a place for the black church when it comes to the COVID vaccine and how we approach it with people in our community? I'm gonna go right back to you, Pastor Echelberger, if you would respond to that for me, please. Well, to be honest, I think that's an individual choice. I would not condemn a person for doing it or taking the vaccine or what I condemn them for not taking it. No more than I will for people who've never taken the flu shot. I know it's supposed to be a worse thing, but I would not stand anywhere and say, you have to do it. Now, if they say that we have to do it, that's a different thing. And I think it's a personal choice because I've had some personal issues with it and nobody can change that. So I would not enforce it from my church, from COVID on anybody, nor would I condemn them if they did it. Thank you. You did ask me right, yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. Ben? Well, we know from the past that, excuse me, but the white power structure has experimented on black people. I mean, let's take it back to Birmingham and the simplest experiments and the Tuskegee experiments. So yeah, we kind of leery. Why? Because historically we know we can't trust science. Here, if you're black, we get some serious questions. However, I also look at these serious racial disparities that we are up against. And at this point, I think that I know I have decided to roll the dice and to take the vaccine. I can also say that I'm very happy. And so many other black churches here in Jacksonville, Florida have taken a leadership role in attempting to help people not only take the vaccine, but to get them transportation to and fro. I think it's necessary that we do this to save lives. Thanks. Surprise. Yeah, the historic now, we'll say this, historically the black church has always served as a information hub for our community, for our people, it served as an information hub. And so I believe that with any social movement, with any kind of social endeavor, whether it be health, whether it be employment, whatever it may be, the church can take its ground, take its place again in providing that kind of information, intense information, a very layered and detailed information, provide that information again. If persons decide to take up that information, if they don't, we do have a responsibility to try to help people see their way through. And again, as Bishop has already said, it is a personal choice. This is a personal decision that has to be made, but it can be made from an informed posture. And I think that if the black church is going to contribute, then that's what it ought to do. It ought to be a forum that compiles the information, but also presents it to the community so that they can make informed decisions. Can I just ask one quick question based on what you're saying? Do you believe these statistics that more black people are dying or that we are dying disproportionately as a result of COVID-19? I'm not sure if I completely believe those statistics. I'm not sure if I do. I know that there is death all around. So this disease, this virus is just deadly in general. And so what can for the human race, what can be done and what kind of information can be provided to make us well-rounded in our decision-making process? I'm really unsure of the statistics can be skewed and we've seen that even media can be tainted. And so I'm not sure. I do know that it is deadly. And so because it is deadly, all humans, all persons are up under just a threat of it. Ravishing their homes and ravishing their lives. And so from that perspective and from that perch, I think it's why I let that bit of suggestion. So what I heard a little bit, each of you say a little bit of is more information is needed. And it's important that the community is educated on the subject and the topic. So that people will then feel confident and are not, but they will make an informed decision about whether or not they should take the vaccine. So if information and education is critical to the decision-making process, where do you think the church's role is or is there a role for the church to help provide that information and have that information come from someone that they trust? I think that goes back to what I heard Mr. Frazier say earlier. I think it was him that said, we need to come together and talk for him. Someone said about having meetings that are not gonna be threatening. I just heard we need more information, not just from one source or from one. And the church can provide that. We can open up our doors to medical people or whoever it is that has this knowledge to make sure that we're informed the pluses and the minuses and everything in between. So we can do that. I don't see any problem with that. But in order to make a educated decision, you need some information and you need more than what we're getting. Okay, thank you for that. I know the church has done, a lot of the black churches have done a lot to help sustain the needs of people during COVID. But there's one area that has impacted the African-American church for a long, many, many years. So it was said in Dr. Gates and other videos that the church is the epicenter of the black community. And I think I heard one of you say it in your introduction. Health disparities are a big issue because of decreased employment opportunities for livable wage jobs, which limits healthcare access and access to healthy foods. How can the church impact change when it comes to health disparities of black people in the church, not just COVID, but other health disparities? I personally believe that we should have holistic ministries where we don't just, as I said earlier, faith is not a voodoo tool that we just eat anything and we won't live in a kind of way, drink what we want and expect God to heal us. We must become proactive when it comes to our health. There are some things that we can do, whether we have the proper money to pay for insurance or not. Health insurance is not going to help us if we're still doing the things to kill us. So therefore, the church, we have even our church, we have seminars, we have people come in and talk to us how important it is to learn how to cook properly, to eat properly so that hopefully that your life can be of a better quality, not just to get money to pay for insurance to take care of you because you're killing yourself. So I think we do have a responsibility as a holistic ministry. Jesus was concerned about the total man and he did say that our bodies are his temple and if we defile it, we'll be destroyed. So we have that responsibility to enforce that kind of teaching that the whole man, the total man is taken care of. I hope I made sense there. You made perfectly good sense and I wonder if there's anyone else who would like to respond to that before we go on. I would. I think most of the time we think about health, we think about just the foods that we eat. Sure, that is definitely important. The reality is that there are other healthcare disparities that we're facing. For example, police are actually shooting us more in a disproportionate fashion than white folks. It's three times more likely for a black person to be shot. Now begin to add up these other statistics, statistics like mass incarceration where people are now sentenced more, we arrested more. And I'm telling you that the total picture here is that we're suffering from genocide in the classic definition of the word. Now, if that's not a health problem, then you tell me what is. Okay, thanks a bunch. We have gotten a few questions from the audience and I am going to pose a question that was asked by Richard. Richard asks, what challenges are there for today's black church to involve, motivate and inspire today's youths? What challenges are there? Media saturation, I'll say that. Media saturation. Tell us more about it. I have two teenagers. I have two teenagers, my wife and I, 17 and 14. And one of the challenges and they've grown up in a Christian home. They've grown up in the Christian church. I passed it for 11 years. They grew up with me as their pastor. And the challenge has always been just their access to some kind of device that holds their attention, that entertains them. And now with a move with such a large move across the board, across culture, across society, that everything is in the palm of your hand. Everything is so mobile. Everything that you could want comes in these media bursts, in these sound bites. That has become the informative piece for the generations coming up behind us. They trust social media more than they trust the words of a community sage. They trust social media more than they trust the preacher standing behind the pulpit. They trust the social media much more than they trust their teachers and instructors and professors in institutes of learning. I think that we are waging a war this may be a stretch, but the devil is known as the prince of the power of the air. And I believe that he is exercising influence in that realm. And that's one of our biggest, our greatest challenges. So that relates to motivating youth. Thank you for responding to that. Anyone else would like to respond to that question? I would like to say I agree 1,000% with what he just said. That's nothing but the truth. I'd like to give you a little bit more of a different perspective of the truth. And I don't want to seem as if I'm hopping on this, but you've got to take this message from the pulpit to where the people are. These kids don't know you. They don't trust you. And I'm telling you that we talk about community policing. We want the policemen to come out of the side of the car. Well, I'm telling you, we need pastors and preachers to come from out of the church. We need to walk around and start to talk to the people. We must reclaim our neighborhoods. And you cannot do it if you don't come out and talk to these children. They are our children. They are our most precious resource. We've got to do something different. You cannot continue to do the same thing and expect different results. I'm telling you that so much of the black church and its leadership right now, as it relates to our children and the problems that confront us, you are in denial. So Ben, I'm gonna add a little bit more onto that for you. Helen asks, what is the church's role regarding black on black crime? Let's start with you on that, Ben. I'd like to. I think that we need to talk about very honestly, parenting. We've got to teach parents to be better parents. We've got people who are caught up because of this capitalist system and they cannot understand how to deal with it. They've got to pay J.E.A. They've got to pay the rent and then their sons come home with guns and money. They used to call it filthy looker in the church. What do they do? Mama takes the money and she pays the bill. Listen, we're up against the system here and we must begin to address this issue honestly and straightforwardly. I'm hopeful that we can do a better job parenting but then we can to address the root issues of so many of our problems. And it is a system that is clearly unfair to black people and people of color. Thanks, Ben. Pastor Ackaburger, any thoughts on that? Black on black crime, what's the church's role? Well, first of all, here again, I guess it sounds real very redundant. I believe in the power of the individual first taking responsibility for him or herself. And then only can I really take responsibility for someone else. He just said it, I could do all I can do but if the parents aren't instructed, if they aren't taught a better way, a more excellent way then it's, they go back home to their parents. They don't come back home to me. And so I've been fortunate with reaching young people I haven't had a big issue but I realized there are issues and they are people too and they're growing into the wrong direction. So unless we can reach those parents who have responsibility for them and get them to see that it's more, your child is more important than a brand new car working three jobs and leaving them home alone. There are a lot of things we must address and we're gonna have to do it if we expect some change. If we keep waiting on the other ethnic groups to help us, we're not gonna ever change. We're gonna kill ourselves. So black on black crime has to stop and we must stand up against it. I mean, we really have to stop letting us pick on each other. Speaking of being able to help ourselves we're getting several questions in the chat about mental illness and the church, the church's role with mental illness and how the church sees mental illness and whether or not the church will begin to recognize and address mental illness with licensed and certified mental health counselors as opposed to telling people that they should just pray it away and realize that there is a physical problem. So we're getting quite a few questions in the chat about that. I'm gonna let you self-select on that. When who would like to take that question first? Well, allow me to say that we shouldn't be too hard on the church in the regards of coming to people in terms of their spiritual needs. Homelessness, for example, there's nothing new. The church has been helping the homeless for years. We've been feeding our hungry for years. We've not turned our back on mental health and the black folks in black churches. I don't believe that at all. I think that we need to ask black pastors to tell the powers to be that we are misappropriating and misallocating some of our funding. We need to invest more in terms of prevention and intervention and budgets and city budgets. That's my point. Okay, well, thank you for making that point. I'd like to revisit that just a little bit and look at it not necessarily as just working with homeless, but your average person, how can the church approach mental illness in a different way or should they? Should that be something that they do or should ministers continue or feel okay with providing mental health counseling to someone who is suffering, for example, with severe depression? Or should that pastor refer that person to a clinical healthcare professional? Your thoughts on that? Past the body? Sure. Ministry and medicine can go hand in hand. While I can pray and pray is essential, needing to talk to someone is okay. Or needing to have a prescription field should be okay. And there should not be any guilt or shame in doing that. I think it starts though with a commitment, a very obvious commitment of churches and black pastors, just in churches in general, to partner for the long haul with the powers that be, to partner for the long haul. Because we can't address these, we can't address these issues, we can't address these issues with one time events. And I think for the most part that has happened and that has happened with our churches and that's happened in our culture and in our communities that we throw an event. And we think that the event will raise enough or will raise enough awareness and somehow magically it just gets swept up under the rug. And it disappears and dissipates. But there has to be a renewed commitment to long-time partnerships so that we can see over time some change beginning to occur. And we can see just the fruit of our labor over time. Okay. Well, can I do it too? Yes. I don't believe that the church can cure all these problems on its own. I'm simply suggesting that, for example, JSO has a half billion dollar budget. And we're suggesting that some of that money should be reallocated. We need churches who will stand up or pastors who will say, we need to spend that money differently. We need to allocate more money to mental health. Thank you, Ben. Pastor Elkeberger, mental health and church members, should that be up to the pastor to provide counseling or is it okay for pastors to refer members to licensed mental health counselors? If indeed that pastor, just because you are a pastor, doesn't necessarily mean that you always know what you're doing when it comes to every subject. So there are some situations that you need to refer people to the proper people. And that should be a crime. It should not be some embarrassment. I have no problem with, there are some cases, some cases are really mental. And some cases are based on other things that brought about the situation. If the pastor is wise enough to take this, he should refer those people knowing that he can, he's not the best source, refer them to the proper source. And then like he said earlier, to stay with, keep up with these people. Just don't send them somewhere and forget them, but you keep checking with them to make sure that progress is being made. Because as a pastor, you do not know everything. You know what you need to know hopefully, but you don't know everything. So I don't have a problem with referring people to the proper sources. The same way if I can't provide all the food for my community, I know I'm a part of a food bank that can. So why would I keep them there starving to death when I can recommend them somewhere? So I'm agreeing with Brevin Body. Well, thank you. I think you all are very wise men and have given these questions some really, some good thoughts and in your responses. And we do appreciate that. Now, there are some of our audience members who are concerned about you and your health and how you're doing. And so they're asking and wanna know, what are you doing for self-care? How are you caring for yourself so that you can care for your flock or the people in your life, the people around you? So I'm gonna start with Pastor Body. If you would just share with us, what are you doing for self-care? How do you take care of yourself so that you can take care of everyone else? I fill up my car. I pull back the sunroof. Put my wife on the driver's side. I turn on serious radio to the watercolor station and we ride. We just escape. We take our time and that could happen. As a matter of fact, that could happen tonight after this webinar. You know, I may engage in some self-care after this because this has been a very great experience. I'm gonna need some self-care afterwards. But those things that make me happy, that's a simple joy. I'll go ahead and say, we like Brewsters. No, no, no, no advertisement for them, but we love Brewsters. We do those things that just make us happy. Yeah. Sounds good, sounds good. How about you, Ben Frasier? Well, I'm trying to eat less butter, less mayonnaise in an attempt to lure my cholesterol, less fried fish, less fried chicken, but I got news for you. I need prayer. Yes. Don't we all, don't we all? How about you, Pastor Eichelberger? Well, I guess at this point in my life, I finally decided there are a lot of things I can't do anything about. So I just let it go and let it take care of itself, let other people handle it. And so, you know, I saw one time a little example is two monkeys were hanging from a tree. And one of them said, you know, I must learn where my responsibility ends and the other person begins. So I learned to stay in my own lane and I enjoy, I like myself, I enjoy myself and I don't wanna do it, I don't. I thought at one time I had to answer every call, respond to every, you know, question. I don't have to do that. I'm only here tonight because my son made me. So, I tried to get out of it, but he wouldn't let me. But anyway, bottom line, doing the things that make you and what like Reverend Boddy said and Reverend Frasier, it's you learn yourself, you find out what's important, what's really wreaking havoc in your life and get rid of it. Okay, well, we want you to thank your son for us to make sure that you were here on this call tonight. And we appreciate your honesty and your transparency because that's really why we ask these questions is because we want the real truth, not the made up truth. And that's why you three are on this panel tonight. We do have another question from our audience and we'd like our audience to continue to ask those questions, keep them coming. Shirley asks, given the serious state of things in black neighborhoods, would you support a summit led by the black church or black church leaders to create collective agenda and collective action as happened during the civil rights movement? Are you all open to bringing leaders of churches together to begin the conversation at your level? I don't see anything wrong with that. I think that would be excellent. If we could get that done, that would be a great move in the right direction. I think along with that, though, that each church and each church leader has to be aware of their capacity to help, what they have to bring to the table, be aware of that and offer that. And this may sound harsh, but offer that alone. All of us can't address everything. All of us can't implement every device to bring about some kind of correction in the travel. So I think that every church and every church leader ought to assess their capacity to lead, to whatever movement, to whatever support, to whatever group effort that's being made. I have a feeling that personally, and I'm only speaking for myself, that I can do all things. I think that we must come together as a leadership group of the black body politic, ministers, pastors, association, neighborhood activists, we must use this opportunity to come together. We don't need to just talk about it. We need to be about it. Thanks Ben, good point. So Susan asks, do black churches want to partner with white churches? If so, how? And I heard the snicker, so I'm going to you, that means you've thought about it and you have something to share. Well, I think that, again, it's particular to whatever church. I think it's an individual decision based upon, again, the composition of that church, the culture of that church, the leadership makeup of that church, the capacity of that church. Is this church, for lack of a better term, a militant isolated organization that could even welcome the input and the partnership of a church outside of its culture and its ethnic identification. That's an individual thing. I would pray so. I would pray that we as believers could find some points of intersection. And again, whatever point of intersection that is, let that suffice. Any other thoughts on that, Pastor Agarbar? I would say, based on whatever, it depends on what the partnership is. Like he said, there are some things we just, you know, it really would depend on why are we becoming partners? We just, you know, there are certain things somebody else can help me with because they've never walked a mile in my shoes. But there can be a common role that we as believers, as he said, that we ought to be able to meet on. I think it depends on, like he said, what type of church, what type of churches we have. And then I also say what the reason for the partnership is. So along those same lines, Susan asked if there's the possibility of black Christians and white evangelicals uniting to advance the Great Commission and the work for social justice. So if that is the specific item, our task is to unite around the Great Commission and to work on social justice or to work on social justice, do you see that as a possibility? If that really is the reason we could do it, as long as one group is not trying to convince the other group to be like me, it's the Great Commission. The Great Commission is not the deal. This or that is to do with fulfill what Jesus said. Unless we have that as the priority, then I don't know. But if that is the priority and that's my sole purpose, I think it can be done. Well, it is a very interesting question. I think that where our missions intersect is where collaboration begins. So the only question is, what is the mission of the black church versus what is the mission of the white church? And if the mission is to bring and save lost souls, then what's the problem with the collaboration? So it's interesting you say that because Susan says that their church has been trying to work together or to incorporate a local black church in activities, but they're not being very successful and they would like to know or she would like to know, do you have any ideas on how to gather together and how they should approach this? I think it depends on whatever the activities are. I mean, this sounds simple, but I don't square dance. I don't like square dancing. So if you're trying to get me to square dance, you're not gonna win me. I'm not condemning square dancing. So I'm finding out what are those activities? You have to, it's just like me trying to go into Spain and make somebody speak a language that they're not aware of. It doesn't mean they don't like me. It just mean they don't understand me. That's not their thing. So I don't really know what the program they're trying to get. You understand what I'm saying. I clearly understand. And thank you for sharing that. And we really do appreciate your honesty and your transparency. And I also want us to remember that when people are asking these questions, they're very sincere. And they really want to work together with the churches that they've approached. And so I commend them for reaching out and looking for some help or some support and how they might do that effectively. I think the next question, Lynn was a very good question that talks about how churches could collaborate. And I'm just mindful of Paul and his three missionary journeys. He went to people everywhere. He didn't care about whether I was square dancing or not. Yeah, but they weren't square dancing. Paul went, I understand the Bible also. Paul had a mission and he took it. He took it to a lot of people who didn't want it. I understand that. We're talking about, I may be misinterpreted the question programs. I don't know what the programs are. None of us should be anti each other when it comes to the ministry of what we're gonna sign to do. But we also have the respect. There are some differences that exist. And there's some of these differences that exist among black people. Don't mean we don't like each other just because there's a difference. So that's what I'm saying. I understand the Bible. I'm not illiterate on that, but there are some things that you're not gonna, I have three sons. I can't make all three of those sons agree with something that one does not agree with. It doesn't mean that they won't go to battle for one. It's just mean that on that thing, they're different. Maybe I'm missing the point, I don't know. Well, thank you for sharing that. You didn't miss any point, what we asked for is your opinion and you shared it with us and we really do appreciate that. And right now, we are going to hear a personal story submitted by Pastor Jeffrey Rumlin of Jacksonville's Day Spring Church. What does the black church mean to me and what role has it played in my life? Well, the black church to me means liberation. Black church to me means compassion. The black church means to me transforming. That when I think about our ancestors, how they did so much with so little and they transformed lives when they were told by their white counterparts that they could not worship in the same sanctuary, but yet in steel, they were able to build their own sanctuaries. And I just think that it is so important that as society continues to evolve, as society continues to progress and move forward, that the black church continues to move forward because the old line of that great hymn, a charge you keep on having God to glorify, you know it, to serve this present age. And that's what the black church means to me. WJCT invites you to share your story. Record a short video or written narrative explaining what the black church means to you. Stories will be collected and archived in the Florida collection at the Jacksonville Public Library for future generations. Tell us your story at wjct.org backslash black church. Be sure to tune in to the black church. This is our story. This is our song tomorrow night and Wednesday night at 9 p.m. on WJCT TV. You have all received an email with a link to a survey. Please just take a moment and click on that link and fill it out, fill out the short survey about this event. Your input is important to WJCT and greatly appreciate it. And finally, I'd like to thank WJCT public media for this opportunity. And I'd like to thank this wonderful panel of men that we've had tonight for sharing their stories and thank you audience for joining us this evening. Be safe, mask up, wash your hands and social distance. I hope everyone has a wonderful evening. Good night.