 mall that is not that highly populated so I can get in really quick and just get the damn thing done. I do it every, you know, it just gets to the point where it's bothering me, you know, it's plump. Yeah, yeah. Makes sense. I used to get my, and when I lived in Manhattan, I used to sometimes get my haircut in Astor Place. It was like just off of NYU, there was a basement that had, I don't know, 25 different hair, hair, you know, barbers sitting there. Right. And it was insanely cheap, something like 15 bucks and you're out of there. Yeah. That's about how much it is at this place, you know. Cool. It looks good. Well, thank you. Anything that doesn't will be gone in a week from now anyways. Right, right. Exactly. So I'm in Bucharest at, this is the inside of a kind of a studio where they're working stuff. There's an event that's starting right now outside there. They've taken over and in fact re-engineered a pretty big property that the University of Bucharest has. And there's a big house on it which they've like done magic with. And then they've built fire pits out in the middle of the screen and there's walkways and they broke a lot of concrete. Apparently this was a concrete walkway. They broke it up. Like they did serious, serious work here. So I'm going to head off to the events which are starting right now. And Grace has graciously agreed to be me or just actually to be her, which that being like the Grace Jerry Confluence being like potentially explosive, I don't know, could be her thing. So I wanted to say, say howdy and then pass the baton and head off as I see we're talking about meta hair and virtual hair. Nice. That's right. Virtual chia pets on your head, you know, you know. Grace, the floor is all yours. Great. I need to actually grab something from my stove in a second. But I'm going to start by saying that this is the OGM call for September 29th. That's what this is. And I'm looking at the transcript and hoping it says something funny. So this is our regular check-in call. So we don't have a particular topic for today. And Jerry said that he often calls on people in an order that reflects like if they weren't here too much in the last couple of times so that it'll give everybody a turn. But you're all pretty generally, I'm writing down people's names as they come in, you're all people who've been around a lot. So now I'm like, oh, who should I call on first? It's very complicated. But I feel like right in the middle of my screen is Kevin. And I'm always super interested in neighborhoods. So I would I will call on him first. Okay, well, great. Thank you. I've been reporting in that I'm working on a neighborhood economics version that is using donut economics as its frame, because it's the only frame I've seen that gets environmentalists and economic justice folks to talk to each other. And rather than not talk to each other, I guess that's the simplest way. A lot of economic justice folks have some problems with environmentalists because of their genocidal history. You know, they like the pristine wilderness. But the thing with the donut is you want to be the safe operating space in your local bio region. And so then it helps it lets the environmentalists care about everybody in that bio region. And we're finding that to really be true. And we're meeting at a church that's giving us a room for the winter, and we're putting up our maps. And there's about 20 or so people that are showing up now. It's at least gender diversity. We're kind of a white part of the county. And they're starting to move toward what they want to be organizational. And so they're saying, are we a nonprofit? Are we open source? There's some open source techies involved. There's some folks who want to be the chaotic commons and all that kind of stuff. And so when people start talking about governance, I've been around a lot of things like that. I need to have a project that's separate from that. Because I'm sort of just instinctively disruptive to that process. So I've got a thing where there's a local community foundation. It's a donor advice fund for a community, really, but a set of the community foundation. So they give out about 120,000 a year. And we're starting to do a social safety net map. Because the donut says, what's the social undershoot? And what's the environmental overshoot? And what's the safe operating space, the donut in between? And so I've come up with some questions that we're going to vote on and add to. But I've got about four people who will be working with me on where does that philanthropic money go? And what do they see as the need? And why are they involved in it? And we'll just sort of know a landscaping of the social safety net. The feeding programs, there's a big free diaper kind of thing. And so I always need a project that I can focus on while everybody talks about governance and order. So I can go in the other room and be working on something. Otherwise, I just toss in firecrackers just as, so I know that enough about myself that I need to have this kind of project. It turns out I got four people who want to help. So anyway, it's good to see this thing form. And as things form in the room, I will walk out as they apply order. Cool. I just want to share something quickly with you around voting. Because voting tends to be divisive in community. And then I'm going to go to Klaus. But this came up on the recent Gitcoin grants, which was really interesting because they wanted to create a situation where they didn't get scammers. And they wanted to give that authority to the people, anybody who wanted, basically. And here's just how the screen looks. And it's like, okay, here's this grant. And you get to vote. Here's the team track record. And you get to vote from weak to strong, non-rival risk, weak to strong. Obviously, you could change these categories. And is this an important problem, weak to strong? And I just want, and this is, this is by a fellow, as you can see on the top. And so this is an existing system that has been used, their fellows around 15 years old, by communities and nonprofits for a long time now. And then they have like, you can, whatever they have a bunch of different things you could vote on. But instead of a yes or no vote on things that allows much more of a nuanced like voting system that doesn't end up as divisive as like what we know as voting system. So I just wanted to point that out to you. Yeah, thanks. I'm going to specifically be not involved in any of those questions. But I'm sure that's a good thing to think about. Yeah, like one of the things I would really suggest is to not have yes, no votes on anything if you want community cohesion. Yeah, I'm going to be not in that. So thank you though. All right, Klaus. Yeah, Kevin, are you dialed in on the these new initiatives coming out of Washington? Like yesterday was the focus on hunger and nutrition. Yeah, I saw that. So that's sponsored by the White House. But at the same time, they're putting massive amounts of money into the US conservation programs. So the inflation reduction program, the IVA, they put a billion dollars into the conservation programs. And the challenge right now is to is to figure out how at community level, you can dial into this. So most everyone doesn't understand the role of the conservationist rather conservation bureau. The conservation bureau was formed under Roosevelt in the 1930s, in response to the dustball and to to get knowledge science from a central source to the individual farmers. So there are over 3000 conservation districts in the US in virtually every county to gain access to this money. So I'm working here in Bend in my community and lo and behold, two out of four open positions for conservationists don't have anybody running. So people are just not even aware of what this is, right? And how the government is organized and structured the administrative processes. So I thought that was really an important focal point. Yeah, that's really interesting. I will check it out. I used to, you know, when I was in Mississippi, I knew the county agent, the soil conservation folks really well and all that. But I don't know I'm here. That's an interesting point. Thank you. Awesome. Doug? Yeah, I just Kevin, I am. I'm sort of obsessed with new, new formations, new groups. And one, I love that your clarity about I don't have a horse in that race. So I'm going to create the place I want to go to get started on something while the folks that are enamored of governance like can hash out their governance stuff. And but I was curious whether, you know, foundationally, the whole initiative, the group itself has put any sort of like fundamental stakes in the ground around purpose or around values? Yeah, I mean, we care about the watershed, you know, and so and with the donor, you have a way to look, there's a you can map the social undershoot on, you know, from education to housing to health to food security. And then on, you know, you know, one of the big things is that the river and Black Mountain, which is closest town to where I live, has been classed as impaired. And that's impaired because of runoff effluent into it. And so, like, we're working with a local Unitarian church and some folks who know how to do that kind of thing, to do a rain garden and design a swale and a berm and and we're letting them use wood chips and stuff. And so the goal on a broad basis is that we would collectively respond to climate change in a way that our taxes go down, because because of it being impaired, there's a new fee everybody pays. And they like to call it a fee, because it's not a tax, but it's like a tax. And so but the story would be if we can get everybody to understand rain gardens and things like that, swales and other things, we could be a town that collectively responds to climate change and lowers our taxes. So it's everybody kind of buys into that model as one of the things. And then out of that group of 24 or five, we're interested in the social safety debt. And so we're just going to do a baseline of what's there. And you know, how many how many mothers need the diaper service, you know, and how many mothers last year and stuff like that, how many meals are delivered and, you know, those sorts of things. Because I think I think most of the time philanthropy is really inefficient, you know, but this is kind of a neat thing because it's a community foundation with a sub foundation that is the Black Mountain Foundation. And so it's really a donor advisement housed at the community foundation so that every the 120,000 or so is local people giving to the community. And then the board of the community found the sub foundation saying where it should go. And I bet they don't know much. This is mostly they don't, you know, they do they do things that people, you know, they get pitched by local nonprofits. So we're hoping to see where the gap is between the need and where the money's going. But that's just my assumption that they're not doing it right. Because mostly they don't. Awesome. All right. Let's go. Eric, Michael Carl. Eric. Hi, everybody. So I've been feeling a sense of acceleration of everybody trying to get back to their pre COVID lifestyles. And I mean, personally, I'm feeling a lot going on in my life being with my synagogue with upcoming holidays with a friend in the hospital and whatever. So now, I found an interesting podcast that I'm posting here. And I listened to an episode with Nora Bateson, which I found very interesting. And there was another one. I found this when I was researching something from Klaus's call. Yes, on Tuesdays. So yeah, I think she talks about the warm data and how much we don't see when thinking or perceiving and just to reorient ourselves. So I'm going to leave it at that. Just putting out there for people who are interested. Thanks. Great. Yeah, Nate Hagens is an ex Wall Street guy who figured out there was something weird going on with this growth economy. And he's an expert in the connection between energy and economy. I think I've posted also from that I actually didn't interview with him for his podcast. And then it was ruined and didn't end up getting on the podcast. And I don't know whether it's because of overwhelm or whatever, but he never re interviewed me. And I pinged him a couple of times. I don't know exactly what's behind that. I assume he's just overwhelmed with lots of stuff. But it's interesting that you pick the one from Nora Bateson because what I love about that podcast is how grounded it is in reality. So he interviews somebody who's expert in nuclear war. Like what does that actually look like? Is there such a thing as a limited nuclear war? What would that actually look like? He interviews somebody on material science. Like how much material really is there? And how many batteries could we actually make? And is renewable energy actually going to save us? One of his recent podcasts he talks about, he shows some graphs around wood. Like what if we all went back to burning wood in order to heat our homes? How long would it take before we ran out of forests? And it's very grounded in reality. And he calls it the great simplification because the idea is we're about to be facing a much simpler life. And it's just obvious. Somebody is telling me that in France it looks like they may run out of water very quickly in some parts of France this winter. And yeah. And so he has some, they're just, he has all kinds. He has a food expert on there one day who talks about, you know, going back to local farming. So yeah. I love that podcast. And Nate is just, I mean, I just happened to have met him in person and he's a great guy. So yeah. So let's go Michael Carl Klaus. Michael. Hello all. So one thing that's happening for me is I spent, spent a big chunk of last week at the other unfinished conference, the pretender to the name of the conference where, Longer Standing Conference, where Jerry is, that Frank McCourt is the one, the one that I went to in New York was the one that Frank McCourt, former owner of the LA Dodgers, is throwing heaps of money at, I think kind of making himself the anti-big tech mogul or something. And it was notable for a lot of smart and well-meaning people being there, but not, you know, frustratingly not really coalescing around any particular approach to diffusing the kind of social media driven problems that, you know, kind of plague information distribution. You know, everybody could agree on what was bad, but everybody, you know, was proposing a different standard as to what to do about it. And Frank McCourt was, you know, touting this new standard that his liberty project had developed called DSMP, which was going to be the Distributed Social Media Protocol, allowing everybody on every social platform to communicate with each other. And so, you know, in the aftermath of that, in livening, but somewhat discouraging bunch of conversations, the good part was given its liveness this year, I was able to to meet a bunch of people who I'm following up with and hoping we can do some thoughtful things. Yeah, that's a big thing going on with me. And one little note off of what came off of Kevin's conversation, even though he's not involving himself in it, just the whole idea of governance and voting and decision making, I just want to really respond to the idea of like non yes, no, and in fact, non binary decision making and voting and giving people opportunity to make, you know, to do ranked choice of statements so that there are so many ways in decision making for overlap to be found that a two-party system and, you know, yes, no issues just make impossible. I mean, I swear if like people could pull their different strands of thought around abortion apart and say, you know, this really bothers me, but not as much as this bothers me and this, you know, number of weeks seems, you know, I really think that the consensus decision would probably basically be the state that was, you know, created by Roe v. Wade, but, you know, nobody can see it as something other than a binary call of abortion, fine abortion murder, you know, which is not really the practical decision to be made. Anyway, that's what's up with me. Thanks. It's interesting because the two parts of that conversation come together for me, because I'm actually going to be hosting a Twitter space and Michael, reach out to me if you want to be a part of that with a guy from something called, I can't remember, but it's one of the web-based, the web-three-based privacy chats and some, and Tibet Sprague, who's working on Hila, which is a social network. And I'm going to bring in Commander Taco as well. Commander Taco has also from Slashdot because the moderation on Slashdot for, I think all of us are old enough to have remembered it, if, you know, was brilliant. It was a great, it's a great idea. Instead of like thumbs up, thumbs down, you get moderation capabilities, you get to know who's a troll, you get to know who's insightful, who's redundant, like there was these seven things, it's still running today and it's running on some old Drupal platform, but Commander Taco has agreed to also be in this conversation. And it started when I was talking to this guy from, I can't remember what it is, this privacy-preserving thing, Sessions, I think it's called. And I was saying, look, if you want to create the new social network or the new chat platform, you've got to make it significantly better than what we've got now, which is either completely algorithmically controlled like Twitter and Facebook or completely like just in the order it's done threaded chat that you can never sort through. It's got to be some kind of feed that makes sense to you. And if you want people to get on it, there has to be something better. And so what I was saying is that Slashdot was kind of a better moderation. And the other thing I said to him is, if I were creating a group and I wanted cohesion, which is what we were talking about with the yes-no voting, and I were creating chat, it might have prompts like, would you like to say that a little bit differently? Or this will give you more influence if you first mention the good parts of their proposal and then mention the bad part. And it's kind of teaching you to converse better. And if I were a community manager, there would be a reason for me to move to a platform like that. Whereas when we see even Hilo and all these stuff, it's like it's not significantly better in a way that says something like, we'll make your community get along better if you move to our social media platform. And so I mean, interoperability is useful. And there's always problems. The problems that you've mentioned with interoperability are the same ones. It's like, get a bunch of geeks together and talk about how many, you know, how many bytes are in the header and what is going to be the order in which you're going to put the date and it's like, ah, you know, that could be a year. But there is, what? I was just going to say, we were working on, you mentioned Tibet and Tibet and I are in this group called the Collaborative Technology Alliance. You've been to a session there and we had a profile schemas group. And honestly, we got, you know, I mean, not that we didn't actually go further, but the sticking point of should a name be a single field or two and, you know, people just get stuck on stuff like that and you never get anywhere. But I also just wanted to respond to what you were saying about the difference between an algorithmic feed. And, you know, I think algorithms themselves are sort of our misnomer for attention, deriving primarily ad view driven things that make a feed sticky, things that make a feed supposedly interesting to you, but not really interesting and useful as much as sticky and getting you to keep clicking versus what could also be called an algorithm, which is something that is more than the totally gross everything in chronological order without differentiation, the in between being an algorithm that you create and people would be, oh, I don't know how to write an algorithm, but basically if you were able to on a flexible basis create filters for, you know, now I want to see all stuff that, you know, is about this subject that Grace made a comment on, you know, I mean, just having the tools to at any given moment create an algorithm without knowing you were creating an algorithm. Or I want serendipity right now and I want to see a bunch of things that are about subjects I don't usually look for, or from sources I don't usually, you know, all those kinds of choices. And that's doable. And yeah, helpful. Yeah, totally. I mean, you know, I talk about this, you know, when you buy a larger set of pants, the algorithm just starts selling you larger clothing. It doesn't sell you more nutritional food, because it doesn't care. So there's ways to do algorithms that are, yeah, certainly that is part of the keep seeing the note, the fathom note taker unmuting itself and like what the hell is that about? Okay. So let's go Carl, Klaus, Stacy, Carl? Yeah, it's, I just spent the past couple of days, there's a group that's been looking at the future of text and looking at, at virtual reality type of thing. And then there I found out there's this huge, there's a huge group of people that I'm really looking at the accessibility of VR environments for people with disabilities. I've been really intrigued with that and figuring out that's my, I work at general service administration addressing those kind of issues. So that was pretty fascinating. I'm still kind of, I'm working on my PhD, but I went through until I'm going to be reapplying next summer. It's taking some time. My primary mentor is leading one of the SIGs of the IEEE, the International Society for the System Sciences. So we actually have a meeting this afternoon. It turns out the woman who's been co-facilitating some of his events, she's actually the President-elect for IEEE for the 2023-2024. She's actually a professor at George Washington University here in DC, but has been on a three-year project over in France, but that it's ending at the end of the year. So a lot of intriguing pieces there because I'm, I might, I'm not sure if I'm a customer too, but I've been using the brain since night to meeting Harlan back in 1998. So I'm seeing how that ties in. And just going back to Bakes, as I mentioned a couple times before, there's this, well the latest piece of it is it's the Zettelkasten method. I think Michael was talking about that some too, but it's, it, I've seen it framed as the like GTD for writing and stuff. So that's, that's a big issue for me because I've been, I've got so much writing to do and it's just so overwhelming. So how can you break it down into small pieces and then construct stuff so that it looks like this is like the perfect approach and the brain can take, take it to a whole other level. So what's going on for me? What's the kind of writing that you're working on? What are you thinking? Well, dissertation is the core, core thing, but just, yeah, I have lots of ideas for, for writing. In fact, yeah, I came up with SED, somebody else's dissertation. Doug will be happy to know. It's like when I know it's out of, out of scope. And things on, yeah, it's really amazing, the German sociology professor that is known for really taking that method to a whole other level and stuff. He, I think in like 30 years, he wrote 60 textbooks and published over 400 scholarly articles and stuff. So it is all basically it was like a card catalog system, but then he had a way of organizing the cards and reorganizing and so like a whole linking strategy type of thing. So it's really intriguing. And it's kind of, I have to feel like it's kind of been a missing piece for me. And I can see it now too. I got my, I had to have cataracts or a degree of, back in August, finally got my glasses for distance. I got them optimized to see closed up. So reading and waiting on the computer. I don't need glasses at all, but it's been a struggle until not having the distance too. So. Wow. Congratulations. See, it's good. And while working at General Sir's administration, I mean, we're at the core, core of everything, really. I mean, so many were just one of the things that's fascinating is I was attended. We have the public building service. We manage all the federal properties and stuff. And there's a whole landscaping horticulture group. And it's like there's, they've gone through and there's like the species of bees that are indigenous to a region. And then there's what there's like the whole planting strategy to like a whole pollinator strategy or whatever. And it's really fascinating. I mean, I didn't realize how much like specific species of bees have, have like the symbiotic relationship with species of flowers and they, the flowers kind of tend to bloom. They're actually kind of coordinating their blooming schedule so that to attract, I mean, it's just fascinating stuff that I mean, you know, and of course, green buildings stuff. So all of, you know, and so we really help, we're helping so many other agencies provide their services and things. So it's, that's been making the dissertation challenging too, because almost any social justice issue I'm interested in GSA plays a critical role in for the federal government's implementation of things. So it's like that's where I've been trying to carve out that little my, my niche, how I can contribute and stuff. So that's where I'm awesome. And that's perfect because now we're going to have Klaus and I'm sure he'll have something to say about bees. In fact, that's what I wanted to start with. I love that the bees and flower and that's what she because nature is based on relationships. And, and, and we don't appreciate and understand these complex relationships that are playing out in nature. I mean, we talk about mushrooms, for example, trees communicating across underground networks, which we are disrupting because we take the oldest tree out, which embeds all the wisdom and the differences. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's really, yeah, we have done, we have done some crazy stuff with nature. That's for sure it's playing out right now. Yeah, so I've been trying to get a conversation going and Stacy and Eric have participated just to, to, to try to figure out how do you, how do you relate with people who don't have the time inclination, whatever capacity resources to dial into complex issues related to climate change now and in particular, as it relates to the food supply. So I mean, I'm, I'm, and I keep saying this and food and agriculture is completely at the same level of importance as is the energy sector. Now you can't fix climate change and adaptation and mitigation without addressing food and agriculture, because we were doing so much damage in the natural world, which is now playing out with decarbonized the soil and we're taking trees out. We're overfishing the oceans in the traumatic waves or any understanding of the implications, but that really means because we have no global impact. That's just so yesterday that China is fishing out the Galapo Island region there. I mean, they have hundreds of fishing boats out there and pull everything out. Now, I mean, in the worst way with these mile long drag nets. So, so, and I've been not successful, I don't think at all. I mean, trying to get some, some format going and I hate to say the word structure because obviously that's the wrong approach. But, but to how do you talk to a housewife who has a couple of kids and is stressed out all day long? And how do you explain stuff to her so that a housewife will change, will understand, you know, and adapt her buying behavior, her consumption behavior in ways that is contributing to this collective shift that we have to make now towards local sourcing, buying food from farmers who grow regeneratively and so on and so on. And, and so I'll try again to see if we can, we can open this conversation up in ways that is more constructive and really looking for for inputs and then I probably would be better to not be the moderator of the conversation. Maybe I just should be the contributor, you know. But I think it is so important right now to give people tools to, to, to have some autonomy in helping out, you know, in, in, in assisting, you know, this adaptation. I mean, right now when you look at what is happening in Florida, my God, you know, I mean, this year has been catastrophic on a global level. When you think the Yangtze River in China running triad, the Rhine River, on the Rhine River, I saw a picture a couple of weeks ago, where the Rhine River has dropped so low that it exposed a stone, right. And in that stone was carved, it was carved in 1600 something. And it said, if you see me, go home and weep, you know, because it meant that, but if you see me, that means the water level is so low, you will have crop failures, you know, you will suffer. And, and so that's, it's global, right. I mean, it's, this storm right now is going over central Florida regions where it wipes out all the crops that are still standing. Now, and we had the same cancers in Mexico, California is out of order. So we, we have, we are looking at, we're looking at 2023 with massive disruptions. We don't process this yet, but global crop failures and then on top of it, the war between Russia and the Ukraine, I mean, between Russia and Ukraine, one-third of global cranes are coming from that region now. So, so countries like Lebanon and Yemen and, you know, poor Egypt, you know, we'll find it very difficult to, to supply their populations with basic food. So the Europeans are, of course, at huge risk because they're at risk of massive immigration attempts. I mean, the reason why Italy is moving right is because they have been overwhelmed with immigration from Africa. And they're basically saying enough, we can't do this, right? It's destroying our culture and so on. So, so how do you talk to different groups of people and say, you know what, you can help by maybe have a meatless Monday, you know, or focus on a more vegetable forward, you know, plant forward kind of food of dining, support your local farmer, engage, support businesses that are dialing into this. So that's, that's getting, getting these messages structured in ways that you have easy talking points is what I'm, what I'm trying to, to, to do. And it's more complicated than I thought it would be. It's interesting. I, I just spent a week or a couple of days with Diana Finch from the Bristol Pagg in Bristol, and she was talking about how all these programs will focus on the, on the lower class people and helping them out. And, you know, it always looks good. We're going to help out these people who are dealing with, you know, difficult problems in community centers. And she said, but that's not the problem. The problem is the people in the nice neighborhoods are using a lot of electricity and buying these foreign foods and, you know, but you can never get funding for that. What are you going around to help enrich people? They don't need your help. And so it's very interesting what you're also referring to. It's like it's, it's sometimes starting with the strong communities is what makes sense. But we don't look there. And then it's like, Oh, well, why should I care? Even in my own life, I'm looking at it. And I've decided to reduce my, my use of heating by half this year. And it's very visceral for me because I use wood. And so I know how much I ordered. And that's it. And why should I, I could afford it. And so it's one of those things that those are the people that it's, and I traveled by train throughout Europe. And I flew back, but, but I traveled all the way from here to Berlin to London. And boy, it's really expensive and takes a long time. But I know that that's what makes a difference. It's not the people who are poor who are consuming everything. You know, it's people who've got more who can consume more who this education also needs to get to. All right. So we've got Stacy, Doug, and then Gil, Stacy. Yeah. So I had originally put in the chat that I would pass, but I'll just say real quickly that Thomas Ubel has been running a collective trauma webinar. And one of the talks that I listened to was Stephen Forges on polyvagal theory, which I didn't know anything about. And I found it really interesting. I'm going to go further into that because it really gave the scientific background to the things that I've grown to know intuitively when it comes to using music and humor and things like that. But this actually does tie in to what Grace just said in response to Klaus because, you know, I've been thinking we're we're not targeting the people. Well, I was thinking of in two separate ways. For one, in terms of people that have the power to make decisions, they're the people that, and I don't just mean in turn, I'm not talking about food, I'm talking about, you know, people in power with great material wealth, they're the ones that have the most to lose. And so they're already in a defensive stance. And it just seems so often we're trying to unite to like fight against them. And it just seems almost counterintuitive. But when you think about worrying about how to help them, that also makes people feel prickly. Like, why are we worried about, you know, why are we worried about the oil companies? They're horrible. And, you know, on the other side, like what Grace was saying, you know, for, for me, you know, in an affluent community, just hearing all this, you know, gloom and doom, people don't want to hear that. We're in our nice air conditioned homes, eating at our fancy restaurants. Most people don't want to hear things are going to change. So I don't know, there's a lot in there that's just been playing around in my mind. So I have nothing more to share. But that's what I've been thinking about. But class, I am looking forward to Tuesday, because there are a lot of things that I want to share there. Thank you, Grace. I need help, obviously. But there is, you know, I'm cautiously optimistic, right, because the food system has the capacity to decentralize and things that Kevin is working on, for example, you can develop a cottage industry, you know, where people can rent a commercial kitchen, USDA approved and everything and cook meals, you know, for low income folks, instead of going to Walmart buying some processed crap, right? You can, for the same money, for much less money, you can cook a simple meal and feed people with healthy nutritional foods, right? I mean, a McDonald's meal, for example, $8, $10 or whatever for that money, you can make a stew. You can do, there's a lot of simple recipes using legumes, for example, that we are all familiar with, with minimal amounts of protein, because you don't need as much protein as we normally eat, as we now eat. So there are ways for communities to secure themselves and find employment, you know, within. Instead of, I mean, this, the federal government is spending hundreds of billions of dollars on nutritional assistance programs, a SNAP program. 76% of the farm bill is for nutritional assistance programs. But most all of that money is being, being warped up by Walmart, by Kroger, you know, the big companies. So, so you have that money go into a community and it goes right back out, right? Whereas if you develop a cottage industry in the community, then that money that the government puts in starts rolling, right? Because now that money turns because you have local people, you know, serving local people and bringing money that stays in the community and holds several times. So that's the, the, the opportunity that is so exciting, but you, you have to work your ways through a massive regulatory hurdle at any level of cover. If I could just add real quick, and I don't know if I mentioned it here, but there were like vouchers given out, and I think it was to support our farmers market, but it might have been to support the elderly community. I'm not sure, but what I do know is that they never made it to anyone. You know, and I called the local agencies and they were like, oh, you know, there's a backlog, but bottom line is they didn't make it to anybody. And that money supposedly is sitting somewhere. The other thing I want to say is don't, you know, like when you said like meatless Mondays, things like that, those little things mean a lot. I remember, you know, we were having vegan nights. Now I'm not vegan, but on that night I was, and there's something about feeling like you're part of something. And again, those little changes sort of get into your head, you know, and my friends and I were looking for new vegan recipes. I think anything that makes you feel like you're doing it together is a positive step. Yeah. Yeah. And again, with the Bristol Pound, Diana, who, who she, she's retiring from that, like it didn't work having just a local currency because only the people who were kind of already bought into buying local would use this local currency. And they were trying to like make it sound really good. And it all it sounded like was a bunch of hippie, tippy, rich people are using it. And it was a big pain in the butt for the, for the shop, for the shops, because they had to have another system next to their POS system next to their cash system. It's like this whole big thing. But what she's been developing, and if you want to have her into your little conversation, Klaus, is she's, and she hasn't gotten it funded, but she's put together at least the basic ideas behind. It's kind of a community search, like little badges, you know, like you get for brownie points or whatever. And the idea is that the community determines in some ways what it is they want. So they have one thing that's like the one meter club where you dig up a meter of your patio and just let it grow, or points for buying the local CSA. And I used it all up. I figured out what to do with radishes in the winter, you know, like little points. And I rode my bicycle to work and all of these points that some of the local NGOs would like issue the certificate, or you would self declare it, and the community could decide for themselves which certificates they want to honor. And would it mean anything? No, but it's like you were saying, Stacey, like, I feel like I belong because all my friends have, you know, rode their bike to work. Oh, you only rode your bike three times. I rode my bike four times. And so they were creating these kinds of, she has a whole model for it. So if you wanted to have her in to talk about that, I'm sure she'd be glad to talk about. And it was all around community cohesion and sustainability. And how do we create these as community projects? And she's also had a lot of ideas, which she of course comes up against regulatory and landlords and whatever. What if we took all the people who lived in this neighborhood and instead of having all of our separate boilers, we've got one hot water heater for the whole neighborhood. And they live in the particular neighborhood she lives in, it's 72 units that are owned by this, I don't know this, the English have this weird thing. So you own a 99 year like rights to stay there kind of lease thing. It's kind of like, and then they own the land and any improvements. And so she was trying to propose this to them like we could improve your land and reduce the energy costs by doing this. And they were like, well, if you do a whole pricing for it, then maybe we'll give you permission to do this crazy project on our land. But it wasn't, they didn't see it as an improvement of their housing units. So but there are those kinds of, like I said, she's worked out a lot of these different ideas on how to bring communities together and what really works. And that might be something that can help you guys, it's not monetary incentive, but it's something like you were saying, any person could understand, oh, I get a little bit of a token and maybe the coffee shop gives me a little discount if I've got this much, whatever ranking, if I'm a black belt at a college year, I don't know. Has she done it or is it just concept? Right now it's a concept based on, I think she may have run some little experience, but it's a concept based on the failure of the current system that she's been running for four years. I'd love to talk to her. That sounds interesting. Yeah, if you can share her contact. Okay, I'll introduce you. They're also ending the project at the end of 10 years and it didn't succeed and they're ending it and she'll be looking for work. So she's happy to get her feelers out and talk to other people about the work that she's done and teach and stuff like that. Cool. Okay, so I think we've got Doug now. So I'm sort of preoccupied with the fundamental idea of how do we do us different and better as a species and getting free and clear and out of the prevailing paradigm and frame and orientation. So coming at that question from a really blank slate kind of place. And most of my time in the last 10 years has been doing field work. Like how do we talk to each other? Like what's step one in human beings co-creating together? Like what's the first thing? Since most initiatives seem to start at chapter four or five and then rattle apart because the foundation wasn't laid. So in Kevin's share where I go is like, you know, what was the foundation for everybody getting busy? And I'm also an attorney and I'm working with Kim Wright on integral law, which really doesn't have anything to do with law. It has to do with what's the replacement for the current legal system. Like what's the new that is needed? And I'm finding and I'm working with an array of other people that are coming at different pieces of the elephant with the same ask. Like what's needed and what's what's the new? Like how do we replace all this stuff that doesn't really serve needs? Like the source of it all was driven by ownership, competition, scarcity, fear, control, power. So that's pretty much my work and figuring out how to crack the nut. Klaus, you were thinking about, you know, how do I get this across? Or how do I land and register? How do I make this, energize this for a housewife, for somebody who's in the middle of the existing paradigm with no sort of connection or awareness or openness beyond individual daily life meeting needs and keeping up with the Joneses and the prevailing paradigm and orientation. And a lot of where I've gotten to and find myself focusing in on more and more is if people are not in feeling, they're not open and in learning. Like they're not susceptible to new things. And so, you know, that water dimension, that emotional dimension is a critical piece of the puzzle. And all of the preoccupation with knowledge and with data and with facts and with solutions, with all of that stuff, which is all, you know, up in air and mental body dimension, is sort of for naught if the awakening and opening up to that sort of needed on a really massive level isn't catalyzed somehow first. So, how to create a safe container for people to sort of come back to life reawaken. How to catalyze that without any English or agenda without it being power playing power control authority over, even if in very subtle form, like not coming with where you want them to end up, but coming with empowering and reconnecting with power in their own power, their own voice, their own creativity, their own entitlement as as card carrying members of the human race. Like those fundamental levels are where I'm sort of focused. And with virality technology in its ability to trigger massive unbelievably fast propagation and and catalyzing of movements, awakenings, trends, you know, whatever, even if in superficial cultural pop culture frames, right, like how many how long did it take for everybody to start bringing buckets over their head. Like figuring out how to employ the tools and resources in service to that awakening from a catalyzing place without agenda and projection is sort of my preoccupation. Sorry for the length of that, but with that I'm done. A little curious about the legal frameworks like how do you think about cross border things is that one of the things that's coming up because, you know, one of the things that we're seeing is like this. It's like we're in these legal frameworks that are geographically bound that don't make any sense. Well, the the antecedent roots of all those borders were the few projecting maps that met their interests and and compromises relative to each other in power control authority over. None of that was in service to people. It was in service to minerals. It was in service to wealth. It was in service to control. And part of the sort of fundamental consciousness, awakening and shift in orientation is taking things that are inconceivably institutionalized and imprinted out of the equation. So like where did ownership come from? And why is that a cornerstone principle of everything? And if you take ownership out, what happens? You know, and it's not a complete blank slate mystery because indigenous folks don't own anything they're part of, they're integrated with. It never occurred to them to like project ownership or anything. So I have given voice to that in very straight, legitimate, professional contexts, like take ownership out. You know, I had a friend who had a company and he was he had decided to to he started playing with appreciation tokens. And he ended up going to I want to literally transform the whole company into a token based model. And and he said I got a problem because I want John and Jake and public to be able to, you know, engage with the company and participate and contribute. But in order to do that, I run into securities less. I've got to go public. And I looked at him and I said, what if you take ownership out? What if you don't have ownership? If you eliminate ownership, which is a symbol or stock represents a piece of ownership of a thing, a res, a piece of property, that's about deriving value from the fact of immediate. If you take that out, but you look at the other facets, which is decision making, right, and sort of control authority expressions or decision making around directions, that can be handled separate from ownership. If you want to, if you look at it as participation in profits and losses, or appreciation in value of the whole, well, that actually can be handled contractually, doesn't require ownership. It's about the agreement and consensus of the whole. So it is possible to extrapolate. And I said, if you take ownership out, you eliminate the concept of securities representing ownership, then the securities less don't apply. You're no longer in regulated territory. It's the agreements buying between the people. You don't have public offering. You don't have any of that crap. You have a living organism with agreements covering different facets of its flow, its value flows, its decision flows, its generative flows. Why not? Don't invite ownership to the party, take it out. So are there ways, are there orientational shifts that enable a completely different way of relating to what's needed, responding to actually what's needed in service to the people that are doing what they're doing? And everything changes. So I took the other pill. I'm out of the matrix. The clock doesn't govern. I don't provide services on a quid pro quo exchange basis, transactional basis. My needs get met through a completely different thought process and orientation. And my value contributions, my value contribution, if I can help, call. And so it's like all sorts of things reorder when you get out from under. So two quick questions. All right. One is the same one Gil asked, is what about perpetual trust? But the second is I would love to see a tip talk, a day by day of you and your economic exchanges or resource exchanges and what it looks like. Here's the old Doug. Here's the new Doug. I would really love to see. I think I buy into what you're sort of saying, but I'm sure would love to see it. Well, well, first of all, it's still work in process. Yeah, sure. But I sort of made the decision to decouple from transaction in terms of providing value to others as in a value ecosystem frame severed from how does value flow to meet needs because like you got to meet needs and the accuracy is part of that. And like that has to be handled and approached. And I'm not I'm not buying any lear jets anytime soon. But like, is there enough flow back? Based on appreciation, based on interest in supporting my commitment to doing it differently. Like, you know, clinging that together is has been, you know, an adventure. Is it, you know, is there abundance of fiat currency? No. But I'm still playing with it. Like I'm playing with how to do that. And, and what's come out of that focus on that is I'm starting to zero in on what's the narrative? What's the story and the framing around that piece that reflects a shifting of the orientation of the people that want to flow value to me if they choose. So I'm like really into the weeds with that right now. But happy to share. Yeah, I've tried. I've tried a bunch of interesting things. And I'm, you know, there are some emergent things that like have got me tickled, but that are really, you know, event horizon territory. But it's that it comes down to like, there's some narrative around what's the new, what's the orientation framing and setting that stage contextualizing it. So anyway, you know, there was a magic Sam who used to advertise on Soul Train. And he would, he would get plastic footprints, and then he would give you instructions on where to put the footprints. I'd love to have that from what you're doing, you know, magic Sam version. Yeah, I think I happen. I'm not solid enough yet to be able to generate that, but I'm getting closer. I'm getting closer. Doug, the narrative is already compelling. But while you're working on Kevin's TikTok and plastic footprints, could you just give us like a tiny snapshot of how you obtain food and shelter within this scheme? Just like make, you know, Doug should practical give me one example because I love where you're going, but I'm not grasping it yet. Well, what the, it was a series of sort of committing to not covering that the old way. Like the first was to say not that. And then literally, it took two years to figure out what's on me to enable value to flow to get to me for money to get to me. And so I had to set up the means for somebody to send me cash. That's a two years. I know that might sound insane to all of you, but like my response, you know, my end of it required me to say, you know, here's a PayPal this or here's a, you know, bank wire stuff there or here's another channel or means here. That's on me. Let me shift the question a little bit. The mechanisms for movement of currency is clear. I've got my PayPal. I've got my fiat. What's the conversation you're having with the people that you're engaged with that invites the flow in the way that you're talking about? Well, the share is basically, it's in the context of somebody comes looking for help or somebody comes looking for legal or whatever. And I share that I do not do that in a transactional frame. I do need to live. And I do appreciate it when people support me and contribute to me. So it's shifted into that frame. But the providing of the service, the providing of the help, the providing of whatever is needed that's in my wheelhouse is not linked to a quid pro quo. So are you, are you talking about gift economy basically? Well, the gift economy construct is a little bit different because we're really in Shadowland here, so bear with me. It's offering the person sitting across the table the moment to think about what it means to them in the context of, okay, I'm not paying you. I want your help, right? I'm not paying you. But I would like to do something. And in that context, I've tried different things. It's the old story about the church donation box. And the one that's just on the wall outside the church door with nothing is empty. And the one that's on the wall outside the door, there's a little sign that says suggested donation $5 in that people very often need or would like help or information for me to calibrate, right? To have a way of orienting to, if I wanted to donate something, what would I donate? What would I want to give you? So that's one dimension. There's another dimension that's, you know, why are you doing this and sharing where I'm coming from, which is I really want to, like, hold cloth. I want to figure out a new way of relating to that side of it. And how I need my needs. And then buying into that just the exercising concept of that and going, you know what, here, I'm going to send you X dollars a month. And I'm sort of multiplying variations on those themes. Not from an orientation of dark arts in, you know, manipulation, coercion, incentivization, inducement, right? For them to send me money out of, you know, guilt or out of obligation or out of any of that stuff. But literally, I realized sort of an extension of my job is to give people a way of orienting how they want to do that if they're moved to do it. So I've drunk my own Kool-Aid in terms of not using the old, any aspect of the old and how I have to solve this. So anyway. So suggested price, suggested donation sounds sort of like price, but not exactly, but sort of like, what this echoes for me kind of my favorite story about this was a guy I knew years ago who was an ag advisor in the Fresno area. And these are the folks who advise farmers about what to do and how to grow and have a plant. And typically, they make most of their money from selling pesticides. So it's, you know, it's like the conflict of interest of the pharmacist, all the drugs they dispense to you. It's like, you know, crazy scheme. He invented something differently. He said to the farmers, I will work with you for the season. At the end of the season, you pay me what I was worth. No questions asked. And he claimed that he averaged about double the revenue per acre that the pesticide hawkers were making. And it's clearly a trust relationship, which seems an important part of what you're talking about. This would be hard to do on a street corner in the middle of New York City with strangers maybe, or maybe not actually, maybe not. Anyway, I look forward to hearing more about this with you. And by the way, open invitation to all of you. You know, freestyling here. I am open and interested and, you know, anybody that has a take or an idea or an insight that is in alignment, right, doesn't involve resorting to old paradigm, old tricks, but, you know, would be something to think about or talk about or explore. I'm like, please, you know, reach out. And I need to reschedule, so we'll do that. I've obviously worked a lot with those types of things because of the workshop I did. And when I did the workshop, I haven't done it a long time. I'll probably go back to it pretty soon. And so there'll be another cohort you all can join, but it's always pay what feels right to you. There's a suggested price so that you have like an orientation. There's price, there's two things. One is courses of this type are charged from this to this range. And then there's suggested global North price. And then there's pay what you want. And then when you sign up, you don't pay. When you sign up, you get a 15 minute interview with me that kind of makes people actually come to the course. Because if you're not paying, you have this like free in your mind and it doesn't work. It's because it's your first classroom. And then around around session four, I put people into groups of three and I say, okay, talk about how this is going for you, this not paying thing or pay what you want. And some have paid by then, some haven't. And they have these discussions about like, what it's worth, what does that even mean? And then it's good. And I ended up netting between $5 and $12 an hour. But it wasn't my main business, right? Another way that I've seen that done is people who'll say, okay, what's your dream outcome? And what's it worth to you if I get 100% of that? And then work with me. And then whichever percentage of that you think you got, pay me like you were saying. But at the beginning saying, what is your dream outcome? It also creates a really useful frame that you know if you're going towards it or not. So yeah, Michael, you wanted to add something. Yeah, I just I'm really struck by the relationship between what we're talking about here and UBI and the scaling of a group of people, you know, on up to everybody who are giving their skills and not having to worry about eating and having shelter, you know, just like it can be done, a sort of group UBI can be done among people without involving government. And there's also the notion of how that's distributed and people understanding, say in your case, Doug, the gifts, not meaning gift economy, but the services and skills that you have on offer and saying, I don't need that now, but I'm going to spend this even or uneven amount per month in Doug's direction, knowing that when I need that Doug's there for me. And then how can you scale that above beyond that? That's definitely a facet in this, right? And I think there's also when you separate, when you bifurcate the contributing from the, how do I meet my needs? It makes the needs piece stand on its own as a subject, as a basis of inquiry, as an orientation. And it also makes the distinction between needs and wants really much more real, right? And, you know, my needs are, you know, probably around $1,900 a month. Like I'm not living large. It's not that expensive. And that could probably be lowered if I were, you know, really focused on that. And, you know, and that's intrinsic to the orientational shift that needs to happen globally, because it's in the imbalance of the people, you know, the people that have taken everything out of balance with massively gross accumulations of wealth at the expense of, because it's in a, it's in a closed system, right? So, you know, for somebody to be a trillionaire means there are a whole bunch of people starving. And if I sort of subscribed to the idea that like if we're actually going to a verdant extinction, it's all of us are nervous. And that means the haves are really going to have to sort of like make some adjustments. So, sensitizing to, you know, what is a need? And to that idea of, you know, creating an ecosystem or community where the needs aren't, it's not about like everybody in Dowland and in these alternative, you know, experiments gets preoccupied with how to, you know, track or measure a cruel of entitlement to token. Like, you know, what is this person's contribution versus that's person's contribution? And that is not an inquiry that has to do with what are those people's needs. That's an inquiry of, you know, reducing people to transactional frames. And that's old paradigm, that's not going to do it. Anyway, sorry. Yeah, I mean, it's exactly what priceless is about, right? Like the priceless now it's like you can't, and this whole thing about how do we, people always ask me, how do we incentivize? I'm like, no, no, how do you de-incentivize everything, de-incentivize everything, let people give freely, like, what would that look like? And I think that, I mean, if I were going to just sort of, we've talked about this topic, like it's come up, I want to get to a couple more people, but this topic has kind of been underlying a number of the conversations that we've been having here. You know, everything from food, like I said, when the pandemic hit, the first thing that people did in Slovenia was plant a garden, right? And it's like, the one underlying theme, I think, is how can you use less money? How can you be more locally resourced? And, and, and everything from eating your food locally and buying your food locally, maybe it's not cheaper right now, but it's using less of the world's resources. And, and, and I think that's sort of something we can all do. And I've been playing with a lot and sounds like you've been playing with a lot. And, and those are, those are real questions. And it's one of the reasons I left the US in 1990, I just said, these people, they don't understand the difference between what they need and what they want. Like matching hand towels and so you invite a guest, isn't the need, but you kind of feel like you need that. Otherwise, what's the guest going to think of, you know? Anyway, Gila's next, and then maybe we'll get to some of the people who showed up late. I guess I'll go with Gil. And then if anybody of the people who arrived at the top of the hour, maybe whoever feels like they really want to add something, that'd be great. So Gil, if you're going to say something, you'll have to unmute. And if not, we can call on whoever feels called. Neither Gil nor his fathom note taker are saying anything. Klaus wants to say something. But we have, we have four people who joined who haven't said anything yet. And John is clapping. Is that, is that clapping a hand raise? Go ahead, John. That was a hand raise. Yeah, sorry. I just wanted to point out the article I just posted here, USDA opens people gardens initiative to gardens nationwide. I mean, there already is an understanding, deep understanding on the government side, you know, that we will have to revitalize the, what was this initiative called during World War II? Victory gardens. Victory gardens, right? So here it is. It's already, it's already on the radar. It's already being, being promoted and pushed forward now, because this is exactly where we're going. Yeah, great. John, then Mike. Okay, just a quick question and, you know, fine, if you've already done this, it's fine. But it strikes me, first of all, I can really appreciate, Grace, a decision to say, wait a minute, this is all wrong. And I need to, you know, really get a blank slate in terms of how people think about things. And I appreciate Doug's awareness of the difference between transactional kinds of connections with people and, and more relational. And it's, it's beyond gift economy. But that's the step in that direction. As a transitional process, I've, I've been trying to imagine different futures in which the president is breaking down, but it hasn't fully collapsed. And people are trying to grow something else. And in versions of that, I have a, you know, a kind of a green crypto, which is asset backed. And you can only, you know, it's, it's, it has anti-accumulation stuff built in. There's all the, everybody knows how to do this. I mean, the people who work with Crypto God do it. And, but the reason why you put that in place is you'd kind of have this bifurcation. You're not going to completely get rid of the fiat. You're not going to get completely get rid of the whole thing. I mean, it's just, it's just too massive a, a change unless, unless we have mass death or something, you know, which, and then the, then the change might, might happen. But I don't want to get that, I don't want to get there that way. I can imagine a system in which there's, there's UBI defined as basic needs, not, not with a rough income figure, but more like, look, food, shelter, water, you know, that's it. Everybody's entitled to that. It's not transactional. You know, you don't have to ask for it. You know, it's not like, you know, come beg and then we'll give it to you. No, no, no, no, that's, that's basic. Everybody gets that. And then there's elements of this other system that are still around and people are still playing with the other system, but the, the two systems are kind of coexisting and competing for a while. And it seems, it's very hard to design that, but it seems kind of realistic in terms of if I'm imagining partial collapse and partial evolution of the alternative eco village kind of thing coming up. So I just want to put that out. It's, it's not a, not a statement as much as a question is what are the versions of that that are possible and, and you know, can we do, can we do useful work in thinking, thinking through that? That's it. I would really love to do you. So I've done a lot of work on that. And I've got three different models we want to try out. And I have no idea how to get funding for it. But yeah, I think that's exactly the space we're in. And we do have things like Climadow and other kinds of things that are trying to do that. But I think we are exactly in that world. Like there is this transition going on and yeah, but right now the most likely way the transition will happen is not in a planned way. Mike. Just a couple of quick things. Sorry, I couldn't join earlier. I had a call I was chairing. Has anybody joined unfinished? I'm hoping to watch Jerry tomorrow morning, even if it's four AM our time. But if you haven't, I mean, I hope they tape it. And also I wanted to make sure people saw that Ken Homer had done an interview with Jerry. And that looked at something worth sharing. Okay, good. And just to do a little self promotion tomorrow at nine o'clock, Carnegie is doing a discussion on data policy, particularly focusing on Korea and India. But I'm chairing that it's a report that we pulled together and released last month. One expert from Korea, one from India and then some people from France and New York to really talk about, you know, how do we get people to share data, which then ties in the last comment to your conversation about getting people to do things freeware style. So much of the data the entire economy runs on is being maintained sort of as a labor for love. And a lot of the software, more and more the software is turning out to have just a little component here and there that, you know, is nonprofit and nobody's there supporting it, which can lead to some real problems. So I would love to have any help that any of you could provide on the software problem, you know, how are we going to maintain or improve the software that the digital transformation is being built upon. So just a challenge, just a little topic. But that's something I'm worried about these days. Thanks for a good conversation. Yeah, thanks. And please post the link to the thing that nine o'clock tomorrow morning, I'm definitely interested. And again, I can't believe I have to post links and I have to be both Jerry and Pete. It's like, that's way too much, not fair. Doug Carmichael. Hi. I'm probably muted. No, I'm not. I've been working on a project that fits in here to some degree. And that is in the problems in Pakistan. The government is looking at rebuilding the infrastructure so they can recover the economy. An alternative approach is that all the people who got flooded out know how to make shacks. They know how to plant little plots of food that might survive only for a few seasons. But they know how to do it. Supporting people with those skills would be a different approach to the redevelopment of Pakistan. And it would be a model to the world because I think the way those people live submerged now is the way we're all going to be living in the future. Thank you. And I'm going to call on Julian to wrap up because he's the only person I haven't spoken. And we're at the end, but it's just, you know, let's have everybody say at least a few words, Julian, or not. Maybe we'll just look at his beautiful landscape. Does anybody else want to say a few words just to wrap up? I will say a few words to wrap up. Thanks everybody for being on this OGM call and for letting me host it. It's been fun to be able to be the person who interjects my wisdom and arrogance in everybody's comments. So that's great. I like doing that. It makes me feel important. And thanks for a really deep conversation about, you know, what value is and how do we really make this transition real? I think that's, we're seeing more and more of that these days. People moving from talking about the problem to taking actions, little actions, big actions. And I'm really gratified to see that that's also the direction that this group has taken from just being a coffee shop where we talk about things where we actually share what we're doing and try to spread the doingness as well. So thank you, everybody. Nice work, Grace. It was a great one. Thanks. Thanks. Thank you. Thanks, guys.