 So thank you everyone to coming to this talk. You ready to start too? Yeah. Fabulous. We've called it That's a Free Software Issue. Because it is. A little bit about us. My name is Karen Sandler. I'm the executive director of an organization named Software Freedom Conservancy. Raise your hand if you've heard of Conservancy. So like three quarters of the room. We're a nonprofit charity. We're the home of lots of free software projects like Git, Samoan, Inkscape. The list goes on and on. We also are the home of the Debian Copyright Aggregation Project. And we are the home of Outreachy, which is a diversity initiative that Debian participates in. And the very shortest note about me is that I have a heart condition. And I'm fine, but my heart is three times the size of a normal person's heart. And I'm at a very high risk of suddenly dying. So I have a pacemaker defibrillator, which is awesome, except I can't see the source code in my own body, which has caused me to be really, really passionate about software freedom. Karen might be a cyborg, but I'm a cat owner. This is a picture of my cat. His name is Bash. My name is Molly de Blanc. I'm a free software activist. I'm the Campaigns Manager for the Free Software Foundation. How many people here know about the FSF? Whoa! How many of you are members? Still good. Can we ask how many are Conservancy supporters? How many of you are Conservancy supporters? Nice. How many of you are both? Thanks. If anyone, since I'm a volunteer with the Free Software Foundation, I'm also a lawyer, and I only do pro-bono legal work now. But since I'm a volunteer sometimes with the Free Software Foundation, I can say that if anyone signs up to become a Free Software Foundation associate member during this talk, come up afterwards and high five me. And I can say, since I volunteer for the Conservancy, that if you would like to become a Conservancy supporter by the end of this presentation, I will high five you. So in addition to those things, I'm also on the Board of the Open Source Initiative. I like to think this makes me doubly qualified to talk about licensing, even though I'm less qualified than Karen to talk about licensing. But you also are affiliated with all of the orgs officially. Which brings us to what is user freedom? Raise your hand if this is maybe your first conference in free and open source software. So we've got, let's give all these people a round of applause, they're like five people here who are new. So a brief introduction, do you want to start that? Sure. User freedom is predicated, it's based on the idea we first need to understand and appreciate that we have digital rights. We're extending our rights that exist in physical spaces to digital spaces. And once we understand that, we can then think about and talk about, well, there's the software and these technologies that we're using and we also have rights specifically relevant to those. So user freedom is the freedoms that we have relating to technology and software. User freedom is a really important part of how our digital rights, this slide is not, oh, there it is, oops, I know I've gone too far, advancing. But software freedom is an important piece of user freedom. User freedom, I think it's very difficult for user freedom to exist without software freedom. So software freedom, should I just, yeah. Software freedom is software that you can, I love this picture, which to shill further for the FSF, you can buy this on a T-shirt from them. But it's software with four freedoms and the ability to run the software, to make modifications to the software, to contribute back those changes to share the software generally. There's different licenses that help accomplish this. Free and open source software is predicated on a legal construct and there's this really special idea called Copy Left where we use copyright which creates effectively a monopoly but in order to keep software free and to share it. So this is kind of a crash course on what free software is and what software freedom is and how it fits in the context of user freedom. Did you wanna add anything to that? That's great. So now we wanna tell you about why we care about free software. We mostly care because we care about the feature of our technology and we care about how technology is interwoven into the societies that we live in. For me, the reason why I care about software freedom is deeply personal. I have this defibrillator. I can't see the source code inside my body but also I can't modify it and I can't change it when I was pregnant. I got shocked by my defibrillator because my heart was palpitating which is something that normal people who are pregnant have palpitations but the vast majority, 85% of people who have defibrillators are over the age of 65 and of the people who get defibrillators fewer than half of them are women. So the set of people who are in my situation and being pregnant with a defibrillator was just teeny tiny and no one had anticipated my condition before but I couldn't do anything about that situation. The only way I could deal with it was to take drugs to slow my heart rate down. And that was a real challenge. As I live with my defibrillator the issues around software freedom become really evident and as I go through different stages of my life it becomes more and more obvious how those map into societal issues. So for me, this just comes up over and over again as a metaphor for all of the technology we rely on. I care about free software from a high level. This quote, this is a reinterpretation of a quote given to me by Alana Hashman. User freedom enables consent. In order to consent we have to have autonomy and in order to have autonomy we need to be able to understand what we're looking at and what we're talking about. So without user freedom, without software freedom we wouldn't be able to look at these technologies that are running every single aspect of our lives. So the question is why should you care about software freedom? And we were thinking about it and we were able to divide what we think are the core issues into a few major categories. That's the first one. Is autonomy. Autonomy, you were gonna talk about autonomy. So linking back to my heart condition not being able to even see the source code of my own body let alone have the ability to work with medical professionals to modify it really underscored this point. We should have control over the technology we rely on and whether or not we are the ones who want to modify the technology or whether we wanna work with professionals or a team or regulators or whoever it is to modify our technology, we don't have autonomy over our own destinies unless we have control over our software unless we can see how it's written, see how it operates and also have the ability to modify and implement those modifications. Autonomy also fits into that narrative that I mentioned before about consent and enthusiastic consent to the way that we're interacting with technology, the way that the results are being used. This is very vital for our autonomy freedom. Another major category of areas where we think that software freedom is essential is within security. We must have control over our security tools. We must be able to review the security software that we're using. We need to not only be able to review the source code and see how, we may not always be able to see that there are backdoors but having the opportunity to review that source code is a critical component and then the ability to modify when there's a vulnerability is really important too. There's this study called the honeymoon effect. Raise your hand if you've never heard of the honeymoon effect. I'm just curious about that. Just a few people. They studied the number of vulnerabilities in software over time as opposed to bugs in software over time. The number of bugs in software is generally a decreasing number as a project matures but then if you look instead at known vulnerabilities, there's this period of time where the known vulnerabilities are flat and they called that the honeymoon period because it was the time where there were no known vulnerabilities and the source code in the software project and once there was one vulnerability found it increased at an almost exponential rate. And it was interesting and they studied how free and open systems did as opposed to proprietary systems and all that's very interesting but for me it stands for the proposition that we need to worry about our security not necessarily right when products are released when there are great relationships with the companies, the original team that wrote the code or that built the product are still at the company and there's the highest level of knowledge where you have great relationships with your vendors still because you've just negotiated that. But you have to think about this way down the road. My defibrillator is estimated to potentially last me 17 years, which is like the idea of what's gonna happen in 17 years, who knows? But looking at that honeymoon effect, the problems are likely to arise at some point down the road when we don't even know what's gonna happen. I think that ties in really well to our next point which is privacy. When I think about privacy the first thing that comes to mind is thinking about encryption, thinking about GPG, thinking about these ways that we've designed technologies that give us safe spaces to have conversations. For me personally, some of my best friends are people who I've gotten to know, like really gotten to know because we have these safe spaces thanks to encryption. Yeah, and I guess I would add to the privacy component is that we have to know who holds the keys and we also have to be able to adjust things as new situations develop. And by looking at what they can do by having this awareness we're also better able to judge where we have privacy. Customization is another major category of reasons why you might be interested why you should care about software freedom. My defibrillator was one example where I wanted to customize it to my apparently unique situation but there are loads of situations where we might be using software that wasn't necessarily originally intended for us or that we weren't the original users in mind from the folks that developed it. And then there's a whole corporate rationale for customization and in terms of using software that you can customize to your company's needs. I'd like to add that it's also just really nice to be able to have the key bindings that you want. So there are loads of other reasons why you might care about free software. And one way to think about that is that there are lots of issues around free software, lots of issues that are free software issues and that we should be caring about as free software advocates and activists but also lots of issues that should be caring about free software as advocates and activists in their own right. So. I'll say Molly and I have spent a ridiculous amount of our lives thinking about software freedom and talking about the ways in which software freedom interacts with our lives. And so we wanted to do this talk in part to bring these issues to you but also to involve you in thinking about what these other reasons might be. So we created this incomplete list of possible reasons that you might care about free software because free software is very personal, right? You can care about them at this high level society issues but really I hope for many of you or I think for many of you it comes down to some personal point. Whether that is for example, your sister has an accessibility issue, your sister is deaf so she can't use specific technologies or you want specific key bindings. So what we'd like to do now is we'd like to invite you, the audience, to pick something from this list by shouting it out. Oh no, by queuing up at the mic. By queuing up, sorry, by queuing up at the mics. And anyone who does so will get some sweet. We have caramel or plum candies. Are they plum? They're red. They're red flavor. They're red flavor. So we thought it would be fun. You can stump us or you can just ask us one of these things that are on our list if you're curious as to how it relates to software freedom. When we conceived of this talk we thought it would be just really fun because people sometimes say, boy you just think everything's a software freedom issue and we say yes because it is. So let us know if you agree by asking us now. One of these topics or your own. I'd request that if there's someone who doesn't speak a lot or ask a lot of questions, if there's anyone who identifies as female or non-binary for you to feel free to come to the mics first. But certainly don't let that stop you. Oh no, we're happy that someone is at the mic. Yeah, you can start. And let us know if you would like a candy or a caramel and you may stump us, but we'll do our best. Sorry, in the UK at the moment they're rolling out a new government benefit system called Universal Credit. This was supposed to be a good thing. People were a bit skeptical. What's actually happened is a lot of people are being thrown into destitution. People are dying, people are going to food banks, it's all really horrible. Why is this? Because their IT project is a disaster. Nobody can fix their IT project, nobody can even see what's going on. I think this is a software freedom problem amongst other kinds of problems that it is like a big political problem too. So which piece of that are you asking us about because there's a lot in there. What do you want us to explain as a free software issue? Just the... Right, I mean, how is this a free software issue? You probably know the answer. I think I know the answer, but I'm... Do you want a caramel or a caramel, please? I'll start off by saying that anywhere where you're storing large amounts of information about a population, you're creating both a privacy and a security issue because that's the sort of information that is really easily identifiable. I have a friend who's, I think he's an anonymization researcher who said to me once that there's no such thing as anonymized data, even if it's aggregated. Yeah, and being able to review the algorithms by which decisions are made and a governmental capacity are key, one of the interesting things that I think AI experts have started to come forward with is that AI often reinforces the biases that people already have. Being able to review the source code that is making determinations about who may be eligible and who isn't eligible is critical. There's also a whole line of cases in the United States for people who are arrested under the allegations of drunk driving. And some of them have asked to see the source code of the breathalysers that were used in order to bring this charge against them. And what's fascinating is it's different in different jurisdictions in the United States, some jurisdictions required the source code to be produced and some didn't, but in the original case, the court was compelled to release the source code and what they found was that the results from the breathalyzer could not be relied on for the data as to whether or not that person had been drunk driving. And so any kind of governmental initiative where there are determinations made about whether people are eligible or not eligible, whether they're this or that, being able to understand what the metrics are that are used to decide it is key. Currently in the US when dealing with immigration, when people are crossing borders, there's a conversation where they have to fill out a checklist of things to determine if they're an at risk person coming into the country. So it turns out that the algorithms that determine whether or not somebody is a risk had been changed to mark everyone as one and therefore preventing anyone from being able to access the country. So would somebody else like to come up and ask another topic? Otherwise we'll keep riffing on this one. This is a pretty rich topic, but it would be fun to move on to some of the others and people might be curious about how some of the things that we put on there might be related to software freedom. I have some personal favorites too. So if you get too quiet, I'll just start talking about them. So how is feeling sad if we software issue? Would you like a caramel or a plum? A caramel, please. I'm so happy to lead off on this. So there's this drug called Arapiprazole. It's also known as a bilify. Recently released by the FDA in the Food and Drug Administration, approved a version of Arapiprazole that comes with a sensor on it. What the sensor does is the sensor, when you swallow it communicates with your phone and tells your phone when you took it, where it is in your system, how much it has dissolved. I believe it's the last one. I'm not positive about that. So it tells your phone this and then your phone tells your doctor. So now your doctor knows when you took your pill and how effective it is within your system. And this is a free software issue because of security and privacy because your data is being gathered. It's invasive. I mean, one of the things that you really wanna do is Arapiprazole is used most commonly as an antipsychotic and as a co-treatment for depression. So what's really great is to take people who are at risk of psychosis or at risk of depression and put a tracking device in their body. I like to say that the line between being a cyborg and not being a cyborg is very thin these days. We just went to a corporate museum as part of the industry tour where they were talking about how the chips that they had manufactured were in every part of our lives. They are so deeply integrated in a number of ways unless they are creating a more brilliant future and a better future. But when asked about how they make the ethical decisions about what they produce, they didn't have much of an answer about that. And I think that these chips or the software that we're using is integrated so deeply into everything we do and the data tracking that we're doing which tracks everything from our heart rate. Is it gonna be elevated when we're more excited about something or are hormonal responses which track whether we're happy or we're sad. All of that stuff is rife with possibility for data mining. It's rife with possibility for abuse. You can cross reference it when it's connected with your phone. You can cross reference it with who you were texting with. And you might wind up having all kinds of implications that we haven't thought about. I got really excited because I thought of two other therapies used for depression that are also highly technologically advanced. There's this thing where they shoot magnetic waves at your brain. I don't know what it's called or how it works. And then there's electroshock therapy which is being used quite effectively for some individuals in both of these cases should you not be able to access the code and know how it's working, how reliable can we really think they are and how safe. I think we need the mic on. Hi, so I tried to reverse all these bus apps on my cell phone. Finally somebody told me we're just getting the stuff from the city government server so I saved a lot of my time. Thankfully it was. Public transit, would you like caramel or plum? Plum. All right. So public information should I start? Public information is a really critical free software issue and making sure that governmental agencies are releasing the data that they collect to everyone is a free software issue because it allows us to bring tools, make the tools that we need in order to be able to interact with it. Governmental information, governmental software and governmental data are critical in terms of being a free software issue because taxpayers have already paid for that information or that software to be produced so it should be available to taxpayers and then being able to use that information to create useful applications or other software that we can share with everyone is important. How many of you have been to Paris and written the Metro ever? I love Paris. I'm glad you guys have been there. It's like three quarters of the room for people on the screen right now. So in Paris there's at least one Metro line that's entirely automated. They're two now. Whoa, that's really exciting and cool. I don't know this for certain but I assume that it's being run on software. In general, in general public transit systems especially tracked ones are highly, not necessarily highly automated. They're very specifically put together the logistics of public transit are really hard. I don't know how it figures out but I assume at this point a lot of that is done predominantly with computers. Hello. I'm curious about how do you relate domestic violence to free software? Okay. Would you like a caramel or a plum candy? Or both because that's a really important one. Yeah. Oh! I'm sorry. One of the new things that is starting to occur in the US is IOT devices as part of domestic violence. At the heart of domestic violence is control over another person. And when you have control over all the appliances in their home, when you can change the lights, when you can change the temperature, when you can make it so that they're uncomfortable even if you're not there, when you can control what they have access to, like that's huge. IOT devices are extremely hackable, really dangerous. In addition to that you're looking at when somebody who is a survivor of domestic violence leaves their situation. They're frequently these days leaving a partner who knows their email passwords. So suddenly email encryption is very important to them. Someone who has access to their phone numbers and suddenly having secure phones are extremely important to them. Yeah. The use of remote technologies has become a cornerstone of abuse and harassment. And so even just for someone who has had their partner move out and feels like maybe they are finally safe, having their lights switched on and off when they don't expect it, or very subtle things that are reported like the thermostat being increased. And then of course as a part of all of that there are a lot of surveillance cameras that are tied into a lot of these technologies. And so suddenly the abuser is able to raise the temperature and then watch what happens when the person that they were abused or they are abusing has to react to it. So it's been a real challenge that there's been a series of articles on recently which I think are really fascinating and shelters have really struggled to rise to try to help people understand the technology that's being used against them and to control it. And then of course with IoT, when things talk to everything else we're only as safe as our weakest link in terms of a security basis. So if any one piece of the software is not secured there's a chance that somewhere else could be exploited if it's talking to each other. If you're someone who has technical skills I would appreciate if you reached out to a local domestic violence shelter to see if there's any way that you can help them either with their, maybe with their intake systems that they have since that's all highly computerized but also to help the survivors that they're taking care of to figure out how their technologies work and how they can do better with them. And how to understand if they need to get a new phone or make other major steps because if you think you're making a clean break from someone but then it turns out that they can see where you are, what you're doing and who you're talking to. I think the majority of people who purchase tracking phone tracking software, you know those phone tracking apps that hide on your phone and let people know who you're calling, who you're texting allow you, allow them access to this information. I think the majority of people purchasing them, I think I read this, is something like people doing it as individuals to other individuals. I have a sense that folks who have no problem with self-surveillance and are freely sharing their information without worrying about having personal control over it are often privileged folks who have not experienced problems of having other people having control over their lives and the marginalized people feel at first. So here's an example, I was on a public bus and I heard a woman talking about, yeah, I'm gonna get rid of this out, Obama phone because now that I'm out, I don't wanna have to pay that thing and know where I am. So I got this other one, I don't have a contract and blah, blah, blah, blah. So what I'm saying is a person just out of jail who knows they're being tracked is going to be much more aware and sensitive to the future use of this information than someone who has never been marginalized or afraid of how their information is used. That's a good point and free software also enables there to be lots of different choices and possibly advertised choices if as free software related products become more prevalent, I expect we will see more information about having more control over your technologies and I think that will be really important. Oh, you didn't, if you wanted a candy you can, okay. I gotta ask Avocado Toast. Thank you. Do you want a caramel or a pumpkin? So I have a point about this and then Karen has a point about this, which is I think Avocado Toast has become kind of the rallying example of fiscal responsibility or perceived fiscal responsibility, the socioeconomic status of a generation, specifically my generation. So to explain Avocado Toast is just toast with avocado mashed on it, but it's very popular. It's really good. And restaurants often charge a lot of money for it. And it's used as a criticism for people. Because, so the specific criticism, the specific criticism that somebody made during an interview was that millennials can't buy houses because they're spending all their money on avocado toast. And this became a meme where millennials were talking about all the things that they couldn't afford to do because they were spending all their money on avocado toast and how many pieces of avocado toast you have to eat in order to, you have to not eat in order to be able to buy a house. I'm not sure if I could eat, I'm not sure if there are that many avocados in the world for all of us to give up avocado toast. So I think about this very much as a representation of fiscal autonomy. One of the first things that I was told when, during like classes about how to be physically responsible was that you need to make a budget, you need to make a budget, you need to make a budget, you need to track your expenses, you need to look at how money is moving in and out. So a lot of the programs that are being used to do this because it's really hard to do this on pen and paper, it turns out, whether you're talking about apps, well, I'll get to apps in a second, whether you're talking about, actually you can say apps. When you're talking about software like Intuit and Quicken, those are generally expensive programs, there are things that are proprietary, there are things that lock you into use by using proprietary file formats. Once you have a proprietary file format, you no longer have the option of switching to a different piece of software to manage your information. When you're looking at apps that you're using to secure all your personal spending habits, then you're looking at things that are proprietary, that are storing like huge amounts of personal data. If you want to look up something interesting, there's, Venmo is a U.S.-based pay app, like finance sharing app, not finance paying app, so you can like pay people with it. Directly from your bank account using your phone, and it also, like their default view is publicly, like publishing on a timeline what you've spent money on and you're required to list something about what you've spent money on. So it turns out that like a lot of people say drugs and that there are a lot of actual drug deals that are now being recorded on Venmo. The fiscal responsibility apps, that's what I got off the top of my head. Yes, and they're also tying in, they want to get information from, they want to tie into all your other services that you use and so they then are potentially collecting all kinds of other information without telling you about it and not having any kind of autonomy with that is deeply problematic. Also those financial apps may not have had your situation in mind. Say if you're a charity that looks after almost 50 free software projects, none of them, you know, you need, but there are many other more simple reasons why you might want a customized financial tool like if there's not one in the language that you are most comfortable in or really almost anything. But when I heard avocado toast, I thought this is about the toaster. Because toasters, like printers have been known to be controlled remotely and used to basically start fires in somebody's home and toasters have now started becoming network too so that people can schedule their toast to start at a certain time in the morning and that is really terrifying. So it's about the toaster, Molly. I thought that was gonna be a funnier explanation around the toaster than starting fires in people's homes. And also you might want to hack your toaster. You might not like the exact toaster settings that come with your toaster. I hate the settings on my toaster. Okay, okay. What is your build to a public surveillance camera? I mean, if, I mean, whether three software can help building a more secure surveillance cameras in the public or we should help government people stop using the surveillance camera. Would you like a caramel or a plum candy? Any of them. I'll respond very personally first with, I just don't think we should be using surveillance cameras full stop. Yeah, or if we're using them, we need to really use them very, very carefully. And one of the reasons why we have cats and dogs up there and other pets is that a lot of people I know who are cognizant of their software use and technology and ethical technology in general are choosing to use webcams in order to keep tabs on their pets when they're not there. And I can, you can understand the rationale and also babies, that's a piece of the baby's part too is that, you know, people do like to be watching and we do need to consider whether or not it's right to be doing that surveillance to begin with but it has all kinds of other consequences and often these surveillance cameras are talking with their parties and transmitting information and since the software isn't available and incidentally the surveillance camera space is rife with GPL violations too and if we were able to get the source code to these devices, we would be able to potentially modify them and control them much more carefully so that we have a much better idea about who they're talking to and how and create infrastructure so that we can implement some of these technologies that folks have determined to be essential to their lives. I think many people in this room are technologically savvy. We're willing to live without certain technologies because we see the dystopia that is just down the road that they can possibly create or we're uncomfortable because of where we're coming from but less technologically savvy folks or even just some people with different values don't feel that way and they find these technologies to be absolutely essential to their lives and so free software, if we had more free software in these devices we could create sane alternatives which currently we can't do. Oh, so let's go with someone who hasn't asked before. Dan has already asked a question, so. I think that it was before me. But he's already asked a question. Oh, okay. Maybe this not deals so much with DebConf but the topic is about free software. I would like to point out. Is this an issue or is this a comment? No, it's a comment on this. If it's a comment and not a question, could we please go to the next person and talk later? Okay. Okay. Oh, you can still have candy. Yeah, you can still have candy. Is this like a caramel or a plum candy? Caramel? Sorry. I was thinking in the line of what you were just saying, in Mexico, we're also like. Is this also a comment or a comment? It's an issue that we're seeing applied. If it's, yeah. We have this early warning for earthquakes which is of course built with sensors that are connected to non-free equipment. It usually works but we had a glitch and it didn't work very well last time. So now they said, well, in order to monitor the software and to make it more reliable, more robust, we will start having tests. So every month, every first Monday of the month, we're going to have announcements of this is a test. This is a test. Everything is okay. This is a test. So that brings. Question, how are announcements, how are public service announcements a free software issue? No, that brings us closer to the dystopia you were describing. Because we cannot check, okay. We cannot check the systems that are used for the early warning earthquake things that are not working reliably enough and we have to live in a more controlled dystopia. What's the issue that you want us to discuss? Well, I mean, it was one more example of things. Okay, so it was a comment. Thank you though. It's a very interesting comment. We agree with the comment. That's what you should have done. Do you want to be scared? I consider caramels to be kind, so. So, like these big corporations like Facebook and Google, they promise their data is important. We always preserve your data, but they didn't preserve the metadata or the structure. They jumbled it up and you have no control. It's painful. So metadata, metadata. How metadata? Any data that's collected has the same possible. So this is like, now you have an insight into a Friday night with Molly and Karen. How is metadata a free software issue? I mean, as with any data, right? Like it can reveal unexpected things about your life, about your most personal situations. It's not necessarily directly related to free software, but the storage of data, how we're viewing data, what we're thinking about data, that's like a really big thing that I think ties into a lot of the same principles that we have when we talk about free software issues. Who is up first? You put death and taxes on your list. If I didn't already think I understood the relationship between taxes and free software, the minister's session last Saturday had a really excellent example of how free software and community collaboration impact there. I'm really scratching my head about how death is a free software issue though. So not to kill off your enthusiasm, but. No problem. There are quite a few ways in which death winds up being a free software issue. So for starters, there's quite a lot of administration that happens when a loved one dies. There's a lot of, I gave a talk on this, actually at DebConf in Cape Town. So you can check out that video for a more detailed explanation. But we need to consider the impact of losing our key contributors, but also we need to keep in mind what we need to do for our own care of the free software projects we contribute to. So I would say death is a free software issue in part because it's something that we need to consider in the administration of our program in creating important free software projects in a way that we're not currently doing it. And then I would say also, a lot of the tools that come up around the death situation are extremely predatory. You wind up encountering systems that take advantage of the fact that people are reeling from their grief and are willing to spend money or not be as careful about counting for their money and free software would help with that situation immensely. Now that we talked about death, I wanna talk about taxes. My question is more, how can we have free software that is approved by the government for such things like taxes? For example, in Canada, if you wanna fill out your taxes online, you have to use a software that's been approved by the government and that approval process takes a lot of money and time, so there's no free software project that can afford that kind of thing. So we have one minute left, so we can, so you want a, do you want a candy? A plum, please. I got to watch one of Saturday's talk. Yeah, so apparently there was a recording of a talk before I got here so that people should check out. But getting government participation in free software has been a perennial source of discussion amongst free software activists. It's been a real issue in trying to bring these societal issues, but I think that we're gonna have a much easier time now as the technology that we use gets more integrated in our lives and there are more and more failures. It's really sad, but I think that is the case. We have refrigerators and cars. They're gonna last decades and we're gonna have security problems and no one is going to have a complete and corresponding source code. Not to just riff from the GPL, but we need the complete and corresponding source code in order to do something about the problems when they arise. And so if there are those failures that come up and we as a community are poised to sort of say, if this had been free and open source software, we would have a chance to fix the problem. I think that's gonna be the most compelling way that we're gonna convince governmental authorities. I think we need to have people explaining why these issues matter and that's one of the reasons why we wanted to do this talk and tie free software to just about everything. One of the greatest things that you can do and that all of you can do is advocate for free software in your communities. Think about places where you can start getting involved. Think about how maybe schools are structured or library after school programs are structured. Talk to people who are making decisions within your communities and that's how we're going to be working on getting free software into our communities. Thank you very much. Molly and I are here for the rest of DEBConf. So feel free to come to us over a drink, over coffee, over a meal and say how is that a free software issue? Because we have answers to all three of those things actually. Thank you very much.