 Welcome to this edition of Vantage Point. I'm here with the Reverend Chanda Rani Ja, who is the director of interfaith programs at East Bay Housing Organizations in Oakland, California. She also is the director of the Oakland Peace Center that you'll hear more about. She has a book titled, Pre-Post, Racial America, Spiritual Stories from the Frontlines, which was endorsed by Publishers Weekly and published by the disciples Chalice Press in 2015. Her book explores the idea that the division of races in America prevents us from becoming a post-racist society, creating a deadlock of understanding in cultures, perspectives, and stories. Welcome, Reverend Ja. Thanks to the United Congregational Church in Tallinn, which is a cosponsor of Reverend Ja's visit here in the Connecticut Conference of the United Church of Christ. So, Reverend Ja, you have, your heritage is located in two cultures, a Scottish culture and an Indian culture. So how do you, to begin with, apply your cultural background from which you come to do the work that you do in racial justice work? There's a famous theologian, his name's Paul Tillich, and he was really active in political theology when he was in Germany. He was a strident opponent of Hitler. When he came to the United States, he experienced so much of a sense of gratitude for the country receiving him in the midst of the turmoil in his own country that he really hung up his hat as far as political theology and didn't do much of that ever again. I mention that because I think there's something about the first generation immigrant experience that often has to do with our goal is to survive and to navigate these systems, not necessarily to critique them. And the interesting thing about having a mother from Scotland and a father from India is my mother's Scottish upbringing, while different than a United States experience, was close enough to it that she had a certain amount of comfort critiquing what was broken about American society, whereas my father had more of a sense of how do I navigate the system. And I think that's partly because it was harder to navigate it with English being his, I want to say third or fourth language because he's really smart. And because in India, everybody picks up a few languages, right? And so his goal was more about navigating the systems. So I learned a lot of my critique of what was broken around race in America from my Scottish mother. So I think in some ways I'm grateful for having both of those cultural backgrounds. My father who's Bengali has really raised me with a sense of reconciliation and deep relationship as a foundational value. My mother who's Scottish, Scottish Presbyterian, she has raised me with a fierce sense of justice. And I think both of those shape who I am. Quite a combination. Yeah. So as you think about the work that you do, work in social justice movements, is there a scripture verse or a story from scripture that is a touchstone for you in the work that you do? You know, repeatedly throughout the epistles, there are, I think it shows up in First John. I think it definitely shows up in James. There's this notion of how can you say you love your God in heaven if you don't love your brother when you've never seen God in heaven, but you see your brother on the street every day. How can you say that you love God when you don't treat your neighbor with dignity? Or when you say to a hungry person, go forth with the love of God and feel fed instead of actually providing food? I think that was an issue that the early church was wrestling with was let's not get caught up in pretty language when there's actual work to be done. I think foundationally, that's kind of the core of anti-racism work is it's not just about the right words, the prettiness of it. It's about actually getting into the muck and getting the work done. So let's get into the muck a little bit in particular this context, the Connecticut Conference in the United Church of Christ. The majority of our churches are comprised of Euro American people and you talk in your work about sharing collective stories, the importance of storytelling to shape narrative and I'm curious, recognizing our context, are there values of internal conversations being had within similar groups and could you speak to that? So I have two quick thoughts on that, one of which is when the disciples of Christ were starting our anti-racism work, Chris Hobgood was one of our trainers and he went out to the Oklahoma region and they said we're all white we don't need to work on this and he said your churches are all white and you live in a state that is heavily populated by Native Americans. The fact that that's a reality means you have to be doing this work and you need to find ways to be in relationship with the Native Americans in your community and you have to be in internal conversation about why your churches are all white. Yes. There are a couple of great organizations doing really really important work around internal dialogue among white folks around white supremacy and white privilege, showing up for racial justice which is a project of the Highlander Folk School and the Catalyst Project which emerged informally out of the Unitarian Church are both really great examples of that I know there are others. In Connecticut, the African American population is almost 12 percent, the Asian American population is 5 percent, it's a 15 percent immigrant state and so if our congregations are primarily white, there's some really important conversations we need to have about why that is. It's not by accident, it's not necessarily by intent on the members of the congregations but in a country shaped by systemic racism, it's not accidental that we've been kept out of relationship with each other and that's an important thing to investigate. Thanks, that is an important piece. The title of your book is intriguing and I wonder what differences you see between a post-racial society versus being a post-racist society. Yeah, that's a great question because I always think of it in terms of non-racist versus anti-racist and I think I'm concerned about the language of post-racial because people see it as an aspirational thing as if it's something we should be striving towards and I think we shouldn't be aspiring to post-racial because I think there's something powerful about our racial and cultural backgrounds that actually have a lot to offer each other. The language I would use is anti-racist because I believe that racism is a sin in this country that will continue to crop up in multiple different manifestations whenever you take care of one way it shows up it'll show up in a different way so I think the call for us is to be anti-racist that's the only way we can maybe someday be post-racist although I think that might be a in the hereafter kind of vision. Yeah, it might be a Moses thing we may not get there. Exactly. We may not actually find it. But we can be a part of building it. Yes. So let's, people that are interested in vantage point are mostly people from our congregations so I want to speak specifically about churches and in particular what is the role of people of faith in promoting a new vision a new way forward considering that we're in a time where divisiveness is actually lifted up as a value rather than unity. So what's the what from your perspective can people of faith and congregations do around this work what should we be engaging in? Yeah, I think one of the really important things is to avoid the trap of trying to be polite. I feel like there's a difference. There are a lot of multicultural congregations where they say isn't it great that we can all worship together and that's the end of the conversation and that's wonderful but there's something different going on in the churches that celebrate the diversity that lift up the stories of people where instead of everybody assuming everybody's got the same experience we actually create the space for people to tell their own stories and I mentioned that because the role that churches can play in the midst of this divisiveness isn't just to model multiculturalism but to give voice to it because we're in a moment where the voices that are being heard are the ones that are perpetuating hate and what we need to hear are counter examples what we need to hear are celebrations of diversity. Here in Connecticut the idea of autonomy is just below Jesus as the head of the church as an ethic that we aspire to in many of our congregations the idea of autonomy being translated as we are free to be who we are and maybe ignore that we're actually bound together in relationship with each other. We believe that interdependence is a pre-existing condition that all of us are actually connected one to the other so we're talking together about what that means for our work life what that means for our ministry so could you comment on interdependence and what you see kind of just give some reflection about what interdependence means in your context and what are the challenges behind interdependence? Yeah and I don't tend to talk about this too much but there are costs I mean I often talk about the myth of independence in America because foundationally our Bible talks repeatedly about us in a community context but I think one of the things we need to pay attention to is there are costs to this notion of independence which has as its shadow side isolation and loneliness and a sense that we have to do things for ourselves racism has significant impact on both communities of color and on white communities and we don't always talk about the impact it has on white communities and I think a lot about the suicide rates among straight white men that are incredibly high in this country and I think the burden of the myth of independence and the isolation and the not being allowed to be vulnerable with each other is a large part of where that comes from part of what I love about the work of the Oakland Peace Center is it's a lot of scrappy small organizations going up against systems of economic and spiritual and violence in the streets that we know we can't solve by ourselves and we know we're stronger when we're together most of us are most of us are people of color most of us are financially struggling so we have a little more freedom to be vulnerable with each other and have cultivated some trust in each other that has made for a powerful movement it's some of the hardest work to do in dominant culture communities because the myth is this is what success looks like and it's always by yourself and there are huge costs to that yeah there are I I'm intrigued you had spoken earlier about the Oakland Peace Center that you're the director of yeah could you just quickly say a little bit about what that is and how that came to be I think it's a fascinating story and that some of our churches might be really absolutely so I'm really proud of the people who make up First Christian Church of Oakland I went to pastor them about 10 years ago and there were 10 people in a 40,000 square foot facility and just to give that context we were worshiping in a sanctuary that was built for 400 people but they were all people who had grown up in Oakland and it was mostly people of color because all of the white people had moved away white flight had occurred and impacted that church significantly so they decided to turn the building into something that could be their legacy and what they knew was the impact of violence in their community and they knew they wanted to contribute to healing the violence and so we recognize there were lots of folks in our community doing work out on the perimeters by themselves in isolation what would happen if we created a space that could bring those folks together so we could all work together on those solutions so the those 10 folks have turned that 40,000 square foot facility into a collective of 40 different organizations working together to create peace in Oakland it's an incredible thing it is wonderful so with a few minutes we have remaining there's a lot of conversation going on around the Black Lives Matter movement would you offer your reflections on on what you think that's how that's involved with the work that you're doing and how that movement of young African-American people can help help us as a conference understand the racial tensions and divide that we feel right now absolutely um so I'm really involved with a solidarity movement called Asians for Black Lives because we recognize the need to be in solidarity in a culture that is shaped primarily by anti-blackness and the role of Asians within America is mediated in relationship to where we fall in that spectrum of white and black so it's it's a great organization I had I was visiting a church not too long ago and somebody said can you tell me theologically how you can be okay they actually said can you tell me why you're not offended theologically by the statement that Black Lives Matter and I said I'm not offended by it for the same reason that I'm not offended by liberation theology because in that theology which is deeply biblical the argument is made that God has a preferential option for the poor that's the fancy language for it what it means is God is actually more invested in the people on the margins and it's hard to argue with that Jesus actually says I didn't come to to heal those who are well I came for those who are sick over and over and over God throughout the Hebrew Bible and Jesus throughout the gospels stands first and foremost with people on the margins with women with people who are ethnic minorities with non-Jewish people and so Black Lives Matter is a powerful statement that tests whether we want to stand with God where God stands and God stands with the people who are most marginalized in a country that's shaped by a culture of anti-blackness to not stand there I think is theologically dangerous. Thank you so much we are so grateful Reverend Jaffer for your presence in this conversation today we could talk for a lot longer but we're not going to do that we want to thank you for for being here in the Connecticut Conference for bringing your leadership and your wisdom and insight to us thank you again for being with us thrilled to be with you thank you so much we thank you for joining us for the conversation and look forward to you at the next vantage point what Saturday March 12th all day super Saturday I wonder what that's about ladies if you heard about Super Saturday yeah we're really excited about it why are you excited I'm really excited to meet some new friends and meet some new people I'm excited to hear Tracy Blackman speak I saw her speak last year and she just gave me chills are you excited about Super Saturday you bet I'm going to be leading a workshop for folks who are chaperones at the national youth event hi Emily did you hear that Tracy Blackman is coming she's amazing and the facility at Killingly High School is really nice you should definitely go so what do you like best about Super Saturday oh worship in the workshops hear a prophetic word from our speakers and I'm actually really excited about workshops so much is super about Super Saturday super speaker number one Tracy Blackman who is the new executive for justice and witness ministries is going to be our keynoter I'm also excited about the location of Super Saturday first time Connecticut is hosted this event we're going to be at Killingly High School Saturday March 12th Killingly High School Tracy Blackman workshops meeting new people making new friends be there