 Mae'n meddwl o'r ddilyn, felly oedd yn gweithio'r ddilyn yn gweithio. Felly, rydyn ni'n credu rydyn ni'n gallu gweld arall. Mae'n meddwl o'r ddilyn ond yn dweud o ddilyn yn y bwysigio ar gyfer o'r ddisgu o'r ddilyn i ddiweddol. A'r hoffau mae'n mynd i'r hoffa o'r ddilyn yn ei ddysgu'r ddiweddoli. Mae'n meddwl o'r ddilyn wedi'i rhan o'r ddilyn o'r ddilyn o'r ddilyn. Felly, mae'n meddwl o'r ddilyn the most expert in, and people who are really participating in them probably have much more informed views. So, on the Debian wiki, there is a page called Local Groups, and if you look at this page, then this map is not there at the moment, but that's a map showing all the places that we claim to have Local Groups. And if you believe that, it looks very impressive. I mean, as I expected, it's more or less where we have concentrations of Debian developers, kind of where people come to Debian from as well. There's a microphone just behind you. In that Local Group did appear, so yeah, there are people in many places. I mean, in fact also, there's a lot more people. This is people who've listed themselves as a local group. Lost people just list themselves, for example, on key signing pages. So, if you're an active Debian developer travelling around, or a Debian contributor travelling around, and you make an effort to contact people, often in many more places in the world, you can turn up a group to meet for a chat or key signing, whatever. That's what I did. I just found their email list on the wiki and contacted them, and I met every one of them, so it works. So, as I said, this looks quite impressive, but in reality, many of these groups are dead or never really got started. Someone just added it on the wiki page because it sounded a nice idea, but the group is just, well, there are some people, maybe, who are physically based in that location, but they don't meet or really do anything. They just exist. And even when they do meet, often in what happens in practice, is that the details are only visible to people who are already involved. That, for example, another person from outside is turning up and they emailed a few people. In Edinburgh, we had for a while some group of Debian people meeting, but all that happened was one person was sending an email to the other people he knew were likely to come. So, probably actually there were lots more people in the city who might have been interested, but because of the way it was being organised, it wasn't really visible if you weren't, didn't already have a connection with the group. So, to know what people's interest or background or experiences who here does have some kind of thing that could be described as a local group or local meeting or something that they're currently participating in or have done before. Kind of. So, who definitely doesn't have any Debian connection around where they're living. For those just out of interest quickly, for those people, did you have anyone you knew who was involved in Debian before you started or you just found Debian from the internet and got a connection that way? Or do you think it would have helped you if there was some more visible Debian people around or anyone have an opinion? I had some friends that used Debian and I had some friends that used Debian and that's how I started to use it like for many years ago. And now I'm looking for other people that can do something together maybe. And then from, I don't know, maybe also if people are slightly awake, then the ones who have been involved in some group maybe a couple of people at least would like to say something about what their group, I mean what form does their group take because this again, these things vary, some of them are very organized, have talks, have regular meetings, some is just, people know that a few friends exist in the city or in the same country or whatever. Does anyone able to describe what their experience is? So I'm just a guest at my local group I have to say because I'm an uploading contributor. And so this local group is stationed in a hack lab and I think also they meet over the hack lab email list so it's not really open to everybody who is in the same city but they meet on a regular basis. I don't even know if they are on the wiki but I will check. Anyone else? So in Switzerland we've got a local group in Zurich which has a fixed monthly meeting. There is also a French speaking region of Switzerland and they have ad hoc meetings so maybe three or four times a year that someone calls for a dinner and they get together. And those are all announced on the local mailing list and there's also a site that's run by the Linux user groups of Switzerland with a shared calendar where those events are announced. In the Washington DC area we've had occasional ad hoc meetings though not so much lately, mostly just when somebody else is coming to town. I've got a mailing list in an IRC channel though I don't know how active the ladder is because I don't really do IRC much myself. Well, I am part of a Catalan group but it's not a local group because we are all in Catalonia and it's quite wide and we are not doing a lot of things. We wanted to meet each six months, it's not a lot but it's not a city group but the last time we couldn't do it. We wanted to do it but we have no efforts, enough efforts and I don't know how to... because the problem is that at least in Catalonia, Ubuntu has local communities very strong and there are a lot of people but we have no efforts to move things. In Washington DC area we've had one or two with the local Ubuntu community as well but we haven't done that lately either. So maybe this is a... since that question has come up of other kinds of groups that happen and so on, maybe that's a good moment to compare across. First of all, this is what the Debian local groups page has. It has this and then if you scroll down, there's listed by continent and country, some text format, standard form. There's not really any clue in any case whether this is recent information or was put there ten years ago or whatever. I'm not sure if you're a new potential contributor, this is necessarily... looks particularly welcoming way to present it but also it's not necessarily very visible. This is in a page of the name local groups in the wiki but you kind of need to know that exists to look for it. So for example, Ubuntu has been mentioned, pushes this somewhat more and then again this... it's nothing... this is not a kind of JavaScript filled fancy website or anything, it's not anything that Debian would reject necessarily but it's a bit more of a welcoming format. So one question is even apart from changing what any groups are doing or encouraging more, maybe we should think about having some more friendly kind of pointers to this somehow. Actually, sorry, on Ubuntu, is anyone here experienced slightly with what Ubuntu are doing to comment on that because it has been something that they've done much more of trying to have these local communities. Is anyone willing to admit to knowing enough about Ubuntu to comment on that? You said you had some meetings with them, so maybe you know slightly. I know. It was... not deeply about what they're up to. My understanding is... it's really been a couple of years, I mean it's just hanging out, so I'm going to give a lot of detail there, sorry. So again, Fedora have a similar kind of thing actually. So one thing to note about both... well, for example, with Ubuntu and Fedora is that they have a kind of more top... as you might expect, a more top-down hierarchical way of doing this, that they've divided up the world into kind of marketing territories and people are appointed to be in charge of those territories and then they're allowed to authorise subgroups within that and so forth. I mean I think for... maybe I don't know if any people disagree, but I would have thought probably for... although we might want to have some more help towards local groups and so on, I don't think we necessarily want to have that kind of structure for a Debian thing. Obviously we just allow groups to develop where people want them, which again, I mean it's also... it will depend where in the world people are, what is a local group. If you're in a place where there's a huge number... if you're in Germany, where there's a lot of Debian developers, then probably people's local meeting might be just their city. If you're in a country where there's three developers in a country, then probably the meaning of local in practice might become a bit different. This is the information on KDE, local in-home community, so actually we're not... I wouldn't say we're the worst here. Somewhere in... buried amongst us there is information on different countries, but it looks a bit like... it does look like a... just boring information. This is Arch Linux, so again, at least on one part of the website, we can say we're ahead of Arch Linux, if and if not on some of the documentation fronts. They just have... they say they have a group in... probably a group in Düsseldorf, a group in Berlin and Luxembourg. So again, I mean we're not doing so badly maybe. There are actually quite a lot of groups. At the moment we don't really... it's not something that Debian has really actively encouraged, so it's quite surprising that there are so many that claim... at least claim to exist currently. So this is also some information from GNOME. So one interesting thing with them actually is that they have, unlike the other people, a more clear guideline on what counts as a local group for them, is just a question that would apply for... comes up for Debian as well. So imagine we do want to encourage more local Debian groups, then you have to say, well, what is it? I mean, we don't... probably we don't want to just become a... encyclopedia of existing Linux user groups. There's not much point just to duplicate that information. So you probably want to say there is something that marks out a Debian local group as being somehow connected with a Debian, not just people who like computers or something. So what GNOME say is... where is it in here? Yeah, the groups must focus on GNOME or the GNOME community. Sorry, it does a screenshot now. I tried to make it big, but apparently not big enough. I can reload or something, but I'm just reading it out anyway. My Wi-Fi is so terrible in here. I took screenshots of the websites because they knew I wouldn't work. They could be a separate organization. They're allowed to be a subgroup of a log, for example, but it has to have a kind of visible existence of its own. One that probably would share with what we might want for Debian is it should be somehow about free software. Then they say they want a contact person and they should follow the overall GNOME code of conduct. Somehow there is something we probably would follow more or less if we wanted to set ideas about what a Debian group might be, the same kind of parallel. So stepping to a different side for a moment, and one question is it will. Again, some of these groups that may or may not exist at the moment do have regular or physical meetings, and it does seem to be that where that happens it's kind of a useful thing, although other ones just have a meaningless example. There's someone... Hi everyone. I'm a bit out of breath. Sorry I was late. Many thanks to the video team because I was listening to the stream the whole time while driving. Emphasis on listening. So I was part of the co-founders of the Ubuntu local team here in Quebec which grew to around 300 people at every release party was crazy. I started a few others in other countries. I'm originally from Colombia. So I'm trying to apply all that experience and knowledge and partying to getting together a welcome team for Debian. And there's a BOF right after this in Woody if you're interested. So regarding physical meetings I think that's the most important, the single most important part. And in Ubuntu at some point even if you think the Ubuntu was very strong and very wide and accepting and including we reached a limit where people wouldn't come for three hour events to geek out and bring their laptops and show off and so on. And it was very welcoming, family friendly as we said. But I came up with a very simple idea that seemed absurd at the time and has grown quite a bit. And it's the Ubuntu hour. And so we removed everything. So we kind of joked about this and we said what do we hate the most when we go to one of these meetings? Even if we love seeing new people and people we know and getting together and sharing and so on. And for some of us was the time we started to grow up and get older and get families and other responsibilities. For some other people was just a geeking aspect of it. They hate having to share or even pretend that they know anything about anything. Some people just know absolutely nothing about it and they're just curious. The relatives, the family, the colleagues and so the Ubuntu hour had, I think, or still has three requirements was trying not to bring any machines. It's only an hour and it can be one person. And my initial premise was if you're just two people anywhere using Ubuntu, that's it, you're a team. You're a team of two. If someone else joins, well, then you're three. That's a 30%, 33% increase and so on and so forth. And if no one else joins, then that's it, you have an hour of peace and self introspection and whatever and you leave and that's it. And the only other thing was to repeat this on a weekly or monthly basis. It's just weird how people just adopted this and Canonical made it an official resource and now there's a tool to add your own Ubuntu hours and whatever. It started as a weekend. So my first suggestion would be if we're going to go towards the social solution for this problem would be keep it very, very, very simple. Even the signs, all that stuff that comes with organizing something, having coffee, food and so on. Don't worry, just advertise. You are going to be available in an hour wherever. And we actually had Ubuntu hours in neighborhoods. Forget about countries. It was like there's Ubuntu Montreal hour in this neighborhood and in this other and people loved it because they didn't even have to take the bus or anything like that. So yeah, if anyone's interested I almost forgot about local groups in our BOF, there's no mention of it and I just noticed this this morning. So yeah, come and see me and I'm going to be here until I mean, I live here in Montreal so I'm going to be at least here at Depeganth until Saturday, but let's meet and chat. I mean, certainly I've seen that for a couple of the Debian local meetings that do go on where it just seems to, if someone can say once a month they're going to be in this cafe at this time, whatever and that person just makes a commitment to go then something will... Right, and we actually even removed the commitment part of what you just said and sometimes I wouldn't show to my own Ubuntu hour thing in my neighborhood and people would go. Sure. And just because two people would show up and they knew... Yeah, I think it's just that if it's only one new person who shows up then they may feel a bit lost, but... And if you look at Ubuntu thinking back something that feels contrary to the Debian community is every Ubuntu team had a team lead and co-lead and people that were clearly kind of above everyone else. Do you think that's useful or... It takes someone to do the dirty job at the beginning, I think and Canonical actually got people to do a lot of things with t-shirts and free CDs. A lot of things. And then that worked. Yeah, oh and stickers. So yeah, those three things were huge. So can we get sponsors to give us that and start the Debian hour or something like that? I'm thinking about it. So I mean another thing, again I think what you're saying about having it every week or every month is certainly I know myself when I see for non-Debian things other groups happening in Edinburgh say quite often I see the meeting after it already happened. But if I know there's another one in a month's time for example I can put that in my diary and attempt to remember that time. So one of things is kind of harder to get involved. Can I just respond to that? Just on the idea of a team lead in Debian someone can lead something just for one meeting. Yeah, when Morae stands up here today for an hour he's leading this event but someone else might propose an event on the same topic at the next EPCONF. So it's not that we don't have people leading things it's just the duration of that role isn't fixed or formal. But leadership still happens in Debian just in a different way. I just wanted to suggest bringing up the website used to advertise the events in Switzerland. Do you want to bring up your browser and I'll give you this? Good luck, I see. What is it? Which one do you want? So it's frytermine.ch F-R-E-I-E so in dwych. F-R-E-I-E- termine T-E-R-M-I-N-E .ch Oh, it's working. Yes. So if you go to the right on the right hand side there's a key with the different colours what they mean. So there's a colour for Debian Treff Treff is German for meeting so Debian Treff is Debian meeting Zurich and there's another colour for FSFE meeting so each one has their colour and if you look in the calendar you can see them, you can go forward a month further down on the right there's a filter and you can get it in eye calendar format into your thunderbird or into your phone or whatever you use. So this is just one example in the German speaking region of Switzerland but this could be copied by groups that want to do this but I mean for me personally I am not a person that goes to a meeting at a fixed time every month and it's the same with other things like I don't commit to going to like a class at the gym at a fixed time every month I prefer to do what I'm doing and then whenever I finish that day I'll go out on my bike or something I don't have a fixed time for doing something like that I like to have flexibility and there are some people in the community that have the same feeling with Debian that they just do the Debian stuff when they feel like doing Debian stuff other people like to have a structure like this to have a monthly activity so the same thing won't work for everyone some new participants may also like being able to look at something like this and see where they can join very quickly even without being on the mailing list so some people are afraid to send an email asking for key signing or to say that they're visiting but if they see something like this and they can see where they might meet people they'll just show up so I think, yeah and has anyone else seen anything like this in other regions this kind of calendar you mean yes there is something like it in Edinburgh certainly one other idea I had just with that is that maybe some tools like say the wiki that we use for Debian maybe someone could develop a plugin for events so that when people put events in the wiki it would generate an eye calendar output that could be aggregated by sites like this can you bring back your browser since it seems it's working just open a new tab and I'll let's try this agenda in French sorry I can't hear it A, G, E, N, D, A oh yeah G sorry not J oh I can't see D, U L, I, B, R, E so agenda agenda du libre dot qc dot ca and this country level domain name can't be registered anymore it's for Quebec so this is pretty much the same and well very similar to me if you scroll down completely there's tags in the middle of the page at the bottom in the middle yeah so kind of like what you said for the colors and at the very top of it you will notice there's Switzerland at the right and I'm pretty sure it's empty because it's French, Swiss so we should talk recently on the there's a free software foundation mailing list I can't remember the exact list but there's a big discussion thread about centralizing the free software activities calendars what you see here was originally started in France in Quebec province we rewrote it of course and then we went back upstream and then we combined the source code and there's a whole history of collaboration here but we should probably talk about doing something together but I mean I think it's interesting also that this is free software focused because again the kind of calendar this type that exists in Edinburgh there's a lot of events that kind of every day of the month you can go to something but there's really nothing none of them that are actually focused on the issues of freedom and so on so this includes everything free software and the guidelines are pretty strict but at the same time if you're talking about the subject that covers 90% social issues and there's 10% free software related it'll get in yeah but I mean a lot of a lot of big meetings of this type that happen even if it happens to be about a free programming language or so on people are just not interested in these issues so the fact of even if it's that the group has some recognised interest in that area it's different from having zero interest so I'll tell you what it took to to get the calendar as full as you see it for the past week even though most of it is depth-conf this week as a president and as a member of the organization behind this and a bunch of people maybe 10 or 10 to 15 we had to attend every single free software event that showed up anywhere in the radar 4, 5, 6 times over a year or two let them know about this and almost beg them to put their events in it was very very very hard and I think it's also apart from people being able to see future events the fact that if you can for any individual group being able to see the history of events also makes again if you're a potential new person you have a feeling that this is an active group it's kind of more comforting to join it rather than that you think you'll turn up and it won't really happen and then it helped a lot that we were able to burst out of our comfort zone and bubble and I'm not a Fedora user so let's see these people, let's meet them and let's go to their place and invite them over really worked out well I think one other thing is communication I mean just communicating that meetups exist for Davion that is I think also key like for example the open street map community they have a regular newsletter that kind of summarises what happens in the community like it's called weekly OSM and they always they also have a calendar that passes on the community page with all events and that just creates a lot of discoverability you see like oh there is a there are people meeting in Montreal there are people meeting in Stockholm wherever and I think that is also key to motivate others to well why I should maybe start one as well so this is something maybe if we create such a solution to connect with a publicity team to put that in bits or something like that so I mean quickly does anyone have anything they want to say about imagine that we were making a new site that maybe takes information from the wiki or whatever it does but was making this more visible does anyone have any opinion that they want to mention on what should be listed there or what should be allowed to be listed I mean how do we define what is a Davion group or do we just say what they are going to have and replace going on with Davion for example I would be comfortable with any group where people will be made to feel welcome where they can ask questions about Davion where they can get help to install Davion so whether it is a Davion group whether there is a Davion developer or not if people have a question about Davion and they can go to that meeting and hopefully get a positive reply then I think that would be a group that we should list this all points to the welcome team I think because we already have we have a couple of people and I am one of the contacts and we are trying to improve the newcomer experience and to me someone new does not necessarily mean someone new to free software it is also someone new to the developer community so you may be a developer elsewhere but now you want to come here and you are curious or someone that has no technical background whatsoever and then the first contact should be actionable and really quick response that is what happens in Ubuntu you want to join the community you create your account, you log in you are translating in like 5 minutes you are wiki editing in like another 5 minutes and you find your parties and people and everything in like the next 10 minutes finding the people I think is the key place that is missing if you know how to do wiki editing and how to report bugs I am fairly comfortable you are going to find your way around in Davion but if you want to find the people it is another story some teams are already clearly identified with contacts and everything some others are not there were a few talks about teams communicating with each other being difficult at some point so I think that is one of the parts so if anyone wants to start a group that person should find within 5 minutes of getting to Davion their work how to do just that even if they know nothing else about Davion I don't know I was listening over streaming about some of the people that had meetings elsewhere someone mentioned Catalonia was you maybe you can share with us how did you find out about the local meetings or other people there for Davion how did it start maybe the local group in Catalonia started because of the Davion user catalan list yes the mailing list so from there some people some of us we know each other and we decided to meet physically and from here we started to meet more regularly but lately sadly we are not doing so much well the last the last day we do a release party but it was not a party it was a hiking I agree with you and you don't have sometimes it's more to to get in touch with people more than to do a very techy talks for instance because we can do it virtually but the history of catalan group was this that we wanted to we were talking about things in the list and then become the local group in fact we registered as a local group not long time ago but we were the group before we registered it because we were doing things and some talks things like that but not with a very regular basis so I mean for making groups more visible one thing maybe has been mentioned is to try to have ongoing meetings that could be only I mean in some places even if it's only you say you have a some meeting every summer or something at least the fact that there's something on the web page to say that it's still alive I think is reassuring to people who it gives them a reason to contact to bother contracting the group if they find out about it I mean I don't know what else people think would be good again one thing I haven't put on this side I think I mentioned somewhere else is probably nowadays the same kind of information as well as mailing lists and so on we probably ought to be trying to feed this information out to the various types of social media that people find things on nowadays as well if you want the deviant Catalan user group we have a we keep a gently but I don't know if it's the best if you want you want to show it I don't know if it's the best example hi I'm Kathy Sutter in observing the community over about a decade from a distance and not making big efforts to be involved I often think it might be helpful maybe in future conversations to talk about what would be lost if all the groups became more open and that's a good way of discovering why they're not opening so there's an interesting social trust that's built up and it gets disrupted when you have events where you need to be nice to a lot of people and the building up of those close relationships can be very crucial and I'm not saying that that deviant shouldn't open up I'm just saying it's a workload I think one issue on that maybe as well is how you if we were trying to start and say how should we actually market these things or brand them then there is a fundamental question which at the moment we haven't really dealt with because in most places we haven't been trying to push these groups very much anyway but are these who are they targeted at for a lot of what we've been discussing here we've kind of been thinking about targeting at people who want to be deviant contributors in some way and maybe that is the right thing to do a different possibility which some groups have pushed much more in different parts of the world is just to be about encouraging deviant and trying to have more public facing events with well again in Catalonia there have been events with different days of talks and so on again both things can work but again they are slightly different so from outside I see that there's a doocracy instituted to the extent that a person has to show that they will contribute and are contributing before someone will take the time and energy to make more personal connection with them and so I think that's not a bad thing it just has this trade off of being difficult for new people I can see to some degree that for me the kind of contributor focus has some validity in the sense that in most parts of the world there already are for example Linux users groups so again there's not much point trying to duplicate that exactly and I'm not saying it's bad if people who are just a user turn up to a meeting but it's still not clear to me that trying to create a new set of Linux user groups purely focused on Debian would help anyone maybe maybe I don't know that's something we were confronted a lot here in Quebec because there was a very strong community of free software users all kinds of different users and maybe we can draw a parallel with programming community so there's all kind of groups here now gravitating so there's Python Montreal there's a group about Javascript there's a bunch of other web developers and focusing on different technologies and some user groups really focusing around the one specific tool and probably the only problem is when they have meetings at the same time and in some occasions we have done for example the club Linux at Amic meetings have been focusing on one distribution or the other and we show up and we do demos and so on and I don't think it's a huge problem most probably someone in marketing would tell you well there's the brand is not clear or you're not respecting this or this kind of rule for typical marketing but as I said before I think you need a group of one and if you start with that you'll discover it if you remain a group of one after three years well maybe there's no point in putting such effort if your group of one grows to 200 in a couple of months well maybe you do need a structure and a lead and resources and stuff so So one other question that you were implicitly raising before is what can Debian centrally effectively do to help any of these groups if they want to so clearly at the moment we are providing a minimal level of infrastructure in that people can put their entries in a wiki they can get mailing lists if they want to and so on I think one thing we're not really doing at the moment that has been mentioned is probably we should try somehow aggregate the event information and push it out again it's not it's not necessarily the case that that's going to be how you actually get the attendees because they might get it by searching directly for something in their city rather than by seeing in the central Debian news but some people will see it that way and it also just gives a feeling of life I think somehow Right but then there's discoverability if I'm in Montreal I'm very interested in knowing if there's people in New York that are broke Ottawa Boston New York Yeah why not a day trip to go see the other guys next door in Ubuntu I think one thing that helped a lot initially other than giving away free stuff was having clear branding guidelines so and I think that's done with Debian it's clear that we can use the logo for this or this or this and that verifying a bit more in a context of local groups would be nice and you'd be amazed how many people just print out stuff make t-shirts and give them away for free on your behalf without you asking them just making the logo available that's one thing I remember and the other thing was let's not put the weight on the publicity or marketing team to discover stuff and aggregate it but let's help them make available a way to send them the information easily and I call RSS or whatever text format I think we should have a way to extract our Debian events and if we start just with us too and we'll probably find that other people are doing the same thing and probably get a nice list by a couple of months and then they discover each other and I don't know and do people think that that it would be useful for Debian to spend money on these things somehow and if we did spend money what would it be for well I wish I would have known how to invite other people to Debian camp for example the week before is a huge it's an opportunity we could take more advantage of and if I'm going to Taiwan next year I'll probably get there a week earlier and set up a help desk and meet the users and so on and so forth so by the end of week of DEBCAMF 18 we know there's an organized group and if there isn't then there is probably no point but at least put the resources there in some time to do it while at DEBCAMF just on that question of money one thing I'd suggest this roll up banner next to More is I've got three of those just with the Debian logo on them they were actually produced for us by the FOSAsia team they produced a whole batch of them in Singapore and so I just take one along when I go somewhere and I put it up it wouldn't be hard to get a couple of those made for every developer so whenever someone shows up somewhere they just put it up even if it's not strictly a Debian event maybe they've got a table somewhere maybe it's a ham radio event I go to some of those as well so that's just one possibility on the question of social media this keeps coming up in different forums and there are some people who feel that you can't do anything without social media these days and there are other people who really push back on it for various reasons including the privacy the fact that it has non free javascript and what have you now I've been to many events this year where I've met new people who I've never met through Debian or free software and every time I go to an event I find out about at least two more events without using any social media and in several cases people have asked me to come and talk at their next event or another event that they know about so I don't think we need to be dependent on social media now some people might choose to use it and being a free organisation we can't stop people using their browser to browse to facebook.com I don't personally do that myself but yeah we need to look at all the alternatives there and really going out to events that are outside our comfort zone is quite significant I went to an event in Cotor recently which is the digital born media carnival there were only a very small number of IT or developer people there mostly it was journalists lawyers, policy makers researchers and academics so it was really interesting to have two way conversations with these people and find out just how they perceive what we do some of them were really clued in some of them you realise that the messages are not reaching them and we have to work harder to get the messages out there about free software mass surveillance and all these issues but you only get that by interaction with people the social media is one way and sometimes it's not even one way you put it out there and it never even reaches anyone at all so any other topics people think we should be mentioning just to your previous slide about node 1.4 so you were visibility about the wiki page so I think one big difference between the pages you showed is also you have the world map I think it would be really nice to have something like this on the wiki page so it's really friendly and you see oh there are many groups and then you scroll down because down on the wiki page you really find information about groups I looked it up before I think for me it's really nice if I want to get in contact with somebody I can find this but also maybe include some information for people who want to make a group like it's easy or even when you say about money or about roll-ups include this there show people who have already a group want to do more publicity that it's easy to get stuff also I've been to some tech meetings and I see what people like is also to have some free food and beer so I'm not saying that's also a way but also it's an engaging way for people to go and to attend and I know that not everybody but sometimes it's an encouraging thing to go so maybe I don't know who needs to sponsor that or whether it's a good idea to necessarily Devin to sponsor that but it's another way to encourage people to go and socialize Any other comments? So I think I need everyone in this room to follow me to the welcome team BOF right after this because the ideas I have are completely on another level and this seems more to the point of welcoming new people so yeah if you're with me follow me after this but yeah regarding the money I think it's it's a strange thing because when you don't have it you need it and when you have it you wish you didn't need it and it makes things more complicated in many levels but sponsorship I think it's a good way to make it simple if someone wants to organize this and they're willing to sponsor it or they need the money one thing that has worked a lot in Quebec here and that I made sure in organizations when I was involved in that capacity for example I would hear some people saying we're going to do an open street map party and mapping the neighborhood how can we get more people and they said well we wish we had money for this well did you ask around oh no not really so don't hesitate to ask your local free software or tech group or even the electronic shop around the corner sometimes with 50 euros dollars you can get a couple free pizzas and maybe get the more mappers or more I know here in Quebec there's a few places you can ask but if you haven't asked yourself that before today just think about all the people gravitating around your community that could throw in a few bucks maybe even family I don't know are there people here who are not currently going to a regular WM meeting say but would be willing to try and create one where they're living or maybe maybe so if you put your hand up then are there things that you think would help you do that or it's just about you getting around to it so I live with a developer we talk about Debian all the time we have local Debian developers in the Portland area in Seattle so basically if someone internationally is coming to Portland say something on IRC and then hopefully someone will propose that we all meet together and it might be a group of from 3 to 15 people will come and greet that person and say hey what's up since we last saw you and then there'll be technical conversations and that really is the extent that I see of Debian social in Portland I don't make an effort to help because I've found that I get thrown into the girl jobs which I don't enjoy and that is I see a bug squashing party and no one has arranged chairs or cleaned or made sure there was some food to eat or water and people start getting old cranky and uncomfortable and then I go oh and then I end up being the girl and so I just watch and I enjoy the conversations as I come up because I live in Brazil and I participate in groups and social movements that we never have money to do anything and things just happen and but I have been doing some workshops about Linux and in Stalfast with Debian so for me it would be really good if there is other people doing that in Brazil that they can meet and we can talk about that what's good, what's not good the space where we can use to do that so that's what I'm looking for so yeah good so unless someone wants to add something urgently I guess that's one hand up over here I'm from Delhi, India and I think the problem which I face is that I don't have a I don't know much people who are Debian developers in my area and even if I google Debian India and there is not a proper list of people who are there near me and I go to meetups and I meet people in open source but it is very hard to meet Debian developers in my area and the last conferences which I see in India are very around 2006 and so there is not a proper updated list of Debian developers in my area and even if there are five people around and we can just meet up and discuss about Debian projects, I think that is what I'm looking for so hopefully some of us can carry on discussing these issues and including apparently in this session in the other room we know where this other welcome discussion meeting is happening woody maybe somewhere else exactly but I think we should wrap up for now and hopefully we can carry on discussing thank you