 Hello and welcome to another meeting of DM25's Coordinating Collective. As every week, we are going to discuss Europe's burning issues. But before we do that today, we've got a special guest, we've got David Adler from the Progressive International, our sister organization who has recently represented the Progressive International in Ecuador and has updates for us on what's happening there. So we'll kick off with David and then we'll move to burning issues. Let's go. David. Thanks. Yeah, love it to be with you all. You know, the PI's motivating force has always been to make solidarity more than a slogan, trying to think of the ways that we can make this internationalism feel real in people's lives and move from a kind of symbolic mode to one that is really substantive. And in this work, you know, this electoral observatory has kind of come into formation by necessity rather than by design. So being called to action in Bolivia to go protect democracy there, and indeed being called to action in Ecuador. As many of you may have seen with with the increasing and escalating risk of a soft coup. So Ecuador is, for lack of a better word, completely and totally absurd. If you've not been following this, this particular strain of absurdity, the Progressive International is being accused of facilitating through its virtual summit alone between the National Liberation Army the gorillas in the jungles of Columbia, and the candidate Andres arouse, even though the video in which they're shown with their Colossian cobs firing into the air saying we support combat house has been debunked by linguists, as well as ornithologists who have identified the bird sounds as being not even remotely part of the Colombian natural landscape but actually either in northern Peru or in Ecuador itself. And yet despite this absurdity. I was there the last day I was there the general attorney of Columbia flew with all the pomp and circumstance of a diplomatic visit from Columbia to the capital Kito to meet with the fiscal year there and present a stack of documents and laptops that were supposedly recovered from a dead soldier, very conveniently to indicate on that laptop in some secret files that indeed this loan had taken place. So, the situation Ecuador is basically one of desperation I think on behalf of the reactionary right there. Throwing everything against the wall and seeing what sticks. And what's critical I think from the position of DM with activists across Europe and progressive international more broadly is that the same conversation we had all across the country to stay there that this solidarity has been critical but the attention that of the international community to these issues bringing that kind of transparency and vigilance has been essential to preserving the integrity of the elections and we've won a sustained set of victories and the work that we've done together between PI and DM has been from all accounts we have for people on the ground just really essential and swinging very narrow votes to, you know, to push under SRLs for example off the ballot, you know and criminalizing the opposition and a range of legal warfare tactics. So this has not this is not going to stop, but, but our delegation was a, you know, we were we were making real headwinds in trying to deepen our relationships and build out you know what the PI can mean to Ecuadorians on the ground and play a real role that we think we can learn a lot from this in terms of the construction towards this broader electoral observatory. Of course election observation is the kind of feels like a weak instrument. So far as you know we're kind of observing elections walking around with with little clipboards, but actually it does provide a lot of capacity and one of the things we learned in Ecuador is we brought with us a technical team, which is something we didn't have in Bolivia. So we had data analysts election real election data scientists who are able to give us real time proper analysis that matched up almost to the exact vote count at the end of the first round, and that assuming that that technical capacity, especially in a place like Ecuador where there are these baseless claims of fraud that are lobbied against specific candidates as a as a vehicle for their expulsion or in the case of Bolivia grounds for their, you know, exile and criminalization, and this is really, really critical. So this kind of motive, sort of, if you if you can forgive the phrase brigade like mobilization, where we're bringing people from around the world to be present for these elections has been really rewarding and I think a key piece of this PI work and it's something that we should discuss together about you know what what are those key terrains and not enough not going there just because we think we should be there but going there because people on the ground are asking us to be there you know, we're being asked by our members to be to be present and vigilant in defense of democratic institutions. So that's really exciting. And any other update that just feels really present to the particular moment is that, as we sit here, preparations for the G 20 finance, the finance ministers are the G 20 are preparing to meet to prepare a common framework for the global debt crisis. And, you know, by any reasonable assessment the framework that they've put on the table is not a framework for for resolving this debt crisis but rather a kind of debtors prison for the civil south that are being asked to swallow it. They are committing Janice's cardinal sin of mistaking a crisis of insolvency for a crisis of liquidity, and threatening to basically delay and just, you know, continue forever on word system in which so many countries are paying more to service their international debts than they are paying for healthcare. So our debt justice collective which has convened scholars and practitioners ranging from people working on debt imprisonment in Sierra Leone to Jayati Ghosh a friend of the M25s are working together to kind of think we put forward a kind of alternative set of proposals for you know what needs to go in this many of which are reflected, you know, in the work that the M45 isn't doing at the European level, and thinking through these questions of sovereign debt. But what's critical is that this is a very lonely voice. You know, the G20, like many of these very powerful multilateral institutions, indeed like the Eurogroup for many years gets away with being a kind of deep politicized space with not a lot of contention mass contention and sort of democratic contestation. And we see our role speaking across various constituencies with various representatives of movements and parties to fill that space and ensure that there is not just transparency but an alternative vision to kind of contest with that at the same time. So those are two big updates. You'll forgive the fact that I'm in a little hotel room in the middle of nowhere but I'm happy to be with you and and and talk a bit more about the work of the PI in the month to come. Thanks David hotel room forgiven. Anyone want to come in. Any updates on PI. Yes. Well, thanks David for this briefing quite comprehensive. I'm looking at the PI from a distance that you don't have because you're in the belly of the beast, at least organizationally. There are two complementary but separate tasks that the PI has as I said, one is solidarity with whatever it's happening the struggles that are happening on the ground. So, for instance, the work in Ecuador is a work of solidarity with our comrades in Ecuador struggling to preserve some basic democratic standards and to prevent an election from being stolen, for instance, similarly in Bolivia, similarly in other places. This is essential work, but it's only part of the work. Besides defending and solidarity. The PI must play a leadership role, bringing issues and campaigns to different localities whether it's Ecuador or Germany or wherever that would not have have gone there otherwise. That is the whole point of us working together. So it seems to me that, you know, given that the PI is very young organization, we're doing the right thing to start with solidarity and gradually build up the leadership role. You know, the discussion that is now taking place in which you alluded to regarding debt, the tsunami of debt that's hitting the world, particularly private debt for the little people in inverted commas little people. This is going to swamp, you know, progressive forces as a huge, huge problem, both in the developing countries. And in the developed ones. Now, there are so many things to talk about, but I just want to mention one thing, just for the present context. We are facing a major balancing act between not enough radicality and too many delusions, radical delusions. So there is no doubt that some of the members of the PI are rooted in a tradition which is heartwarming. But absolutely out of sync with the times, regarding their model of, you know, the theory of change and what what they're talking about. I won't say more you know them, referring to. But then there is the danger of too much pragmatism. There is the discussion on debt. For instance, and I've been a guilty party to this to some extent, because, you know, in my struggle as finance ministers and so on to find something that can be done today. You know, I was always proposing that the structuring using the existing instruments of the financial markets, which are, you know, the all these things have their place in what we were doing. We need to think more long term. We need to think more radically about debt, and we need to think more radically about what we need to do at the global level. In order to transcend the current state that we find ourselves in, which some people talk about in terms of globalization, I talk about it in terms of what I call techno feudalism. Right. And one last thought on this and I'll shut up. Good friends of ours members of the PI as well. People who whom we have been working with for a very long time. They have a tendency and it's quite natural I have that tendency to, to look back at previous decades, searching for solutions. For instance, you know, Jamie Galbraith, my great friend, and, you know, demer from the, you know, from the University of Texas. You know, he's, he's, he's as a Galbraith, because he's the son of Galbraith, he's imagining a Galbraithian approach to, you know, putting the genie in the bottle, the genie being oligarchic power, the power of big business of coral corporate He's imagining a world similar to that in 1945 when, you know, the New Deal became international with finances being constrained through the Bretton Woods process. Trust busting government that even threatens the large corporations with nationalization. That's quite natural because it works back then, at least to some extent. And it's the obvious thing to do today, at least in the mindset of many. But I don't think that we can look to the past for solutions for the present. I don't think that the state exists anymore anywhere, anywhere, not in Ecuador, not in America, not in Germany, not in Greece, that can utilize the power of government in order to constraint and civilize corporations. You know that I am over the last year, very keen to discuss ownership of corporations and to discuss or to propose that to propose to promote the view that we need to rethink share markets. We need to ban share markets. That's a huge statement to make, but I will keep making it. I'm turning 60 in a few weeks, and I decided that a better campaign on this for the rest of my days, because I think that without that, as long as there exists share markets, combined with financial markets. We are not going to be able to civilize this beast. Thank you. Yeah, maybe just to add something as well to about the Progressive International. Besides what David said, and Yanis, I think one of the biggest updates is that we are going to have an anniversary very soon in two or three months. We are refreshing the Council of the Progressive International. And I think geopolitically speaking, you know, I probably heard the news that China just toppled the European Union as the biggest trade partner. So it's not the US anymore, but China looking at what's happening in Serbia, for instance, who are now six in the world when it comes to the vaccine rollout second in Europe. And now the creation government is also talking to China. You can obviously see that the geopolitics due to the pandemic, but not only due to the pandemic is rapidly shifting and changing. And I think in this world of rapidly shifting geopolitics, the Progressive International is crucial in the work the Progressive International is doing. So besides what Yanis is saying that it should focus more on a program, you know, a vision, what could concretely be done and being more present in specific countries, regions. I also see that the role of the Progressive International as filling the absent role of international movement. And I think in one year it has really accomplished a lot, not just by sending observatory delegations to Bolivia or Ecuador, but by the membership organizations who are joining the big Amazon campaign and strike and so on. So I think that the work is continuing. But I think we at the M25 should also start thinking about China and the changing geopolitics in Europe itself, because I think in 10 years it will look completely differently. I mean, it's already looking differently. So that's just my addition to this. Thank you, Srećko. We're kind of moving slowly towards burning issues. Maybe we should all mix it. Does anyone have any comments on anything that's been said so far or any other burning issues that are happening in the world really this week that they'd like to put on the table? Anybody? No. Nothing's happened in the world this week. It's been a quiet week in the world. I must say I watched the Yudas and the Black Messiah, which is not a world event, but it's a great movie, which I would suggest to everyone. Not just about revolution and betrayal, but about the infiltration in progressive movements, which we had some sorts of experiences with that as well. But sorry, Mekhan, it's just a proposal for our members to watch. That's very good. Film recommendations are also good to fill these awkward Zoom silences while everyone's thinking. Anyone want to go for Europe's Burning Issues? Well, it's Burning Issues. About Malta's journalist who died, who was killed. And today we learned that some people were arrested or I don't know what happened exactly, but do you know anything about it? Because they are talking about having a justice in Malta because of this tragic event. Janis. Well, it's only what I've read in the newspapers. The Maltese government, after years of doing absolutely nothing in purpose, they have announced that they are about to arrest or have arrested all the suspects in the case of the journalists of Galicia. I do not trust the Maltese government. We have to wait and see. Let me inform our members who are watching and comrades here. That there is another related case. Maria Fimova is a woman who lives now in Greece, in particular in Crete, where Mekhan is. And, you know, she comes from Malta and she's a whistleblower. Her life was threatened similarly. And now they are pursuing her husband to have him extradited from Greece to Cyprus, effectively the same mafia that is operating in Malta is operating in Cyprus. And Mera 25 GM 25 are engaged in a campaign to save her to save her husband. The two cases are going side by side. We have lawyers working on this full time. So we'll keep you up to date. Let's see how this develops. We had an interesting development this morning. The lawyer, the Mera 25 GM 25 lawyer who is working on this case called me this morning to say that the case that she had submitted to Interpol. She had sent a whole case to Interpol on this issue. Our lawyer that is sent the case to Interpol in Paris was informed today by Interpol that the DHL package that's sent to Paris was actually stolen. I have never heard of a DHL package being stolen, especially one that is being sent to Interpol. So something fishy is certainly happening. And, you know, if it moves like fish and smells like fish, it must be fishy. So there you are. But since I have the floor, let me let me say that as we speak, there is a European Union Council in progress over, of course, zoom or teleconference or some platform. I'm not sure exactly what the complete agenda is. But there is one burning issue. Or one issue that they are discussing which has a capacity to burn up the whole of Europe. And that is, of course, the discussion on when is austerity coming back with a vengeance in Germany. As we know, there is a very serious discussion happening, which is developing into a clash between the SPD and the CDU on something that seems inconsequential. That is the appointment of economists to the Council of Economic Experts. This is the first time in the history of the Federal Republic that SPD is vetoing the CDU appointees and the CDU is vetoing the SPD appointees. Usually it's all very consensual. That shows a number of things. It firstly shows that as Merkel is exiting the scene, there is a lot of jostling for position in the CDU in the SPD. The Greens waiting in the wings ready to join in a coalition government with the CDU. And it is clear that the Berlin establishment are divided amongst themselves regarding austerity. When should austerity hit again Italy, Spain, Greece and France? France is crucial. This European Union Council tonight is going to be dancing around these issues. You see, this is a tragedy of Europe. Our great and good leaders get together and they are not allowed to discuss directly that which matters. But they have to dance around it while behind the scenes, these decisions are being hammered out. So the reason why DM25 came into being was precisely because of this lack of transparency, because there's not even a single forum where decisions are made, where are their minutes and where we can follow what the hell is happening on our behalf. Okay, this is getting worse. So my view is that yet again, DM25 is more important now than it has ever been in a set of circumstances which makes our activism harder than ever before. You know, we have to operate through Zoom, and we have to operate in a world in a society which is completely and utterly stupefied by a politics that is very successful at depoliticizing itself and not having a direct debate on things that matter. Thank you, Janis. Judith. I heard that another topic that they're discussing today is the issue of vaccine passports and a perspective for tourism, specifically the issue of how to allow non EU citizens to start traveling to the EU again. For example, visitors from the UK from the USA from Israel to go on vacation in southern Europe. And we have come out against a vaccine passport because of privacy concerns. But I think that we as DM might want to have a more detailed proposal of how do we reconcile travel and support for the tourism industry in the time of coronavirus. Thanks to the, let me just give you a bit more information on this because I happen to know exactly how this conversation started. Our infinitely wise Prime Minister, Kiriakos Misotakis, had this idea of a vaccination passport. It turns out that he's not infinitely wise. He's simply a stooge of Ayata, the International Association of Alliance. They gave him the idea and the Netanyahu government. I have it on good authority that this is something that the Israeli government has been pushing for. And indeed, the first time that the vaccination passport was mentioned was when Misotakis, the Greek Prime Minister suggested it with a letter to Ursula from the line. And then a week later, Misotakis and Netanyahu signed an agreement to have a vaccination document allowing Israeli citizens to come into Greece with a vaccination certificate. So that we know what is going on. The reason why, I mean, our position, at least the position of our party in the Greek Parliament is clear. We are going in favor of vaccinations, the more the better, and the faster the better, and any delay in vaccinating people is creating circumstances for new strands of the virus to come up. Already, the EU's fiasco has imperiled millions of people because the more we delay, the more the mutations of the virus and the harder it will be to contain it. So we are completely in favor of a proper vaccination program, but we are adamant against a vaccination passport. And there are a number of reasons you did, not just the privacy issue, of course the privacy issue, because the moment you have any kind of certificate electronic or paper based, which you have to show as to what you put into your body and what's inside your body. And how can you stop employers from using it? How can you stop it from it being used? Not just regarding COVID-19, but COVID-20. I'm making it up. The next COVID, the next virus, the next bug, right? And then it's a very slippery slope because once you accept the concept of the vaccination passport, then it's just, you know, towards allowing corporations and allowing states to demand that citizens carry on them and share with anybody who asks them a completely medical record. It is just, you know, the thin edge of the wedge. And besides that, there is no evidence. I mean, I'm vaccinated and so is Rosemary amongst us. I don't know who else is. But there is no evidence that I am not a carrier that I cannot transmit it to other people. So what if I have a vaccination passport? I could, you know, go to Liberia and, you know, kill hundreds and thousands of people for all I know. Maybe I'm not a carrier, but we don't have the trials yet for that. There's some evidence that the Pfizer vaccine is working in this way, but we don't know that. But in any case, I think we should be very steadfast on that to the extent that medical records must never be produced at the behest of authority, whether it's private or public. We must fight against vaccination passports and ask, and that's how I finish you did. How do we help the tourist industries of the Southern Europe? We don't. It is really very simple. Stuff the tourist industry. We cannot have exceptions that jeopardize public health in order to save hotels and car rentals. Thank you, Claudia, and then Srećka. Yeah, thank you for that discussion. And as you all know, we have this article on our website with the vaccines for all and we're still growing the campaign, making plans and having the objective to raise awareness of the possibility to produce and distribute much larger quantity of the vaccines, because if the vaccine formula is shared and therefore decreases the pandemic's mortality rate within the EU and abroad, it's very important that we think also on the global south on that issue. And I'm very happy that some people of our press team are involved in this campaign starting. And we have just a presentation on the Green New Deal call before as Dujan know he invited us to explain a bit what we want to do and how we want to do and we hope that many people are willing to help us to to grow this very important campaign bigger because it's burning and we need to do it really fast in fact. So, because also there is a good idea, as Jan has always mentioned, how we can finance this problem because this is the same kind of financial problem we have with the climate, right? We need money for saving the people and the earth, and therefore it's very important that we work on that. So thank you for everybody who wants to join that. Thanks, Nadia. Love the cardboard cut out of Amy Winehouse. Srećko. Yeah, I wanted to add to this topic. When I hear waxing passport, it immediately smells of biopolitics. And you know that Giorgio Agamben, the Italian philosopher, well became a very controversial figure recently because of his texts on on COVID-19. Whatever you think about it, whether you agree with him or not, he still has a good point, I would say. I would go so far to say that for whatever reason 9-11 happened, whether it was an inside job or not, it doesn't matter what really matters is the kind of measures that were implemented after 9-11. And I think this is more or less Agamben's point also with COVID-19, although he at the beginning diminished, you know, the seriousness of the virus and so on. But we are really going into the direction of first class citizens, second class citizens, third class citizens, so to respond to you did. My big worry is not so much tourism. And I'm saying this from a country which has the one of the highest parts of the GDP, which goes for tourism in the world, namely Croatia, and is completely fucked without tourism. But my big worry is not tourism so much, but foreign labor, migrant workers, you know, what about them? You know, Germany needs around 300,000 seasonal workers each year to pick asparagus, strawberries and whatever, you know, you buy needle or spar or hofer or I don't know, I don't want to make further advertisement for all the shopping chains. What about these people? I have friends, relatives who travel to Germany have to pay 200 euros because they travel back and forth and so on and no one cares about them, you know. So in that sense, I don't care so much about, you know, the rich people from Britain or United States who will come to the beautiful paradise of the global south or southern Europe. I care more about the workers from Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Serbia and so on, who already have difficulties traveling. But that said, even though I find any vaccine passports suspicious and very close to biopolitics, I think there are serious problems we have to address. For instance, in this coordinating collective, we have a member that's me, who is in Croatia at the moment and we have another member who is in Serbia at the moment, Ivana. And Dushan, but Dushan is not there, I think, but anyhow, so if Ivana wants to travel from Serbia to Croatia, although she is hypothetically vaccinated, for instance, because Serbia got one million or almost two million doses from China. How do you, you know, how do you operate this system so that she doesn't have to make a test in Serbia and in Croatia and pay 200 euros, for instance. I understand what Yanis is saying, maybe there is no sufficient evidence that they are not transmitters and so on, but at one point this question will really become a question. And it is already a question. But as Claudia said, I think this is nothing compared to the problems the global south is facing, because 10 countries in the world have administered 75% of all the vaccines in the world, while we in Europe have these big problems, how we will travel from one country to the other country. So I think our focus should be foreign workers, migrant labor inside of the EU and global south, but slowly we should also think, what are the other ways, if there is no vaccine passport, maybe that's a question for Yanis, how to solve this problem so that people can travel easier, and you know, they are not discriminated on the border, and so on. So maybe that's a question we should deal with. Thanks, Srećko. Let's go to that Serbian member Ivana. Yeah, thanks. Well, since Srećko mentioned the amount of vaccines in Serbia, it might sound really cool, but it's very confusing here because there is one portion of Chinese vaccines, people are not sure from which circle of testing is it second. It was tested in Turkey first and then we got it. There is one portion of Russian vaccines and they're supposedly going to be manufactured in Belgrade. And then there is a word on the street that us from non EU countries will not be able to enter EU countries even though we were vaccinated with, for example, Chinese vaccines. So it's very confusing. And although the propaganda from our government looks very good. It also has some consequences and some, you know, you get some you lose some and the colonization of these countries of Serbia and the neighborhood is something very evident. And we are talking for example for and you mentioned Srećko 9th 11th. And I remember when the lockdown started, that we were saying in our beyond the balconies and PMTV that what happened with airports after 9th 11th will happen to the society to the whole world after these pandemics. One thing is implementing technological achievements for our protection. And the other thing is total surveillance, having passports of vaccines your personal health data exposed I mean what will be private if your health data is out there. And this is something that we should take care when you look at it Serbia implement I mean installed 3000 smart cameras from China before the lockdown. Now we will have Chinese vaccines and you know it's, it's the market. It's, I don't see this as a very good example of international collaboration, for example. So and I would recommend to everybody to watch the interview that Mekhan had last night for the MTV where Ricky is talking about all the myths and all the things that we as them should talk about and expose and the outburst in schools and so on and who how transmission is going on without us knowing about it. And tourism and vacations are sorry but first world problem. In my view. Thanks Ivana just talking there about our interview yesterday with grassroots activists fighting to eliminate COVID you can find that on our YouTube channel. Likewise if you're out there and you've got questions on this topic or other things that we're discussing please pop them in the chat. And I might read them out between the interventions stretcher. Just very quickly I mean even is completely right what she's saying I also heard from some friends in Serbia and we what what kind of concessions China or Russia is getting already either connected to the one belt one road or building factories in Boywood in a for instance, and so on. And that's a serious concern. But on the other side, if you look at UK for instance United Kingdom you can see the penetration of Silicon Valley companies like Palantir Peter Thiel, who is very close to the deep state in the United States into the So in that way, the health data in the so called developed West is already privatized it's already part of big tech. So I think we are in a situation where we have to choose you know whether you choose the Silicon Valley West penetrating privatizing your healthcare systems, or you will choose Chinese surveillance like your way or Russian gas, like in the in the case of Serbia and it's well, both choices are bad. I would say we have to find a third option we don't have it yet. If we had the non aligned movement where our countries were crucial. Maybe we would cooperate with Cuba now which is producing 100 at least they announced to produce 100 million doses of vaccine until the end of the year, and each tourist would probably also get vaccinated when they come to Cuba. But that's not our situation so I think we in the Balkans and I shut up here, have to confront our reality and deal with the geopolitics which actually already exists in our, in our close neighborhood which is China, Russia, United Arab Emirates and so on. And sometimes it's not necessarily worse than the EU. That's what I have to say. That's a question from the chat with the members of the panel support nation state or EU level mass purchases the Sputnik five vaccine to be used in EU member states should the EMA declare it medically safe to use the Russian developed vaccine. Anyone. Let me answer if I may. Not so much the specifics. Look, we are not a scientific committee here. We are a coordinating collective we're not going to start choosing and picking between different vaccines. The geopolitics of vaccination. We're always going to be very powerful, because we have a whole planet effectively on hold. So, you know, as if they're not going to use the geopolitical power that vaccines are providing, but we must, you know, not rush into, you know, related theories. I think that Occam's razor is the best guide here. In other words, let's keep it, keep it simple. There is no doubt that oops, have I frozen. No, I haven't. There is no doubt that governments are playing fast and loose with their geopolitics. The second one came out the other day, and dismissed AstraZeneca's vaccine, simply because he's playing a stupid little game on Brexit. And the result is that the French are not interested and a lot of the Germans don't want to take an AstraZeneca, because of the spat between AstraZeneca and Macron and Brussels, which has created, you know, information about one particular vaccine due to just politics, nothing more than that. Regarding the Chinese vaccines. Let's go. I have a view on Chinese geopolitical soft power peddling. They are a force to be reckoned with. And we have to be very, very skeptical of all power. Included, but judging by the, the, the, the Belt and Road Initiative and so on. And now their policy with vaccination. They're infinitely preferable to anything that the United States and the you have ever done. Their policies really very simple. We're giving you the vaccines for free. Okay. To carry favor to carry favor. No strings attached. That is the Chinese policy. In the same way that they went to Ethiopia in the year 2003 and built a whole new airport and a whole electrification network, as well as a telephony system for nothing. There were no strings attached. I know that. Of course, what happened later when they discovered some oil in the south of Ethiopia, right, Chinese companies were given preferential treatment, which is, you know, this is how they work. This is better or worse than the geopolitics of the United States and Silicon Valley. I don't think it's worse. But let's not get bogged down into comparing these things that's not be caught up in this kind of comparison. Now I'm just going to answer Ivana's point about, okay, we don't want vaccination passports what we want. I think that our position must be, after having thought about it a lot and talk to people and for me try to formulate matters policy on this. I need to ask for negative tests. For negative tests. Let's say for the next the last 72 hours with the addition of a rapid test at arrival on arrival. And why is this okay whereas vaccination passports is not okay. Well, because a negative test is a negative test. It doesn't ask you to produce evidence of what's inside of you. It's a test that shows that something is not inside you, and it is transient. It is useless two weeks later, three weeks later. So, you know, even if it goes on your record, and it's in some server in Silicon Silicon Valley, who gives it down whether you were negative, you know, on the 23rd of April 2020. Whereas a snapshot of what's inside of you on the 23rd of April 2020 is a huge importance to companies to the big med. Okay, that's why this is my answer to you. If governments want to expedite travel by asking for a negative test, or a twin one, a molecular one 72 hours before the the travel date and a rapid test on arrival. We are happy with that, but no vaccination records. Thank you. Anyone else any closing comments we're already a few minutes over. You just have to be rather careful with the type of negative tests that you go for, because in the UK there's been this huge controversy around lateral flow tests, which are being rolled out everywhere in schools and everywhere else. And you can get the results back in half an hour, but the proportion of negative tests are actually false is high. Yeah, that's why I said molecular test 72 hours before with a rapid test as an add on. Yes, because the type one and type two errors in the rapid tests that you mentioned are not symmetric. So the chances of you coming up positive and not being positive are very small. Yes, coming up negative while your positive are very high indeed. So we ended up like we ended up like a scientific committee in the end. If somebody told us one year ago or two years ago the coordinating collective of the end would be talking about type this type that has rapid test vaccine and so on you will say you are mad. But yeah, it was forced me to remember something that I had conveniently forgotten that back in 1981, I had a degree in bio statistics from Birmingham University and I did all that. And you know what I had forgotten about it. I had tucked it away in some crevice of my mind and it had gone. And now I was reminded. It just took a pandemic to bring it back. Okay, let's move on to the last topic we have with us here. Dushan who is the coordinator of our Green New Deal for Europe campaign the umbrella package of radical proposals that we've gotten a variety of different areas he's going to give us a brief if you can Dushan, please update, because we've just got a couple of minutes left about what's happening with the campaign and what's been going on recently. Yes, of course, my friend and thank you. It's basically my honor, first of all, to present you green new deal for Europe 2.0 as I, as I call it. We reestablished the structure we created the new coordination team, and now green new deal 2.0 will be presented as it is the real deal, opposed to the green deal of European Union which is neither new or green, as we all know. Additionally, DMs Green New Deal is the only workers friendly green solution for Europe. And our campaign will be, sorry, will be international but heavily localized, meaning DSCs are going to be our core units, and that we will be focused on change as it should be. And we will not be afraid to be too radical. So please keep both eyes on our social media in the upcoming weeks, because we are going for a big relaunch. We will show you how we will tackle social environmental and climate problems, and we are also going to need your help so we are counting on you comrades. Basically, we are still in time to realize that we cannot count on prototypical politicians and so called green initiatives that prove to be only cosmetic in their nature. Only by integrating grassroots activism civil disobedience and so on with the fights in parliaments across Europe, we can build a better future for humans, animals and dirt itself. And that's what we will be focusing on in the upcoming time. The Green New Deal is already hands in hands with other DM campaigns like People's Gathering and Campaign Accelerator, and I'm sure our volunteers will be, as I said before, the core units of our campaign. We really need to push this because this is one of the most urgent issues currently for the planet, and we don't have the option to be. Wonderful, exciting times. I think we will close it there, the live stream part of our meeting to you out there. Thank you for watching. And see you next week, same time, same place.