 Welcome Church family. I hope you're doing well. And as you guys have seen, we have already posted one interview and we're going to be doing this quite frequently. And we have our guest here, Pastor David and Marie. How are you guys? We're good. Good. Thank you. You know, I know our church family misses you and look forward to the time that we can get back together and fellowship and worship and praise the Lord. You know, it's interesting, Pastor and Marie, we see that and we talked about this before is what the enemy has intended for evil. God has turned around made for good. Isn't that amazing? It's amazing to see what the Lord's doing and how the Lord's just moving. I mean, we're talking about the different things that I'm sure you'll be covering in your message to think how the how the gospel is going out in places we thought that would never be reached. Think about that. Wow, it's amazing. It's just and you've been saying this that the Word of God can't be changed. No, no, the Word of God is free, you know, and free to Rome as he desires it to. And so we're seeing that right now. I believe that it's a time for God's Word to be proclaimed even more, more loudly, if you will, to use whatever media we have at our, you know, opportunities that we have at our disposal. And that's what we're doing right now. I mean, you just can't, you just can't quench the spirit's work. You just can't. You know, Satan, I believe, has tried to shut up the church. I believe he tried to and all the church did is it did what it's supposed to do. It began to function in the home. You know, that's what's happened, John, not in every home, of course, but but believers in Christ have taken this, I think as a call from the Lord. And there are husbands who are finally doing what God created them to do. They're finally giving devotions in the home. They're finally praying with their kids and leading. And there are wives who I think right now are very relieved to see their husbands doing what God has called them to do. And so this is one of the ways that I believe the Lord takes that which was intended for evil and turns it around and uses it for his own glory. And because I know that there are, I'm getting, you know, notes and messages and all from people in our fellowship who are are seeing God do some wonderful things. And so in spite of the inconveniences and all that we're going through and everything that pertains to that. I just believe that the Lord can use this and is using this. I do miss, I do miss getting together and assembling together. I really do. But I have seen God doing something through this and I look forward to when we can get back. It's going to be a big celebration. Yes. Worship. I'm looking forward to that. You know, so this just leads me to the topic I want to discuss with you both today. You know, a lot of things have been revealed. The church has been a lot of things have been revealed about the church during this time. And one of the things that that I've seen is that the entertained church hasn't really been the church that people need during this time. So I chose the topic to entertain church, the entertained family. You know, Spurgeon quoted a time will come when instead of shepherds feeding the sheep, the church will have clowns entertaining the goats. Earlier, you and I were speaking and you're sharing that Paul points out that that the church is to be provoking Israel to jealousy. And so what are your guys's thoughts or definition of what the entertained church is? I think that we've always had an awareness that that the gospel in and of itself may not have a theatrical appeal to people that it's not it's not provoking them to an amusement. It's it's something that is very serious and when presented in the fashion that it deserves, which means in a serious and sober minded way. Not to mean you can't smile and laugh and enjoy yourself. I do when I'm teaching and I have opportunity to say something to make us laugh together. I think that's fine. But when the church is built on the personality of that pastor and his his pet doctrines or his current concerns, it's not it's not focusing on Jesus. And what happens is you begin to orchestrate things to capture audiences. And instead of training up disciples, you build up just a group of listeners. And as you build up a group of listeners, you begin to be afraid to offend the listener because that means you're going to lose your audience. With the audience when they like what they're hearing comes sometimes a giving heart. So they begin to support and finances start coming in. Before you know it, that pastor has become an entertainer. He's become somebody who is theatrical, somebody who is careful not to say things to offend sensitive listeners. And therefore he has to find ways to appeal to the carnal desires of the majority. And when that happens, you end up with a bunch of goats and you start entertaining the goats. And that's what that's what Spurgeon would have been saying. That's what he was saying. And that's what we see today. I believe that there are numerous quote unquote ministries that are not teaching the word that are simply not giving Bible studies. There have been times when I've heard someone who has used the scripture and then twisted it to mean something entirely different. That you begin to wonder if Jesus were seated in front of that man. If Jesus would be nodding his head in approval saying, oh, that's exactly what I meant. Or when if they were quoting from Paul, if Paul would have sat there saying exactly, you got it right. There's so much twisted scripture. There's so much appealing to to carnality. I'm sorry to say that, but it's true. I've been a believer this year at the end of the year. 50 years of walking with Christ, John. And I celebrate in September, 47 years of opening up the book, opening up the Bible to teach people. That's a long time. And I've seen things over the years that have come into church, waves of doctrine, winds of doctrine that have upset and destroyed. I've seen plenty of those things. And it all goes back to not loving the word. It all goes back to being afraid of the people. In the book to Jeremiah, he said, be not afraid of their faces. They're not going to approve of the things you say. They're not going to like it. They're going to be mad. They're going to do some things ultimately that will cause you to suffer. Don't be afraid of those people. But there are quite a number of pastors that I'm aware of who seem to be very afraid of disapproval, very afraid. So they say things that appeal. They tickle the ear of the hearer, which falls right in line with Paul saying what's going to take place in the end times. So we do have an entertainment oriented nation and we have an entertainment oriented church. No doubt. And the sad thing is, you know, I just was recently speaking to somebody who is going through a difficult time in their life. And it brought a lot of fear, a lot of anxiety. And then was sharing with me some of the teachings that they've been listening to. And I started thinking about exactly what you're saying. How much weight does that really hold when somebody's going to a church that's entertainment oriented and they're going through a difficult time? Then what's the purpose of the church if they can't even help them go through these difficult times? And it really revealed to me that, you know, with the COVID-19 and the cause and the panic and the fear with now people going to these entertained. oriented churches, when they start going through a difficult time, where's their faith? I mean, the Proverbs tells us that if you faint in the day of adversity, your strength is small. I'm not saying that we have the greatest faith, but when we have the word talked to us week in and week out, we know that when we go through difficult times, we can rely on God's word. And I find that very interesting that these entertainment oriented churches, they're tugging at the emotions of the feelings. They're doing this and they're doing that and they're tickling the ears. And then when the rubber meets the road, what happens? And I'm seeing that. And how do you think that has affected our families? You know, even with our church, we get fed the word and we have a model of you and Maria's for marriages. And the word that is taught from our pulpit, from your pulpit comes down and it's saturating our families and godly like families are being produced because of the word of God. How are families and marriages affected by these entertainment church oriented styles? Well, if all you want to do is go to church to feel good about yourself, then it's feeding into the arrogance of human. What's the word I want to use? Human beings can be arrogant. We think that what we do is right, but everything we do is good, etc. So if all you ever hear is that you're just fine the way you are and you go to church to make you feel better about yourself, well naturally you're going to live for yourself and the family. And if you're living for yourself and the family, that means my wife needs to do everything that I want her to do to make me happy and to think he has to make me happy and then the children fall into play with that. Everything in their life, I have to do something to make them happy and before you know it, none of us are holy, but all of us are trying to be happy. I really believe that when you don't have a well rounded diet, when God's word isn't taught to you both the blessings as well as the penalties for rejection and you don't have balance, your whole life's out of balance. And so what we have right now, I think you already mentioned in a moment ago, John, is we have people who go through very difficult times who are wondering why they're going through these difficult times because all the preacher ever has told them is that you're not the tail, you're the head. Everything's supposed to work out just fine for you, so there must be something wrong with your faith or the way that you're living because you're not putting into practice the things that I have taught you. And in fact that charlatan of a preacher is out there in his jet, he's living in his multi-million dollar mansion, taking vacations in places that others only dream of going and he's doing it all in the name of Jesus. And so he's not feeding the flock, he's fleecing them. And unfortunately the word of God not being taught, they're not getting discernment and because they're not encouraged to read on their own and to grow on their own, many of them remain deceived and that's going to destroy everything, it destroys family. The beginning of the church, the life of the church is the home. And if in the home the men aren't really leading and the women are not submitting to the leadership of a godly man because he's not godly, you're going to have conflict and that's what we see taking place all the time. In churches like this, I'm not saying that only churches that don't teach like we do only they have problems. No, every church has problems because every church is made up of human beings with problems. But when you emphasize the right things and encourage and hold them to those things and live those things, you've got a better chance of seeing God move in your life. And when the tragedies and when the problems and when the pains enter into your life, you know who to hang on to. You know, these guys a lot of times are looking to the superstar preacher up there, the guy who spends more time in the weight room than he does waiting on the Lord, that guy. You know, it's got to have that tight t-shirt on. What's going to happen when that guy's my age? You know, he comes out there, is he going to wear a girdle? I mean, what's he going to do? What's he going to do? It's crazy. Yeah, you know what? In John chapter 14, Jesus promises that their spirit of truths who the world cannot receive is because they can't see him. And I think about in these situations when the spirit of the Lord can't be found, something's taken away their attention. You know, something has been replaced by that, whether it's I'm basing everything on my feelings or I'm basing everything on what they're being offered instead of banking on the promises of Jesus saying, I will not leave you as orphans, going through difficult times. What are your thoughts about that pastor, about not being able to see the spirit of truth in these, in light of these entertainment based churches? You know, the word of God when rightly divided and applied, it creates a new lifestyle. They're supposed to live as if God has touched them, right? And so if they're not being taught how to live, even by just reading the word of God and finding application, well, you end up living as you desire or as you please, but you're not really going to live for him because you don't know what he wants. You know, when Marie and I went on our first date, I might have mentioned this before, but when Marie and I went on our very first date, you know, I picked her up at her apartment at around 11 or so. And we spent the entire day together and then we, I went and dropped her off and I left her place at one in the morning. And all we did was talk, we talked for all those hours. So that was from our very first day, John. I mean, Marie and I to this day, do the same thing to this day, all these years of being together. I don't find anybody more interesting to be with. I don't find anybody more enjoyable to be with anybody that that I would prefer being with. And so we have invested in each other in a way that I think God wanted us to do. I don't worship her. She doesn't worship me, but we love each other and we love each other because of Jesus. And so together we have grown. The other day, someone was asking perhaps you, I think it was you. I think it was in conversation with you and maybe the couple of the other guys, but Marie has never had another pastor in her life. She's never had another pastor. I haven't. I've been her only pastor all these years because she was in my Bible study. She came to faith in Christ through my sister in our Bible study. And she has never sat at the feet of another teacher, even when I was in my early twenties. I have always had that position in her life. And I retain it. I have never yielded it up. She has never called pastor so-and-so pastor. You know, even when I was attending church, even when she and I were, when I was a Bible teacher alone, even when I was an assisting pastor. She's never called another man or pastor ever. She has one pastor. And that's been me. She has Jesus, her great shepherd, but she has her pastor husband, pastor boyfriend really, pastor husband. So we've never known anything different. What would you attribute to your steadfastness, Marie, in just being faithful in that area? When I came to this Bible study, I never left it. I mean, it was consistent, pretty much consistent. Maybe once I wasn't there, like Dave said last week. Consistency, you know, and he encouraged me in the Word. He would give me a little assignments and show me some of the scriptures that would help me grow in my walk with the Lord. And it's been like that since then, basically. It really has. My life changed completely, and I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful that I met my husband. And it's been a blessing to serve the Lord all these years. And I can't imagine going back to where I was before. I can't imagine having a life like that because God has blessed us in abundance. And I love him and I want to serve him and serve our church, family, the women. I love the women. I love what he's given to us. A precious people, precious church. A loving church, huh? And a precious pastor. A precious man. A wonderful man. She calls me her precious, but she sounds like Gollum when she says it. My precious. Precious sounds a little sweet, doesn't it? Too sweet, huh? Marie, one of the questions, and maybe some of the women are out there wondering, you know, when you have your submission to Christ, as Pastor just mentioned, as your shepherd, but you being able to look to pastor as your pastor and then your husband, that role, was that ever a difficult place for you to see, okay, I see he's my husband and my pastor or he's my pastor and then my husband. Was there any, like any type of struggle with that? Not really. I don't think I had that kind of struggle. I think from the very, I respected him. I mean, it's not like we haven't had our times of disagreements and all that. She admits when she's wrong. You know, it's interesting, what are the questions? I'm not wrong very often. One of the questions that so many, some made it last week and I didn't have a chance to ask is, when you guys argued, do you guys speak scripture to one another? You know, scripture isn't something that you quote. It's something that you live. You know, and so the way we treat each other is reflective of what the scripture teaches us. And we were talking the other day. I was just, we were just talking about this yesterday, Marie and I, and this is true. People can believe it. If they want it, they don't, it doesn't matter to me. Ultimately, it's true. We don't fight. You know, the question about, you know, fighting. Yes, when we got together as husband and wife. Yeah, you know, you know, there were times where we're iron sharpens iron. There were times that she has her way of doing things. I have my way of doing things. And it took a while for her to realize my way is always the best. It took us a while to learn how to adjust to one another, to learn to respect one another, to communicate, to do those things. And John so, and it wasn't immediate and it wasn't in a week or a month or a year. It was over time. And Marie and I, we honestly don't, we don't argue, we don't fight anymore. Those battles were fought early on. Yes. And so what we do now is if I disagree about something with her, it's never so huge that it has to be an issue. You know, I think people make mistakes when they want to fight about everything. You have to do this, do that or this and that. I think that's a big mistake. So only the major things, the things that really matter are the things that, that we need to say we have to talk about this. And there's so few of those things between us now. I don't even think about it. Do you guys still study one another? That's what you do. That's what husbands are, we're commanded to do. The husband dwell with your wives according to knowledge. Yeah. Why? Because one of the things about a human being is we change over time. Marie's not the 22 year old girl that I knew anymore. And I'm not the 24 year old young man. That's right. We're older. And so we change with time. If you're not changing, you're dying. So we change, you know, we adjust to things. We, we grow, you know, if we're not growing. So no, so I'm constantly watching my girl. I know, I know most of, I can read her mind quote unquote. I know her. But one of the beautiful things about being a human being is you can change. And something that mattered to you in one day may not matter to you the next. There's nothing wrong with that. And so I would say that together we've, we've learned to just adjust. And, and we've done a good job. I can't imagine anybody else that I could ever want to be with. You didn't think of being with. That doesn't exist. This person, Marie has been the person I poured my life into. And she's done the same with me. So no, we know each other. We don't, we, we, we honestly don't fight. If I get upset at her for anything, I don't, I don't, I don't raise my voice or anything. I'll just say no, that's not something. And we talk like that. Let's deal with this. She's got every right to tell me the same thing. And if she feels like it, she does. And we don't, we just don't fight anymore. God. It's sweet. These are our, our, our, our, our latter years, you know, of course, you know, and they've been sweet. They get sweeter, you know. And again, a marriage based on God's word versus a marriage that could be based on entertainment purposes in terms of the church, the opportunity to continue to study one another here in the endearment, even now between you two. Because it was based on God's word. You know, when you, when you, as a, as a, as a man, when you, when you realize, you know, that, that, that a good wife is, is a gift. When you realize that, you know, I'm not when it's going to exchange a gift. I might, my kids will tell you that about me. Somebody will give me something and they're the ones who try to force me to get rid of it. I don't get rid of stuff. Dad, you're a pack rat. I don't believe that I am, but I do attach sentimental value to things. And so when, when I have even simple things that were given to me by somebody and you look at my desk, they'll come in and clean it off because my granddaughters just gave me all these pictures. I'll keep them on my desk. So Anna, my daughter will come in and she's going to clean the desk off because she knows daddy keeps these things. So if I keep little pictures or things like that, how about a human being? You know, so no, no, um, I have the most valuable person in my life. I have no desire for anything else. Not at all. That's beautiful to hear. I mean, again, we see so many, so much brokenness in our marriages today. We see men not stepping up and leading their wives. We see why is even in their part, not stepping up and being what God has called them to be. And again, we see that throughout even the church. And it's sad to see that God has really given one another as a gift and the beauty and the love that I mean, if I were to ask you both, is there anything besides the Lord Jesus Christ? Is there anything other that you love the most besides your husband or your wife? Just our family. We love our babies. Yeah, but no, I'm. I can't imagine anything with, you know, what we have. Listen, look at the, look at this situation we have right now, John, where people are freaking out because of this virus and this and that. You know, people are in home actually having to get to know the person they've been married to 15 years. Think about that. You know, there's a real problem with that. It just shows me the neglect that has taken place in that home. You know, from very early, very early, Marie and I had dates, even as married couples. The dates are not going out and getting dressed up and, you know, going some, you know, our date is, let's get some coffee. That's what our dates are from the beginning. You know, this make Friday a time when it's, we got time just for us. Even when we had small babies, we would find time for us. You know, and it's our, you got four babies. We had five pregnancies in six and a half years. You know, we lost one of our babies, you know. So we had to find time. We had to find ways because we did not want to be like ships passing in the night. I wasn't going to be that. And so we chose, we chose each other, you know, before there were kids, there was Marie and when the kids get married and move out of the house, there's still Marie. And that's the way it works for us. That's how it's worked. Pastor Marie, how would you encourage our church during this time as we wrap it up? And, you know, we've been talking about a few different things that entertain church, entertain family, the entertain marriages. How would you encourage the women and our church in these times, pastor and Marie? Go ahead, baby. You know, I would, for the women, I would say, get it, make sure you're reading the word, that you're studying the word and that you're nurturing your children. These are the best times in your life when you, you have your kids little or, you know, when you can pour into them, you know, they'll grow up soon. So, put your heart into your children. Love them, nourish them, give them the word. Love your, your husband, you know, minister to your husband. Show them how a godly wife ought to act, you know, treat them kindly. Just pour into them, pour into their little minds. This is when they can hear God's word. And this is the time where they can remember it. So this is, it's, it's a vital time to pour into them, especially when they're little, because that will go with them as they grow older. And they'll remember those scriptures later on. And so, and be a good wife to your husband. Be that woman that serves her husband, loves her husband, encourages her husband. I think the men need a lot of encouragement, especially now that some of them have been let go. And, and, and they can be feeling, feeling pretty down, you know, we're, we're, what's happening here that, you know, their lives have been crushed right at this moment moment. And they need to be uplifted and their wives, you know, we have a lot of power. And that, and the fact that we can encourage our husbands and we can love them. And, and we can uplift them. And they need to know that they're, they're so important to us. And, and, and just to be that wife, that loving wife to your husband and to your children. It's, it's, it will be fruitful in the end. And for such a time as this, I just think, you know, we have the opportunity to do just such that in a very real way during these times. Amen. You know, the husband has authority. The woman has influence. And when the, when the husband washes the wife with the water, the word, she answers to God. Because she may have a difficult time with her husband, but she answers to God. The wife is to submit to her husband as she says, submits to the Lord. And so if the husband has the wisdom to live out the word and to give out the word, then that helps the wife to know where her proper relationship with him, how that really works. And if he's cherishing her the way God commands us to, then she sees the value of the relationship. Years ago, my dad, many years ago now, my dad and I, Marie and my mom went to, we were going out, which we didn't do very often. It was an afternoon. We went somewhere together. We were in Rancho Cucamonga. I do remember that. And my dad and I stopped at a store and he was picking up some soda and things like that. We were going to have a meal. And so we stopped at a store, a small, small mom and pop. And there in front of me was a man and his wife. And I'll never forget this because the guy put his, he put his groceries on the counter. And pulled out his wallet and put down his money and paid for it. Put his wallet back in his pocket, turned around and kind of marched out. She picked up the bag carrying the groceries and she followed him dutifully out the door and down the street. And I was with my dad and I was walking with my dad and I'm going to be real. I'm a Mexican American. These were a Mexican couple about my dad's age. And I looked at this Mexican guy walking in front of his wife like that with that machismo that a lot of Mexican guys have. And I turned to my dad and I said, dad, I want to thank you. And he looks at me. He said, for what? I said, for never treating my mother the way that man is treating that woman. I want to thank you. I really believe that a husband is to cherish the wife, to nurture her, to nourish her, to protect her, to encourage her, to be her leader. You know, the Bible says to us that in 1 Corinthians 11 that the woman is the glory of the man. And my father once told me, son, he said, dude, does not that man who was not treating his wife properly realize how bad he looks because of his marriage? And that was one of those insights my father gave to me because my mom was a little firecracker, John. My mom had an opinion about everything and if she wanted yours, she'd give it to you. That was my mom. My dad was a quiet man. But when my dad entered into the room, when my dad was there, my mom was respectful to that man. Why? Because he loved her. He laid down his life for her. And she knew that there'd never be a man in her life who would love her like my dad did. They would never. My dad was her husband from the time she was 17 years old and he was 20 years old. He was 20 years old. And he loved her to the point that when he died, the last thing I know he ever said was when she walked in the room. The last thing I know that he ever said, she walked into the room in his last words. He never called her by her name. She was always mama. She walked into the room and his last thing he ever did is he mouthed the words mama to her. That was a man who taught me to love my wife. That's how it works. And I taught my sons how to love their wives. And Marie taught my daughters how to love their husbands. And we love each other in the Lord. That's how it works. And so she is my everything outside of Jesus. He's my everything. She's my everything outside of him. And I'm the same with her. She loves the Lord more than she loves me. She loves God. And every husband who wants a good Christian marriage, he needs to wash the wife with a word. He needs to give the prophetic word to her. It's not simply a Bible study, but he has to incarnate that word. He has to be the man who lives it so that the Bible is explained by a life that is lived. And if he's living for Jesus, and this woman here, I think now at this point, I would probably say that she has a husband who does that. That's what earned her respect. That's where the Bible says husbands love your wife, but wives respect your husband. And a husband has to live in a way that I could do this in front of you. With the woman I'm holding hands with right now. And I'm not being a hypocrite. I can say this in front of her because it's true. What I do is true. And that's the key. Love the Lord with all your heart. Love your neighbor as yourself. Who's my closest neighbor? My wife. And so if I love her as myself, what does that mean? Well, like Christ loved the church in the latest life down, then maybe I'll have a good marriage. That is cool. It's a blessing. Again, I didn't get more than honest this time though. Thank you guys for that. That's really encouraging because again, pulling this all back together, the importance of being centered on God's word and not centered on anything else. And again, this is the fruit of again, a church that's built on God's word and a marriage that's built on God's word. Amen. And so I want to thank our church family for tuning in. I thank Pastor David and Marie. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for the good times. And I hope we can continue to interview and question and answer this. We like it. Yeah, it's pretty cool. And so anything you want to say to our church before we leave? Yeah, God be with you. God help you. We miss you. We're looking forward to being together again. Until that moment, stay in the word of God. That's the bottom line. Love you guys.