 Boom, what's up everyone, welcome to Simulation, I'm your host Alan Sakyan. Really excited to be talking about psychometric AI today. We have Dr. Avi Tushman joining us on the show. Hello. Hi Alan. Thanks for coming on. Thanks so much for having me. Really appreciate it, super excited. We have a lot to unpack here in conversation for those that don't know Avi's background. He's a founder and CEO of Pinpoint Predictive. He's an internationally recognized expert on heritable psychometric traits and we are super pumped to dive into this. Alright, so let's start with how you got interested in psychometric AI. Yeah, wow, so would you like the short version or the little bit medium version? Give us the long version. So I was always a very adventurous person and academically I started off in the field of anthropology and I did my undergraduate work in catch what humor, so that's a Native American language spoken in South America, just an adventurous person and then one day I had to get a first job and I wound up working also in South America but working in the field of shaping public opinion, working in some very complex political environments post-conflict, working with corporations and with government and coming into a very polarized society that had just gone through a lot of internal warfare and terrorism. I saw a lot of extremism and I hadn't been exposed to that before, whether it was on the far left or the far right, it was before our country became a little bit more polarized and I started getting really interested in the question of why did people have such distorted ways of looking at the world? So sort of got into I guess what you might call moral psychology and then went back to graduate school at Stanford to try to understand this but I was doing evolutionary biology and anthropology and the traditional answers weren't really considered adequate from the point of view of that field, so I started digging deeper, getting into fields like genetics or what behavioral biology, neuroscience and the one thing that I did get some considerable training in because these are very diverse areas was evolutionary theory and beyond just telling stories but how do you evaluate fitness quantitatively? So anyway, long story short I wound up publishing a book that was about heritable psychometric traits kind of tying together all these really interesting studies to understand at a deeper level why moral psychology exists, why people have different values, why they are similar across countries, what the logic is and so I guess you could say I was driven by a desire to find the best data known to science to understand people to make predictions in particular to make forward-facing predictions at the individual level. So when you spend years reading through probably hundreds I'd have to count but probably hundreds of peer-reviewed articles in marketing journals and political science and the harder sciences psychometrics comes up is very, very valuable kind of data. You kind of think of it back then as like that rare earth element of data it was hard to get but this was the best data, had the most predictive power so wound up publishing this book and getting some considerable expertise until I reached kind of a pivotal point, kind of a crossroads in my career. So that's the first half. Okay and even as you move into the second half there's something super interesting I want to point out this, it's so important for us to put our minds around the complexity of what it's like for billions of humans to figure out how to work together through all of the different languages, through all the different belief systems that we have, through all the different ways that we macroeconomically and geopolitically work together. It's very complex, you know your time when you were figuring out public opinion and the way that people's minds evolve and form is very fascinating stuff and then when you went further into understanding the psychometric side of things, this like rare, rare ability, this rare metal that we have precious mineral let's say of human psyche is so interesting. Oh thank you, I certainly find it an interesting area, endlessly interesting but that's me maybe this is my mentors but I agree with you so alright so I came to this crossroads in my career, I published this a book about heritable psychometric traits and it got to share with a lot of different parts of the world that it got covered in about 24 countries. There's a Chinese language version coming out pretty soon and you know a paper back here in the US but I realized that there were these big economic changes happening all around and that I was part of those. When I was young I didn't think so much about economic forces, I was interested in these kind of questions but maybe it's just that I graduated in 2002 after the tech bubble burst from undergrad and then I finished my doctoral research in 2008 so I was very strongly affected by these economic forces and I'd also spent a lot of time in advising and in businesses and writing as well so those are content creation and my father is a professional photographer, incredibly talented and thank goodness I had a really great career but toward the tail end I could also see kind of the and feel the devaluation of content creation and I'd read this book by Jerome Lanier that was brilliant and it's called Who Owns the Future and is a book that I really liked a lot because I felt that he had brilliant ideas on many of the pages. There are some parts that I agree with more than others but overall like 95% and I think brilliant. He just cuts through all the ideology and talks about these economic these these changes in technology from an economic point of view and what does it really mean and that was inspiring to me because basically what he says and I I would encourage everyone to read that book because I can't possibly do it justice by summarizing it it's it's hard to do that and it's so much more interesting than what I'm about to say but basically looks at the effect on all of these on culture basically and people who produce culture and the kind of devaluation and what's happening to our attention spans and and then on the other hand he looks at large aggregations of data and how there's power there so I felt like I got caught between these tectonic plates there were two paths laid out before me and one was okay you can you can do more writing or try to create more culture and I still have culture and I think there's ways to do that and I have a great admiration for that or I spent about 10 years researching this rare earth element of data that was best data if you want to make forward-looking predictions at the individual level how do we scale this up that's what got me into psychometric AI which just to kind of frame that I think is one part of something larger that you could call emotional AI or empathic AI and that's how I found it pinpoint predictive yeah this is so cool that when when you think of things like a long term maybe like let's say just 15 year perspective on the tech explosion side of things so you're here in the Bay Area and you're what you're literally coming through this period of time now over the last 15 years and it is it's so crazy like jaren points out in his book as well that this idea of data what are we going to be doing with this data how is culture being shaped by this data and then you I like how you starting to showcase to us here that it's a lot of this is about even empathic AI as you say psychometric AI and empathic AI and now explain to us more on you know you few founding pinpoint predictive yeah teach us more about this yeah absolutely so pinpoint predictive spun out of the Stanford Stardex accelerator which is fantastic and it was founded to be to bring to market the first privacy safe psychometric AI to disrupt people predictions what we're here to do in one way that I like to look at this there's kind of how does this make our life better but there's this kind of intellectual way they like to think about it like our mission is to be an inflection point in the relationship between people and machines and we've reached a point where there's a lot of data cheap cloud computing and very powerful algorithms and data is all around us and we're entertained and media and e-commerce and all of these different things different platforms different apps but a lot of people have this sense that they're being followed around or tracked or stocked by technology and that's true and that's because behavioral targeting the most data-driven ways are the most powerful and predominant by people are serious about making people predictions today and so the future is predicted based on narrow past behaviors to even the extent that future predictions are transparently about the past you know would you like to see this film well kind of it's the most similar one to what I just watched last night sure but aren't there more interesting films I could be watching so our mission is to be that inflection point when between the past and the present machines follow people and that point just starting right now already and going into the future where machines start to understand us as individuals and be able to make forward facing predictions and I think that's incredibly exciting because it can make our lives better and I'd love to dive into that and I also think it's exciting at a whole other level of meaning for kind of moral and political reasons that I'd be happy to to dive into as well based on kind of where things are in our country so that's I mean obviously we're a business we do commercial work but I think focusing on the individual is a special thing to do maybe it's a very American thing to do and I feel like if we did that a little bit more and celebrated individualism maybe we'd be in a better place than we are today and maybe if our leaders did that a little bit more instead of trying to reduce individuality and put people into these buckets in groups maybe we'd we'd value our humanity a little bit more yeah that's that's that's well said there's a there's this gorgeous equilibrium the Nash equilibrium that I feel is so where we're heading but we definitely need to prop up the individual and the individual's beauty their own sovereignty their own ability to maximize their potential while simultaneously realizing that the collective flourishing is is important simultaneously so like knowing that equilibrium moving forward is I think you know where we're heading and I'm excited to see how we get there and how it ends up ends up actually prospering okay to as we get to you know what you what these exciting ways of making things better are with with I love how you just talked about this as an inflection point because when you when you speak about it in the wave an inflection point it kind of gives us the more of a realization that this I like also how you called it an empathic AI that for me to be able to understand how I can best synergize with machine intelligence is super important moving forward and so talking about it in that sense is really beautiful I like how you said that so tell us about how exactly you guys pinpoint predictive help help make things better you were talking about also on the morality side of things making things better so yeah teach us about that sure there are ways in which we're doing this today that we have particular applications and I'd be happy to go into them some of them are a little bit mundane I think they're fascinating when when you get into the into some of the details but to describe this at kind of a bigger level and talk about empathic AI I'd like to start at that place because that's the level at which we can really answer the question how can my life be better through technology and let's start with the premise that you know life is difficult we're in this simulation I think maybe we should see what our different definitions are at some point but I definitely feel comfortable with that word is a kind of biological reality but we're in we're in this strange human condition and it's very hard for us to predict the future I don't know exactly what's going on in your head right now I could only imagine because it's full of brilliant ideas and you're exposed to thank you so much and the weird human condition as you said earlier the strangeness of being in this biological world that we find ourselves yeah I don't know what the next sense it's gonna come out of your mouth I don't know the next one that's gonna come out of my mouth it's very hard to predict the future and yet we feel like we're we have this agency we feel like we're making decisions and there's a lot of things that don't come out in the way that we expect and people have been having these thoughts for thousands of years about you know life life is hard basic basic idea now today we can talk about that in terms of prediction and data but people have acknowledged this for a very long time why is life hard life is hard because we don't because of that fundamental reason among many other reasons right but it's hard because we have to do certain things we we have most people have to work they have to choose what to study what's the right career what company should they work for who should they have a professional relationship with a personal relationship what product should they buy what experience will make them happy and people get it wrong over and over and over again so you know and there's a lot of pain that comes out of that and it's hard to admit that no most people don't like to admit that you know they could have done something in a more optimal way that would have reduced their suffering and created more happiness now it's very easy to think of relationships or little failures that we go through in life but let me pull up something that's more interesting than that and more mundane at the same time if you know the you know all kinds of amazing fields and interesting fields so positive psychology where psychology starts to use kind of scientific and quantitative methods to research the question of happiness what makes people happy well it turns out that the consensus was that buying things for ourselves doesn't really make us happier true if I buy you a present I'll get more happiness out of that or if I buy an experience of your unification that tends to increase life satisfaction which is a psychometric by the way but buying things for yourself doesn't so that's weird now why does that happen yeah well there wasn't a complete answer until recently when someone who's a digital psychometrician named one of our colleagues on the academic side named Sandra Matz she did research showing that when you control for personality and match the product someone's personality that they'll spend more on this brand and though that will actually measurably increase their life satisfaction and what does this say this says two things actually very interesting number one we're so bad at making predictions that when we buy stuff for ourselves we get it wrong just as much as we get it right and you can kind of pull memories out of your head and fact check this with your own intuition there are things you can remember that you felt happy with and things that kind of bummed you out because why did I spend money on this right and that's because it's hard for us to make predictions there's with that with the first one I totally was feeling what you were saying with man giving gifts is happiness when I go and get things for myself not only are we stumped when thinking sometimes looking through like the electronic tea kettle section on Amazon or on a store we're just like which one of these things do I even get which one of these do I want well I later I realized that I don't want the ones that have just a metal container I want the one that has a glass container I want to be able to see the water level more clearly I want some cool LED lights on the bottom these are just some interesting strange things that you realize after maybe several cycles of purchasing like electronic tea cat for your teas and coffees and stuff don't even get me started on when you go and like there's 50 different selections of jeans and like dress shirts and stuff like that so which ones do I want well I like color I like color a lot and I like to stand out so now is there a way to make things like pinpoint predictive be able to realize better oh Alan wants styles of electronics like this or styles of clothing like that and just make it so I don't have to go through this process of trying to figure shit out yeah absolutely yeah that's exactly what we do is there are behavioral ways to figure things out like Alan took a digital behavior and let's show them an ad for that or and that's what happens today and people feel followed around by the tea kettle if you'll fall around by the lawnmower after they already made a decision and they're not gonna buy another tea kettle for for quite some time or there's the the film example it's forward-looking but it's so transparently and narrowly based on the past that it's not the most interesting film that you could be watching in that moment whereas a psychological recommender system works as well or better than the behavior one but it says I only think you're gonna like this because I'm speaking as if as if I were in the consciousness of and you know an artificial intelligence or machine learning right we've looked at billions and billions of data points and statistical patterns and you're very similar in numerous psychological dimensions that people who like the tea kettle that has the the blue light and you can see the water and maybe you should get to know this tea kettle sooner in your in your tea kettle venture in life and you'll get more happiness sooner from that right stuff like that that's okay cool this is very important did you remember the second part I completely forgot but I'm sure some other it will some ideas will come right okay okay I just wanted to check in about that thanks okay and then I just now let's keep playing on this point because I think this point's super interesting this idea that if we can sort of realize that there have been a hundred billion humans before us that built civilization and they've all had exposure to these different stimuli in this biological reality that we live in and then we can understand certain junctures that these hundred billion humans have went through in their life that depending on the things that they enjoy and depending on the junctures that they've been at that then similar ideas like on a style of electronic that one may enjoy etc getting exposed to those things at an earlier point in their life adventure in their life story is better and so yeah give us these examples more on these examples on pinpoint predictive because you put us in your shoes of your your machine learning psychometric power system give us more thoughts on these examples and the relatability that they can have for bettering our lives I think reducing the suffering that happens when there's a mismatch a difference in our expectation of what will make us happy compared with what actually does whether it's something as mundane as a tea kettle or something as significant as a relationship or a career or or any of those important decisions that are hard to make and going back to your other idea about all the people that came before I'd like to borrow an idea from Yvonne Harari and in particular from a talk that he gave at Google a few years back and he made a very provocative kind of statement that I think is one of more interesting and important things he said he says a lot of interesting things of course a lot of people are interested in what he has to say and and I had the privilege of getting to know his work a little while a little bit in the past and got to write a review in the Washington Post of sapiens and when I was doing that I I was actually already doing pinpoint and predictive and so I watched this talk that he gave at Google and he said something incredible which is that in the development of humanity there's been a shift in the locus of that authority kind of ultimate authority and it used to be and of course we don't really live in some kind of linear uniform time when I say used to be it still is like all of these are still true right like there's a lot of things in life that are like that religion is one of them we have this idea is like a religion is this coherent thing but a lot of things that people believe come from actually different things like a lot of people believe in ghosts right a lot of people believe in good and evil and a lot of things get syncretized and it's the same thing here with you you've all Harari's idea and I'm actually gonna get to hopefully which is that low that transfer of locus so that the first one they mentioned is religious authority where that's the highest authority and of course in many places in cultures it still is and then he says in in cultures that went through the enlightenment that changed and they became more individualism and there's more human intuition right and let's let's talk about mate choice because mate choice is something that I've written about a lot mate mate choice like who we choose to correct to breed with reproduced reproduced with yeah so so mate choice is I'm gonna thread this into his argument as I as I push it forward because it's fun to think about it's it's less abstract so in very religious societies mate choice is influenced by the religious view of the world and who's supposed to reproduce with whom and even who makes influences the decision and how much it has to do with certain groups or you know cast or astrological signs all kinds of you know it's interesting you could talk for hours about that but then when you go from religion to that sort of post-enlightenment individualism it's intuition and love marriage and only you know best and what can surpass your own intuition your own self-knowledge interesting right and that's that's been dominant and now we're being challenged yeah that's right right or data yeah there's so much predictive psychometric AI driven potential for for mate choice right whoa right so so now our human narcissism is being challenged and I think maybe it was I don't remember who said this and I'm forgetting who said this but they said that you know Darwin challenged our narcissism by comparing us with animals and and Freud did it saying that he goes not quite the master of its own house and I don't know maybe I forgot the the ancient astronomer Galileo Galileo did it we're not the center of the universe maybe Freud was the person who brought this up and he was at the end of that but anyway just just another fun parallel history and science and the history of science has some patterns where it challenges us to confront our kind of our narcissism as human beings of our sense of control or sense that we we know so much and that the idea that the that ancient Greek philosopher was at Socrates talking about I know a lot because I know what I don't know yeah I mean that's deep that's deep with stuff still something to think about it's huge it's hugely important hugely important are knowing the extent of our own ignorance so a crucial right I feel really really privileged to gotten a lot of time to dive into some fields some particular areas out to the edges of them when you go out to the edge of a field and you have to create new knowledge it's very humbling because you're looking out over the edge and you say I know this area really really well and that's the end of the world for now something's gonna come up it's not the end of history but that's the end of knowledge right now and that's humbling and building a company is humbling it's it's it's it's a team sport and it's an extreme sport it's about collaboration and so I love thinking about these kind of ideas so we are challenged and this comes up a lot there's a lot of anxiety that people have today about the relationship with technology I think people are kind of questioning their own free will a little bit and not and people don't have I don't want to overgeneralize that's a that's a bad thing to do I think there's a lot of people that haven't thought maybe deeply enough about questions of agency or or will and they have kind of some fears about this that for me are interesting and so this comes up a lot this kind of free-floating angst you know and social media and so on and so forth creates kind of a lot of questions so anyway it's it's very interesting to be right in the middle of that and to be a company that's founded first and foremost on privacy safety of going above and beyond that for many reasons and explaining the benefits of forward-facing predictions and and what is privacy safety mean like what would it get there let's get there in just a quick moment because I have this point that you said about human narcissism is so interesting we've had this over and over again cycle back where our hubris is so ends up being so visible we're just overly excessively confident in our own in our own thinking that oh yeah the Earth is the center of the universe or you know or oh here we go into the next era where psychometric powered AI knows out of 7.8 billion people well yeah these are the best candidates for you for potentially your mate and that's crazy interesting and it's it's humbling because you don't necessarily have to spend all these bad mistakes like with the tea kettle or with the clothing option whatever these these these examples are because if we remember when we were younger we had these fun little in in class in your school at times you would take these like who do you match with best in your in your school as like a as again one of these psychometric tests and it was you know kindergarten in comparison of an AI powered psychometrics but it was very interesting nonetheless to be able to see these things so I just I love your point about about narcissism and also about agency was very interesting as well how much agency how often do we actually how much agency do we have how often do we look at ourselves in the mirror and aim to say how much agency do I have how much how much should I give up to things that are better than the huge the strange human condition that we have so it's it's very exciting stuff now okay now teach us about the the privacy-safe side of the psychometric AI okay well thanks on I'd love to dive into that issue and I promise you that I will you just stimulated cool ideas in my head hit up hit us I'd like to say something we're talking about narcissism I hope I hope it's not narcissistic but I'm a human being so I you know what can you do like we all have some some level of that I guess and here's what I think so I have kind of a funny story and I could tell you the what the underlying logic is later on maybe at the end what I think it is but it's a funny story because when I when I was an undergrad it was I remember like 2000 2001 and I had this roommate back in college and he had like a server farm in her room and he was sitting there you know I was like sleeping in kind of doing the young people thing and he was like doing business deals and the the economy is booming and people were dropping out and IPOs and stuff and I was setting anthropology and learning you know writing about humor in an indigenous language and I was like the last person in the world you'd expect to be sitting here talking about technology so it's an interesting story and for me I feel there's there's a gap there's a massive gap to cross and here's the narcissistic part but I think it's interesting that maybe I could put some ideas together that you know span across areas like evolutionary anthropology and you know I've worked in a lot of developing countries and political environments have worked with different or I've lived in Washington to see for a while and there's there's a huge gap between Washington and Silicon Valley there's a huge gap between Silicon Valley and the world and I love reading the media and seeing how people like to criticize Silicon Valley and I feel like there's a lot of interesting motivations and some of it's very legitimate and some of it's completely on the other side of a disconnect but I guess the point I'm trying to get to here is that technology is challenging us and from because of my background because of the work I've done in behavioral biology that's similar in some regard to work with someone like Robert Sapolsky although he's obviously been doing this for a very long time and more accomplished but what's interesting is we've come to some similar conclusions and I think these technology is like a foil if I'm using that in the right way it's like it's like this weird kind of mirror and I don't think it has to be a black mirror I think that that's that shows really dark it's interesting but it's a mirror and it reveals things about ourselves and we project on to that mirror and people feel anxious about this question of their agency that's what I wanted to get back to and that has nothing nothing to do with technology and it does at the same time now how's that possible well people have been worrying about their agency you know since there's records of people thinking this is an ancient question and in civilizations you know in different parts of the world like people been it's a problem it's a problem in religion I mean in every successful large religion it's a problem I mean that's you could pull up an idea like karma for example if something good happens to me or bad happens to me is that because of my good intention now or my bad intention now or is it because of something that happened in the past that happened was good or bad it's like psychologically indeterminate and it there's there's people been struggling with this in the east in the west and technology is challenging us in new ways and making a lot of people have some anxiety about this question of agency that's an old question yeah it's as old as our biology and I think it's it's really really interesting and when you think about it more deeply some interesting things happen it doesn't there's can be kind of more freedom or more liberation yeah that's right so I love diving deep into these challenging areas yeah and figuring out how can Silicon Valley kind of get a better perspective on itself and do something good in the world rather than just coming up with crazy ideas and not thinking about the consequences of what that means amen that's right and technology challenging agency is a fascinating three-word phrase I like that a lot all right let's do privacy safe yeah thank you Ron privacy safe psychometric a let's talk about that and sure addictive yeah so the idea of modeling people psychologists it's a powerful thing to be able to do and it requires some powerful safeguards so we were founded around patent pending technology that allows us to be more privacy safe than a lot of the other kind of tech platforms out there today and to make this very simple in some respect we don't have any personally identifiable real names or contact information we don't allow that to go into our environment at all and that's one important area that that makes it privacy safe and also we use psychology to make predictions for approved business use cases we don't we're not like a data provider that sells data on people we don't do that we use we build models to understand the reasons why people engage and then make complex optimizations that protect people's data but get to a business result that's positive to make people's lives better so there's there's there's something there I thought was really interesting that that you that separate that separates you both that there's this this strong not non no personal identifiers side of things and then the other thing is the is the business cases these business decisions that you guys get to make with the incoming requests is that you guys get to pick what you want to to say yes to so that it's not simply whoever comes gets to work with you that's very important yeah yeah yeah so so again just to recap one is not having any any personal identifiable information so we won't even touch social media data at all because it's connected to people's names and it's kind of a been a problematic area recently you know we can still you know leverage that media and do interesting things with that then the other thing is we because we were not like a data provider we won't say here's a group of you know here's a group of depressed teenagers on Facebook and sell that to everybody and just wait something terrible happens right horrible recipe that's not a good thing to do yeah but if say an important you know if the National Institutes of Health wants to help people and so you know good group reputable and yes we look at an objective which is how can you help people because the objective shouldn't be I'd like to bias kind of data because there's a privacy problem and there's also an efficiency problem so our technology if they were to come and say you know we could measure exactly how much more you know of x y you know z traits people are and many other things that people even think of as a the fun thing about social scientific data science is there's always like these three levels of findings there's the obvious stuff there is the stuff that's not obvious but it makes sense and it answers questions and then there's the curly fries category what's the curly fries category is like the kind of WTF category it's curly fries in the early research in this field was found to correlate with high IQ interesting and it wasn't like a spurious weird artifact of just a few people like a curly fries you know all that stuff is controlled for I don't know if anyone has a hypothesis of what curly fries you know it's easier to explain why people like Mozart it you know whether you know that's just what the data science says or science or the sound of Morgan Freeman's voice is correlates with IQ and maybe people who watch a lot of documentaries and that's correlated with Morgan Freeman narrating them sure like to consume more knowledge yes that's what social science data science looks like yes and we're in a fun area because we look at the individual whereas social science today has a lot of ideological biases where they only look at a couple of groups and averages and that's a problem it's a huge huge ideological problem because business today needs to make predictions about people and we need predictions that are gonna help us that are individualized to us but social science needs to go further it can't just focus on you know all men versus all women or average like like behavioral economics is a fascinating field but I have to criticize it a little bit because it's great to know that on average we have these irrationalities although from an evolutionary point of view they've become a little bit less irrational but anyway but how do you operationalize that like what is person is you know level like what is the variance in the irrationality you know our different people and how do you build models to make real predictions and have real business results that's where that field needs to go that's right yeah yeah this the social sciences of the individual and the psychometric profiles of those individuals is very fascinating in the way that they engage in there in these this biological environment that we play in and being at this field like I like your point earlier about being at the edge when you're at the edge of knowledge there's a lot of hubris there's a lot of hubris and that you've got to be very careful you have to be humble you have to be humble just in case I think I think being at the edge is a cure for hubris it's a cure for hubris totally yeah but being humble at the same time sometimes it's we can get overly confident in our echo chambers of edge and there's a lot of issues that can happen with disseminating the knowledge to the youth that are coming up that we need to get better at and education etc okay two questions on the way out I'll be first question is what is a core driving principle of your life well in two parts I mean one kind of used has been one has been I'm the kind of person that really likes complex systems you know it's funny my my mom was telling me about when I was a kid and what my favorite toy was and I'm glad she brought it back so brought back these fond memories that were hidden inside of my head I'd forgotten but they were like these Japanese boxes think like the Russian dolls but way cooler different colors different shapes is like one inside of another inside of another I've always loved iterations you know I've loved depend I've loved like clauses inside of clauses in language I like that you know if you're if you're building something and I like understanding how very complex systems fit together and being able to see the whole better and faster and getting there getting there sooner so there was no perfect person in the world to write a science book about heritable psychometric traits I mean it had covered too much ground but I felt like I was as good as person as they need to give it a try and when I understood that more powerful forward-facing privacy safe interpretable and efficient people predictions were possible there could be a scientific standard in people data to compare people on something meaningful and predictive and that to be done I wanted to get there first so that's the first part of the answer but the second part is actually implementing it you know I had to it's much more of a team sport so that changed my perspective a lot yeah you know collaboration is an interesting thing it's it's I think that pushes people to grow and to get people with such different expertise to work together on on something very complex and and to kind of give the back-and-forth the different expertise is is a beautiful thing and it's and it's a difficult thing and it's something that's necessary for progress yeah I'll be this is such a fun show I really appreciate you coming on and teaching us about pinpoint predictive psychometric AI it's been a lot of fun thanks on thank you thanks for having me it's been a blast thanks everyone for tuning in we greatly appreciate it we'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments below on what we were talking about let us know get that community rolling also check out the links below to pinpoint predictive go and check them out and much love support the artists and entrepreneurs that you believe in support them help them grow also build the future everyone shout out to Ron for producing and directing the show we love you all so much and we will see you soon