 Well, why don't we get started then, Sophie? Just welcome everybody again. Thanks to everyone from the public in attendance. Thanks to everyone from each of the institutions, the presidents, and their staffs that are in attendance. And thanks also for the committee members who are here today as well. We've been long-range planning in all of the committees. And the board itself has been doing a lot of work, a lot of meetings, a lot of important engagement discussion, and just want to recognize that. And thanks, thank you to everybody for being here today and continuing that work. It's really important, but it does not go unnoticed how much time and attention we're asking from those both on the board and from the public and the institutions as well. So one thing I want to announce right at the beginning is Sean Tester is going to be joining the long-range planning committee. I just saw a note from Chairwoman Dickinson on that. So we're really excited to have Sean join us. He has a strong hospital system background. He has strong roots in the Northeast Kingdom as well. So looking forward to having his perspective on the committee. And yeah, that will be an excellent addition. So today's agenda, we have, it's more informational, although we do have a couple of items that we want to take action on, one pretty technical and one more substantive. The technical item is approving the minutes from July 23rd. The more substantive ask is that we will be having a discussion of the Chancellor's recommendations for strategic action for the current academic year, 2000 to 2001. And it'll be a discussion, it'll, we want everyone's feedback. And then ultimately, I think what we want is everyone's recognition that the long-range planning committee supports the particular strategic actions that were selected for this year given that they're achievable, they're important and that, you know, we can get them done within the next six to eight months. So we'll be asking for that vote. And then we'll also be getting more information regarding the select committee on the future of public higher education in Vermont. We want to make sure the committee is well versed in what they are exploring and discussing, ensuring that you're aware of what their timelines are and how that matches with different timelines for both the board, the different committees of the board, the legislature, the legislative process itself, the budget process. So we will also be having a discussion about timelines to make sure we're aware of each one of those individual threads, but more importantly, how they are tied into each other and impact each other in terms of timing. Then of course, other business and we will take comments from the public, of course, as well. So with that, I would ask folks to take a look at the minutes from July 23rd and ask if there are any edits or corrections to those minutes. I'll move, we approve those, Adam. So moved by Adam. Do we have a second? Dylan seconds. Dylan, second from Dylan. Thank you, Dylan. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. And the minutes are approved. So thank you, everybody. So why don't we get right into the discussion and I'm gonna turn this portion over to Sophie who's gonna walk through the chancellor's recommendations and I'll turn it over to you, Sophie. Thank you so much. So this is, a couple of weeks ago, we presented and the board approved the VSC's strategic priorities. We've been working in consultation. We, meaning the chancellor's office primarily, me and my senior leadership team, along with the presidents, to talk about what can we start moving forward with on these strategic priorities? Cause we have to be realistic and they're all really important. We identified a lot of areas where we felt we could, we could really move the needle on some things but we can't do everything at once. So what you have in front of you is the recommendations for strategic action for us to take in this year. The goal would be, you know, if that meets with your approval, pass that on to the full board at the upcoming meeting on the 16th of November, along at that time with the president's individual strategies for how they're going to accomplish the particular item. So it may differ by institution. They will be including key performance indicators, benchmarks and timelines. So some of these things we could start this year, we won't necessarily accomplish, you know, you'll see as we go through this, some of them are big long-term things we can't do and just simply a flick of a switch and make them happen this year. So that will happen at the upcoming board meeting. But this was really a document, a sort of transition document between the very big picture on the strategic priorities, what we're recommending we focus on and then the board, the chancellor's, the, sorry, the president's focusing on the individual actions they're planning on taking. So as part of this, I did want to emphasize all the things that we are doing. We're doing in the chancellor's office from at a system level, rather than, I mean, the presidents will be doing the pieces from their individual institutions. But we do have a number of things that are already happening this year. So you already are aware of the system-wide budget that we're working on and we'll be hearing more about that in the finance and facilities committee meeting this afternoon. That's a very significant action that will really impact a lot of other areas that we're working on. We're also going to be evaluating and working on the centralized payroll and benefit system. I think everybody knows there have been challenges with the implementation of that. We've been working extraordinarily hard to try to correct them. And there are additional efficiencies that we believe can be gained from that system. And we really need to realize the full benefit of it, to benefit the colleges and provide them with what we promised and we would provide them with when we implemented that. We're also going to be looking at ways to improve and streamline our accounts payable system. Right now it's a clunky system. I don't do that many invoices, but it can be very frustrating. You get right to the very end of the form and you put in something incorrect. You have to do the whole thing all over again. There are challenges for folks that have to process a lot of invoices. So that's a business operation. We're going to be looking to see what we can do to help with that. We're also going to be looking into adopting a system-wide purchasing and procurement process. We're also going to be conducting an analysis of all the software purchases that the system has. One of the big issues that often comes up is the size of the Chancellor's budget. I think one thing people don't realize often is that a significant portion of that is taken up with software costs, which obviously don't belong to the Chancellor's office. They belong to the colleges. We may want to explore, is there a better way to account for that and have those costs transferred to the college's budgets? But that's a conversation for us to have. But in order to really look at RIT costs, we're going to be going through the different packages we have. Colleague, Canvas, Aviso, there's a whole host of smaller ones that we all use to see are we using them in the most efficient way? Are we getting full use out of them? Are we no longer using them? Are they things that we could stop using? IT has been a growing cost, not just for us obviously, but something that we should take a look at to see if there's a way to be more efficient and assess the value of those items. We'll also be launching an online website. This is connected to the fourth charge that the Board gave to the Chancellor and the Presidents coming out of the VSCS Forward Task Force. Yasmeen didn't really have an opportunity to touch base on this in the previous meeting for EPSIL. Maybe when we get through this, it might be worth having Yasmeen just say a few words on that, but looking to make it easier for students to access courses across the system. Again, it ties in with the conversation that we've just had from EPSIL. We're also going to be working with primarily Castleton and Northern Vermont University on financial aid optimization. There certainly has been a lot of competition in the past, and we can do a better job on that. That's something we'll be looking at. And also, as was just touched on in the previous meeting, we're looking at expanding the Heartless Library model for web-based services to Castleton and to Northern Vermont University to serve as the virtual library core for the entire system. So those are things at the system level that we will be working on. And then going back to the strategic priorities that were discussed two weeks ago, the first one was affordability in reducing the total cost of attendance for students and families. So the specific items under that that we're going to be looking to commit to for this academic year, reducing the cost of textbooks and ancillary materials for students. So for example, that could be open educational resources but ways to help bring down costs. I know it's been a long time since I was in college, but I've heard stories of $600 science textbooks and things. It's a significant cost that I think sometimes we don't always, when we're far removed from it, appreciate what a challenge that can be for students. Improving the on-time graduation rate, obviously that's not something we can do very swiftly, but there are strategies that can be implemented to start moving the needle on that. And increasing average class size at residential campuses. Again, that was something that was sort of touched on in the previous meeting. We do have some, just given the nature of the programs and enrollment in programs, we are running a lot of courses with very small numbers of students in them. And some of the select committee materials that are available on the Joint Fiscal Office website are, you know, we'll point that out, like how very small some of our classes are. The second strategic priority was accessibility. And so we've picked two of the accessibility items that were identified in the strategic priorities. The first one is increased access to VSCS programs, regardless of race, ethnicity, age, educational attainment of parents, prior educational experience, family status, or place of residence. And the commitment on this one is that we will commit to expanding access to the system programs for traditional and non-traditional students, offering flexible delivery, flexible delivery modalities, such as in-person virtual hybrid and flexible scheduling, such as accelerated programs, evenings and weekends, to try to really broaden the students' ability to participate in the programs that we have. The other accessibility priority that we wanted to focus on was making sure that students receive the academic advising and other supports necessary to succeed in their VSCS programs, as measured by their retention, persistence and graduation. Again, that's not something you can address immediately, but we can certainly start doing things. We won't necessarily accomplish that in six to eight months, but there are ways that we can commit to improving the support services that are available to our students through expanded training on and use of Canvas, the learning management system that we have, and a visa, the advising software across the system, as well as improved career counseling and mentorship of at-risk students. But I think there are strategies there that can be done to help on that issue. The fourth one was under the quality, strategic priority, and the focus for this year would be on the ability of VSCS graduates to meet externally recognized measures of achievement, such as licensure exam success rates and their preparation to compete in the global workforce. So one of the things that we face as a challenge is we don't really know that much about what our graduates do and where they go and who employs them. Some institutions do a better job of that than others. VTC I know has done a very good job in terms of reaching out to their graduates sort of within six months of graduation and finding out what they're doing. But really, in order to make progress on this particular measure, we really need to have more information. So we're going to commit to conducting an annual survey of recent graduates and their employers starting this year, but it wouldn't just be for one year. The goal would be to continue with that moving forward. And then the final one is the relevance priority and development of career paths that are relevant to student goals and expectations of value in a career. And the commitment on this one is that the Vermont State Colleges will expand the development of degree paths with embedded industry recognized credentials. I understand that CCV is already doing that. VTC is looking to do that. But it's really important that we start building ways for students so that they can acquire credentials and other things so if they don't complete a four-year degree, for example, they are leaving with something. So this would be part of that. So those were the specific recommendations that we were looking to forward to the full board. Again, there'll be more information at the full board meeting in terms of the actual strategies that individual colleges will be using to achieve those particular goals. So happy to answer any questions that folks may have. Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much, Sophie. I think we'll turn it over to questions in just one minute. And I think the goals and both the level of granularity, I think you've struck a good balance in terms of making them actionable and measurable. And that's always critical and important when you're talking about strategic initiatives and plans. And for almost every category, there are some really articulated goals that you want to achieve. So I just want to recognize that off the top. Any board members have questions for Sophie? Yeah, and I would just add to follow up on that, Mike. I think it is critical to have the measurement piece because it's all well and good saying we're going to do X. But it's like, when are you going to do it? How are you going to do it? How are you going to measure whether you succeeded on it or not? And I think that's really important. And again, I do want to recognize the limited bandwidth that everybody has. So we're trying to do as much as we can do, but do it in a responsible way rather than biting off more than we can chew and then not being successful on anything. Yeah, that's a very reasonable approach, Sophie. And I think getting some momentum of making even incremental change is really going to be good for the system. So having those goals that are articulated and achievable, I think achievable being the keyword this year, you know, I think that's a good balance. And I think there's an expectation from the legislature that we be doing something, you know, that it's important that we demonstrate what we're doing and can show that we're making progress and we are working on the transformation. So I think it's just vital that we be seen to be making forward progress. Mike? Yes, Karen? Sophie, I just want to applaud you and all your support folks. I think it's an exceptional effort and it's a very difficult task. So all of it taken together. And the times are especially stressful. So I know that everybody's juggling lots of balls and to see us moving forward. Under the current conditions, I have thought everybody it's good work. Well, I do want to thank, I mean, this really is not, you know, it really is a collaboration with the colleges we've been working with the presidents. We've had a lot of conversations and discussion about what we can achieve. So trying to be considerate of what they have on their plates as well. And to those, I did just indicate, I think the long-range planning committee, I see Beth's question and she's going to be, Jen is going to be posting those materials right now. So it should be available. Great, thanks Sophie and thanks, Jen. Lynn? Yeah, thank you. I just wanted to say to basically agree with Karen that these are really, this is a really good start. It's a really good document. One of the questions I had on the quality piece and I don't know exactly how that's, what the details on that are, but VSAC has been doing a survey of high school graduates a year out after they graduate. And I don't know what their methodology is or what, but they have been doing it apparently maybe every two years for years and years and years. And that might be something that we can work with them to develop that survey or either that or through the, maybe even through the Castle Den, there isn't a Castle Den polling anymore, but Richard Clark is, I think that's his name. Is the... Yeah, it is. I think that was the anticipation. Yeah, but instead of reinventing the wheel, we could maybe work together. Yeah, because I think the challenge is, in order for us to find out if we're doing a good job with employers, we kind of need to know where people have gone. So, having the data, I think, will be really important for us moving forward to really make progress on those particular goals that we have as strategic priorities. Yeah, yeah. For, like, nursing students, it would be easy because they take all the boards. But yeah, for everyone else, it would certainly be helpful. Yeah, I think through this. Go ahead, sorry. I was just going to say... Oh, sorry, go ahead, Sophie. I was just going to say if Yasmeen wanted to just add something about that, because as we didn't get to it in Epsilon, I don't know, Yasmeen, if you just wanted to add something quickly on the website piece. Oh, certainly. I mean, that work is underway. We have a vendor selected, and we're sending out a survey, I think, to students in the next day or so to get their feedback on, you know, what information do they need to, or do they most care about when they're searching for courses so that we're designing a site that meets their needs in finding out more information about what's available to them. So that's where we're at there. But I think a lot of the things that Tom and Nolan alluded to in Epsilon as well are really consistent with the activities here. So more professional development, obviously, is also important as an example. Mike, Adam here. I don't know if this is where within the agenda today we would be talking about some of the National Center for Higher Education. Their study and some of the findings that they had, assuming some of that has fed into the priorities that we're discussing right now under the Chancellor's recommendation, but just trying to understand a bigger picture of the Long Range Planning Committee and our role within some of these other findings that we've read about in our packet. Yes, I think maybe I'll just start Sophie and then I'll let Sophie expand on it because I think the role of the Long Range Planning Committee and what we're trying to serve in that role today is to make sure this group is at least aware of all of the different work processes and threads that are out there. There are quite a few and it's easy to forget about one or two when there's so much else going on. So the conversation about our future as the system has certainly been broadened out not just beyond this committee and the Board but to the legislature and to other stakeholders. So I think we will continue to play an important advisory and policy developing role as we continue to move forward on some of these transitional items. But I think there are some bigger long-term items that need to be addressed and decided by these different work streams that are out there and that's why we want to at least make sure the committee is aware of them and aware of what those timelines are. Sophie, anything to add on that? Yeah, I mean I think at this point the Board it's kind of the Long Range Planning Committee too. I mean it's because everyone really needs to be involved. You know when this committee started which was just a few years ago it wasn't originally a standing committee of the Board it was because we could see the adverse headwinds that were coming and it was confronting us and higher education and particularly in the Northeast but I think at this point given our particular situation really the whole Board needs to be engaged with this but yeah we're dealing this through the Long Range Planning Committee. We have a lot of members, trustees and members of this committee and I know we've got other trustees that are paying attention to what happens in this Long Range Planning Committee too so really it's just a question of time. I mean we couldn't do you know today we have a full day of committee meetings but if we do if we replicate this in its entirety at the Board meeting it just makes our Board meetings so long so we're trying to cover everything make sure everyone has all the information that they need. We certainly heard at the last Board meeting that there's interest from the trustees in understanding all the different processes that are going on and concerned about the role of the select committee, the role of the Board, what's happening at the legislature so we're trying to bring all those threads together at this meeting today. Yeah and thank you for doing that. It's uh it's appreciated. Other questions from the committee? Does I see Pat has her hand up? Yeah Pat, Pat Morton? Yeah I'm sorry I'm not technically part of the committee. No I was gonna ask the I was gonna ask the presidents and even those any other anyone else joining us if they have comments after so go ahead Pat please. Well first of all I just really applaud these strategic priorities and particularly maximizing the benefit of those systems we've already put in place and I think that's critically important and then just speaking to the survey because we do one annually six months out and we are able to get an 85 many times 90% return because we hound our graduates. I mean our peer services person just doesn't let them off the hook she knows down to a name who doesn't answer the survey so that's one of the reasons why we feel so confident in that data and while I am a big advocate of surveying if we really want to hang our hat on placement data we're going to have to take a far more proactive approach to that I feel then you know a simple survey where you might get 15 or whatever percent returned and then my third point really relates to you know the help desk and Sophie's point about really trying to incorporate IT into student success and things like retention and et cetera and I know Kelly Campbell is somewhere on this list of folks and I invite her to just give me you know two seconds if she's able but I mean we have to have a help desk not be a fixer it really has to be services that integrate and incorporate with our academic programs to see where IT can really be brought home to support retention and support our students in a big way I mean that's Kelly's expertise we're thrilled to have her but I just want to drive that point home also that you know we need to start getting you know RT is our business partner in support but we need to take it that next level and I don't know if you want to quickly add anything else to that Kelly. Thanks Pat and thanks everyone no I think you said it well Pat and I think as you know Sophie you're well aware we've chatted I think as we look at some of these strategic bullets and initiatives and then I was just making notes about your well outlined bullets of affordability and accessibility and quality and relevance I mean every single thing Sophie said I think IT plays a critical role and I think we've seen that through COVID but wanting to ensure as we start to think about how we position and support and resource IT that we understand the critical need and I think that we're well aware that we are not just about break fix and we're not just about providing computers and network right that we need to be strategic partners and moving a lot of these critical efforts forward and truly be shifting from operational to strategy and I think that's a priority for IT and I think we're aware of it but wanting to kind of name that in how we approach some of these objectives. Thanks Pat, thanks Sophie. Yeah and the thanks actually skipped over that one and unintentionally when I was reading through my list here so thank you for raising that back up yeah. Yeah again I mean I think part of what we're looking forward to and again we want to be realistic about how much we can handle but we don't want to have you know four separate ways of doing things if we can collaborate across the system and we have different strengths at different places so I use this example all the time but I mean Kelly who you just heard from is really you know an expert on academic technology so she's at VTC but that would be a great asset that you know hopefully we can use her knowledge and benefit from that across the system rather than it doesn't have to be someone centralized in the central office we can benefit from having expertise elsewhere in the system and that's something we need to be looking forward to. Sophie just to clarify it was number three under accessibility that you didn't highlight just for everyone's awareness. Just a list of system-wide alternatives I just skipped over it. It was after I was talking about reviewing the current software and then I went into the website and I missed the help desk that was listed there. Again we haven't really gone very far down the path but we've just started having conversations about developing a system-wide help desk because again different people have different expertise across the system and help have a more robust way of supporting people longer hours but then less stress on the individual campuses so figuring out a way to do that in a shared way rather than everyone individually having to man their own help desks. And Sophie I think it's maybe this is more of an implementation item so I'll just put it out there but on that survey piece that Pat mentioned we do say the Vermont State College System will conduct an annual survey maybe it's implicit that each institution will conduct their own survey in a unified way but I could imagine to Pat's point most people are most familiar with their institution rather than the system probably most recent graduates but each system might you know CCB might want something a little bit different than the residential colleges if they do that kind of surveying as well so maybe just something to think about in the implementation piece. That makes sense and I appreciate Pat's point too is you know nagging is always important on those kinds of things to get good quality results. Yeah exactly right it's very I mean the information and data will be great but you want to make sure that it's as complete as it can be and as solid as it can be. Any other questions or comments from the other presidents or members of the other institutions or any comments I know we have a public comment later but I'd be interested if anyone that's on the meeting has any public comment or questions on these initiatives as well. Can I say something? Feel free to speak up because I oh yeah Beth go ahead. Yes thanks I really appreciate Pat bringing up the fact that we all do send out graduate surveys in fact while I've been listening to you I have been putting the labels on the postcard that says you'll be we're asking you for your input. It's at one point the Castleton polling institute was going to take it on and actually the day we met to discuss it was the day that Castleton shut down the polling institute and so we were heartbroken because we really thought this might be a way to get better response rate the response rate has been going down down and so I really am excited to hear what you all come up with for a way to get our graduates to respond to these surveys. It's important information we have such long 20 years of these surveys so the longitudinal information is great but when you have a 13 percent response rate it doesn't mean a whole lot. Thank you. Yeah that's a great point Beth and that in that long you know that rich data set of multiple years is really valuable to see trends and where things are moving and you know what field people are going into and so what point we'll take and I'm scrolling through but if anyone has any questions please feel free to speak up as well. So Sophie just one other point I just wanted to make is that you know I think you know some of these items like under affordability you know reducing the cost of textbooks and associated materials with those that are public sourced or you know it's just like a it's like it's really you know there's a small item but it can be a really big big item for a student and I think it's things like that that are really important no-brainers that we can get working on and get implemented and make some impact so I just I wanted to call that one out specifically because I know I know that you know when you when you think about all the costs it takes to get to higher ed and then on top of that to get almost a surprise bill for how much your books are it's it can be the straw that breaks the camel's back. I do know I mean CCV has done a lot of work on that and I mean Joyce would certainly say that there are students that when they're choosing which section to take will look to see what the cost of textbooks are I mean they're not they're pretty smart in figuring out what the costs are and I know we've had faculty you know I know Greg Petricks up at NVU Johnson has is really you know doing an enormous amount um in this area so it's it's not to suggest we don't have people doing really good right on this already but it's just something we can expand on and help improve for for students. Do I want to add anything on? I would just say echo what Sophie says um we a few years ago went to um making it available so faculty know when they order it order their textbooks they know what the cost is because I think in all fairness I think a lot of times faculty ordered a textbook but didn't really know what to cost there now faculty can find out I mean it's right there you know the price changes a little bit but you get the ballpark I mean it might be you know 199 now and it might be 189 when because it's a it's a it's a rolling piece until they lock it in but I think the other piece is helping students also in the end with their costs and so I think you all know we started a life gap endowment program so that is oftentimes it's those those invisible barrier you know expenditures they get in the way people get out how to pay for tuition and all of a sudden they do have this huge um textbook cost and they run from continuing education so I think trying to figure out on both ends contain costs being creative and also are there ways that we can support students as because there always will be some costs so are there some ways to deal with it on both ends that's great thanks Joyce any other any other questions or comments we'll have a broader opportunity to talk about this at the full board meeting but what I do hope is that we can approve these as you know recommendations from the long-range planning committee and have them be presented that would be helpful because then the presidents can continue their work on the strategies if we don't know what the board's going to approve it's it's harder for them to do that so there aren't any questions I'd ask for a motion from the from the committee if we're so interested to do that at this time I'd like to make one comment yeah Bill yeah I think in in terms of follow-up uh this follow-up surveys to see where students are after they've graduated I think we need to be thoughtful about not having somehow that conveyed as there's a judgment involved as to what is success and what is not success that that that may contribute to the nature of the response that we get if we have a certain idea like oh well if you've done this then we've been successful and you've been successful but if you have achieved this in this time frame people might be less likely to say what they're really doing yeah it's interesting Bill maybe maybe it's almost you know this qualitative like are you you know how how satisfied are you with the you know with your with the position or the job that you have now or you know is this the is this the field that you wanted that you were intending to go in and that you wanted to go in you know and if people are able to say yeah you know I was able to do what I wanted to do and I'm enjoying it those are good those are as important metrics make sure that when we break out groups on this group storm some of those kinds of questions that were much broader than you know some material success or your salary or whatever it really went to you know are you fulfilled or is this what you thought you were going to get you know it was it was a pretty broad it was a brainstorm so I'm sure the I'm sure that the system will figure out the right question yeah it was never intended to be this narrow targeted definition yeah I'm sure there's smart people thinking about this so thank you and just to comment just a sidebar there's and I won't name the person but everybody here would know the person um pretty successful pretty successful CEO of a major Vermont corporate entity and you'd look at all the skill set that that person would need drama major and the world is filled with people who did all kinds of things study different things and end up there's something that if you step back and thought about it a bit you'd think my god yeah that those skills do relate to this or it led into picking up some other background with something and that philosophy major for example that and it didn't work at this time but that's a great major for people who go into a number of things um anyway um so I hear what you're saying Bill but you know straight out of college people aren't going to land where they're going to land ultimately in life they're doing something that may lead it's a step into something but it's fine yeah that's part of what I was thinking about as well you got a false measurement only the parents sometimes choice you'll mute muted yes just for the record my undergraduate degree is in animal science and if you'd ask me two years three years five years out of college what I was doing it wouldn't have been it wouldn't have it wouldn't have been classified probably as a success story I think I'm saying some of the same things by some personal projection here Western European history yeah Lynn just some of that just some of that get um yeah because it's skewed toward the people who are happy and successful in their minds um as a survey but um and obviously many several years out we become more um wise about what we consider to be success and what we want to do obviously many of us didn't do the things that we did in college but um when you hire a third part third party group or even if you created a non um it costs money but the point is is that you could create a you know like VSEC is a totally different group than we are for instance and they could under their ages we could do it something like that where you get a real response not just only the good people the Facebook happy people I'll make a motion I don't know if we're still looking for a motion we are thank you so bill has moved do we have a second I think Karen's waving I'll second right Karen thank you very much bill's moved Karen second all those in favor please indicate by saying aye aye aye I have it and the recommendations are adopted by the Long Range Planning Committee for further recommendation to the board so thank you very much everyone thank you um Sophie so Sophie I'll turn it back to you now to talk about the broader public committee that both Megan and Joyce have been highly involved in Joyce actually the chairperson of but Sophie why don't we turn it over to you to get that detailed information about their activities so far yeah so I've included materials in the packet but I'll I'll just run through quickly so the select committee was created by the legislature in the first quarter transitional budget and as as a trustee lip at noted last time there was an expectation that the the creation of the select committee was also part of the decision to provide us with the bridge funding so you know there is some expectation that we will be working with and alongside the select committee as we move forward it was intended to assist the state of Vermont in addressing the urgent needs of the Vermont state colleges and develop an integrated vision and plan for a high quality affordable and workforce connected future for public higher education in the state is the specific language that it was created to do there are 15 members I won't read through all of them but they're from you know we've got their community business members there's a senator a representative the president of VSAT the president of UVM trustee from UVM we obviously have Megan there's our trustee on it there are several designes from the state administration so there's Sarah Buxton from workforce development Heather Boucher from the agency of education we have Dan Daly who's one of our faculty members at NVU Linden we have Devin Tingle who's a student at Vermont Tech as mentioned Joyce Judy the administrator from the Vermont state college system but she's also the chair of the committee myself Megan Kluver and then we have Jeff Weld who is an alum and former employee as well from Castleton University so we've we have a number of representatives on the committee the committee has 15 there's a steering group that has five people on it so trustee Kluver and president Judy are on the steering group along with Briar Alpert who is the UVM trustee Heather Boucher and Sarah Buxton and the steering group selected an external consultant to work with the select committee we pay for that out of our bridge funding it it's where we didn't get to pick it was done through by the steering group and is managed through the joint fiscal office but it does come out of the bridge funding the five million that we got in that first quarter transitional budget so the I've included in the materials I'm not going to read it all out but the charge to the committee the external consultant that was was selected was NCHEMS which I now know is national centre for higher education management systems so we're not using just acronyms and they've been working the last couple of months on this they were given when they initially submitted their proposal the thought was it was an 18 month process once the committee was formed there was an understanding that 18 months which is what's provided for in the legislation is really too long and so the steering group has shortened the the timelines so right now the first interim report by NCHEMS is due December 4 the second report is due February 12th and the final report April 16th so that really condenses the timeframe in which NCHEMS has to do its work there is and I find it very interesting so I've included in the materials but is the RFP that NCHEMS provided where they they had an additional piece to the RFP but it it discusses how they propose getting all the work done within this very short timeframe and I think that's a helpful thing I would encourage the the the trustees to review it I know there are questions about what is it the select committee is doing and how are they doing it and that's really laid out in great detail in that document so right now the the first interim report is we're scheduled to be focused on financial sustainability but I understand from the the RFP that it's going to be broader than that and I think that under the RFP that they put out they're indicating they will be in that report they'll be talking about back office operations of campuses that can be centralized either at the system office or the campus within the system that has the greatest capacity to perform the functions educational programs being delivered collaboratively which again we've already heard about this morning from Epsil and again the back office operations I mean these are all things that we're looking at right now they also are talking about local sites being maintained to student service centers and looking at different scenarios under which the Vermont state colleges can maintain fiscal sustainability and so students employers in the state so I believe that that first report will be beyond just the financial sustainability and again I know trustee cluver and president Judy will probably have more information than I do because I know they had a steering group committee just this week which I haven't had a chance to watch yet all these meetings are live streamed and they're available after the fact as well on YouTube so there's the select committee has been meeting approximately once a month and the steering group and I'm looking at you Megan are you meeting once a week or once every couple of weeks I know it's more frequently than we're meeting we're meeting every other week Sophie okay um so I did include in the materials there's on the joint fiscal office website there's just general background information some of it I thought would be helpful for this committee to have by way of resources there are active links in those materials and then I included some of the power points that the legislature that the nchams group has used to present to the select committee as well as they have a list of proposed goals and high level observations and then the presentation that we had at our last committee meeting which was on October 19th they presented some summary observations at the October 19th meeting and I did want to run through those with you they've recognized that business as usual is not an option nor is incremental change to the status quo I think everyone has a concern this is just another legislative committee it'll do its work it'll get put on a shelf somewhere nothing will happen I would like to believe that this time is different I believe that people recognize that the status quo is not acceptable and that this is a genuine commitment by the legislature and the state to really engage in what the future of the Vermont State College is and the future of public higher education in Vermont is so that's something you know that I think we we should take hope from it's not just a legislative committee that you know they're going to do something and no one's going to pay any further attention to it there are other observations whether the vsc is overbuilt for its current student population both in personnel and facilities they say that in the face of unfavorable demographic trends right sizing of the Vermont State Colleges will require some combination of increasing enrollments among populations not currently being served reducing employment and the physical footprint of the campuses certainly the population is not currently being served there's a focus on adult learners the credentials serving the adult population and completing degrees but also industry recognized credentials other things that we can be providing education on another observation is that neither the state's higher education policies nor institutional practices are designed to meet the needs of underserved populations adults and low income students again that's something we're hoping to address with the strategic priorities we've been discussing we obviously have our student population is quite distinct from that of uvm we do serve a lot of students that are would traditionally be underserved by higher education we have a lot of Pell eligible students we have a lot of students that come from you know challenging circumstances first generation low income disabilities so we do you know we do seek to serve those students but evidently there's more work we can do on that their fifth observation compelling educational and political reasons exist not to close institutions but maintaining existing locations can only be accomplished by implementing substantial changes to institutional missions and functions uh their sixth is the vsc institution policies are designed to serve institutional needs not students and create barriers to student enrollment and success so that's something I would be interested in hearing more from them in terms of what what do they see specifically as barriers that we can address and again to the extent those are institutional policies that's something we can be working with the board on and then their final point was a critical to identify where the leadership and the ability to marshal the political will that will be necessary to implement this so that committee's recommendations can come from within vermont um so I think that's the other piece is where is where is the will going to be you know the legislature the the governor with you know internally the board of trustees and then you know other stakeholders around the state is who's going to be pushing to make sure that these recommendations are when they're made are are implemented so um I'm happy to answer any questions you may have I would certainly would defer to um trustee cluver and to president to judy as they're the ones that are really in the room where it's all happening right now as far as the steering group goes I would defer Megan do you want to go first yeah there's one comment I would add um and one piece where I do think this uh committee in this this work will be particularly effective we've talked quite a bit about the different efforts that are going on over the past year and the different stakeholder groups um and I'm very optimistic from the work that we've heard from this group and and the work that the consultants have underway that they are going to be able to distill the different stakeholder perspectives from those different task forces and pull together the common themes coupled when their perceptions from the external environment and present us with a holistic picture so I think that will be very helpful to us as a board and a system as we start to get these interim reports yeah and I should have added as well as I do know um that they will be reaching out to I mean they're talking to a whole variety of stakeholders but I have been contacted about you know who are our union leaders um who are our chairs of um faculty assemblies um I don't know where that that is I'm not involved in that piece of it but my understanding is that they are reaching out to our internal stakeholders as well yes they are and I would also say that um so NCHEMS is organizing some of this but the New England Board of Higher Education is really stepping up and helping to coordinate some of the focus groups so if you get something from them anybody that's listening on this make sure you respond to it um and I know that they are doing a lot in the next couple weeks so they're really trying to pull together a lot of different constituencies really really fast in some ways this is you know as they have said under if we weren't in a COVID environment they would be here in Vermont for three or four days and meet with a lot of different people um on the flip side they can do a lot of this um over Zoom which is more efficient but sometimes the conversation is more challenging when it's a group of people who don't know each other so but I know that they are doing that I also know that um with some of the legislative leadership they're trying to be really sensitive to the election and so they are reaching out to legislative leadership um different the governor's office they are waiting until after Tuesday just out of respect for um the the the you know the whole process and just waiting to make sure that people have the time they want to campaign and do that those things um and then they will be hitting them up but so I know that that is underway um you know I would also say just one other thing that I in this and both the committee meetings the select committee and the steering committee are public meetings so they're live streamed um so this is all public but at our last meeting um they NChems talked about the six buckets that they're looking at that they are going to be coming to the select committee um on November 9th and making very um detailed recommendations under these six buckets and would it be helpful for me just to run through the the six buckets because it gives you a flavor of what they're looking at um so and I'm seeing Mike raise yeah that would be great joy so I will I will take my cue from you as the chair um so the six buckets and quickly I'll just go through the first bucket is structure and mission they're trying they're all they're looking at a at a number of ways of what would be they will come away with some recommendations around um what the system should look like um very specifically in terms of structure um the second one is administrative services I'm really trying to come up with a plan um around uh consolidating administrative services and this isn't about consolidating administrative services and I think you know Sophie's talked about this today there's been a number of references to it it's not about creating more at the central office it's about thinking about how to deliver the services across across the system I also want to just mention as I mentioned these buckets I think I had a conversation yesterday with Janet Bombardier and I think she was spot on that I think that there's a sense of urgency and while I think you will see the work that the board is doing right now and that the colleges are doing and that Sophie mentioned with the strategic planning none of these are in conflict with I think some of the work and some of the recommendations that the NCHEMS will come with I think they may come with more force and they will give the um the legislature and the governor's office and this board sort of something to fall back on in terms of no this this these recommendations came from an outside entity but I would say that that this that the board should not slow down their conversations for fear that something that they're doing with the recommendations that come forward um and Megan are um if you feel like that's not you should you should speak up for sure so the third bucket so a structure mission administrative services program array and delivery they are really thinking a lot about embedded credentials and building that um really thinking about credentials degrees and how do we make sure that people as they come in and out of education that they are leaving with something can come back but they can build on they're not in isolation the fourth is resource allocation they um they believe that I think they're going to come up with a different recommendation and how the um this was my sense they didn't specifically say this but I think that they feel like there may be other ways to think about distributing for example the state appropriation that have we thought about some of those other things um physical space they um are really they really understand or they feel very strongly that there's way too much physical space um in the vsc and I think they're going to come with some recommendations of how to how to how to address some of that and then the final bucket is really uvm and vsc alignment um they are really thinking very strongly coming from an outside perspective it's always interesting when someone comes in from an outside and they've had a lot of experience in other um where they think there's some missed opportunity and so it'll be both from I think operational standpoint but also in terms of programmatic alignment um and thinking about how do we collectively better serve the state than we're doing now so I'll stop there and I'll turn it back Megan and see if you have some other other things but I thought it might be helpful for this group to hear those broader buckets yes I think that captured it very well um and I I think one point that's really stuck out to me is that in the discussions of the committee um they very much have been aligned with the strategic priorities that we've discussed here today the discussion in epsil so I think even as we all try and operate in this world where there's so many different moving parts I do see them all starting to come together at least directionally and Joyce or Megan just to remind everyone that those recommendations will be ready on November 9th or they'll be presented at a meeting that's going to be on November 9th so they will be so the next step is for them to present um you know they're a draft to the select committee because in the end the select committee has to give their feedback and get behind and support it um and this is we are the select committee is meeting twice in November the steering committee I said yesterday I wish they didn't have so many s's like give us a different name but the select committee steering committee is the small group and we we meet every other week but the select committee is the larger group that Sophie referenced and they are we're meeting twice in November because they are going to present to us their brought their plan on November 9th for feedback they will take that and find their recommendations and get give us another crack at their draft the end of November because then it will be released to legislative leadership in the governor's office in early December and now and I think by then you know even though they'll have two more like layers of a draft due after that I think the December early December meeting early December draft is going to give us I think all of us collectively a fair amount of specificity or that's what I'm hoping for um Megan would you agree yes and the between December the second draft is in April do I have that right uh it's mid February mid February yeah in between December and mid February that's an opportunity for for all types of stakeholder feedback is that the is that the idea yes and they're also planning after the December meeting between December and February you know they will continue to make adjustments make changes but also their plan is to be out I don't like this term but this is this is a term that's commonly used is socializing the plan to see what needs to be adjusted what you know where do they not go deep enough where is it like this is like no this isn't going to work those kind of things and at the same time providing more detail I think that you know so it's a couple different layers because the December meeting I mean the December draft you know will have some detail but I think that over time in an all fairness as they're out talking to other people how do they get even more more provide more detail that said I also want to just caution all of us that you know this is happening pretty fast and so I think that they will provide sort of the guideposts but I think the level of detail that will to really action will be this board and the and the colleges along with working side by side with the legislation because in the end the legislature and the governor's office are going to have to find the financial wherewithal and support it the act of doing and the implementation has going to have to happen here so I think the critical pieces we got it you know and this is the magic and can we make this happen is can this all come together and can we all come together behind this and sort of move us forward it's a heavy lift I recognize that but I think we're all trying to give it our all so like yeah Karen first of all I want to thank there are there's so many people to thank in our system and beyond the folks that are on these committees and working hard not the least of which are our two contributions to this effort three contributions to this effort so I thank you all I and I've tried to follow all this and there's a lot of good thinking and and the end times in particular I I thought we're really headed asking the right questions they made some very interesting and I think on target observations and they provide dates and the trustee I get lost I will admit in the world of dates with all the committees and this is helpful can anyone provide or is it too early to provide there is an end date when we no longer get money from anybody to keep us going and we're living in uncertain times they could even exacerbate I don't want to be a black cloud but I know in my little world we plan what if we end up like we did last year what do we do here how do we so we've been thinking and I know you folks have been thinking are there dates even tentative dates that the trustees can plan on so that we know by this date when we get this and I know we're going to be doing things as we go along but are there dates that we can tentatively put on the calendar that we know that by this date we need to take take some action uh that we have guidepost have you folks I guess this is a good question I guess for Sophie or or Joyce do we have it's a perfect segue because actually our next discussion is going to be on precisely that sorry that's okay I don't want to jump ahead but um we we will be discussing those momentarily and so maybe finish this discussion and then we can get into that about Adam then Lynn yeah great thank you one of the things that really jumped out of me and I thought this I think they called the survey of the environment or something the title of their study that just really popped out of me and I think I knew this from our from just our work um but the the statistic that 30 to 40 percent of our courses have less than 20 students really with the way the chart showed that and this is the ccv is the exception to that um that really jumped out at me uh and then if you go to the the last screen where it does the sort of um financial sustainability results vitally important or necessary and unavoidable survey um that reductions and operating expenses that may impact array of programs offered at each campus has really strong support in both vitally important and necessary and unavoidable so it it seems to indicate that there's really I think I feel like that didn't necessarily exist in the past a consensus um that hard decisions are ahead uh and that really what's driving our challenges is that we have in my opinion too many courses with too few students it's not rocket science that's not surprised to anybody but this data really highlights that and yeah Adam you weren't I don't think you were part of the previous discussion for Epsilon but that that was a big focus of what we we had just um we talked about too so we're happy to follow up with you on that um as well yeah just uh it was helpful for my thinking going forward great um thanks Adam how about Lynn yeah thank you um one of the things that I know there's a concern that I've heard from people on the board here is that we are not getting enough feedback from external people um people in the communities people in the state who would have a there that were a little bit too much inside the bottle inside the bubble um and I know I was told somewhere that that's what your committees are going to do is get some feedback from outsiders if you haven't already the question I have is so how did we get access to that or do we have to watch it on YouTube or for what well I think that um Lynn I would say that they they're doing those meetings um we as you you were I know Sophie asked all of you we all submitted stakeholders that we thought the groups they should be reaching out to and I know they're doing that in different ways those are not public those are not they're not live streaming those conversations they'll be summarizing those conversations so we certainly can get um through Sophie and Megan and I we can provide the board with that feedback um but they are convening their plan is um they have been doing a combination of one um doing some individual discussions with people but also trying to bring together very small groups of different individuals um you know there's a number of people from the business community that um that they've been um that we've asked you know what I love about I find very interesting is there are four or five people on the select committee that are that even though like um Jeff Weld even though he's an alum he is a director of I think communications or something at Cassella so he has a very strong business or even though he's an alum of castleton he brings a business perspective um and um the the um the member of the board of trustees Breider Elpert um he is rep he is there representing the the union board of trustees and yet his he has a phenomenal so I think that what I'm grateful to is there's five or six people on the select committee that don't have a higher ed background but they have a they bring a business perspective and they represent really important business sectors in the state so so um yes we're trying to go outside of the committee but we're also I'm pretty happy that um we have a pretty diverse select group I one of the things and I would be curious what Sophie and Megan think is that even though we're on zoom and the 15 people don't know each other the level of engagement is when we have these meetings is is it it's great and I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised and pleased by that the people are very much in uh Sophie and Megan thoughts I mean feedback about that oh I would say yes I mean I'm I'm I'm grateful I tend to not say much because I feel like I'm inside I I prefer to listen and hear what everyone's saying but um yeah the and I would say the amount of engagement has increased with each meeting um but certainly I would say at the last meeting I was very happy to see people speak up and and and and discuss you know the topics and I'd say the group it's it is a very diverse and a very effectively diverse group and I think I'm also seeing folks really become more educated around what we do as a system and some of the challenges and opportunities and I think that will be helpful in getting to a a really effective long-term plan going forward. The only other thing I would add is one of the things I think this that has been quite effective that Enchants has used is because the select committee only meet once once a month they are constantly at sending out little mini surveys and questionnaires to the select committee for feedback based on you know like this is what we've heard you know what do you think so it's so even though we're only meeting once a month there is a lot of engagement trying to build engagement and see that from the committee between meetings which I think has has contributed to when we have a zoom meeting more engagement. One last question um Joyce and Megan the uh Adam referred to the environmental high-level observations a lot of these are things many of us involved with this board and maybe even involved in the legislature a few people in the legislature are aware of these things this is a pretty diverse group what how do they react to these things and some of them are pretty obvious but how are they responding to these interesting observations about Vermont and our education women our demographics and all of it. You know I would say Lynn it's across the board you know and I think um what Adam just I think there are pieces of stuff that everybody sort of knows but some people don't know what community there's other nuggets in that data that are like you know I had this inkling but now it's staring me right in the face so I think that I think that um Ensham's approach was we need to provide everyone with a baseline of data and that my hunch is that this is what they do when they work with any status they have to establish okay here's so that everyone who's involved in this work sort of has sort of so I think that people um Lynn you know for people that are internal to this Sophie uh this is the rest of the president um Garamella at UVM different people know this stuff but I think others are it's establishing a baseline that gives them like oh this is really serious and we need to uh to do something about it and the stat and to move away from the status quo being acceptable. Okay thank you. Sophie anything to add on this or should we go to the timelines because I think we should go to the timelines because I know we're getting close to you know to our to our endpoint and I again I want to make sure people have time chance to go grab something to eat and take a breather before we dive into finance and facilities so um Yasmin's going to help me with this um we've I just just to make it easier I I find dates easier if I can see them um so this is just and we can share this um after the meeting as well um so yeah the next slide Yasmin um this is just looking through again you know at the last meeting that we had I think there was a concern and Karen just echoed it um in terms of what's happening and when and given all these interconnected processes that are moving forward so I just these are really just the dates but I just want to run through um so everyone kind of has a a sense of of of what the timelines look like so the next one right so the legislative select committee these are the the full meetings that of the whole the group of 15 that are coming up and then when the draft reports are due so again you can see we're meeting approximately monthly um and when those three um those three reports are due we will um and we've got coming up you'll see on the slide but we have that December 4th I think will be a significant date we're hoping very much there won't be a request for an extension of that date um that's a Friday we have a full board meeting on the 7th which is the Monday right after that so we won't have much chance to digest whatever comes out on the 4th but um there will be you know we will have a meeting after that and I'm hoping we'll be adding some additional meetings for us as a board moving forward so the next one Yasmin um the other piece that's going to be critical to this obviously is the budget I mean we can have all the recommendations in the world but if we don't know what the financial support is going to be from the state that's in and of itself is going to dictate what we can do if we have you know greater support um additional bridge funding we can do more if um if we don't then what we have to do we're going to have a much shorter timeline going to going to Karen's point we're going to have a much shorter timeline in which to take action and the action will need to of necessity be more dramatic um so this is what we're currently looking at for the state budget and the legislative process so we have we have to submit our request to the administration coming up November 20th um and then you know we will be working with the governor's office to hopefully be included in the governor's budget and then you know we'll be working with legislative leaders moving forward as the budget proceeds we're trying to you know we are already working on that um and laying the groundwork now I think it's too late to wait until you know January I think Bill Lippert made that point at the last meeting that this work is already underway and we need to be part of the conversation now that's happening over at the state house and we are we are doing that the next one so this is our current meetings that we have scheduled um so again you can see we have the December 7th meeting which is just the next day business day after the report comes out so I'm what I would like and we can we can talk about this more at the on November meeting I would hope that we could find a time in in January um to have a board meeting um and then one in February as well the February one to be after the February the second report comes out and then my thought is that we should have one in late April after the final report comes out just to make sure that we're staying on track uh with the select committee and the next one so this is we'll be talking about this obviously far more this afternoon um but as far as our system budget goes and I think this this goes along again to the concern about timing and when decisions have to be made we'll have an initial discussion about the FY 22 budget this afternoon um we're just at the very beginning of that process we're actually early compared to where we normally are in talking about the um next academic year budget but we'll be doing you know first pass um second pass budget refinement so again as we go through our budget process we'll be keeping track of what's happening with the select committee and what's happening in the legislature with the budget um and I think that will help inform us as to you know what actions we we may need to take and what the timelines for those would be so these pieces all fit together as we move forward um in the next one um this just repeats um what we had already talked about earlier about our strategic priorities this is work that will be going on while we while all those other things are happening we will be continuing to do this work and then I think the final slide um this was just as a placeholder really and and we can discuss this further if the board would like more education on this but depending on what decisions are made um if we're looking at reconfiguration whether that's a consolidation of institutions um single accreditation I mean there are a variety of of possibilities out there these are other deadlines that we would need to be aware of so the length of time that we have to make these obviously is going to depend on the availability of the resources we have so again that's the financial piece as to how much time we would have to to accomplish things um but just as a and we we sort of know this from having gone through the unification of Johnson and Linden these things take along the the other pieces the external pieces take time so um any significant change technically called a substantive change would have to be prepared that doesn't happen quickly um and we would then submit the substantive change proposal to NETCHI which is our the New England Commission on Higher Education which is our regional accreditor then NETCHI has to go through their review and approval process and depends on timing of when you get a substantive change proposal in they meet a certain number of times a year and then the other piece is the Department of Education approval um if we're changing the institution so for example as we did with Johnson and Linden you have to get approval from the Department of Education in order to get financial aid and obviously financial aid is is the life blood of our institutions if we don't have access to financial aid we we're not going to be able to function at all um so that's the other piece to remember is that the the Department of Education approval it takes some time but it has to be time to coincide with the start of the financial age year so that that isn't a floating time through the year that's that has to be done sort of in the spring um to make sure that we are we're ready to issue financial aid for whatever a new institution or a new you know entity would look like as of um July 1st so those I just wanted to share with you and again we're happy to um provide further education to the board if there's interest um as we move I mean I anticipate there would be as we move forward if we start getting into those kinds of discussions um would be to you know um reach out and have um you know someone come in to sort of talk about what what those pieces look like in greater detail thanks Yasmin any questions on the timelines and again I will we'll share that with with all of you I just um we've been kind of working on it so we didn't have it in the original board materials we will get a copy of these yes I'll I'll send that to you and we'll add it to the board materials that were posted but we'll we'll go ahead and add that in thanks yes I'll go ahead Bill um well thank you uh I would also just ask is there when we talked about like some kind of gantt chart or something along the lines of that to the degree that the various schedules of meetings for the select committee the board etc if they could be merged into one single document that shows okay this is when this this this is how these fit together I mean just rather than having to kind of like well we did this is very helpful but but that would be my that would be my desire so Yasmin did do a beautiful gantt chart but it just seemed like it was really hard to display that so um but we will just a chronological listing of everything you just had but just put them you know the color differentiated or something we will work on the board of directors these are select committees these are just we'll work on that it just this was the kind of the easier way to make it more understandable in the moment that's great um a couple other comment quick quick comment if there's any type of recommendation that requires statutory change not just financial money financial appropriation but there could be something that requires actually statutory change I think that has not been I mean that was that's been mentioned somewhere along the way but I think it needs to be put on our radar so that if in fact the underlying statute needs some modification that should be thought about and put into some kind of time frame as well I think that was I mean maybe that's reflected I just didn't pick up on it well no no it wasn't reflected on that per se but I think what president Judy just indicated was one of the buckets that would be discussed in that the December 4th report included that aspect of it so I think that if if that's the case if they're going to be making a recommendation that would require legislative attention we presumably we will know that by early December because otherwise it's going to be out of the the cycle in order to get addressed at this upcoming legislative session right well it just needs to be reflected in the time frame okay so there's certain things that again as as you've done well with the uh the financial time frame timeline there would be stakeholder process inside the building so to speak which we don't go inside anymore but you know as to how that would transpire yeah that's a good point thanks bill this is just such a monumental effort in my view to involve everyone who wants to be involved on a variety of fronts and to get expertise professional expertise it's objective so I I think it's a great effort and I think it's a necessary effort and I think it's going to lead to credibility and to it'll enhance the ability to um put this out to Vermonters um there will be change and and there may be people who aren't happy but at least they will be presented with a rationale for whatever changes are are put forward so I feel good about this and again I'm grateful you folks are working so hard above and beyond all right well I think that's yeah and bill bill the legislator's working till October of 2021 again so we have plenty of time right we don't we don't plan to and we're contributing our services now continuing to contribute our services any other any other questions on the timeline I think that's a good idea though to get it in one unified document so we can see how they line up and and Sophie I think the timeline that we have control over the board meetings or whatnot that make sense in terms of the timing you know when we need to when we need to have those group meetings well then why don't we go to um any other business lunch yeah so why don't we uh any public comment then and if there is please also speak up because I don't have everyone on my screen but seen and hearing none um so Sophie do we need to vote to adjourn or can we just um adjourn I think I think I don't think anyone's going to object so why don't we uh all those in favor of adjourning I think I heard a lot of muted eyes