 She was identified via fingerprints, but I'm the person who found Maricela, and so You found her? I found her. Wow. She was identified. Her body was in a bad state of decomp. They were able to get fingerprints to match to where our family had filed a missing persons report, but her body was so decomposed that they had to remove her hands and then put them in saline solution so they could rehydrate them then to take the fingerprints. Oh my gosh. Here's one story about Maricela and about her family and about all the people that have been deeply impacted by her death. That's just one person. Of the tags? Yeah. One human. So you amplify that story 3,000 times, it's a lot of sorrow, especially for the orange tags. There's over 1,000 people in Arizona that have disappeared, basically. The families will never probably find out what happened to them, and that's this horrible aspect to it. The desert is used as a way to deter migrants and it kills them, and then it destroys their bodies. The goal of this project, I mean it is, it's participatory, so these tags on this wall were filled out by about 500 volunteers at the University of Pennsylvania several months ago, and so with every exhibition that we're doing in 150 locations on five continents next year, we send them the kits with the basics and the information, and then they have to mobilize their communities to fill out the tow tags, and so for us the most important aspect of the whole thing is the filling out of the tags, that kind of moment of solidarity with migrants and then mounting it on the wall. So that's for us, you know, so it's not just coming and looking at the tow tags, but it's what does it mean to write down someone's name and the date they were found and the condition they were found in. Is that a way to raise our awareness and to connect us more to that issue? Someone's opinion may contradict yours. Where's my friend Allen? It's all about your perspective. Who are we and what is the nature of this reality? Five, four, three, two... What's up everyone? Welcome to Simulation. I'm your host, Allen Saakian. We are still on site at the American Anthropological Association's annual meeting in Vancouver, British Columbia, for our second partnership with them. We are now going to be talking with for our second interview, Dr. Jason Deleon. Hi Jason. Hi, thanks for having me. Thanks for coming back on. Congrats on all the progress. Look at this. Thanks. The beautiful project is now officially behind us. The undocumented migration project, Hostile Terrain 94, and this is now on tour across the United States and internationally, which is huge. It will be. Yes. Yes. And I'm so pumped to break this down with you and to unpack getting behind some of the tag represents actual human being, and we're going to get into that. To start, Jason, we've been fascinated with these questions and I'm really excited to hear your perspective about them. Are we really all one? You know, I think as an anthropologist, that's the argument that we're always trying to make is that whatever differences we might see between people, they're all superficial. And we all have a common ancestor. We all come from Africa, and it's kind of our job to really, I think, share that information with the public so people understand that yes, we are in fact all one. We're all the same species. Anything, these divisions that we have are culturally constructed divisions. So when you get down to it, the root of it, of course, we're all one. I love it. And it's been great actually being at the Anthropological Association's annual meeting because we've been talking about it from a perspective of yeah, the human species is all one. But then as we've been talking about it on the show so frequently, we also look at whatever you want to call it, the Big Bang or Source or God or Creation. I don't really care what you want to call it. But since that 13.8 billion years ago moment until now and four and a half billion years ago, all of the species, the 100 million species that have evolved on the planet up until now, those are also all one because it all goes back to a single source. Sure, sure. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I think part of the Anthropological Endeavour is to help us understand our place in the world, how we interact with one another, how we interact with our environment and understanding that, you know, humans don't live in a vacuum. Even if people want to pretend that they do, we know that everything that we do is deeply connected to the nature, to the environment. And we're in this current moment where people really need to understand that this relationship between between us and everybody else on the planet is a very fragile one. And if we don't take care of the planet, we don't take care of ourselves, you know, the end is unfortunately in sight. And this leads us to the next point, as you said. Everything is so deeply interconnected. The air that we're breathing in right now is coming from phytoplankton and trees, the bite of food that you just had prior to this was nourishing you through the power of the sun and the soil. That these systems are so deeply, intricately connected that there is no separation. And do you think that that is the most upstream issue that we face? I think it's a big one. I mean, I think climate change and, you know, human-induced climate change I think is one of the most crucial issues of our time. And it connects to all these other issues that people don't necessarily want to see the connection between us. So, you know, climate change forces people to leave their homes because they can't, it's not sustainable in certain places. And so we have a global migration crisis that's happening now. That's partly the result of, you know, the way in which we've interacted with the environment over the last several hundred years. But I do think you can make that argument that our relationship to the planet right now is the most crucial issue that we're dealing with. Yeah, and it seems as though the more enlightened we are about the true interconnectedness and there being no separation, the less climate issues we have, the less mental health crisis issues we have, the less inequality we have. The more we try and build a social fabric that's conducive to the flourishing of every single one of the humans that is here. So it feels like that is the most upstream that is then solving that could then solve so many of the downstream ones. One of the big questions is, well, how do we catalyze those feelings of interconnectedness or enlightenment or unconditional love? Yeah, it's tough. I mean, how do you convince people to be self aware? You know, you hope as an educator that you can do that. You hope that through research and the dissemination of knowledge that people can have a better understanding of their place in the world. But I don't know, it feels like right now we're kind of in dark times or this kind of post-truth moment where people don't necessarily want to hear things that are unpleasant or that fly in the face of maybe what they think they know about the world. So it's tough. I mean, getting people to wake up and see the writing on the wall is one of our biggest challenges right now. And I think anthropologists are struggling to show the general public that, look, we need to understand what's going on, our relationships with the environment, with one another. And I think social scientists and I think anthropologists in general are really well positioned to to talk about the human condition. But we got to figure out how to do it better so that people really can can understand it and and pick up on it. Yes, this is the huge point that you make. Triple A in anthropology in general is such a multidisciplinary study and we adore that. And we here on the program are huge synthesis, we try and synthesize science, spirituality, all these complex fields into some sort of a story that inspires people to take action that inspires awakening. So anthropologists also have that as one of their most pressing issues is figuring out how to tell the stories in new age, multimedia content style ways that then get people inspired to actually understanding the world that we're in. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I think we're in a moment to where anthropologists are starting to realize that the traditional ways in which we've tried to disseminate knowledge aren't accessible to a lot of people. You know, the journal article, the academic manuscript, most of the world has wants nothing to do with those things. And we need to be more more savvy. We need to be better at translating our work for a general public and whether that's through film, through social media, through arts. I think all of those things should be explored within the discipline. And it does feel like right now we're in a moment where people are starting to really recognize the importance of that type of work. And I know for me, like on a personal level, I've seen the power that comes with making your work accessible and translating it for different kinds of audiences. And, you know, I'm firmly committed to, you know, to exploring those issues and really trying to be an example for others in the discipline that, you know, anthropology doesn't have to look one kind of way. You can do a whole bunch of different things. I mean, this exhibition is a case in point. We'll reach more people with this exhibition than I'll ever reach with a book or with a journal article. And being able to come further compress, yes, this exhibition going on around the world, extremely awakening and also taking things like even this exhibition and further compressing it into a short video about you. Yeah, powerfully speaking about the reason why this even exists and putting that across, you know, TikTok and Snapchat, right? Yeah, going really crazy on getting to Gen Z. Yeah, yeah, and awaken them. So, I mean, the mediums, it's so important. The medium becomes the message. Is it then that this complexity that we're talking about of the current state of our reality and the trajectory of where we're going and how we awaken? Is that the reason why this was even made in the first place for us to rise to these challenges? What do you mean by in the first place? Like a reality in general or? Yeah, was this reality made so that we could experience this adventure in consciousness where we have this complex reality that we have to deal with to try and progress? You know, that's a good question. And I think as a not very spiritual person, I'm probably not the best person to kind of ask that question, too. But I do think, you know, we as a species are, you know, we're constantly responding to our environment and our environments change. I mean, evolution is happening in real time. And so it's really fascinating to kind of look at, you know, how our species responding to changes, to history. And I think, you know, at least in the kind of human sense, our awareness of the world has really has changed as evolved over time. And I think that we're a lot smarter than we used to be in some ways and then maybe dumber in others. But I do think these kind of existential questions are really important and ones that that everybody's kind of grappling with. You know, what is what is the meaning of all this where we headed? You know, is life about suffering? Is it about overcoming suffering or is it about something else? Every child being equipped with that question and probing into the reality with that is such a fundamental for sure. Beginning point. OK, and now we have this more than ever, we have what we think are two really interesting ways to look at dichotomy. In a sense, you have indigeneity, which has deep interconnectedness to each other, to nature. You have modernity, which has incredible advances in technology, but some lack in interconnectedness and lack in nature and to each other. Is is a good idea a marriage? Sure. No, I mean, I think just any kind of sensitivity to to the many issues at play, whether that whether you want to call that, you know, traditional knowledge, or or something else. I think the technology has gotten so far away from us. And we've lost sight of, I think, some really crucial kind of elements of what it means to be human. And so I don't think I don't think you can have this these advances in technology without really addressing these other kinds of issues. I mean, when we do do that, we know that it, you know, it's not going to end well for us. So I think that I think we're in a moment to where where people are recognizing that. I mean, as we see the technology now happening at a speed that is almost incomprehensible, we're all struggling to kind of catch up. And I do feel like there's hope in people thinking about, you know, how do we best equip ourselves for for dealing with the future and for dealing with, you know, this runaway technology? How do we how do we pull it back or make sure that it's developing in a in a in a sensitive, you know, ethical kind of way? Yeah, it's a if we continue making technology without being morally, ethically, spiritually, philosophically, literate and advanced, we're going to cause greater suffering than if we would just do those first principle practices. For sure. Yeah, new technologies, like you said, is incomprehensible. They're being they're being emerging technologies and markets are being created. Meanwhile, the fruits are going to the top one percent. Fifteen percent of the new wealth is going to one percent. This is this is ripping apart our social fabric. Half of the planet still on two dollars and fifty cents a day or less, which is what we pay here for a cup of coffee. These are very important things to structure the new architectures that make it so the democratization of the fruits go out to us all and think about all the gifts that get unleashed. The median age of Africa is 18 right now. All of the unique hearts and gifts that get to express themselves. If we can stitch together that proper social fabric for sure. Yeah, no, it's I mean, technology is another huge issue that we have to deal with. And I think anthropology has been very good at making predictions and trying to make us aware of what, you know, the repercussions of what we're doing. And I think and, you know, thinking into the future in terms of, you know, what we do today, how's it going to look in 50 years? But then also trying to use things like archaeology to teach us these important history lessons to remind us like these things have gone have gone bad in the past. And so we need to pay attention to, you know, to our own histories so that we don't make these same mistakes again. This is a perfect segue. I believe last year around the same time when we did our first interview, you really expanded my consciousness to a new dimension of awareness. You taught me that contemporary archaeology can be something like studying the US-Mexico border. And these border crossings that have been happening and these humans for a myriad of different reasons are pursuing in many ways, leaving something that is less around their flourishing and trying to get to something that's more for their flourishing. And it's so incredible that that this can even be done around the world where there is a new chapter in what archaeology can be when it's done. And this is happening all around the world. We were talking about all these different border conflicts last time as well that are happening around the world and how we can try. And if it's safe, if it's safe, we can go and try and be contemporary archaeologists to create things like this so that it doesn't just get swept under the rug in history and everything blown away. Because if you know, if you begin trying to process this, this is 3,200 over 20 years, something like that or so. Wow, of going in. And doing field work where I mean, you have to imagine this because some of these tags, we're going to read them. They say things like the body still has flesh where the body does not have flesh. So you literally saw this humans that are in those positions. And and you have to have the ability to log that and to understand, like, have enough humanity to like try. And this is such an emotionally stressing process as well. Because he's, yeah, yeah, it's a heavy, heavy thing. But, you know, it's it's trying to remind people or raise awareness. I mean, many people don't don't know this thing is going on. And so I think part of my job as an anthropologist is to disseminate knowledge about the world so people can understand. Hey, we've been having a humanitarian crisis at the US Mexico border for a long time and it's taken thousands of people's lives and it continues to do so right, you know, right now. So how do we raise raise that that awareness? It's again, it's just so nuts thinking about you and other members of your team going into the field and going through this, like you said, heavy process of identifying things like humans that have passed that across 20 years, you've you've found 3200. But there's not me, not me, though. So this this info this info comes from the Pima County Office of the Medical Examiner. And so I mean, we have found human remains. But but many of most of these are, you know, found by other hikers, law enforcement, wow, you know, hunters, that kind of stuff. Or migrants who call the police and say, you know, someone disappeared. And so it's a wide range of circumstances in which these bodies were found. Hikers, law officers, Pima, Pima County. Pima County, yeah. In what state? In Arizona, in Arizona, Pima County, Arizona. A majority of this is the Arizona. So this is this is Arizona, Mexico. Yeah, only Arizona, Mexico is here. So if you would expand this into California or to Texas, New Mexico, you know, you would add a lot more, a lot more bodies. That's one of the four states that's on board. OK, so one out of four states has 3200 so far identified tags recovered. So the orange or unidentified bodies and the manila represent people who have names. So there's about 1200 unidentified bodies that have just been buried in a popper's grave. Wow. OK, there's 1200 orange tags. Yeah. And those are unidentified. Yeah. Wow. OK, let's do this. Let's let's take one. I'll remember where it's coming from. No, it's fine. It's going to come down in a minute. So so this is an unidentified tag. And this is again, this is so this is a human that was discovered but unidentifiable. Yeah. Yeah. And it could be because they they themselves that the body condition. Yeah. One of the items on the tags is decomposed. Yeah. So then you can't actually identify facial features. So if it's like skeletal remains, you know, there's no way to do fingerprints. You can do a DNA sample, but it doesn't necessarily you can take a DNA sample. But if you don't have a comparative sample, you know, to match it to, then it's not going to it's not going to do you any good. So you can extract DNA from from skeletal remains, do a DNA analysis. But if someone hasn't submitted that person's DNA or relative, you're not going to you're not going to have anything to match it to. So and people don't know that the relatives are that they're dead. They don't know where they are. If they if they disappeared, they may not know where they disappeared. Maybe they disappeared in Mexico or in California, you know, people just don't know. Oh, my goodness. OK, so wow. So there's this breakdown of unidentified and identified and seeing a decomposed body and not being able to know even who the human is, what who what their what their name was, what their family was, what their unique gift that they were could have brought to the world is. Ambitions were friends were. Yeah. So that is that is unidentified. Now we will go with identified. Well, here, how about this one? Yeah. OK. So this is an identified and there's then there's about 2000 identified. Yeah. OK. OK. And so we're looking at a female that was around the age of 30. Yep. Her name was Carmita Marisela Zaguipuya. Carmita Marisela Zaguipuya. Yeah. And now how did you even gain the name? Did they have identification? She was identified via fingerprints, but I'm the person who found Marisela. And so you found I found her. Wow. She was identified. Her body was in bad was in a was in a bad state of Decombe. They were able to get fingerprints to match to her family had filed a missing person's report. But her body was so decomposed that they had to remove her hands and then and then put them in saline solutions so they could rehydrate them then to take to take the fingerprints. Oh, my gosh. Wow. OK. She was from Ecuador. She was a mother of three. And you learned that information as well when you with the family? I went to Ecuador. I went to Ecuador to meet with her family. I've met with her family in New York. She's kind of a big inspiration for this project. I spent a lot of time writing about her family and about the impact that her death had on her on her kids. Oh, my goodness. So you went to Ecuador met with her family also in New York. Yeah. So what was the reason why she had left? You know, her family was was poor. They were living in a like one room dirt shack with a dirt floor. And, you know, she said to her family, you know, my kids are starving here. And so I've got to go and try to find some way to support them. And one of the last things she said to them was, you know, my kids are dying of hunger here. And so I cannot just sit idly by as it happened. So I'm going to I'm going to migrate. And whatever my fate is, at least I've tried, you know, I've tried to improve the improve their lives. Wow. Wow. And this is this is how many how many children again? Three three three kids trying to provide them with a better life. Yeah, Maricela. Wow, Ecuadorian. Yeah. And just even to identify her, the hands needed to go in sailing solution to get a fingerprint to confirm it. And she'd only been dead maybe three or four days when we found her. But then she laid in. She was in cold storage unembalmed for like three weeks. And so by the time the body was returned, I mean, she was in it was in really bad condition. And one of the things that her family was told not to open the coffin is that the body's not it's not in a good shape. You don't you really shouldn't see that. And but of course, everybody wanted to see to see her. The kids wanted to say goodbye. Yeah. So they opened the coffin and it was incredibly traumatizing for the family. We do in that situation. This is yeah, this is all. Wow. I mean, the body itself. Yeah, I mean, wow. So the body itself has a storage processed so that it doesn't further decompose. There's the family that wants to see the body that can get traumatized, triggered by seeing it, but wants to say goodbye. The best solutions to not have this happening. Yeah. Yes. And the cause of cause of death is COD and probable hypothermia. Yeah. Yeah. She probably died from a combination of hypothermia and a preexisting kidney condition that she was left behind by her group and died by herself. And probably because she just couldn't she couldn't walk anymore because of her both because of the heat and because of this medical problem that she was having. This is such a heavy, so heavy. This is it is ridiculously heavy. And what do we what do we do? We have people that want to feed their children, that want to gain greater economic opportunity to do. So what is the way to make it so that this problem is not continuing? You know, I think we've got to work on comprehensive immigration reform. You know, people need to migrate. We want the labor, so we should make we should make their ability to move between countries safer. But also, I think we need to invest in these places. I mean, people don't want to migrate. I mean, they would prefer to stay home. And the way global inequality works is that there are many countries that are being abused by powerful nations and we like keeping them underdeveloped. They provide us with a cheap source of labor and we're able to exploit them in all kinds of ways. And so I think it's not just immigration reform and allowing this kind of free movement of people, but also investing in infrastructure in these places so that people don't have to move. I think that's I think you can't have one without the other. So following a power law distribution where there's only a couple of economic powers that have a vast majority of the global wealth, they get to bully around other countries in the world and not necessarily focus on uplifting the other countries in the world, but just reshaping rules and regulations for their own favor in the absolute worst case scenario that that's what happens. And so it's both a process of actually truly finding the best means for investing into those regions to enable people to not need to make these migrations, but also create reform migration to make it so that people that are seeking to migrate can do so without the possibility of death in the process. Those are the two. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I still can't believe that this is only one of four states. So you think that the number could be in 10,000? Oh yeah, yeah, probably. I mean, Texas, there's thousands of people who have died in Texas. We know very little about what's going on there. Arizona, I mean, New Mexico's increasingly becoming a new crossing corridor. People are dying there now. You know, and I think about with this stuff, here's one story about Maricela and about her family and about all the people that have been deeply impacted by her death. That's just one person. Of the tags. Yeah. One human, one human. So you amplify that story 3,000 times. It's a lot of sorrow, especially for the orange tags. I mean, there's over 1,000 people in Arizona that have disappeared, basically. The families will never probably find out what happened to them. And that's this horrible aspect to it. The desert is used as a way to deter migrants and it kills them, and then it destroys their bodies. And I think people will say, well, at least like with Maricela, we got her body back. We were able to bury her. We know where she is now. But I work with families that, they've had family members disappear and they will never know. Her 15 year old cousin disappeared a year after she died, and we still haven't found him. And he could be on this wall as one of the unidentified tags, or he could just have disappeared in the desert, be eaten by vultures, completely destroyed, and we'll never find any of his remains. The process of amplifying the sorrow of one human passing in this circumstance to 3,200 of them that have been the ones that have been identified, 2,000 identified, 1,200 not, just only that you're aware of on just one fourth of the order. This is quite a heavy feeling. So there's more family members, there's more ambitions that are unfulfilled. Family members that gain trauma. There's ones that have never identified. And viewing it that way tells the story that do we really want to inflict that much more suffering? Yeah. Do we want to know what could have been unleashed from their ambitions? Yeah, it's a, I mean, and it keeps happening. It's happening right now. You know, it's been going on for 20 years and it doesn't seem like it's gonna stop anytime soon, unfortunately. So this is experiential immersive art that is also contemporary archeology. And I believe we talked about this a little bit last time, but this style of portraying the information has a profound impact for those that are willing to slow down and look at the tags and aim to really immerse themselves in a human's reasons for going across them. Well, and the goal of this project, I mean, it is, it's participatory. So these tags on this wall were filled out by about 500 volunteers at the University of Pennsylvania several months ago. And so with every exhibition that we're doing in 150 locations on five continents next year, we send them the kit with the basics and the information, and then they have to mobilize their communities to fill out the tow tags. And so for us, the most important aspect of the whole thing is the filling out of the tags and that kind of moment of solidarity with migrants and then mounting it on the wall. So that's for us, so it's not just coming and looking at the tow tags, but it's what does it mean to write down someone's name and the date they were found and the condition they were found in. Is that a way to raise our awareness and to connect us more to that issue? The answer is absolutely, yeah. Wow. So 150 locations across five continents in 2020. We're hoping to break Asia. We haven't gotten to Asia yet, but we're on five continents. You heard that, let's get into Asia. That's huge, yeah. So we want to get this into Asia. We want to help be able to fund. You have a funding team now. And this is great, actually, to see your team here, helping you get the right resources together to make, you have to make these kits. And the kits, like you said, are extremely special because they have a lot of resources extremely special because they have the 2000 identified tags and the 1200 unidentified tags, but they're blank. Yeah. And then the community has to assemble a team that then goes through the process of writing these. And then that immerses you in the experience of creating a tag to represent a human. Yeah. That plus the immersive experiential side of it are really great components to increase the awareness. I mean, we hope that by writing out these names of the dead, it's in some way bringing them back to life, breathing life into these toe tags just for a brief moment. And so to remind folks that they're not forgotten, even if they're unidentified, we're still at least recognizing that that is a person. And that's real crucial for us to just connect it with as many communities as possible. So we're all over the United States, Latin America, Europe, Australia, and Africa. And we're trying to connect with different communities that have been impacted by migration. So we have a heavy presence in Mexico, in Central America, but also in the Mediterranean. So we'll bring this to places like Lampedusa. We'll bring this to Morocco. We'll bring this to Athens and work with communities there, especially refugee and migrant communities, to help us build these exhibitions and to show some solidarity. So we do a lot of outreach with different communities and then trying to show that the US-Mexico border is not happening in isolation. We're having a global migration crisis and this is just one of many crises that are happening right now. And can we bring awareness there but then also increase our awareness of what's going on in these other places as well at the same time? A global migration crisis that's happening with an unnecessary amount of suffering and death and that by getting other people to more deeply immerse themselves in the emotions of the crises across the planet, then it increases our awareness around it and desire to make solutions as soon as possible. Jason, this is ridiculously heavy but it's also the exact amount of awakening that needs to happen. This is the style of severe, kind of like shaky style awakening. Sure, for sure. That, yeah, does that kind of ring a bell? Yeah, I mean, it's not subtle, you know? And I think we don't live in a moment where subtlety is working. And so this is like, look at it, recognize that there's a crisis going on and then ask yourself, what am I gonna do about this? How am I gonna make this better? Do I care? And so when someone next to me here, someone says something bad about a migrant or about the US-Mexico border, what's the image that you're gonna have in your mind? Is it gonna be this anti-immigrant kind of headline in a newspaper or is it gonna be this? This, exactly. So that's the hope. Cause when you are in that situation and you're able to pull this out and properly explain this, it actually has the potential to change the other person's world view for the better. Yeah, yeah. It hope. Yeah. And this is also a great idea for other areas of conflict on borders around the world. If those that are watching have border conflicts happening, they themselves can make similar exhibitions. And it's designed to be relatively affordable. So it's only, it's $1,500 for the whole kit. For the whole kit? Yeah, and so if people can't afford to do it, we'll subsidize it. So we're just trying to make this as accessible as possible. It's like all of our Latin American shows are subsidized. All of our Africa shows are subsidized. But it's just if someone is interested and wants to bring us to their community, wants to connect it with issues that are relevant to their community in terms of immigration, border security, we're more than happy to partner with them. So people should get in touch. I mean, you can go to our, we have our website, hostileterrain94.org. They can get tons of information there. They can drop us an email if they're interested in learning about becoming a host or in getting involved in this in different places. So I mean, we're at 130 confirmed locations right now. We anticipate that we'll hit 150 by the end of the year. So people can look at the map and go, where my community is happening, is it nearby? And for a lot of people, it really, it will be. So that's the goal. We're going to push this out starting in May and it'll run all the way until November 2nd. From May till November 2nd of 2020. 2020, yeah. So it sort of staggers. It's like we have open, we've show opens, we've shows opening in May and then we have some summer stuff. And then late fall is, or early fall is a lot of Europe. And then all of the US shows launch. You know, Latin America happens kind of in the summer and then all of the European shows. And then the US stuff happens between late August and late October. And then the final version of this will be at the Corcoran Museum in Washington DC where we'll build this wall, but we'll use tags that have been filled up in people from 150 locations around the globe. And so you'll be able to go and see this and see this thing that's been built by literally thousands of people. And we estimate that we could have 60,000 people filling out tow tags as part of the 150 shows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, it's gaining steam. It's been really humbling to see all the support that we've gotten. Yes. That's a massive awakening for the 60,000 people that will be filling these out, plus hopefully 100,000 plus people that will be viewing it. And the data is there, which is another very interesting thing that we need to be archaeologists, the contemporary archaeologists about is finding the data for California, New Mexico, Texas, making similar displays across other border conflicts around the world. Can we identify the humans and the reasons why and the trauma that's been inflicted on their families? And can we build a social fabric that does not have that happening anymore? We can, the answer is yes, but galvanizing the awareness to do so requires movements like this. I need to ask this question, how do you yourself state emotionally resilient given the stories that you were just explaining to us? You know, I think I have a good team. I work with a lot of students and other collaborators who were all really supportive of one another. We do a lot of talk therapy. We sort of work these issues out. I mean, this is not easy for us. Absolutely. And I was telling someone earlier today, every time I fill out a toe tag, you know, I respond in a different way. And sometimes it's in a really kind of heavy way. Like, you know, I can just find myself breaking down in the middle of it and just be totally surprised by that reaction. Like, I would think that after so much time around this that I would be desensitized, but it's actually the complete opposite. So we just try to take care of ourselves, you know, do a lot of self-care and then also remind ourselves too that I'm very privileged to be able to raise awareness about this issue. And so as horrible it is for me to be involved in this stuff and to see this trauma over and over again, it's not as bad as what's happened to these folks. And so that kind of keeps me grounded in terms of recognizing my privilege in this space and then, but also really inspiring me to say, if I don't do this, then who is? And so, you know, the lives that we're trying to raise awareness about, I think really energize all of us as a team. I message you this saying something similar where I previously hadn't made a really strong emotional understanding that this tag is representing a human of such complex existence. And that's the style of response that we want. And this is something that we deeply immerse our emotions into and perspective behind and galvanized solutions to. And again, I'm just really grateful that you and your team have been going with this much steam moving forward. Well, thank you. You're so awesome. We're gonna keep it going. We got 11 months to go, the other thing is done, so. Yeah, I actually feel like this is the exact thing that shakes towards the solutions, shakes the awareness towards the solutions and then can hopefully shed light on all of the other border conflicts and forced migrations and can hopefully make more. Wow, thank you for all of this. Thank you for all of this breakdown. And our hearts are with the families and these spirits that are no longer here and that are sacrificed for us to build the next world that does not have these issues. Yeah, well, thank you. Thanks, Jason. Thanks for coming on the program. No, thank you. Always a pleasure. Thank you. You are just, you guys are doing incredible work. Thanks everyone for tuning in. We greatly appreciate it. We'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments below on the episode. Let us know what you're thinking. Please support HostileTerrain94.org, support the undocumented migration project. Please support them. The links are on the bio below. You can follow Jason as well across his platforms. All those links are below. You can learn more about the project. You can get involved. You can donate to support the exhibitions that we're doing in underserved communities. We have an online shop where you can buy, you can Christmas shop, you know, that there's lots of things that we have that we're using to help support this project. So we've got a pretty heavy online presence. There's all of those different ways to get involved. Please reach out and get involved. Please, everyone, and support the American Anthropological Association as well. It's really important to remember that we had only went through one of these examples and that if you amplify that example that many times, that gives you a deeper resonance with what this actually is. And you can support us too, so we can continue doing great things like coming onsite to incredible conferences like triple A to interview great leaders like Jason. Please help support us. You can find our links in the bio below. And go and build that future. Architect the social fabrics for more flourishing around the world, everyone. Thank you very much for tuning in. See you soon. Thank you. We'll hopefully see you in San Francisco. We're working on that. This is insane. This is insanity. This is absolute insanity. Yeah. The fact that we are doing this to have to happen. It had to happen to awaken us. We wouldn't awaken if this isn't.