 Think Tech Hawaii, civil engagement lives here. Good morning, aloha everybody. My name is Mark Shklav. I am the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. And today we're going to talk about winning and losing and whether it's worth the risk. We're talking about sports, a subject that we all like to participate or watch on TV. But there's another aspect of it. The risk involved in sports. Catherine Norr is a Hawaii attorney. And she's an author. Her focus is sports risk management. And I'm going to talk to her today about what that means. It's a subject that we should probably learn a lot more about if we participate or watch sports. So Catherine, welcome. It's good to see you. Good morning, Mark. Thank you for having me on the show. Well, it's an area of law that I'd like to learn a little bit more about. Sure. What is sports risk management? Well, in Hawaii and everywhere else in the country, we're quite litigious. And so we're. Even layers are litigious. Absolutely, people are. And certainly sport events and sporting activities, they need to protect themselves from lawsuits. And in doing so, they need to develop a strategic practice where they actually attempt to be safer and to try to prevent lawsuits and minimize liabilities. And so the sports risk management is an area of is it law or is it sports or is some combination of the both that tries to meld those two ideas together and take care so that the risk is less? When I got involved in this as an insurance defense attorney, I thought, what would happen if I was involved in combining insurance, law, and sport? Because those were my passions. And so I came up with sports risk management. And I found out that it was an area that was a very interesting area where I could try to become an expert. And so I wrote a book on it. And I've been speaking internationally about it for many years. So how does it affect our daily lives of sports here in the United States? How does sports risk management affect what we watch on TV or what we participate in in sports? Well, recently there have been changes I'll give you an example regarding baseball. Lately, the MLB has decided to increase the netting at stadiums for baseball. And what that does is make it safer for attendees. They have less likely chance of being hit by a ball. I mean, you might say that they want to be hit by a ball because they want to catch the ball. And of course, that's what they go to the baseball game for. However, think about how we act in our normal lives. We have our phones up and are looking at our phones all the time. So now it's even more dangerous to go to a stadium because while you're looking at your phone, you could be hit by a ball. Right. And so the netting is to try to eliminate lawsuits. Would that be right? Well, I think the question is just the injury, our both. You know what, let's say that we're being altruistic here and we're saying, we want to keep people safe. But by doing so, you might not have a lawsuit or you might not have an insurance claim. Right. And how about some other sports that we watch, like football? I've noticed a lot about there's a lot of talk about concussions and that type of thing. Is that what we're talking about with sports risk management also? Absolutely. One of the biggest issues with regard to sport risk management is concussions. And it's not only trying to prevent them, but also what do you do after an athlete has a head injury? How do you, what do you do in the training room? When do you put them back on the field? And what guidelines does a particular football organization use with regard to concussions, preventing them and also behaving after it occurs? And I noticed also basketball. There's some playoffs going on. And when somebody gets hurt on the court, they stop the whole game and they do take them back. It looks like for some sort of examination. Is that what we're talking about, too, in this sports risk management? Sure. Because any time you have a sport, the way that the sporting event or organization handles the injury would be part of that risk management process. So we've talked about the participants in the baseball situation and I'm sorry, the people that come to the game. Sure, spectators. Spectators that come to the game. And we talked about the participants in basketball and football. But also there's the organization, the owners, the ownership. And they're involved in this whole process, too. So the way I kind of see it is that the sports risk management takes different viewpoints, depending on who you are. But the goal is the same. Is that right, or? Sure. If you are an organization that is like a franchise or if you are of an event owner, you will definitely want to make your strategic planning. You'd want to implement insurance. You'd want to have techniques to control risk. You would want to assess the risk of that. But also as an athlete, as a spectator, you're making risk management decisions, even though you might not know it. So what is the role of a lawyer in all of that with respect to each category of person? Where does a lawyer fit in? What are we doing? Lawyers have draft contracts, negotiate contracts. They may be involved with negotiating contracts with sponsors, with vendors, all of that. But also lawyers have roles with regard to litigation in terms of lawsuits involving sport. As an insurance defense attorney, I definitely find myself representing a particular venue on occasion or a particular organization on where someone was injured, whether they were a participant or a spectator. I might have, I just had a situation where someone called me and said, I want you to draft a liability release for me. So it can be from anything. But also when you get to different levels of professional sports, there may be intellectual property issues. There might be issues of likeness, of use of name and image. There might be issues regarding doping. Or gosh, there's so many. Right. So in this area of risk management, sports risk management, we're not just talking about the physical blows to people. There's more to it. It's complex, yes. OK. And is there a difference between amateur sports and professional sports? Is there some issues that are only in professional sports that are not in amateur sports? Or how do those two work out? I mean, if you're in little league, do you have the same problems as you do in big league baseball? OK. There's always the basic challenges with the actual sport and potential injury. But a professional player has much more at stake. And there are more complexities regarding risk management. And those would include the contractual nature, the money that they're making, what is at stake. For example, if you are a football player and you have a $10 million contract, for example, you may decide that you're not going to go jet skiing on the weekend because it's too risky. If you get injured while jet skiing, you will not be healthy enough to play football. All right. Is that in the contract? Is that something you'd put in a contract? And who puts that in, management or the player's attorney? That would be management. They would potentially not allow their players to do certain activities that would be dangerous, like bungee jumping, when they're not playing football, because they want to protect their asset. And if that asset, the player, becomes injured, then they can't play and do their job. So we're talking about money. Talking about investment of money into a professional athlete. And that doesn't apply to Little League. Absolutely. But Little League got to be careful, too, right? They do have to be careful. But they can go bungee jumping if they want, because they don't have a contract preventing them to go bungee. But as a lawyer specializing in this area, what would you tell the little leaguer about bungee jumping? Would you give them advice to look ahead a few years, or what would you say? I would tell the little leaguer to have fun and just be careful. OK, all right. Now one thing I did, I've always been curious about, if a professional athlete gets hurt somehow, let's say, well, I guess there's two avenues. One, he goes out in Las Vegas and has a few drinks and crashes his car. That's one avenue. The other avenue is the athlete on the field gets slammed and hurt. And in both cases, it's very, I guess, I don't know how you handle those, first of all, contractually as a lawyer, if you're trying to represent somebody. But then what happens to the athlete? What do they, as a result of those two accidents, they can't participate in the sport anymore? How are those handled from a professional standpoint? Well, if you're looking at an injury on the field, that's in the course and scope of their employment. That would be a worker's comp issue. If it's outside of the field and they might be even violating their contract by getting drunk and driving, or I mean, clearly, that's a criminal issue. And so attorneys would be involved in representing them on the criminal aspect. But having a criminal action, they may find themselves in detriment under their contract with their league. OK, so it makes a difference where you get hurt. Sure, absolutely. And if you're hurt on the field, what happens to the athlete? I mean, I heard you say work comp. But I mean, that's fine. But here's an athlete's making $10 million. And he gets hurt on the field. What happens? How does the employer treat him? And I mean, is there insurance for that? Or is he just out of luck? Well, there would be insurance. And a lot of times you see that athletes are not able to play for the season or for particular games. And they may be out for the season. But as an asset of the company, they want that athlete to be better. They want them to improve. So they're going to do everything they can to get that athlete back to playing condition. Do they still get compensated? Sure, absolutely. They would get compensated through their contract and also through any workers' compensation that might be applicable. OK, do they have specific insurance that covers field injuries? Well, that's the course and scope of their work. OK, so all right. Well, I'd like to take a break right now. And then we'll come back and talk about the Olympics. Because I don't want to find out a little bit more about sports risk management and the Olympics. Fantastic. Aloha, I'm Kili Ikeena. And I'm here every other week on Mondays at 2 o'clock PM on Think Tech Hawaii's Hawaii Together. In Hawaii Together, we talk with some of the most fascinating people in the islands about working together, working together for a better economy, government, and society. So I invite you into our conversation every other Monday at 2 PM on Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. Join us for Hawaii Together. I'm Kili Ikeena. Aloha. Hi, I'm Dave Stevens, the host of Cyber Underground every Friday here at 1 PM on ThinkTechHawaii.com. And then every episode is uploaded to the Cyber Underground, that library of shows that you can see of mine on YouTube.com. And I hope you'll join us here every Friday. We have some topical discussions about why security matters and what could scare the absolute bejesus out of you if you just try to watch my show all the way through. Hope to see you next time on Cyber Underground. Stay safe. Welcome back. We are talking about sports risk management with Catherine Noor. And we've been talking just generally about what it is and various aspects of it. Now I want to focus a little bit specifically, Catherine, on the Olympics. What does sports risk management have to do with the Olympics? And we just finished with the Winter Olympics. And I was recalling that in the old days, and I may be answering my question here, but in the old days, everybody who was playing hockey on the ice war didn't wear helmets. Now everybody does. Is that what we're talking about in the Olympics? That is one small aspect. But in every sport, there's protective gear. And that protective gear is designed to protect the athlete from injury. And of course, helmets are used in many sports to protect noggins. So that's what it is. Let me go back to the Olympics then. What about the Olympics makes it special? First of all, why do we even have the Olympics? And what are the risks and values of having Olympics? The Olympics are a wonderful opportunity to have countries lay down arms, engage in peaceful, united sports competition around the world. And it's an opportunity to inspire youth to be engaged in sport. And so many Olympic, for so many Olympic athletes, they were first inspired when they were a young child and they watched it on TV. And this is one of the Olympic movement's goals is to teach children to value sport. So basically, it's a good thing. I hear you saying that. And what are the risks involved to the participants, the spectators, and even the country, the host country, of having an Olympics there? Well, obviously, Olympics are very expensive to put on. And they have benefits, of course. But there's economic risks. And also, we've had for many years risks of terrorism for any Olympics. And any participant, any person involved in any way, whether it's a coach or an official or a spectator, they do undertake a risk when they attend an Olympics. So OK, how do you manage those for the Olympics in a big country? I mean, that's the biggest sporting event at all. It's not just one stadium. It's all over the place. It's all over the country. And you've got all different types of sports. Besides the hockey, you've got the last Olympics. You had the skiing and all different types of things. And it was also in a country where North Korea theoretically posed a threat. One thing in very modern Olympics, for example, Pyeongchang, London, Rio de Janeiro, Beijing, the Olympics almost becomes a security event rather than a sports event. Because there's so much deployment of security resources that in some events, you might have as much as you might have three security personnel for every spectator. That's how crazy that is. But if you look at some images, you'll see it looks like a war zone. And so that's how we're managing risk. Is that how it does? Is that what happens? We have to militarize the Olympics? Yes, that's what happens, unfortunately. Yeah, it becomes like a militarization zone. OK. And so that's kind of one of the burdens of having the Olympics. There's high cost for that. But there are a lot of benefits from having an Olympics in a particular host cities. The benefits would include a legacy of infrastructure. There would be economic benefits. It improves the country and cities image. These are very important benefits. An example would be Beijing, where the world came to Beijing. We didn't know anything about it. And all of a sudden, that was on the map. And in a lot of these places, like Sochi and Pyeongchang, the world doesn't know about those places. But we learn about them through media coverage. And specifically with Pyeongchang, how did that work out, as far as the risks and how were they handled? There were a few glitches. The opening ceremony, there was a cybersecurity attack, which actually caused challenges to the internet, to broadcasting. It caused problems for ticket holders for the opening ceremony to print out their tickets. So there are actually some empty seats. There was a problem with the neurovirus, an outbreak to 41 security guards, shortly before the Olympics, which caused some challenges and it scared some athletes. But they replaced the security forces with military, with the South Korean military. And they sanitized all the potential areas and isolated those people involved. So those were a few of the issues. Unpredictable, really. Right. But weather issues as well. There was high winds that caused some of the events to have to delay. Right. And so they found ways around it. And it appears to be a successful Olympics. They even invited the North Korean delegation. And that seemed to help calm things down a little bit, too. Sure. Is there a role for lawyers? Was there a role for lawyers in that? Were lawyers involved in that or was it or not? Lawyers are always involved in the Olympics. And leading up to it, they're involved with the negotiation of contracts and that. But there were some specific things in this Olympics that the lawyers were more involved in. With the Russian issue in terms of the IOC not allowing or banning the Russian Federation from participating in the Olympics, there were last minute appeals in which lawyers represented various parties before the court arbitration of sport, which is called CAS. There were, they're always involved with doping issues, eligibility issues, and issues regarding Olympic selection. So there's many sponsors. They are very involved with sponsors. OK. And so you mentioned the doping issue. And that seems to come up a lot. What do you tell an athlete? How do you counsel as a lawyer an athlete to deal with that risk or to be careful? Or what do you tell them if you have an Olympic athlete or somebody that has aspirations? And how do they protect themselves from that risk? The first thing they need to know and their coaches need to know is what the banned substances are. And whether the banned substances that they're trying to avoid might be in foods or drinks that they might consume, they have to avoid all of those. And they need to know what the eligibility requirements are. They need to know anything that could get in their way of participating and realizing their dream. And so how did they do that? I mean, they got to do some study. It's not just have fun. Correct. Yes, they do have to be aware of these things. But we often hear of the excuse I didn't know. But they knew. Olympic level athletes will know everything about banned substances. And if they have excuses I don't know, which is not a good excuse, too bad. You can't manage your risk by saying I don't know. Correct. You have to have some knowledge and then be able to act on that knowledge is what I hear you saying. Absolutely. OK. All right, well, we have another Olympics coming up in 2020, right, in Tokyo. Is that right? Sure. Yeah. What are we watching out for? What are the risks involved? And what are the roles of lawyers in all of that? OK. Already what we have seen are some issues come about. And one of them, which wasn't present when Tokyo got the bid, was the ballistic missile testing and threats from North Korea. Others are water quality. And that's been an issue for quite a few Olympics, because any water sports are involved. Then there's issues regarding weather, of course, because we always have to be worried about disaster planning for earthquakes, tsunamis, et cetera. And cybersecurity is a really big one. Lawyers are involved every step of the way in terms of the negotiation of contracts and any litigation that might arise out of some of these issues. And so are they involved now? I mean, are lawyers already involved in the planning and trying to deal with the risks that are coming up for the 2020 Olympics? Generally, the lawyers at this stage are involved with the contracts of venues and sponsors and issues like that. The planners would be more involved in those other issues that are more risk management rather than legal issues. Usually, those risk management issues don't get in the hands of lawyers unless lawsuits arise. However, lawyers may be involved with drafting liability waivers or doing other looking into insurance contracts or other aspects that are arguably risk management. OK. And so there's kind of a connection now with sports and risk and lawyers. Absolutely. And is this an area of law that is just developing? Or has it been kind of under cover for a while? Or what is your experience? Well, essentially, there's the insurance piece here. And insurance defense lawyers find themselves with these issues all the time with premises liability, with transportation litigation that has something to do with sport. So it's been around for a long time. Not under the name of sports risk management. I call it that, but that's because I kind of venture outside of the law a little bit in looking at and analyzing and speaking about these issues. OK. Yeah, and I notice you got a book that you wrote. How did this come about? Or what was your thinking of this on this book? OK, what I did was when I thought it was interesting to combine insurance, sports, and law, I thought, what would happen if I reviewed all the appellate cases on sport across the country and summarized them and put them in sports-specific chapters? And that's what I did. And it was interesting to see what I saw there. And I also developed checklists for sport organizers so that they could use the checklist to address sports risk management issues. And you've been a speaker quite a bit. I have. What kind of, who's your audience in that area? I travel around the world and talk to different conferences. I have one coming up, which is essentially a insurance convention. I'm the keynote speaker, and that's in Salem, Oregon. I'm also speaking at a conference on Tokyo Olympic Risk Management, and that is in Athens, Greece in May. And I have been going to London, Turkey, Rio de Janeiro, Krakow, Poland, all of these different places and speaking on these issues relating to the Olympics and other issues. Well, that's very interesting. I appreciate the introduction to this area of law. And perhaps as we get closer to the 2020 Olympics, we can talk a little bit more about some of the specific things that we have to watch out for as someone that wants to just go and be a spectator. Absolutely. All right. Thank you very much, Mark. Thank you, Catherine.