 Parallel Congress's insecurity and boycotting mar the just-concluded APC state Congresses and Zerab takes the administration of President Muhammad Buhari to court. They want the court to declare the administration's plan to monitor WhatsApp illegal. This is plus politics and I am Mary Anacoff. The just concluded APC Congress experienced a variety of issues in various states in the country. For instance in Anambra the Congress was postponed due to insecurity. The one in all your state was suspended. Four chairman emerged in a quibble due to parallel Congresses. The boycotting of the Congress in Delta State among others. It is also worthy of mention that in almost all states a parallel Congress was held including Lagos and all your. The People's Democratic Party PDP responded to this and other reports reprimanding the ruling party saying it was a clear signal of serious reasons why the nation had been in disaster. Well joining us to discuss this is GD O'Logan a legal practitioner and a Chike Chude a political affairs analyst. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Okay all right so I'm going to start with you by O'Logan. Just before the convention or rather the state Congresses we spoke about this issues with some other people and people were many people spoke of Lagos in fact many other states that's at sites from choir. Many people were more optimistic about you know other states other than Lagos. They were hoping in fact they were so certain that Lagos state was going to experience parallel Congresses. But then let's start with Lagos because that's where we are. One would think that Lagos APC has it all together being that the leader of the APC is from Lagos state. But what we saw over the weekend did not necessarily point to that. You know there are at least two approaches to promoting internal democracy within political parties. We are talking about party Congresses now and one is advocacy the other is legal or regulatory approaches and you must begin to ask questions in this direction that was there sufficient inclusiveness within the act to ensure that we did not have the cross Congress that took place and again have we been able to fend off the rules and regulations within the system that would prevent those who are overly ambitious in court now from running in such a manner that will bring embarrassment to the party except we just want to assume and let me say that assumption is the lowest level of knowledge that in situations like these should be part of politics and when you talk about internet democracy also I mean you must generate methods of including party members in decision-making and deliberation within the party structure because what we are seeing now is basically about the control of the party structure power if you look at the case of currency for instance within the government that controls a faction being at look ahead with a minister at the federal level that controls and other factions claiming that I am in control you are in control and if at the party level we have not been able to bring about true democracy how they will begin to deliver dividends of good governance to the people and this are the constants of many of us as we dialogue now and in virtually all the states the exercise became constitutional struggle for the control of the party structure and some of us have been of the position that if political victories in the country have been engaged to keep back to good governance by now we have less rank hole within the party structure like we are having now and it also appears that some parties are not learning from history we recall how the crisis in the priorities in reverse data some other states led to APC losing power to the other party recently in the real estate also you saw the rank cause within the party that made gov no basic to jump the boat of ABC and he crossed to PDP and he won the election as the candidate and that was victim for PDP so I think for now we should have gone beyond the inability to put our houses in order so that when we eventually step into the opportunity of managing the nation at a macro level we also come out with excellent results okay let me move to Achike Achike I'm still staying with Lagos don't let's not forget that Lagos day APC came up with the whole Southwest for a Suadju and you know the Southwest is also pushing for presidency to the south and if if this is what we're seeing don't forget the states the majority of the states that had ranker or your state had its own issues or gone state reportedly they were gunshot Quarra state I mean the numbers are being raked in if the Southwest does not or is not seen to be able to put itself together how can they be pushing or positioning for presidency be that I mean whoever it might be whether it's from Lagos whether it's from any other state how how should I mean the voting populace look at the APC in the Southwest yeah well the Southwest like you have rightly said is supposed to be the you know the hunting ground of the APC the home of the APC and of course if you're talking about the APC you're talking of the one major person he is the you could call him the spiritual head of the APC or political head of the APC but the reality is that he has been the leader unchallenged undisputed for so many years now started from the ACN and all that AC and all that you know and then the APC obviously but what you have been seeing how we have been seeing the past few days is a diminution of his authority you know and really how so when you say diminishing of his authority how so I mean of course he does have he is the leader of the party but he cannot tell states and and you know and the state level parties how to run their internal party democracy can he well he has always done that I mean it's always been out there you know in the politics of Lagos state for instance and the south ways that him he is the dominant personality within the APC his word is Lois authority and it has been reported all this while that he has a hand in virtually all the elective positions that go on especially in Lagos state which is the bastion of his political empire that he has to give the nod to you know everybody that wants to contest even as as lower as them as low level as a even at the the councilorship of the party the room has been out there for so long but he did come but he did come out but he did come out just before the local government elections to say that these are all allegations he doesn't have a hand that if you are if you think that you are capable throw your hat into the ring and if your people feel that you should run of course they will vote for you so really could we say that this is a rumor it's a politician he says it's expected it's expected to say so the reality is that he must have if you if you have any serious political you know motivation ambition in Lagos state most especially it is better for you for your political successes to seek the favor of the person that matters more than any other person within the politics of the state and you know and the reality is that it is not a new thing in virtually every part of the country you also have got fathers who have a larger-than-life image more or less who can determine the political direction of any particular person you know in most cases these got fathers are the founders of the party and and because they are the founders of the party they tend to have a very big say in quadruples within the party structure do not forget that in the in the first Republic we had members of the political parties who are contributing to the fortunes of these parties and that is not the case anymore the politicians but cruel this political party and he who pays the pipeline must always dictate the tune but I was talking about is the diminution of his influence in the south-west especially in Lagos do not forget that at a particular point in time when the APC had swept the entire south-west it took a some intrigues with Abbas and Joe in discussion with you know to know to you know allow the PDP with some some some concessions within the south-west especially the governorship of some of the states in the south-west which Abbas and Joe you know somehow I went against some agreements that he already had in place with her to know but you know who was able to bounce back and his party was able to bounce back but over time you have seen the APC or the ACM before the suffer losses in places like Osho state before nine places like Iqiti state and in places like your state and the empire before then had you know gone be moved to most of the states in the south-west so well you still have a very strong bastion which is Lagos state and but over the past few years and in the last few congresses that we have had in the state you have had opposition in fact from 1999 when he was governor to the governor of Lagos state till about when Fashola was governor and left office as governor there was nobody who had the guts who had the courage who had the club to challenge Tinubu or to challenge the political hegemony of Lagos state at a particular I mean you know for that period of time but over time just like the last congress that we had we've had people who have shown that courage for whatever reason to challenge the hegemon in Lagos state and that is what we are seeing again in the primaries that have taken place but it is not just an APC in Lagos Spain or Southwestern it is a problem with the APC as a political party and that has to do with the fact that this is a party you know that brought people from different you know disparate linens to come together and to form a political party but you know in the way they went in the way in the structure of the party and in the way the party goes about doing his things you realize that somehow and they have fallen short of a political party so you just have a political party in them but more or less the APC as a political party is more of an association of people with similar interests and what are those interests power up political power for the sake of power itself you know and that's why there's no enduring you know a democratic you know it was no enduring philosophical construct or ideological basis on which they do their things so you have politicians move from one party to another party you know and I know that it is simply because there's no enduring you know for the philosophical construct that wields these people together and that's why you have seen all of these parallel congresses because they are not motivated by any sound ideological compass but accept the desire for political power for the sake of it. Let me go back to Baritah Logan it seems very obvious that these congresses this time around are between the governors versus you know former governors it seems more so like that and we've also seen stories of you know former the former governors of Oshuan or Ogun states maybe having to lose out as a result of these congresses I mean we've seen even the former rather the minister for information in his state it's it's a versus between the governor versus him and then versus the minister for state minister of state for transportation in Kora state we have seen all kinds of terrible videos come out of Kora state first it was about the chairmanship of the party when the APC and River state had their re-registration exercise we saw some terrible fighting I mean I cannot get that video out of my head they were throwing seats at each other and you know going at each other so it makes me really wonder why is it a versus between the governors and the depth and the former governors you see this is a very brilliant question that we have on the table and I must say it's because we have relegated good governance not just the backseat but to the votes of the vehicle locked up there because if we have paid attention to good governance having exercised the opportunity of governing a state the next post of assignment is for you to occupy a space of respect and just watch and advise from the background but now that we have found ourselves in a different democracy in Nigeria where it may be the government of the people by the government and for the elites so you see people clamoring for power and by extension and by reflection of the mirror what happens is that the more poverty you create in society the more impoverished you are with your so-called riches so you must also always struggle to retain the power so that you have the false sense of security I mean I mean when you talk about the lives of Obama in the Democrats in America these guys will rather back up candidates and things like that but you see a situation where politicians are deliberately rocking them I was involved in a battle concerning the case of piracy before these congresses and it was it was not a beautiful one at all a political stalwart was actually abusing the the governor that is there now and claiming that if APC has any interest in piracy that governor must not be presented or election against so you begin to wonder what has happened to the tenets of internal democracy but where you abandon the interests of the people and begin to project your personal ambition this is where you find yourself because I mean look at what happened in 2015 the enormous goodwill that was delivered to this party and today you can hardly differentiate between the two parties in terms of learning from their failures or learning from their success because the people have been impoverished we have various crises in the country and this is a confirmation that rather than focusing on solving the problems and the land and enhancing the fortunes of the people they are busy struggling for power and the big question is why do you need this power why do you need this authority of course to carry out the mandate of the constitution that says that the security and the wealthier of the people shall be the primary purpose of government so that some of us may predict that they should expect more of this until they begin to pay attention to the purpose of being in office which is to serve the people and bring prosperity back to the nation it makes me really wonder if the APC has learned because you were making reference to that if they really learned from their mistakes because many many pundits have said that the reason why the APC will keep struggling as political party is because they did not have clear cut principles and a plan of sorts other than to take out the government that was in power at the time but let's talk about learning from mistakes let's look at a state like river state where we've had the same issue go on and on and on and it's still repeating itself even it repeated itself on the weekend remember that in 2019 the APC lost all of its tickets in river state because of the same issues of factions where we have the minister of transportation versus a former senator Magnus Abbey and people that follow him this is what still transpired over the weekend and really does the APC or is the APC let me put it this way really ready to learn from its mistakes to move ahead is there a plan whatsoever or are we going to keep seeing these things happen and and and if this keeps happening what's the hope for 2023 and all the plans that they may have yeah well um well if um if a politician by definition is somebody who seeks electoral office in an election for the purpose of improving on the lives of the people if that is a primary motivation for politics and for politicians then those of them who are you know politicians in this country are not exactly politicians but you could describe you describe them as mercenaries you know or people who you know the mercenary is essentially a soldier of fortune he there are no moral compulsions and so he seeks power for the sake of power and we have talked about it and that there's no enduring democratic eto that motivates them there is nothing altruistic in their in their involvement with politics but they see politics as a basis as a as as a basis you know for self-aggrandizement and that is what we have seen over the years and so you wonder why a country like Nigeria after 60 years of independence finds itself in such a you know economic, political, quagmire you know morass it is simply because the people who we call politicians and are more or less a band of soldiers of fortune who you know have realized that there's a legitimate process for illegitimate acquisition of wealth and that process is to get into the political terrain you know under a system that is perverse and then make the most out of that system and so we have seen them feather their nest successfully you know smiling to the banks over the years whether as governors, as ministers, as presidents and so on and that is why a country that is so blessed with all manners of resources you know mineral and then you know human resources is following a mediocrity of course the politicians have not there's a saying that you know the the the person the human you know they've been you know Nigerian politician has learnt nothing and has forgotten nothing and that is why you are talking about what happened what transpired in the past few years in reverse state repeating itself you know again and in virtually every state of the country and this is I mean of course we all remember how the APC came to power just like you said in your opening they came to power they came to power because they wanted power and so they did everything to remove the government of the people having come to power they realized that they were not ready and that is why they have hardly been able to deliver you know as much as they should have delivered as a political party you know so what you see in terms of delivery is just mere tokenism you know within the political space so they they have forgotten nothing they have learnt nothing and that's why they continue to move along the same trajectory and you know you can like they say you cannot keep on doing the same thing in order to get a different set of resource so it is resist what they are known for it is the confusion they are known for that we are seeing so there's nothing new there's really no redeeming quality about the APC as a political party I don't want to talk about the other party because you also say the same thing about the but then the discussion we will get to the point where we in closing we will talk about it but but let's talk about some of the legalities Barista Logan we're taking this question to you let's talk about the legalities of these parallel congresses because now it's very difficult it's it's difficult to really know who who's who or who INEC is going to recognize because that's my question who will INEC recognize which congresses will INEC look at as the original congresses now I'm gonna I'm asking because according to the punch newspaper APC's national ketika chairman was present at the congress organized by the current governor in both Ogun state and I think Oshun state so it makes me really wonder which ones will INEC have to you know give a nod to in in this regard because it looks like almost half of half of the states across the country for the APC had parallel congresses Enugu state had parallel congresses also even though the one that the the one that was supported by the leadership of the APC had a different person emerging and there was another one that was held in another location so it makes a mess of everything how does INEC come in here and what's the legality in all of this INEC's position is very simple patches are expected to present candidates and from the body language of the APC from what we have been monitoring I think the governors in the states may have upper hand with their supporters against the parallel congresses and if that is the direction the party is flowing then you expect that candidates that are presented by the group loyal to the governor or the group that the governor is loyal to we eventually be presented so it's it's a function of power game well like I said earlier can the party at this point now look in words and consider the gap in the existing laws and come up with new laws that will prevent the sustainability of this present crisis for example is he wrong for instance if the party comes up with the rule that the movement the party decides to go on congress anyone who decides to have a private congress this is what will happen but it will not be allowed if we release that rather than being reactive for example look at a clause should be put it's seven of the electoral bill that has just been presented for the essence of the president it has specifically recommended direct primaries for the parties so right now indirect primary it's not even an option but in the absence of clarity you have what we call ambiguous law and when you have ambiguous laws it can be interpreted by anybody to flow in any direction so for anything to show leadership and maximize the benefits of victory at the polls they must come together and may I suggest there are about five steps to conflict resolution because you cannot rule out conflicts when you discourse a relationship management public relations you define the source of the conflict what is the source of the conflict that you're having within the party is it a sound field marginalized the different kinds of agitation just like what you have in the nation generally number two you look beyond the incident you know and you need a very strong management skills in this area you have to listen to the parties look at the the long-term effects of your decision and number three you request for solutions from the conflicting parties the number four you identify solutions that will be applicable to the parties that are conflicting with each other then you go to the point of agreement and you apply this agreement so that you can have unity and has it not been declared in the world of God in Amos chapter three verse three that can two work together except they be agreed it's still painful that APC lost out at those things I mean it was imagined that the God not then that was in APC was not going to flex enough muzzle to win at the polls but he did but we're having a repeat now in the country and in some of the stakes and what we have observed is that at the macro level we are yet to come to the point where government is interested in enhancing the fortunes of the people and as long as the selfish interests and politicking the unbridled ambition the career for power that is not engaged to maximize the results of the country are on the front burner we continue to have instances like this where they beat each other up you know scatter everything saying and it's really unfortunate that the democracy we have adopted we have so bastardized it that those who defined it may be struggling now to really come to the real definition of democracy because democracy is a government of the people by people and for the people and it must be to benefit the people it must be in the interest of the people or can we claim that that is where we are as a nation now so and they say that's a whole conversation on its own if you ask me but but lastly before we wrap things up people's democratic party the PDP seems to be somewhat for want of a better word gloating in the face of the APC as they have seen the results of you know the weekend congresses but again I'm curious what grounds does the PDP have you know in this regard being that it's very difficult to tell the difference or decipher between the APC and the PDP in terms of internal democracy being that I mean the only thing that differentiates them might just be the party logo but most of the people who are in these political parties have been on either sides of the divide before so should the PDP be in a position to again gloat in the face of the APC is it like you have rightly observed I think we are talking about politicians now and they either hold the broom or hide under the umbrella so basically the mindset of an average Nigerian politician is yet to come to the level of benefiting the people you see and that is why you may find it difficult differentiating between them by virtue of party nomenclature and by the way APC came up in 2013 with a bouquet of fragments of parties the Abga the CPC all of them coming together then I think we lost him let's see if we can get him back if not we will wrap up this segment Barca logo can you hear me and decide to serve the people well I think we lost him lost that connection with him but I want to say thank you um Gido Logan is a lawyer and of course Achike Chude is a political affairs analyst thank you very much gentlemen the internet internet connection there has been a bit shady but we thank you for being part of this segment we'll take a quick break and when we return the Nigerian government wants to monitor your whatsapp calls and text messages but Sarah disagrees with this move let's get to talk more about it after this break