 Welcome to the 13th meeting of 2014 of the European External Relations Committee. I am going to make the normal request that mobile phones be switched off, and just to alert members and witnesses around the table. Some people are working from iPads just to get access to the white paper and some of the areas of that. We're happy to do that, but if you can switch the mobile phones off that would be very helpful, because broadcasting don't like it, makes funny noises. Please forgive Dave Mockson for the Stuc's, it has a bereavement, and he cannot attend this morning. Item 1 is the Scottish Government's proposals for an independent Scotland We're looking at citizenship and asylum and immigration today. Rwy'n ddelchau'n cwm yn ystod yn dd dul commence. Mae'n ddifrwng o'r ffwrddau trwy'n ddifrwng, ond na chi'n fynd yn ddifrwng beth ddifrwng ddifrwng, mae'n gweithio, o'n ddifrwng blendsion hyn. Mae'n ddifrwng hyn o'r iawn gyda'i gynnig o'r ffwrddau trwy'n gwybod a'i'r sechshwn. Dyna'r ddifrwng sechshwn yn iawn cyho, ac mae'n ddifrwng, i sicrhau, gyda'i'r a ddyf yn iawn i roi'i gweld eich eich yr cyfnod i gefnogi'i chyflos ar gael. mae'n ardal yn ddarparu datblygu allan oherwydd i chi'n mynd i gyntaf ar y cymdeithasol. Dydw i chael i roi'i gweld eich cyflym gyda'i cyffredinol, mae ond ddim gion i ddwyng ymddangosol. Gyda'u cyfeinydd cyfudio i chi hirio, Cyfrydiannaeth, Cristina Macielvey. Clywed Adamsyn, AMC MSP. Peter Grady, UNHCR. Claris Asgol, IOM Alec Rowley, MSP, Ffyrdd Cwmbydd Alison Phipps, Glasgow Refugee Asylum Migration Network, at the University of Glasgow I'm Sarah Craig, from Glamelet, Glasgow Refugee Asylum Migration Network I'm Roger Campbell, MSP, for North East Fife Willie Coffey, MSP, Cwmarnock, Ylvan Valle Gary Christie, Scottish Refugee Council Robert Wright, Professor of Economics, University of Strathblood Jamie MacGregor, MSP, Highlands and Island Thank you very much. I'm going to open up with quite a straightforward easy question this morning Obviously the white paper proposes a specific way of looking at asylum and immigration but obviously looking at other countries and the best practice that we can glean from there and I suppose what we're looking for from you this morning and we thank you very much for coming along because it really helps us inform our way forward in the committee but one of the main opening questions would be what type of asylum and immigration citizenship system would we have in an independent Scotland and where do you think is the best examples around the world to look at, for us to look at to see if that would be appropriate for Scotland going forward into the future and I'm just throwing that out there for anybody to come in Alison, do you want to come in yet? On you go. Thank you very much. Perhaps rather than answering the question what would be the best example because I think there are several examples that we can look at which have got historical, cultural and legal parallels Ireland and the Republic of Ireland would be one obvious example It may be better to look at countries where this has been a troubled issue and lessons that have been learned from it and in particular I would think about looking at the example of Germany and the ways in which that has been really quite a fraught example of questions of citizenship historically often where it's been very ethnically determined and where over a really quite a long period of time which is on going into the present day this has then been challenged and really to learn the lessons of that sort of approach and what that then means for people who haven't been born to German parents for example and what that's then meant for legislation around what in German is called Doppelterstaats Burgerschaft so dual nationality and questions of multiple nationality and how that's then been decided and I think there are some really important cases to be learned from a country which has experienced a lot of changes of its borders as well throughout the 20th century and 21st century Robert Wright Thank you very much. I mean I'm just going to back up what Alison said I mean you know there's lots of examples of good practice out there and there's lots of examples of not so good practice and I think you know if Germany is a good example of what not to do where places like Australia and Canada I think there's some good ideas there and that's been built into the white paper in terms of the points based system so basically you have two issues one is that how do you select immigrants to begin with or how do you pick them and then what you do when they're here and I think for you know there's two groups ones that we have in a sense we can control and the others that we can't control we can select so for example if Scotland does make a smooth transition into the EU and there's no transitional arrangements placed against us then what will happen is we'll have people coming from other EU countries unrestricted also then for the immigrants that come from out with the EU we have this point based system and that is aimed at picking people with high skills and the right skills as well as attracting entrepreneurial type individuals who are going to create so many jobs or invest in the Scottish economy so again I think the white papers more or less got that right because they've just basically adopted what's in these point based system in a place like Canada Australia and then what happens when you get here I think what happens when you're here you have to make a decision whether a citizenship is something that you can achieve quickly that is make the hurdles low for it like they do in Canada or you want to make it a process a complicated and perhaps expensive and time consuming process in a sense like a prize and you know you get different you get different types of behavior depending on what you choose now I think what I understand reading between the lines because it's not specifically stated in the white paper in a clear way if they're leaning towards the former rather than the latter which is more the current UK system because you know you know it's quite a difficult process to obtain UK citizenship now it's in there if that's okay for the moment certainly Gary Scottish Refugee Council from the perspective I'd agree with the two others there's no sort of one singular asylum system that is the best that we can look to there are aspects of asylum systems and different functions in different areas that we can look at but you can't just identify one which is the best in terms of the approach we have taken was to look at what are the principles that we would like to see for an asylum procedure in Scotland whether Scotland becomes an independent country or remains part of the UK what are those principles and how would those translate into policy under each of the constitutional settlements and the options we looked at for decision making in terms of asylum was for the Scottish Government to devolve this back to the Home Office to allow them to make the decisions or to do that under their guidance or to create a body which is about immigration and asylum or to create a body which is solely for asylum and that was the what we suggested that should happen and we're very glad to see that that appeared in the white paper but equally we would also like to see asylum devolved from the current Home Office and set up as a separate independent agency one of the things that I've picked up over the past few years is the issue round about how children are treated within the asylum system as well and I suppose you know what what I would certainly be looking for and I'm wondering what your opinion would be is that you know local social work or child protection teams deal with those children's to those children rather than you know any sort of a formula UKBA or visas agency deals with that because I think they have specific individual needs in that respect so they've came here via whatever route is an unaccompanied young person and I'm just wondering whether you know you think there's more work that we could do in that area at all I mean I think there's a a series of concerns we have about both how adults and our children are treated in the asylum procedure but also the trafficking procedure as well some of those most of those wouldn't necessarily need a change of powers for them to happen and I think there needs to be better relationships between the particular agencies dealing with it the home office is under statutory duty to safeguard and promote the welfare of children and you know that has often been criticised and how that is done so I'd go back to the point about what the principles we would want for any system and what's the expertise, what's the policy that we would want in place and who's best place to deliver on that whether it is an immigration body or whether it is bodies that are more responsible for children's welfare like social workers as you say Hanzala I'm just trying to tease out the difference between current legislation and the perceived legislation and what I want to know is what the differences are and also what I want to know is if there is a difference will that attract more refugees to Scotland or not in the first instance and in the second instance if that does how would the rest of the UK perceive that because this would be a new challenge for them in terms of securing their borders that's for me well I think the question of number if I understand the question is about numbers of refugees and an independent Scotland if the people of Scotland choose that Scotland should become independent I mean the question of forced migrants is very difficult to look at numbers I mean four years ago very few people would be thinking that we would have three million Syrian refugees so conflicts change and that leads to forced migrants in terms of numbers of refugees in Scotland we need to consider that actually most asylum seekers in Scotland have been dispersed from other parts of the UK to to Scotland there's no definitive numbers on actually how many people arrive in Scotland and claim at poor or claim in country from Scotland so I think it is very difficult to judge and there's other things that would happen in place in terms of potentially more increased international flights in an independent Scotland but also if the Scottish Government in an independent Scotland was part of the European Union with European Achaeon Asylum there is the Dublin Regulation for example so actually those who seek asylum in Scotland may have registered the claim in another European country so the Scottish Government could be within its rights to return them to that other European country so there's a number of factors at play it's very difficult to say what the numbers would be we don't personally I don't believe it would be extremely high it's the policy I'm interested in now I accept the fact that the variables are incredible to try and assess because there are so many different aspects of it the aspect that I'm trying to assess here is no European country has the same immigration policy right across Europe so therefore there is an issue about that but what I'm trying to establish is if for example it is perceived that the Scottish immigration is softer than the rest of the UK how would the UK then deal with our immigration with our population because if they don't have the same policy as us in terms of immigration what challenges would then be faced by the UK Government because at the end of the day the UK Government will expect a level of responsibility on our shoulders as well as they wanting to safeguard their own borders in terms of their own immigration policy how would that then clash with each other and how would we come to some sort of decision to deal with that if you read the Daily Mail that means you'll have to have some sort of stronger border between Scotland and the number game can't be divorced from the policy because let's think of Scotland Scotland's geography suggests that it has no land borders with any other foreign country besides potentially England the other thing about it is that we only have three international ports of entry in terms of airports let's face it not too many main sea ports anymore and the evidence that I've seen is very few people end up at Glasgow Airport and apply for asylum is basically very few people showing up and asking for asylum the decision that the politicians will have to make is how many asylum seekers refugees will they want to in a sense take to make a contribution to the refugee international refugee problem as documented outlined in canvas for by the United Nations and that is a political question but my feeling is that given Scotland now houses a lot of people that basically entered the United Kingdom out with Scotland that those people won't be here in the future so in terms of the stock of refugees at any point in time I think it will be much smaller than it is now and my estimates some of my estimates suggest around 400 a year but again it's hard to forecast the future but it's not going to be a big number I doubt and also I think this concern that the UK government has which is obviously their business because we're not the UK government Scotland somehow being this sieve where a lot of undesirables come in and work their way south is an exaggeration of the situation and we read about this on a daily basis but I don't think it should be cause for concern I think what we should be doing is deciding how we're going to make our contribution to this global problem Can I just take that point up because although you suggest that it's the iteration historically what we've witnessed across Europe and many other countries is migrants tend to go to the countries which tend to have the most friendly and softest rules structured in terms of immigration and then they use that as a springboard to go into other nations what makes you think it wouldn't happen in Scotland? I'm not sure it happens like that anyway well I mean again I mean the numbers don't seem to support this as being a major problem I mean the thing is countries that are further away from the problem areas are more isolated it's harder to get to these places the costs are higher Scotland is kind of remote and we have limited international access so it's not like we have a big border once we get over a leaky border we get into the EU and we can move around through Schengen and end up somewhere else that is not the situation here but it becomes independent so I do get back to the original point I think it's about policy deciding what contribution Scotland as an independent country wants to make to this problem and I think we should think less about for example what the United Kingdom might do to response to this because I expect they're not going to have to do much because I don't think it's going to be a big issue in the future but no one can forecast the future we can just look at the experience of other countries for example there was supposed to be a big flood recently coming in in Bulgarians because the transitional arrangements were over January 1, 2014 have a look at the newspaper this morning how many came it's a small number trickle small number it's not the hundreds of thousands half of Bulgaria is going to move to the United Kingdom so there's a lot of exaggeration here but when you look at the facts of the matter these numbers of people tend to be relatively small and Scotland is not going to do its policy but a liberal policy going to become the next the world's most popular place for people that are interested in applying for asylum so that's my opinion now we've revisited in five years of Scotland as independent and we'll have our own numbers but I think there are more pressing concerns than this talking about a lot of different things now and talking about migrants and refugees and asylum seekers and irregular migrants and not a complicated area to talk about but I think there are a couple of things to think about and when you think of models policy is important I think it's important to think what would Scotland want and what sort of a model will Scotland would Scotland be looking at and one important thing as you mentioned the distance and the geographic situation of Scotland and whether Scotland would still be within the common travel area because I think that's an important thing to keep in mind because if people are able to travel within the United Kingdom then you do have to have some sort of you have to have sort of common areas between all the countries in the area otherwise you can't have a you have whatever you decide to do here will have to be you do have one common border and so all these are important aspects to take into consideration and also to know to think along the lines will you want to be will you want to be more attracting people to come to Scotland what type of skills or what type will you need and to what locations and how will you do that as opposed to thinking whether you are a transit country now or whether things will change depending on the situation on the way that the way that Scotland does would turn up so all these are considerations and you can look at models it will also be very important to see if it remains in the EC or not and this is a very important consideration Peter, did you want to contribute here? Just to touch on the comment made earlier that the refugees will seek asylum in countries where reception conditions or the framework is considered stronger or more favourable just to know that in UNHCR's experience that's not necessarily the case we would normally see that refugees there are a number of factors that will influence where refugees seek asylum and those couldn't be heavily influenced by geographic proximity and the ability to attain protection quickly by family relationships for example where family members may be and I think just as an example you look to the Syria crisis where you have 2.7 million refugees in the surrounding countries in terms of those that have sought asylum in the EU it's 4% in 2013 there were 50,000 Syrian refugees in the EU I need to say that we've got 150 different communities in Scotland so you know we are quite a treasured location for a lot of people who have a lot of contacts right across the world so we're not just a country with the isolated or any contacts people use current contacts to get to destinations so therefore I don't want to just write off the fact that we're not going to be an easy target because we are and people do encourage immigration from relatives and friends who they perceive to be in danger so there's an element of that's been not as isolated as perhaps being suggested this morning Alison did you want to come in on that and then I'll get roared after that Alison Just to really come back on that point and the point about how attractive Scotland would be to refugees if its policy was perceived to be easier and I think the issue there is around refugees and the importance of refugee status to refugees themselves which of course is granted by that particular country so in terms of refugees in Scotland that would be a question of policy about how people would be given status out of country not necessarily through an asylum process as Robert was outlining and these points about attraction really to follow on from what Peter was saying are very complicated we can't really talk about push and pull factors any longer and there are many different accidental issues which come between what somebody might say they want to do in seeking protection and what is actually possible on the ground over what a very precarious journey is and it strikes me again that it's very important for Scotland to think what would be the most humane way of offering sanctuary to people who are freeing and have a well-founded fear of persecution and to me because of the geographical location of Scotland that points to programmes like the gateway programme it points to quota systems it requires us to look particularly at examples like New Zealand which is also geographically remote and to look at how they have dealt with their refugee population and the issues of quota over the last few years and I think that there are important issues around that also are about languages spoken and family contacts so yes Scotland does have 150 communities at least that we know of where there are connections but so do many other countries in Europe and I think we can learn a lot about humane policies of refugee resettlement to me it is very important that we reduce the danger of the precarious journey that asylum seekers will make and we've just seen again in the news this week more sinking of boats good policies that work hand in hand with the excellent programmes of UNHCR I mean that we can have policies enacted by governments which are responsible and which will really grant humanitarian protection without the multiple and then also very expensive traumas that people experience on those journeys and that's around refugees the situation relating to migrants I think is different it isn't the same as refugee and refugee status but to me those are really important issues for Scotland to consider Rod I just wanted a morning everyone I just wanted to bottom out a bit more the question of asylum and refugee seekers and the common travel area and whether the common travel area has a particular impact on that particularly to ask the professor to write a comment on that suggestion made earlier on but anybody else in the panel as well You know what I wrote about this two years ago on the front page of the Times I got a lot of hostile responses but it's not in the remit of Scotland to choose to stay in the common travel area Scotland that wants to be an EU member will have to reapply that's the note and one of the things that they will eventually have to adopt is the Schengen and the European the Euro they will have to commit to this when it happens down the road I don't know but you know the short run aspect of this is there is you know if you border a non Schengen country and you're a Schengen country you have to build a border we don't have a border so it can't be a Schengen country right away plus we don't know what Ireland is going to do if it's staying in the CTA if it somehow sees you know in the long run the rest of the UK being the only non Schengen only country in the European Union that hasn't agreed to join up with Schengen or is currently not a member but yeah I mean it's an issue if the rest of the UK government perceives Scotland as an easy option for people to come in then Scotland is in the CTA then there will still have to be some sort of border to control this if they honestly believe that I think Scotland should be if they're independent should be thinking of the future and thinking about the future means how are they going to in a sense move forward to take on board the responsibilities of being part of Schengen and you're on all the other legislation that's embodied in the Lisbon Treaty that they're going to have to agree with and actually adopt sooner or later and you know this is a really sticky it's a sticky point at the moment because it's like what happens on day one after the referendum yes we're going to become independent versus what does Scotland look like you know after 20 years and you know along at that time it would be a long standing member of the EU 20 years experience plus experience before so again there's no easy answer to this it just complicates it and it's not only the Scottish opinion that matters it's the rest of the UK opinion that matters and also Ireland and as far as I know there's no I've heard nothing from Ireland what they think about this development is that Ireland is going to Ireland because of the common travel area with the rest of the British arts no I mean the issue in Ireland as far as I understand is Ireland is committed to making its contribution to the world refugee problem and as such refugees the same way in Canada Australia does based on some sort of negotiation if we're really looking for kind of evidence on the point then Ireland would be the place to look on this point well I mean this quote is a part of the common travel area so you know we're looking at interactions and relationships or processes generated by the common travel membership it's the obvious only country at the moment to look at because it's an independent country within the EU that use the euro but also this issue about I mean you look at the Scottish situation let's look at the Scottish situation again 20% of the population here is foreign born most of that population is born in England but if you actually look at the percentage of the population belonging to visible minorities it's 2% right so Scotland is not a country that has in a sense you know you would expect chain migration to operate at a high level you know people tend to go at least historically to places where there's people similar to them right so I don't see this as being a country that's going to attract a lot of people this is why you have to have immigration system that controls it and you select people and it's not just about refugee and asylum and all this business then you know your eye is off the ball because what you need what you have to do is think in terms of five groups economic migrants, students, family class migrants, asylums and others right and these are all different they have different characteristics they may have different motivations to be here they have different contributions to the society they have different cost to society as well and you know it's these groups are in a sense that they are the most important by a mile and if we believe with the ageing population and we need to grow the labour force with the right skills to maintain our standard of living increases and not have standard of living reductions particularly amongst older people then this is what we should be focusing on not necessarily worrying about a group of people that is probably going to be very small I just invite the rest of the panel to comment on that for you I'd like to say just add a wee bit here to what's been said about the common travel area the Scottish Government's position is they want to have a continuity of effect really about that that seems to be the position but I think it is a difficult and complex issue because as we know UK is not in Schengen but the UK's position is regarding the common European asylum system is actually more complex than that it's opted in to some instruments such as the recast reception conditions directives and so on and its relationship with the wider area of freedom, security and justice in Europe is more complex and therefore these negotiations that Scotland would have to enter into regarding membership of the EU which I know you've discussed at other meetings that this committee has had are clearly very important in relation to this and I think it is I suppose it's important to note that as regards that obviously how the common travel area plays out as Professor Wright says is a political question for the other members for UK and Ireland but the point that has been made here I think is important that you would probably look at Ireland because they have had similar opt-outs able to negotiate similar opt-outs to the rest of the UK and that would need to be looked at whether that could happen for Scotland too and assuming it could I think one would have to assume how that would work out would be for the rest of the UK but I think then the question arises if you get those structural arrangements what happens with them then becomes more of a policy question Okay thank you I've got Willie Coffey you want to contribute to this part of the debate Willie Coffey I'm really glad to hear some of the things that particularly Professor Wright has been saying when he's been talking about the exaggeration that's going on and the issues surrounding Bulgaria and Romania that have been covered in the media I think a lot of that is playing to that anti-immigration gallery and I'm kind of saddened to hear suggestions that somehow when Scotland develops its own model after independence that we might be seen as an easy target I think we may well be seen as a more humanitarian system that's welcoming for visitors and I'm glad that when Rod Campbell mentioned the example of Ireland there doesn't appear to be any evidence to back up the fact that somehow people see Ireland as a soft target and easy touch as a stepping stone to go anywhere else so this just isn't the case and I'm glad that that's been swept aside here but I was just hoping to invite members to tell us a wee bit more about what a humanitarian system should be like then compared to what the UK system currently is I mean, do you think that we should continue to have done raids to lift children out of their beds do you think we should have detention centres you know, should we keep a system like that or should we have a better system than that in Scotland? Very evocative sideline we've taken there being someone who stood outside Dungevo for 10, 12 years protesting and then something that's very close to my heart too so please jump in I think there's no need to make a correction nothing's been swept aside we just have a difference of opinion and I think what I'm trying to get at is what is the policy going to be I'm not suggesting that we are going to be a soft spot a soft touch what I'm saying is what is the difference going to be that will satisfy everybody and that's the important issue because under the day we are where we are doesn't matter where we are geographically if people want to come here they will and if our immigration is softer then people will make this a target there's no doubt about that now what I want to know is what will we have to do to make sure that our neighbours are happy with our immigration policy Can we maybe get some answers to the questions that Mr Coffey brought up from some of our witnesses today and then we can maybe move on because I think the two questions are tied really Alison Begu I was very pleased to see that there was a commitment in the white paper to close Dungavel and the practice of dawn raids and of fourth deportations I think there will be very difficult questions for a future Scotland to answer about what it does with people it chooses to return to those countries and again a humanitarian policy that is carefully thought through and learned from the considerable mistakes made by a number of countries around that issue is important it's important for humanitarian reasons it's also important for reasons of international relations how we treat nationals of other countries is extremely important in international relations and already I see from work I do in countries to which people are returned that the policies executed by the UK government are creating very considerable unease in populations vis-a-vis the United Kingdom so I think in terms of our international diplomatic relations it's important for the UK at present but it's also a pivotal question for Scotland in future I think there is a considerable amount of research that has been done looking at the trauma that is implemented when there are very sudden raids on people's homes when people spend prolonged periods in detention and particularly when those conditions in detention are very problematic so from both the humane point of view and also from the point of view of international relations I think it's really crucial that a future Scotland looks very carefully at those issues but without shying away from the difficult questions that have to be asked about what policies of reintegration in countries would be to which people might be returned Peter, did you want to contribute to this part? Just a couple of comments on the detention issue it's obviously a very significant issue here in the UK just a note in relation to refugee movements from UNHCR's examination of this issue there's no empirical evidence to suggest that detention deters a regular movement or discourages persons from seeking asylum it's rather threats to life or freedom in the country of origin far more likely to be greater push factors and just one other additional point on detention in our view the starting point is to how you address this issue is one of human rights and fundamental freedoms etc and applying detention in a manner that's consistent with the human rights framework looking at whether it's being applied as a last resort for example that's critical on the basis of an individual assessment and only if alternatives to detention cannot be applied effectively so it should be an exceptional use rather than the standard and I'll leave it at that Ceda I think it's important that principles of equality and fairness are very much in play I think that that would be a prerequisite in relation to decision making and any appeal system that there should be those principles embedded Gary did you want to on this? We did set out all the principles that we would like to see as I said for any system whether it be in Scotland or being applied in the UK from a human rights perspective based on human rights principles of equality and I think some of the principles that are being discussed at the moment about early intervention and how we deliver public services in Scotland and ensuring that for asylum decision making we're getting good quality decisions and getting them right first time because the cost of detention not just for those who've sought asylum but for other migrants is vast and it's a considerable expense but getting good decision making early on saves both financial costs but I think human cost as well and it also projects the kind of image that how Scotland would like to perceive itself I just want a slightly different angle on this because you think about the situation now we are part of a larger country we are in a sense there's a large number of people applying for asylum for the UK and the processing goes on here so there's some sort of application procedure and at the end of the day it's yes or no usually and this can go on for a long period of time but if you believe what I say we're going to have very few people showing up for asylum so there'll be no need for these big facilities because you'll have a very few number of people we will agree to accept so many refugees but they will be refugees they won't be asylum seeking so they won't need to be processed and most of the problem that we perceive as a problem is because we're in a sense part of the UK and this is our role that we play and we house more people they're applying for asylum per head than the England does that's what it is the current situation independent country won't be like that problem will not be a problem however you have to have a credible policy for asylum and the thing is a deal is a deal and there'll be rules and some people will be accepted some people won't reading about these things in the newspaper in the same way we do now so I think it's only a problem because of the current situation and it won't be a problem in the future and I agree with all the comments there's lots of guidance from the EU lots of international good practice and how to deal with people who are going to feed their refugees or seeking asylum and this current situation in the United Kingdom is not very good and we all know that and we all agree with it so hopefully we will come up with something better and an independent country in the EU I want to ask some questions on citizenship for why I do that can I just ask some in terms of specific Scottish government proposals for immigration they suggested a geographical incentive for immigrants to move to low populated areas of Scotland and I mean last night I saw some figures on the television for example Inverclyde is looking at a population drop of about 19% and I think Argyll by 13% and so it would obviously it would suit equations if you could get people to move to these areas but how would this work actually because how would you encourage immigrants to live for example in these lower populated areas when the people who live there at the moment are moving away from them for probably perfectly understandable reasons Alison did you I'll let Robert go first I've argued for a long period of time you don't have to become an independent country to manage your immigration to your advantage or to better suit your needs basically what happens with these systems is that for example in the provinces of Canada or the territories of Australia that you know you agreed to immigrate to Australia but you agreed to stay and work in a particular region for some period of time and that's a labour contract that you name on the contract the visa goes in your passport it says that's the case if you break decide that you don't really like Edmonton and you move to Toronto you've broken the contract and therefore you have broken the law and you'll be subject to whatever happens and it's often deportation but I mean it's much harder to of course manage in a situation where you don't have that type of system government but I mean one of the things that you know myself I came to Scotland for one year and stayed 24 okay I'm still here it's getting people to the places in the first place is the key and if you stay for anywhere about two years you tend not to move so an aspect of immigration policy should be saying when we need people here then you should say well please go there and try to if you make payments or whatever to get the people to these regions now we're thinking about terms I think we're thinking in terms of skilled migrants so you know I don't really think it's that's much an issue what is an issue is if we have a lot of vacancies in a particular area that no one wants to take that we have to get people there to take those in it's the only way that we can do it it's just get them there and the data suggests that a percentage of them and we don't know what the exact number is will stay but if it's one it's better than zero isn't it so I think that you know in terms of this sort of Canada where it's and Australia where it's part of law and it's part of immigration and system and part of employment ministry that's you know not relevant of course for people in Inverclyde but I think it's a you know it's worth you know bringing that to the attention of the people that want to immigrate there's opportunities here and you should go there Alison Thank you I think there's two quite important factors here one is that the more of incentives that's about geography is applied widely to migrants but is not confused with issues of international and humanitarian protection and I think it's really important that we don't end up in a situation of saying well we'll be a nicer country in humanitarian ways but we'll only do this if people are prepared to go to certain areas I think it's really important that we make clear distinctions and really honour the letter of the law and the human rights frameworks there that would be the first thing and the second one I think is an issue that's often overlooked we tend to think that the incentive is economic and around skills but when you actually look at how migrants live their lives and this very much fits in with what Tanzala was raising earlier one of the very important factors is families ability to see your family ability to care for your family ability to have your family close to you so if there is a serious policy of relocation of migrants or of attraction of migrants to certain areas of geographical need or certain areas of skills need then I really believe that needs to be looked at very carefully in the context of also thinking about family and family connection ease of movement of those families to see each other it doesn't necessarily mean people coming to live with them but it does mean people to see their families and underneath that then of course are some real economic gains because of course one of the things that many of the migrant communities do on a regular basis is remit globally they send money home to support their families and I think there's a real issue and a really important area for us to look at economically of actually having people closer and also looking at some of the kind of gender budgeting that's been done around this on migrant fits all questions the aspect of gender is extremely important the way that men travel and the ability of men to travel is very different of that of women and the refugee council has done extraordinary work in this area looking at the refugee women's strategy group and the differences there but it also pertains across the board around areas of family migration and it's linked very closely to the issue of geographical incentives Gary, do you want to come in on that because I know that I've done a lot of work over the years with the refugee women's strategy group and it would be quite good to get a wee update for myself as well as the committee Yeah, thanks I'd follow in from the other points there about the issue of attraction we would love to see Scotland whether independent or not be involved in far more resettlement of refugees we're very pleased that the Scottish Government stated that they will play a role in taking part in the Syrian humanitarian programme but we would like to see more local authorities and more areas of Scotland playing a role but that, whilst that may have a role in terms of contributing to numbers in certain areas it should not be the principal driver of doing that it should be about humanitarian protection I think that the point about the refugee women's strategy group and women, I do think that it's important that debates around migration and refugees are gendered women fare far worse in the outcomes in terms of asylum in terms of their integration than men do so whatever system that we would have if Scotland votes for independence I hope it would be gendered and look at those key critical things and the other point is I would say that one of the pieces of work we're doing is the importance of a migrant's voice in this debate both in terms of the wider debate about immigration but also in the debate around the referendum and ensuring that those voices are heard whether those migrants or refugees are franchised the vote or not it is important for many of them that they will be in Scotland that they have a voice in that matter Eamon, do you want to come back on that topic? It's just citizenship and rights Can you give us a wee second because Claire wants to come in on some of the topics we've discussed and then we'll go back to citizenship Claire Adamson I want to speak quite a while ago in the discussion today I have to say I'm finding today quite frustrating because I think maybe we should have taken asylum to a different time in that position but it seems perhaps we're in danger of conflating immigration again and the economic needs of the country with what is asylum and I find that divisive in a lot of ways So a simple question in asylum and then I'll do a quick one in immigration if that's okay with the convener on asylum I'm not really caring a bit easier or those issues with it what I want to know of the proposals in the white paper is they stand are fairer and more humane I think that they could be I think they could be but it all depends how it's done and I think there's lots of things in it which you can welcome the minimising detention which is essentially what it's doing we're not going to minimise it rather and it could be but I think that's why I mentioned equality and fairness because that is elsewhere in the white paper but there's the old reference to robust decision making which is an old song in lots of ways and I think that it's really important because decision making is so difficult in asylum cases that it's fair and it's approached in that way and I agree with what Robert's saying but the numbers will be smaller and the idea of not having to have these difficult decisions made at all is extremely attractive but I think that that's a long way in the future I think that probably in the moment there would be a decision making process and I think that there are ways in which you could take from what is already there in terms of things like the Scottish guardianship scheme and that assists people through the process people talk about having somebody with them through the process being so important and that's applied to children and that scheme which the refugee council has done is very good I would also point out that legal age is different in Scotland it's already different and that has resulted in people having more access to legal help going through the process now obviously equality varies hugely but it can be very good it can be very bad but I think that that while there are things in the white paper that are very good and could be there we have to make sure that what is there already that is good hasn't lost as well I think that's important I think that my colleague picked up on a really important issue there and many people around this table know it's been a bugbear of mine the way two things are conflated one is the oil and refugee sanctuary and the other one for borders immigration type thing and I suppose that's maybe the crux it is is that a good model and taken into account all the things that Sarah has just said about how it's delivered I think the will there is to deliver it but no doubt your experience will help us to convey that Gary sorry I would agree with the point about conflating the issue I mean forced migrants to other migrants and there will be a small group in Scotland compared to other migrants most likely whatever scenario that we have and it is important not to conflate in terms of what the proposals in the white paper for asylum it was creating a separate asylum agency which when this was announced we welcomed it was what we suggested that it should happen if Scotland did vote yes and the rationale behind that was around creating specialism and creating expertise and creating I think trying to move to a culture of protection rather than maybe a culture of disbelief which is what we would criticise quite a lot of home office home office decision making and I think because it is small and currently it's subsumed within the whole home office I think issues of protection do how we get lost around issues of organisational dynamics and issues around enforcement etc and actually what we need to ensure is that we don't lose the core that providing protection to refugee will be is an international obligation and it's important for us to do so I agree with how it's done going forward so in essence it would the white paper suggesting a structure the white paper is also suggesting some principles about how a future system would be delivered but the devil is always going to be in the detail and how staff are going to be trained what policy is going to be in place what oversight is in place what appeals system is in place so there's a whole series of questions that would need to be asked but I think as a starting point within the white paper I think we will come back to the initiative Peter did you want to commend that point? A couple of points on the independent Scottish Asylum Agency proposal and just generally from UNHCR's experience in our position on I guess structural issues with regards to asylum seeking bodies we certainly don't prescribe any particular institutional arrangement and it wouldn't be the case at one size fits all it really does depend on the structures of the country concerned what the constitutional arrangement is for example that said the focus for us is on ensuring that international standards are being met in that arrangement and those in need of protection of being identified we can however see that there might be certain advantages as mentioned by Gary in having an independent asylum agency this could be used as a means of fostering the expertise to to establish an effective asylum and protection identification mechanism you're all probably aware that refugee status determination is a highly specialized task and if you do have a dedicated asylum body that might be a good way of fostering that expertise and also on I think just I guess encouraging a protection culture and avoiding inflicting enforcement related messages that could come from having a body that's a bit broader and has a wider immigration remit in that regard an independent asylum body or asylum agency could be a good thing Do you want to come back? Just a quick comment there I think it's quite interesting when you talk about delivery and policy I think that the UK border agency operated in a different way we might not have come to the conclusion that there are two separate agencies and it's really about making what's in place work if I could move on to the sort of economic and social requirements of Scotland in terms of immigration and the immigration policies set out in the white paper Professor Wright had mentioned that he didn't necessarily have to be an independent nation to make this work I think when the frustrations and the context of devolution has been the removal of the fresh talent initiative and the inability to post-graduate visas that's been raised many times in the Parliament in different contexts in terms of the reputational issues for the universities in terms of attracting foreign students and also it was raised at an event Mr Coffey was hosting an IT industry and what we're hearing on one side is there's a desperate need for us to have engineers and qualified IT professionals and attack that talent at the moment the current situation in the UK for which we have a little influence on has actually taken a backward steps in terms of the economic needs of Scotland so if I could look to the specific proposals in the white paper about character point space system Jimmy McEver's already mentioned the geographic incentives but also the loading of the financial maintenance thresholds and salary levels is proposed in the white paper just make a brief comment on those to the other one can I do that? I'll do it in a little time this is the issue there's many things that you've talked about I think they're all absolutely spot on now but the way to do this is to say what are the different economic groups or immigrant groups that are important for Scotland and I outlined them earlier today I outlined them in the paper two or three weeks before the white paper was published and one of those groups is students now we can argue whether we should consider students or not but that's not the issue they have to be considered somewhere in the policy framework and I think it's fine to improve them in the immigrant policy side of the policy of the government however the current situation is a disaster because what has happened with the basically removal of the fresh talent and you have to leave six months after you graduate and you have to be monitored on a monthly basis if you're a foreign student it's making us less competitive because our chief competitors don't do this the United States basically are competitors or English speaking countries of which there are not that many five or six and this is just so critical to Scotland because the higher education sector here is huge compared to say England and many other countries and a very important part of the economy and some people say too important and in the future it will have to be smaller but it doesn't help if we're hampered by policy and Westminster to track students and I get students applying regularly to come and do a PhD with me and they go to Canada because of this idea that they can stay and work afterwards for some period of time and they can get some experience and work on their languages etc it's critical and I'm very happy that the white paper has said we're going to go back to basically what was the fresh talent but in the larger picture think about it it's a no brainer if someone wants to come to your country and they're paying to be educated up to a very high standard contribution and it didn't cost you anything so why wouldn't you want to do this I don't understand why from a rational economics point of view why we have this system in the UK and why we're forced to follow this system in Scotland because it's economically irrational because of two ways one there's no cost to us educating these people and two there's a direct benefit because they're high skilled and they'll be employed afterwards and this is why you have to keep students and the points based system doesn't apply to students it's applies to economic migrants basically the potential supply of people that want to come to live, work and stay in Scotland is inelastic whatever number we want we can attract it's not an issue the points based system basically says here's the price to you of immigrating it can be raised or lowered and the system has to be in place to see what kind of numbers we will generate if the thresholds have to be higher or lower I think the income thresholds in fact the number of people it needs will have to be much higher and if they're much higher we're attracting a higher skilled person so what's wrong with that? that's the whole thing about a points based system you can change things and you change the numbers so again the UK system is the same thing you have to get the system up and running and look at the experience well it's out there but the UK government decided that immigration should be reduced at all costs that's the policy it's always the case with asylum it gets the headlines it's the attraction it's the emotions get going but numerically it's very small it's important but small and really it's about students and the final category which is one that we should talk about sometime as well is the family class how far do you want this to go down the family tree it makes no sense to me to allow someone to come to live work and stay in Scotland whose grandparents are Scottish or their fathers Scottish or their parents and so on and that's the first thing I agree with totally in the white paper because immigration is something that has to be managed and by making decisions like this that just fortunes of birth it's not managed and you might get good people you might get bad people so trying to keep them all separate in different categories and looking at them in different ways but with respect to the white paper I think the asylum system will be better here a great appreciation of the benefits of immigration in Scotland and less emphasis and concern about the costs in Scotland and that's reflected in the politicians it's reflected to a certain set of opinion of the population and two Scotland will sign up to those other half of these regulations or rules that the EU says must apply to asylum seeking and refugees so it's got to be better because they're agreeing to what is a larger set of principles that people think are fairer and better so that's why I stand on this and really I've been arguing this for some time so I'll stop there and very well put Jamie, I think we'll move on to citizenship now because we've got about 20 odd minutes left OK, thanks very much this was raised by Professor Shaw in his written evidence she, there's I and also mentioned by Mr Christie a moment ago about what the relationship between citizenship and immigration would be and at the moment, as far as I know EU citizens can vote in European and local elections in the UK and elections to the Scottish Parliament but not able to vote in UK parliamentary elections so if independent if we had an independent Scotland would EU citizens be allowed to vote in Scottish elections? I just wanted if anyone had any idea on that that might be a question for the minister Jamie, when we have them in front of us now this has been asked to me by two or three EU nationals working in the Highlands and Islands so I thought since the experts are here I would ask them what would the position be of EU nationals if as if the vote went in favour of the yes vote and if Scotland had to re-apply for EU membership and within the 18 months was not still a member what would be the position of EU nationals working in Scotland at that time? If Scotland was not in the EU I would have thought that morally the employer would be obliged to continue to employ an individual to that I don't know that contract I just wondered if anyone had a view on that if anyone's thought about that but it should be I think it's a similar position to the one that George David Edwards the Court Justice of the European Union has described in relation to the position of Scottish citizens that rights that are currently being enjoyed would continue to I think that Hansel is essentially right that when we would have to assume that some kind of continuity would continue but I think that this is one of the things that the experts have put back to the politicians and said you know this would have to be part of negotiation and I think this is why it's important to think about things like membership that come in travel area and how and the nuances of it so I think it's an important question It's been asked to me at least three times by three different people working in the Highlands and Islands what is going to be our status if we're not members of the EU Under Scottish law legislation I think it's going to be a good moment because there would no longer if Scotland is not part of the EU You have to think about the problem if there are EU citizens holding EU passports and the situation has gone and said that we will honour that relationship and time takes away and the negotiation goes on and 18 months later where the new EU member state that solves the problem but there's a lot of ifs there because if it's not 18 months and it's more like five years or something or never I think also if you're there's something called the blue card system which is part of the EU that doesn't enter into this debate and this kind of deals with these kind of issues with respect to immigrants as well so again I don't think it I don't think it's a major issue there it can be dealt with politically it's just up to the Scottish Government to decide that those individuals can just live work and stay here as per normal because X number of months down the road of years we're going to be in the remember state so we've resumed but there's a lot of other concerns around EU membership than that and also who are in the UK or in Europe it's the same thing yeah exactly I think the Scottish Government's position is to honour the citizenship of anyone who is currently living work or studying in Scotland if there is any hiatus although their argument is continuity of effect so that would be that I think it's also worth putting these sorts of questions into historical perspective Scotland would not be the first country to be addressing questions like this not the same question but like this and I think in footnote 3 of the written evidence that we submitted we're referring to a paper by Professor Bernard Ryan who has sketched this out historically in the context of the Republic of Ireland where you've seen different temperatures being taken you might say those are the conditions of diplomacy between countries you also see a similar situation in Germany throughout the period of the Cold War where different arrangements were made and states made particular decisions which were political decisions and decisions about international relations where they put in place frameworks around citizenship which addressed these kinds of structural questions that you're raising so I do think there is historical evidence for us to look at ourselves in these kinds of situations in future and there we would indeed I think be seeing these as questions for politicians to be taking a view on based obviously on the kind of evidence of the historical record On the question, a gram net raised this issue about whether there would be a written or oral test to apply to be a Scottish citizen I just would like to hear the views on that Is the question should there be a written or an oral test or one or two other? Yes, alright put it that way if you want I'm just thinking that actual contents of any test would probably be another question for the minister but I think if it should there be then that allows us to open the conversation up I'm sorry but I'll go it any way you want Thanks very much There is a considerable amount of research that shows that written tests and oral tests are highly problematic and very discriminatory they tend to discriminate particularly against people who may not have high levels of education or may not have been schooled within systems like our own so there are real problems with the tests and the tests that we have in the UK at the moment are highly problematic and in my view based on moribund notions of education and pedagogy are very difficult to see how they contribute to anything we might really want to understand as a good citizenship that said there is some evidence that ceremonies and the processes of education towards integration that happen over quite a long period of time are valuable and are valuable in many different directions so that would be certainly the view that we would put forward certainly argue quite strongly that there should not be written tests and certainly not in the form that they take at the moment for the life in the UK test Peter and Robert but in between that Alex so Peter first I'm just just a very brief point and apologies for bringing this back to asylum related issues but on language testing and refugees we'd recognised that language is fundamental to integration and for the cohesion of communities but I'd echo what Allison was mentioning about it not being appropriate but with particular regard to refugees they're often from very traumatic very traumatic history they come with a lot of vulnerabilities etc they can be very limited they may have had very limited education prior to arriving and so in this regard UNHCR's view is that stringent language testing for refugees would be inappropriate My question is not been patiently waiting on economic migration because I think that that's the area that we've not really touched on today but it's probably the biggest area in terms of the future of Scotland and I do note that while the UKIP predictions in terms of Romania, Bulgaria didn't come to fruition or nothing like it there is still more economic migration than the UK Government have been predicting and that's not necessarily a bad thing indeed in terms of the UK economy it's a good thing but in terms of an independent Scottish state and I think that Professor Wright said earlier about in terms of our population about five and a half million or so the demographics show that we face significant issues shall we say in terms of moving forward so in terms of economic migration there is definitely going to be an absolute need for that and I think that the white paper is a part of policy around economic migration I just wonder does the witnesses have a view in terms of the numbers and the needs of the Scottish economy will be moving forward in terms of migration around economic migration The first and the other question about this language of business because I'm probably the majority of you on this is that you know language is critical for integration to labour market and all these other things so I think there should be a test and part of the test should be demonstrating some level of English language knowledge to some minimum level but it's also our responsibility to make sure that the policy and the apparatus and the people that want that can obtain that if they have to have it then we're going to supply to them because there is no way you can function in an economy very well if you don't know the language of that economy you can't read the signs or whatever so I think that this is why most countries have some sort of requirement like that plus there's a criminal background test before you as part of the immigration system so you might want to think about that as well now get back to the and this is sort of relates to economics because if you want economics I'm sorry in my view it has to be at the heart of immigration policy we need to grow the labour force we need to make sure that the firms and the public and private sector need and that is not going to happen because of the demography of Scotland right if there is zero immigration the labour force would shrink the population would fall and there is no businessman or economist can say that you can do well into the future and generate economic growth with labour force decline it's just something that doesn't happen because the increases in productivity that you have to have and we've estimated them are so large so it really is a kind of a critical question now I was down giving evidence and it's a number how many, how many, how many well look at the current situation we have a net migration of 25 million net migration of 25,000 my work says we're going even a doubling of that is not going to generate the growth that we need so it's not only going to happen by much higher levels of immigration driving up higher levels of net migration we're going to have to look at a lot of other areas where we can get savings and we can increase productivity immigration having a managed immigration system that we have control of that meets labour market needs is critical to that but it's not the answer it's not the solution by a mile and this is a bit worrying and there's other things we can do I think we can realign the education system a little bit I think we can think about the mindset that I think ran is that public services have to be provided by and the majority by public employees etc so there's loads of things we can do and you're going to have them because there's not one single policy that we have to deal with and if you have the number then we're dealing with today at a minimum so 25,000 is the current level so double that doesn't suggest isn't enough so it's really not if there is a magic number it's such a large number it's not feasible in terms of housing markets I mean as you said very rightly there are different models and different schemes that one would be, you can consider labour migration programmesocal法u yr ydych chi ar y Gymysol Olymp Playingifol? Gallwch chi fod yn gット Garage, ca fø'r cyfreol ffordd fwylo ffilm yahr, yn j Edition, felly mae'r cyfrifysgodaethu'r bynu arfer... F vicerent rhaglwgol wedi'r pryd canteriadau. Gallwch chi'n grannu fel鄎 pulling, amrŷ maิl, sa popeth wll-drive. Felly, rydw i'n meddwl i chi'n gwiralingodau i ddiwg�ch ar y dweud. REGELLAAA Fawr iddo, ond maen nhw'n gallu bod, dwi'n gallu cychweithgol gyda siaradau, da, gyda wych yn ei ddweud gofynnolau mewn iddo. Felly, roedd y ddweud yw i'n gyffrainwch gyda'i siaradau i chi, dwi'n gallu bod i chi'n mynd, ond y defnyddwch. Felly, rydw i'n rydw i'n meddwl i chi'n meddwl i'n meddwl i chi'n mynd, yn gweithio'r cyllid. Professor Phipps yn deallu'r nôr oedigau yn pedagogi, ac rwy'n gwybod hwyl i'r ddweud. Mae hynny'n fath o'r ddweud ysgolion gyda iawn, ac mae'n fyddai bwysig i gyrwch gyllidol ac rwy'n gwybod, mae'n ddweud i'r gwaith oherwydd mae'n ddodd o'r ddodd o'r ddodd o'r ddodd ddim yn drwy ar i'w gwirio a'i dtwo o'n gwrsfaith. Mae gyntaf yn ymddangos iawn oherwydd ddifig ar y cwestiwn fynd ar yr unig ar y cwestiwn. Dwi allan oherwydd rydw i'w cyffredinol i'r tremedd o'r gwrsfaith hwn. Rydw i, ar gyfer y cwestiwn, mae SIM na'n defnyddio'r cwestiwn i'r cwestiwn, ond mae gofio adeiladau y cwestiwn hynny. Rydw i'n to the Scottish Affairs Committee, which didn't meet any of the criteria of what we're currently discussing either. So, yeah, it's very disappointing that they didn't come along and be put to questions. We would have been kind with them, so it would have been nice to have them here. Rod, did you want in on the citizenship aspect? Not specifically, other than to just perhaps to probe what the impact of economic migration would be in terms of the common travel area aspect, but are there any comments on that? I can say about this, this is what I said before. Okay, if you're outside the EU, you apply for to immigrate to Scotland as an independent country, they make a decision, they issue you a visa, the visa says you're a landed immigrant or whatever and you have the right to live, work and stay in Scotland. That's it. It doesn't give you the right to move to England to work, et cetera. If you do that, that's breaking the law. Unless Scotland signs up to the blue card system, which means after two years an immigrant who is not a EU citizen can go work in other countries that signed up to the blue card. So it's not an issue. Unless you think a lot of people are going to come to Scotland and run off to England and try to work illegally. That doesn't make sense to me. I think a lot of immigrants to Scotland will be coming into jobs as soon as they get here because this will be one of the criteria that if you have a job lined up or you're prepared to fill a vacancy, then you get so many more points for doing that and you'll come and do that. This idea of somehow you're going to immigrate to Scotland, break the law, jump on a bus and move to London because that's really where you want to be, there's no evidence of this happening from other countries that are in a situation that's similar. I don't really think it's an issue. I think the important thing is to get people here in the first place and that's the challenge of having an immigration system in place that works. I think that emphasis on integration in the community, which includes obviously education that you've mentioned about housing, is available on an equal basis and it's well funded. There is some evidence to suggest that the things that make people feel at home, make people feel part of the community, make it more likely that people will integrate and therefore those are the factors that are important as well. In relation to common travel area, yes, there are similarities between the UK's immigration policy and Ireland. They've been said that they align in lots of areas but economic migration is where Ireland has in the past had a separate policy. It doesn't so much now but I think that you could say that that's more probably to do with the economic situation that finds itself in rather than the common travel area. Again, these are questions which would be good if they could be aired at the kind of governmental level so I agree with what Mr Coffey has said about the Home Office view on that being good to hear that. We do have the minister, Humza Yousaf, coming along at the end of these, we're often inquiries to answer all of these questions so we'll save them all up for him. Alison, did you work back in on that point? Yes, and it's related to this broader discussion of economic migration and I think it's quite tempting, as Professor Wright has been saying, to see migrants as plug in play. They come as economic and they stay economic and you plug them in and they do economic stuff and then you pull them out and they go back home. Of course, human beings are messy, complicated creatures, they fall in love, they bring families over to visit them as tourists, they have other people coming along in their family who may look after their children so all kinds of different things happen which are actually part of a, if you like, a social economic contribution but which don't get in many of these debates and I do think there's a danger in simplifying discussions of economic migration and actually not looking at the social effects and this also relates to the student body that we were discussing earlier and the migration of students and really to endorse everything my colleague has said and also to say that the present policy that we have in the UK is diminishing the quality of our education because we are missing out on perspectives that are absolutely vital that we need to think with from other parts of the world and those who are being educated in our universities are missing out on the opportunity to develop absolutely vital intercultural abilities and skills and connections that will serve them well in future and that then plays out and has also these economic dimensions you know any graduation at any university will see many international students graduating and we'll see their parents coming over and spending time possibly several weeks on holiday in Scotland so you can't divorce these questions from each other they do need a holistic approach when we're looking at them so when we ask questions of economic migration there are questions of family there are questions of tourism there are questions of social effects that needs to be brought in okay we're in the final few minutes i don't know if anybody has got anything to add to what we've talked about this morning that we've maybe missed or i certainly think that the conversations the contributions this morning have given us maybe a focus on the questions that we will have for the minister to clarify and maybe expand a bit on as i think robert said the devil's in the detail maybe that's where we have to go with the minister but if there's anything that anybody's itching to say and they've not had a chance to say it then now's your chance happy we would be delighted if you go away and you think i should have said that or i should have informed them of this please continue to send us that information because it really helps to inform our our committee it's been a very positive experience i think this morning i think it's sometimes difficult to have this type of debate in the backdrop of as robert also said the the daily mail quite type of debate that goes on and it has been very gratifying i think for all of us this morning and we thank you as a committee to have that type of conversation and are very civilised and humane we thank you very much i'm going to suspend committee for 10 minutes to allow for a comfort break and for changing over to the next topic okay welcome back to the european extended relations committee agenda item 2 is to consider the committee's annual report and the annual report draft is included in your papers the white one if anybody's got any comments the annual report is really just a reflection of the work that we've done in the past year and some of the topics that we've focused on and how many meetings and things we've had so if there's any comments or questions clarifications welly it's really very good it's a brief summary of the work that we've done it's really appreciated the clerks have put that together i could only suggest maybe we add in some of the links to the reports that we've produced and make them available either in the online version of this or in the paper to the committee reports that we've produced include any of the press releases or informationy stuff that we've released we add it in you see for information would press release be in the annual report? no we wouldn't put it at actual release we just put reference to the ones we've done because that's something the committee has done unless we're not happy with the press release there's a certain format that it has to cover we couldn't do the press releases part of it because they're not on the website so we just cover what we've done in the committee perhaps there should be maybe we can take it on board for the future i don't want to make life difficult for people but i think if we do things then let's talk about it let's share it any other points no are we agreeing to take it on board for future chair i think that's something maybe we need to discuss procedurally here that's right thank you rod happy i'm very happy and like to thank the parking team for their work on it okay happy to agree the annual report thank you very much we now move into private session