 Rydyn ni'n gwybod i gael i gael i gael i'r gweithio'r gweithiau gyda'r Unig Llywodraeth, Ysbeth, Llywodraeth i Gweithio'r Gweithio yng Nghymru. Yr ystafell yma ymddiwch i'r ddweud yma yw'r gweithio'r ddiwyddon ym Pryfyn, ac ymgyrchu eu gwirionedd i'r ddiwyddon ymddiwch i'r ddiwyddon ymgryd. Diolch. Byddwn i chi'n gwybod i gael i gael i'r ddweud ymddiwch i'r gweithio'r gweithio, materiw sy'n mynd i willo am oedd ymateb ddiwethaf dw i ddweud hayd. The second agenda item this morning is annual evidence session on the annual report of the BBC. It is firmly in the calendar of this committee now to have this session, so we are delighted to be joined this morning by Steve Carson director and Louise Thornton head of commissioning Alan Dixon, chief financial officer at the BBC. A warm welcome and may I invite Mr Carson to make a brief opening segment. Thank you convener. It's a pleasure to be here before the Scottish Parliament's committee with responsibility for culture. I'm delighted, as you say, that alongside me are the BBC's chief financial officer Alan Dixon and the head of commissioning for BBC Scotland, Louise Thornton. The year under review in the BBC's annual report on accounts laid before the Scottish Parliament covers April 2022 through to March 2023 period, which included the death of Her Majesty the Queen at Balmoral, when BBC Scotland's teams were central in covering events for our audiences at home and around the world. During the time under review, we delivered high-impact content, including the powerful drama Mayflies, and the creative documentary account of Brandon Lee's story in my old school both went on to become BAFTA award-winning programmes. We invested in content from across Scotland, including drama series Granite Harbour based in the north-east, and followed a fictional family drama set in the Harris-Tweed industry in the Gally drama and Claude Moore, series two of which has actually started this week on BBC Alibagh. There are a few highlights that I'd like to mention beyond the scope of that time period, covered by the last annual report, which may be covered in our next annual report and account session. The BBC's across the UK strategy has seen an increase in network commissions and co-commissions with Louise, including Shetland, with the successful introduction of a new lead, Vigil and the Traders, which was the biggest new series for young audiences across all BBC titles last year. We have, as you know, the second series currently on air. Really Once Big Again came from Dundee in May, and according to Dundee City Council, the estimated economic impact on the local economy was £3.7 million, and that's not including the BBC spend or employment at the event. We know that audiences in Scotland responded very positively to that, both in person at the event and through listening and viewing figures on iPlayer. Other key moments included hosting the Cycling World Championship in August, and that's one of the biggest sporting events that Scotland has ever staged. Where BBC Scotland, we were the media hub for global coverage, and our news teams produced live online coverage for all BBC outlets when we were hit by Storm Babette in October. There's been several storms, of course, since then. It also feels appropriate to note the regeneration of one Scottish Doctor Who into another Scottish Doctor Who in what was the 60th anniversary of the world's longest-running science fiction show. Throughout 2023, we celebrated the centenary of the BBC in Scotland, marking 100 years since the first broadcast from Glasgow last March, the first broadcast from Aberdeen, and showing, I think, our long-term commitment to the language the first broadcast in Gaelic last December. Coming up this year, we'll be celebrating the centenaries of BBC Learning and Education and our first broadcast from Edinburgh and Dundee. We know just how central our partnership with Screen Scotland is in growing the creative economy, and that includes shared training and development initiatives, joint investment and content on titles like Gils and Granite Harbour. Screen Scotland's own recent assessment of the economic value of the screen sector in Scotland noted that the BBC's content spend on TV production in Scotland represented fully three quarters of our public service broadcaster expenditure here during the year surveyed. But there is no doubt that we are operating under tight financial conditions. Since 2010, the BBC's income has reduced in real terms by over 30%, and, like every household and like every business, we face the inflationary pressures of rising costs. We share with members of the committee the common purpose of public service. For us, that means continuing to evolve and adapt our output, supporting the creative sector to make and to deliver content in ways and on platforms where our audience wants to consume it, and that's all set against a competitive and changing media landscape. Finally, we know that the licence fee is a privilege, and it is this unique funding model that ensures that we create bite-sized content, bespoke to Scotland's curriculum, Gallic services for speakers and for new learners, and are all important news or weather or travel information for Scotland. New drama is filmed here as part of Scotland's vibrant creative sector, support and coverage of a wide range of music genres in Scotland, and broad coverage of Scottish sport, where we can look forward this summer to following Scottish athletes at the Paris Olympics and the men's football team at the Euros. There is more that I hope we can share with you today. Louise Allen and I look forward to discussing the annual report on accounts associated matters with the committee this morning. Thank you for that introduction, and thank you also for allowing me to host Dr Who at Christmas time here in the Parliament on behalf of the BBC, which was enjoyed by all who attended. I want to open with a kind of a dive into some of the financial figures in the report on page 9. There is a breakdown of percentage fee income by a country in Scotland. What I am trying to difficult to understand about that is is there a global UK strategic spend that Scotland contributes to. The figures are given its percentages, which is helpful, but it would be really good to have an idea of the magnitude of the figures in real terms for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. How do you get to 111 per cent spend? Thank you, convener. I can maybe start by offering a few comments, and then Steve, please do pitch in. The one thing I would say, convener, is that we are really proud. It is a record year for BBC spend in Scotland, so £262 million against last year's figure of £241 million, so an increase of £21 million. As you say, if you look at the percentage of the licence fee raised in Scotland, that is now up at 86 per cent from 77 per cent last year, 9 per cent. We are really proud of that. What that represents from a BBC executive perspective is not just Steve and Louise spending more on local services and content for audiences specifically in Scotland, but really Steve and Louise working with our network commissioners to deliver more growth. In fact, that is the largest number behind that increase. It is about £15 million. Of course, that feeds up into the BBC's total income. Last year, that was a record of £5.7 billion, £3.7 billion of a licence fee, but also our commercial business at £2 billion. Scotland is an important part in that number and how that sits. With regard to the question of raising it even further, there are maybe two points that I would like to make. There is a lovely tendency when you look at an annual review to think that everything is static from one year to the next. Everyone around this committee will know that that has not been the case with the economy and the inflation that we faced. In fact, the annual accounts year that we are looking at is the first year of the licence fee freeze. We estimated that that would be £285 million. We think of a funding pressure for us. In reality, with that higher inflation, it is over £400 million. A significant pressure to see that growth from Scotland is something that we are really proud of, because it is not the same for every division across the BBC in terms of the savings that we have had to make. To push it further, what that means is continuing the great partnership with network colleagues to see whether there is more drama that can be produced from Scotland or other content. The last thing to say is that, because of the economy of the BBC, it is important to note, though, that viewers, listeners, all our audience in Scotland, of course, enjoy content that is not within those numbers. Things like EastEnders, of course, which would not contribute towards Scotland Spender, the major sporting events, the Olympics, the World Cups and how that is set. What Scottish audience has really valued those things. Even sitting above that, of course, the licence fee has to pay for the world service, which is £250 million. Real ambitions and a strategy across the UK, which Steve might want to talk about, to go further, but against that backdrop, that is why the numbers in the annual account are particularly impressive. Thank you for that. Wales and Northern Ireland are sitting at 111 per cent. Is that additional investment from a UK pot that goes in there? It will be a mixture between those two factors about how many network commissions are going through both Wales and Northern Ireland, also the local content. The infrastructure is different in Wales and Northern Ireland as well. You need fixed costs to be able to broadcast. There is less population in those areas, so you cannot pay back that investment in terms of the ambition. We are constantly interested in the differences and the strategy about how we might be able to improve that. That is definitely where the across-the-uk strategy should help us. I think that convener, just to put again a little bit more flesh on the numbers. That metric, which is published in the annual report on the accounts of licence fee raised and spent in each nation, the direction of travel in Scotland is growing strongly year by year. The figure in this annual report on accounts of licence fee raised and spent is 87 per cent. As Alan said, Scottish licence fee payers contribute into global news gathering, global sporting events as well. The context would be in cash terms since 2021 to this annual report that Scotland has received an additional £54 million worth of content and investment. As Alan was saying, that is good going and against the trend compared to other parts of the BBC. In the not-so-distant past, the licence fee raised and spent figure was in the mid-fifties for context. We are coming towards the end of this financial year. In the next annual report on accounts, we are confident that we can show that trend growing further. That is helpful. Can I move to questions from colleagues and bring in Mr Brown first, please? Thank you, convener. Can I ask the total expenditure in the UK is around £6 billion over a third of which is raised from sources other than the licence fee? What is the equivalent figure for Scotland in terms of the money raised not from the licence fee? I do not know, Steve or Louise, whether you want to talk about that. Mr Brown, I guess the commercial side of the business which is growing, it surpassed £2 billion for the very first time. That might include things like strictly being rebadged as dancing for the stars and sold across the world. It might include UK TV in terms of income through there. A rich seam in a growing business in terms of the commercial side of the business, of course the commercial side of the business also produces and has bases in Scotland. I do not know, Louise, whether you want to talk about that. Briefly, BBC Scotland is clearly funded by the licence fee and it is on what is called the public service side of the BBC. We have several mechanisms for bringing in income. The Scottish Symphony Orchestra which I am very proud to say is an integral part of BBC Scotland. We have some revenue from ticket sales, very strong focus on bringing young audiences in, very successfully as well. Also some recording. The sum of income can come in through licence fees funded side. A thing that Louise has been particularly focused on is one of the ways in which we in BBC Scotland can bring inward investment into Scotland is by partnering with other broadcasters and in fact other parts of the BBC and that is what we call co-commissioning. We are putting our own investment together with another broadcaster and a very strong story creatively and economically for Scotland that Louise could. Yes, if I could add the way my commissioning team is set up we have each commissioner has a certain genre they look after and we have those point-to-point relationships with the genres within network so when we work with our comedy colleagues for example to develop a new comedy series we put in 50 per cent of the budget and they put in 50 per cent of the budget so from that we generate income into BBC Scotland and beyond that co-commissioning partnership we are working really closely with our colleagues in our commercial and business affairs team to look at where the BBC owned IP can generate more income so that a growth market for example is within podcasts you may have seen a trend for podcasts being optioned for drama series that is something we are actively looking at when we create brilliant podcasts through our in-house production team how can we then leverage more income back into the BBC from those titles It would be true to say it would be a relatively small percentage of that 2 billion commercial income that the BBC generates that would be derived from Scotland I expect that it would but I think for the committee trying to come to an idea about fairness in terms of the portion of funds is quite an important figure so if it is not possible to give it just now it would be useful to have it subsequently and to follow up on that there is a certainly my experience never been a time when the BBC other broadcasts as well have had such widespread concern if you like about their output and we have seen increasing numbers of people not paying their licence fee including young people so that is bound to be having an impact and part of it at least is related to what they perceive to be the nature of the current affairs output of the BBC if I can put it that way and I think this week we've seen a reference to the fact that the BBC 9 programme could have as few as 200 viewers I don't know if that's true it's certainly been reported on social media so I think there are real concerns about that and I wondered in recent times I think he's called the director general the BBC attending a meeting of Conservative MPs at Westminster if we can expect a similar kind of courtesy from the director general in this parliament in terms of direct communication with the director general to raise some of his concerns is that possible? I know previous director generals I think have appeared before this committee Mr Brown so I would imagine that the one that happened at Westminster was for a particular political party is that a courtesy extended to all parties? I mean I'm sure the director general would be open to communication if there are any issues or any concerns to put towards him I'm sure he would respond accordingly One last point if I can convener just going back to the spend and it said in the table we have 86 per cent you referred to that figure as well and the committee's heard before and asked about Wales fixed costs for nation areas because if they're smaller that gets to be larger given that if you like premium to deliver services in Wales nor down Scotland the 86 per cent figure seems quite small it's less than 100 per cent of a licence fee and that is including the premium you'll have to pay to is that a matter of concern No, I mean we always look first and foremost and Steve, I will pass to you here to maybe explain a little bit I guess what's our approach what's our strategy to address to the need to serve audiences across the UK in particular in Scotland as well as we possibly can at a top level of course we have launched what's called the across the UK strategy which I think even in its early stages is helping to support the record growth there and there's three aims behind that one is to to move or transfer £700 million out of London into other parts of the UK between 21 and 28 I guess the first part is just by doing that though it's not a financial and economic issue you want to reflect the diversity of voice and the authenticity of all the communities across Scotland and across the UK that's one thing we want to do we also just think it's the right thing to do in terms of moving more of the audience, sorry the licence fee outside London, everyone pays it it's paid in every part of the UK so we think that's important and then the final point is that we want people to be able to grow nurture and develop their talent without having to particularly move to London or anywhere else in it and we really see that investment of creating vibrant hubs where people can have that career to mention anything on that It's okay, convener, there's a few things to unpack there Mr Brown so on licence fee and reass and spend I think we'd all agree if every nation spent 100% in nation that was raised there wouldn't be any foreign news gathering bureau etc etc so the important thing is that the direction of travel in Scotland is significantly growing year by year and that's hard one and it's a confident investment wider across UK strategy but also reflection on the successful content that has been created with existing investment structurally Wales and Northern Ireland are smaller nations in Scotland the cost of news provision for 630 bulletins a share is common to all nations it's roughly the same sort of cost to do that in Wales and Northern Ireland it's more expensive in Scotland being a larger country that's then spread amongst a smaller licence fee base so that is historically why you've seen the higher figures there but I would say going back not too many years ago Scotland's raised spend figure was in the 50s it's not in the 80s and it's set to go above that you touched on there some performance coverage of performance of our news programmes which has been in the press recently I think the specifically the 200 figure related to an episode of the 7 once on the evening I think all here would agree you shouldn't look at any show in isolation and I mean that in two ways whether that's pulling out a single bulletin on a Sunday evening or even looking at an entire service like news service on a channel or even TV news as a whole you shouldn't look at that in isolation from what they are which is part of an integrated news division that operates across TV, radio, online and social figures like 200 don't represent being quoted in isolation don't represent the actual performance of those titles but the 9 reaches over 100,000 viewers every week and the 7 reaches over 20,000 every week and on its own that puts news on the Scotland channel ahead of any other news provider on digital TV in Scotland and I'm conscious in your pack you've got the off-com media nations report and that media nations report from our regulator shows that on its own the channel is favoured by 10 per cent of the audience for news about Scotland the contribution of Sky News and it's more than the main commercial radio stations put together so the channel news itself has a significant contribution to the news offer in Scotland on its own but I would stress it's not on its own it is part of the news Scotland portfolio BBC One News, BBC Scotland, BBC Elba reading on Gail and crucially news online including the start of reinforcing our bases right around Scotland it's not static we are always looking at the balance of resource all our services and we've seen very significant shifts there to move more of our resource within New Scotland into online and our bases and we've seen very strong growth there so it's not a static process the investment in the channel in the nine I think we've seen here is an investment in resource an investment in people that has gone right through our schedule now you've seen people like Martin Geisler, Laura Goodwin David Wallace Lockhart Rebecca Kerr in all new or given opportunities with the channel now part of our output as well the nine, the channel news, the channel itself has always had a record of innovation doing new things, we saw the Sunday show right of that, it's the first time there's been a radio and TV simulcast and using the resources and some of the talent from the channel so that process continues continuing to innovate to make sure we have the right balance of resources across our services to harness the power of our services working together as audiences change thank you good morning, thank you for your comments so far the record spend is very welcome I think that shows the commitment that we have and there have been some real successes and you've touched on them already this morning but there is also audience satisfaction and there are some levels when that has proved to be very good but there's been some negativity about the way things are perceived and how Scotland may well be portrayed in some ways and that obviously is an area for you to investigate and look at what you do to improve that and you're having to compete and you've said that already today the demands of the modern viewer and the younger and the older viewer depending on what they are looking for you have to try and square that circle to ensure that you capture as many of the markets as you possibly can and that you're achieving that in some areas so I commend you for that but it's how you manage to cope with the negativity and you've touched on audience participation in some programmes and where you see yourself going and it's how you can cope with managing to see how the future is the BBC has a without question it's given a regard it's got a status you're competing with STV about news locally and regionally here in Scotland and you're maybe being overtaken in some ways so there's an element of what you're trying to achieve so it would be good to get a flavour of where you see that and how you anticipate that in the next year or two as to what areas you need to command and what areas you need to control because some of them are within your control but I think the broader picture of are we organised to have the balance of resources across our services from TV, radio or online social media that's one where I'd say we are constantly making sure we are set up for that future audience change and I think actually in advance of other broadcasters in that way so BBC Scotland, I think more than five years ago a slightly technical term we integrated into multi-platform commissioning and production to Louise commissions right across the genres our head of news as I say is in charge of news operation that goes right across the genres and that's in advance of some other broadcasters and in terms of being future-proofed as I said the investment we put into news online in Scotland including our bases right around Scotland we're seeing really strong audience growth there so I think set for the future we're making choices we're making decisions constantly but how we make sure we're going on our consumption figures in Scotland remain high so nearly nine in ten scots every week turn to BBC programming in Scotland across a month virtually universal time spent with Scottish TV or TV BBC TV in Scotland and BBC Radio in Scotland is over seven hours per week on average so people turn to us, consumption is strong the proof of the pudding is people turn to the BBC you're right and this is something that we keep a careful focus on regulators, some other national audit office would track how people perceive the BBC in Scotland and you're right to say that our reports would show people feel Scotland isn't as portrayed as well as they would like that's all useful for us I would also say other reports, other surveys from the same regulator would show off-com last year and the annual reports showed that over 60% of adults in Scotland had a positive impression of the BBC the media nations report said three quarters of audiences in Scotland were satisfied with BBC One and the same figure for the BBC Scotland channel but the figures which talk about how Scotland is portrayed speak directly to the mission that BBC Scotland has always had we are here to make sure Scottish stories, places lives are reflected to audiences in Scotland and that we then reflect Scotland to the rest of the UK and crucially to the rest of the world so we're not complacent when we see these figures but we look at that as a form of tracking it also helps to make the case for investment in Scotland and we've talked about the growth figures there and so while our mission has been to reflect Scotland, our mission to BBC Scotland for a number of years what is nigh evident is we're joined now by that wider BBC strategy for across the UK so when we see figures about representation and portrayal we closely focus on them and we also say that's why we need to keep investment, we need to do more we need to make sure we are on all the platforms that our audiences are in we need to join together on that and as I say we've seen that in recent years historic levels of investment historic levels of co-operation between BBC Scotland and the BBC content and BBC audio divisions we've seen under across the UK direct investment of Scotland the BBC news network technology innovation team moved to Scotland just over a year ago and I was with them a few weeks ago they're now expanding into America and that's global content made really nice the creation of a network BBC audio unit in Scotland and Northern Ireland that's big titles moving here new posts moving here and then overall content span growing that's driven and powered by that mission we must make sure audiences in Scotland feel they are represented and one of the new concepts that you've had as the BBC iPlayer or BBC Sound now they seem to be capturing another market for people to come back into and watch and listen to later on necessarily that is an area that you've wished to develop and you're continuing to develop but where do you see that going because that is a new adventure for you absolutely and that's again in terms of future facing why we're well set so even going back to the creation of the Scotland channel it was always conceived as a multi what we call a multi-platform offered the fact that it had its own dedicated space on iPlayer and a huge amount of consumption remains on TV of Scotland titles so I'm just going to hand over to Louise for some examples of that yes it's absolutely the right question we know we're in a very competitive marketplace but we're also very lucky that we get a huge amount of data that we can track and what the data tells us is that we know that our overall linear marketplace is in decline and iPlayer sounds forms are increasing in terms of our younger audience for example I think about 6% is for BBC TV linear whereas 23% is on iPlayer your question about catch up is absolutely right because actually live viewing on iPlayer is increasing as well we can see that within sport we can also track an amount of people that are watching live sport on their phones through iPlayer so when we commission we're absolutely thinking about our portfolio approach we think increasingly less about is this an 8 o'clock show and we think about what does the iPlayer image look like how are we getting our shows in that new and trending bar which does drive a lot of viewing are we working well enough across the BBC to make sure that Scottish content and portrayal is being easy to find for the audience because those are our two big challenges really we need to make shows that feel big and confident and broad and attract lots of viewing and we need to make sure that we can reach audiences with that content so when I'm looking at our performance I'm looking at the channel and I'm really pleased that it's still the most watched digital channel in Scotland and our reach is holding up I'm really pleased about that because it's still a fantastic shop window and we can see when we get audiences live sport, comedy some of our big factual shows are still driving really healthy audiences but I'm also looking at how did that show do on iPlayer and our iPlayer growth over the past four years has doubled which is absolutely brilliant and we're tracking upwards and it absolutely plays into what we've come out in terms of co-commissioning working with other partners making sure that we've got a really strong digital marketing strategy round about each programme because that's really the future of the content and it's the same for audio as well I've doubled our investment in podcasts, seems as a growth platform for us, we're seeing 30 per cent growth over the reporting period linear listening on Radio Scotland is holding up again and I'm really pleased with that because that shows we've still got a very healthy habit in Scotland for linear listening but our discoverability on sounds is key and having big broad programmes that we can drive a lot of audience where we hear our voice and we tell our stories on that platform Mr Sheer, as another example of that approach we take to working across services and how we are positioned in both places so you might be aware of a disclosure investigation on obesity and weight loss so obviously we work in commissioning and across news, across platforms so the disclosure investigative documentary in BBC One on Monday I think got around 100,000 viewers on the overnight now that will then grow on iPlayer over seven days and over 28 days but online news articles from that programme written by the team attracted 1.5 million views reads on that day as well so you can see overall consumption across the portfolio there can I just check with those online news with that view through the BBC website and the news section there so BBC News Scotland we have our own homepage we've also got our indexes for all parts of Scotland that then is obviously available to audiences right around the UK as well okay, thank you can bring in Mr Bibby please thank you, good morning to the panel you've talked earlier there about the growth of online of news online and while that is welcoming that's how society's moving forward in terms of online and digital platforms I have heard some concerns from local newspapers about the BBC more and more potentially duplicating the work that they do at a local level in terms of coverage of local stories now no one's doubting that local stories will make national news but stories that otherwise wouldn't be for broadcast and there's concern when newspapers are really struggling at the moment they're trying to get our subscriptions to boost their income and keep and survive in what is a challenging environment at the moment that more and more content being available free online and BBC is a threat to their business do you accept that concern that inadvertently that this will have an impact on local newspapers and any reflection on that I do know in the Ofcom report there is concern which no doubt you'll say you're sponding to that viewers want to see more regional programmes I just wonder if the balance is right there in terms of yeah, people want more regional content but perhaps that is about broadcast programmes as opposed to the online news content but with those caveats I said earlier that of course the local news will be national news on occasion but getting the balance right to protect local newspapers but also for the BBC to provide the service that you want to provide yeah, we're obviously aware of the representations from newspaper editors right across the UK and right across Scotland we obviously want to make sure it's a positive social good that there is a plurality of news news gathering, news publication across Scotland, Scotland's a long tradition of more newspaper titles per capita than any other nation going back a number of years now so directly the BBC funds the local democracy reporter scheme which provides licence fee funding into reporters who can work for local newspapers in terms of wider question everyone in Scotland pays the licence fee we have bases across Scotland that myself as director working with the Scotland executive team we want to make sure that we are building and reinforcing that ability to cover all of Scotland on radio and on TV but it would be wasteful apart from anything else to say we can't write that up as an online story as well but we are conscious that the newspaper industry is under a lot of structural challenges way beyond the BBC obviously to do with classified advertising and other structural issues but we do need to make sure we reflect all parts of Scotland on TV, on radio and online but we're obviously aware of that issue I think the local democracy reporters is one specific intervention I think the fact that the BBC News Scotland is I think the largest trainer and recruiter of journalists in Scotland overall helps to make sure that that pull of journalism from which newspapers can draw on is just being sustained Thank you for that answer in terms of also responding to audiences in the Ofcom report on BBC from 2022-23 finds that audiences from E social economic groups remain less satisfied with the BBC performance than those from other groups Do you have any indication as to why this is the case and what has been done to address that issue that's been identified? Yeah, just a hand to Louise that's obviously looking at the BBC offer as a whole within BBC Scotland I think we have a stronger story to tell there Yeah, I mean that's something we'll take that very seriously as well The BBC Scotland channel has a CTD majority skew 56 per cent of our audience are from working class backgrounds which is more than any other BBC channel so we realise that we can add those viewers into the overall BBC portfolio but again that plays into the strategy of we need to make sure that those programmes get as wide an audience as possible that they're discoverable that the Scottish audience feel that they really are being heard and represented and what we hear from our research is that those audiences really value when they see hear their voices and the places that they live so some obviously sport us very well with that audience that's a habitual audience for us so we continue to invest in that area comedy is another area where we see a strong profile for a CTD audience again our comedy investment is strong working with the director of comedy John Petrie and his team to get bigger shows coming through two doors down is a fantastic example of a show that that audience we see a strong profile for and then some of our other programmes within BBC Scotland, paramedics on scene ice cream wars we can segment our programmes and tell when we actually get that audience so it's about for us to invest in those programmes making sure that they're on the right platforms at the right times but making sure also that co-commissioning strategy is working and we're doing more of those programmes where we really hear those voices Louisa, I guess it's a really good question because you can look on what appears on screen but this also matters thus this issue from a BBC group perspective so I think we're one of the few organisations that's set a socio-economic target in terms of the diversity of our workforce which sits at 25% we're slightly below that in terms of where we are but we think that that's really really important in terms of just making sure that our staff represent the audiences that they're there to serve actually Scotland in terms of that KPI in that target tends to be slightly higher than the rest of the UK so yes of course on screen but do the BBC take this seriously in terms of the people that work for it and making sure that we reflect our audience is that something that's really important to us one other area that I wanted to raise it's not something that I've formally raised with the BBC before it relates to Scottish content it relates to coverage of this Parliament and there'll be coverage of the Scottish Parliament on the BBC Parliament channel from time to time when the House of Commons is not sitting I know there's coverage at weekends and things like that but it seems to me that we need more coverage of proceedings in this Parliament both committee and chamber live proceedings as and when they happen now the BBC Parliament can only show one programme at one time unless there's a sort of red button function there but we've also had the BBC Scotland channel making any coverage during the day so I do think there's merit in looking at can we increase the coverage of the proceedings in this Parliament to inform the people of Scotland as to what's going on I appreciate you covering FMQs and various other things from time to time and welcome that obviously but is that something that can be considered is that something you would look into how we can increase coverage of the Scottish Parliament live proceedings committee and chamber particularly when you've got a BBC Scotland channel there not actually having live content during the day certainly take that on board arising from this committee appearance as you say yourself we have extensive coverage of politics in Scotland across our outlets including obviously reporting Scotland dedicated political correspondence based in this Parliament First Minister's questions you've mentioned as well I'll also point out for example of innovation bringing TV and radio sounds and iPlayer together Sunday show is in a prime slot on the main radio station Radio Scotland on the main channel BBC One live proceedings of a Parliament we just have to make sure that there would be an audience for that to your question about what about during the day Scotland channel's operating licence is buying ours to start at 7 in the evening and that's with our regulator we have the ability to do a certain amount of programming before that but if we were to go to the routinely on a daily basis broadcasting proceedings of the Scottish Parliament during the day we would have to go back to the regulator on that issue and we'd have to make sure that there was an audience for that what I would say though assuming if there was an audience in demand and discussions I think technology could be a friend or a help here in terms of the way that we think of fixed channels and now what's possible to live stream and to have live intervention the cost is coming down and the ability to do that so it's something that we look across the whole BBC so Steve if that's going to be the discussion then you know you look to see what technology or innovation is possible as well Thank you convener, good morning to the panel I'd like to press you a bit more on the issue of viewing figures of the various news programmes that Brown referred to and I entirely take the point that it would be wrong to look at one day of one programme in isolation and plucking out a Sunday night in early January is a little unfair but nevertheless 200 people watching the seven and only 1700 watching the nine those are really low figures and those are programmes on which jobs have been created funding has been spent and I think when one of them was launched I can't remember which one in 2019 there was a huge three quarters of a million people tuned in to the launch and there is a I'm happy to be corrected on that but I think that was in the news report and I also in the news report was a figure that stated that viewers of BB Scotland declined by a quarter between 2021 and 2023 again happy to be corrected if that's wrong but all that taken into account to do those figures showing a really quite a low reach do they not worry you? We're not complacent and as I said we need to be cautious about putting things in isolation so pulling one episode of one programme in isolation as you say that doesn't represent the totality of the viewing so the average audience for the seven the nine and the seven and other programmes are part of the same grouping the average audience for the seven is about 8,000 the nine can get some low figures of 1,700 I think on Monday night it was 23,000 but the investment that it went into channel news is an investment right the way through new Scotland and you've seen that in terms of the talent I've mentioned the technology I've mentioned that has boosted our average of elections to this Parliament in 2021 we really do look at things in the round but it's not static we've made significant changes with the resources we have in new Scotland within the past two years to divert resource to our online news and that's an on-going process we're always looking at do we have the right mix of resource on any given service so that is genuinely how we look at things but I would say quoting 200 to 1,700 is the totality of even performance of that service but the performance of that service is a small part of our overall service content can generate on the nine and does that can appear on our social media or on our online pages generating significant views can appear on network news as well so that's what I mean by not looking at isolation but we are constantly looking at do we have the right balance of resources on the right platforms and services we've made very significant changes in the past few years to reinforce our online offer in particular seeing strong growth or strong performance of linear radio news the radio Scotland figures Louise mentions I think the other thing is the 700,000 for news on the channel that was the launch week of the channel and people obviously were curious that's a sliding scale that's not the example of change the overall figure the BBC linear TV everywhere is declining as all TV is declining as people are doing other things the key question is are you set up to be elsewhere as well yes we are, we've a strong position on iPlayer, we've a strong position on online so where we're seeing some change in growth, some change in performance on linear service like the channel and on BBC One it's being made up with iPlayer growth which is doubling consistently thank you can I change the topic to the subject of Gallic broadcasting the BBC Scotland has a very fruitful relationship with MG Alibah and I think contributes a lot in terms of programming, joint working and some funding but the vast majority of MG Alibah's funding comes from Scottish Government and it has effectively stayed flat for the last 10 years which means in real terms it's decreased quite significantly having experienced your own freeze in the licence fee for the next couple of years what observations do you have on the impact of a similar freeze if you like to put it like that on MG Alibah's output and maybe Alan might turn to you first yeah I think deputy conveners is right certainly to to kind of pick up on the fact that that harsh economic backdrop that I mentioned the 285 million effect of the licence fee free the fact that it's increased to over 400 has led to some very difficult choices across the BBC so whether that's kind of ceasing programmes whether it's as the director general talked about a thousand fewer hours so we've had to face up to financial reality but again I think I'm right in saying Steve that broadly our investment in Gallic programme has has grown over that period which shows I guess the value that we place in it and as you say the sort of synergies that we feel and again the financial value is the headline number on how we think the BBC can support Gallic broadcasting more you know there's other synergies if you look at the whole weight of the BBC and the type of content we produce in children's and I know the teams jointly work on trying to realise those synergies it's not just the financial values there's no doubt in any financial environment which is challenged then you have to make choices and what I do know and Steve and Louise can speak to this the teams work extremely well together there's really really sort of sharp practices in terms of making sure that the audiences that come to our Gallic programming you know still get great content and it is interesting to see the sort of viewing consumption numbers as they move so I think with any challenge I think then the onus is on the teams can we work differently can we maybe work smarter in the ways and you know if any team represents that it's the teams between MG Alba and BBC Scotland in providing Gallic broadcast yes I think and just sort of following through to your question Mr Cameron obviously the freezing funding to MG Alba I think as Alan said it's indicative of pressures on all businesses and all public bodies and of course MG Alba's funding is a matter for MG Alba off-con the regulator and the other funder behind that Scottish government by contrast the BBC over successive annual reports you've seen that again in a time financial situation we've increased our investment but I think the partnership I'm glad you said it was a fruitful one it really is a good example of different bodies coming together to create something as important and as special as BBC Alba you know we're renewing the partnership at the minute making sure we are to these broad questions making sure we have a good position on iPlayer good position on digital content creation and that we can make sure we have a strong TV offer but we're also being able to get Gallic language content including in what we call high impact genres like dramas out there to our audiences thank you one final quick question on another issue that's pertinent to the region I represent the Highlands and Islands is what happened last year around traditional music and piping programmes being cut which was quite an unhappy episode I have to say and this committee played a role in that in scrutinising what was happening but what work are you now carrying out as an organisation to improve transparency and communication with regards to that kind of decision making so I think there was a sense that participants weren't really consulted and audiences weren't really consulted I wondered if you had any comments on what you're doing looking to the future I've asked Louise will we sort of talk about the changes that were made and where we are I think it's actually nearly one year on on that yes sure none of those were easy decisions to make as Alan stated we're in a financial situation where budgets are down so we have pressure we're always in creative renewal anyway so in terms of those changes that we made that was a response to the fact that audiences are changing and we're trying to grow on the sound platform so in terms of the piping programme which is actually I don't know if you've listened but actually it's performing very well we joined two teams to make programmes where we had two teams making separate programmes so that was a way to be more efficient to get content at a better value for the audience but still maintaining our commitment to piping we still broadcast the world pipe bands and we've created a podcast so we make these changes but we try and make sure that we're still committed to the cultural values of Scotland and we're not always going for a big broad audience when there's a niche audience that we serve we aim to deliver in the most efficient way in terms of traditional music or portfolio of traditional music right across our services young traditional musician of the year is very very successful we've also launched two new competitions young classical musician of the year young jazz musician of the year and that was in response to the really thinking clearly about where is our purpose as the BBC and part of that purpose has to be about developing new talent and offering platforms for musicians in addition to that the classical music programme as you noted did change we have a fantastic orchestra that we didn't we didn't hear perform on Radio Scotland so we changed that programme to make sure that we did we did actually hear them so those decisions were very tricky to make but we did engage with stakeholders we did listen to the audience and it is against a backdrop of financial pressure but in addition to that I'm really pleased to say that on Burns Night we're going to have a fantastic offering where we're bringing together our young musicians we're featuring all the different genres of music coming together a real celebration of Scottish culture and that's where the BBC can really make impact for audiences I think to pick up on the last part of your question what learnings I think as we appeared before this committee last year I think one of the things was potentially yes consultation in the context of changing audiences doing different things and a licence fee I think the communication wasn't clear and even appearing before this committee I think people were hearing that all piping is going there will be no piping on Radio Scotland or Radio Nangill when the actual fact it was moving from as we said two separate teams making two separate programmes let's have one programme across both services I actually met the producer in Burness recently and he said creatively about what we do and the figures have been very strong so I think we didn't and this would be on me we explained to ourselves what we were actually doing across classical music piping and then obviously the jazz programme Thanks very much and sorry not to be able to join you although I'm speaking from a very snowy highland but I've got three questions of that I have a tendency to lump them all together but I think on this occasion I'm going to separate them and keep them short to pick up on the deputy convener's questions around MG Alipa I wanted to talk a little bit more about BBC Alipa and it's worth putting in context that according to your figures BBC Alipa reaches about 50% of the total gallant speaking population in contrast with BBC Scotland reaching 13% of the total population so considering its target group I would suggest that's quite successful and Mr Carson talked about the fact that the BBC joins with the committee in terms of concentrating on the public service it offers and I would say that this is particularly noticeable when it comes to Gallic output so I just wanted to put on record I think that the sincere thanks indeed from Gallic communities for the work that you do having said that clearly there's a question here about equity if you look at language programming across the UK and I'm led to believe that BBC Alipa sometimes gets bigger audiences than S4C despite obviously there being more Welsh speakers and the budget making BBC Alipa's budget look tidy in comparison with what is spent on Welsh language programming do you think that there is a question here of equity thank you I think the funding for S4C which as you note is considerably in advance of funding for many other services including Gallic services in the Gallic language that's never been a matter for the BBC S4C was set up I think over 40 years ago by the then UK Government and its funding levels from then and to now have been sets by UK Government and the BBC I'm glad you paid tribute to BBC Alipa and I had also an outreading on Gail as well and increasingly our online services they are and have always been and we marked the centenary as I mentioned in December there services in the Gallic language have always been a central part of the BBC offer in Scotland and speaking personally creatively we would be massively impoverished without those services and that ability to broadcast a new partnership to make sure we're continuing to broadcast across all genres obviously the BBC focus in terms of supply to BBC Alipa is around those crucial functions news, children language learning but it's incredibly important our Gallic services cover all genres from music to drama and comedy as well the commitment within the BBC Scotland budget to BBC Alipa and reading on Gail they are significant sums I think 10 million or 4 million in those accounts which have grown over the years those are significant investments as part of our services we're delighted to make them because these services are central to our offer in Scotland and supporting and I talked in this language of this nation is a key part of what we think our public service mission is in Scotland recognising the points that are made about S4C I suppose that the question still stands of equity there and in terms of the spend as a percentage of the total local spend I think it's about 8% and it's not to be dismissed by any stretch of the imagination but considering the content on BBC Alipa do you know whether the proportion of overall programming dedicated to repeat programming is increasing or decreasing that's really a question are they funded sufficiently to be able to ensure that there is fresh content yes I take your point I think two things there there's obviously fresh content on BBC Alipa with our new service every day I think going back to the very origins of BBC Alipa I think some 15 years ago now there's this ambition to have more Asian agents as we call them every day I think with the budget that we have and I think across Scotland not just the BBC I think we always have to box clever with our funding I think what we and the teams and across BBC Alipa create with the funding is exceptional I would slightly suggest the audiences are moving away from an older version of television which is that first drawn versus repeats if you think about it everything on iPlayers is a repeat people are increasingly looking beyond what's live on TV what's live on radio to consuming in other ways so I think again the direction of travel in Alba is thinking hard about programming which we do that will then have a longer life on iPlayer and that again where you have seen growth so I think really we're in all our services looking at the value of the overall catalogue the fact that iPlayer for example until again comparatively recently the iPlayer for regulatory reasons used to delete its content every 30 days and we're trying to compete against Netflix who would not delete their best programmes after 30 days the fact that we can now working with independent producers keep programmes including in the Gallic language and iPlayer that's increasingly where viewing is so first drawn versus repeat I think is becoming a question that audiences really are starting to to move away from Thanks for that I suppose there may be a balance output on TV itself in terms of the number of repeats would it be possible to come back to me with some of that information just in terms of whether you're noticing the proportion increase or decrease on the TV itself rather than on iPlayer I think the other point in that as well is we need to be careful that we don't just generate large volumes of ours of lower impact programming that it's better we think to say right well we might have slightly fewer hours in one genre but we're going to have some drama which is proportionally much more expensive but that drama can be distinctive it can be impactful it can actually serve a larger audience overall there would be a danger of spelling yourselves incredibly thin across a large volume of ours particularly when audiences are looking for bigger pieces on these catch-up and on demand services but I will come back to the committee Thank you so much I imagine it's an area where the committee will continue to focus on the Highlands and Islands MSPs on this committee so I have one last question if it's possible and I note in your report again something around the importance of the BBC looking again at the BBC across the UK and the presence across the UK and perhaps honing in BBC across Scotland I think I've got a bucket list of how many BBC studios to be interviewed at and across the Highlands I'm doing pretty well Lerwick, Inverness and so on are you committed to retaining these physical presences in slightly more of the rural areas? Yes and in fact reinforcing and extending our coverage right across Scotland through the bases we have we may move out of physical buildings every now and then some of the building will be refreshed but absolutely for tree, Inverness and so on, they are hugely important for us Although it is interesting that the lessons that we learned are news gather on a broadcaster through Covid about the contributions that you can make remotely we see that as clearly augmenting reaching people that we couldn't be before so Steve is right in terms of the importance of physical location but it's another area where technology quite a step forward Thank you I wonder if I could share something with you about the committee work in the context of Ms Forbes questions about those regional broadcast studios and Mr Bibby's comment about that really local broadcasting the committee were doing our cultural and communities inquiry and report and we went to the company and in the morning of meeting there with stakeholders I was interviewed in Kirkwall in the studio and I have to say that as a parliamentarian and someone who's worked in committees for a long time in this place the engagement we got from the local community from that single broadcast that was bringing the work of the parliament right into the communities was fantastic and while that was able to be done in that context if you're talking about a committee work in Glasgow or somewhere else the focus of the broadcast news in those areas but I do think just given that experience a reflection on that space and how the committee and the work of the parliament could be used in that way would be very helpful I'll move on and invite Mr Ruskell Thanks very much I've also had that experience on a committee visit to Orkney getting a lengthy interview from BBC Radio Orkney but I wanted to ask you about support for grassroots emerging artists the context here is across the UK we're seeing I think every single week at least one grassroots music venue shut so there's a real pressure and a declining opportunity for new artists to get heard both on the radio but also through live performance and I suppose the other context here is as we've already started to discuss the context of the cuts that you've put forward and you've now implemented in relation to jazz and classics music genres where the regular programming has been taken off there and I know that you've brought forward a number of other initiatives to try and fill that hole but I'm interested to know what your focus is on grassroots music, emerging artists given that we seem to be in a bit of a perfect storm in relation to support for grassroots music at the moment across the UK and I'm concerned about how that relates to Scotland as well I've noted our new competitions that we've launched which is absolutely in relation to your point I'm sure you're aware of BBC introducing it's a fantastic pan brand over the past few years we've invested in that show we've got two fantastic new presenters but not just on Radio Scotland but we've actually taken it on to BBC Scotland channel as well so we've got that multi-platform approach where we now run a Scottish Act of the Year programme annually so we're committed to keep doing that and I think what's brilliant about BBC introducing is that can span genres as well and then beyond that we've got a fantastic digital team who are working across all our arts and culture output to really capture some of the points you've made round about grassroots unheard musicians and giving them a bigger platform and what that team are doing brilliantly is making great work for BBC Scotland but they're also connecting with the wider BBC music portfolio with Radio 1 that's really the strategy with the money that we've got with the connections that we have and the experience within the team is to make sure that when we find these fantastic musicians we can get them out across the BBC and get them in a multi-platform approach and then finding those moments like our big burn celebration where we can bring them together in front of a broad BBC audience and celebrate that across the platforms As another example I think to your point about supporting live music emerging artists there's a strong commitment there looking specifically at the genre of jazz as I think you're aware Mr Ruskell so part of the announcement around the BBC audio base being set up and some titles moving to Scotland one of the key titles is jazz record requests which is one of the longest running programmes on radio 3 so to have that made by the new team then in Scotland albeit it's a request programme I think that is a significant move in itself but it does to your point need to be allied to the fact that we're targeting young jazz musicians we're working closely with the Conservatives we have other genres to help to develop new and emerging talent I noted that BBC Six Music's new music fix live series of events in Glasgow was really making some great listening blended in not just jazz but other genres for a different audience and of course all that is available on the sound but it comes back to that fundamental point that we were discussing last time in committee which is about the bandwidth the opportunity to be heard so if you listen to new music fix live great but that was four days of content I am interested in given where we are now particularly with the removal of jazz nights classics unwraps whether there is actually more or less airtime as a result of the changes that you've made for new emerging Scottish artists so the competition the jazz young jazz musician of the year programme was fantastic but it was like two hours so I am interested in just that metric of how much space there is now for those artists to get heard although some of the content that I am hearing is very good but it's like little nuggets I think part of that strategy also was to bring a genre like jazz into peak programming so and I could come back to you in detail on this but I just crossed our afternoon show which is obviously a peak programme for us in Radio Scotland we are now featuring more jazz talent Vic Galloway's show Vic Galloway's Edinburgh show features some fantastic artists we have key sessions and actually our burns line up in a week's time we have George Sesseill who's performing so I think that's really important as well we have lost a programme dedicated to those performers and I know that it's a really hard decision and I know lovers of that programme are all pointed but what we have done is made real effort across our peak programming to make sure we are representing that but if you would like me to come back to you in detail I'd be happy to write back to you where we featured musicians I think that would be useful and I think trying to understand the BBC's public broadcaster you're there to help create that platform and the point about live music venues is that that platform is declining so I'm not going to do it who else is so to understand really whether that platform is shrinking or getting bigger so it might be a specialist programme it might be getting particular genres or emerging artists into a whole range of other more mainstream programmes that's a decision for yourselves but is that platform getting bigger or smaller and I think highlighting the opportunities that are there and whether that's declining or not across genres absolutely which is one other point the classics programme has changed there's a classics programme on radio Scotland which actually features the Scottish Symphony Orchestra more which is a big positive and it's actually performing more strongly than the previous show okay, so that metrics around new emerging live I think that's the area where we're seeing the need to plan that platform rather than it to be stripped down and obviously we've drawn this sometimes blend as well with artists like Terry Kin so who we do feature who have been very prominent I feel confident that we are delivering on what we said we would deliver but we can come back with a bit more detail on that for you okay, I've just had a final question that's in relation to news coverage and the general election there's obviously a very different political context in Scotland you have two government parties that obviously don't stand candidates in England, Wales and Northern Ireland within the Scottish Parliament so I'm interested to know what your emerging thoughts are around how you're going to bring the general election alive in Scotland and reflect the particular nature of Scottish politics and the various political platforms that exist here exist a very different way across the rest of the UK absolutely, well of course at the moment there is there's no general election has been called or is under way so if you look back at our previous track record of covering elections BBC Scotland, BBC Scotland News and other news providers like STP News strong track record and making sure that Scotland's particular political cultures, political decisions are fully represented the process as we go into an elections the BBC has a hold to which we contribute the draft election guidelines for all sorts of coverage possibilities and parties then are free to comment on that before they're finalised so obviously BBC Scotland news and across the board will make sure we've got incredibly in-depth, detailed, fair, proportionate coverage across all our platforms and services of an upcoming general election are you looking at any particular innovative ways to improve to develop the way that you approach elections this time round or is it very much similar to previous? I think given the overall investments that again come back to the channel news point I think the overall investment that went into people and technology I think our 2021 coverage of elections at this parliament I think was a step change forward we are in active discussions obviously between our news teams about how we kind of move forward and build on that it's a hugely important public service the exercise of democracy, Scotland as you say part of this wider general election but with its own issues, its own candidates, its own parties and we're absolutely making sure we're covering that and it is a good challenge to make sure we're being innovative What's your question? Very quick question and I'm happy to offer this advice for a low fee whatsoever I'm sure if I were of increasing BBC's viewership figures it's the absurd situation that we have in Scotland where we can't see free to air international football matches or competitive ones involving our own national team but we can't see one in some other countries Would the BBC support the designation of international Scottish football matches as part of what are called the Crown Jewels? So because listed advances are called or a matter of public policy we're not free to offer an opinion on that what I would say though when Louise has been a huge investor in Scottish football our ambitions are what we currently do Obviously Scotland's qualification for the Euros and World Cups would be covered by the rights that the BBC currently has We don't have rights to everything but I think in context our commitment to Scottish football is strong Yes, it's a competitive rights market as you know but we've strong tracked record we just renewed our championship deal for four years obviously we broadcast the Scottish Cup we're also showing the Women's Cup and Saturday as well so we are we're an investor in football and we're also interested in any rights that come in the market we would absolutely have a look at that Obviously women's football women's sport generally a big part of what BBC Alba has been pioneering across our services and we work in partnership with BBC Alba on sport very very effectively and we mark it across the platforms to make sure that we get the best viewership for the women's game and the women's international as well that we share with BBC Alba this year I wonder if I could turn to Mr Ruskell's theme about offering opportunities for new talent coming through You mentioned Scene Scotland and one of the growing markets and successes in Scotland I recently visited Bute High School to see a project there with Education Scotland Scene Scotland on an animation course for young people so obviously skills is an issue in this area and the more successful we get there's only a certain pool of people available so I wondered if you had any and you mentioned working with the conservatory and the musicians there but what are you doing in terms of the diversity comments earlier on to open pathways for young people in Scotland to have a career in the BBC in these areas So there are various entry points into the BBC in terms of what we've been doing very successfully over the past few years we have a project called the social which is absolutely about working with new digital talent to create short form content over the past year the social team have been working with young people across Scotland from all different parts to create those pieces of content and actually been working with our news colleagues to try and get a wider platform for that content as well and what we've seen with the social having worked on it myself years ago we've got a really great hit rate of people who've worked on the social then going on to have a BBC career so that's quite a a sort of hands on way of developing new talent but beyond that we have a partnership with colleges across Scotland as well where we are delivering digital skills workshops the digital in house team are doing that through their social project and that's really about upskilling young people for future ways of working in television you know you don't just cut a programme anymore you think about what your social strategy is as well and we also have a fabulous outreach team called the lab and they work with schools and young groups all across Scotland and actually some of the young people that the lab have been working with are going to feature in our burns programme on the 25th of January so we're very very connected I would say in terms of how we're out working with young people and trying to make sure the BBC has an open door and then also we have other initiatives like the apprentices that Steve Bibby wants to talk more about I was just to build on what Louise said from a group perspective you know you've hit upon a really important point about what role should the BBC play in terms of encouraging new diverse talent into us so again from a BBC wide perspective we've got an ambition and a target to talk we talk about a thousand apprentices so the UK and Steve might give more flavour to that in terms of what that means from a Scotland perspective but we know that that's really really important intervention and the role that we can play maybe that no other broadcaster can in terms of encouraging those skills and development it's two areas so it would be new entrants, younger people but it's also staff apprenticeships in terms of where we are so we've made great progress on that and again those socio-economic targets in fact all of our diversity targets are a big flavour of how we recruit and how we attract into that scheme that Steve maybe you can give more from a Scotland perspective I think that as Louise has pointed out creatively across everything we do part of our ambition is how do we help bring people through where they're directly into the broadcast industry employment or into other parts of the creative sector we are always like to think of ourselves as the largest creative organisation in Scotland but not the only one we potentially are in terms of workforce at any given time BBC Scotland and the BBC in Scotland would have around 60 apprentices it's across the board in journalism technology I think that the current figure is around 66 so that's a significant investment in itself in training up primarily young people, they're not all young but primarily young people to careers in our industry in those practices you will have a lot of freelancers that's about to happen do you follow the fair work principles of the Scottish Government in terms of employment in Scotland I would be very confident we follow all employment practices in terms of our engagement with our employees and contractors okay I think that's exhausted our time with you this morning I thank you all for your attendance at committee and I suspend briefly to change witnesses for our next session welcome back for our third agenda item of today it's an evidence session with our final evidence session on our work on the budget and we're joined today by Angus Robertson MSP Cabinet Secretary for Constitution and External Affairs and Culture and Penelope Cooper, director of culture and major events of the Scottish Government a warm welcome to you both and I invite Mr Robertson to make a brief opening statement thank you very much convener and always a pleasure to be back to the committee and thank you for the opportunity to make some opening remarks and I'd firstly like to thank all the organisations who've given further evidence to the committee I've read and listened to their evidence with great interest and this evidence is clear that whilst the budget and the announcement of increasing culture funding by £100 million annually by 2028-29 are welcome there remains a need for longer term clarity and confidence and I'd like to take the opportunity to make more remarks to provide this I recognise that the additional £15.8 million next year will not rectify years of standstill funding that's only the starting point of a journey of three phases sustain, develop and innovate all of which are important aspects and I've heard referenced to by the sector in their evidence the £15.8 million next financial year begins the sustain phase and this is intended to be followed by a further £25 million next year with culture budgets £40.8 million higher in 2025-26 than now the budget will increase cumulatively until it is £100 million per annum higher by 2028-29 this additional resource allows us to move beyond simply sustaining the sector to developing it in innovative ways to support Scotland's creative sector and its contribution to our own wellbeing economy and international reputation in line with this I've recently confirmed to Creative Scotland that we will not direct the use of the additional £6.6 million provided to them in 24-25 but I expect them to use this money to help the sector to recover to be sustainable and to innovate I fully support their move towards multi-year funding and as a committee heard last week many if not most cultural organisations and I hope the announcement of the intention to provide an additional £25 million across the culture and arts sector next financial year will provide some certainty and I'll continue to argue the case for multi-year funding our refreshed action plan supports delivery of the culture strategy and was published alongside the budget in December this action plan prepared in close engagement with the sector including the national partnership for culture has the ambition to support the sector to move beyond its recovery phase as we implement these plans to sustain the sector we're also defining the work on the development of the culture and arts sector to provide confidence of the future I and the Scottish Government senior officials will be meeting with organisations and third sector partners to discuss this we will consider all aspects of the sector so that we can support freelancers to attract and retain their talent support community cultural projects in all authorities across Scotland support the national performing companies so that they can engage and tour with confidence across the country and around the world support festivals so that they can continue to be world class contribute to our economy and international reputation support the national collection so that they can innovate and enhance their collections and public experience support the screen sector and the remarkable growth in Scotland and the opportunities that that brings support the building in of resilience and financial stability across the sector and support the mainstreaming of culture across government and making progress on participation with the benefits across public services of health and wellbeing we have an intention of allowing all of Scotland's citizens the equal right to access culture and the wellbeing benefits that it brings as part of securing the future of the sector we will explore new funding streams in addition to Scottish Government funding I'm keen to progress consideration of the SNP's manifesto commitment around a percentage for the arts and to draw inspiration from international best practice such as Denmark's foundation model I'm aware of the campaign by the music venues trust regarding a stadium tax to support grassroots music venues my colleague the minister for culture, Europe and international development has encouraged the music venue trust to ask the cross-party group for music to convene an industry around table on this issue and I look forward to the outcome of those discussions I'm keen to develop further links with key philanthropists within Scotland and globally and I want Government networks internationally to support the export of Scottish culture and the sector's resilience and our international culture strategy soon to be published will support this ambition as Neil Bibby MSP raised last week Scottish Government is only part of the public sector funding picture many organisations receive money from local authorities and so the Scottish Government will work with the convention of Scottish local authorities to ensure that all local authorities understand the important role that culture plays and I look forward to working with partners in COSLA and individual authorities I conclude my opening remarks by saying that we are at a key turning point in terms of funding for culture and the arts in Scotland because I'm in a privileged position as other administrations in the United Kingdom are reducing their culture budgets we are restoring ours I have great ambitions for how the sector should grow and thrive and I want to have more opportunities for people across Scotland to experience the empowering potential of culture including through our community based programmes like culture collective I'm very focused on delivering on these ambitions that our additional funding allows and I want to work with the committee to develop suggestions that you have to contribute to this exciting opportunity and invite committee members and also cultural organisations themselves to come to me and my officials with ideas and suggestions about how we can fund the sector going forward thank you very much convener thank you very much cabinet secretary and thank you for your open statement which answered many of the questions that were asked by culture organisations last week so thank you for the clarity on those matters if I could just say you mentioned the percentage of the arts this week we have been discussing a visitor levy in the Parliament and the opportunity for local authorities to use that is there a worry that those are seen as fixals and the expectation on what those might be able to deliver is higher than what we could reasonably expect I don't think there's a single silver bullet with any of the different different organisations and including funding streams in helping the Scottish culture and arts sector thrive in a way that we all agree on having said that I think it's absolutely right that we look at all potential options for supporting the culture and arts sector as well as we can I think we have to acknowledge that in some respects or further ahead of us the visitor levy is a good example of that the overwhelming majority of countries across the European Union have such a thing and I'm not aware of any evidence that suggests that it has a detriment on tourism or tourism spend but has the benefit to municipalities to regions in bringing in additional funding I think the percentage for the arts similarly has the potential to provide additional funding there are other suggestions that we've discussed in committee and indeed in the chamber Mr Ruskell regularly brings up the issue of related to tickets as a potential other route to additional funding streams I've thought for quite a while that in addition to what government does in addition to what local government does in addition to these additional funding streams I think we also have an opportunity to work much more closely with people who through their generosity or the generosity of the trusts and foundations that they may be involved in that we can work much better together with the philanthropic sector both domestically and internationally and I look forward to exploring all of these things to your point convener none of them provide a single answer to the concerns that we know very well about the funding situation that the sector has been going through but I think they all potentially play a part in the answer to helping it to be as well funded as I hope we all agree it should be thank you cabinet secretary secretary can I invite Mr Ruskell thanks if I could come back to your comments about the additional 6.6 million and how that gets allocated what the priorities and themes are under that and I think the impression we got from Creative Scotland last week is that there's to be a discussion with government about what your priorities are I think your comments you made initially at this meeting this morning you're kind of saying well it's kind of up to Creative Scotland to come forward with their priorities I think you said your focus on recovery of the sector of sustainability of the sector and innovation can you say a little bit more about what where I mean it's not a vast amount of money but where you expect that focus to be because I think what we're hearing is that yes there's a need for all of those things but there is this kind of potential of the creative sector to really address wider societal needs and how much of that can really be 6.6 million so the first thing is I acknowledge the importance of these funds for Creative Scotland as they go through the significant funding change to multi-annual year funding and these national lottery reserves so this is the Scottish Government providing public funding to make up for a reduction in national lottery support intended to be provided for only three years and has now been extended but notwithstanding that I appreciate how important those funds are for Creative Scotland as part of their transitional planning both to the regularly funded organisations who will form part of the multi-annual year framework but then also to have financial means to be able to support wider parts of the creative and arts sector that will not form part of that multi-annual year funding approach I think they're right to want to make sure that that transition works well to make sure that there's not a cliff edge for organisations and venues and other projects that are supported by Creative Scotland and that's why I've been persuaded that given the alignment of priorities that I've set out from the Scottish Government point of view are shared by Creative Scotland to make sure that we are making this change I think that in the last time I gave evidence I drew attention to the fact that the third sector right across Scotland in particular but not just but the third sector in particular has been crying out for the multi-annual year approach to give financial certainty to reduce the amount of time that is spent at the moment on an annual basis applying for funding and Creative Scotland is absolutely at the vanguard of this change and that's why this issue of the £6.6 million from the last financial year which we gave a commitment and I gave a commitment in this committee to restore that I'm delighted to be giving evidence today that confirms that we are doing what I undertook that we would be doing but in addition to that there would be this additional year of £6.6 million it's worth noting significantly more than the shortfall of national lottery funding but notwithstanding that I accept, agree and value its importance as part of this transition and so I think to my mind this falls very much within the sustaining of the current arts and culture infrastructure as we begin to have more finance within the culture and arts sector which we have secured because of commitments made by the First Minister agreed by the Deputy First Minister and supported for me for quite a long time I think we can look then towards the more medium term for some of the ambitions that Mr Ruskell has has outlined but there's a footnote to this which I never hesitate to make which is quite important which is Creative Scotland is an arms length agency quite rightly so where we agree the general direction of travel and I've outlined our perspective on that but it is for them when it comes to individual projects to make the decisions about all of that I am pleased as I know they are to know that there is more money this year and that is not the case in other nations in the United Kingdom and that that commitment is significant and will be continuing to grow cumulatively over the next years OK Thanks for that detailed answer I think others might be interesting coming in on this as well but could I just go back again to your comments about the need to find additional sources of revenue and I suppose there's a question in my mind about whether there are pots of money out there which could be utilised to really dry this innovation and to sustain the cultural sector which are not being accessed and can I raise one is an understanding that within the Stirling and Clackmanshire city deals there's a vast amount of money that remains unspent the value of that money is going down every single year because it remains unspent and whether you believe that city deals in particular are focused enough on delivering cultural offering or if you think there are city deals or indeed other sources of funding which could be utilised to really support and bootstrap the initiatives that you're looking to drive forward with a 6.6 million because put us into context I think the unallocated spend within the Stirling and Clackmanshire city deal is over 15 million so just for Stirling and Clackmanshire alone it dwarfs what you have available in terms of revenue to put into creative Scotland so it feels like there are potentially sources of revenue out there or maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part that I am optimistic and upbeat about is that given where we have come from and you've taken considerable amounts of evidence on this from right across the culture sector which has illustrated the challenges that there have been because of Covid because of Covid recovery because of the wider economic situation and yes because in some cases flat past, flat budget settlements that there is a sense that we need to reimagine how we are going to approach our support which we agree across the parties we need to do and that's why I am very very keen that we take this opportunity not simply to say oh there's more money coming how are we going to use this are we simply going to apply more resource to support organisations as we have done up until now or are there new ways in which we can think about getting in additional resources but are there also additional ways in which we can support projects which have not yet been able to be funded and I'm not sure forgive me convener tell me to stop if I've already made this point to committee before I'm not sure I have but we have organisations and Creative Scotland is at the front of the queue in this who have a very very talented workforce who assess projects organisations, venues for funding and because of their funding envelope in certain years they'll be able to fund some but not all that's not because organisations are not worthy of support or venues are not worthy of investment it's because one has to operate within a funding envelope but in effect you have had a due diligence process gone through which says yep these are really really good projects they just don't work this year financially and so it seems to me that if there are ways by bringing in additional funding from elsewhere and absolutely why not take another look at how the culture infrastructure in Scotland can be supported in areas where there are city deals whether the money is being drawn down whether there are projects which might fall into the ambit of those deals which haven't yet can we support that should we do more I am absolutely keen for us to look at that I'm delighted that Penelope is taking notes at this stage because it's I mean I think we do want to be as imaginative as possible and I've said this in the chamber I'll say it again because the outside world is looking particularly from the sector I want to work with people across the committee and across this Parliament because there is no monopoly of good ideas or common sense in this respect and wherever there are suggestions of where there may be additional funding and we've talked in committee in the past about a percentage for the arts, about the visitor lefi about philanthropy and so city deals falls into that basket of where there might be additional support available but it's also wanting to make sure that we're not allowing projects to fall by the wayside one year to the next and we have we have organisations that do the due diligence do the work and that yes that's the culture particularly in the heritage sector because as committee members will well know we're trying to protect our built natural heritage of which we have a lot in Scotland we're trying to repair and restore many of them and there are people who want to support this and there's potential funding streams that can do that as well so in conclusion I think we'd now have this opportunity to think anew I don't think we can just carry on as before and so it behoves us all whether it's the government, whether it's Creator Scotland whether it's Historic Environment Scotland whether it's Screen Scotland whether it's any of these organisations we need to think about how we're doing what we're doing and think what should we be doing more of what might we do less of or differently and now is absolutely the right time for all of us to be thinking in those terms thanks miss Forbes Cabinet Secretary and I think it has been commented on by some of the those that were giving evidence previously that they are enormously relieved by the budget this year and one of the comments that's been made is around the tension between ensuring that there is resilience and sustainability within the sector versus being able to grow, develop and do new and fancy things and I wondered how you approach that question too in terms of ensuring for example from Creator Scotland's perspective the fact that they can continue to sustain the same organisations the RFOs on an ongoing basis which is what they've delivered this year thanks to the budget position versus taking a risk or taking a punt on something new so firstly in terms of relief in the sector that we are turning a corner in funding I mean a significant number of people in the sector have been very kind about the fact that we have been able to secure increased funding for culture whilst in other parts of government unfortunately because of budgetary constraints that is not the situation elsewhere and I'm grateful for the support of people in the sector in being able to make that case because I think it's very important that we do everything in our power to make sure that the sector thrives but to this point of the difference between sustaining and developing I think Ms Forbes echoes a point that Donald Cameron made in my last evidence session about organisations that may perform a very important community role but may not perhaps be on a trajectory to be either financially or self-sustaining but have this quite clearly important community role or wider role that's important for them to be supported and so I think I'm very, very alive to this yes it's a tension of sustaining what matters which may or may not be self-sustaining or profitable in a budgetary sense with developing the sector at large and that's why in my opening statement I underlined that I thought that one of them I'm trying to find the wording that I had here which was I'm very keen and I've spoken with Creative Scotland and I know that they're very keen to look at how we can help cultural and arts organisations build in resilience and financial sustainability and also capacity importantly to be able to thrive going forward and I think that's an area where we can do a lot more of because it's different to what might currently be offered by I don't know Skills Development Scotland or Scottish Enterprise in the wider economy but I think given the experience that we've gone through but the changing nature of society and its interaction with the culture and arts sector I think we need to help the sector being able to manage its own potential room for success more effectively and that's one of the areas where I think we need to be thinking a new about how we make how we make that happen and that's where joining up our capabilities financial but then also additional funding streams I think is going to be the answer to Ms Forbes Thank you very much and one other question that's indirectly linked but is the economic powerhouse of culture and we all know that Scotland is facing very challenging economic circumstances and we are looking for anything that makes us gives us a competitive edge and Scotland's culture does that in terms of international branding in terms of drawing tourists here and also in terms of the role it can play in some of the hardest to reach or more remote areas like Envy, Alipa in the western Isles and I wondered whether the increase this year is a recognition by the Government of just how critical our culture sector is to Scotland's economic performance so I agree entirely and if one wants to take only one example of this if one needed any evidence for it and we are getting increasing amounts of evidence about the economic impact of the culture sector if we look for example at the now defined benefits of the screen sector in Scotland so the film and television sector which a few years ago with the exception of the BBC the SDV Channel 4 we had very little screen sector footprint beyond that and we have gone to a situation where the annual GVA so the value added to the economy is now I think at around £650 million and if the trajectory continues it will be worth a billion pounds by 2030 so if you needed any and sorry more than 10,000 jobs and benefit incidentally felt so MGAlipa was brought up we have a footprint in the western Isles and in Inverness in relation to screen and broadcasting and from there especially in the Gallic language so that is but one example of the impact the economic impact that culture brings I think you've had very persuasive evidence from the likes of the festivals and obviously in this city and I speak with two hats of course as being the member of the Scottish Parliament for Central Edinburgh so it's very obvious to me but if one looks at what the festivals play as a role as an economic role I mean the artistic and cultural contribution is obvious to all but the economic value added of these festivals is massive and yes it's about Edinburgh festivals but on this day of all days where we see Celtic connections starting in Glasgow and first of the cities as well I think us now having a better understanding of the economic impact of these festivals is something else that we need to think about because we've had some tremendous interventions over recent years for example through the Expo and place funds which have supported festivals and there have been others but I think if we look at how festivals are supported in other countries I think it's absolutely right and proper that we look at how we're supporting all of that domestically which is why I go back to the point that I was making before about now is absolutely the right time for us to be looking at all of this and how it all fits together are we missing anything in our approach and is there more that we should be doing in certain and I'm very open to looking at that and working with our culture and art sector partners in that on the specific issue it's harder to reach geographies but also communities and that I would appreciate from a Gallic speaker is also a linguistic question I think we have done great things in recent years but undoubtedly there's more that we can do and I mean I've looked at an organisation and I've mentioned the before in evidence the culture collective and looking at what they have been able to deliver in two thirds of slightly more than two thirds of Scotland's local authorities I mean I really really want us to be able to support their reach right across the whole of the country because what they're able to do in terms of supporting especially freelancers and I think we all appreciate that that in many respects is one of the most tenuous parts of the culture and art sector in terms of income and reliable employment and all of that I think supporting funding streams and projects as are already tried and tested there are priorities for me and I would be wanting to know where do we currently not have that footprint and there are other MSP colleagues who regularly in the chamber raise the question about why not here or there and I think we have to test everything that we do to make sure that we are answering all of those questions and if there is unmet need and unmet demand we should be doing everything that we can to make sure that given this new approach that we are we're thinking about things from those perspectives as well thank you very much thank you can I invite Mr Cameron please thank you convener and welcome to the cabinet secretary you've given some clarity to Mark Ruskell in terms of the 6.6 million that is going to creative Scotland can I ask you about the some more longer term funding the pledge of £100 million towards culture there was I think some evidence last week that the the pledge had been made but then a a fraction had been delivered for the budget for 2024-25 and Laurie Anderson from culture counts said and I quote a serious amount of investment is needed now and from within the current budget not over a five year period the money is welcome but we need it now and our reflection is that the investment does not go far enough either in amount or pace in a sense of a need for clarity on that long term pledge are you able to give that clarity and what do you see as the Scottish Government's priorities for longer term funding of the culture sector beyond what you've already said in particular around obviously there are we describe this as a committee's a perfect storm there are some very immediate pressures and need to build resilience but what do you see in five years time that money going to there's a lot in that thank you for the question and look I understand that everybody who cares about the culture and art sector wants the maximum possible financial support as quickly as possible I get that and I don't think anybody would disagree or not understand why there is that demand and incidentally it's not unhelpful for colleagues in the arts and culture sector to be underlining why it's important to have these resources as quickly as possible having said that I think any fair minded person understanding the wider budget constraints would understand that the fact that we have not only secured a commitment to a very significant uplift within a short number of years that while other portfolio areas are seeing cuts and decline because of those budgetary constraints where if I look at comparative administrations I look for example I had a look this morning at the Welsh Government's budget lines in these areas where amongst other things the arts council of Wales being cut by 8.7% the national museums of Wales being cut by 6.3% creative Wales equivalent of creative Scotland being cut by 9.9% cadw which is the Welsh equivalent of historic environment Scotland being cut by 19.7% we are in a very different situation because we have a First Minister and a Deputy First Minister and Finance Secretary who were persuaded that we need to be in a significantly different place to the trajectory that we would have continued on where we to be having a flat budgetary settlement or a reduction as we are seeing in Wales or indeed the UK Government that cut the DCMS budget I think amounts to around 6% in contrast in Scotland the Scottish Government has made both a commitment to a significant uplift in funding has set out a roadmap of how we want to get there has made the first commitment for this year but has given an additional commitment for next year of an uplift of an additional £25 million on the way to there being a sustained annual increase of £100 million now to Mr Cameron's point about having the sense of priorities within that increasing spending envelope as we go forward I've tried to outline my priorities in my opening statement about what I think should be the north stars or the stars that we should be trying to align with as we increase funding but also be able to increase external funding as well and so whilst we have the intention of the £100 million rise the rise above £15 million this year the commitment for an additional on top of that £15 million increase of £25 million next year Mr Cameron knows that we don't budget three years ahead or four years ahead now I know that given everything that we've been talking about in terms of multi-annual year funding there is a tension in that is there not and I would wish to signal my ambition that cultured arts organisations whether they fall within the ambit of creative Scotland organisations but when one looks at national performing companies when one looks at national collections these are organisations that also need to have an understanding of what the financial horizon is more than one year in advance and I'm very open to thinking about how we can do that and that underlines the point that I was making that I would really welcome the committee's input on how do we manage to do that and because we have a relatively blank canvas in terms of the additional funding once we get through the sustain phase so the changes in Creative Scotland's multi-annual year funding immediate very existential challenges that we've seen to a number of organisations and venues that we will be able to safeguard through this year as a result that we're able to make sure that increased pay settlements in a time of inflation are fully met once we are able to move beyond that sustain phase and move into the develop and innovative phase that's where I want to be working in partnership with the sector with the committee, with individual MSP colleagues and political parties and a number of colleagues on that point and I don't think it's for me to say my plans for year 3 are in individual project terms before we have got the architecture of this next and I think really exciting opportunity this phase of with increased funding with reformed institutions reformed approach by the Government and our agencies in terms of how we do things and how we have an opportunity to be extremely supportive and helpful to the arts and culture sector because they deserve it and they should have it and they know they will have it from me and the Government I serve in Thank you for that Can I ask you about the Edinburgh Festival Fringe which you've already mentioned this morning Shona McCarthy of the Edinburgh Festival Fringe Society outlined the committee in evidence last week to gaps in funding It receives only £1 million in funding but is credited with bringing in £200 million of investment into Edinburgh and as you noted in your wearing another hat you are the MSP for the city Are you committed to retaining Edinburgh status as a festival city because the Scottish Government's funding decisions might suggest otherwise? First off Edinburgh has a deserved reputation as the festival's capital of the world not just because of the decades of festivals that we've had here in Scotland's capital city since 1947 The growth in festivals what was originally just the Edinburgh International Festival and then the Festival Fringe and then it's been added to and we have these amazing further raft of festivals from book festivals to children's festivals to film festivals and I could go on and I think it's absolutely right to match the challenge of a question like do we support and fund world class festivals with the same ambition as those who run them and that's why I said in my opening statement that one of my key priorities does relate to festivals and the question about are we doing everything that we can for them to continue to be I'm quoting myself to continue to be world class to contribute to our economy and our international reputation is there more that can be done? Absolutely I think that Mr Cameron will understand in relation to the Festival Fringe and the point that has been made by them it is that they were not they did not secure the status as being a regularly funded organisation by Creative Scotland some time ago and without wanting to labour the point too much I've always been very cautious about getting involved in individual Creative Scotland funding decisions but what I would say is that now given the fact that I'm signaling that I want us to be thinking about all of these things going forward I think they have to match our ambition as a Government as political parties as parliamentarians and these organisations themselves because one of the things that's changed in recent decades is not just the festivals themselves here it's festivals elsewhere and so while Edinburgh was garnering this international reputation in significant part because it was amongst the first there are other cities in other countries that have tremendous festivals and that is a good thing but we need to make sure that we do everything that we can that we don't rest on the laurels of seven decades of heritage history and that we are able to support our festivals and it's not just our Edinburgh festivals that are pointed out, we have tremendous festivals in our other great cities and the rest of the country too and we need to make sure that they are properly funded and supported in a number of other ways and there are other ways in which government can support this I've said in committee before that I'm very keen to make sure that our international network whether that's Scottish Government offices but wider than that whether it's my presence or visit Scotland presence or global scott network that they have a much more active role in the promotion of our culture sector internationally and that will be of benefit to the festivals as well Thank you Carina Thank you Good morning Cabinet Secretary to follow on from Donald Cameron's question that we heard last week evidence about the need for urgency and said the focus at the moment is literally about keeping the show on the road and the lights on and he went on much as at risk but in the light of indications of the Scottish Government with £100 million as I said we could spend that several times over and we want the government to go further and faster it feels as though we are on the cusp of being able to turn a corner if there is more urgency in how that money is deployed if there is more urgency you've not indicated you are going to go further in terms of the budget this year in terms of providing that urgency we heard time and time again last week about the need for clarity in terms of clarity up until now we've heard about 2020-25-26 being a minimum of £25 million I think this morning you didn't say a minimum you just confirmed £25 million would be the figure in 25-26 I wonder if you could clarify that In addition to the £15 million plus of this year so it's accumulative every year about the additional funding being in addition to the money that was committed the previous year so it's £40 million my point was up until now there was talk about a minimum of an extra £25 million coming on the line but I understand it's £25 million sorry can I stop you there I've just said it's £25 million in addition to the £15 million plus committed this year so that's £40 million plus but previously the indication was it would be a minimum of £25 million I've just confirmed again that it is cumulative so that is just over £40 million additional I think the point I was going to make is it would have been a minimum of £40 million if it was more than £25 million anyway in terms of the clarity that you're seeking to provide is being called for you've announced £100 million over the next five years when can people expect clarity in terms of the amount of money that will be available in 26-27 because on the one hand you're saying we can't provide clarity on multi-year budgets but on the other hand you've also announced £100 million over five years so there is a need for that clarity at least for 26-27 so for the first thing for the avoidance of any doubt I've now said it three or four times and so there should be no doubt about the clarity of the commitment that has been given A about the £100 million additional commitment but in terms of the route of getting there this year £15.8 million next year £25 million in addition to the plus £15.8 million so next year that will be an additional £40.8 million and then the two years after that that will be dependent on the budget discussions that take place in the usual way but if I think back to previous discussions where there was some sort of there was a sense from some colleagues about is this a real thing now this is a really real thing this isn't an aspiration we have in comparison to other governments in the United Kingdom including Labour run Wales who have cut their culture funding we have increased it unlike the UK government who have cut culture funding this year we are increasing it we've given the commitment now in terms Deputy First Minister did it in the budget statement about the £25 million additional in the next financial year as soon as I can I would want to be able to confirm about what then the subsequent years will deliver I totally understand that the front loading of funds is what the sector wants it's what I want absolutely it's what I argue for internally and I want this to happen as quickly as possible and it is correct to say and Ian Monroe is absolutely right to say that what we are able to do this year is very much within the sustain phase of the culture and arts recovery and then as we are able to secure these additional cumulative totals which will boost the culture and arts scene I think we will be able to support the sector in a much more significant way to develop and to innovate okay thanks for that answer on that the governance obviously pointing to an increase this year as you have a number of occasions but we know that the culture budget was cut last year and we also know that the culture budget is 6% smaller in new terms than it was in 2223 we've heard concerns last week about the future of organisations in the current funding crisis you'll have heard that as well we've also heard about cultural provision time and time again having to be cut back now Sam Donkley of the musicians union I think there's been a mixed response to the budget as a result of those figures he said that unfortunately I'm not sure the additional funding announced in the budget as welcome as it is will have the impact that we need it to have but at Scottish household survey talking about reduction in cultural participation and cultural activity so you've talked about rightly and I would agree with you on the importance of equal access to culture and you've also talked about the importance of sustaining cultural provision again I would agree with that I suppose the question is we're hearing concerns from the sector that cultural provision will not be sustained at current level you're talking about the importance of sustaining at current levels I would agree with that the question is will this budget sustain cultural activities and participation at current levels or not I totally understand the question that Mr Bibby is asking and people in the wider culture and arts sector who understandably want maximum resource as quickly as possible for the sector to thrive I totally understand that we do however need to understand the budgetary constraints in which the Scottish Government is operating under and the relative priority that has been attached to culture and the arts so in comparison in contrast with other Governments in the United Kingdom we're increasing culture spending and that is important not just as a down payment on the significant increase that has been committed to but given the actual cuts that are taking place elsewhere I think give creative Scotland amongst others the significant means to help us through this sustained period do I acknowledge that there are venues and organisations that will continue to be in financial distress who will require support over this financial year before additional funding is in place yes I do is there more that Government and Government agencies can do absolutely having said that if we look at specific examples of venues or events some are in the public realm some of them are not in the public realm which have had significant support from Creative Scotland or Screen Scotland take a look at the Film House take a look at the Edinburgh International Film Festival and others look at the support that we're providing to the VNA in Dundee we are intervening whether as the Scottish Government or Creative Scotland as Screen Scotland or other agencies through this sustained period and I am absolutely focused on us being able to do that would I like as Cabinet Secretary to have the additional £100 million in this financial year absolutely but what we have been able to do is secure additional culture funding whilst other Governments have been cutting it and we have secured additional commitments by the Government to what will be provided next year as a cumulative and additional support for culture and the arts and I will work tirelessly as my officials will Creative Scotland and other agencies in making sure that we get through this sustained period where there is financial distress until we are in a position with additional funding but also a renewed approach to culture and the arts administratively and yes financially as well as all hope it will do I really think it is important if we want to sustain cultural activity and cultural participation that we ensure that there is the right resource whatever that is in place and I do think it will be interesting to know if the Government have carried out an assessment on this current budget as to how the Government thinks it will impact on jobs, on venues on cultural participation and activity because we heard evidence last week from Franheigia, the Edinburgh festival about the need for levels investment to match the levels of ambition that we have Laurie Anderson of culture counts you will be aware we have had a culture and communities inquiry Laurie Anderson of culture counts told us that since the committee conducted its pre-budget scrutiny community leisure UK has conducted its membership as reported that 60% of Scottish members of the budget deficit and 29% of members are preparing for closures at a local level. We know 83 community facilities including dozens of libraries that closed between 2009 and 2020 that there has been a 16% cut in funding over that period for example by local councils in library spend, we know how significant that is. I noticed earlier you said you want to speak with COSR and ensure they understand the importance role of culture plays I am sure they are well aware of the important role that culture plays but the funding that they have is being cut and cut and their core revenue funding is set to be cut by 63 million pounds so in the interest of the importance of sustaining cultural services how can in addition to the national organisation sustain the cultural services and the current services how do you expect councils to sustain cultural venues and keep cultural venues open for so many of them when their funding is being cut I think that it is absolutely right that we are fully aware that responsibility for the supportive culture is not just the responsibility of the Scottish Government or Scottish Government agencies and working in partnership with local government colleagues is going to be key moving forward on this and yes it is about venues but yes it is about projects one could point to the likes of sustainment as an example where we are very keen that there is as much access through tremendous projects likes of sustainment and there is a risk that local authorities take decisions that they will no longer continue to fund organisations or venues or facilities and that is very much something that I want to talk about with local authority partners my colleague Christina McKelvie has already held discussions with culture leads I'll be meeting the president of the convention of Scottish local authorities next week when we are both in Brussels and these are the kind of things that we're going to be talking about and it is only by working in partnership that we are going to be able to get ourselves through the sustain phase and get ourselves into the better funding scenario that we are moving towards and I think it is only through that partnership approach that we are going to see the success that we want to have right across the country I haven't met a single person in local government that doesn't want to be excellent cultural provision in their cultural in their local government area and so I think that relationship is going to be key going forward and I'm sure my colleagues with finance responsibilities would point to the funding and support of local government so that decisions can be made at a local level and the responsibility for those things that we supported at a national level but it's only by working together that we're going to be able to get through this phase and get into the next phase and I look forward to doing that with the convention of Scottish local authorities and colleagues at individual councils thank you I'm a wee bit conscious of time we do have a private agenda item this morning but I will now move to questions from Mr Stewart thank you the increased money is definitely welcome and your ambitions are also very welcome to sustain, develop and innovate these are fundamental there's no question about that at all but there have and continues to be some criticism from stakeholders we've heard that over the period of time we've been taking evidence that there's a misalignment between what the Scottish government's culture strategy is and then how that reference to the sector and the funding that the sector receives that there doesn't seem to be a clear sense of how the strategy informs the budget process do you accept that as a criticism from the sector and then when we look at what you've talked about today that we can't continue the way we are we need to be thinking and I'm not disagreeing with any of the potential opportunities that we would change and develop the sector and support it for the future but once again we already know and you've said this today already that local government don't always have the priority there the need, the financial resource so they may have that ambition but they cannot and may not be able to fulfil that without their being a much more strategic approach as to how the culture strategy and the budgetary decisions actually manage together so firstly I'm delighted by the welcome from Alexander Stewart for the additional funding and that's welcome because I think part of what I think all of us have a role to play is help giving the sector confidence about where we are going about how we are going to get there and the expeditious challenge of making this happen as quickly as possible so it is in alignment with strategies and plans and ambitions is absolutely at the heart of where my thinking is and I will no doubt be back before the committee and I will be asked repeatedly about all of that of course there is always a question of matching up strategies and plans with the ability to deliver the industry of being able to do so and one would have to have had one's head in the sand to not understand that we are this year in the most distressed financial situation in devolved government since the beginning of devolution this is not a uniquely Scottish situation if I was my Welsh colleague or my Northern Irish colleague were there one in place at the present time they would say exactly the same thing opening up a discussion which is not the role of this hearing this morning convener about UK funding and the ability of the Scottish Government the Welsh Government Northern Irish Executive to deal with spending constraints we have to deal with the constraints that we have and while I totally understand and I've said it a number of times people saying we need that funding that has been committed to today I think again all fair-minded people realising that we are one of the limited areas of government that has been able to secure additional funding will appreciate that the down payment has been made on that additional funding that I will be working night and day to make sure that we maximise that committed funding as quickly as we possibly can because we want to deliver on these strategies, on these plans, on the ambition that we all have so we have a thriving culture sector and Mr Stewart like Mr Bibby before is absolutely right to say that it is only by partnership working yes with local government but yes also with the agencies that are involved and other partners to make sure that there is no misalignment and I'm confident that we can do that there is enormous goodwill out there I have to say there is a very good working relationship between government, its agencies and the sector there are roundtables and meetings regularly we are very well informed about what people's needs, their interests, their concerns, their expectations are we know that we also work very very hard to make sure that we understand where there is financial distress to work out where one could intervene and should intervene to make sure that we are sustaining the culture and arts footprint in Scotland but also then moving on to that next stage of how we can help them to succeed so I'm grateful for the welcome I agree that we want to make sure that we have the funding to match the ambition there have been very public commitments made by the Deputy First Minister and Finance Minister by myself I gave commitments to this committee I have fulfilled them in relation to this forthcoming financial year in relation to Create of Scotland an area where doubt was cast on that happening and delighted that we are delivering exactly on the commitments that we gave and we will in exactly the same way we will deliver on the commitments that we have made to the uplift in culture spending but I want to go beyond that forgive me if I've already told this vignette by Danish culture minister opposite number we talked about the funding of culture in Denmark and he talked about the significant amount that's allocated by government and said how significant that was and then went on to talk about the amount of money that was then dispersed across the arts and culture sector through foundations because in Denmark it's law that companies over a certain size have a foundation and they have a requirement for other things culture in the arts so if you're a large Danish company like Carlsberg or Mersk or anybody else you have a foundation it supports culture in the arts and the amount of money that they are able to inject in addition to government resources is eye watering which is why I mentioned in my opening statement we need to look at other countries and other places who have a well established ways of making sure that one is fulfilling strategy plans, ambitions and all the rest of it as quickly as we can so that's why I've said it before I'll say it again any ideas that people have got please share that with the committee share it with myself with officials, with creative Scotland and others and there is an open door and we are in this together it is the country's culture is the country's arts sector government does not do culture but government has the ability to help to support to convene and yes to finance and we will do as much as we can but I think there is co-ownership in this of making sure that together with the sector itself that we are in the place that we want to be just to say that from my point of view I don't think there is a shared understanding in the sector about the pressures in terms of finance I don't think there is one in this committee either by the way but I think given examples which have been mentioned including the last one with Denmark this came up at a previous meeting of the committee where I had asked the representatives in the sector to come back with meaningful comparisons not with the independent countries who have less constraints in relation to their budgets but with devolved and have had no response in the sector so far and I'm interested though as you mentioned the constructive relationships that you have with different partners in the sector I'm not sure I see that with Creative Scotland and if I can mention a couple of points and get your view on it first of all I mentioned last week to Creative Scotland I attended events before Christmas actually with the culture minister where the representative from Creative Scotland felt it necessary to lambast the Scottish government publicly to the hundreds of people that were in attendance at the meeting made contrast between the press release that was put out by Creative Scotland when they termed the £6.6 million cut which we now know is backfilling a shortfall from the national lottery and the contrast with last week when it was being reinstated which was passed without virtually any comment I think there's a real issue about Creative Scotland and their approach to the government so I wonder if the cabinet secretary could say I'm sure he will say it's a very constructive relationship but I would say that that's not the evidence that I'm seeing so is he aware of any tensions with Creative Scotland? I've always taken the view that it's really important to try and understand the perspectives of different people and different organisations and that's why when I look at Creative Scotland illustrating the demand that there is in the culture and art sector so asking organisation at how much money you would like in an ideal world and then you get a massive total of demand of course that illustrates the point for an organisation like Creative Scotland that they would like the maximum possible funding settlement I understand that, that's what they want and I also understand that whether it's Creative Scotland or it is individual organisations or venues or whatever who do receive support directly from the government or through agencies that people do need to illustrate the situation and the extremity of the situation as a way of securing support it is a very challenging situation so the first thing I would like to say is I do understand why Creative Scotland and its board members are very keen to make sure that they have the funding that they require to go through this massive change programme for multi-year funding which is why I've been very empathetic in my opening statement and in the initial questions given to the committee around what they're doing at the present time so I work very well with Ian Monroe and colleagues at Creative Scotland I work very well with Isabel Davis and colleagues at Screen Scotland I could say the same for Historic Environment Scotland and our national collections and our national performing companies I don't have a problem with any of that Does one want to call it a creative tension? Because the very nature of the Scottish Government dispenses funds, organisations receive them, they want as much as possible I understand that and given the constraints people have been wanting to gain as much of a public understanding but also an understanding in government of how money is required but where I will definitely agree is with I still think there is a profound lack of understanding about the extent of financial constraint that there is in devolved administrations in the United Kingdom it is unprecedented what I have not heard a single person contribute a suggestion from whether it is members of the Scottish Parliament or whether it is agencies or whether it is journalists or anybody else is if one wants additional means to be found in this year where is it coming from and nobody, bar nobody has come up with a suggestion on that front, not one so what we have been able to do this year is make the case internally it is the down payment going forward and no doubt everybody that is in receipt and funding will want to make sure that they have a part of that and as I have talked about at some length and no doubt you will have me back convener to talk about how does this new approach how is this new approach going to work from the perspective of the Government and our agencies and beyond we are going to have to be in a new place and the people that I am working with in Crate of Scotland, yes and other agencies is good enough and is on the basis of trust of a trust good enough to be able to deliver all of that I can say that from my point of view I understand what the cabinet secretary is saying but that idea of trust, consistency and honesty on the part of Crate of Scotland I think is the area of an issue the second point that I was going to raise was and it goes to the cabinet secretary's point about new sources of finance I raised the issue of innovation which I think I had said I hadn't seen much evidence of except for the V&A in Dundee and I was assured that they would get back in touch with ideas and some of those have come back in to be fair if you get to read those but rather ask a question about that because I know time is very short can I just be very cheekily asked the question I asked earlier on of the BBC does the Scottish Government support the allocation of the status of crown jewels to the carrying of live Scottish national football matches in Scotland speaking for myself I have to say I find it very hard to understand why we do not have national sporting matches and in this case specifically football on on our public broadcasters I cannot understand why that is not the case why is it that people need to subscribe to channels that you have never heard of and pay money to watch your national team perform particularly when it is doing as well as it is doing is beyond me the difference in approach that the BBC has to the coverage of England in particular in this respect is there for everybody to see why is that I do not understand that and I say that as Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Sport is an important part of our national culture and frankly it behoves our public sector broadcasters to look at the coverage of our national sports and ask ourselves why would one treat one nation differently in this respect in the UK to others and that is not an excuse for ignoring the coverage of Scotland football matches A final Mr Bibby is this a really small question please and I really succinct very small question the cabinet secretary said that he had any suggestions from opposition MSPs about how money could be better spent to reallocate money into the culture portfolio he will be aware that concerns of opposition MSPs in relation to the amount of money are spending on independence white papers which are not even convincing the SNP of the case for independence and I will just remind them of that alternative proposal for money that has been made to the cabinet secretary A that is not a sensible suggestion given that a majority has been elected to the Scottish Parliament with a mandate to pursue Scotland's independence Secondly in the grand scheme of the budgets that we are talking about it is minute and is absolutely no serious contribution whatsoever to the scale of the funding challenge that we have to develop Scotland and if that is the limit of ambition to being able to reallocate money and deliver public services in Scotland we are in real trouble I think we need to bring proceedings to a close Thank you very much for attending today Can I ask you please to vacate the room quickly as we do have another agenda item and I will be moving as quickly as we can to that in a closed session