 Good evening and welcome to Tiskey sour tonight. I am joined by Aaron Bustani co-founder of Navara Media and Matt Rack who is general secretary of the Fire Brigades Union. Thank you both for joining me this evening Tonight we're going to talk about last week's Grenfell report and the fallout that has followed its publication We will also talk about another weekend of dodgy bar charts from the Lib Dems and what will be an increasingly prominent feature of this Election right-wing newspapers claiming labors policy platform will bankrupt the country First though, I want to know about Aaron's recent trip to Sweden But before that I want to thank our kind subscribers for making Tiskey sour for making Navara Media possible As you know this show this channel is only possible because of your kind donation So if you are already a subscriber, thank you very much If not, please go to support.navaramedia.com and donate the equivalent of one hour's wage a month So we can continue working around the clock as ever like this video share this video keep your comments coming We'll go to your questions at the end. So Aaron, you've just come back from your book tour in Sweden You're promoting the book fully automated luxury communism, but from our conversation yesterday I feel like maybe you've come back as a ardent social Democrat. I wouldn't necessarily go that far Yeah, it was the translation of the book in Swedish. Hello to Mattis clicks communism And I was in Uppsala Malmo Gothenburg Stockholm and Copenhagen and Obviously what Swedes were very very eager to impress upon me was that this is not utopia We're subject to the exact same issues privatization outsourcing increased precarity However, they're a bit less further down the line than we are and just the entire experience of public transport Just of everyday life was completely different. I'll give you one example. I got a train from From Malmo to Gothenburg, I think and it was cheap 200 kilometers an hour free tea Nobody checked my ticket. There were no turnstiles and it's sort of you know, think about that There was no surveillance, you know, there was nobody saying here You know, give me 250 for a cup of tea if you just want something to sort of drink on a long trip And little things like that add up, you know, you know, every sort of experience every day every week every month every year They add up and that's why I think it's just a much more successful Better-run society than what we have. That's not because they're Swedish It's not because of the national character. It's just because they still have a bit more of that social democratic compromise That we know they have a they still have a bit more They have they always had more of it than us, right for the whole second half of the 20th Well, I think for instance healthcare is not as good as it is here. That's that's that's one example The things like yeah maternity pay Child child support, they've always been better at they're still very good at 18 months paid maternity leave Very generous sort of child support. I think my I mean, this is how weird it was the guy who published my book Who's mid 30s has four kids and that's like quite a normal thing Because they can afford to have kids there It's just not it's not it's not this crazy outlandish thing if you're in your early 30s to have kids there It's actually really normal to see lots of people in their 30s early 30s having kids And yeah, we get that England you don't get it in London You don't get it in Manchester, you know young low middle class working class even sort of relatively affluent people in London Can't really afford to have kids because the childcare costs mortgages, etc So I mean it was that was what really hit me huge difference So you get that kind of crossover between social democratic politics and sort of like a Christian family epic We like give us affordable housing and childcare, and then people can have the traditional families that they want to just if you want kids You can have kids whereas in Britain, you know I know people that have moved to Northern Ireland because they can't afford to have them in London You know, it's literally a different nation crazy. Okay, we're gonna talk about Grenfell it was six days after the 2017 general election that Grenfell towers went up in flames due to the flammable cladding That have been fitted in the building two years earlier an electrical fire in one flat rapidly spread across the whole building 72 residents died two years later and on the same day that the 2019 general election was announced the inquiry into the tragedy at Grenfell delivered its first report the element of that report Which was deemed most newsworthy was its damning criticism of the London fire brigade The inquiry found that response of the London fire brigade had had serious shortcomings And that wrong decisions made on the night increased the death toll of the incident in particular It judged the stay put strategy which encouraged residents to stay in their flats and wait for the fire to be put out Was kept in place long past the time at which it was clear the fire was out of control I'll just quote a key passage from the statement given by the chair of the report So this is from Martin more big who said And this is a quote the evidence taken as a whole strongly suggests that the stay put concept had become an article of faith Within the LFB. That's the London fire brigade so powerful that to depart from it was to all intense and purposes Unthinkable the fact that the commissioner was compelled to ask the rhetorical question It's all very well-saying get everybody out, but then how do you get them all out? Emphasizes that the LFB had never itself sought to answer that question in its preparations and training and had not equipped itself to carry out A total evacuation of such a building I Continue quite apart from its remarkable insensitivity to the families of the deceased and to those who had escaped from their burning homes With their lives the commissioners evidence that she would not change anything about the response of the LFB on the night Even with the benefit of hindsight only serves to demonstrate that the LFB is an institution at risk of not learning the lessons of the Grenfell Tower Fire so the commissioner they're referring to is the person who's in charge of the London fire brigade Matt you represent many of the men and women who responded to the Grenfell fire What do you make of the report and what do you make of its findings? I think we Um Concern we've said set out from the start is the ordering of the inquiry that's the focus is entirely on the response that night and clear That needs to be examined But before any firefighter turned out from North Kensington fire station before the first 9 9 I call The building had already been turned effectively into a death trap. That's all the fire safety provisions within the building had been compromised So the fire they faced was unprecedented in the UK. I'll come on to foreseeability in a moment And we don't think you can really assess that without looking at how it was put into that state Decisions, what's the regulatory regime? What's the inspection regime? Who who? Agreed the contracts all of those issues that actually created the situation whereby that fire spread in such a way That said in terms of the recommendations We are broadly supportive of the recommendations our criticism would be that they are some of them are directed to the London Fire Brigade We think they should be national that they apply to those these buildings are all over the country So it shouldn't just a prior to the London Fire Brigade where we have some concern is around the narrative around Decision-making on the night particular on some of the issues you've touched on because for us the To deal with emergency situations in a life and death situation you need to have planned for it And the truth is and I think there are questions to be answered about why it wasn't planned for but the truth it wasn't planned for and To expect people on the night to change Long-standing policies that they've been trained for on the which are national policies someone a quite junior level I mean quite junior levels in the London Fire Brigade to make those decisions. I Struggled to see how that could have actually happened I think the Secondary where we have some concerns is is the assertion because I don't think there is clear evidence in the report I actually had other decisions been made the outcome would have been significantly different That second one I I sort of expecting the first answer the second one I find a bit more surprising because it I suppose most people and I think this is what the resident groups are saying as Well as that the stay put advice which is based on the idea that a fire wouldn't spread from one flat to the other Yes, which quite rightly, you know, you're saying that was the expectation And it was because this flammable cladding was placed on the building that those expectations were no longer You know fulfilled by the way that the fire behaved But I thought there was general consensus that the stay put advice that had been given by the fire brigade did cause More deaths so so regardless of whose fault it was that that stay put advice was given. Yeah, that was a mistake no, I take I take understand the point, but I think the the Conclusions that the report reach aren't actually based on evidence that he sets out so the they were various expert witnesses who gave evidence to the inquiry Including Professor Barbara Lane who gave evidence and her window of opportunity for evacuation, for example is runs from 126 until 140 That's the most clear case that is made For an evacuation opportunity the inquiry concludes that that window is from 130 until 150 So for some reason they move from what their own expert witness has said to first of all to extend from 14 minutes to 20 minutes And it's a different time period the other expert witness who gave advice on evacuations gave a Series proviso and that is that it would have relied on a system of common fire alarms I mean a method by which the residents could have been alerted and that didn't exist There was no fire alarm system in Grenfell Tower and the point Oh wait, can I just I know this is sure there was no fire alarm system in Grenfell Tower? I don't know how that's the fact about this residential blocks of flats in the UK will not have common fire alarms They have smoke Sorry System by which an external body either the fire brigade or the landlord or whoever can alert every resident Okay, yeah to the need to evacuate. So there is no system by which The flax can easily be evacuated. So there are some quite No, our view is we don't know because it's not no flat in those snowbock effect in the UK has ever been evacuated in No circumstances. So the truth is we're open-minded on it We've called on the government since the fire to launch a review of that issue to assess it to test it to do drills and tests And it's a bit surprising that 28 months after the fire that hasn't happened And we have to wait till the inquiry report to make that recommendation that it should happen Let's go on to actually government responses in a moment. I want to part that for one second Just just in terms of this issue of I suppose could more lives have been saved So I know that what the what Danny cotton who's the LFB? Commissioner she was saying there was no way of you know planning of about how you would evacuate these people But I just presumed that given the building was you know given you passed a certain point It was worth the risk, right? It's just worth the risk trying to get people down instead of staying up there Well, I suppose all that were where we part company with the London fire brigade is on the issue of 4c ability that we think there Were warning signs both fires in Britain and fires elsewhere in the world where if we had proper national structures in the fire service Which we used to have and we don't have any more you would be horizon scanning you'd be looking new building design You'd be looking at what refurbishments of 1970s tower blocks means the truth is nobody has been doing that but most Obviously the lack of a house fire in London where a number of people died and the coroner Alerted authorities including the London fire brigade, but also central government about the need to review stay put So there are questions around around why that wasn't done at the time But I suppose it's in defensive decision-making on the night Considering people in very high positions of authority Had done nothing in over several years and considering government ministers were aware of this issue and had done nothing and considering government Ministers have done nothing since 2017 But to expect someone in the space of 20 minutes to make those decisions. I think that that raises some quite alarming Injustice in my view and what what's your Relationship as the general secretary of the fire brigade's union to the London fire brigade I mean because presumably I imagine you represent a lot of the rank and file who are out there who are rescuing people on that night And I think the report has been you know quite You know it's emphasized that the rank and file firefighters who turned up were incredibly brave and you know acted Incredibly honorably and most of the criticism has been towards people, you know further up the ranks of the London fire brigade What's what's your relationship to the different? You know levels of hierarchy in that organization. So we're one of the most highly unionized Industries in the UK so in the London fire brigade something like 96 97 percent of the uniformed workforce will be Members of our so of the people going into Grenfell Tower almost to a person and we know the people who weren't if you like members of ours However, I would say we are probably the most consistent critics of fire policy in the UK including of individual fire services Such as London fire brigade London fire brigade on the number of years ago under Boris Johnson's mayoralty In Barton the biggest ever cuts program in any fire service in the history of the UK we oppose that We oppose we've opposed the deregulation of the fire service, which we think lies behind a lot of what happened at Grenfell Tower So we're often we have a dialogue with chief officers and commissioners We often have disagreements and we there are areas on this issue where we Probably share some views and there are areas where we think actually there's a fundamental breakdown in the system that needs to be addressed In terms of this review I know you've said that you think they've done it in the wrong order so that they've looked at you know The fire brigade first and and what happened on the on the particular night instead of the You know this the systemic reasons that led to that fire and the people who are implicated in in putting flammable cladding on On a sky-rise building on a high-rise building. It is do you think that ordering there is? Is there some logic to it even though you critique it? Or do you think this is you know a stitch up and that and it's almost a bit of a conspiracy to try and Escape go the fire brigade as opposed to people who might have more structural power in society You can make a case why it's in that's in a way It's I suppose it's an easier bit of the inquiry because we're going to then move on to legislation Contracts and so on that's a far more complicated area possibly My fear is whether considering the length of time it's taken to get to the phase one report How long will it take to get to the phase two so we you know people? Assume present that that we're going to see major changes after phase two Well, that could be five or six years after the fire and the idea that we have to wait five or six years for fundamental change To the fire safety policy regime in the UK is is pretty alarming. I mean, it's a big It's a big broad question, but I mean what is your Principle, you know as general secretary of the fire brigade union as someone who was a fireman as someone who's you know He's got fire fighter. We say fire fighter. Sorry. He's got advanced knowledge You know of of these systems What's your analysis of how? Grenfell was able to happen and how it can be stopped from happening or how a similar tragedy can be stopped from happening in the future I think it is a story of deregulation people ask if it's about cuts cuts are a part of it, but it's far more about deregulation and The scrapping of standards so we had a fire service in the UK that was linked him to systems about building control You know how you build buildings the regulations around that the inspection of buildings and then the fire services role in that and From 2000 Well, actually the process started under in 1980 under Margaret Thatcher of saying our regulations are too strict We need to free up regulations to Enable businesses to invest and develop and develop and develop for example as far as I understand It used to be the fire brigade that would sign off a building to say that it was fire safe Yeah, and now the developers allowed to do that So we have we have a self-regulation system effectively and So people think the fire service can stop things happening the fire series has very limited powers to stop things happening It look at it from just from our point of view of the fire fire rescue service We used to have bodies which set national standards So that would be how you respond. Let's just take the issue of how you respond to a fire in a block of flats today you And this is post 2004 today You will go to a block of flats in London fire and you will get a response of X number of fire engines If you go across the board into Essex, you will get a completely different standard you go to the west and it is a complete Postcode lottery in that respect. So no national standards. No national standards in terms of appointment recruitment Different policies of how you fight fires even creeping in you the bodies that we used to have we used to have a take at the issue of Lucky horizon scanning as I was called it, you know, we did have a body the central fire brigade's advisory council Which existed from 1947 until 2004 and that looked all these issues of standards. How do you train? How do you trade the question of stay put moving from stay put to evacuation? They would have assessed how do you do that? And then how do we transfer that into the real world of telling the training firefighters on the ground to do it? That doesn't exist. So every fire service is doing this in their own way So and the complete fragmentation of the fire rescue So you used to be described as a national service delivered locally now you've got a localized fragmented service And that's part of the picture and then you look at the fire safety regime a shift towards self-regulation Self-assessment systems where and I'm not saying this is directly rights to Grenfell But systems where people who are fire risk assessors can set up in business with no qualifications at all That's the world that we're living in has anything changed since then what's been learned? What's Have these have buildings and I'm of the understanding there's still a lot of high-rise buildings with this flammable cladding on the outside of it And that action has been kind of disgracefully slow, I suppose is that an analysis you yeah, I think it's painfully slow So there there are the government is looking at things like the the building regulations and the regime around that and Flammable cladding there is a program to remove flammable cladding or sorry ACM cladding There's different types of flammable cladding Again painfully slow. We've got from the fire service. What is called an interim policy Of how do you deal with these high very high-risk buildings now knowing that Grenfell has happened? But it's an interim policy that's now been placed for two and a half years. That's not really an interim policy Yeah, so in our view in terms of the fire and rescue service nothing substantial Happening on on any great scale. I mean your members. I mean your members must be I mean because no one wants to be in it And especially in an emergency service where they feel like they're going into an environment which is unsafe and where they're unprepared I mean your members must be you know Getting really frustrated with the situation I think they yeah, I think there's different smooths. I think London members are Angry, but some just had enough of Grenfell You know they feel that they Some film people most painful night of their lives and probably don't want to talk about outside of London a huge Interest in some of these themes about what's what the different standards If Grenfell had happened outside of London the disaster would have been far far worse because the London fire Fibergate is one of the best resourced fiber gates in the country And was able to get large numbers of people there very quickly if that happened anywhere else They simply would not have had the personnel to deal with it in on the same scale So Pete our members are imagine what would have happened if this had happened here Again a frustration. I think there's a big Concerned cynicism about politicians generally among a lot of our members and then not convinced actually anything serious is going to change I only want to come in. Yeah, you said it was more of a national service previously When when did that sort of transition take place? the big change was in There was a dispute between ourselves and our employers 2002-2003 under the new Labour government and I suppose my take on it would be that was used as an opportunity to make Fundamental changes to fine rescue policy and legislation so I mentioned The act that created in reality the modern fire and rescue fire brigades as it was called fire service was the 1947 act set up under the post-war Labour government in a way part of the post-war consensus and so on That was in place from 1947 until 2004 in 2004 whole series of new Legislation in the different parts of the UK the fire and rescue services act 2004 in England Wales Scotland northern Ireland But all those bodies So we had an inspectorate that was scrapped at the same time the central fire brigade's advisory council scrapped at the same time National appointment and promotion regulations scrapped at the same time national standards of fire cover scrapped at the same time All these national standards went at a stroke in neither 2003 2004 and a shift to a very localised system So they now that each fire service sets its own standards and then measures their the effectiveness of their own standards What was the argument for that? I mean that seems just utterly crazy the arguments and this I think again this lies behind some of the debates around Grenfell is There has been in the UK and in many of the advanced economies Downward trend in fires. So, you know, you think the way we heat our homes smoking Not using chip pans all those things have had an impact also the work of the fire service in preventative Activities has had an impact. So there is it has been a downward trend in the past Three or four years that has plateaued and actually we've seen some increase But then from central government, there was an endless mantra of Because the number of fires has declined fire itself is therefore a declining risk And therefore you should reduce the number of firefighters and fire stations My answer to that on a very simple basis is if you used to have a hundred fires in a community And you now only have 80 that's great But it doesn't to us mean that the people who have the 80 fires should have a lower standard of service But that is the logic is a very supply and demand Lead argument that has driven these changes and I have to say again where we part company with chief officers They have gone along with this for 16 18 years They've helped to dismantle the structures that in our view Maintain standards and who who the sort of chief engineers of that policy? Obviously that's during the sort of Later Blair years. Are there any politicians? I mean not not to sort of Lambast them but just to sort of put some meat on the bone in terms of where this was coming from politically well, uh This emerged from fire ministers at the time Nick Rainsford being one in 2002 who started some of this debate they then commissioned a So-called independent review of the fire rescue service under George Bain It was a professor of industrial relations and much of what happened to the fire service emerged from that review of the fire service The fire rescue services act was based on Bain's review of the The service and uh, they they criticized the fire services have been slow to change I think big criticism of the union very highly unionized They think that we have slowed down change and so on so a big part of that agenda was it was against the fire brigade union So they fragmented it basically to fragment the workforce so that they could wind it down because they thought fires were no longer a big problem So well, if you think about if you have local standards So we raise with central government and we do time and again to say the english fire minister We've got a concern about what's happening in Merseyside. His answer his or her answer. They all have been he for the past decade his answer will be There has been a local risk management plan conducted by the professional advisor. That's the chief officer It's been agreed by the fire and rescue authority. That's the local councillors It's not it's not none of my business. So if you then on top of that squeeze finances and Central funding for fire services has gone down by 31 So you've applied that financial squeeze. You have no national standards You have this local race to the bottom and that's what happened. So a new labor review like fragmented the standards From 2010 when the coalition came in the financial squeeze Built on that fragmentation to squeeze down the job. So we've lost something like it's a small part of public services We lost something like 12,000 jobs in the past nine years She got some clips. Yeah. So today I mean because this report came out last week I suppose the political implications and ramifications of it have been reverberating through the newsrooms and free party politics and today jacob bruce mog someone who's I suppose got very little in common with any of the victims of of this tragedy was speaking on lbc And commenting on it said something quite controversial. So we're going to go to that clip right now The the tragedy came about because of the cladding leading to the fire racing up the building And then was compounded by the state put policy and It seems to me that that is the tragedy of it that the more ones read over the weekend about the report and about the chances of people surviving If you just ignore what you're told and leave you are so much safer and I I think if either of us were in a fire Whatever the fire brigade said we would leave the burning building. It just seems the common sense thing to do And it is such a tragedy that that didn't happen, but I don't think it's anything to do with I think rightly caused outrage because people interpret it as jacob bruce mog saying that him and I think it was nick ferrari Wasn't it both had enough common sense that they would have ignored the fire brigade and not followed the state put Advice jacob bruce mog afterwards did try and give a clarification. So I should read his His statement So he says what I meant to say is that I would have also listened to the fire brigade's advice to stay and wait at the time However, with what we know now and with hindsight, I wouldn't and don't think anyone else would I would hate to upset the people of grenfell if I was unclear in my comments So I suppose we'll leave it up to the audience to decide Which interpretation you take the one that was most obvious when he said it or or how he rolled back But this afternoon Andrew bridge and another Tory MP Intervened into this debate and I mean there's there's no two ways about this There's only one way you can interpret what he said. We are going to go to this Andrew bridge and clip Which was on radio four on the p.m. Show. Can we play that now? Do you think he meant to say That he thought he would not have stayed put that's what he meant to say That's what he meant to say in a way that is exactly what people object to which is he's in effect saying I wouldn't have died because I would have been cleverer than the people who took the fire brigade's advice But we want very clever people running the country don't we Evan? That's a byproduct of what jacob is and that's why he's in a in a position of So, I mean that is I mean infuriatingly disgusting So it says most people who would probably defer to the advice of an authority figure But jacob is a leader who would have made a better decision He's doubling down on what jacob reese mog said and I suppose the most disgusting Interpretation of it really and I think there are you know, there are a few things that are sickening about this comment Firstly, he sees the victims of the Grenfell disaster mostly working class black and brown people as an anonymous blob of idiots This is the Tory MP That sees the residents as a different kind of person to himself and jacob reese mog Though his government responsible for the 72 deaths The deaths of 72 people at Grenfell I bet neither bridgen nor reese mog have ever bothered to learn anything about the victims of that tragedy not 24 year old Muhammad al-harj Ali a civil engineering student who fled Syria to escape civil war not 24 year old kadeja sigh A successful artist and photographer whose work had been displayed at the venice biennale Not the countless mothers fathers and daughters and sons who've contributed more to their communities than the likes of jacob reese mog Whatever and could ever if they even bothered to try Secondly, it's this this dismissiveness and condescending attitude which precisely killed the residents of Grenfell So we know that far from being passive victims of a tragedy beyond their comprehension The residents of Grenfell knew full well the risks the refurbishment of their building Posed the residents of Grenfell had for two years complained about cost-cutting practices employed by their landlords They had warned of an oncoming catastrophe. They were dismissed as fantasists and they were ignored Indeed and with tragic prescience six months before the fire Edward Defarn a 55 year old social worker and resident of the tower wrote that and I quote It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell action group firmly believed that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude And incompetence of our landlord landlord Defarn was correct But the residents of social housing across Britain are still being dismissed and are still being ignored I don't know what you think felt about those Both of those interviews when you heard them today the first one shocking enough I think the second one from bridge and just confirming our fears I think what we've probably got is a little insight into what some of these people really think about ordinary people That they let the mask slip somewhat and and nothing that's enlightening First of all, yeah, we're very clear looking down on ordinary people looking down on working class people I think you're very right to highlight The real lives of the real people who lived in Grenfell tower that I think there's been sections of the media who've attempted to portray it as Just this massive Illegal immigrants and so on and actually they were real people with real lives real jobs careers families and so on And we have to try and bring that story out but looking down on those people in those situations and secondly, I think for re smoke This attitude towards people giving safety advice I mean, whatever people think there is a debate around stay put But the idea that people should simply ignore or if you're as educated as jacob re re smoke You can simply ignore professional advice from agencies whether that's local government or the fire service or whoever I think again in re smoke's case a complete blindness to the political elements of this actually that people Ministers of his own party knew about the risks Ministers of his own party secretaries of state of his own party had been warned About previous fires, which should have led to change in advance of Grenfell Aaron Yeah, I think I think it's it's fair to say that jacob re smoke has probably never been to the top of a Multi-story tower block and I believe there was only one sort of fire escape. There's one stairwell So if you're in the sort of top 10 15 stories the fire spread remarkably quickly as we all know there's a matter of sort of That's a matter of public record And people did die on the stairwell people died of smoke inhalation, etc Trying to do precisely what jacob re smoke sort of Attacently advising and saying he would have done himself I just think it just speaks his complete detachment from reality This is somebody who who can't go anywhere without taking the nanny of his five or six or how many children he's got with him So the idea that he'd be this sort of You know This highly responsive guy taking the initiative confounding all the informed advice and sort of professional Information. I mean, I just just fantasy he but he is a fantasist It will close this section with storms ease comment Oi jacob re smoke. You need to resign. You're an actual piece of shit. I beg everyone watch this mp jacob re smoke in a nutshell saying Grenfell victims should have had the common sense to escape I can't believe the cheek fucking hell. These politicians are actual Aliens hard to disagree with any of that Let's move on to a lighter topic the increasingly ridiculous dishonesty of the lib Dems for which they have been increasingly been publicly called out We're going to start this section with a clip from sunday. This is joe swinson's appearance on sky's sophie ridge Where she has challenged on the official use of a pretty misleading bar chart This is um northeast somerset the liberal democrats in northeast somerset liberal democrat campaign literature a Results of a survey done in the constituency of jacob re smoke You would think this was a two-horse race, weren't you between the conservatives on 38% and the lib Dems on 32% Until you look at the very very tiny small print at the bottom Which says the question was imagine that the result in your constituency was expected to be very close between the conservative and liberal democrat Candidates and none of the other parties were competitive in this scenario. Which party would you vote for and I just want to show The last result from this constituency at the last election Which hopefully we should be able to bring up now Which shows that actually the conservatives run 53% and labor on 34% the lib Dems on 8.3 I mean, this is entirely misleading, isn't it? I think politics. Well, look politics has changed significantly Since the 2017 election. No, it has. No, it has it has look in may the last the last national elections That we had in this country the liberal democrats beat both the conservative party and the labor party That is the first time that's happened for a hundred years something very different Why don't you just show the national side? I mean that is that is it was a specific poll in that particular seat and we've labeled what the question was Clearly and and you know and in the local elections. I mean in that constituency jacobry smorg now has a liberal democrat councillor, right? So the liberal democrats have been making progress and winning in that area and part of the reason for that Is that the people who voted labor in 2017? Because they thought that labor would stand up to remain in the eu have been bitterly disappointed And they know that now it's the liberal democrats who are the place to vote for if you want to stop Brexit How can you criticize? Some of the stuff that was said in the eu election campaign when you are pumping out things that are misleading as well I mean, this is like the 350 million pounds on the side of a bus. I mean, we've we've said exactly what the question is You know, it's labeled on there what the question is that it that it relates to so so anybody that's interested in looking at it Can read what that question is. You know if you talk about that figure on the side of a bus That's something which you know, just for a new resemblance whatsoever to reality and you know, it wasn't calculated in a way that made sense so this has been watched We'll turn that echo off. There's been watched over. I think 1.5 million times on twitter So hopefully that bar chart would have backfired The controversy doesn't end there. So this is a story from the guardian today I'll quote the liberal democrats have been accused. This is a separate separate story separate incident The liberal democrats have been accused of misleading voters after a number of candidates published leaflets featuring data from an obscure company That is not a member of the british polling council to suggest They are ahead of other parties in various constituencies the election material citing data from flavorable or flavable Has been criticized for using national polls and localizing them to project the voting intention for certain constituencies Lib Dem candidates have used flavorable projections in their leaflets in york outer escher and walton The islington north seat of the labor leader Jeremy Corbyn putney enfield south gate woking oxford east and west minster and city Where chucka umana is running? So this poll became controversial or One one infamy went earlier in the year the lib Dems used it to predict that Jeremy Corbyn would lose his islington north seat in an Upcoming general election even though in 2017 he had one with 73 percent of the votes Aaron this has all got a little bit ridiculous, hasn't it? Yeah, what's interesting is joe swinton i think would probably start a fight in a telephone box You know, she just always comes out fighting Um, and so there she's completely found out. It's obviously ridiculous. She could go look. This is just a local party That's politics But actually we are really competitive in every seat and she could have made the point about reese mog et cetera And had a bit of nuance. She's incapable of doing that She's actually quite a bullish Emotionally politically unintelligent politician. I think that's just my opinion and that's really born out in that clip But what's sort of I suppose a bigger deal than just joe swinton being a slightly odd Political leader is the fact that the lib Dems right now are the biggest liars and british politics You know, they are lying non-stop every day. She says that Jeremy Corbyn is a brexit here You know, you can't tell the difference between labor and the the tour is on brexit. You have these ridiculous polls coming out every day Uh, you have claims that Jeremy Corbyn was, you know, uh, he secretly voted to leave in 2016 Uh, the shameless mill is the man behind the throne That in some of them are just absolutely, you know, fantastical some of the conspiracy theories we've heard over the last few years Some even concerning of our media and I almost look at joe swinton is like the personification Of quote-unquote centrist politics just increasingly a bit like jacobry small detaching itself from reality You know, nobody looks at that video and goes this is a normal competent person. This is a professional, you know, it just seems kind of frenzied And so I guess it's something we have to ask people in the establishment media people who view themselves as moderates How do you feel about getting in behind a politician? who Lies so much is so comfortable. She's really comfortable in that clip right defending that That would make, you know, donald trump blush I think that level of of kind of lying and inaccuracy And that's really worrying. I've honestly at the time I tweeted about it. I said, this is kind of, you know, it's astonishing I've never seen a british politician that happy to lie and mislead Um And cover up what was clearly, you know, unforgivable I mean, I suppose the worry is In a way, it looks like it's backfiring for them So people who use twitter or people who've seen that video on facebook will think like the lib You know, the lib dems they seem a bit off. I'm not going to vote for them But the reason it could be worrying is these flyers are going through people's letters boxes And they're going through people's letter boxes in labor torii marginals with a completely fake bar chart That's telling people that if you want to get out your torii mp, you have to vote lib dem there's also You know sites like the best for britain tactical voting website, which is telling you to vote lib dem Even when there's an incumbent remain supporting mp They have a huge email list. So whilst we're seeing this, you know on social media where it gets a lot of pushback and a lot of kickback There'll be many people who are consuming As you say these lies fundamentally who might well Input that faulty information into their voting decisions. Yeah I think well, we're in an election Now and it's a time when people tell lots of lies unfortunately I think people need to recall what their record was. They were in government and I saw them at the interview she gave on TV the other day asked about her voting record as A member of the coalition and I think certainly for our members They're the people who helped impose a pay freeze on us. They're the people who helped Attack the welfare state. They're people who attacked our pensions people need to remember remember the real record of the liberal democrats It's all very well what anyone's saying going into an election. What did they actually do on the ground? Can I also say one more thing? That was this amazing story Probably the only thing worth reading in the recent sort of david camera and autobiography. Did you see this? It was I haven't read the book. It was niel. I'll be you were talking about it on talk radio They were pushing it down your neck because it's all one big group Yeah, we had to talk about it after having read the little press release and they wanted us to pretend It was interesting and we didn't play ball but yeah Well, um, it was covered in the london review of books david runsman wrote something on it And there's this amazing quote where david camera and talks about george osborne and nick clegg and him or being in 10 Downing street talking about you know the tuition fees vote and george osborne says to nick clegg I don't want you to vote for this This is going to destroy you because george osborne wanted the coalition to survive He said this could actually break the coalition don't do this And david camera and says look I disagree I think this policy is the right one if I didn't I wouldn't be backing it myself And I think you know, I'd hope you'd agree nick clegg disagrees. You mean not david camera. No, he's you know I disagree with george osborne His take on this that you shouldn't vote. Okay, right. I think it's the right policy And therefore I'm not going to say I'm not going to you know recommend you vote against the policy I think is the right one and then nick clegg said no, you're right This is the right policy the lib dem policy was the wrong one. This is better. I'm going to vote with it So even george osborne, you know, they had this idea that the lib dems were sort of moderating the excesses of the Tories It's completely untrue. It's completely untrue. It's completely unfounded You know, the the reflex was just to defer to power to authority to the status quo to the establishment That was their reflex and I you know, if there is a coalition that comes out of this general election Between those two parties again the exact same thing will happen Well, I don't know if you mentioned it earlier But so joe swinson today was asked if she could put jeremy corbin in downing street And she said no because I wouldn't trust him with the nuclear button Yeah, because you know, she's she's she's challenging She's channeling the the people in the in the question time audience in 2017 who were just desperate for nuclear war And that's the main thing they care about when electing even though she's a prime minister She's apparently been you know, she she was for unilateral disarmament until quite recently apparently The quote I saw was she was for downgrading tried it not necessarily getting I think a few years back anyway But you know, what's interesting is she's in a smp target seat so that that really could come back to haunter Let's we'll go to your questions afterwards. We're going to finish on a final story Which as I've already said is going to be one of the dominant themes of this election Which is the Murdoch press or other right-wing papers amplified by the mainstream media often including the bbc I imagine I'm splashing with predictions of how much the labor manifesto will cost the nation So I'm going to read a quote from the times the time splashed with this this morning And these are the relevant paragraphs So research by the center for policy studies a center-right think tank has found that reducing the hours of public sector employees Including doctors nurses teachers firefighters And police officers would impose a significant extra burden on the treasury because the workforce would have to expand At the very least this shift to a 32-hour working week would mean a 17 billion hit to the public sector Even making the most optimistic assumptions the study says it could at worst mean a possible 45 Billion pound hit to the public sector assuming a fall from 42.5 hours to 32 hours and no increase in productivity The cbi has said the plan could push many businesses into loss Aaron what do you make of this? Well, the fact the cbi commenting at the end. I mean tells you everything you need to know This is the organization that said vote for the Tories in 2015 They then get the you know The shit sandwich there's no other word to describe it of Of brexit And they still haven't learned, you know right now there is a battle in this country What kind of economy want to build and they still haven't learned they think they can have it exactly the way it was before 2008 They think they can you know Repeat austerity. There'll be no political overhead They think that people aren't smart enough to kind of formulate an alternative And as you you saw in the article the assumption is there'll be no increase in productivity Great piece out recently looking at microsoft in japan. It's talked about in the garden I think it was yesterday And actually they saw a 40 percent increase in productivity So one argument is actually the increase in productivity outweighs The hours lost and even if it's not completely outweighing it, which is what happened in microsoft japan There's still a major increase in productivity So then the question becomes well, why are people working less and this isn't overnight people are going to have a Days less work because obviously people need to make ends meet the proposal is over a longer period of time We moved to a 32 hour week many people in full-time work because of Zero hours contracts or shift work, etc. Actually can do a 35 hour week and that's called a full-time job So 32 hours isn't that different necessarily Rather than saying what would assure to working week solve we should say what wouldn't it solve? You know it would correlate or it has correlated with lower levels of anxiety stress depression Longer life expectancy You know closer familial ties better feelings of regards, you know happiness and contentment I think 92 percent of works in microsoft japan said they felt better They were happier after moving to a four-day week And so, you know, it's it's definitely something to look at But first and foremost that article was complete nonsense and bullshit quite frankly Because it was presuming that there'll be no net increase in productivity in every single case study we can draw on when it comes to Working less suggests otherwise. What are the how how do the hours work of? Firefighters they must have kind of odd shifts, right? Yeah, we still work a 42 hour week actually So really yeah 42 hour week and in fact we've one thing a result of austerity is we have Duty systems because we work shifts And we have duty systems coming in that we fought against 100 years ago more or less So we've we've got some duty systems where people are effectively working 96 hours a week and what does the duty system mean? It's when you're at home, but you're on call. No, no these are shifts Not been not being on call. This is shifting a fire station Some some systems coming in where you get rid of half the workforce The rest of the other half of the workforce have to cover the shortages of the The half that have gone so a lot in a drive to increase hours I suppose I would say on this story is expect a lot more of it because we're going to get this Throughout this campaign scaremongering about first of all the billionaires are going to leave fair play. Goodbye um, but we're going to get a lot more scarce and any Government any party that stands anywhere in the world that offers change is going to face that sort of onslaughts And I think people labour supporters just have to be ready for it. I suppose historically they've always said this They've always said any reduction in the working week will bring the economy crashing down They said that abolishing slavery would bring the economy crash crashing down And that's people in power who don't want that Alteration in the balance of power in the workplace. And I think working people want we we we should be Enjoying more leisure time and and technology should allow that That's the world we should be trying to build Is that demand for shorter working hours or a better work life balance been incorporated into You know the FB that demands the FBU may because it it's the official policy of I should look this up before we went live, but it's the official policy of some trade unions Isn't it to go towards a four-day week? We haven't well because of we work shifts how you would work that out Yeah, so yeah, we have a policy of Shortening the working week as most unions do to to some degree or another. I think the concern for us is how would that Actually play out in the fire service because we don't want to do with reductions in fire cover because what some fire services are doing It's saying I tell you what we'll just cancel your fire cover at night Because there are fewer fires at night Therefore so you can have a short working week, but we'll just we still have fewer of you because we just won't provide the cover At night and there's a difficult balance on some of those issues for us Are there parts of the country where there's no cover if your house goes on fire in the night? Well, there will be some sort of cover. It's just you might just might be quite far away 20 minutes Half an hour for it to get there I mean, what's interesting is that one one workplace one industry where you already have a four-day week is think tanks You know, I've worked at a few I've interned a few and a lot of people work from home on fridays So it's kind of a bit It's a bit hypocritical Yeah, I mean in a way. I mean and also the labor party won't but Calling it a four-day week actually makes it sound more radical than it is because what the labor party are talking about is reducing Working hours to 32 hours and in France as you say they already have a 35 hour week And that doesn't mean a four-day week that just means a seven hour day, which you know sounds far more Well, I I I mean I tend to work a four-day week I think 20 years in fact is for longer hours and more and more people doing unpaid overtime Which is a scandal itself, you know in in the public sector as well teachers well known for doing large amounts of effectively unpaid overtime working well beyond their contracted hours and and At some point we have to just put a stop to this and I think the drive for a short to working week is one way in which we can do that Can I just also say what Matt said about, you know, this is just an age-old story is entirely You know, we have to keep sight of that They said the same thing about a 12 hour day and an hour day a weekend in slavery everything so You know they seem to turn out okay All right, question time type your questions into the comments and whilst you are doing that I'm going to remind you again That Tiskey sour and Navarro media is only possible because of your kind support So if you are already a subscriber, thank you very much. You are what makes this possible If not, please go to support dot navarromedia.com and donate the equivalent of one hour's wage a month So we can keep ramping up the regularity of these shows and navarro media's overall production The point at which we can pay ourselves for a full-time week for four days I think is a way off, but it's an ambition that we all hold Uh, as ever like this video, it means it appears in more people's news feeds share it on facebook share it on twitter Um question This is an interesting one James Gradwell could a Tory Lib Dem coalition occur with both Johnson and Swinson losing their seats? I'll go to you Aaron Yes Although we don't maybe make there's this rumor of um, who's the chap? Ipsos Moray guy nobody else has kind of confirmed it whoever is the director of Ipsos Moray did a Well shared tweet today, which said that breaking news Boris Johnson is going to stand down in Uxbridge and move to melton Mobri, I mean it's almost too good to be true. I thought it was Joe. I thought it was just a wind-up The home of porkies Pork pies. So he's been talking about pork pies a lot right in the last couple of months But everyone's denied it other than the guy who was the director of Ipsos Moray So we're not really sure but I mean in theory it could happen Have you looked at the polling for Jo Swinson's seat? Is she at risk from the smp? It's the target seat for them. I don't know It's target seat. I mean clearly both are possibilities, but You've got to think if they if they're both out then you would hope that the rest of the election's in a better place than Giving us a a Tory Lib Dem coalition. That's true. I mean if both of those have lost You're looking at a labour smp government on you or a potentially a labour majority, but probably more likely a labour minority government with I always call it supply and demand confidence and supply from the smp Uh, this is a good question. James Newman. Why isn't sweden used enough by labour supporters as an example of how our country can move forward, this is a good question actually that related to I was on talk radio this morning and As well as this four-day week story Something that's being pushed out a lot is that both parties in fact, so this isn't even an attack on labour necessarily Both parties are making spending pledges Which will take the proportion of government spending to gdp back to the levels they were in the 1970s and the way this is phrased is very much a You know, this is a nostalgic policy That's going to take us to the days of you know the winter of discontent, etc And it's it's it's very much a case of looking backwards. No one says that The level of public spending to gdp could raise to still slightly less than sweden, but a bit more Than the anglophone countries. I mean, what do you think about using scandinavian countries as as the ideal which we're aiming for? Well, I'd rather go a lot further than scandinavian countries personally, but I think the interesting thing I think we've got to create our own our own new society here the The interesting point about the spending plans is we've had I mean it's quite shocking really, isn't it? We've had nine years now of First of all the coalition and then the Tory government telling us that labor overspent that's actually nothing to do with the banks that's what that was the cause of the of the Why the economy's in a mess and we need to tighten our belts And then suddenly all those rules are thrown out completely By the new Tory leadership and willing to throw anything and promise anything to win this election I mean, it's quite shocking and and actually The mainstream media not holding to holding them to account on that point at all They haven't offered to give it because I know they've it all their giveaways are based on pollings So Dominic Cummings has looked at what is popular. What do the country like the country like doctors nurses Education and they like police So what we're going to do is we're going to promise to get brexit done Which is the sort of divisive policy But which we feel like there is a winning coalition for or a potential winning coalition for and then we're going to throw A few million pound here a few billion pound there at the sort of Free bits of society which we think people are most anxious about and most supportive of They haven't have they Mentioned any giveaways that the fire service are going to get no, I think they particularly dislike us for various reasons Oh, what are those because you're especially because you're highly unionized or I don't know Yeah, I suspect that's a factor in it that they We're they see us a bit of a thorn in their side. We don't give in and but no no great We're you know We're a small part of the public sector. It's not on the scale of education health and social care And we understand that but it's not on their radar. So that's quite shocking in the aftermath of Grenfell that there's nothing Seriously being said about fire policy Sweden Aaron. Yeah, Sweden, but you said the 1970s I mean, you know people talk and by the way the you know the the three-day week was brought in by Tory government The thing about the 1970s rising wages rising home ownership virtually zero consumer debt Rising productivity in the economy People were happy, you know all the all the sort of the metrics. I mean it's self-reported metrics, but happiness were better So what was so bad? You know, what was so traumatic about this period where you know, the average house was about two point times the average wage You know today in some parts of london. It's you know, 15 times the average wage I'm really sort of eager to know what what was so bad Of course people strike, you know, they people want to this one industrial action here or you know But you know in the grand scheme of things if you can't afford to buy a home If you're in 50 60 grand's worth of debt for for having the temerity to take out a degree You know, I'm pretty sure our society's inferior to that one um Yeah, I think that's pretty much inarchable. This is a good question. Marxist effort posting asks Is there a shortage of firefighters in britain? I'm just out of school and trying to pick a career and I'm now thinking about becoming a firefighter Uh, there is um There is a shortage of what we have called retained firefighters. I there in rural communities small towns and so on They're part-time They're the people who are alerted from home There is a very regular problem of recruiting them because of the levels of pay the levels of earnings and the disruption to you Every day life have been on call and going out to fires on a friday night and so on among whole-time firefighters Uh, there is an increasing problem, but not seriously currently a recruitment problem But we have people now It was always a career for life We now have people leaving to get better paid jobs, which most of my time in the fire service people wouldn't have done Um, but with 10 years of a pay freeze that's starting to impact on people because they're they're saying we need to pay the bills So we've people have gone off and become train drivers and so on. Um, so yeah, but it's despite the Complaints and criticisms that we might make it. I would say is still a great job And I would encourage people to to think about it and join. What's the pension age? What's on what age do? Another setback under the uh college So when I the fire service I joined the pension age was 55 with an ability to Uh retire from 50 And clearly there are it's a physically demanding job and there are fitness standards and so on Fitness tends to decline according to us not according to the government as you get older Then it was raised for new starters to 60 And then the coalition as part of their general attack on public sector pensions brought in Changed it so that 60 became the new age for everyone apart from some protected Of our members. We just won a very significant court case against them on that Uh, which has got implications for all public sector pension schemes. Uh, so very pleased with that So a whole number that will that's going to back to employment tribunal in december And I say we've inflicted a defeat on the uk government on that And I thought our point is the government's own figures show that as people get into their mid and late 50s Their fitness standards are going to go below the fire service fitness levels and we've said well, okay What are you going to do that you can't redeploy them? You're saying they can't have a pension They're in a position of potentially being dismissed through no fault of their own and having no job and no pension Which we know was a point they couldn't answer but they plowed ahead with those attacks So our our view is we they took about occupational pension schemes Well, it should be a pension scheme fit for the occupation of our members are actually So ideally what age do you think that well, there was 55 and in fact in the one part of the uk where we Won a victory on that point is northern ireland. It's the only public sector scheme post 2015 That's got a pension age of 55. We won that in northern ireland It's good for labour to sort of if they rolled that back a labour government It's going to create a couple of thousand jobs, I guess. Yeah Healthy young people. This is a question that's sort of directed to your you know a different part of your union activity So it's from kai kizwani have too much of the corps been supporting left focused on party democracy and neglected engagement within trade unions Yeah, I think uh, well, I think the battle for party democracy is important and you know, if you take open selection mandatory reselections It was called at my union's conference that passed unanimously So which is why when at last year's conference, I think we were the only union stood up and defended open selection So for us democracy is important inside our own organization So we want the labour party to be democratic as well But I do think that there is an issue about engaging, you know There's a lot of dialogue and we welcome it with the union tops and so on but actually You've got of a dialogue with ordinary trade union members on the ground. So I think there is an issue for Corbynism if you like of you know, I think it's too southern based. It's too london based And it needs to engage a lot more with ordinary Working people how Corbynite are firefighters It's it's me. I'll tell you a story about it's not gonna be a blanket Grenfell, you know, it's it's mixed. We have a lot of Corbyn supporting trade union activists We we also have we get criticized from some of our members about our support for Corbyn I was at Grenfell when it was on the day. Remember the day that Theresa May arrived And it was the and it was the same day that Corbyn came to video that the two were so starkly different You had Theresa May and her entourage in this very wooden attendance Not engaging with anyone being It's got to drown by the commission of the London fire brigade Looking at the fire moving on and then Corbyn turned up and the atmosphere was Completely different and firefighters were saying can I have a selfie with mr. Corbyn and can I have mr. Corbyn's Sync autograph and so on. So it's very different. So that's not necessarily a political I don't know what their political assessment will be just a different approach to engaging with people Which I think everyone noticed from that election campaign and Hopefully we'll see that in this one as well. I just want to go back briefly to that point of open selection So you said you were one of the few unions that backed that last year I know that a lot of our audience are you know, really strong supporters of open selection me and Aaron both are And and one of the challenges that's often brought up is how do you get the other unions on side? I don't know if there was It was there a conversation between you and the other unions where you were sort of arguing for open selections And you lost that argument or What happened there? Is there a possibility of in the near future secrets? Is there is there in the possible? Well, is there a possibility in the near future of getting the other bigger unions on side for open selection? Do you think I suppose well There one question that came up at last year's conference was what was the view of the labour leadership? And that was that was raised in the conference and so on for me We didn't approach it that way at all. I'm interested in what Jeremy Corbyn's view is But for me, I took my mandate from what my unions conference had said my unions conference had decided That's that's who I'm accountable to that that was our policy position And that's therefore regardless what any other deals other people might do. That's what we took to the conference I think there just needs to be an open debate about I have to say if if we'd got that through now We would not have faced some of the problems We've had in the recent selections because actually it should be just normal practice that MPs go through a selection process at each election And it just becomes part of the course not the norm And actually we would have I say we would have had candidates in place I think we would have had more genuine Candidates would have had more left candidates by now As we go into this election. Well, this is an interesting one as well. Rory JL 2014 would you describe the FBU as one of the most left-wing trade unions? And if so, why do you think that is? We have always bizarrely In a way, we've always been on the left the union Was created by socialist activists. It's it's always had a socialist trend within it. Although For various reasons, lots of our members might not be expected to have that hold those views because we have a lot of ex-services people in the fire service But we've always had this socialist tradition. We've always tried to look The phrase that's used in the union look beyond the doors of the fire station. Look at the wider world And you know, we were one of the first the first union affiliates of the anti-apartheid Movement, for example, first union to raise the question of Palestine at the TUC So we've got lots of those traditions What we have to do is not get out of touch with our members and work out how do you raise issues like that? With people who actually want to pay rise or want their pension protected Um, let's I just want to pick one last Question to direct to both of you. Oh, let's do this one. Ian Guffrey. Should we be concerned about the Tory lead in the polls? I'll go to you first, Aaron No No, we shouldn't um The very first well actually there was a poll I think slightly before the last election Put the Tories on 48 put Labour on 24 The first internal polling for the Tories in 2017 gave them 200 seat majority Uh, so there's going to be lots of movement. You're going to see the Lib Dems I think ebb down the question is how far feeds into what we were saying about those fake leaflets You know the impact of that is you know, we're going to find out I think in In December they're going to go down. I think the Brexit parties vote will ebb down The question is then you know and a bit bit of those will go to each party Primarily the Lib Dems will go to Labour primarily the Brexit party will go to the Tories the question is then Twofold to what extent can you expand the electorate? Which is you know registering new people to vote young people bend communities low-income households Which appears to be happening so far. We've still got a couple more weeks of that So far the signs are good And then secondly, how can Labour win over sort of wavering Tories? But the first one's really important and also just statistically a lot of these polls are weighted in such a way That turnout amongst certain demographics is is modeled to be you know lower amongst the young much Lower amongst the young much lower amongst, you know low-income people etc etc So that waiting model actually was quite faulty in 2017 It was one of the reasons why most the polls were out and all of them You gov even though I think now their models are very weak You gov were actually really good in the last election because they had huge samples They were getting 50,000 informants a week during the last general election They were doing something called predictive modeling So if you have you know 25 features about you they could basically work out within a Quite a small sort of margin of error how likely you were to vote what way That's a really effective way of working out voter preference and right now none of the polls are doing that So you know I take it with a More than a pinch of salt But what's good news is that in pretty much every poll in the last week is labor up Lib Dems and Brexit party are down That's very positive. The question is if the Tories get 40% and I think there has to be our Our basic assumption, you know, how to how to labor get 42 how to labor get a majority in that context Not easy, but it's doable Matt the final word goes to you. Should we be worried about the Tories? I would take them seriously, but I think I mean interesting I was talking to some friends in a in a in a labor party in a Tory seat And I raised this point with them and they were very dismissive of the polls and say you want to come and look on the ground at what is really going on We are very confident. We've got a fantastic campaign People are going in from all over the country to to try and unseat their Tory MP and They're they're getting real intelligence from real people on the ground and that's showing them very different pictures from what national polls So it's all to play for and Yeah, take them seriously But it's now down to the campaign and we've got to go out and try and win that campaign and I think the I went into 2017 worried And actually the campaign really blew people's socks off and I think we need to try and do that again Matt rack, thank you so much for joining us this evening. It's been a pleasure having you on the show Aaron Bustani, always a pleasure. Thank you. And thank you for watching tisky. So we will be back later in the week Definitely at least one more show this week. So keep an eye on our twitter and facebook for when that will be We will see you then. Good night