 There's also a sort of two things going on in your book, right? Which is one is that capitalism has actually been incredibly good at driving these innovations forward It's capitalism that got us to this point. I would say that's not true. But yeah, you would say that's not true No, that's not true. Okay, go on. I think it's a real That's a real ideological claim to say that capitalism's got us here So if you look at rockets, yeah first rockets are going to space 1944 not many people know this was a v2 modified v2 past the Kalman line in 1944 the The majority of the US space program the post war period was basically the v2 rocket Vernevon Brown works on the Saturn V the backbone of the Apollo missions 1944 to 2008 anything that gets past the Kalman line a space in space is booked by nation states The first private business to be able to do that at the fourth attempt was SpaceX in 2008, right? 50 years after the Soviets 50 years build what how backward the Soviets were yeah, or they couldn't even put bread in their Supermarkets. Well in that particular technology, there were 50 years ahead of any private enterprise Now the point is now space is beginning to become profitable because space-based internet potential resources extraction, etc And it's the exact same story. We see with the banks in the crisis, right? You socialize the risk you socialize the losses you privatize the gains, which is precisely what's happening for instance around space so your question about Lots the innovation the innovation coming from capitalism. It's not coming from capitalism Well, I mean I suppose give me an example Give me a technology that was developed by market forces Well, not much of it was developed by market forces alone, right? But it's it's within the context of so the mode of production is capitalism that we live in right and then the taxes are then funding the research Yeah, you need you need a state who can fund. Yep, primary research, which will then be developed into a consumer product Yeah, usually by firm so look at the look at the iPhone for example We know that many of the technologies that went into it. We're from a state and then they sort of Partnered up. Yeah, some extent with businesses who made it into a consumable product. That's a social democratic argument, right? So that's to say it was mixed market economies with capitalists firms and Entrepreneurial states to use the words of none of none of it none of the technologies jet engine the internet top screens lithium-ion battery Solar cells whatever the material science that goes into wind turbines None of that has been developed by capitalism capitalism develops things for profit, right for returns now We've had a mode of cap without a certain genre of capitalism Which is by the way the elite are trying to get rid of which you're absolutely right Basically, it said the profits the private sector will pay for amongst other things R&D in the public sector and that will drive innovation the capitalist class of today no longer even want that No, true. Yeah, but that's an anti-near liberal. Yeah, but the idea that it's been it's been capitalism that's created those innovations That was what you initially said. Oh, so that's the idea that we can't have innovation without capitalism It's patently incorrect. What so for example say for example as a thought experiment You're saying about mass creating mask Creating mass consumer technology off the back of it We don't really have a counterfactual to say well, we don't we haven't lived in a post capitalist society Well, that's what I was gonna give you the counterfactual right because I assumed reading the book that you didn't think we should have had a communist revolution abolishing capitalism in 1917 everywhere because then we wouldn't have had this development of the productive forces. We don't know you might have had you can You can visit a successful revolution in 1919 in Germany very technologically advanced country I mean the Soviet Union's a difficult one because of course it was technologically backwards, etc Huge country very under very weak national institutions So let's say the the revolution in Germany works in 1919 the Weimar Republic Never happens, but the social more is the progressive attitudes are all there in a socialist Republic the technologies that form You know inform the Nazi project the Wunderwaffen they they created towards the end of the second world war Jet engines, etc. All that technological practice V2 goes into a socialist a socialist project Now it's perfectly possible that That socialist country would have had the highest standard of living in the world Would have been moving towards all and it's the first to develop photovoltaic energy It's the first photovoltaic cells rather it's the first to develop the the transistor the microprocessor the lithium I'm that's perfectly possible. We don't have that alternative. What we do know is to return to your original point The profit mechanism has not created a single important innovation for 50 years