 Okay, so the meeting is recording. Hey, good afternoon everyone hope you're having a good week so let's start with the minutes from last week. I'm hoping all reviewed so get right into voting. Anyone want to make a motion. I move we accept the minutes from last week. Thank you. I'm happy to second. Okay, and by voice vote. Please make sure you unmute yourself. Allison. Yes. Selman. Yes. Goldner. Yes. Drucker. Yes. Roof. Abstain by reason of absence. Gregavan. Yes. D. Yes. Okay. The minutes are approved. And Steve, are you taking the minutes this time? It was green last time. I can pull up. Oh, yeah, Steve, it's you. Welcome back. Thanks Steve. Right. So let's. If you're good with that. Sorry. Yeah. Okay. All right. We'll want to public comments. Do you see anybody? No, if anyone from the public is interested in making a comment, please electronically raise your hand. And I'll unmute you. Okay. There are no comments. Okay. So it should be a very short agenda today. Like I mentioned, Dwayne is not going to be able to call in. So his agenda item will move on to the following meeting. And then Anna, you talked about the capital inventory memo and you need more time. So let's move that to the next meeting. With that, I'll move on to Stephanie work for staff updates. Okay, but so I do want to say that I can give a very brief solar by law working group update. I talked to Dwayne and he asked me to so. Okay. I staff that committee. So I'm, I can give a very brief update. There's not a whole lot. Okay. Okay. So my updates. I just, I sent a link. To everybody just before the meeting with. A recording from a presentation that green energy consumers did about the climate bill. They did a webinar presentation this morning or this afternoon. It was like an hour long, but they included their slide deck. And it was a really wonderful summary of. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the provisions in the bill. And also with a link for everybody to call the governor. So if you haven't done so yet, please do. He only has till tomorrow. Andrew's not here today. So I'm going to. I'm going to push this on her behalf. So please, please do call it literally takes less than a minute. And you can leave a message. One thing that can I, can I add something about that? I think I made my phone call is that apparently the, there was a report. It's not clear whether it's correct or not, but there was a report that the governor is completely concerned. About the 10 towns that have a home rule. Petition or a stretch code in place. I'm not quite sure which to, where they're trying to. I think they're connected where they're trying to allow, not permit gas hookups on new only electric on new builds. And apparently that's what he's most concerned about, which is sad because that's something we should all be pushing for. And it gets directly in our way as we try to make changes, right? As we try to move forward. So I left a message telling him to get out of our way, which sort of said the same thing. But yeah, so. That's at least what building, um, electrification accelerator folks are circulating. Yes. Yeah, I should have mentioned that. Thanks, Lori. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Lori. So this is the meeting that you went to, uh, last week, right? The building electrification. I'm going to start participating in that. And the, but, but this note just came across my desk. I was out bicycling all day. I got back in the last half hour, read all my email and that was there. So, um, they just sent that out sometime today. Um, that that was apparently the issue. Okay. And that's the update. Yeah. Everybody, if you could please call. Um, and then as far as the solar assessment, I wanted to give a quick update that we did not receive any. Applications, but only because we've had to extend. The, the time period for proposals, because a few firms that were interested. Contacted the town and let us know that they didn't feel like they had enough time to pull something together. They'd only had two weeks, which I thought was pretty tight. So, um, this isn't unusual. So we extended the application period for another two weeks. And there are two, possibly three firms that I think may submit proposals. And one of them, I think is. That is considering it. I don't know if they will, but they're the ones that are doing the entire statewide solar assessment. So I am so hopeful that they put their hat in the ring for this because that would be just fantastic. To have them. But I don't know. I mean. They'd be, you know, they'd be like halfway, if not more than three quarters of the way and understanding what we're trying to do. So. Yeah. Um, so I'm hopeful. So that's another two weeks, which I think means. Um, I think the week of. Either, I'm sorry, it's either the 29th or the 5th. September 5th that they'll be due. So when we get them, then we'll be reviewing proposals. Um, and we'll let you know how many and we'll give you an update. At that point. Um, Empower grant update. We actually are working on the contract with, um, family outreach of Amherst. We had a few things we need to sort of iron out. Still, I had a meeting with, um, Laura Reichman from family outreach. Um, she said the, you know, realistically they're really not going to be able to do anything until people's children go back to school. So the fact that this has taken us a little time over the time is that they're not going to be able to get any kind of guidance. I'm not going to get any kind of guidance on the, um, I don't want to get any kind of guidance on their side, because people aren't going to really be available until their kids are in school during the day time for them to do the outreach. So. Uh, that is moving forward though. Um, there are. As you know, green communities opportunities coming up. The applications do in October. Um, I've had some communication with a few departments in town that I've had some communication with the facilities manager about some building projects as well. So I'm going to be looking at those and trying to sort of see what we will be moving forward. We're capped at a request for $200,000. And I'm being particularly cautious because. Um, Once a community reaches $750,000 in grant funding. Through green communities. Um, you're limited in your round past that, that amount to $100,000 currently. So we can request $200,000 in funding this time. But this may be the last time that we can request the maximum. We may then be limited to a hundred thousand in the next round. There is an option for, um, $500,000 in funding. And that would be $500,000 in funding. It would be good for two years. But again, um, you wouldn't be able to apply for two years, which projects typically last two years anyway. So, um, I don't know that we're quite ready for that yet because I think there's going to be information, specific information that we need, but, um, You know, I know that right now the town is looking at months and library is maybe like our first decarbonization project, but I don't know that we would. I think that we would be able to, um, I think that we would be able to use that funding for that project. I think we might be able to, with green communities funding and some others pull that off. It doesn't, it wouldn't require the full 500,000 from green communities. I wouldn't want to limit us in that regard for that one project. Um, because I think there may be others that we want to look to decarbonize that might cost more. And we might want to use that funding for a future. Effort building effort. Also the mass evip grant opportunities. I know you talked about a few grants, right? Is there. Can we have the opportunity to look at the grant and also the carp and help guide the town on where money is being spent? Um, sure. Um, I mean, ultimately anything that I do goes through the town manager. So, I mean, he's the ultimate authority of what we move forward on. So, um, I think that's partly what you and I were going to work on. So I can't. In all honesty, it doesn't help me to just send you things and wait to have you weigh in. Like if you and I want to work on that. Um, outreach together. And I know I just haven't gotten the. Go ahead from the town manager yet. He hasn't said. He's on board with what I sent him from Sean and I that Sean McGonnell and I worked on. So. I'm waiting on that before I can meet with you to sort of create our own kind of plan. But it becomes a bit random. If I just do it that way. I don't know how to, um, I would rather have us have like a laid out plan. Um, these are projects that are. That have been identified for the town and the town is moving forward anyway. So I'm just trying to get us to move forward what we're already working on with some funding. Does that make sense? Yeah, I know I think that's fair. I think the future grants. I know Stella last time, you know, the transportation party brought up a few grants that. I think they were federal. Grants mostly. And just want to make sure that we're looking at all the grants that we're possibly getting and then identify. Actions in the car that we can drive. And help guide the town. Yes. And we're aware the federal grants that Stella identified are things we're aware of. And as well as the state grants, like the evip. Um, and the. More EV. You know, we're aware of those two and we've used them. Like I've, I've used those programs in particular. We've had more luck with state programs than we have with federal funding. To be honest, sometimes. On the Amherst website. On the Amherst website, can I go and look at what grants were approved and how much. Um, I don't know that we've had them just kind of listed like that. But I think that this might be a conversation to have. Like, I really think what you and I are meeting to do. Or hoping to do and trying to do. Makes the most sense. In terms of having that Excel spreadsheet. But I don't think we have our, we don't necessarily have our grant funding just kind of like. There's a list that just lists everything that we're working on. But I think that the, like I said, the chart that we're trying to develop, I think would be helpful. I'm just. I haven't had. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. The go ahead yet. I will say the town manager has been out of the office quite a bit in the last month or so. So. Um, he's been in, but it bits and, you know. Days at a time. Um, he's been out. For parts of a week too. So I think he is always playing catch up. Okay. So. Um, but that's it. Thanks, Stephanie. Always appreciate it with what you do. Any, any questions for Stephanie. Okay. Any member updates? Um, none. I did have a question for Stephanie. Just wondering like how the solar working group meetings are going. Are they getting attended by the public. Are. Sort of what's happening there. And how often are they meeting and stuff. Do you want me to say that for the. Update. Okay. Sorry. No, that was the solar assessment I was talking about. So I can talk about the working group. Later. Anna, did you have anything? Hi, sorry. Um, I will always talk if invited to talk. Um, nothing major. And I apologize that it's been a delay on my part. In getting, um, getting meetings that was Stephanie. A couple of things that are coming up and one that. I just wanted to, um, I just wanted to, um, ECAC may want to consider sort of re-looking at our agenda for Monday includes the zero waste plan. Um, and starting to get into work on that. This is something that. From my understanding of it. ECAC voted in support of. But there was never actually a plan proposed to council before. So. Um, I don't know if it was just voting. That you liked the concept of this or what, but. Okay. Thank you, Steve. I saw a Steve, not. I can only see four of you, but I saw Steve not. Um, and so. This might be something that you would like to look at again and vote to support again now that it's actually a tangible bylaw. Um, the way that it's going to work. Please don't quote me on this in ink. But my understanding is that. And the board of health is who actually oversees the regulations about refuse. And so they will be the ones who. Uh, will write and approve the actual regulations. So. This is going to be, it's not in the packet yet. So I can't send it. I don't have anything to send you, but it will be in the town council packet for the 15th. Um, that's when we're going to discuss it. It will be referred to the town services and outreach committee. With consultation with finance. So it's something that. Um, I'm just going to go back to that. So. If you feel that it's appropriate as chair for ECAC to review and vote to support or. Not vote or vote not to support. I guess those are kind of your three options. Um, feel free to, to do that. And either way, feel free to look it over. Uh, essentially the proposal is that the town would contract with a trash hauler. Um, and folks would opt in. And then it would also include, uh, composting beyond just backyard scraps. Um, and then it would also include, um, Um, And then it would include composting one thing too. That's coming up on the council agenda on Monday is a new policy on street lights. This is less direct to ECAC, but everything tends to come back to climate action. So, um, there's definitely some, some things to consider here from, from that angle. Um, we've already done a lot of work to switch our street lights to LEDs away from the sodium. So, um, So, um, there's some slight implications there. Um, and again, if this is something that ECAC has thoughts or feelings about, uh, it is the actual regulation should be in the packet. I have to finish the slide show, but that'll also be in the, in the town council packet. And I think that's, um, that's that. And I see questions, but Vossy, I will let you call on people. Yeah. Lori and then Stephen. Um, yeah. So, um, I just have a question. I want a clarification on the zero waste thing. So we're being asked to consider a bylaw and vote to support it, but we haven't seen the text of the bylaw yet. So are you asking for a vote at a later date? Oh, not right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At a later date. I haven't seen it either. So, um, we don't, we don't have it yet. The sponsors have not submitted it. Um, I just won't see you all before the council meeting on Monday. So this would be at a later date. It's going to be in TSO for a while for a while. Cause everything takes a while. So you've got some time, but I think it's, it's a potential future agenda item. Should your chair or you all decide that you would like to, um, vote on it and that the last vote wasn't. Enough that you want to do it again. So that's definitely if it's going to, if the text will be released this week, we should definitely put it on the agenda for our next meeting then Vossy. Yeah. No, I agree. We wanted on the concept. I want to say six months ago at least. And I know it's an. Yeah, it was a while back. It's an action in the car. So I think it makes perfect. Great. Stephanie. Okay. Hi, Anna. Um, hi. You mentioned the high pressure sodium. Uh, streetlight retrofit. Yeah. So is this in addition to what was already done? Because we, when we got our first green community grant, that was our first project. We did like close to half a million dollars in. Retrofitting the street lights. So yeah, what I was saying is that we have already done that. So this is less focused on that. Um, this isn't, uh, it, this is. When I was thinking about the energy implications for street lights, I was just noting that we've already done most of that. The street lights into L. Ed's is my understanding and that that's continue that continues as we. As they die, we replace them with L. So, um, that's less. So the plan, the plan is much more about. Uh, placement. And, um, Less placement of them. Okay. In places where they don't need to be. And the one thing that we were not successful with, and I don't know how the council can help with this, but the utility would not change their, they wouldn't retrofit their street lights. To LEDs. And it's been kind of an ongoing, um, issue. So just putting that out there. If it's about. Oh, that's good to know. Yeah. I know that we've, we were trying to navigate the difference between town owned and utility owned. Um, and I'm right now. The proposal that we have written is only going to apply to town owned street lights in the public way as well. So it won't be like rec fields and stuff like that yet. Um, the goal is eventually to get there. But it's really, um, this is like. A lot the, you know, the dark skies initiative and, and along those lines. Um, so I don't think that we. I mean. As you know, I don't think we can tell the utility, but. Um, That's, it might be another opportunity to apply that pressure though, for sure. And we can certainly try. I don't know if there are any other. Questions or if that, I don't, Stephanie, that didn't really answer your question, but I can definitely try. Nope. That was, that was fine. But I have information about what was done. If you need it. So. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I'll reach out for sure. I don't think so. I think that is, that's pretty much it. From, from my end, I don't know if Steve has any thoughts on where things are with the rental registration. It's the only other. Thing that's really, I don't know. I don't know if he has any thoughts on where things are with the rental registration. It's the only other. Thing that's really on my radar. In terms of what's coming up for the council. But other than that, I'm good. Thank you all. Thanks. All right. Laurie with the heat pump strategies up there. Yeah, I don't remember exactly what, if anything I promised to do, but I have continued to work on this. I mean, I, so just in the way of an update, I, I've continued to update the spreadsheet that I started last time. So I think that's almost ready just to, I mean, if anyone wants to distribute it to someone who might find it useful, please do remember it's a listing of funding for businesses and landlords, funding sources, rebates, incentives that might be useful to them through both mass saves and lots of other places. And so I've been continuing to compile that. But at the same time, there's sort of been an interesting development in my neighborhood. So I'm starting to also compile something that I think will be useful for a single family residents. So someone sent an email, anyone else here in Echo Hill? Someone sent an email to Echo Hill North. Mutual aid group asking for input on how to put it, how to get a heat pump installed. And they immediately brought up their email unbeknownst to them, brought up a sticky point, which is they're trying to do it in a ducted system, which doesn't really work for decarbonization. So I wrote a note back saying I would be willing to, you know, talk to them about it. And immediately there are 12 more people who wanted to know about this. So I basically sent the blast out to the neighborhood saying, I'm happy to put together a little presentation or just talk to people about it. And I think there was some, some demand for a presentation. So at least in my neighborhood, I might start putting something together, which I'd then be happy to take on the road. If other neighborhoods want. Actually, I'm glad you're doing that. And I wonder if I know you and Shalini have your district five meeting. I'm not sure if the other counselors have the same meetings as well in their districts. And I wonder if this is something that we could do to continue to educate the community. I think Laura had something had also had an experience with this and maybe the two of us could even get together and put our minds together, come up with something to folks. Yeah, I just question. I didn't understand what you said. So they said they couldn't do it with a ducted system. Yeah. So there's a problem if you, if you're, so this is, this is the problem I ran into immediately. And the reason I still haven't done anything other than research. I have a very nice ducted furnace. Right. And I thought, oh, we'll just pop a heat pump in there. It's all done. Right. Well, it turns out that ducted heat pumps are not very efficient. They can't work. They don't work well below 40 Fahrenheit. Some companies will tell you 20, but I think the reality is that if you use them down to 20 Fahrenheit, you will be spending an arm and a leg on radiative heating. Oh, sorry. Duck did means that there's ducks that go around your house. Right. Forced air furnace. So this is not true because I just did replace my forced air furnace with the heat pump. Have you used it in the winter yet? Yes. And then where did it switch over? What's your backup heat? Back up heat is an electric heat exchanger. And at what temperature does it switch? Do you know? I do not know. But I used less. I've used less electricity. So what are you using before that? My house in March. Right. But what was your previous heat source? Oil. Okay. And he and space heaters. Oh, of course. Right. Yeah. Well, no, not of course, because I had oil. And supplementary space heaters. Right. And then I replaced all of that with. I used less electricity and no oil. Right. The problem is that in my neighborhood, we mostly heat with natural gas or methane. So my heating bills are very, very low. And every estimate I've seen, I haven't heard from block power yet, but every estimate I've seen says that my costs are going to go way to heck up. If I were to put an inducted system with a heat pump. So, but I think the confusion. So I think this is why we need to be really careful about like putting out information because that's different than a ducted heat pump doesn't work. That's a different. Right. In his situation, it wouldn't work. So, so it wouldn't, it depends what he wants to do. If he just wants to replace an air conditioner, it's fine. So yes, we need to work through each of these. This is why it takes. This is why it takes so dang long. Every house is different, right? And I'm no expert yet anyway. And, and, but I can tell people where the pitfalls are going to be because the H back companies won't tell you these things. They'll happily spec up a ducted system for you and then, and then not, and then you have to poke them a little to realize that it switches at 40 Fahrenheit and why would I want to do that? Because then I'm back just back to using methane at 40 Fahrenheit. It's a hybrid. It'll be a hybrid system in my case. Or if I push to electric, I'm going to be paying all electric. I'll be paying way more. So it's, it's quite a difficult thing to do. And it requires a conversation. I'm not sure putting together. A presentation is the right thing to do. I think that has to be a bunch of conversations with people to sort of compile what we've learned. And have a back and forth. And then send people to mass. There's also a talk next week, I think. On pumps. Somebody at UMass is speaking. Yeah. And this is by the local energy advocate. So I think there might be some connection that we can make and understand a little bit more. Yeah. I mean, I think we're, we're not agreeing on certain things. I think, I mean, if we're not, then I think there's opportunity. We're agreeing. Lots of different situations. Yeah. The messaging needs to be right. If we decide to go to one of these district meetings and. Have a conversation. Yeah. And the most important thing is where folks to call mass saves and talk to a consultant there because you tell them your issues and they will give you a solution. Yeah. Yeah. So I was, I, that's how I finally figured out what the right thing to do for my house is not by talking to local HVAC people, but by talking to someone at mass age. They're very, very useful. So there's a lot of different pieces that have to fit together. Yeah. At some point when we're ready, I think we should possibly talk to Anna and see if we can get into these district meetings and have a conversation to educate the community. Yeah. Hi, Lori. I don't know if this helps at all, but. It's sort of different. My wife and I are in the process of putting. A geothermal system in our house. However, it also is a bit of a hybrid because. We have a water system, a baseboard hot water system. And it turns out that the baseboards on our, in our second story are not. There are not enough of them and they're not efficient enough to heat the second story. So we've got, we've got a ground source heat, heat pump that's going to be in our attic that is going to be heating and cooling the second story with a, an air, you know, air heat and air cool. And then the first floor is going to have a geothermal. Water system. It's, it's quite complicated. And yeah, and we've been through all sorts of possible alliterations on that. Who's doing your, who's doing your geothermal? Just out of curiosity. Western mass heating and cooling. Nice. And they've been really good. They've been really good about. About, you know, the various programs available for us. They've been very good about. They apparently are very good about keeping their ear to what's going on because one of the issues was of course, the $25,000 limit on, on an interest free loan. For a mass save, which they're considering upping significantly because these projects are more. So there's a lot going on, which, which we are dealing with on a daily basis. So yeah, I'm happy to throw that into the mix. If it helps at all. I realize that. Geothermal requires an ability to get a big well. Driller in there. And in our case, three wells, but yeah. And folks need to be careful too, because for example, I know dandelion energy has been advertising everywhere. And at one of the meetings I was at, somebody was all excited about this. They do geothermal, but they're not on the list of approved heat pump installers. So they will not be eligible for any financing or rebates if they go with them. And they're also saying things that don't make sense. Like you don't need the big rig. You can use a smaller one, which my understanding is won't work in West, most places in Western mass because of the rock. Because of what we're built on. So yeah, and a lot of, a lot of houses, geothermal isn't an option because like at my house, you can't get a rig in anywhere. There's just nowhere to do it. So yeah, so it's, it's really complicated as well. I mean, I've been at this since November and I've been through geothermal, I've been through, yeah. Perfect segue into the next topic lessons learned, right? And Laura, you had your hand raised. Yeah, I mean, I think this is just, you know, like I think we need to think about what you can do and how we can like avoid the spreading of misinformation. You know, I think there's a thin line between like sharing stories and then also potentially facilitating. So I really liked your point, Lori, about like, first thing you should do is call mass save, like calm ass save. And these are the questions you need to ask them. And then if you're not getting the answer. And then maybe it's, it's, you know, I could see us in community talking about what's worked for different folks, but like always taking it back to like, you need to talk to mass save. And if mass save is not. I think it's important to recognize that there's limitations in mass save as ecac, you know, we could reach out to Joe or Mindy or other folks and help bring those voices together. But I think we want to not be like, come to ecac for HVAC advice. Like that seems like not our role. But, but we can put point people in the right direction, right? I agree. And I think there's this real call for this. People really want to do this, but they're being stymied by things. They don't understand details that come up. You know, they get told different things by different contractors and they don't know what's right. And they just need a little bit of direction and a little bit of information. I think knowing things like, you know, ducted systems are more or less efficient than mini splits. But depending on what your heat source you're coming from, it might be knowing basic stuff that I didn't know going into this. I didn't know ducted systems were less efficient. So, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting. Depends where you're going, where your house is now, where your units are, you know, where you are now and where you want to go. And we're not experts in that. But I think it does make sense for us to reach out a little bit and just talk to people because we're thinking about this. So I mean, this happened sort of organically in my case. I'm not sure I have time to go out on a mission to, you know, tell everybody in Amherst, but I could certainly make, you know, what I've learned available and maybe put something together over time. Yeah, I guess the ultimate is also to get massive to see if they have some time to talk to us. Talk to a few contractors and talk to massive. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in the era and age of zoom, we could also just put together a recorded meeting of information and make that available on the town's website. So there's, there's ways of doing this that doesn't require you to be everywhere. Mass safe to put something together for us, you know, with different examples, I think they do this actually different examples. Let me connect with them. I'll take that as an action. Thank you. Laura lessons to learn. Need phones. Is that enough said. Yeah, no, I, I know, I think I was supposed to write it down and I didn't have time to do that. I'm sorry. But yeah, I mean, I think I'm not sure how helpful that will be because each case is different. So maybe we can collect. People's stories. You know, happy to provide my story as part of that. Done like done has a story where you have a story. But, but yeah, so I just haven't done it yet. Okay. Okay. Yeah, and I think like we, we talked about, I don't think we needed it at this point or so we'll. Let me, let me connect with massive. Let me connect with a few other contractors and see if there's they're willing to have a conversation with us to educate the community. But we have this forum, we have the district meetings. And we're going to upload those videos and the, on the Amherst website. Thank you. Done. Yes. I'm just going to say really quick too. Besides putting them on website. We also have Amherst media where we could do a program. With them. They'd probably be interested in doing something like that. So adding that to the mix as well. That can be really fun. And again, it's not something I think we would have to do. I think we would just need to organize something with mass saves and maybe a few examples that we want them to cover. Yeah. Well, and you could be, I mean, but you could be part of it. It's, you know, those, if you do a half hour program. With information interviewing mass save and maybe asking them, you interview them with the questions and share your experience. That's a half hour of really great information for residents. Yep. Definitely. Okay. Go on to the next topic. See face. Yeah, hi. So I, I, I managed to put a couple of hours, maybe two and a half hours of kind of research in just so that I could kind of understand exactly what the program is. I intended to do more. But I'll give you an overview of what I've done. I intended to do more, but my daughter, who was seven months pregnant, got COVID and then gave birth. And to 32 week old baby, who's fine. She happened to be very large, but my last week has been an absolute zoo and, and my wife is actually in Boston now because my daughter can't touch her baby because she's isolated in a COVID ward. So my wife is the one going in holding the baby at feeding times. So I apologize, but I did get glad the baby. She's fine. It's my daughter's fourth daughter. And, and they're all fine. It just created a stir from last Thursday. That is ongoing. In fact, I've got to pick up my daughter at the hospital tomorrow and bring her home to marble head. She still can't see her baby until Sunday. But in any event, sorry for the long story. But I did as in as much as I'm a lawyer kind of start at the beginning and, and delved into the enabling legislation, enabling the establishment of the Massachusetts pace program. It is a joint program with DOR and the mass development finance agency. And there's actually a ton of material, very detailed material online, including, you know, the application, a whole discussion of the various, I mean, it's 110 page fact sheet with an application put in. It's mostly technical appendices and about four pages at the beginning. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's basically a program that allows a 20 year, pretty much a 20 year repayment of a loan. For three different types of projects. What they call energy consumption reduction projects, which I think we call retrofits, then renewable energy improvement projects. And they also stuck in a gas line extensions, which I didn't spend a lot of time taking a look at, because they are also eligible to participate in the program. So, you know, you guys don't need the enabling legislation is, is pretty, pretty clear. It basically the advantages of participating in the program as best as I can tell is, is one there's a whole system set up with mass development finance agency, assisting you in obtaining the financing from wherever they obtain the financing. And I've dealt with them before in affordable housing projects and in other projects, but because they do more than just this, but it allows for a 20 year repayment. And to make it even easier. It's a betterment assessment on the property. So the, the loan is repaid by taxes over the 20 years and and that makes it easy because it is basically an obligation of the property. So if the owner sells the property that obligation goes with the property. It, it seems as I get into this more that there is a lot of potential there. If, you know, again, again with the retrofits as I take a look at it it's always a function. I mean, for developers and owners of multifamily housing it's always a function of what makes the most sense financially for them as that is that can be sometimes. And I think, you know, when you've got a project, especially a residential project where tenants are paying the heating bills. And the incentive to take on a big loan on your projects to do the kind of retrofitting that we're talking about. And paying it off and increase taxes somewhere along the line that the tenants going to get dinged. I mean I can, I know it. No matter how you want to look at it that they are they are not going to developers are not going to pay more property taxes and not pass on that cost in some way shape or form. So, you know, especially in the residential area. I think it's a wonderful program I don't know how it would work practically and I'm delighted to keep digging in more. I think it's, it's a program that's got a lot of potential. And I'm happy to answer any questions if I can. From the research that I did. Sorry. Yeah, it's funny Don I actually added it to the table yesterday and was reading through some of those documents. And I have two notes. I think that I wanted to note that this is a better, it seemed to me a much better financing option than something like block power, which offers a lease. Right. It's a different, different mechanism. So which might be why block power doesn't do much work in Massachusetts in the end. I don't know if that's right or not, but any rate it seems like a better financing option and it is as much money as is needed, as far as I can tell there's no limit. Right. I mean, yeah, it's, it's like any commercial loan on on one level. It's just the state has put together this program to incentivize these sorts of, of projects. And the other thing is mass development finance agency, they get their money from somebody else. I mean, and I also want to be clear it's not like you're getting tremendously favorable interest rates. That's that's not the case either the money's on the market somewhere that they're getting, they're getting the money from. So there's that issue too. I think there's something in there about it about favorable interest rates, especially for affordable I don't remember I might be getting programs mixed up. But the other thing I wanted to mention is I think that the gas line extension stuff might be out in the new climate bill does anyone know for sure. That might be one of the I seem to remember hearing something about this climate bill getting rid of some of that. I'm not sure, but it would be nice if went away. Yeah, so, so Don, what do you think should be the next steps I think you brought up the concern about raise raising costs rental properties right and impacting low income community I think that's important aspect to consider. It's a good program but it might not have the benefit that we want the low income communities to see. Right, at least, at least, so at least not in the residential market, the multifamily residential market, I don't know. But, but, and certainly developers who are, you know, who have, I mean they're not that many of them in Amherst, but if you have apartment buildings I would think where, where the landlord is paying for the heat or paying for the HVAC costs, it could be something but for the, the run of the mill for family or five family rental properties. I don't see it, but for commercial properties I think it's, it's, it's got a lot of potential. I wonder if we can. I don't know when this law was passed, but I just wonder if we can look at what the other communities are doing Don, if there's any data that I don't know Stephanie that you might know. It would be an opportunity for us to just see and make sure that it's not impacting communities, or what they're doing to mitigate some of these issues. There is at least one of these programs that I added yesterday that has a requirement, it's favorable financing similar. I think it's more of a loan rather than a tax, but it rather than showing up on a tax bill but at least one of them and maybe more than one of them requires the residents of the units to see a benefit. I think it's for affordable housing specifically and I don't remember where I saw that but it could have been the mass housing partnership with green and healthy housing or it could have been the Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac green. They also have mortgages that they offer for refinancing for green improvements. So, there are other options for specifically dealing with low income housing, and making sure that the residency benefit. I noticed that I was looking at what Northampton and Hanley their ECAC committees do and I actually saw your name is one of the agenda items that I don't know if you're part of any of the other towns. You know, conversation that you've had outside of Northampton or, you know, other rest and mass towns. I just wanted to see how we can learn from some of the other towns in Massachusetts as well. Well, so they invited me to speak about the effort that Steve has been working on and I have been working on about some kind of energy efficiency disclosure rating system or so Steve was away but I had invited him to speak with me but he couldn't be there. So I did. We could certainly invite them to talk about some of the programming that they're doing. That's fine. We can reciprocate. We all learn from each other for sure. So, happy to reach out to them if you have a specific subject you want me to ask them to come speak on, we could do that. Yeah, well no I want to talk specifically about see face and I don't think Northampton is implemented that program either so it might be looking at towns near Boston. Greenfield, so I could invite Carol Collins, because the city of Greenfield did they were the first see past see pace project in the state of Massachusetts, and I would be happy to ask Carol if she's available to just speak to us about that some some night and that's easy for me to do. That worked on. Yeah, I, yeah, I, I did. I saw a mention of that Stephanie was that a commercial project and not a residential project. Yeah, we'll leave it's commercial. Yeah. Great. Yeah, thanks Stephanie. Sure. Do you want that to try for the next agenda I can't guarantee but we have transportation on our next agenda. And then we got to work on the zero waste. I'm just looking at everything else we have. I think that should be fine. If you can. Okay, she may not be available but I'll ask. Okay, thank you. Sure. Stephanie I'll turn it over to you for the solar bylaw working group update. Sure. So, I just pulled up the agenda from that last meeting so when Dwayne reported out last time he said that they were looking at three solar bylaw guides in particular. One was from the Cape Cod Commission, one was from Mass DOER and they had reviewed to those two at the previous meeting. At the last meeting, one of the members reviewed the Pioneer Valley Planning Commission's guide to developing solar bylaws. There's as much more voluminous. It's very, there's a lot to it. And so they, they kind of went through that just a very quick overview. And then one of the members had provided some of the more recent land court rulings on solar. And then what was identified was that the, the cases were in most cases they were being told that they couldn't cite solar or have a bias towards solar. Unless it had something to do with the health and safety of the population. But that was, that was kind of the restriction for having, you know, for voting down a solar project had had to be specifically in relation to whether or not it had to do with the health and safety. So, they just talked about some of those more recent land court ruling decisions. And then they had the towns GIS specialist come in and give a presentation on how to use the town's mapping system so that they could navigate looking at different GIS layers. Can I ask a question for clarification on what you said about, in most cases, could not have a bias for solar unless it was for the health and safety or could not. I'm sorry they couldn't wrote they couldn't vote against a project. Unless it was for health unless it was for health and safety. Gotcha. I'm sorry yeah I didn't articulate that well I'm sorry. And then they looked at a work timeline that Dwayne had drafted and they gave some feedback on that. I think he's going to update that for the next meeting. And then we just gave a solar assessment update. One of the things that came out of that meeting was that they would like to invite a representative legal console from KP law which is the town's legal council to talk about some of those more recent land court rulings and kind of where the, where our legal representation sort of stands and what their interpretation of those recent court cases is. So, and our, so they're, they're going to be scheduled for future meeting we're just connecting with them, Chris Breistrup and I are connecting with them on Friday and just to sort of give them a quick overview of the kinds of things that the, the working group has been looking at and what they're interested in information they're interested in getting from legal council. And that's pretty much it they haven't gotten into any writing yet they're still looking at models and and trying to sort of get a sense of, you know, what Amherst will be looking to I think they're just trying to find out what the framework is they're looking to start with a framework as well. So, and they don't meet they're not right now. Laura, in answer to your question. They're meeting every couple of weeks but it's not necessarily exactly every two weeks and right now it's being scheduled meeting to meeting. We may get into something that's a little more regular once the academic year starts but I know we're meeting at noon. We've had public attendance in fact we had 10 people I think at the last meeting. So people are definitely attending those meetings. And that's the work that they've been covering so far. They're really just I think right now, trying to define their work timeline, and sort of lay out what their, what points are going to be trying to meet and we have had the planning staff have started to look at just putting the bare bones of what might go into an RFQ to find someone to help with the technical piece of developing the solar bylaw and that's really the technical pieces things like addressing battery storage and citing battery storage. And I see that there are two people with questions. Don and see. I'll be really quick. If anybody's really interested and I think you got to copy Stephanie way back when the whole moratorium issue was floating around this committee. Michael pill who, who I don't often agree with and have been on a number of matters with him where we've been on different sides of things, at least sent, I believe you Stephanie and certainly me a fairly comprehensive look at these court cases, if anybody just kind of wants to access that and pull some of those cases out and look at it just for your own edification. Because those are the same cases I think that that our town council. Sorry, our town lawyer council will be will be addressing. I can take those up and forward those to folks if that would be helpful. Yeah, I wanted to mention that the next meeting of that group is tomorrow at noon, tomorrow at noon, and I'm, I think I'm just looking at the agenda now they're going to do overview of land use and mapping and Amherst and review of the Massachusetts decarbonization roadmap. And again work plan and timeline, and a few other things but that should be a good interesting meeting tomorrow at noon. Yes, Stephanie, we, I believe Dwayne was and the solar bylaw working group was going to ask us, you see AC to contribute or develop a couple of different plans for our predictions of scenarios for future solar needs in the town. And I was hoping that that Dwayne would be around and maybe could give us an update or help explain more what we might be asked to do in that regard. I don't think that hasn't come up yet Steve so I can tell you that he would say that that's for a future discussion. Okay, they haven't gotten that far yet they're still sort of working out with their, you know, what they're looking at and their timeline and you know the points that they're trying to meet. So I don't think they're quite there yet. Okay, I guess my little editorial comment there is that by starting out by looking at all the possible restrictions on solar that's going to put them in a certain mind frame. They're predicting solar, and I hope that they take the opportunity to look at the need for solar soon, so that they can balance. Think thoughts about restrictions with the thoughts for need, particularly with the new updated Massachusetts clean energy climate action plan and the existing roadmap. I would say that your, I think on the timeline that Dwayne drafted I just I didn't open it I could try to find it but I don't want to get too distracted and take up time but I'm pretty sure you all are listed as being part of their timeline. In terms of getting your feedback and bringing it back so you know I, you're definitely part of that process, they just haven't had a big discussion about it it's been very much, you know, just sort of, like I said last, the last meeting. And I think the one tomorrow are still sort of looking at, you know, kind of where, you know, what the examples are, what the time I want to do what our timeline is going to be looking at how to navigate the town's GIS maps and find things find information. Chris's presentation tomorrow is going to be on land use that just sort of helps them identify different land use in town. In terms of when they're thinking about this for citing solar. I think Laura just brought those Laura, Laura Paglia Rulo brought up those cases just because they recently came up and she just thought it was something for them to be aware of but it wasn't a big focus on, we should be paying attention to this it was more just something to think about as we move forward, and they just wanted, you know, to sort of check in with legal counsel about it just because a few people had sent that information so it was coming internally from the group. But also externally from residents in the town. And I think that that information that Michael pills and I think you actually all that was sent to all of you I think I had forwarded that to all of you in a previous packet. I'm just remembering that he had sent that to the ECAC. So, I'll double check, but I think you may have it already. Steve you had more comments or. No, thank you that's all I had the lower my hand. Thanks Steve. Thanks Stephanie. The next agenda item is the unifying theme that Jesse was working on. I'm going to humbly request a pass I have not prepared nor am I in a good position to manage that conversation right now. And while I have the microphone, Lori, if you are going to put something together to inform people about electrifying house, I'd be happy to take a look at it, I think, to speak to Laura Drucker's point. I think this is a little out of order. The messaging is critical here. And, and I think some of the things you said we're not accurate. And so I don't want to take time within this meeting, but I would love, I'd be more than happy to sort of clarify some of what the technology can and can't do. Not only that, but how to have the messaging of that be incentivized people to take certain actions versus versus frustrating people to not take action so I just want to throw that out there, but not, not to do that now. Yeah, yeah, that sounds great Jesse let me, you know, if I put something together I will definitely you should meet and talk about it and, you know, fantastic. And Jesse if you want to talk offline about the unifying theme as well. Let me know I sent you a note last time so. Yeah, that would be great. I. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, so. I just want to go on record and say that we also have heat pumps, and they were great. So we're another n equals one of the heat pumps. We also switched from oil and space heaters to heat pumps and a fireplace insert if anybody's extremely curious. And a curiosity is it central or is it mini splits. It's mini splits. Yeah. And maybe it's just worth saying quickly, it's the same technology. It's just how it gets distributed and it absolutely can go below 40 degrees like I'll just quickly say that that's not inducted systems can work below zero. So that's, I think we should just let's, but we'll dig into it a little bit it's, and I think the key thing that you said that it's so true is it's just one size does not fit all. And so the blanket statements, such as the one I just made won't always work. All right, that's all we have for agenda items short and sweet this time so items for the next meeting Stella continue the conversation on the transportation sector. We're just probably going to send us the bylaw for zero waste and Stephanie if that can be added to the packet. Like the wooden that. And then the seat pace from representative from Greenfield, possibly as an action item. And then we're going to continue talking about the solar bylaw working update. Anything else, Laura. Um, yeah, just on the bylaw thing. I think what I heard on a say is like, it's going to be introduced and then it goes to the TSO, which is a council committee to like work on it, and then they agree to it and then it goes back to the council. So I think we probably want a little more clarity on when would be the right time for ecac to weigh in is it the first draft, is it the last draft. You know I don't think we want to spend a ton of time on it I think generally we want to say this we think this is a good idea, but like, we probably want to figure out when is the most efficient place for us to make that statement. So maybe that's a question for Anna offline and then we can decide when to throw it into the agenda. Yeah, thanks Laura. Stella. I sent this to you but since the 19th is before our next meeting I thought I'd just throw it out there that there is definitely community interest I'm sure Stephanie is like already aware of this in the EPA. The bus grant thing that's due on the 19th that came in through a parents mailing list I'm on. So I just wanted to like bring that forward as there's definitely like organic community interest in that. I would imagine it's too late for this round of funding but just like heads up that there's there's will for electric school buses, or more of them I guess there's one. I don't know that's what the email said. Stephanie. Yeah, just the town is. So the school department is basically sort of handling that piece of funding, they're communicating with me and the town manager, and the finance director about it but that kind of squarely lives with the schools. And the opportunity. I can't remember there's a few electric school bus grants out there right now on them. But the EPA one I think is the one that actually you have to be in a specific district or region that we're not in so it's not the funding isn't magically as much as we would have hoped. And so I think it's, it's not as. It's not as straightforward as it seems I guess is what I'm trying to say that particular grant. I would ask I guess for a future meeting would be an update from someone knowledgeable about the mass climate bill. It would be I think really nice to get a overview I know Stephanie shared some resources, but it might nice to get might be nice to get at our meeting some highlights about that particularly those aspects of the climate bill that we can work with the town of Amherst will be able to take in and work with. So that would be really nice. And then, yeah, after it passes Steve, well that's right presumably you know something's going to happen or not tomorrow. So in two weeks we should have a handle on. If it doesn't pass I guess we don't have a conversation. I had a question, just can he not sign it and it will become law without a signature is that one of the options. Yeah, okay. I think, right. If he doesn't sign it becomes law. Okay. And can the legislature still override his veto or is it too late because the session is over. I think the session is over so I don't know. Yeah. Okay. My sense was that yeah my sense was that if he didn't sign. It would put us back. We'd be waiting for a new administration. And we'd be, yeah sort of starting at the beginning, not quite at the beginning but you know, we'd have to go through the process again. I think that's if he vetoes it. He can do what they call the pocket veto where he, not a pocket veto he can not sign it but then it comes law and he doesn't like endorse it but it becomes law anyways. I think that's one of the possibilities he has. Yeah, I heard of that as well as Steve as a possibility. I thought that was true just wasn't at all how it was presented today but. Oh, then maybe I'm wrong maybe it's gone. I'd heard that as well so I'm not that's a point not even I'm not really clear on right now because. Yeah, but if the be a pressure, then I would imagine that he has to sign it seems like it. Well then the other question I had is that the, the, the updated clean energy climate action plan came out last month or so. I've been working my way reading through it, and it provides I think some useful guidance is updates and whether that is something that we might want to dive into or read or discuss portions of again as sort of related to the local work that we're trying to do. Can you repeat what that is and extend a little bit on it. Sorry. It's, it's the updated version of the clean energy, the CEP clean energy climate plan for 2025 and 2030. And it's provides harder I'm just bringing it up here, harder deadlines and emissions limits. This is required by the climate bill that was signed several years ago so it's an update to the interim. CECP that came out a little over a year ago, and it goes through and it discusses all the different greenhouse gas emissions sectors across the state, and what the limits are going to be for those sectors. And so there's buildings transportation. There's a chapter on ensuring a just transition in the Commonwealth. Yeah, the energy supply transportation and buildings and protecting our natural and working lands. So provide some updates on those. There's a detailed appendix with some more details that I haven't gotten to yet. So there may be things in there that are useful and I guess I'm not quite sure if we want to spend time as a study group, studying it, or possibly trying to get an overview from somebody who's really knowledgeable about it. Yeah, let me, let me look into that Steve, I'll let me read a little bit more about that and see if it makes sense to actually have a discussion you said CEC. Yes. Yeah, Massachusetts Clean Energy and Climate Plan for 2025 and 2030. I can put a link to it in the minutes and share so that everybody will have that link to the document. That'll be great. Thank you. Yeah, let's hold off on that as an agenda item. Sure. Thank you. And then for the next meeting we're also talking about capital inventory memo on eyes. And Jesse, do you think you can talk about the unifying theme or you need more time? Yeah, next meeting no problem. Okay, I would like to connect with you offline if that's okay before the next meeting Jesse. Yes, definitely. Okay. Okay, anything else for next week. Okay. Steve, your, you just forgot to raise that lower your hand. Correct. Correct. Okay. One thing I just did want to say though is that I will be on vacation next week. So I'm going to be trying to get the packet out on Friday for the next meeting. So I can, if something comes up, I can change it when I get back, like on the Monday that I get back, I still have time before the meeting if anything has to be updated, but I'm just letting you know now. When is our next meeting? You keep saying next week. Is it next week? It's the 24th. Oh, it is next week. Sorry, two weeks. Yeah, yeah, okay. You mean, yeah, your meetings are every two weeks. Okay. Let's move on to public comments. Okay, if anyone from the public has a comment, please electronically raise your hand and I'll unmute you. Okay. All right. That's all we have today everybody sharp and sweet. Thanks again for your input. A lot of things going on in the background with Don and Lori and Steve and obviously Stephanie as well so there's things that we're doing and Stephanie we need to connect on. Hopefully if you can share that register of actions that the town managers taking and then we can figure out how we can work that. And then we can move on into our execution arm. Yes, I'm waiting on feedback so. Yeah, I will let you know as soon as I get a response. Okay. All right. That's all we have everybody. Thanks for your time. Thanks. Thank you. Thanks. Bye.