 All right. Thank you, everyone. I know everyone online is is ready to go so I'm just going to see if I can make meaningful eye contact with everybody in the room here. I don't like to interrupt discussions but we are going to have a lot of discussion in this session so I just wanted to say hi. My name is Dr Ali Jacque. I'm the director of support for learning here at Uni SQ and I've led student partnership work across several universities and I always feel that I'm in the room with friends when I'm with the people who really care about partnership work. Before I go on, I would also like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we are meeting today and pay my respects to elders past and present. It's important to recognize that these have always been lands of learning and teaching long before our campuses were built and I believe in a First Nations voice to Parliament and I think this is a time for listening and for empathy and I'd like to thank Lucy for her beautiful keynote. And Simon and I have talked about that we want to make sure that we we weave the the deep thinking that Lucy has encouraged us to do into this session as well. Now it is my great pleasure to introduce Simon Vawell who is joining us online from Scotland. Simon is senior development consultant with Sparks. Scotland's national agency for student engagement where he is the lead for institutional support and staff development. Now I'm just double checking we're going to get the zoom room on the screen so everyone can see everyone who's online we're doing a hybrid session oh there we are. So, and I I'm not going to lie hybrid is is not the easiest way to work but I don't mind a little bit of messiness and I think everyone in the room here today will come along on the ride with us so to continue the introduction because Simon really is the brains of this operation here today. He's a graduate of University of Winchester's Masters in Student Engagement, and there's a principal fellow of the Higher Education Academy and the author of various articles and chapters on models of partnership. And I'm sure Simon won't mind me saying that his article his 2021 article on the visual models for exploring partnership is actually one of the most useful papers that I've ever read I recommend it to people who are new to this space or those of us who've been working in the space for a while who want a new perspective so Simon is going to set the scene for us today and then we're going to get into some deeper discussion about our values, knowledges and activities that underpin our roles as practitioners. So I'm hoping that seamlessly I can say the words over to you Simon and he will be we will hear him. Thank you very much indeed. Yes, I hope you can hear me in turn. Can you hear me. No, can anyone. Are you hearing me. That's good. Okay, are you hearing me in the room alley. You are. Okay. Excellent. Thank you very much. Okay. And so it's great to be with you all. It's great to be with you all the theme of quiet voices as a very appropriate one. My nine year old daughter is asleep in the next room so I've got to make sure that my voice is especially quiet, but I don't want it to be too quiet but I can sort of actually hear you all as well so do you give me a shout verbally or in the chat box if it transpires that actually you can't hear me very well but I'm just moving the chat box to be somewhere visible on my screen so that I can see that. So, yes, I've really enjoyed working with Ali thinking through this session and getting an insight into some of the work that you've been building up to for this day and I'll explain a little bit more about sparks and a little but we are effectively the SVA for Scotland and we've done a lot of work with SVA over the years with the various coordinators and hosts that they've been and we've often joined events remotely and sometimes in person as well we've had the privilege of working with people in person and indeed met Lucy when she was over in Scotland on a research trip some time ago. So anyway, let me plunge in. So we're going to be talking about our professional standards framework for student engagement as a way of helping you as practitioners to think about your role. And for many of you it might be worth, you know, those of you access to the chat box it might be worth banging in your job title in the chat box so just so I get a sense of what kind of rules are in the room because not everyone I think in the world of student engagement has a job that is very easy to explain to people internally let alone externally. And so what I'd like you to think about is that question what do you do for a living. How do you explain as a practitioner of student engagement and what your job is, especially to someone who doesn't work in education. So imagine you're outside work you're doing whatever you do in your in your personal life you might be, you know, in a meeting a random stranger out walking the dog or you might meet a random stranger and in a pub or a coffee shop, or in the queue for the bus or whatever else you do for fun. And you get talking and you're talking about the weather. Well, maybe that's just a British thing I don't know if Aussies Aussies and Kiwis also obsessed about the weather constantly. And but whatever you whatever you fancy talking about tomorrow's vote whatever it out whatever else it is. And then that question comes up. What do you do for a living. How do you answer that question because I absolutely hate it. I have a really weird job in an organization that's hard to explain. So, and how do you explain, especially if you have student engagement in your role how do you explain that to a lay person about whom you cannot assume anything about education. So again if you have access to the chat box, bung that down. How would you explain in one sentence one snappy sentence, what you do for a living. I sometimes wish I was a joiner or a nurse or a bus driver or one of these, one of these jobs that passes the lift up flat books test that you would give to a toddler, you know, a farmer, all these sorts of things. So, and, yeah, good point, Benjamin you've given up trying to explain to people what I do even the family. Yeah, some people think I'm a spy and actually quite like that idea. But anyway, so have a wrestle with that. And those of you in the room not in the chat box, you know, just discuss with your neighbor scribble it down on your note and show it to your neighbor. How do you explain your job, and without going into too much detail. Let me set the scene and tell you a little bit about sparks. So our full name is student partnerships and equality Scotland sparks to our friends, possibly our enemies as well but we don't seem to have too many of them thankfully because lots of people say nice things about what we do. We are funded by our national strategic body the Scottish funding council to basically do what our name suggests to build student partnerships and quality to build the learning experience around the views of staff and students working together. So we work across Scotland we have a team of eight plus a larger team of student trainers, and we work with the, oh, let me see, you know, about 4043 or 44 institutions universities and colleges so across higher education and further education. And we work with all our national agencies we do various bits of international consultancy work and so sometimes if we struggle to explain ourselves we'll use this slide. I love what you say I teach and I love it's what an absolutely great way of you know that should be a T shirt shouldn't it and I engage students and I love it so I get that commission. And so yes that's just a little bit about sparks we work very closely with with Anna and Ally and many others across the SVA team. There's a little bit more context about what we mean by student engagement and how we built it. 20 years ago we put student engagement in our quality enhancement framework, and as one of the five key pillars in our university sector you can see all of the different pillars of student engagement is one of them so you, it was based on the idea that you cannot create or shape or enhance quality without listening to the views of students and working in partnership with them. And so that has led to everything from close relationships between institutions and students associations through to students being on review panels and students playing a key role in the national level. And another thing that helps sets the scene for for what we do and what we are in Scotland is about a decade ago we created the student engagement framework for Scotland, realizing that the phrase student engagement meant, meant multiple things to multiple people. And so we decided to capitalize on that diversity of thought and bring it all together into this framework. And what you can see here in the circle is five things that you can engage students in and right at the heart of it it's students feeling that supportive institution and students engaging in their own learning so that's the core kind of engagements and wrapping around that are the three areas that underpin sparks as work so students shaping their learning and the formal mechanisms for quality and governance. And then the national level decisions so those are the five kind of areas in which we engage students and around that we have the six features of student engagement. And so whatever the engagement you do and wherever you do it and to whom you do it. So the six features should be present and obviously we're thinking an awful lot about responding to diversity today in terms of the topic of the quiet voices, and what a hugely important time at least in Australia it is for thinking about quiet voices and who they are and how they can be best engaged in shaping the world around them. So that we've highlighted on this diagram of the focus on enhancement and change, because if you know if you're engaging students and nothing's changing then what's the point of engaging them. And the other one is students as partners this idea of shifting a power dynamic and it was great that Lucy was talking so powerfully about power earlier on in her keynote. And so really you need that big shift in power dynamic to truly make students partners. And you see these slides later on the images throughout my presentation are links to the relevant documents so you can you can get these slides later and click them, and they will take you to the relevant parts of the, you know, our website or other parts of the Scottish sector. And then we're practically about what this means for what we do, and we develop student engagement I suppose in three ways we support the policies for student engagement so institutions in Scotland will often have something like a strategy for student engagement or a student partnership agreement or something something perhaps in other documents, for example, learning and teaching strategy the institutional strategy that sets out what student engagement is, and what you're aspiring to do with it and how you're going to build partnership between staff and students. And of course there'll be much else written in other documents such as your quality enhancement plans. And these will all be the effectively the policies and the papers that set out what student engagement is. And so a big part of our work is supporting these conversations about building these strategies. The second aspect is that of place. And this is really about the kind of the elements of the bureaucracy or the decision making where partnership and engagement resides. So have a think about your organization or your students association or university or college. And where is it that student partnership sits, who is it, or what's the body the gathering of people that actually decides all of these things and decides what student engagement is. So, typically in Scotland you'll find there'll be some kind of shared committee quite often co chaired by a student lead and a staff lead. And that will basically be a place for bringing together all the right people across the staff and students structures to meet together and monitor and enhance and shape that partnership. And for the purposes of today's session, and it's also important to think about the people. So a big aspect of our job is to shape the people who do student engagement. And, primarily, in sparks we work with our students association staff who might have a job type title like something like you know engagement coordinator or representation coordinator, and the elected student officers who might be, for example, a vice president education within the students union or students association, but they're also a whole host of other people who you might call student engagement practitioners. In quality teams and student engagement teams, student experience teams right across the gamut of university services. And actually, if you want to think of student engagement, not as a silo but as something that everything care, everything connects to perhaps you can argue that all staff have an element of student engagement within their roles we all in our many academic and non academic roles support students, and just like we all arguably have a responsibility for health and safety in our in our workplaces we all arguably have a responsibility for, for well being, or for equality and diversity so do we similarly, all have responsibility for student engagement. Let me know in the chat box and give me your thoughts on that. As we've thought through and how we support the student engagement practitioners. We've often thought about the difficulties, as I alluded to and as you've at some of you have alluded to in the chat box about how to explain your job clearly and concisely, and we have developed and this is our theme for further this morning session, a professional standards framework for student engagement. What you can see here, and I'm just about to post a link to it in the chat box as well. And what you can see here are basically three things we have a set of values, we have a set of knowledge, and we have a set of activities. We used our student engagement staff network that we support in sparks to describe what they thought with the values knowledge and activities underpinning their jobs. And then we got a bunch of willing volunteers from that network to harmonize them into this framework that you see here and can see online. And so the link is in the chat box if you're not on the chat box, or if you're not in the zoom link and go to the sparks website, and then look at the menu bar at the bottom of our, of our website sparks dot AC dot UK sparks with a Q dot AC dot UK. And then go down to the bottom, and there's a, there's a menu, and, or a site map at the bottom, and you'll find their professional standards framework for student engagement. And so what this does is set out all these different values knowledge and activities underpinning the work that student engagement practitioners does. And perhaps it helps them answer that difficult question they might have a bus stop as well, and or in the pub or whatever about what they do. So this is a little bit about our framework. And as you look at this it might be worth thinking about, you know, how much of this you recognize and how much of this relates to your job. And, but it's important obviously this is this document has come out of Scottish practice so I'm handing back to Ali at this point to think to help us think through how this might kind of relate to Australian context so and those are just some initial things that will get stuck into this framework in a little minute, but over to you Ali for a second. Thanks so much Simon. That's wonderful. And everyone in the room here today has I'm, I'm very I've got a gen X version of the online link I just, I printed this out for everybody so that they could have a copy of it so that we can, we can look at these, these professional standards. I think those of us in the room and online might be familiar with a framework like this from Advanced HG or the Higher Education Academy's professional standards so online and in the room. Could I just see your hands if you're aware of the HGA professional standards you might be a fellow or an associate fellow or a principal fellow such as Simon. So, I think what's really interesting about that, and I'm keen to hear as we go into the discussion later from anyone in New Zealand context that might have their own framework or knowledge of these frameworks. I know in my process of applying for Senior Fellow, a lot of my fellowship did focus on student partnership and the ways in which I enact student engagement along the lines of their, their values and and knowledges. But this actually really creates a lens that allows us to drill much deeper into that work. So what I know from looking at all of you in the room and online and seeing where, where you all come from and where you work and thank you to everybody. Oh, sorry. Can I be louder? Sorry. Sorry, Cynthia. Can, can everyone hear me okay online? Yeah, great. Thanks Lisa. I can see you. Um, so I think one of the things that this adds to our, our specific roles. So some of our roles, we work in projects with students. I can see some of us lead this work. Some of us have our entire jobs in the student partnership or student engagement space working hand in hand with students, and some do this in various different ways. So I think however you view your job, I think it's really useful for us to drill down into this part of our work today and to really think about how a framework like this helps us in our identities as practitioners and helps us to speak about the roles that we have. So I don't want to steal too much time with the talking. I would rather you guys get to speak in your groups and in the, in the group that Simon is going to facilitate online. So what we're going to do now is so that we can have the best conversations where we are in the places that we are. Simon is going to facilitate conversation online. And I'm going to facilitate conversation in the room or group work in the room. And we'd like it to start with you looking at those, those values. And I'm just looking for Simon to nod to say, yep, this is what we agreed was going to happen yet. Um, look at those values. So for one or two minutes, I want you to just quietly have a look at those and note down where you feel they align with your practice. And then we're going to separate the rooms and in 10 minutes, we're going to come back together and share. Now we've created a mirror board for the group work. So I'm going to post a link for that into the zoom chat. And I'm going to facilitate that here. So in 10 minutes, so we're going to cut the rooms and then 10 minutes we'll come back and we'll talk about the discussion that we've had. Is that okay, Simon? That sounds okay from your end. All right, let's do it. So what you can see on this slide, I've just got the suggestion that you might like to go over the standards framework with a patent pen or whatever, using a tick to indicate what you think that you are working on. Or it does exemplify in your work and a question mark for where you're not sure, and an X for where you're, you're less sure or you don't think that you could demonstrate this. And I'd like you to think about these questions here once you get into the mirror board after you've done that reflection and chat with your chat with your colleagues on the table next to you and those of us in the chat box can be a group as well. And what do you think might be the strengths or opportunities for development out of the commonalities that you have? Are you all ticking the same thing for the same indicators? And what might that mean for you as an individual? What might that mean for your organization or sectorally, nationally? So those of us in the chat box can maybe take some time to think and then we'll have a matter shortly once you've done some mapping. Anyone here in the Zoom land want to kick off with any of their early reflections on this? Anyone got any thoughts? I've just had to pop up to say that my sound quality isn't brilliant. Are people hearing me okay? I'm Alan Kate on the screen. I've got a Kate, thumbs up from Kate. Two thumbs up. So that'll do for me. Great. Thank you. So yes, any early reflections on the framework and your mapping against it? Well, as yours, you look at me to fire away in audio or I know there's a lot of us so maybe the chat box might be easier just to let me know what you think. Hard to see where there isn't an opportunity for development, Kate. So yeah, very good points. Yeah, so it's something of an inexact science but I suppose if you were to demonstrate your competence on one of the indicators, would it be easy to find some stuff to talk about? I suppose there's another way of thinking about it. Yeah, and a good point from Anja. We need to recognise and reward student engagement with things like scholarships. Yes. Interestingly, we're now having some conversations in Scotland about how we might use this framework for student staff roles, not necessarily for student rep roles, but where students are getting involved in projects, for example, within student experience teams or quality teams. So yeah, and using this framework to recognise what people have and what they can do is certainly very valuable, I think. So yeah, if you could think of uses for this framework to help recognise where people are getting involved in things and that would be great too. Any other thoughts? I can see the Miro board starting to get quite busy and so people are posting things in their groups on the tables in the room in Springfield. So I don't know if we think there's some common themes in there if you want to post in your private thoughts far away. Yeah, very happy to get more thoughts and reflections in the chat box here. Thank you, and the university needs to also see students more as partners and lose the power and balance of you like lecture and student. Okay, so what does that mean for the professional attributes and competences of the person who might contribute to that shift in culture? Is this something for those in leadership roles? Is this something that student engagement coordinators and people at the grassroots and people working with students on a day-to-day basis can shift? And Lee, good point about physical spaces. Yes, absolutely. I mean, here we all are in an electronic space, but yeah, what are those physical spaces look like? I'm fascinated by the dynamics of rooms and where people sit and what it means for kind of who's important and who can be heard and who's spotted by chairs. We often say to student reps, you know, sit next to the chair or sit opposite them so that they can, when you're in a meeting, you can be seen and heard. And also, there's a lot of interesting dynamics about how we use the physical space. For example, if you're meeting with students, are you bringing them into a classroom environment? If you're consulting with people, are you bringing them into a boardroom, which is a formal space? And actually, if the students were to decide where the engagement happens, what does that look like? And what does that mean for the professional competences of the people who would help make that happen? Thank you, Lauren. Yeah, yeah, doing work is one thing, can be hugely rewarding, but getting that back to the decision makers is another. So partly that's about the communication, partly that's about the skill that you would have as a practitioner to be able to tell those in positions of influence what's happening and what they might need to do. But I suppose then beyond that, there's a third step of actually turning that into action. So how do you, yeah, if you're not in a managing position, how do you grab management by the by the scruff of the neck and say, right, this is what the students are asking for, how are we going to do that? And students can sometimes get away with that more than staff can. Kate, yeah, so great meeting people who understand this work. When we get our student engagement staff network together. People enjoy the fact that they're in a room of people who understand what they do, and they might spend the rest of their lives, even with their close colleagues, not being fully understood. So, yeah, so it's so you're a practitioner network in SVA is hugely important and and yeah, it would be lovely to kind of learn more about what that achieves and what you're able to do with that space. Simon, the system yellow, I just wanted to say a big thank you it's just such a joy to listen to you and everything that I've read that you've done. It's I'm from the University of Adelaide and we have a lot of amazing people who are really keen and interested in this space and care about our students and it's just just to echo what everyone in here said it's. It's the framework that I think that we lack at the moment, and we're about to merge with another big university so I see this as a huge opportunity to really start something amazing from scratch and and we refer to your resources constantly and so I just want to say a big thank you. And what a wonderful meeting it is today. Anyway, so you've just made my day. Thank you, Daniel, that was very kind of you and. Yeah, do let us know how you use our resources and what you make out of them that's not like kind of paranoia or how dare you use our stuff it's we're genuinely fascinated in what you what you what you make of it if you, you know take our things and adapt them and do something fun with them. There's impacts you can share case studies you can develop and then we'd love to know. And because sometimes when you put stuff out there online you don't always know what happens to it so if you're doing stuff with it then thank you very much. And interestingly, actually through SVA and I think through through Kate's work that I got that we got introduced to your institution so currently we're just learning. We haven't actually done a lot of application. But yes, we'll be keeping you updated. Great. Yeah, do drop me an email to keep in touch. And your point about merges is interesting. And about a decade ago our further education colleges merged and the group into regions quite a lot of the merged with their neighbors and so we moved from I think 44 colleges and we're down to 24 now. We're going to cut three of the merge just last month as well so that the journey is keeping going. And it is really interesting at that time we had huge conversations about what this meant for the values of student engagement and what it meant for students associations merges are always traumatic times that are not going to be complacent about how difficult they are, but they did present an opportunity because you could have economies of scale and students associations and we had college students associations that finally had, you know, were big enough to employ a decent staff team and a decent officer team. So some things that can come out there and it was, we did a lot of work to support those conversations about, well actually if you've got this sort of smallish students association of this smallish one, what can we do to get them together in a way that develops something and a bit more coherent and sustainable. Oh thank you. That's exactly what the conversations that we're having right now and we're hoping to because there is there is this amazing culture, as you say, in places and we're hoping to bring that together and translate it throughout our process and and make this the focus across everything that we do and really demonstrate that to our students because it's hard to get buying if students have been, you know, disappointed along the process and have invested energy and it and haven't really seen the benefits across their time with us so I'm really keen to come. I wonder if that kind of touches slightly on Benjamin's point about the significant growth in apathy and I think a lot of a lot of the apathy comes from people. And I suppose not seeing that their voices having an effect so we always do talk to people about how a student engagement practitioners, you have a vital vital work to close that feedback loop to communicate what's happened. And that, you know, can be a big part of understanding things may could be as simple as designing a survey where you say at the top, the last people who filled out the survey achieved a B and C changes. Or the last people who came to this focus group or attended this meeting made the following changes. And then that means you're more likely to take process seriously and any work on a Lisa, I hope I'm saying that correctly is there any work or research on governance and engagement. And yes, I can think of a few things out there. I'll try and think of some names before the end. But yeah, if you look up some of the articles by Alex bowls BOLS. And who's a practitioner in the sector in the UK has written a couple of articles about student engagement and governance. And I'll try and think of some other examples as well. Just looking at some of the more recent comments in the chat. Yeah, so Lisa, I think what you're doing is demonstrating that know exactly what your role is but it looks like you're demonstrating some really good examples of the proficiency and skills of a student engagement practitioner in terms of encouraging people and supporting people that sounds like quite as good of a soft kind of human kind of job, and then you're hosting meetings. So that's about making sure that the space works. So yeah, these are the kind of things where I think you can demonstrate what you what you're doing, and very effectively. Oh, Liz, and optimism, I'm always in favor of optimism. That's all good. And historic resistance to change. Well, partly I think you coming in as a fresh pair of eyes and saying how are we doing it like this. This is terrible. It can be quite powerful. And so actually people will trust a fresh perspective. And actually, we've often, I don't know if there's been something in the water in Scotland, but lots of student engagement coordinators have been changing jobs, we can get loads of new people in. And we have been using this framework and some other associated resources to get them thinking about their jobs and bring them up to speed. So I hope this is helpful for you as a new person. So much historical resistance to change. And oh yeah answers on a postcard fire away if you do have expertise on this anyone else. And, but I think it's sometimes it's about getting the institutional leaders to kind of get back to the floor and understand what's happening and listen to people. And I was there was a university in Scotland that had some industrial action. And I was speaking to one of the vice principles who had to do a nighttime shift as a security guard in halls of residences because all the whole the whole security guards were on strike. And he found it fascinating, you know, kind of dealing with kind of drunk students at three in the morning and things like that it's going to get some back to the floor, if you like. Okay, so let's just get back in one minute. And if you want to go into the Miro board and remember we've got that there you can post some thoughts. Thanks everyone. Oh, sorry, Simon I feel like I just interrupted interrupted you because I can see you. You're okay. Yeah, Ali if you don't interrupt us we'll just keep going in the chat box for the rest of the day and ruin the entire days programs or yet do interrupt. Well the wonderful thing is now we're going to come back together across the online and the on campus group so that we can share the ideas that we've been talking about because we've had great discussion online and great discussion here. And you know how I said I love mess. Well the Miro board is looking beautiful. I can see there's lots of ideas and beautiful sticky notes on there and anyone who chose the analog version that I printed out in the room if you write down your thoughts I will add them to the Miro board later so we can have that as something that is an artifact of this session. So Simon I might throw back to you now so that we can focus the lens on how this framework and the values, knowledges and activities it describes can help us in amplifying those quiet voices or help us in our practice in listening to those quieter voices. Thank you Ali. Yes. I'm currently working on a resource to accompany this framework where we'll think about different aspects of a student engagement job so there might be ones that are very academically focused on surveys or it might be about supporting skills among students or might be about rep systems, and therefore some indicators will be perhaps more important than others or might jump out more than others. And so what I'd like to do for a further reflection as we come to the end of our hour is which indicators in that framework. What do you think most relate to the practice of engaging quiet or quiet and voices. So if you're thinking about, and you're the kind of the equality and diversity and inclusion and liberation aspects of your roles. What are the indicators within the framework that you think would be most valuable for someone to have whose job is to build up those quiet voices. And so far away in the chat box and I don't know if you have a roving Mike alley if there's any suggestions in the room there in Springfield, and the people would like to suggest. I think that's a great suggestion. Anyone in the room want to point out one of those vks or a's that they think points to that that theme and that that mission we have of trying to amplify the quiet voices. Okay, over here in the room. I've got a mic here for thanks. Hello. I'm actually going to go to the last one on the list a eight acquiring sharing and applying knowledge about student engagement policy and practice. I think that if we can do that successfully students will know that there is a safe space for them to have a voice in what we do. So those students who are a bit quieter or not as used to coming forward. They know that there is a space they're available for them at the university to give their feedback in their opinion and collaborate with us. Yes, that's very important I think, and when you're engaging people who sometimes don't always find it easy to engage or the structures don't allow them to be engaged and knowledge is so important knowledge of how best to engage people knowledge of the dynamics that might be a play, but also I suppose there's the knowledge that those so called quiet voices might have themselves. And, and you know, it's the stories that people tell the experiences that they have the lives that they live, and our sources of expertise and sources of knowledge. Yeah, find a very powerful idea. And one of my favorite kind of articles that I've read was in 2005 and it was by an American called Tara, Tara Yosso, why OSS O, and it was about the cultural capital that minoritized groups have. And I'm just taking the point that, yes, minoritized groups are kind of oppressed and must be liberated and must be helped. But actually, they had they inherently have skills and experiences and talents that other people don't have. And so, you know, in the example of Hispanic populations in the USA they're much more likely to have strong familial links they're much more likely to be bilingual, they're much more likely to understand systems of oppression compared to people who aren't. People bring knowledge to this so yeah that might be an example of a eight in terms of how you pick up on the knowledge that people have about their experiences and how you can use that to shape student engagement policy. Thank you. Yeah, any other thoughts. Does someone online want to unmute and share maybe one of the values that they think aligns with this work or someone in the room, no worries. Okay, over here, I've got someone who's waiting for the microphone. Hi, I'm Martin here from ACU. I'm just looking at A6 just as an interesting point and I think I recently heard the phrase feeling like a data pinata. So the fatigue that comes with being constantly harried for for details information and feedback, but also the frustration that comes from not seeing any change off the back of that. And it feeling like work without without necessarily feeling like there's payoff. So I think the idea of enabling the generation of data is one thing that the use of that data. And I think thinking about accountability and indicators, you know what are we doing to kind of track the use of that data meaningfully to kind of evidence that we are we are doing so meaningfully. So we can help students feel like that their input through those data channels is having an impact and they have a role in assessing that and having a voice around how that's used. Also being mindful of the thresholds of again patients and fatigue around what we ask for, you know, no, no, no request for data without a proper purpose, I think is something that we could think carefully about to agree more Martin I think I think there's a case for doing a life cycle of the year in terms of feedback and data gathering points and getting students particularly you know if you grab the quiet voices and say well actually, are we asking the right questions at the right time in the right way, you know we've got too many surveys clustered at that point of the year so that so that ought to be rationalized. Are we asking in the wrong ways at all. Is it, you know, maybe people are fed up of filling out surveys but they'd be very happy to chat over a coffee with someone, or they'd be very happy to kind of send a text or scribble something on a graffiti wall so actually, can you get quiet voices to help you find the best way of giving voices and fabulous book chapter by someone. And Cassie Low came out earlier this year, and it's about, and sorry my mind's gone blank. The hard to reach university. So it's good coming back to this idea of the hard to reach students and actually the hard to reach student is a bizarre concept because the student is only hard to reach because you're standing in the wrong place trying to reach them. So actually it's the university that is hard to reach for the student. So actually, how could we rethink critically rethink the way that we're engaging students, how can we get the university or the college to be in a different position to engage that person so that might mean deconstructing our regular ways of gathering feedback and gathering data. Yeah, so I think perhaps in a six, there's a bit of critical thinking that's required about exactly, you know, is the data we're gathering the right kind of data for the people that we're concerned about. Fantastic, great question and thanks, Simon very thoughtful answer I've got another question over here. Can I just give my microphone over, I'm going to give my microphone over. I'm Kat, I'm from UniSC. I wanted to pick up on a kind of I guess a similar theme there in v4 around student associations and I guess that I don't know if he's still here but there's so many things that she said this morning that are just marinating in my brain that I want to go and spend a lot more time thinking about one of the things that she talked about was the meritocracy of the value that we place on things and one thing that I had thought of was particularly post COVID who decides what student engagement looks like. And in terms of associations that would probably at my university look like having students in that physical space on campus and that they would that would be viewed as them engaging in that activity. But who gets to decide what engagement looks like so can we think about other frameworks like to universal design for instance that I guess sounds as though it's a one size fits all but to me I really see that as it's something where people can engage in different ways in activities where they feel comfortable where it meets their needs and it still gives them a voice so perhaps there's other frameworks that we can think about in terms of associations that enable us to raise up those quiet voices and diverse student populations that want to participate in student voice work. Thank you. Yeah, very, very powerful stuff there and what I just want to share on screen because it partly answers your question but it also helps me to be conscious of the time that we have. These are just my suggestions on the screen here. I'm not quite sure if that's on the screen yet in the room I can see myself on screen. And, but those of you, I think, possibly in the chat in zoom will be able to see that I've got v3k one and a one as my suggestions and they are only suggestions of what might be the most relevant indicators so v3k one and a one. I mean, do you mind sharing your screen again because I know you've got a slide on that. Am I not. I am sharing. Oh, goodness, am I not. Right. Sorry, I thought I was sharing. No, you're right. Okay, maybe stopped me sharing that beautiful. Right, so there you go. So yeah v3 is about recognising the centrality of quality diversity, liberation and inclusion. And k1 is about the implications of the diversity and intersectionality of the student population so we've got that. And what's important here is the three things that the demography so who we all are demographically and the pedagogy so we're all studying different things in different ways and at different levels, and then the geography so, you know, Australians in the room certainly will know an awful lot about the challenges of multi campus delivery and remote and rural delivery and that's something that we have some case, some good practice on in Scotland, and that brings in a whole bunch of dimensions and anyone empowering all students to own and shape their learning but many of you and your contributions just now have suggested some others and actually, it probably depends on your role. So what you what I would suggest you do is really interrogate this framework. Because you'll be coming at it from very different types of professional practice and say well actually, if I am to listen to quiet voices here are the values knowledge or activities you know it's this set of indicators that I probably need to think about more. And especially if you're developing strategies and you're wanting to build capacities and others create new roles or train people better to deal with with with the engagement of quiet voices. Are there training programs that you could build around some of these categories and indicators rather to help other people. Wow. Can you still hear us. Yes. Fantastic. We just nothing to worry about nothing to worry about here we just we just can't see you anymore but but I was going to say we've got five whole minutes left in this session. So Simon what do you think would be the best thing for us to do next we could continue maybe raising our voices and talking about what we've shared so far. I'd really love it if someone who was online wanted to share because I heard there was an amazing conversation going on on there is there any chance anyone wants to unmute. Can I assure you we can actually see your face right now we'd only be able to hear your voice. I think the pickup and some of the concluding slides but obviously you'll be able to pick up the slides later on that I can see you're playing around with the projector soon but yeah this is some good chat and chat box and Melissa's made a very good point sorry to pick on you Melissa just recently about a one is being the most important because it's about. That could have been very nature of education and Melissa says she's eager to ensure that she's assisting students to define success on their terms and academic success looks very different for everyone that's a really powerful point and I'd never thought about that as an interpretation of a one so thank you. I just want to fire away. I'm scanning back through the chat I think there was quite a lot of chat and I'm, I think I could have missed some points. I do have another comment from in the room of that. Yes, very, very quickly to say that a couple of folks had talked about the recognition the accreditation and recognition actually, what do we give back to how do we professionally give back to people as well but yeah what have you got in the room. Thank you, Shani from USQ from the Careers team. I just wanted to when I glance across the the the vk in the a I'm seeing a lot of different pedagogies like transition theory and learning and teaching approaches on you know seeing some scope for career theory and I just wonder if you could speak a little bit more to some of the underlying ideas and theories and frameworks that helped you develop this framework here. Oh, goodness. I'm going to have to be honest and say that there wasn't a massively theoretical basis to this. So the fact that you're spotting that is fascinating and I would genuinely love it if you can drop me an email and explain a little bit more about what you're spotting here, because I think if we could capture that it'll make us look even more intelligent than we are because we can, we can claim a theoretical grounding that we didn't actually invent. So, thank you I think that's fascinating. I mean, rather than coming from theory team very much from from practice, you know it's basically this, this bunch of 20 or so student engagement practitioners who we get together three or four times a term just to kind of learn and get together, and they just kind of put their heads together to talk about what defined their, what defined their job. And, but I alluded to the UK professional standards framework that comes from advanced he that the he fellowships come out of something, but we also did a scan. It wasn't very theoretical but we did a scan of other similar models. And there's a further education lecturers professional standards in Scotland. And there's also just recently been created a professional standards framework for people in the widening access and participation roles. There's just been a national network created in Scotland called SCAP SCAP and the Scotland's community of access and participation practitioners that they like sparks but for widening access, and they came up with a similar framework and then there's also a framework relating to quality students unions. So it was quite it was a scan of literature in that sense but yeah we haven't really looked at kind of theoretical frameworks that lie behind this. So, yeah, I'd be fascinated to chat outside this meeting about what you what you're spotting in this because that's not something we thought about. Thanks, Simon, and thanks for that question, Shanie. We might just have one last question. If there's time. I'm going to walk towards someone and if someone online talks in the meantime. And just to see. I'm grateful to Mal and the chat for just talking about more about theories guiding the student engagement framework. I suppose just the fact that voices are important is a theory, the fact that you know, we live in a democratic society and we engage students in our learning in the same way that we engage health care patients in the shaping of their services and citizens and in the shaping of their local, you know, provision and the world around them and tenants in how housing is shaped, or at least we should be doing. I think there's probably some kind of theoretical basis that just comes from living in a democracy. And, you know, maybe this relates to tomorrow's tomorrow's votes in Australia but you know, when you live in a democracy it's important to recognize people's voices and include them in decisions that are made around them so I think that's one of the driving principles behind student engagement it's just what you do in a society where people have views on things. And that's not a theoretical framework so I'm not answering the question. It's the best I can do. But, but I think the spirit of what you're talking about this Simon resonates very strongly with those of us who are in Australia, and I couldn't think of a better way to conclude our session so I would like to thank everybody today in the room. Online in the chat on the mirror board on my analog version of the mirror board in the room. And I would like to thank you all for your thoughts and your energies here today it's just so wonderful to hear about all the work that is ongoing and all the deep thinking that we're doing. So, I would like to thank ask everybody to thank Simon in the room and online with a round of applause.