 If you want to do more impactful work as a service design professional, you need to be part of conversations where you can have an influence. But once you are in those conversations, you need to know how to get people to buy into your ideas. How do you get that buy-in? That's what we're going to explore in this episode. Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, I'm Dr. Heather Walker, and this is The Service Design Show, Episode 185. Hi, I'm Marc Fontaine, and welcome back to The Service Design Show. On this show, we explore what's beneath the surface of service design, what are those hidden and invisible things that make the difference between success and failure. All to help you design great services that have a positive impact on people, business, and our planet. Our guest in this episode is Heather Walker. Heather is an organizational psychologist, and she's the CEO of Lead with Liberty, where she helps her clients to create the conditions for employees to do their best work together. And she's also the host of the Lead with Liberty podcast. I've said it before on the show. You won't get anything done as a service design professional if you can't get people to buy into your ideas. While that might be true for a lot of fields, this is especially relevant in service design. Why? Well, in order to design and deliver a great customer experience that spans across silos, we often serve as the glue between people, teams, and departments. We are not the ones responsible for turning insights into implementation. So partnerships are truly the only way to get things done and show impact. So being able to build these partnerships is a key skill. You need to know how you can get people to trust you and your ideas, whether that's your colleagues, clients, or the CEO, and not just in a way where they're not their head in agreement. That might be great for your ego, but it's not going to move you any closer to your goals. I mean in a way where they are willing to share their scares, time, resources, and attention with you. That's the kind of agreement you really need. The only problem is that no one has really thought us how to be good communicators. So therefore, we wrongfully assume that everyone has the same communication preference and style as we do. So we often fail to convey our message and that leads to disappointment and frustration. But the good news is that it doesn't have to be this way. Dr. Heather Walker specializes in helping professionals get buy-in for their ideas. So in this episode, we're going to explore what are the key skills that you need to develop in order to be a more effective communicator. What are the common pitfalls professionals fall into when they are trying to pitch their ideas? How do you make sure you don't burn out on rejection or failure to get buy-in? And how all this leads to more enjoyment and fulfillment in your work? I hope this got you excited for what's coming up because this is going to be a very special conversation. And we even extended because it was so interesting. So I hope you're ready, sit back, relax, and let's jump into the conversation with Dr. Heather Walker. Welcome to the show, Heather. Thank you, Mark. I appreciate it. I'm looking forward to having this conversation with you. Awesome. I'm looking forward to this as well. This is going to be a super interesting and relevant topic for many people who are listening. I already gave some teasers and spoilers in the introduction. But before we dive into that, I know that the audience always wants to know a bit more about who is that guest that you invited this time on the show, Mark. So could you give us a brief background into what you do these days? Ah, yes. Okay. I'm glad that you said what do you do these days? Not my whole entire life story, right? So hi, everyone. I'm Heather Walker. I'm an organizational psychologist, which means I study people in their natural habitat. And these days it's work because we spend so much time, so many hours of the best hours of our lives at work. And the goal is really to find ways for us to make work not just about the grind and the hustle and about money, but also how can we bring our passions into it? How can we enjoy what we do? How can we have an impact on the community, on the people at home, on the business, on our customers? So my whole goal has been on how can I support people at work so that they can thrive? They're not just surviving, they're thriving. Awesome. Already. Yeah. And you know, I live in Austin, Texas. And I don't know when this episode is going to come out, but what I can tell you is it is hot as Hades here in Texas right now. We've been under this huge heatwave record-breaking temperatures every single day. And it's pretty intense, Mark. I've been kind of dating other cities and thinking about where else might I be able to live in the summertime? Because this world is getting a little bit hotter than it used to be, you know? The Netherlands will be more than welcoming when you decide to cross the ocean. Oh, really? Really? That is awesome. Yes, I was actually in Europe this summer. And I would say, so I was in London, Paris, and then I also spent some time in Geneva. So I would love to explore even further and go check out the Netherlands as well. I hear really good things. Thank you for sharing this, but this isn't the only section where we get to know you as a person next to the professional because I have five questions in our lightning round, which I know you haven't prepared for and that's exactly the goal. Just the first thing that comes to your mind and we won't be exploring the answers any deeper. Oh, okay. That's good because it might get a little weird. It always does. That's the whole purpose. Are you ready? I'm ready. Let's do it. What's always in your fridge? Oh, no. Okay. So I always have ginger in my fridge because I absolutely love to make ginger shots and it's so good for you. So good for you. And I've gotten to the point where I've developed a huge taste for ginger. Noted. Which books are you reading at the moment, if any? Yes. So I can tell you currently a book that I'm reading is A Course in Miracles. Well, I'll add a link in the show notes for anyone who wants to dig deeper into that. Third question is, which superpower do you possess? Oh, okay. So I would say if I had to pick one superpower because I think I have some good superpowers. In fact, we all have good superpowers. One superpower that I possess is taking the time to really understand a person's gifts and skills and passions and what they're good at and helping them bring that to the surface. So I've been able to meet with people who maybe they didn't have a lot of confidence or they didn't see their own superpowers. They didn't see their own strengths. And through our conversations and through the work that we've done together, they've been able to say, oh yeah, I do know how to do this and I am good at that. And I've just been able to see people grow and coach them up into new and exciting positions that they really hadn't considered. So it's a superpower that has kind of developed and evolved over time. And I've noticed that from the work that I've done with junior members of my team, with others outside of my team who come to me and they're like, you know, I've got this situation and I don't know how to handle it. And by the time we're done talking about it, they realize, oh, I have more in my toolkit than I even realized. Awesome. And this is also connected, I think, to what we'll discuss in a minute. Two questions left. Okay. What is the best vacation that you ever had? I went once to, it was a cruise to the Caribbean and it was amazing. So on this cruise, there were all of these special elements of surprise and things like in the elevators, they had a piano person and he was a piano man in a clown outfit and he's just done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done. And people were hopping on the elevator and they were riding up, down, all over the place and they were having a party in the elevator. And, you know, little elements like that, I thought were just amazing. It brought out the child in me, right, and in everyone else. And so I would say one of my favorite vacations was actually on a cruise ship and I did not expect that at all because I always had this, this picture of, of cruise life, like, okay, you get on a boat, you go somewhere. I didn't realize that they had so much entertainment and fun things to keep people busy while they were on those cruises. Floating amusement park. Right. All right. Thanks. And fifth and final question, and I don't know if you have an answer to this because service design isn't your field of expertise, but did you hear about the field before we hopped on a call? Did you ever get in touch with service design in the past? All right. So I will answer your question. However, I'd like for you to answer a question before I do. Can you do that? I'll do my best. You'll try. Okay. Can you summarize service design in a nutshell for me? Yes. And I'll give you the classic example, a story-based example. So service design is the thing. Imagine having two coffee shops next to each other selling the exact same coffee at the exact same price. Service design is the thing that makes you walk into one of the coffee shops, not the other. Tell your friends about it and come back often. Okay. Because of certain differentiating factors that service designers build into the plan? The experience, how it makes you feel, how it aligns with your identity, basically everything beyond price. I have visual identities. What I can tell you is the answer, the short answer to your question is no. I hadn't heard of a service design professional before our conversation. However, there are other professions that are adjacent and related, right? You've got your marketing professionals. You have, in psychology, we have human factors, researchers and designers who are always thinking about technology and how can we make sure that this technology is designed in a way that's user-friendly? From a software standpoint, you have user UX designers, right? And people who are thinking about the interface and how can we make sure that the interface is something that's appealing and pleasing and is easy to use and navigate? So there are lots of adjacent professions, I think that also do similar work that I am familiar with. But the term service design professional, I hadn't heard that before we met. Yeah. Well, look at that. And you're absolutely right that service design is borrowing and stealing from a lot of adjacent fields and it's a very interesting melting pot of disciplines. So yes. This was the lightning round, Heather. And now we can sort of transition into the topic that we had set for today. And it's one of my favorite topics, how to get buy-in for your ideas. It doesn't want that. And how to get buy-in for your ideas while maintaining your energy, making care that your mental well-being is taking care of, just in general, your well-being. So this is a big topic, getting buy-in for your ideas. Let's first explore why is this topic on your agenda? Why is it on your mind? You know, this is a big challenge for any technical professional, right? When you have so much knowledge, so much expertise, and you have a passion for what you do. You want to help the organization. You want to help the community. And you have a process in place to do that. However, not everyone understands your process. Not everyone understands the language or what you do. And that can be a really tricky place to live in for technical professionals who are trying to figure out how do I translate what I know? Because I spent so much time learning how to do this thing. I believe in it. And I believe that they would believe in it, too, if they fully understood it. But how do I describe it in a way that will get them to understand and appreciate it on the same level that I do? So I've seen this personally in my field. So industrial organizational psychology is something that most people have not heard of. When I mentioned to them, I'm a psychologist, they immediately think, okay, counseling, clinical psychology, you know, are you psychoanalyzing me? What is that? And they don't automatically think business psychology. Oh, you help leaders grow. Oh, you help select really amazing people. Oh, you help create cultures where people can do their best work. They don't immediately think of those things. So it's on us as professionals to make that, to translate that for them and to describe it in a way that is clear for them so that they can get it and go, okay, yes, yes, I'm on board with you, I want to support you. So I've noticed that when we go to school, we learn how to do the job, but we don't necessarily learn how to sell our ideas to others, right? So you may, you may have to write a persuasive article or paper, you may every once in a while have to give a presentation that's persuasive once or twice in your college career. But that's not enough because every single day you have to get people on board. And if you're working in an environment that's not even the typical hierarchical structure. If you're working in a matrix environment where you have to assemble these project teams that aren't directly under you where you don't have authority over them, but you have to find a way to influence them. You're selling every single day, you're motivating every single day. So for me, this was a personal challenge that I had to work to figure out how can I put myself in a position where I'm, I'm connecting with an executive, and I'm connecting with them on factors that are really important to them, so that I can get funds because I'm competing with this project manager over here and this manager over there and they're all asking for money. They're all asking for time and more staff and, and for their initiatives to get passed. Who's going to win? It's going to be the person who has the most compelling argument, who has the best relationship, who has trust, has built up that trust and rapport. So I've just learned over time that this is something that has to be a part of our toolkit as well. It's, it's amazing because we didn't prepare it in this way, but I've been running a program called selling service design with confidence for the last four years. And this is exactly trying to address what you've just mentioned that it's, people can be great at their craft, but that doesn't make them be able to convince, persuade, communicate, articulate the value of the work to others. And especially in a field like service design and design, maybe in general, where collaboration is key, maybe even more than in other areas like you, you're selling each and every day, you have to, you cannot do this on your own. Very, very true. So it's a challenge that it's service design professionals face this challenge. Psychologists face this challenge. Project managers sometimes face this challenge. There's, there's lots of different professions that have to figure out how do I, how do I convince people that this is the right way that what I'm telling you is is credible and you need to listen and and this is is the best approach for us. Yeah, and that's a good thing that it's not just one profession who's struggling with this because this has already been figured out how to do is and we can learn from others. What some of these strategies what some of these skills are that we can leverage to actually get our message across. Yeah, I'm sure you have some ideas around that. But first, I'm curious if we generalize and look at how do people who sort of quote unquote fail at this? What do they do? How, how are they currently trying to get buy in? Okay, so I, let's talk through this. Let's talk through this because yes, you asked me how can we gain buy in. But you're so right. We can learn so much from not just success, but also failure, right? And one of the ways that that I've seen people fail in this regard is by starting with the how as opposed to the why. This is, this is the what and the how of what we need to do. So, you know, can you tell me a little bit about, give me an example project just we want to do research to learn about how patients use their new medical application. Okay, we want to figure out how our patients using this medical application that we put together, are they using it correctly, all of that. Okay, so you sit in front of your manager or whoever is holding the purse strings for this project and you say, Listen, we need to do research on medical, the patients to see how they're doing, how they're, how they're using this app. And they say, Great, tell me more. And then the person will proceed to talk about all of the nitty gritty details. Right. So they're talking to someone about maybe. Well, first we need to set up this screen and, and I need to make sure that we have XYZ number of people and they just start talking ad nauseum about the details of the project. And sometimes when you're talking to someone who's at a higher position, they got there because they have vision, they're strategic. In some cases, they, they care more about the impact, right. And, and sometimes technicians they'll get in they'll talk about the nitty gritty details, but they won't talk about the impact that it's going to have. So we, we really need to do this, because once we figure out what the patients are doing and how they're using this app, we can, we can reduce medical errors are our medical error rate, we can ensure that our utilization is going up. What is the actual impact that this is going to have on the patient on the community on the metrics that that person is interested in. So I've seen that happen sometimes where people will will start to talk about jargon and, and sort of the process, and instead of making sure that the person that they're talking to also understands why we're doing it and what impact it's going to have. Does that make sense. Yes, absolutely. And, and I know that I'm already being sort of corrected by the audience. We didn't like doing research on an app. Most likely the question will be broader like, okay, tell us about the life of these patients and how they spend and what they value what their needs and desires are. People listening, I've corrected myself. But the other question I have around this is, so if we jump into the how and into the process. Is that because we're so comfortable, whether we know we feel like we have expertise around it, or why do we skip to why maybe that's the question. Well, you know, Simon Sinek says that people people by the why, right, they get emotionally excited by the why. And then the what and how that will figure itself out. I believe that oftentimes we jump straight into the what and how, because we know too much. Right. We're, we know what it's going to take to get the job done. And we're thinking we're worried we're we're we're processing out loud and thinking out loud. And, and we think that if we share all of that detail if we do that brain dump, then they're going to understand and they're going to be tracking with us. But oftentimes we've lost them by sentence number three, you know, so I believe it's because we know too much about the details and what it's going to take and haven't taken the time to really take a step back before I even get into this conversation. What is the purpose of this conversation? What am I trying to do? And what am what am I trying to get them to feel and experience and understand with this conversation? Where do I want it to end? And based on that, what do I need to say? What do I need to talk about all of the details? If I don't, let me focus on something else. So I think there's a little bit of that because we know too much and then also we don't necessarily take the time to think about what kind of conversation do I need to have? Who am I talking to? And, and what is going to be the best level of information for them? I can imagine that sort of the rigor of knowing all the details in the process as a way to communicate credibility and sort of build, try to build trust with the other person as well. When I show the how it works and all the details, they'll trust me that I know what I'm doing and I'm the expert and they'll let me do my stuff. But that's not how it works, right? That's at some point, there is a point in time. There's a time and place and season for everything, right? And at some point, yes, you will walk through the nitty gritty details of everything, but it may be with a different team, right? So let's say the VP or the director approves the work, but then there's a project team that you need to meet with that will actually need to go through all of the details with you. But the director or the VP doesn't necessarily need that level of detail. They just need to know, is it going to work? And what is this going to do for me? What is this going to do for our company? How much is it going to cost? And that's, thank you for addressing that because this aligns again with knowing who you're talking to. And we should be, we as a service design community are just really good at that, showing empathy for the people who we work with and for. So that should be a piece of cake somehow that seems to still be a struggle. What happened? So we're having, let's focus, let's stay with the VP. We're having this conversation with the VP and we're trying to argue for resources, time, staff, budget, and it just doesn't click. It doesn't resonate where you're going to get asked to come up with more details or more evidence. We walk out frustrated out of the room. What do you see happening after that? So when you fail to communicate your message, what are the consequences? Depending on the nature of what you're working on and what you're trying to push forward, the consequences could be nothing or the consequences could be very dire, right? So I would say let's go back to the example that you gave before about we have two stores and they're both coffee shops and they're right next to each other, which that sounds like a bad idea to begin with. That you would put two stores of the same kind right next to each other. It almost reminds me, Mark, I hope it's okay if I go on a quick tangent. Okay. It almost reminds me of a Curb Your Enthusiasm episode. Have you seen Curb Your Enthusiasm with Larry David? No, I haven't. He's the maker of Seinfeld. Okay. Well, Larry David, for anyone who is not familiar with him, he's a crabby old man who gets himself into lots of trouble because he speaks his mind, he is wildly inappropriate, and yes, yes, it's fun to watch. He does all of the wrong things. And he was talking about basically he went to a coffee shop and he did not like the service that he received and he wasn't happy and he decided because he is rich because he created Seinfeld. So he has all this money. He decided that he was going to run them out of business by creating what he called a spite store. So he opened up a coffee shop right next door and he said my coffee shop is going to be even better. I'm going to drive more business to this coffee shop right next door and I'm going to drive you out of business. And so when you mentioned the two coffee shops right next to each other and what differentiates them, I couldn't help but think about the spite store. So going back to that example of the two businesses that are right next to each other, I have two products, two options, and the service designer is going to ensure that one option is superior to the other option. In that case, if they are not able to convince the CEO, the VP, the director, whoever is approving this, that they need to make certain changes so that this store is superior to the other one, then the consequence of that may be decreased sales. It may be, let's say, this is 2023 currently, but back when we were in the middle of the pandemic and retail stores were trying to figure out how do we and restaurants, how do we compete when everything is closed down and all of this? In a situation like that in a down market, it could mean that we have to close business because we decided not to make changes that could set us apart. There are several examples of companies that just decided, okay, we're going to continue with business as usual, and that was the death of that company. As the market continues to change, we need to continue to meet those changes and try and get out ahead of it if we can. If we can set the trend, that is an even better place to be. So yes, it can be nothing or it can be the future of the business, the organization that you're working at. If we go back to one of the things we said at the start regarding energy, mental health, well-being, getting rejected or not seeing your message resonate with the people around you, when is it just part of doing your work and sometimes you're here now and sometimes people just don't get it and you walk away? And when is the time that you sort of feel, all right, now I need help. When do people reach out to you? When does it become a problem? There are a few things here. When should they reach out for help to gain buy-in? Or when should they reach out for help because they're potentially facing burnout or something like that? Well, I would say you always fail to get buy-in from some people. It's just part of work, I guess. That's right. And I can imagine a lot of people go like, okay, yeah, well, too bad. This happens and how do you start recognizing there's more going on here? I need help. I'm going to do my best to answer your question because I think there are multiple aspects of this. If you've taken the time and I have sort of four steps to consider when you're trying to gain buy-in, first you want to make sure that you're connecting your initiative with those things that are important to your audience, right? And then you want to show the benefits of what you're doing. And then you want to share the framework. That's when you start to get into the, oh, I'm interested in what you have to say. Now I have questions. Okay, let's talk about the details, but don't marry the framework. Understand that even the best laid plans have, there's going to be something that comes and you're going to have to make some changes. You're going to have to adjust. So recognize that that's a part of nature. That's a part of the nature of the business that we're in. That said, if you've done all of those things, if you've taken the time and you know that the customer experience is something that's really important to this person, and you're using their language, you're speaking their speak. You know, if we do this, then we've heard through focus groups, through interviews, we've heard from our customers that this is what they want. And we have a solution for it. And I'm looking forward to partnering with you on this. If you've done that, if you talked about the benefits, if you, if you showed them that your plan makes sense, and they're still saying no. Then either there, there might be an issue with the relationship and the rapport that you've built up with them. Or there might be an issue with them. Right. So let me start with them. And then let me start with the then go to the report. So let's say something is up with them. I've definitely had moments in my career where I thought, man, this is a good plan. Why are they saying no, why am I hitting a roadblock here? Well, it's because that person has insight into other things that are happening. And they may know that, you know what, we're not going to implement this because there might be a round of layoffs coming. Or we're about to acquire this company over here or this product, we're going to do something completely different. We're going to go in a completely different direction with this product. So they may have some insight that they have not shared with you. And that could be the reason why so it has nothing to do with you. Or what I've noticed recently is that some people are overwhelmed themselves right now. So even if it's something that they are super passionate about and they're interested in it, they are underwater and overwhelmed with their calendars and their schedules themselves. And anything that you talk to them about is going to feel like this is overwhelming. It's too much. I can't handle this. So in those situations, it becomes helpful to ask, you know, is there anything that would prevent this from being a good plan, a good solution? Do you know of anything that's coming that I should be aware of? You can also, if it seems like they're overwhelmed and you can see signs when people are overwhelmed with their calendars or calendars are full and they seem flustered in meetings and things like that. They're less responsive than they used to be. If that's the case, then you may want to see if you can take some things off of their plate. So if your plan involves them doing this, this, this, this, this and this, then they are the bottleneck and it's possible that they know that. And anything that you can do to take some of that off their plate might be helpful. So if you were able to give them a plan that didn't involve them doing anything except saying, yes, go forward, then that might be able to take away some roadblocks for you. So, so that's a couple of things that come to mind if this situation is, is them, if the situation is rapport that you've built up with them or lack thereof. You might want to just take a step back and think about all of the interactions that you've had with them in the past and what has helped what hasn't helped how much trust have you built up with this individual. And if you haven't built up that much trust by this point, if you're new to your position or if something you had some conflict in the past, it would be a good time to start to look at your network and see who is aligned with you who also has a good relationship with that person who you can you can talk to talk to your your colleague and say, hey, I'm I need your help. I'm I really think that this is the best way forward for us. I need your help to craft some messaging for XYZ person. Can you support me? Can you help me with this? Would you mind talking to them? Maybe even to see what they think about it and get some intel for me. So you might be able to enlist and enroll your network, especially if you have someone in your network that they trust more than they trust you. Does that make sense? Yes, absolutely. Thank you for sharing this. So the way you're describing this is sounds as is as this is a very deliberate and almost systematic approach to communication and building relationships and getting your message across. And I'm wondering before you get to that point where you sort of recognize, I need to skill up. I need to have a better approach. I need to have a better process. Is there there must be an epiphany moment where you sort of see, OK, the way I'm, I don't have a structure. I don't have a process to actually communicate. What happens in that in those early stages where people are sort of unaware where you're trying to figure out the best way to communicate with different individuals? Yes. So I'm imagining that there will be a lot of people out there who aren't even aware that there is a systematic approach to communicating and selling their message. When do you start recognizing that you need to learn? You need to get better? Have you, are there like any specific roadblocks that people run into and go, OK, this was the tipping point for me. Now I need to go study and buy a book or... Don't wait for a tipping point. Don't wait for some colossal failure where you're being walked out of the office because you have a little self-awareness and everyone around you knows that communication is something that you need to work on. Don't wait for that. There are so many assessments. There are so many assessments that you can take to learn about your own style and I would say start there. Start with you and figure out what are your own communication gifts and what are your own communication habits, right? Habits and preferences. Because we all have different styles of communication and preferences when it comes to the kind of information that we want to process and how we receive that information. So you can take something as simple as a disc assessment to learn a little bit more about your style. Are you the kind of person who likes to drive for results and are you the get it done kind of a person where you want the bullet points and then you want to be pointed in the right direction so that you can just let me know. I'll put it on my checklist and it'll be on your desk by Friday. Are you that kind of person? Are you the kind of person who is a people person who gets along really well and you can navigate through a crowd and you can mix and you can mingle and you like the attention and you enjoy being around people? Could someone give you a microphone right now and you could just kind of spitball and start talking? Are you that kind of person? Or are you on the flip side? Are you more of a slow, deliberate, reflective person where you appreciate good processes and procedures and you need instructions and you need to know what are we doing? I'm going on vacation and I am plotting every little detail out. My suitcase is well lined up. Everything is beautifully packed. Are you that person who's just a little bit more reserved? Or are you also deliberate but you want to make sure that everyone has an opportunity to give their feedback and input and you are the glue, the social glue with your group and your team. And you're going to go and say, hey Karen, what do you think about this idea? And Bob, what do you think about this idea? And then you'll take all of that and form a plan based on that. Figure out what your style is first because that will help you know that's my come from state. That's my starting point. And if I'm working with someone who is very different style, then it's going to require a little bit more energy on my part, a little bit more intention on my part to make sure that I am delivering messages in a way that they would appreciate. So if I am slow, deliberate and more of a process oriented person and I'm talking to someone who is a hard driver and they get it done, what do we need to do? Go, go, go. I don't bring the spreadsheet and all of the data and all of the details. No, I come with the top three priorities. And then if they want to talk details, I have that ready. So you will want to learn about yourself. And then there are also assessments like I use disk because I'm certified in it, certified to facilitate that. And what I love about it is they also have an assessment that will help you think through how to sell to each of those styles, each of those four styles and how to tailor your messaging, your approach. Do you need to drink coffee before you go talk to this person so you can, you can increase your energy level, meet them where they're at, right? So there are little things, little subtle cues that can help you demonstrate to another individual that I am relatable and I understand where you're coming from. I see things the way you see them. Let's do business together. And it's not to manipulate, but it's to help you become a more effective professional. So I would say that's why I say, don't wait, don't wait until something bad happens. Start to start to invest in this now because you have an opportunity to practice your communication skills and your techniques every single day, not just at work, but at home and in the community as well. So anything that you do to invest in your communication is going to pay dividends across every aspect of your life. And the the message I'm getting here and I think this is like maybe often the blind spot is becoming aware that there are that there are different communication styles and preferences. It's so easy to project your own preference and maybe even unconsciously assume that everybody else has the same and therefore sort of you lack understanding or empathy for the other people. And starting with yourself already opens up like the world. So there are other ways people prefer to consume information and get engaged and get experience. So yeah, don't wait. Yes, it makes a lot of sense. Yes, yes. And if you want to be effective with those individuals, you've got to learn because if you are delivering the message in many ways, the responsibility, the onus is on you. To ensure that that message is clear and and that your communication is understood. So you want to be as clear as you can but you also want to check in with them to make sure that you're delivering it in a way that they can appreciate and understand too. The thing here might be that and I fully agree with you that if you want to be an effective professional, you need to be an effective communicator. I've heard some responses in the past where people said, you know, I'm just here to do my job. I need to be the best at my job and it's up to other people to sort of upscale themselves to understand what I do. What do you, what do you say to those individuals with all their different preferences of consuming information? Yes, yes. I used to be one of those individuals. So I can confidently say that that influence is also a part of your job. So it's, it's a softer skill that you will need to develop to be effective at your job to do your job. So it's something that originally when I started out in business, I was not, I was not coached up in that way where I thought, oh, yeah, I've got to, I've got to shift my messaging. I've got to make sure that I have a good network. I've got to do all of this stuff. I thought that if I'm a really good professional and I know my stuff, then that's going to be enough. But that's all that, that will create is putting you in a corner where no one will talk to you, you know, there will be a place for you in the business. They'll give you a job, but it won't be a job where you'll have a lot of influence and you'll be behind the scenes. So if you want to be in a position where you're having a higher impact on, on the business on the community with the work that you're doing, you have to add in that people component and get that right where you're starting to think about how can I influence this person and what messaging is going to work for them because, yeah, otherwise, like I said, they'll put you in a corner office somewhere and you will never see or hear anybody. And if you're okay with that, then fine, but, but it will limit your growth potential, ultimately. And I think that's, again, a very valid point and something that someone needs to engage with themselves. Do I, like, I see a lot of frustration coming out of the fact that people don't get to work on the challenges where that they feel are meaningful that are fulfilling, that are bigger, they want to make a bigger impact. And if you're not getting that opportunity, and you do the sort of reinvestigating how you're communicating, how you're showing up might be sort of the best way you investing you can do other than reading another book on service design. Yes, yes. You know, traveling, traveling, maybe this, this will, this will help. It certainly helped me, because I love to travel. And when I go to other countries, it is a humbling experience for me, right. And, and it can be a humbling experience for many, especially if you're not fluent in the language of the country or the location that you're going to. So for example, I've, I've been learning French for years, and man, I still can't speak French. And when I go, they don't understand the words that are coming out of my mouth, even though I'm speaking French. And so, so even though I have a PhD, and I can do good work, and I can get a lot of things done. If I can't order a croissant at the restaurant, I am not effective. Right. I'm not going to get that much done. They're going to look at me and they're going to say, wow, she just said, please, can I have a chicken and tortilla sandwich, what, you know, like, what did she just say it didn't make any sense. And, and it can be like that sometimes when you're talking to someone who it has a different style. You are, you might be talking and what you're saying makes a lot of sense to you, but all they hear is want, want, want, want, want, want, want. And, and in that case, if that's all they hear, and they are in a position where they have something that you need, they have resources, they have time, they have talent, they have something that you need. If they don't understand what you're saying, you're not going to get anywhere. And the best thing is you have a choice. So if you're not effective right now, it's not like it's hopeless. You can learn these skills, you can learn these frameworks, you can learn a process, you can build your confidence. There are a million things you can do, which is, which is great gives us hope. We have to sort of start wrapping up. I know I've been. Wow. Yeah, exactly. We didn't even talk about what they can do to kind of take care of themselves is something that is is big among service design professionals. I'm happy to spend a few minutes there. I don't think I've heard a word burnout all that often, but what I do see is that people lose the passion for the practice. They either quit or they get disappointed. They, I lost the words, but yeah, there was a lot of disappointment. Yeah. Yes, yes. They feel like I was sold a dream. I was told that I could do all of this amazing stuff with this degree, with this position. And I got here and no one's letting me do anything. That's about right. And the adding to the factor here is that you're doing very purposeful work. You're trying to humanize an organization. You're here for a good cause and still like you're not getting the recognition or the respect that you feel you deserve and some point things crumble down. Okay. So when it comes to, there are a few things here. One thing that I really wish that I got at the beginning stages of my career was change management training. So there, let me ask you this, service design professionals, I am making an assumption that they work with project managers closely. I'm assuming that as well. Okay. All right. So we're going to roll with that assumption. Now, the wonderful thing about project managers, they get a lot of respect oftentimes because they are able to put all of the widgets and the timelines and the resources together and organize it and crack the whip and make change happen. Right. They can make sure that let's say you're rolling out a new technology that it actually gets rolled out. What they don't have in place is how do we manage the people side of the change. So they may be managing the process. They may be managing the technology. But what we have to recognize is that we're not changing Microsoft teams. We're not working with robots. Let me take that back. We're not working with robots. It's easy to flip the switch and say we're going to roll out teams and it's going to happen Tuesday at 5pm, flip the switch, bam, we have a new process. But people require much more to be able to make those changes. They require information. They require a reason why they need to be motivated to make those changes. They need to know, is this going to benefit me? Are they're going to be having fears that need to be addressed? Is this going to replace my job? Is this going to be hard for me to do? Am I going to be in trouble if I don't do it? They're going to be looking to their managers for that information. They're going to be looking to leadership for that information. And so you need to make sure that you are also thinking about how you're going to communicate the why and get people really interested. Like, here's what we're doing. This is why you should want to do it. So they're aware and they're interested. And we're addressing potential resistance that is inevitably going to come up and we're going to also be gathering feedback from them along the way. We're going to be reporting back so that as the project management team is rolling things out and they're implementing these changes, we can also ensure that people, that those changes work for the people who need to work the tools. So that's something that I really wish that I dove a little bit more into at the beginning of my career, because a lot of the stuff that I'm talking about right now comes from change management, best practices and principles. And it's all about the psychology of change and the psychology of how can we ensure that we're not just flipping the switch. Because people, people aren't, you know, switches, right? And everyone has a different sort of requirement when it comes to the kind of information they need, when they need to receive that information, who needs to deliver the message because I respect this person more than I respect that person. So that's important as well. And then also how are we reinforcing the changes that we're implementing. So when you talk about being disillusioned and stepping away from the craft because you're frustrated, a lot of that frustration comes because we're doing so much work and we're grinding and grinding and grinding. And we're waiting to celebrate, like in our minds, we're thinking, I will, I will say, yes, I did a good job. I'll pat myself on the back when this is done. Guess what? These projects take sometimes a year, like two years, you know, they're long term projects that you're rolling out. If you wait that long to take a vacation, if you wait that long to say, wow, we did a good thing here, you are missing an opportunity to continue to motivate yourself and your team and others as they go through this because I've seen it as well where project teams will, they'll roll out a new tool or a new process. But then right after that happens, it's almost like the team just disappears because everyone quits, you know, the lead quits and then people under the lead start quitting because they're tired. They did the work, but they're so exhausted. And that's a huge missed opportunity for an organization because now you're missing a lot of institutional knowledge and really good people that you put on this project. Who are your high performers who are now gone because they're tired and they aren't feeling like their work was worth it. You know, so I've been talking a lot, so I'm going to pause. Yeah, I definitely want to spend a few more minutes here. So yes, often these are, especially when you're in a house as a service example professional, these initiatives can take years. And like you said, when you wait sort of till you've reached the end of the rainbow to celebrate, that's going to require a lot of patience and it requires patience in general. But your energy, your reward system is going to be tested a lot. Like what I've seen and I'm interested to hear your perspective on this is a way to mitigate this. Find things you can celebrate on a daily or weekly basis and recognize, like reframe what success and progress looks like. Is that something that you've also seen? Oh, yes, for sure. And I would even say, you know, it's kind of like, like a car. You would not run a car straight for two years. You without any maintenance, without any rest or breaks or anything like that. And that's what we're seeing. We're seeing people working nights, weekends, they're in meetings all day to make this stuff happen. And, and we need to start seeing these small celebrations as a part of our maintenance plan for ourselves. It's not a nice thing to have anymore. It's a requirement. Your body needs this mind, your spirit, your energy needs to be restored and refreshed from time to time. And because we're working so hard, it is very important for you to start to think about implementing some, some wins, some celebrations sooner rather than later and more frequently. So I would, I would completely agree with that, figuring out, you know, what can you celebrate? So we got approval on this. We're going to celebrate. Let's go get some ice cream. Hey, we, we got the team together. We hit this milestone at every milestone, celebrate that because work had to happen to make that occur. And you can't take it for granted that, that those things happened because everyone's so busy. So being able to celebrate also shows a level of appreciation for the process and what you're doing. You're going to feel so much better in your team will too. Yeah. One thing I want to say about this is that people who've been following the show know that I run a community for in house service designers. And one of the things we've introduced there is to, you know, monthly roundup email to share wins of the people who are part of the community. And it does two things. One, it forces you to think about, oh, hey, what was what was my win? And the other thing that happens is that the people who sort of read about the wins that happened in the community, expand their vocabulary about what success looks like. I think there is also like a challenge where people just don't know what to celebrate. Like what, what is success? And that's been very effective so far. Yes, yes. You know what? So I know we're running out of time, but I just have to say this because hopefully I feel like this is going, someone needs to hear this. So some of us were raised in environments where nothing was ever good enough, right? You have a high standard of achievement. Your parents were like, okay, you need to get your A's. You need to be at the top of the list. You need to be number one at all times. And if, if you were raised in that kind of environment, it might be hard for you to say, I'm going to celebrate small things because you're so used to putting off your celebrations until you have, you have conquered, right? Until you have achieved number one status. And, and I think that's where some of that disillusionment comes in because outside of school, once you get into a work environment, there's no, there's no grade at the end, right? You might get a performance review at the end of the year, but it's just not the same where you can say, yes, I've conquered and we've done this thing and it was perfect. It can't be perfect because there's so many factors that go into it and so many people that are involved. It's not all on you anymore. So I would encourage you to, if this is you and it's something that you struggle with, I'd encourage you when you start to feel that resistance, like why would I celebrate small things? Ask yourself, where does that come from? Where does that resistance come from? And does that serve me? Is, is that, is that fueling me in a way that allows me to continue this work in a, in a joyful way? Or is that mindset creating a sense of frustration? Is it draining me? Is it making me crabby in my job? Really takes some time to reflect on where is that resistance coming from? Such an important message. And I was thinking while you were sharing this about the metaphor of running a marathon, if like your only way to measure success is the time, your end, end time, then all the struggle, all the training, all the hard work you've put in, it will, it will feel like work and it will be very hard versus celebrating the journey towards running that marathon. Like, I, I put on my shoes today and went out for 20 minutes. Let's celebrate that. Then the end result will be, it might be still important. You still might want to come in first, but you have enjoyed the process so much more. And I think when we look at the type of work services and professionals do, it often feels like it is a marathon. Yes. Celebrate the fact that you went outside and put on your shoes today that it's worth celebrating. I love it. I love it. I completely agree with that mark. So, Heather, any recommended resources that people could consult after this conversation, just a few to start with? Well, one thing that I can recommend because we didn't talk about it as much. Let me see if I can find it. Sorry, I didn't come prepared with specific resources. But I have a workshop that is all about self-care and how you can ensure that you are creating a toolkit for yourself to reset, especially when you're starting to get frustrated, right? And you're thinking, this work is work work. There is a book that I will make sure that your listeners that you have access to, that it's based on, that is so good. And the book is actually called Reset. And it is a guide that can help you put together a self-care toolkit. All right. I don't have it on me, but I will make sure. I'll make sure. I'll add it in the show notes. Yes, we'll put it in the show notes. It is an excellent book for them to read. And then also I would encourage them to reach out to me. You can reach out to me at Heather at leadwithlevity.com. I deliver workshops on resilience, on self-care, on gaining buy-in, on all of these things. And I would love to talk to you as well as your team about what you can do to ensure that you're supporting yourselves while you do all of this good work that you do. And I would encourage everybody who was even lightly inspired by this to check out the resources and connect with you. And yeah, just dig deeper into this topic because I'm sure we could have dig deeper for another hour. Yes, I feel like we barely scratched the surface. It's always the same thing with these interviews, regardless of how much time we have. Heather, one final thing. If somebody made it all the way to here with us and still is, what do you hope is the one thing that they will remember from this conversation? I would say the one thing that I would like for you to take away from this conversation is that you are amazing. And the work that you do is amazing. Make sure that you are also taking the time to learn more about how you can communicate what you do to others in a way that they can support you and they can rally behind your cause. Once you unlock that, everything else will come naturally for you. On that note, one day I'm going to aspire to have your job. It seems like such an amazing position to be in and be able to help people in that way. So thank you, Heather, for doing what you do, coming on the show, inspiring us and sharing this message. Thank you, Mark. I really do appreciate it and I absolutely enjoyed this conversation. What's your biggest takeaway from this conversation with Heather Walker? Leave a comment down below and let's continue the conversation over there. I'd love to hear from you. If you've made it all the way to this moment, please do me a quick favor and click the like button. Not to feed the algorithm, now that's irrelevant. But to let me know if we're on the right track by addressing topics like this. My name is Mark Fontaine and I want to thank you for spending a small part of your day with me. It was an absolute honor and pleasure. Please keep making a positive impact and I look forward to seeing you very soon in the next video.