 It's such a privilege to be here. It's my first year at a Steubenwald conference because 30 years ago, when the conference started, I was turning 80s a few thousand miles east of here. So as Scott mentioned, I grew up in Turkey. And I wanted to begin my talk to give a little bit of a background about Turkey because it's kind of a country that's stuck in between east and west. Turkey is predominantly Muslim over 99% as Kurtis mentioned on Friday night. And yet at the same time, if you visited Turkey, there's a lot of Western elements. It's not like the other Muslim countries because after the First World War when the Ottoman Empire collapsed, the founder of modern Turkey wanted to westernize the country because he thought that he thought that the empire collapsed because the country didn't keep up with the Western technology and innovation. I don't think he was Muslim himself, but he also understood that for the Turkish national identity to stay strong, there needed to be a religious element. So what happened is that he imposed all these Western ideals of liaisism, which is like the French secularism where the state oversees the religion. And he forced people to wear the Western garb. Nobody was allowed to cover their heads or wear the Ottoman male headgear fez. And then he used to use the Turkish, I mean Arabic alphabet, Turkish is a language on its own, but we just used the Arabic script to write. So he changed that to the Latin script. So Turkish alphabet is like similar to the English one with a few extra funny looking letters with dots and stuff. So there was this like outwardly change within the country's appearance. But at the same time, of course, Turks have been Muslims for a long, long time. And of course that stayed as the major part of the country. So as growing up, this meant that for me, we went to a school and everybody wears uniforms there. In the winter, we went to the school and learned about all these Western ideals of equality of women and men and secularism again and read about, kind of read about Western history with kind of a favor, favoring of course the Ottoman history. So and then in the summers, we all wore our headscarves as girls and long sleeves, long skirts and went to the local mosque to learn how to read the Qur'an in Arabic. So it was kind of this being stuck in between two worlds. So what this also meant within the society or within life is that for me in my family, like my mother worked a full-time job, but she was still supposed to come home, cook three courses of meal every day and wash the dishes, do the laundry and all that stuff. So she was getting like the worst of the Western ideals of feminism and the worst of the Muslim world of still she needs to be in charge of everything. And another aspect of this, this Muslim social structure was that the men was still over women. If you were there, I kind of talked about this idea of servile fear and filial fear. So because Allah is the master of the Muslim that trickles down to the society, right? So then the man is a master of women. So it's not like the way we see marriage in Christianity. It's a completely different understanding of marriage. So my parents' marriage has always been rocky because my mother is really stressed out and my father still has all these expectations. And at the same time, my father happened to like women a lot. Yeah. So what happened is, I mean, this is very common in Muslim countries and even in Turkey, it's illegal to marry more than one woman, the Western ideals that they got from Christianity, of course. But if a man has a mistress or cheats on his wife without making a really big deal out of it, it's fine. Like as a wife, you're supposed to turn a blind eye and just kind of let it happen. Because again, the Muslim understanding of sexuality is completely different than what the church teaches. It's like, I don't know if you've heard that it's men don't have much control over their urges. So they are going to find a way to satisfy that. And as women, you're supposed to be OK with it. And so my mother was for a long time. She was completely OK with it. And of course, I'm growing up in this turmoil, but I don't know anything else. This is all I know. All I am taught is Islam. And so I go to the mosque. I memorized all the Arabic prayers. And I learned how to read the Quran in Arabic. And I'm very studious by nature. So I just wanted to learn more and more about this religion that's really important. My parents were never observant. My mom used to and still does fast during Ramadan. But that was too much for my father. So he just didn't observe any. But he's still Muslim, right? Like no manila Muslim. They're just religion is a very, very important part of your identity, regardless of how much you practice. So I'm growing up in this, never once ever questioning it. And one of the things that, again, I talked yesterday, this idea of servile fear. Because in Islam, it is thought that Allah is the ultimate master. So servile fear is this fear this servant feels against his master because of fear of punishment. It's not necessarily evil because there is a little bit of that in all of us. We fear hell. And sometimes we feel contrition because of that. And that's imperfect. But the perfect contrition is that we fear, which is the filial fear. We fear disappointing our father in heaven. So servile fear is supposed to evolve into this filial fear slowly, like it does with my children. My toddler wants to touch the stove. And I say no. And she looks at me. She's like, wow, this lady is really big. And I think she can take me. So I better listen. Or she still goes and touches the stove and gets a good burn. But so hopefully the former. But I hope that as she grows up, she's going to learn that, hey, this lady really, really loves me and wants the best for me. And I don't want to disappoint her. I don't want to make her sad. So then she listens from that filial fear. And love. But in Islam, it's unthinkable that God is the father. Again, I talked about it for a while yesterday. So I don't want to repeat myself. So it never turns into this wonderful filial fear. So one of the, I open this because this is so hard to explain to Western mind because you grow up blessed with this idea that you have freedom. You can question. And you are not bound with these. But Muslims grow up with this intense fear from an early age. But it's like being fish, right? Like all you know is water. Like you can't imagine the desert or the land. This is all you know. So I want to give you a concrete example as a kid. You're not so, you're taught that you're not ever supposed to try to picture or imagine how Allah looks like. So I think I was around seven. And one day I'm laying in bed and thinking about God, Allah. And I tried to imagine him as like this fluffy, cloudy kind of being with rainbow eyes. And as I'm doing this, suddenly I was struck with this intense fear because I realized what I was doing. I'm like, oh no, he's going to punish me, right? So I couldn't sleep that night. And I wake up, I'm walking to school. And we lived by a creek. And there was this really big boulders by the creek. And I thought, oh man, those are kids like me who trade to imagine Allah. And they were turned into stone. I was paralyzed with fear for days. And I was afraid to walk by the creek, because I'm like, he's going to turn me into stone. So imagine this. As an early age, this becomes part of your being. So you never ever question, which is one of the biggest hurdles to the conversion of Muslims. So there is this wall of fear that you put up as you grow up. And it almost takes this really traumatic event or something really big in your life to crack that wall. Because once you start questioning Islam, it's kind of like a house of card. It falls apart. But bringing these people to the point of that questioning is very hard. And for me, that crack came when my parents decided to divorce, because my father was like, well, you know, it's really hard to go to another house and cheat on my wife. How about I take another wife who is much younger and then she'll be here all day, right? So of course, my mother kind of drew the line there. And they got a divorce. And as you can imagine, it was really, really messy. So around 11 or so when this happened, and I was really attached to my father. And I had always had a rocky relationship with my mother, because she was under so much pressure. Now, looking back, I understand. But as a kid, you don't understand that. So it was a very messy divorce. There was a lot of fights and physical abuse. It was just, it was really, really messy. And it shook the ground out under me. And, you know, no matter what they say, how resilient children are, all we know in our selfishness is that the world revolves around us. And one of the main parts of that world is our family. So my father left after telling me that he would never leave us the following day he left and we didn't hear anything from him for years and years. So I realized that, hey, they always told me that they loved me, but now one is in deep depression and one is completely gone. Clearly it was a lie. The fact that they loved me was a lie. What else did they lie about, right? So that was the, so I'm 11 years old again. And up until now, I had never again questioned Islam. And for the, my first instinct was to go pray more. But the more I prayed, the more I felt like there was not nobody listening and nothing on the other side of darkness. And then I'm like, maybe this was a lie too. Like they always told me that this was the truth, but maybe this was a lie too. So that's the very first time at that age I started to read the Quran in Turkish. And then I was really kind of shocked. First of all, it's very hard to read. So it's not like the Bible, it's not a, it doesn't have stories and an order. It's kind of like little, like bits and pieces of homilies, bits and pieces of stories from Judaism. So it's very hard to read, but since it's our holy book, I read it in Turkish. I'm like, this just doesn't make sense. And then I went and read Mohammed's life from the Hadith. Because what happens is we learn about Islam from, like it's passed down from the Imam or our families or our teachers, so nobody goes to the Quran and then just reads the Quran or the Hadith for themselves unless you're trying to become like a scholar. So I read it and I realized this guy, Mohammed, is not somebody that I'd like to follow. Because first of all, I don't have the, physical properties to follow him properly because you look at his life, he just, he was lustful, he loved women, the way he treated his son-in-law and just, it was appalling the way women were treated in Islam. And then we were always taught that Muslims always waged war of defense. So they never attacked anybody, so right? We were always on the right and I'm reading this, I'm like, this just doesn't look like it. Sure, these people were just sitting there, minding their own business and when Mohammed and his armies came and conquered him. So like I see this like really violent man who is power hungry and lustful, I'm like, there is no way I want to follow this guy. So that was the crack in my wall and I kind of decided not to be a Muslim anymore. Of course, growing up as a Muslim, one of the first things you're taught is that Christians changed the Bible and declared Jesus as God, where he had claimed ever no such thing. So I don't know why I never questioned it back then, but I didn't, I thought like Judaism, Christianity, all of that was all that similar kind of nonsense, right? I just didn't know well enough. So I kind of pushed all kind of religion aside. So like by 12 or so, I am an atheist now. So I didn't quite, it was more like rejection of religion rather than really thinking and embracing atheism. So what happened is my family was the only, my parents were the only divorced parents I knew in my school. So I felt very odd and ostracized. And now as an atheist, then again, I felt like, I don't have any friends, I don't have anybody. But eventually I found a couple other friends whose, excuse me, whose parents were communists. So I kind of bonded with them. So we had this like little weird rag tag group that got drunk on Saturdays at age 12 and then played chess and read Russian classics. Like it was just like this really weird combination, just geek and drunkenness. We were just very confused. So I started to read a lot more about kind of science became my God. We were reading all the classics and trying to understand. So, but weirdly, I think I was 13 when Lord of the Rings was translated into Turkish. And we just, that was one of the things we read. So the Lord still kind of puts little bits of graces as you travel. So anyway, throughout middle school and high school, I completely lost any moral compass whatsoever I had. So I drank a lot and I'm glad that I grew up in Turkey and not in America. I think I would be a drug addict by the time I finished high school. So I drank a lot and then we read a lot. Again, played chess, had geeky conversations and all that. And I had this little rag talk group, but I was also leading a very, very simple and destructive life, even though no drugs. It was still very destructive. So all I wanted to do was to get out of this little town I lived and I did. I went to college, but in Turkey, it's very community and family oriented. So when you go to college, your parents support you throughout college. So it's like high school basically, but in a different town. But of course, my family was so broken, so messed up that I didn't have anybody. So I had to work and I was the only one that worked in my class. So I'm like, how do you find work that I come out is full time study? So one day I'm waiting at the bus stop and I'm thinking, okay, how am I gonna find the job? And I saw this little flyer on the bus stop. He says, an American lady is looking for a college student who speaks English to teach her Turkish. So my English wasn't this good, but I had started to learn when I was 12, so I spoke well enough. But I looked at the flyer, I was like, with my luck, she's already found somebody. So I went about my day and got home at night. So it's around like 10 o'clock and I'm in my pajamas and slippers sitting and I hear this voice. He says, go get the number, go get the number. Like it's 10, but it's just this nagging in my head won't stop, which I didn't know who he was back then, but we all know who he is now. So I'm like fine, so I just like shuffle to the bus stop in my slippers, write the number down. And it's like a big no-no to call anybody after nine in Turkey, but the voice won't stop. So like I called this lady and she hadn't found anybody. She's like, why don't you come and we'll have an interview. So I show up there at the following day. So she opens the door. First of all, she's not blonde, which I'm like, what kind of American is not blonde? And are you saying the Hollywood movies have been lying to me? I'm like, where is the miniskirt and the cleavage lady? So she opens, she's like modestly dressed and smile on her head. She opens and there is this, this should tell something. I changed all the names to protect their lives back there, but she's named Therese in my book. So Therese opens the door and right across, like this is the main door, there's a Bible verse cross stitched on her wall in a Muslim country. So like this lady cleared, isn't that right? And it's from the book of Acts. It says, there's no salvation under heaven, except by his name. I'm like, oh, great, she's Christian. I don't even know how I was, you know, like, okay. So we go in, we have a chat and so she hires me. And so we start talking. By this time, I want you to remember that I am 19 years old and know everything. So I'm like, I'm going to help this lady who believes in God and fair tales and such to come to the light of truth. So like, I've never been a relativist by the grace of God. And I was like, okay, you know what? So truth is like, my truth is dark, right? You know, I am very sarcastic, which changed a little bit since then. But it's dark and miserable, but it's truth, right? I mean, it doesn't matter if it's dark and miserable if it's the truth. And you know, so like, I will help you find this truth lady. So little did I know, she grew up in an atheist home, went to a really prominent college here in America. And then she converted while she was in college and she and her husband had really prosperous good lives here and she felt the call to serve as missionaries in Muslim countries. So they had just moved to Turkey not long ago when I met her. So of course, I don't know any of these. So we start studying and she doesn't even have to start talking about Christianity because I'm like, let me help you with that. So I am the one who opens the conversation and she was wonderful patient and read a lot and very knowledgeable, like exactly somebody I needed. So from the first time we met for three and a half years, Therese and I met three times a week, two and a half hours a day for three and a half years. And I don't think we've ever talked anything other than God, the Bible. I read the Bible from cover to cover in Turkish, this is one of the things, the ways they introduced like you kind of learn Turkish through reading the Bible. So of course, slowly I am being exposed to this new God in a way. And again, like yesterday I mentioned, I'm not saying we believe in completely different gods but the way Islam understand God is very, very different than God, the Father. So for three years, she and I talk and then I realize that this God she's talking about is completely different. One of the things that always bothered me as I read as this, you know, this is just geeky 80s, that how fine tuned the universe is to life on earth. Like the more you read, like it's, you know, if it was a little bit off, like the world wouldn't, the earth wouldn't exist or human life wouldn't exist. Like it was just perfectly fine tuned. And somehow all these scientists who didn't believe in God expected consistency across the universe. And I'm like, there's a void between all these galaxies, like how do we know physics or chemistry work the same? Why couldn't it be completely different? But of course, they believe it's consistent without knowing that it is created by a consistent loving being, right? So those and then in the beauty, even though I believe that the sunset, the beauty of sunset was created by, you know, the accidental sun rays and the interaction of clouds and humidity or whatever, like you're just, you can't get rid of this feeling that it's just painted by somebody almost, right? Like, you know, the beauty in the nature is just so overwhelming sometimes. But of course, like I'm pushing those aside, but as I'm talking to Therese about this God who loves truth and beauty, it's just started to slowly make sense, which I did not like. So I would just get so mad, but I wasn't a very well thought out, you know, 80s, as I said, and I'm like, look somebody probably thought about this. So I would just go home and just try to read up and find objections, but you can't find an objection to beauty or how fine-tuned the, you know, the universe is. So slowly I started to see, and she was the first pro-life woman I've met. And again, like I share about my own experiences, you know, during the dark years of high school and college, I had never met anybody pro-life because Islam isn't necessarily pro-life. Like in Turkey, abortion is allowed to a certain, I think it's still 10 weeks. They say life begins when the quickening happens. Like that's when Allah infuses the body with soul. So she was the first pro-life I met, but she also has made sense because like the more I read about, you know, anatomy and science, you realize like the heart starts beating so early, why can't he be a person? So all of these things that she talked about started to really make sense. And she was very, like it's just was almost like her belief in God was very like holistic and consistent. And I realized that God could exist, which is a big deal, right? You know, again, Curtis talked about Pascal's wager, I mean, if God exists and you don't believe in him, you're in big trouble. And if God exists, then I'm missing a really, really big truth. And if God exists, there's an eternal life and my life on this earth is like a blip, right? Like nothing else matters really if God exists. And I mean, if it doesn't exist, like there isn't much you're gonna lose, you know, you'll live that as a stupid Christian, like what's gonna happen, you know? So, but I mean, I'm not thinking that, but I'm thinking that like, okay, what I believe that's truth doesn't seem very true anymore. So, but one of the biggest differences between me and Therese was our understandings of human nature. So, okay, so in Islam, there isn't a consistent theology of human nature. Of course, like unthinkable that you're creating in God's image. There isn't a consistent theology about sin because, you know, Allah, like a thing is a sin because Allah says so. Like he can't change his mind tomorrow and who are you to say otherwise? Doesn't make sense. So, it's a completely different understanding of sin. Whereas in Christianity, I think is sin because it is not good for us. And God cannot look upon sin. It's because he's, oh, he's unable or like he's somehow limited because he's so holy and good, right? So, like it's again, completely different. So, I didn't quite understand how this worked. So, along with being an atheist, I was of course, you know, a communist because this is what I thought. That all humans are inherently good, right? So, we are all inherently good. There is crime and evil. I mean, I wouldn't call it evil. Like, you know, crime and wars on earth. So, like how does this happen if we are all inherently good? I believed that it's because of external factors. Like, there were rapists because of societies like really heavy expectations of sexuality, right? People committed murder because they were in poverty. They grew up bad, whatever, right? It was always, it was never the person's fault. It was always an external factor. And the reason I was communist, which you will, you know, I see that it's coming back. If there is no internal reason, then everything is external, then we can come up with a system that could remove all these external factors and create paradise on earth. And because once you remove all these evil external factors, then all you're left with is good, you know, benevolent human beings. So, like, as a Protestant, and she was a, she still is a five point Calvinist. She, you know, she believed in the total deprivation of human nature because of the original sin. So, it's just that didn't quite make sense to me that, like, because I still saw goodness in people, you know? So, that was one of the things. So, I could, I could never get over that. So, my struggle with Therese reached to a point, okay, even if there is a God, I don't want to believe in this God who lets all these evil things happen, which is called the problem of pain. And a lot of people get stuck in it because of that, like, improper understanding of sin and who God is. So, thankfully God is very patient with me, as you can see. So, I'm about 22 now, right? Almost 22. And so, I went to a really good college in Turkey and university in Turkey. And the education language is English. So, but everybody's Turkish, professors are Turkish. So, once in a while, they bring these professors from abroad, from America, so that we can hear, you know, proper accent. Doesn't change my accent all these years. And like, just, you know, learn it from a native speaker. So, we had a Fulbright scholar from Denver University back then. He was a Buddhist and he did not like Christians at all. So, one of the assignments he gave to us, he, it was from Dostoevsky, from a book called Brothers Karamazov. I don't know if you're familiar with it. But there's a, I mean, it's a really big book. Great book if you can read all of it. But if you can't, find this chapter because it kind of stands on its own. Okay, so there are four brothers. It's, this conversation is taking place between Ivan, who is the oldest brother and who is very hardcore communist. And Alyosha, who is the youngest brother, who is a novice monk. So, Ivan is trying to come with, to percieve Alyosha that this God stuff he believes is ridiculous. So, this is the parable he tells him. So, this is happening in, it's very anti-Catholic. So, excuse the, you know, Dostoevsky was an Orthodox but nobody is perfect and will let him go for that. So, this is taking place during the Spanish Inquisition. So, Jesus comes back to earth. It's not the second coming. He's just kind of checking out how things are going. And people recognize him for who he is. So, he goes and heals a blind man or raises a little girl from the dead. But, I mean, he doesn't talk because he said everything he did, right? So, and he's gathering followers around him. And then at his cardinal, the Grand Inquisitor passing by with his guards. And he realizes how people are kneeling and worshiping him. And he tells his guards to go and arrest Jesus. And nobody, all these people like don't say anything even though they saw his miracles. So, he puts Jesus in a dungeon and at night he goes. And he's really upset that he is there. He says, why did you come back? We've been trying to clean up your mess this whole time. And he said, you know, when Satan tempted you in the desert, you should have accepted his offer. He said, he asked you to turn the rocks, you know, he fasted and then went to the desert. And he said, he asked you to turn these rocks into bread. And you said, no. And, you know, I, because I'm not Scott Han, I can't memorize all the verses, you know. And our Lord responds that man shall not live by bread alone, but every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. And he said, no, what you should have done, you should have started turning rocks into food and starvation in the world. Give these clueless people the security they so desire. And he says, when he took you upon the cliff and he told you, look, you know, it's told that the angels won't let you fall. Why don't you throw yourself? And our Lord said, you shall not tempt the Lord, your God. No, no, no, what you should have done is just show these amazing signs and miracles instead of shrouding yourself in subtlety and mystery and give them freedom to like chase you, right? And he said, when Satan asked you to worship him, you should have worshiped him and claimed the power he offered you and created a universal state and bring order to this created world. Because this is all these people, your people crave. They crave security and order. All you wanted to give them was freedom. So I'm reading this chapter. Oh, hang on. And so Jesus gets out and Cardinal opens the door of the dungeon as if Jesus needs him to open the door, right? And then he says, go away and never come back. So Jesus gets up, kisses Cardinal on the cheek and he leaves. And so Ivan ends up telling this parable and turns around and Alyosha gets up and kisses his brother on the cheek and he leaves. So I mean, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. So it's the middle of the night. It was like this old English translation from Russian, right? And I drank too much coffee. I had a big dictionary. So I'm like, sleepless, but I'm thinking in the middle of the night, for the first time, I saw what sin is, right? Because up until now I'm thinking, like I'm blaming all everybody else. Like everybody's a victim, right? It's always somebody else's fault, especially in my own life. And I felt like when I read the Grand Inquisitor, it just showed me a mirror into my own soul. And I saw how my own sins, the stuff I did affected so many people, right? No man is an island. And the sins of my father completely changed my life. And I hurt so many people myself because of, it's just, there is this rippling effect of sin. And I realized there's poverty in the world because we sin, because some people take more than others, right? We are not willing to share. There are rapists because they're broken on the inside. It's not because, oh, they weren't satisfied sexually. So I understood that it wasn't God who was evil, it was me. And that was the last intellectual stop for me as far as. So of course, like most of the stuff is solved here, but it's a long run, they say, between the head and the heart. So that summer, Therese came back to America for like a sabbatical because, you know, missionaries need breaks from these crazy Turks. And I'm like, oh no, now I don't have money. What happens then? The Lord is like, fine. So he gives me another family, but this time, I am teaching two little kids. I think they were three and six. And now, when I'm teaching this, I'm really running out of time. I do talk to, I got kicked out of the chapel yesterday if you were there. There is, it was not pretty. So I started to teach these two kids and they are also missionaries in Turkey, but this is really the first time I was really immersed in the life of a Christian family, which is something I had never witnessed and it's something I have never seen. And this is one of the biggest witnesses as Christians, the faithfulness of Catholics and the joy and love in our life. Like there is no, nothing else, no argument, no discussion can replace this. This is amazing. It's such a silent and beautiful witness. So I go to this house and the kids aren't afraid of their parents. I'm like, I lied a lot to get out of trouble when I was a little kid. Again, because there isn't an understanding of your, you know, that filial fear. And these kids just love their parents and they, you know, they didn't lie. And the parents like discipline so lovingly, so caringly and the husband served the wife, the wife served the husband. I mean, it's just like beautiful harmony. I'm thinking, are they faking this? I'm like, I'm thinking I leave and it's like, you know, regular crazy Turkish family, right? And I'm like, what is this? So, but I don't want to leave the house. Like, I mean, a few times actually she had to tell me to leave because it's midnight. I'm not kidding because I'm like, I wanna be in this. Like, I want to be part of this, right? So now I am realizing that this, everything I've been reading and learning for years goes into this, turns into this. It's not all this intellectual exercise, but it completely transforms your life, your life, your family, your society. That's why we owe everybody we know to tell them the Christ, like we have to share it so their lives can be transformed, right? So it was such a, like this love and joy in their life was palpable. And I had never seen anything like this and I didn't want to leave that and I wanted it. I wanted it. So like, that was the big road. But now I'm thinking, okay, so I go to, so this is my junior year in college now. I'm about to graduate, get a really good job in the government, finally have money because I've always been poor. Like, I can't do that. You know, I'm, I have an 80s boyfriend so that's gonna be a great conversation if I became a Christian. My friends and I, like everybody I know is 80s then you know, we just smart people and we sit around at the bar, make fun of people who believe in God. I mean, that's again, gonna be a very awkward conversation, you know? So like, I couldn't give up all these earthly stuff, right? So unlike for weeks, I'm like, okay, okay, how am I gonna do this? I'm like, I don't wanna do it. I can't, so I'm like at this crossroads and I couldn't cross that final, like just like standing there kind of paralyzed. Thankfully the Lord is patient again. One day I'm more, one morning I'm going to, I'm going to my class and I'm very awake. Again, I'm still kind of, you know, basically 80s. So I don't believe in dreams and all that stuff. But I'm awake, so because the Lord knows and I had this vision and it was very quick. So in the, so I see this like glorious mountains and there's a meadow in front of it and there's this little girl in white sitting down on the ground in the grass and playing with these little toys in her lap. While she's playing, there are two hands coming down from the sky like this and these hands are so big, like the owner of these hands are so big, you can only see the hands. And they're like trying to give this present to this little girl. And this present you realize it's not like, like an earthly present, right? It's like glowing and you realize that it's bigger than something this girl could ever, ever imagine, right? It's just, it's just this amazing gift. And she doesn't even see that this gift is being handed to her, right? So she's still playing. And finally she looks up and sees the gift and she says, oh, no, thank you. I have these little things to play. I'm like, are you stupid? How could you possibly compare your toys that are, like I can't even see it in my vision like they're so tiny with that gift that you will be opening for eternity. And then I realized, I'm like, oh, that's me. I'm like, yeah, the Lord wasn't being subtle that day. I think he had like, okay, we're done with this, you know? So the following day I go to this wonderful family and she was doing the dishes, the wife was doing the dishes. And I told her, I think it's time, I think this is a good day to become a Christian. And they're evangelical Christians. You should drop the place and we prayed the prayer and we cried and all that stuff. And that was my conversion in this, you know, in this like three, it's like the Lord pursued me for all these years. But, you know, I finally got the message when he slapped me upside the head. So I converted, you know, there was a Bible study and I was so afraid that I was gonna be the only weird Turkish Christian. But no, you know, I started meeting other converts from Islam and Bible study and all that. But as I'm reading this, like there are a few things that didn't quite make sense about what the Protestants believe. So I talk about this in depth and I'm sure you've heard all this stuff. So I'm not going to, but there were four things that really confused me. So Sola Scriptura, right? Bible alone. Like, I don't understand. Like he just left and he said, hang in there, I'll send a book in a few hundred years. You know, I'm like, I mean, where, where did the Bible come from, right? Like, I mean, because like Quran is kind of, is believed that St. Gabriel dictated to Muhammad, which is crazy enough. But I'm thinking this just, I don't understand where this came. So I'm like, I pushed it aside. Sola Fide, faith only didn't make sense. Like as soon as we said the prayer, we didn't have free will anymore, right? So that didn't make sense. I'm like, I'm reading and trying to make sense. It's not working. And lack of a magisterium was a big deal for me because I'm reading the Bible, Jesus leaves, and guess what? St. Paul and St. Peter are already fighting. I'm like, the man just left. Can you may have peace? You know, just a little bit. Just for one year. And I'm like, how could a God who loved us so much so that he became one of us, would just leave us without anything? Like, I mean, he knows us so well. It just didn't make sense as he wouldn't leave us with somebody in charge because he knows us so well, right? So, and I met all these Protestants and they disagree on everything, right? Like, I mean, are we reading the same book? Why are we all disagreeing on these like really important stuff? Like, it's not, you know, minute details. Like, Protestants read the same Bible. They disagree on abortion or salvation issues. Like, these are really important stuff, you know? So that didn't make sense. And the fourth one was like, I was, you know, long time 80s, so I really believed in evolution. And all the Protestants I knew were creationists. And I'm like, are you saying he couldn't have used evolution, right? That like didn't make sense again. That wasn't as big of a deal, but it just didn't quite fit what they were saying. So, but I'm like, I'm just gonna push all this stuff aside. Clearly, you know, I don't know enough. So I started to, you know, read more, you know, started to serve in the church. And one of the ministries I helped with, and me and a few other friends of mine, we ran this camp for Turkish Christian teenagers. So it was the only camp of its kind in the country. And we had it like behind the walls of Ephesus. It was just beautiful, beautiful. And one of the people I met there was a missionary kid who grew up, who is an American, but grew up in Turkey. His parents were missionary. And he went to college here at Notre Dame. And we had the same major, and you know, he's just a wonderful, wonderful, really fun person to be around, had great connection with teenagers. So we worked a lot. And we became good friends over the years. So when he finished Notre Dame, he came back to Istanbul to work there as a journalist. And I was in Ankara and I was getting my masters because remember, now I'm as a Christian, I could never get a government job in Turkey. But I figured, you know, if I go get my PhD, I can work at a private college. And if you keep your head down, don't make too much noise, they kind of let you be. So I'm trying to, you kind of learn to function within the system, right? So, and I have a very agnostic roommate. And we were going to a conference in Istanbul, you know what, I'm gonna go get Anthony. Again, I changed his name here in the Bible because he's a priest now and he serves in Muslim countries. In my book, not the Bible though. So I go to Istanbul and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna meet with Anthony. And he, and I'm gonna bring my roommate who's with whom I've been sharing the faith. And between Anthony and I, we'll get her, right? So I gotta go there, so we're having lunch. And Anthony says, okay, Daddy, I'm gonna tell you something, but don't be mad. I'm like, what could it be, right? Like, what could it be? And he's like, I become Catholic. And I'm like, no, you didn't. How could you? So I'm surrounded by Calvinists, like Southern Baptists, like the thought of Catholics is just like, you know, makes them wanna rip their clothes and put ashes on their heads. And also like in Turkey, like you watch all these old Turkish movies and all the bad guys are Catholic and they're wearing big tabard with a cross and they're like liars, cheaters, they tempt women. And there's one virtuous Turkish hero and eventually the lewd Christian lady falls in love with him and becomes Muslim and they live happily ever after while all the evil Catholic soldiers are dead, right? So I'm like, like it's just kind of, you grow up with it, it's just like becomes your subconscious almost. Like you just don't like Catholics and the Ottoman Empire sided with the Protestant princes during the reformations, you know? So anyway, I'm like, the Catholic Church is the, you know, whore of Babylon. I don't even know who that is, but I know it's the Catholic Church. And the Pope is the Antichrist, you know? Like I have all this stuff, but I know nothing about Catholicism. So here, Anthony, during this lunch, that we were gonna convert my roommate, Anthony and I are like basically like fighting and he's just a bless his heart. He's such a gentle, wonderful patient soul, unlike myself. And of course my roommate is thinking, oh look, the Christians are fighting again. I should have brought popcorn, you know? So needless to say, my friend stays and you know, agnostic to this day. So I go back to my dorm room and you know, because like I figured everything out. So I'm like, I think I'm around 25 now. Clearly, I didn't know everything by 19, but surely by 25, I know everything. So I go to the library. I mean, the internet wasn't, you know, such a big deal, I'm just that old. So I go back to the library and I'm looking through like books on Catholic theology. So there is one book in the whole library, which is a really good library, Turkey Standards. It's written by this guy called Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. It's called like introduction to Catholic theology. It's like this book is published by Ignatius Press, right? I don't think Ignatius Press pays me enough for all this stuff. So I pick it up and like, oh, sit down. I'm going to like refute this guy, I'm the arrogant. So I open it. I don't even understand the introduction of this introduction book, right? And I'm like, and I close it, you know, put it back. I mean, I didn't know he was the Pope. Like I'm just like that clueless. So I go back to my room, there's a package waiting for me and it's from Anthony, he sent me a book and he said, so that you know that I'm not completely insane. So it's like this tiny volume called By What Authority written by a former evangelical who became Catholic and he looks at all the main teachings of the Catholic Church and gets what ties them to the scriptures as if Catholics have anything to do with the Bible. So like, I mean, it's just made so much sense. And guess what? You remember all that stuff? So a scripture, a solitude, a magisterium. Guess what? The Catholic Church has an answer for it, right? So I'm like, oh no, this can't be. I was like, oh no. So this, Ankara is like a city of five million. There are two Catholic churches. One is on Vatican embassy, masses in English and one is on the grounds of a French embassy and they have mass in Turkish. But it's Turkey, so you can't just walk into the Catholic church, you know, it's not open. So I go find a building, but it's like, like there are like cast iron doors and all that stuff, everything is locked. So I start calling them. And this lady answers Turkish. It's like, no, the priests can't talk to you. The priests can't talk to you. So I call, call and every day I'm completely frantic. Like, no, what am I gonna do, you know? I'm not gonna tell Anthony yet that I'm gonna become Catholic. I just wanna make sure, you know? It's just, you know, eating the humble bye is never easy. So I call and call and call. And finally, priest said, this like, this guy picks up with this really, really bad Turkish. And it's like, why do you keep harassing my people? And I'm like, can you just meet me? I don't know what's gonna happen. I've just read all this Catholic stuff. He's like, fine. Because they're, you know, they're afraid that I'm this government agents trying to entrap them into, you know, cause they would get in a lot of trouble if they evangelize. So it's the Jesuits running this, you know, Curtis was mentioning, it's the Jesuit church. So I go, you know, somebody opens the iron gates and somebody opens the indoors and we just go and this like, I think like 65, 70 year old, old Jesuit priest, he served in Chad for 35 years and they sent him to Turkey three months ago and he's French. So back then I spoke French. So between French, English and Turkish, like it makes like one kind of understandable language. He realizes that I am not a government agent. And then I'm just like crying and falling apart. He said, okay, you start coming to mass and they don't have our CIA. So like they had a, they studied the gospel of Matthew. So I joined that. And then I realized that, you know, after all Anthony was right. So I told him, I told him, of course he rejoiced. He's not gonna say, oh, I told you so, you know, then he's been a wonderful, wonderful friend to me and my family since then. And then right before I got confirmed there in Ankara, I moved to England for my PhD and the priest, the wonderful Jesuit priest asked me to go and be, you know, be confirmed there and become, you know, they kind of adopt that parish as my family. So I moved to England and in the 2000, Easter of 2008, I was confirmed and received the Eucharist for the first time. So when I was on journey home a few years ago and they asked me like, what do you want your byline to be? Like former, he's not former Muslim, former atheists. I'm like, just put them all, I've been wrong many, many times, right? But by the grace of God, I got there. And you know, 30 years for it's, you know, 30th conference year, you know, the Lord brought me here. And I am so joyful. I'm so joyful after all this year for his patience and for everything he has given to us. And I am so very grateful. I implore you to always remember the joy of your salvation. Thank you.