 Welcome to Cooper Union, what's happening with human rights around the world on Think Tech Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii, Moana, Nuiakea. I'm your host, Joshua Cooper. And today we're looking at the U.N. human rights council agenda, looking at genocide and other major gross human rights violations raised. I'm so honored to be joined by the amazing advocacy manager, as well as the president of the World Uyghur Congress. Sumerate, thank you so much for joining. And we know the reason that the world is talking all about the Uyghur situation is been because when the High Commission for Human Rights, Michelle Bachelet ended her term, we hear it's 13 minutes until midnight that the report that has been long waited actually was released. What was it like being in Geneva when that report was released? And what has been happening since? I will tell you one thing. It was extremely stressful and exhausting because everyone was waiting for this report to be published. And let me tell you that we waited one year for this report. And knowing that it was published only a couple of minutes before midnight, we were all in bed waiting for the report to be released and then reading it and just making assessment of the report. But I think there was a huge sense of relief from especially our community, the victims because we ended up thinking that this report actually might never be published because of the pressure that was exerted by the Chinese government on the High Commissioner. So I think it was mixed emotions but I think it was a huge sense of relief at the end. And it was important because the United Nation confirmed conclusive evidence of gross systemic violations and atrocities committed by China. Also the Offside High Commissioner for Human Rights Report released reinforced the documentation and demands of major human rights NGOs, as well as Uyghur leaders. Maybe you could share with us what some of the highlights were and then we'll go to Dolcan for him to share some of the important parts that he noted as well. I think the highlights of the report is really what really brought my, I guess, caught my attention was that the report really uses China's own policies and also laws to make an assessment of the current human rights violations and the different abuses that are happening in East Turkistan or the Uyghur region as some people refer to it. I think that's really important because this is something that the Chinese government has tried to basically deny, deny all across the board on all of the abuses and allegations that were raised by multiple governments but also the wider international community scholars, press and also independent experts over the past few years. So I think using China's own policies, documents that really is impactful not only to basically debunk the Chinese narrative but also to of course have an independent or I guess an unbiased approach to this. So I think the report really heavily refers to the counter-terrorism law, the regulations on the examifications and also China's white papers on For Saber, for example or even the VTCs, the Vocational Educational Training Centers. So I think in this way, it really gives a broad understanding of what's really happening and how the Chinese government is trying to basically legitimize these abuses by basically saying that they're attacking counter-terrorism, they're attacking terrorism or they're tackling this issue of terrorism with laws. And so I think that was really relevant in the report. And the other thing is also looking at you know the different aspects of this crisis and also looking at how it's impacting the diaspora community. I thought that was extremely important because of course the Uyghurs living in the diaspora community they're also experiencing the consequences of this ongoing genocide, which of course we're talking about transnational repression, harassment, intimidation of Uyghurs living outside but also the family separation which was a good emphasis in the report because of course Uyghurs living in the diaspora, we also have our right to family life and by separating us from our family members that's also an infringement on our right to normal family life. So I think that was really useful in the report. Oh, thank you. And despite the Chinese government's strenuous denials you unofficially recognize the horrific crimes are occurring. And we know this was significant in many ways. Tolkien, what stood out for you when the report finally came out is we know you've been targeted in many ways and have endured many situations along the lines of what Sumitri is saying about being diaspora but of course being connected with your family and community back home. Well, thank you for having us. And actually this report from all sides is not good enough to explain this to Cheyenne because we have a lot of Vietnamese camp survivor and they make testimony and several side events in the United Nations and also several of national parliament and European parliament. So far, nine parliament recognize Uyghur genocide motion. European parliament just June also made a resolution and Chinese governments commit against Uyghur is the high risk of genocide and crime against humanity. Particularly and the Uyghur tribunal independent Uyghur people's tribunal within 18 months collected 100,000 page document more than 500 people's testimony, three hearing taking place in London then finally last December 9th Uyghur tribunal make judgment Chinese government atrocity against Uyghur genocide and crime against humanity. So many in the legal expert and research institute leaked document or last last document of Xinjiang police file and New York. This is a show very clearly and what's going on for the Uyghur as ongoing genocide. So that's why this report and this is not really good enough for describe the ongoing genocide and for the Uyghur today in the Sturkey state. But however, as a zoom that I say it's very significant because Chinese government trying to block these issues as reports is the money most is this report as we know as this finalized last year, September, you know? So is the up to one years later as this report and finally just a certain months before but they're left from her office then is the issue. So behind the offices, maybe some other reason but we know one most of some reason is the Chinese government blocked mobilize more than 60 countries, the last female council section make pressure to the high commissioner office don't issue this report. So however, this report is significant for us at least know there is no excuse any country continue silence because in the past, you know, some country is saying and oh, this is the Western Correspondency or this is the CIA game something like that but no is a high commissioner office independent UN independent expert, special reporter and all in the provide information to the high commissioner office. No, this is the independent this is UN bodies reports that's why we believe it is a time that the United Nations as a member state should do something take action. This reason and the viability is very significant. It's a really good review because you remind me that since the review by the UN committee on the elimination of racial discrimination served in August 2018 when we were both here that was the first time that the 18 members registered alarm at reports of mass detention. Really those UN experts indicated deep concerns over the deteriorating human rights situation in China and that was crucial to really then launch all the other work that you shared with us. Since then UN experts have issued 83 communications and 27 press releases. So all that important work really did begin with that served review. And as you said, you've been working so diligently to work with the various parliaments on a national level, but also regional bodies. What is quite exciting as well is looking at where we are today. When we look at where we are today we actually see of course that it is in some ways the end the report released marks the end of the OHCHRI commission for human rights, Michelle Bachelet but the dawn of the human rights council session in September. We know the session just began yesterday. What are some of the goals that you're thinking about that you think would be important to build on this important report and what we could focus on in the upcoming 51st session of the human rights council here in Geneva, Sumirete. Yeah, I think, you know, as you said this was this kind of marks the end because every time that we went to states or different actors, one of the common answers we would get for the lack of action, you know from their side was that they were waiting for this report by the UN High Commissioner's office to, you know, to start something at the council. So I think now that we have the report all member states and other, you know UN bodies and also other actors don't have any more excuses left to keep delaying tangible actions. So I think what we would expect is at least an urgent debate at the council because China, as you said there's been 83 communications since, you know, cert. I mean, this is the state which comes up the most at the council. We've, you know, we've seen these communications and usually I would say that in average a state has maybe 10 communications every few years. So I think it's significant and it tells you that urgent action is needed on a country like China at the council. So I think what we expect is at least an urgent debate a resolution to start thinking about, you know accountability mechanisms because victims and survivors have been waiting for this kind of, you know accountability and justice for long enough. And I think it's important to emphasize that we're still going through this genocide we're still living these atrocities at this moment. So I think states also have this obligation to prevent a further, you know, exacerbation of the situation. So I think these are some of the things that we immediately expect. And of course, in the longterm we also want other bodies to also intervene for example, the genocide prevention office the international labor's organization. So I think there are many ways to tackle this issue at the UN. No, it's really good to bring up not only the human rights council but all the UN specialized agencies, programs and funds and some of the other instruments that you've been sharing. And at the opening of the human rights council Uighurs we see and civil society are calling on the international human rights organization and governments to take immediate action to stop the ongoing genocide. And this call for an urgent debate as well as maybe the aim of establishing a commission of inquiry on China is absolutely crucial. Ok, what will you be doing and what should we expect in this human rights council session that began yesterday? Well, this human 51 section is very important section for particular for us because just a few weeks before, just two weeks before new section start in this report with issue new high commissioners starting this section. So this ongoing genocide or the term for the high commissioners report is the high risk for the crime against humanity already starting is six years before since 2017 to 2016 starting. So far quite a lot of countries arises issue to the human rights council section and the special reporters and the independent expert mechanism already repeatedly issues this but so far no single urgent section was taken place. You know, no single resolution was the past from our council or general assembly from the United Nations. So that's why we expected it is a time no is a high commissioner report is published. There is I already said there's no excuse anymore. That's why no, it is a time this section should be taken place and urgent section on the issue. And also UN should be set up a mechanism protects us we were in the diaspora because we were refugees crisis one of the most important cries. No, it is we were not safe, you know, China long I'm getting everywhere I'm one of some victim of this. So that's why it should be United Nations and the UN United Nations Refugee High Commissioner or some other international body should be and set up some protection mechanism or system for the refugees because no is the we was not safe not only Uighur has been persecuted by the China in East Turkestan homeland also is a diaspora even is a democratic country. So this is the wish by this 51 women section and not only 51 section or the whole UN body. No, it's true. It is a global game changer for the international response to the Uighur crisis. And when we look at what's possible it also noted the human rights abuses have included quote far reaching arbitrary and discriminatory strictures on human rights and fundamental freedoms and violation of international norms and standards. Also some of the other horrific aspects or patterns of torture or ill treatment as well as incidents of sexual violence. Could you maybe submit a share for people not aware of what Uighur people face in their own indigenous homeland? What is going on? And how is China conducting it? And why is it so important that the world finally recognize what is happening to people on a daily basis? So as Dukun has previously mentioned this crisis has, it didn't start yesterday it took years for the government to build the environment and do like the groundwork to establish this environment a highly repressive environment where people are monitored on a daily basis basically living in an Orwellian state where every single movement that they do is being followed and monitored with the inclusion of no with through like high technology. So of course, since 2017 we've started hearing about the camps where millions of Uighurs have been detained arbitrarily since then in these mass interming camps where today we estimate at least three millions of Uighurs and other Turkic people being interned in there and this is what the committee on the elimination of racial discrimination has stated back in 2018 during their review on China that at least a million of Uighurs were being detained against their will. And the reasons for their detention can be different but mostly the government is attacking the ethno-religious identity of the Uighur people in an attempt to assimilate them but also to eliminate any kind of expression of the unique Uighur identity. So if for example, for women who have had maybe two, three, four children that's they can be punished with internment because they did not respect the family planning policies. So a lot of the, for example, we've seen it with the Qashqar leaks. So the Qashqar, sorry, the Qashqar leaks back, I think it was two years ago when it was leaked you could see the different reasons for internment and the family policies, planning policies were among the top ones. For if Uighurs have traveled abroad in previous years especially to Muslim majority countries that's also punishable with internment. And also for men to, for example or anyone to practice religion at home or outside any kind of religious expression can be punished because these are signs of extremism. And of course children are being separated from their parents. If for example, both parents are in a camp the children most of the time are sent to a state run orphanages where they are being stripped away from their identity and culture. And this is a reminiscence of what has happened in different countries as well in their history thinking about of course the communities in Canada or Australia. And so this is a way I think that was used by many different governments but is being used right now to indoctrinate and assimilate an entire ethnic group. Of course women are also living extremely harsh conditions extremely harsh conditions. For example, women are being forcibly sterilized by the government, by the local authorities against their will. They're also living through sexual violence inside the camps. For example, we've heard and seen a lot of survivors from these camps who have recounted their experiences many times. And we're actually here with a survivor who will be speaking at the UN site event tomorrow about her own experience as a teacher in a concentration camp for over a year. And the horrible things that she's witnessed including the sexual violence from the female detainees and also the harassment and the other forms of repression to torture inside the camps. But I think the conditions inside the camps are horrible but even outside there's this atmosphere of fear where people just live in a constant anxiety and fear. So that doesn't leave any space for any kind of expression at all. Our culture and including our language has been targeted by government where for example, cemeteries, thousands of mosques and shrines all of these cultural and religious sites have been destroyed on mass in the past few years. And you can see this as in evidence from satellite imagery and different analysis and research. Also our cultural elite has disappeared because they've all been sent to camps or disappeared over the years. And this is a method that is used by the government because knowing that if you target the cultural elite you are basically eliminating a group in a society that has a lot of influence over the rest. So by targeting them you're eliminating or you're contributing to the elimination of the religious and the cultural transmission as well. So I think that has deep impacts and consequences for the future generations to come which is actually a criteria that the Uyghur tribunal that was mentioned previously has also taken into account. So put it simply that Uyghur people are living through a genocide and crimes against humanity. So it is highly time to intervene. No, and you really when you mention it you then describe the totality of this state of the focus to try to crush the soul and to really eliminate from the earth a group of people who are very peaceful. And when you think about it and you described it from the situation inside the camp which China denied ever existing until the third report was able to sort of crack that lie. And I remember Tolkien sharing with me as well how if you were a family you would have a Chinese soldier move in with you and live with you to be able to monitor and watch. So the way this totalitarian state would be able to watch and make sure that they controlled all aspects especially with the technology. It's really alarming. Tolkien, what are some of the other aspects that people must be aware of regarding the human rights situation of Uyghurs? Well, as you say, this is the China then we can say the Chinese government already turned and this to extent is an open earth prison. You know, not most of some people talking about just is a concentration camp in the but is the solution is outside the concentration camp and the daily life of the people also suffer a lot. They are also not feeling free, you know and no one is feeling free and not security. Maybe anytime, maybe next to us, next to day just the police knocks the door, take him to the police station or the jail or the concentration camp. You don't know what is the reason, you know you cannot ask what is the reason anytime, any place and you will be faced a persecution. So lasted five, six years and we have completely lost the communication, you know also Uyghur diaspora living in exile we cannot contact the family, I personally I very last very short telephone communication my parent is my family's middle of April, 2017 is already the five years only something was happening at home some sad story or some horrible news found us view some way last five years I got several, several only got several and the horrible news for example my mother died concentration camp, you know after 2018, June my mother died I got this first sad news my mother passed away later I learned from the media she died one of the concentration camp she was 78 years old sometime she was staying more than one years because of the concentration camp 2020 I learned from Chinese media my father passed away what kind of circumstances he passed away I have no, still no idea because I couldn't access you know and even I have no idea where his cemetery is my two brothers sentenced my younger brothers sentenced to life my older brothers sentenced some say 17 years sometime 24 years but we don't know this is how many family members still alive how many family members in the concentration camp how many is already died I have no idea my case is not unique and you know most of the time we were living in the western country under in the obroad same situation is not good enough you know and the Chinese government not only the persecutions of people and use today's digital technology digital control everything facial recognition and the voice recognition this technology testing for the Uyghurs 2017, 2018 today Chinese government after testing this use and export and the other province of China know it is that export also some other country even some European country also use this is Chinese technology control it is citizen some authoritarian country use the Chinese this system besides the Chinese government not only use the advantage of the technology but also use the in-person plastic way to monitor the Uyghur family 2008 more than one million Chinese Communist Party member to send the Uyghur family staying with you together 24 hours you know monitoring you what do you eat what did you eat what do you feeling you know what kind of your activism in person monitoring you and staying on the same bed even you know so many rape cases was happening because most of the men at home is a concentration camp mostly women you cannot reject it you cannot stay here I don't want to stay with you if you say you are terrorists you are radicalism so this is the that kind of and the institution and what's happening even today also same institution in East Turkistan thank you for sharing I mean the stories that you share most people would not be able to cope and to continue in your bravery as well as your vision of a better world is is so important we thank you for the work that you do and when you describe what people are facing on a daily basis and how complete the communist regime is doing its best to destroy people it then makes these reports almost not seem to be enough of course the report that was written though it did recommend for the Chinese government to take steps to release arbitrarily detained to clarify the whereabouts of detained family members such as the situations you shared cease the intimidation and reprisals in connection with their advocacy cooperate as well that's what they shared about the ILO committee of expert recommendations and then to provide adequate remedy and reparation to victims of human rights abuses and we hear what has happened almost nothing can be done but the bravery you're showing to say those words that came out of San Francisco of never again this new end charter in a way you're holding humanity to say what will we do because if it happens to the Uyghurs it can happen to anyone so we thank both of you very much for joining us today we know you'll be having a side event tomorrow with the human rights watch and many of the main human rights advocacy organizations from around the world and we do wish you're your best and maybe you could share some of the things you'll be doing in the next couple of weeks I know you'll be focusing urgent debate on resolution for a commission of inquiry and how you think that might come about Tsunete Yes, so as you said we have a few events planned for this session we have a side event tomorrow we have another press conference next week we will be taking part in different side events organized by different organizations and we're organizing too as well so I think what we're really trying to do is that to push for tangible action because we cannot just expect statements join statements from states which is of course great it is valuable but at the same time we need tangible action to hold the perpetrators to account because as you said we need, we cannot set a precedent that authoritarian countries will do what they want without being held accountable for their crimes so I think this is definitely a message that we will be spreading around and in our conversations with diplomats and civil society actors and many others and I think victims and survivors deserve this it's been long enough and it's more urgent than ever of course we will be also teaming up and joining forces with other activists from other movements as well because of course China is not only perpetrating atrocities against oil wars but also different other people as well so I think coming together in a unified voice to make sure that there's some sort of mechanism that is created by the council on China will be extremely important and this is our mission this time No, it's very important that the council shows China as there's consequences for the callous actions and also to operationalize many of those articles of the report to make a difference as you said and have an impact in individual lives of the Uyghur people that have faced too many harms for too long Doken, any final words for the Human Rights 51st Session? Well, yes, we already explained that this section is very important for us because just in your report was published so now it's the countries and all country already signed is a 48 convention on genocide and crime against humanity. So it is a time to act all the country have a legal obligation to stop ongoing crime against humanity, ongoing genocide for the Uyghurs and also all human being have a legal obligation to stand this Uyghur and all human being have a legal obligation and a moral obligation to stop ongoing genocide and help Uyghurs support the Uyghurs. Thank you both for taking time out of very busy schedules and sharing your stories of what's going on related to social justice in East Turkestan and we look forward to hear the next actions that you take to make a difference for your people. Mahalo.