 I want to talk about the triangulation so there's obviously now we're talking about math we're talking about science we're talking about ancient spirituality we're talking about consciousness we're talking about all of these sacred sorts of Especially the last thousands of years that is from axial ages if explosion through scientific renaissance and explosion there and scientific method and whatnot. Coming together and triangulating on what this nature of reality is and that I think it's interesting as we were talking about the source code mountain and all these different ways up in exploration. We we kind of We we we may have mentioned this slightly that could it be that the That the ancient perennial spiritual wisdom of everything being one integration everything being one thing and then also having the small derivations like a calculus of consciousness there are small derivatives of us nerve endings. Having the conscious agent experiences and interactions and that cause actions to change and whatnot that that the triangulation of that and on. The science that is being pushed from like your conscious agent theory and many others are just pointing at this the same thing over thousands of years or we're coming to the same thing and that kind of maybe indicates that there is that one month to top with many different paths. I want to I want to see what you think about the the candy store analogy is very strong. It's very strong the the candy store analogy for the conscious agent experience and my question would be would be this I've I've been I've been struggling with trying to To understand this that for thousands of years there have been ancient spiritualities that have talked about how everything that is possible already is that's what infinity is infinity is everything that is possible. It's all the combinatorics that are possible are already happening and and the being. Becoming is the only being so it's just an infinite amount of becoming always eternally happening and that all the combinatorics that exist to but then there's Kurt Girdle and there's this incompleteness theorem and there's this idea that it's it's impossible to ever be everything it's impossible to ever be all the combinatorics possible so are we are we. Are we already exploring all of the combinatorics of the infinite candy store always and always will or can we never explore all of the combinatorics of the infinite candy store and therefore And and and maybe the oral boros could I can bring that in as well just that that as we evolve to whatever the Godhead attractor is that we're going towards maybe the recursive function is to just continue tasting more of the candy store combinatorics as conscious agents and that's that Transcension Hypothesis at the Godhead that we just go inward for more exploring so take us on that journey of those two options and then on we'll get to that recursive Godhead. Right so Girdle when he was only, I think 20 years old or 25 years old 25 yeah crazy when 1931 he Did one of the most brilliant things ever in human history he he proved his incompleteness theorems and and effectively what he showed was that if you have any set of like axioms. Assumptions for a mathematical system that's rich enough to do arithmetic, then he showed that there will always be statements that are true. Mathematical statements that are true, but you cannot prove from your axioms that the so these are unprovable truths, the truths that are unprovable. Now you can imagine the genius that it would take to prove that there are unprovable truths what he did. And now if you take those truths that are unprovable and add them to your axioms, you might think oh well then I'm done but then he proved no there will be yet new truths that are unprovable within the richer axiom and so what this means is that there is no end to exploration of mathematical structure of its and it seems to be an unending exploration that that even an infinite wisdom could never get around right that there's a sense in which you can't ever be smart enough to comprehend the whole thing this is this is pretty deep this is. An exploration that in principle appears to never ever be possible to stop in principle. Like the infinite men, men, what Benoit Mandelbrot fractal zoom. That's right, but this is a kind of mean there if you take the real line from zero to one. There's no points but yeah, you can see them all right there there's some sense in which it's comprehensible this is different this is like. Yeah, it's unending and so now how it relates to the consciousness stuff and what you're talking about is. If. Now I'm again bracketing with respect to a particular theory right so suppose we adopt the theory in which consciousness conscious experiences are fundamental right so then in under that idea. Mathematical structure is only about one thing consciousness and conscious experiences and in that framework then you would girdle would be telling us that there's an infinite variety of. Conscious experiences with an infinite variety of different structures and that may be a little strange to a lot of people to talk about experiences being structured right but if you if you think about just your experience of the world around you there's up down left right forward and backward there's. There's a structure three dimensional structure to your to your space and, and there's a structure of color space it turns out that, for example, red is a little bit closer to orange than it is to blue. Right there's this there's there's a closeness relationship that colors have in our perceptions and everywhere there's a field called psychophysics. It's been around since 1860 a guy named Gustav Fechner started it, but in that field what we do is we study conscious experiences and their structure and their structure all over the place so. All conscious experiences, they're more than mathematics so no conscious experience is just mathematics, but each conscious experience is structured, so I like to think about is that the conscious experience is to the mathematical structure like the living organism is to its bones. So it's like mathematics is the bones of consciousness consciousness is not just his bones it's it's much richer than that, but it's not less than his bones. It has to have the bones as well. So, so what girdle is telling us under this theory that consciousness is all there is that's this fundamental is that there's this infinite. Variety of conscious experiences with an infinite variety of structures so that's what I call girdle's candy store. Because these are now things to be experienced like candies right now the kid in the candy stores like let me try this one well that was great now let's try this new experience I love chocolate well I like caramel to and so what girdle is inviting us in this in this framework is to say that there's this infinite range of conscious experiences and no consciousness of any type. Even the most glorified can ever come to the end of the exploration. And so there will be this endless exploration of all the possible forms of conscience and we could actually think of girdle's theorem was telling us that that what it's about is consciousness learning more and more about itself as it explores more and more of its possibilities, but it will never end and and we're all perhaps. Are, quote unquote, we are that we are that. Yeah, top Tom Aussie the we are that or I and my father are one. Yeah. That's right and we're exploring it in a particular menkowski space format with objects and space and time and this is the particular little so but that's what that fits in with this headset idea like so instead of taking space and time as the final reality. In this bigger girls candy store picture it's right now this headset that we've assumed was the final reality is one candy in an unbounding candy store is just one. And what so part of the waking up is to recognize this rookie mistake that we took this chocolate as the only candy in the store this is the whole thing is it's all about chocolate well no it's not all about space and time and what's inside space and time that's just one little headset one candy in the candy store. Wake up to all the infinite possibilities again. You mentioned you mentioned this earlier something like a Walt Disney or a Pixar style imagination, where if you do imagine what it is like to evolve a headset that is non carbon based DNA coded beings in a space time quantum field theory soup of natural selection that then maybe you can you can envision what other simulated designs of realities look like and you could even wander just a couple solar systems over and think about what it would be like. You could even stay in this universe if you if you want and you could explore what what alternative. So, so does it does it feel like that then we are already all of the infinite candy store combinatorics always happening or that we can never be that and we are always endlessly exploring that. Well, girdle seems to be saying we're endlessly exploring and that that you're right that we can certainly try to imagine and explore outside of the standard space time kinds of things. But there are certain interesting limits to this to that we have right now so for example if I, this is one of my favorite examples of this if I ask you to imagine a specific color that you've never seen before. Oh yeah. But anything happen. But suppose you're colorblind right so you're you're a guy, you're you're red green colorblind. And so there's this whole range of color experiences that you can't have that you know every almost every woman has and color normal men have. There's this red green distinction that you don't have. But if I asked a color blind man to imagine red. Well, he can't do it right just like you can't imagine a new color. I can't imagine new color. So if so there are some really, if I can't even imagine one simple color I know colors right I've had lots of color experiences, but all my imagination does not allow me to inside the color wheel. Right. Yeah. Well, I can't I can't do it. And yet, we know that there are creatures. For example, there are some women who have four color receptors, not just three. So most of us know a long medium and short wavelength cone, but these women have apparently two versions of the long wavelength and they in some women they're all four of them are expressed in the retina. And when you do careful tests on these women so Kimberly Jamison of a PhD researcher here you see Irvine who I know, she and others have done careful tests. These women give clear evidence that they're that can be interpreted that they're in a richer color world than the rest of us, just like us trichromats, we are in a richer world than the color blind men. These women are in a richer color world than us. So they're having color experiences that I can't even imagine. I can't imagine what they I can imagine abstractly that they're having them. But I can't imagine concretely any one of those experiences. And so that's the limit that we're going to have right now it appears. Yeah, our understanding of the possibilities and some says we can understand abstractly the possibility of all these realms of all the all the candies in the candy store. Yeah. But until you taste the candy. Like, yeah, 4% of people are synesthetes and there's creatures that see an infrared and on the other side on the most violent like there's a different species envelope so the different. Different species are wearing different headsets and we could, you know, we can, we took the channel road Opsin for optogenetics and we took the, the, the green fluorescent protein GFP for the, for other biotech work that we've been using and we've, we were borrowing from headsets from like user interfaces to. Yeah, so this is very good if you can't imagine outside of the color wheel of our user interface, then it's hard to like Walt Disney or Pixar yourself out of into like the universe designs as well. But I think virtual reality does a really good job at trying to slowly in a sense kind of like stretch out your color wheel beyond because when you're when you go in and these things are just getting more and more indistinguishable. So that inevitably it's going to lead to a point where, where you may be spending your, your, your, your 80 years in grossed in the game because we've also hit the longevity escape velocity so you can now live, because we're just home. We're just, we're just engineering out any of the disease we're just tuning the car or the plane would give to like 15 year old homeostatic capacity of our body over and over again. So you can play for those 80 years, and then, and then take it out and then just be like wow that was vanilla that was great and now it's like back to caramel for now and then. Yeah, yeah, so I think VR will help. I agree it'll help it stretch our imaginations it helped to take us in different places and I think it will also help to understand the possibility that what we assumed was the objective reality space we assume the space and time and physical objects and the sun and the moon and stars. These are the absolute ground of reality. And, but someone who's actually you know, the next generation that sort of grows up and spends a lot of the time in virtual realities that are just as immersive and compelling as everyday life is not going to be you won't have to be really a genius to take off your headset and just wonder well what about this this is this is just another headset. You don't have you won't have to be an Einstein to do that it'll just sort of be like duh, you know, of course, it's a possibility I mean, if I can, if I with this headset in creating all these worlds that aren't there. Then surely I'm creating this world around me and it's not there either I'm the creator of it that whatever the reality is. This is just a headset to that reality. So I think it will really help our imaginations that way. But in terms of concrete imagining of specific new kinds of color or other kinds of experiences. I don't know, short of taking drugs that sort of you know like you know open the doors of perceptions in certain ways. And maybe meditation could do that. There may be some technology that will do that. But what we have right now, the way that scientists do it is we go there with mathematics. We let mathematics take us. So for example, can you imagine a three dimensional cube. Sure. Can you mention a four dimensional cube. Nothing happens right. Einstein had to be thinking in four dimensions to write down his, you know, equations for general relativity had to have a four dimensional, but he couldn't visualize it. So the mathematics was allowed Einstein to go where visual imagination couldn't. And that would go five, six, 10 dimensions in mathematics, and we can go there. So the mathematicians will tell you they can't visualize anything and yet there's a way that our imaginations are going there because we have this cognitive lever, this tool that takes our, our ability to only concretely imagine three dimensions and leverage that into the abstract ability to work in any number of dimensions, but we can't visualize it. And so that's so we can use mathematics to explore abstractly what's in girdle's candy store, but it won't actually let us taste it. Wow. Okay, so we will be able to make all these novel combinatorics of candies. The trick is going to be to enable us to actually taste that right. That's right. That's right. Just like you mean the simple problem though you can't imagine a specific color you've never seen before, and nothing happens. Yeah. If I discover all these new structures that consciousness can have and I say okay, well imagine what it's like well, you concretely won't be able to do it just like you can't imagine a specific color. So, so what we can do in some sense, what we're getting from the mathematics is, boy, are there all these really, really intriguing candies out there that are beckoning. Yeah. And I'm telling you that they're there but you can't taste them right now. Yeah. Yeah, there's, there's all there's this. There's this an infinite catalog of of of valence of conscious experience that is available of such wild combinatorics that are way beyond our own color wheel and tastes of candies that right now we're just talking about but that somebody has tasted or experienced and so we want to, we want to just shatter that and send lots of conscious agents out to experience that. Right. And that's from this point of view from this framework in which consciousness is fundamental that's what consciousness is up to. It's all sorts of explorations and we're and you and I are just some of those explorations we're exploring this particular candy in a particular part of the candy store and we're using Minkowski space and physical objects to do it. And, and most of us have no idea that there's anything else right this is the only candy in the store and, and we're happy. But this is one of the boundless candies and it's fun to wake up to that. It may be frustrating to if we sit here and go and but oh but I can't experience them. And by the way, even the mathematicians are based on girdle is incomplete this term, even the mathematicians can't abstractly even begin to explore just the mathematical structures. Right. But by the way, this is great job security for mathematics. This is provable job security. This is, you will never come to the last theorem. Never. So this sign up for being a mathematician because you know that you have endless employment. AGI will help us create those novel theorems that help push the edges further. I want to, I want to ask you about that oral boros. So at this, does it then if we are creating the the if we if we are a one that is having the dissociative as Bernardo Kastrup talks about experience of of the nerve endings that we are having the experience in in the reality that we ourselves have designed and made that then that we of course must not get lost in the own in the own infinite labyrinth of our creation but we must go towards that that whatever attractor of a of a star that we're all in a sense like orthogenically building towards right now. And is that star that we're building towards. Is that a recursion. Is that the transcension hypothesis is that all of us as conscious agents going through the process of making more Tasting more of the candies in the store so is our recursive God had function to just taste more candies in the infinite store that we will infinitely forever eternally be exploring. Well, that is the kind of idea that that I'm on pursuing here so so absolutely. And this, but this question really touches on something that you brought up before which is that there are many wisdom traditions or thousands of years that have said very very similar things and and and in some sense as a scientist. I'm sort of a Johnny come lately right sciences sort of a Johnny come lately to this but but the sciences is coming along, but, but the kind of answer to the question that you just raised will require that we take all the insights from the wisdom traditions. And then we also take the rigors of the scientific method in terms of theory building and careful testing and bring these together in a synergistic interaction.