 and there we go all right hello everybody if it's Wednesday it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly now the little thing that says camera is stuck on screen that's fun and we got that gone there we are how's everybody doing I hope you're all doing well I'm on the road I'm sorry for all of the trouble everyone but we're back we're back and I'm here everybody's here yay okay so at any rate yeah if it's Wednesday it's Warhammer joining me as always is my co-host Tyler I'm gonna delete that other two-minute video so nobody who watches in the future will know what I'm talking about Tyler how you doing tonight buddy good howdy everybody see you again since you're looking even skinnier tonight the camera is supposed to add weight thanks going in the wrong direction appreciate that gotta keep my my tongue against the top of my mouth which is real hard you know when you're trying to talk uh but yeah let's start with the news yes so the news we've got two items one the 40k rumor image it's a 40k rumor engine cool rocket ship thing neat it's only the 100th of the year uh yeah that math may not check out but no I think that's right it is the hundredth of the year you got it yes correct they're all 40k rumor engines buddy because at this point you know like very soon we are going to legitimately probably start getting into like uh you know 10th edition launch because that's next year rumor engines right so like we're only what six seven months out from that so we will start getting into those and it'll just be like 40k a thon in all the rumor engines so right is what it is it's fine let's let's hurry up and get through it absolutely we have one more item we had a another medawatch article we did with associated video yes yeah so you did watch this I can't recall any particular insights that I gleaned from it I've been a little surprised by how frequently they're doing these it's not a bad thing just a little surprised uh anything in particular stand out to you with this article and I mean disciples certainly is is up there outside of the zone it wasn't quite outside last time it's up just a little uh you know seraphon down just a little right uh coming back into to technically you know normalized but I'm not sure I I think that's they're far from okay let's be honest uh you know we'll talk about that tonight I mean the same people who are at the bottom of the same people are at the bottom and and you know multiples of them we're going to talk about tonight like uh four out of the five of these down there we're going to talk about to some degree tonight right and in fact uh you know one of the the very tippy top the most broken faction we're going to talk about tonight as well so so I guess that's good um but I think this is a good grounding for our show tonight because when you think because tonight we're going to talk about the road map the future what we want to see out of the books we think are coming right and uh I think it's important to sort of ground it like okay right now beast is way outside of the the pocket right like it's so bad uh slanesh is so bad in the exact opposite direction right like it is the trash of trash tier now part of the problem with he nights if you notice there's the plus minus percentage right you notice how that varies well that varies the size of that variance is based on the amount of results they have for that particular faction right and so he nights has this plus minus seven percent because no one's playing it because it's trash to play like it's just unfun and it's like look it's at the bottom and it's still going down that really says a lot right there yeah seen some decent results with bliss bar bar for spam but beyond that yeah a whole lot going on at point drop and the i was talking with my friend jordan last night at our hobby nights and he plays zinch so he's relatively new to the game them along get up to speed on the fundamentals he's been struggling with zinch and he was telling me that you know he looked into the play the participate participation rate with zinch and get the word out and he said that i think it was two point two percent let me check that so zinch is yeah two point two percent that's fairly low right compared to a lot of the ones hanging around the top yeah i guess i mean it's about a percent under the like quote unquote average i suppose if you want to think of it like that uh you know like that is say if everybody was playing every army completely equally right then it would be everybody to beat about like three and a half percent or three point four percent or something you know now my general feeling is uh it's that's not terrible i mean two percent there's there's certainly been lower percentages in the it throughout the the history of this stuff it's yeah sure it's on the lower side for such a strong army but clearly there's enough results in here it's still only a plus or minus four percent so you know there's there's enough matches being had that's a lot different than some of these plus or minus sevens you know big wall like slinnish is literally down being played at the same amount as big wall sure right yeah that should say everything you need to know right there yeah i just with some of these i mean it's a longer discussion but i wonder you know we always talk about how and really good players focus on a faction and if you get a uh a decent number of really good players when the participation rate is already lower than the average maybe you will get more skewed results and then the data might be a little misleading sure certainly zinch seems solid to me on the whole sure it seems like a solid book very very capable to be competitive but yeah you know i think people like joe crier kala walters matt beasley on the on the west coast there are a number of people who are really good at this game who plays zinch and i wonder to what degree they're having a an outsize impact on the results anyway yeah i mean the but this i think is a good framing so bone reverse gets slinnish very low right yeah beasts very high seraphon very high top end of like quote unquote acceptable but that could be a fluke there they're around the top end of acceptability they're pushing it we know that right corn dead in the middle flesh eater pretty dead in the middle like if you're if you're anywhere in like this 48 to 52 range i'm just going to consider you basically in the middle because that's that can easily be noise moving you around those couple percentage points pretty simple right yeah um so like i i think that will be a good uh i i think that uh i think that'll be a good grounding as we start going through the factions talk about sort of predictions and theming changes and what we hope for the books yeah definitely i think that's all we got man right and roll okay very good uh well then let's uh let's get amongst it so let's um let's talk about some pick of the week what would you like to share with everybody tyler first apple castro needs to bugger off with with comments like that i love you but let's let's not have that here tonight we're looking to have a good time tonight okay so somebody's talking about skinks again of course he is i am sharing three things to get back on form we've got george southerland howard we did a show about the need for more focus and structure for casual play right for newcomers and we went through george's casuals handbook he is now updated based on some of the feedback from that show yeah and others we'll have a link to that in the description i think it's quite good events you're a fan of it i very much was and and the reality is you know i don't know that we've ever had a show that i had more people respond and say um hey where can i get a copy of something like this this is what i need for my group if you know sometimes we'll advance these theories and not necessarily everybody agrees with us and that's fine of course you know sometimes we're out on a ledge sometimes we get proven right sometimes we get proven wrong hey all good but the fact that so many people like universally cried out for like yes there is too much complexity right now can we please have a a simplified battle pack tells me everything you need to know about the current situation we're in right yeah absolutely i was realizing george i may have got your middle name wrong so if i did i apologize sutherland or sunderland i think it's one of those two anyway latest miscast episode um darin alex the oan jackson is out i actually haven't listened to it yet but prior five have been amazing this one is on gaming psychology and a os i've heard good things so i'm going to listen to that later in the week i highly recommend that podcast and then finally hey on tabletop folks may be familiar with them with their 40k in 40 minutes they've started doing other games at a really cool i think mordor versus osgiliath that's you know the siege of osgiliath before the battle of gondor this is really cool man i've never seen any bat reps on the middle earth strategy game have you played that or do you have much yeah we yeah absolutely yeah we used to play it a bunch like when it came out we got into it pretty big because it was kind of in a lull for fantasy battles and we were kind of done with 40k for a little while that particular edition of 40k wasn't super interesting to us and so yeah we got into lord of the rings pretty pretty hard we played it for a while i thought it was it was good um yeah i didn't i don't know it didn't it didn't click with me like i know it does for some people but it is a very cool game like i'm that's not there's absolutely no shade i think it's an incredibly well designed game it just didn't click with me personally right which sometimes that happens no no shade on the game they dig the alternate activations which i know number of game systems have that yeah oh absolutely no it's very interesting how the just sort of how the figs interact with each other is is pretty cool um in general so yeah nice that's what i got cool very good uh my pick of the week is actually going to be for a thing not a video and that thing it's for bruhammer gt coming up in columbus ohio tickets go on sale this saturday uh the third of december uh so i hope to see all of you there i will be there i have it marked my calendar with a reminder in my phone to get them tickets right away i'm very excited for bruhammer again it was an absolutely fantastic time last year they run a wonderful tournament it is in literally a brewery but they also have like coffee and everything else there and it's just a really nice location you're actually back in the brewery playing um so it's pretty cool it's a nice play space yeah it was it was a lot of fun uh so i hope to see people there next year and and get get on it if you're interested if you're you can be anywhere near the columbus area in uh in january when the tournament happens so there you go how many players did they have last year what did we have last year 60 something i think 64 okay so my god it goes about right yeah love events around that size yeah that's that's not the sweet spot perfect right like it's perfect don't get me wrong like i love a really you know i love a big event every so often too but like for but like a 64 person tournament to me or so that that kind of size that like 50 to 70 people i'm just like man this is the sweet spot right here because you feel like you can kind of talk to everybody who's there hang out it doesn't feel too super crowded yeah so it was great absolutely so yeah all right uh well let's talk about some hobby time tyler what are you working on buddy yeah well i'm finally getting back into the swing of things on the organizing front so i told you this week my co-conspirator travis has got us signed up for this great plane masters team tournament that we're going to be doing in march medicaid and some limits where we hosted vault wars so i've got to figure out how to organize a good team tournament vince uh so like like doubles or teams teams yeah i think teams okay so so yeah four players team captain that kind of situation yeah exactly yeah i've never really looked into obviously there's different formats yeah there's like holy havoc is more of a doubles event right yeah correct those are both doubles events yeah cool so i know you know six nations just happened it was worlds there's a lot that are out there i think anyway we'll go through the list but just starting to research that space and we're probably gonna do a show at some point on that topic we will see weekend yeah i'm i'm i'm interested to let the europeans come on and tell us about their weird format that's clearly derivative of like the time when all those nations just fought against each other this is like their new habit only it's such a it's such a like european derivative thing of this weird you know the way that you match up and this is this and then they get choice and then you flip and it's brand that that that that america the us that is to say specifically being such a more individualistic nation no like even teams is a hard sell for us we're like no this is about about being one we're one we all stand alone as individuals there's no there's no collectivism in our in our society ready to look for that you know so um but no it's interesting i'd love to we're gonna definitely do a show on that and talk about that teams format so uh well good luck is my answer to you uh indeed yeah looks like we're gonna have well not yet sure yet it's on the exact format but we'll have 24 tables so that's our that's our limit but yeah it should be fun nice uh my hobby time this week was spent working on that oh groid still yes that single one um i didn't have a huge amount of hobby time but because we spent all weekend playing a dnd marathon basically from like thanks there was obviously since last week's show i had to travel home for thanksgiving then i played a marathon for dnd and for between like thursday night and sunday and then monday i actually had to you know see my wife since she had been annoyed for days with people in the house and then i had one day to work on it and then i flew here so you know it's been a it's been a week um but i am still working on that guy it's i mean like i'm it's both i could have had him done in 10 minutes if i wanted but it's a golden demon project so i'm really trying to take him to just like absolute perfection levels um my goal is to have basically one of them but to have him done over the course the next week uh like week 10 days uh so that i have a like a template of the the unit i want to do because there'll be a unit entry till until then work off of show other people get feedback on and then take that and replicate it over the other two so sure nice um but i'm gonna be like i need to do some other just fun hobby project in here too because that kind of slow grinding perfectionist painting makes me want to just bang my head against the desk so uh i'm gonna need some fun projects to mix it up uh but at any rate uh that's that's been my hobby time what little there was of it um so tyler buddy are you ready to do some wish listing are you ready to strap on the tinfoil hat and predict the future are you ready to rock ready to go man this isn't my strong suit but i'll do my best now you love these shows you and your game design shenanigans that uh you i think tom is is usually on board for this usually sometimes i struggle a little bit that's all right i'm instead tyler i can't wait to see you apply your your cool rational measured thinking to this you know you're gonna ground us back in reality here right as we're as we're all trying to picture what exactly is the thing that we we should be doing here so this is predictions for future battle tomes wish list thing and just general what needs to happen what should be happening uh all of those sorts of things with these upcoming tomes based on the roadmap that we've seen so we have this roadmap battle tome roadmap 2022 2023 it carries through to early summer okay and no all my tinfoil hats have straps on them by the way that side of the soil like i can really get it on there tight you gotta you gotta be ready to go so winter we already know right because obviously we have the other like the full release of s2d of the slaves to darkness right uh the and then the beasts and gets those have all been revealed okay uh absolutely not martin definitely not uh and then but we have then we have these tomes in spring that's where we're going to spend a lot of our time today so one order tome two chaos two death we assume corn and slanesh are the chaos because they're the last two to get updated we assume that fec or flesh eater quartz and ostear bone reefers or obr are the two death because they're the last two take well technically sold like grave lords hasn't been updated either but it was sort of the last thing to come out right before 3.0 so we we assume it's going to be the two very old death tomes that are clearly uh you know very out of sorts as far as design goes even if not for winrage right yeah yeah we don't know or wait in the queue exactly you cares love it they love a good queue they need so i'm sure that should be fine that's how they structure things they love to queue up can't get enough of it we're going to assume that it's not luminous although it could be it always could be luminous okay but we're going to we're going to assume it's not here and since we don't know what the order is we're going to say it's we're going to do both seraphon and kradron overlords maybe that's both of the order tomes and then you know uh cities as far they're out but i'm not really interested in cities because we're going on the design journey with cities they're already you know showing a bunch of stuff and they've been pretty transparent about what cities is going to be i'm sure we could do some kind of thoughts about it but i'm more interested in these two in these two particular tomes which i you know one of them is definitely one of those two tomes it might be them they're both of them and we won't end up getting cities until later in the year right that was my i mean i would have put some money down that'd be my guess yeah sure and yeah maybe seraphon in the summer with a line update you know we've been getting seeing a lot of seraphon the train feature warband for underworlds and war cry so a number of the rumor engines look like rumor images look like seraphon so anyway but yeah we'll see yep like i could easily see these two books being just seraphon and ko and wrapped up quickly and then they do the big 40k summer release for the launch of 10th edition and then in like august after that we you know cities gets the first big release post 40k yeah could totally see that right i don't see any of these being new uh new battle tomes new armies i'm just gonna say that now i think they're very focused on uh i think they're very focused on getting all the old tomes updated right and that's like they're just pumping these out like five books in that three month period tells me who boy we're getting the books in a hero thing right or or maybe one of them will have a more major refresh who knows but we'll talk about that right um so and what are we going to evaluate these on when we talk about what they are and what we want to see well number one i want everybody to be putting in the comments putting in the chat what they want to see out of these books as we hit each one of them okay so we want to hear your thoughts i want to see what you have to say and number two we're going to talk about general theme and how that should be updated if at all right like does the does the feel the play the vibe of the army need to evolve update be updated change something like that right right what specifically in the rules should change or or the way the army plays and then what needs to be added and maybe what needs to be subtracted okay like are we cutting anything all right all right so those are going to be the ways we go theme updates what rules should change what should be added what should be removed okay and then also will incidentally say like do we think we're going to get a lot of models or you know the traditional hero in a book right or something like that or whatever yeah okay definitely all right great that's our format that's how we're doing this so everybody get ready get your thoughts ready now rev your engines here we go we're reluctantly crouched at the starting line okay we're gonna start with the two we already know which is beast of chaos and kids so we're gonna actually start with beasts all right so where's beasts right now Tyler let's we all will also ground everybody with where they are right as we looked at with the meta watch 61% win rate Tyler how is this army that was trash for so long at now the most bent broken faction in the meta how did this happen yeah this is actually one that i'm the least familiar with but i'm gonna take a gander of what's been going on so dragon ogres have been very efficient for a while now they were doing a lot of lifting in the army the army of course i mean really got to start with the rends update update that they got in white dwarf maybe the most probably the most impactful white dwarf change that we saw that come out this year i'm guessing that white dwarf i can't remember when that came out i'll be honest with you i do not remember the exact moment it happened but but yes i mean obviously it was a huge change we had both points going down so they could flood the board and then everything suddenly shot up one to two points of rend and rallied on a four up within certain areas of the board right yep like all of the most powerful rules were suddenly handed to things something that could spam pretty cheap efficient troops and by the way doger's were certainly a big part of this but they weren't the only part right because you know doger's got changed in the in the battle scroll uh and beast have only continued to rise right these these inch zangor units are quite good and beast chaos right now yeah big old so noa he just went 50 i believe maybe at the boys a couple weekends ago something along those lines with yeah beast of chaos and i think you have 30 zangors you buy six enlightened on disk i'm wanting to say oh yeah you can get a lot of mileage out of those units right now absolutely yeah i mean i think cw you know kriner really uh nail it efficient units strong summoning lots of random easy access to four plus rally like yep yep it's a pretty good combo turns out turns out when you give an army all of the good rules and tons of bodies uh they do good they they do they do good now they are good now okay so we're getting the new book tyler so what's gonna change let's start with the first the first question are there any theming or feel or vibe changes we need here like how should this in your mind what should this army feel like it should feel i'm gonna say fat like i said this is the one that i might be literally the least familiar of any of the factions so that big asterisk but me when i think of beast i definitely think of a lot of bodies and i think it should be generally speaking a horde army it doesn't have to be insane it should be pretty fast it should have a mixture of units that you see on the table i'm gonna be running theme then you know one of my strong biases right is armies that you see at tournaments need to be more reflective of model ranges we've had an ongoing challenge in the game with spam list and you can be spamming in the way that smorgan does where it's a bunch of giant rats and guy runners and his latest ripper dactyls that he went for one with over the weekend we have a lot of like here's the blightlord spam here's the dragon ogre spam right and so yeah ways to incentivize better reflection of the model range of variety of different roles i think would be interesting those are a few initial thoughts yeah i do we have a fundamental challenge with this book i was thinking a lot about this book actually earlier because you and i were kind of texting and it got me thinking about beast quite a bit and that was to say is there is there like a an architectural level challenge with this and here's what i mean you know some people said you know low armor glass cannons that move fast or ambushy and precision ambush glass cannons like that kind of thing i think that's that's a pretty good summation of the vibe right they they should be ambushy they're kind of coming from everywhere they you know they hit pretty hard and and just kind of strike at you and they're all about just like rampant destruction right the the issue is when you look at their units it's like well that's broadly construed broadly construed unit a is a hammer unit b is a hammer unit c is a hammer you know and and like that's just it it's all different varieties of hammers right now some are maybe slightly tougher than others maybe some is slightly an attrition anvil certainly bounty hunters was very kind to something like dragon ogres right which is there supposed to be their attrition hammer right like be able to get in the fight and stuck in sort of a pig style thing but much like handing pigs run to it turns out that when you hand you know monsters like that high rend and high damage uh things go nuts right like when you handle it when you when you hand quote unquote mounted fast units rend to damage too or more right things go off the rails and it becomes a pretty good choice pretty fast right weird yeah you know you look at like uh bulgur you know minotares those are supposed to be your sort of glassiest hammers i would assume because they're running around with a five up save they have the three damage neg two rend base neg three rend you know giant axes you've got best agor which again are like a very fast hammer meant to run around on foot but get a bunch of speeds right all this kind of stuff and so but where there's like you talk about you know mixed roles okay well there's not really shooting in the army i mean okay we have on war raiders we have a cygor that's not really shooting right it's it's not a shooting army no it would not feel correct if you lined up against a beast chaos castle shooting army right okay we agree with that so shooting is like i'm not saying it's non-existent i'm saying it's not part of their strat right we had again another example of spam this year we had cockatrice spam a little bit practically in the the uk forgetting the fellow's name you did it but yeah in general absolutely yeah so my issue is okay so we're not going to have like primary like actual good shooting units that's not their space we're not really going to have like slow-moving anvils probably right like uh that that doesn't make any sense we have a lot of duplicate units that is to say you've got besigor up here on one side you've got ungore here on the other that are like your cheapest cheapest throwaway chaff you've got uh gore just hanging out in the middle being useless right we have the zinch units also buying for hammer role as well you know the enlightened also run like what speed hammer is uh is such a common uh thing in this army like what's that what's that unit it's a speed hammer what's that unit it's a speed hammer what's that unit it's a speed hammer and differentiating these things is going to be really hard right so i don't know if you can realistically do it in an even way like you might need to you you might need to have like a power pair strategy with this if you really want this to be a mixed arms if you really want to see all the different things then you need to push the unit efficiency through power pairs is is my is my thought from from a themey point of view like here's your doom bull and his guys here's your shaggoth and his guys here's your braisham and and your your uh beast lord and and his guys right and there's real buffs there that allow that unit to then punch above its weight every time right and some of that is already present here's the zangor shaman in the zangor unit like we can keep doing this right mad mentioned um i knew him one thing i was thinking about as well which is we've seen a number of balutoms that differentiate by sub factions now i think we've seen some good examples of that and some rough examples of that in my mind knight haunt is one of the leading examples of that was rough where scarlet doom is dominating certainly tournament wise yeah generally speaking right the sub factions really incentivize you to go heavy into a particular war school though uh yeah i think if you do that you've got to be very careful with it i thought sylvanette did a better job along those lines it's not perfect but here's my problem with that okay like that was my first thought too was let's let's go the sub faction route but i don't think that works okay and i'll tell you why because if you go the sub faction route you're right back in spam town if this is the sub faction that makes best agor good then you run all best agor in that one if this is the sub faction that makes bulgur good then you run all bulgur or whatever right like you're gonna end up or primarily as your primary strat you're gonna end up in knight haunt town like right away to me the sub factions in here they kind of had the right idea with the original uh with the original book in that like it should be more about how you want to play okay playstyles yeah yeah playstyle wise so like this sub faction pushes speed across the board for your whole army but doesn't rely as much on ambushing this sub faction is your super ambushing sub faction okay this sub faction is your magic e sub faction there's there's a lot of spell castes in this army they can have a magic sub faction why not right like if ogres can have a magic sub faction these guys can have a magic sub faction okay and if it if it's one where it's like oh this is the one that makes best agor good all that all that we're gonna end up is we're gonna end up in like plague lord light lord spam again blade guys to revenant spam like all the worst things that we don't want right because all of them will end up being battle lines so all of them will end up being eminently spammable and it won't be the whole army like it's not literally 2000 points of best agor obviously right um it's but it would become like what are you running oh 70 blade guys revenants cool great yeah and it'll be like that i mean what are you running 70 best agor or whatever yeah and then and then and so on so i think that uh the answer here is when you advocate for different play styles mixed with a power pair strategy then you've got your your incentive is to take mixed arms but then do different things with them and exactly what your mixed arms is composed of is gonna vary as based on what strategy you're trying to do right like some will be just naturally more viable in certain strategies right right now i'm gonna let what's the difference between spam town and a thematic force that favors a unit or subset of units i have a very simple answer for you there you ready is it bent that's it okay it's that simple like i don't want to ever stop anybody from playing the army they want i want if somebody wants to run all stormcast dragons or all like here's here's two spam factions you ready stormcast dragons and avingori monsters like terror geists and zombie dragons and nightmare mothers okay one of these if you roll up against it a tournament you're like fantastic great auto win one of these if you roll up against you like oh god here we go again what's the difference right simple the difference is one of them is a nightmare to play against it was bent i mean it's still it's wherever it's at now right it's stormcast dragons are still quite good it's better but it's probably still a little bent whereas one of them is like just complete fluffy bunny town right it's it's just how effective is that thing right i know this is outside the scope of our discussion but we literally of course talked about this on chat today love yeah sometime to have a deep dive into this topic right yeah in the past in the past we had these army limitations we have them sort of in aos but they're not as tight as they used to be right in more fantasy so anyway i think there's trade-offs in terms of potentially introducing solutions to reduce spam in the game and to try to increase variety like there's bad ways and hopefully good ways of doing that but anyhow yeah i would love to have that discussion sure okay so that's how b should feel i do think there's fundamentally an architectural problem here because you have so many duplicative units who are fighting for in the same role and so if you don't take a very careful strategy like the aforementioned power pair play style combo strategy i don't know how you're going to get out of it in this book you're just going to have dead units and by the way even with that you're still going to have dead units okay like i think in this faction you will just have dead units all right uh so what needs to be added like what rules should be here should be added you know that kind of thing right so one question real quick in my head is what should be should there be a core play style at beast is organized around and going by the chat a lot of people seem to think that that should be ambushing a core brand identity of beast of chaos is well i don't think ambushing is big enough to be a core play style i think it should always be an option if that's what you're asking me yeah it should yes right like sure you can certain brayherd units or whatever like again like the original book can always ambush fine right that's fine yes they are an ambushing faction it's part of their identity right um to me their identity truly is in the rampaging glass cannon army right like that's that's what it is and so you know they they live and die by the movement phase by how they position their units how they make trades all that kind of stuff yeah um and it's tough because this army much like the next one we're going to discuss has this weird mix where it can like you think of it as a horde army but of course that's not it's only setting right like there are there could be it's like trolls versus a bunch of kids as we'll discuss in a moment right um so it's hard when you have this range from like oh i'm gonna have not that many models in the table like they're all pseudo elite i guess to i'm gonna have all the models on the table you know 200 wounds of single wound models right yeah i mean they're you know chaos war hounds i haven't seen a lot of them floating around other than maybe a screens you know here's two by however many are in the unit two by ten whatever four shaft screening but i've got an answer there when we talk about what we're going to remove okay okay yeah just going through the list i mean there's some non-hammers not necessarily a lot though i definitely grew through a point that there's a lot of hammers that are similar yeah and again i'm not saying the whole you the whole book is that of course there's other things that do other roles right but but it is a very common role in the in the overall book and that's a challenge right so it just presents a problem to to sort of like design a book around something with so many duplicative roles there's a lot of shaft there's a lot of speed hammers right so uh oh now there's an interesting question artorias rex what would you say that is the psychographic profile that boc would or should cater to interesting interesting uh johnny timmy is my answer because you have such a number of units it should encourage some kind of list building challenge where you can go in different directions with it and express different affects or aspects of the army but at the same time it should also feel very much like you should get to have those big experiences especially through your big monsters like the gorgon and the cygor and stuff like that and your ambushes coming in and landing and you know catching them and striking fear into the enemy and stuff like that because you're this sort of like terrifying shadow force so that would be my answer make the rules act like that and that's my first that that leads me right to my my rules thing i will add uh what are speed hammers just high movement hammers yes correct high movement hammers high movement highly effective hammers effectively hammers they get to pick their fights very easily right um the so here is my uh here's my rules add you ready tyler let's go ahead and make gorgons and cygours not suck for like the first time in the history of the game how about we just let's make them 300 points we're just gonna start there okay i'm gonna start by saying they should be 300 points all right i'm looking at the uh as before you said i was looking at their war scrolls this is a reminder yeah they are truly terrible one's 55 is what the gorgon is at right now for a monster with 12 wins 14 wins yep he's super bad um the uh my answer is let's just start we're gonna reverse engineer this okay we're gonna set him at 300 points and then we're gonna build a monster that's worth 300 points you understand what i'm saying we're gonna make him and by the way he can be low defense like that'd be okay we can keep him at a five up save i'm fine with that right have him be easy to kill if they focus on him but if they don't have him be just a just an unmitigated disaster if he gets into stuff you know give him eight attacks with his big giant claws on like rend three damage four sure go nuts you know then give him some follow-up stomp attacks on like rend two you know damage d three plus one like four more of those and then he can also eat a dude right and he self heals if he if he if he slays models like make him a nightmare if he gets into combat right to where the point is it's it's like yeah he's real hard to kill or or no sorry he's not real hard to kill he's real hard to deal with if you don't shut that guy down fast right he's just gonna eat a whole army like yeah fantastic have the cygor throw a bunch of rocks don't you get one one ranged attack always sucks who i don't care that he only has one boulder in his hands just let him throw like four rocks it's fine see what is he right now desecrated boulder a range of 18 oh beautiful fours to hit exciting two is the woman minus two d six damage oh so much to love there it's so bad it's so very bad um yeah i like you could design a shooting cannon guy because it's good you know how i know you can do that they're called iron blasters right and if that's what an iron blaster gets for like 170 points which by the way is undercosted as we've said right and and should go up i'm advocating for that strongly okay um then what is the 300 point shooting monster look like well better than that to some degree right have him throw multiple rocks have it be you know d3 plus three damage or something like that right have him throw three or four rocks a d3 plus three damage on threes and twos or something like that i don't know whatever right so he all out attacks on the twos and twos like great i'm fine with that like he throws a lot of rocks yeah okay cool it's not like it's not breaking my suspension of disbelief here looks like he's supposed to be anti-magic but yes the soul leader ability isn't doing a whole lot for you right now so yeah bump that up and actually make that a meaningful form of anti-magic that should be sweet there could be another way to go with him right have that too make it a big old range and a real problem like you know give him a 30 inch range for his magical suppression for the enemy or something like that or something crazy 24 30 inch range right so he's encouraged and by the way can we give him a real range on his range attack too like maybe maybe make that a little longer right so you know just stuff like that like there's there's there's you could write 10 different versions of that war scroll that could be worth it at 283 inner points you know even with low defense yeah i like that idea i mean definitely so i've played the ogroid theridans a couple of times right now so far and you can die easily but that's okay because they can't hit hard and they're busted reasonably and so i think they're in a pretty good spot i don't think they're gonna be that popular compared to some of the other options but anyway that's a good example right hundred percent a glass cannon and yeah these guys i love the idea of a proper glass cannon monster so i mean some spiky players may not take him because reasons shooting etc but fine still what about the jabber slice uh kill it kill it it's a very old fine cast model and it's ugly fine cast that's about to ask yeah either make a new model for it or kill it i i have no particular love for it i'm sure i just made many boc players angry by saying that but like here's my kill list we'll just answer quickly question three right uh which is you know what are we keeping what are we killing or whatever right what do we want to add what do we want to remove uh i want to get rid of ks warhounds uh they just don't need to be in there they're they're fighting for the chaff role that should be uh that should be on wars sorry those are your chaff we don't they don't need dogs too okay controversial ks warhounds are just love their warheads i'm sorry i know they do but look it's extra it's duplicative it doesn't need to be there we got to make choices here people okay and uh so we're gonna get rid of that thing uh if it's plastic i can't believe that that's fine i'll believe you that it's plastic uh but sentigores warhounds and jabberslith all gone we're cutting down to the actual meat of the army here i'm sorry that's what we're doing all this old stuff is gone okay uh i'm sorry everybody uh and that's that's that's what's happening here there's that's my list i'm not actually in charge don't worry this probably won't happen but that would be my list okay what would i hope now what would i want like i'm keep in mind i'm not just getting rid of them because they're old sculpts i'm getting rid of them because uh okay so it's not sorry i was mistaken okay good thank you it is not plastic i knew it was right i knew it was fine cast i was about to lose my freaking mind that thing is so old like if it was i was like if this is plastic it must have been the first mold they ever cracked out um at any rate the uh like obviously we're gonna get a new beast lord and good cool model like the new model um i would love it if they put in new if they made new uh new sort of centipedes because i do think you could have a valid role for those right um like i think those could fill a valid role in the army i think warhounds and the jabberslithe are just just things that don't need to exist bottom line i mean i'd like to see a lot more new models but we all know what's not going to happen so yeah i'd be surprised if i get anything beyond that one model seems like they're going to be part of a box set maybe get something new on the get side as part of a box set but i doubt it would the beast side unfortunately yep yep um yeah the the tusk or we haven't talked about the tusk or chariot i know we can't spend an hour on each of these but yeah the and like i said this is just the one i don't know a whole lot about again very old model it exists to be summoned right now that's it it exists to be summoned because it has a free re-roll on its charge so when you bring it in for like three primordial call points you can set it up nine inches away and it has a free re-roll on a charge without a command point being spent that's why it exists um you want my opinion kill it doesn't need to be there didn't a lot of killing tonight be cruel beast i mean like look the meat of the army is still here right like you've got like to me beast of chaos the stuff i want to see are ungors ungore raiders gores who by the way should have another role their role as we've said many times should be like be really good at ambushing like they should have an expression of rules that says when they ambush they go ham and they get like all sorts of wild bonuses that make them the best ambusher and and like all of the sub factions can ambush to some degree for the basic brayherd so that would actually give them a defined role right they're better than ungor or best to go are at ambushing cool now there's a thing they do right i like those are all emblematic of the faction to me the beast lord the bray shaman the best agor the bulgur the doom bull the gorgon the cygor the dragon ogres the shag off and then their various and sundry other monsters fine all that stuff should say right uh so but like i've always hated that they had a chariot i hate all forced dwelling ambush factions that have chariots you know how you ambush people in chariots you know how that is of course i'm being sneaky i like to ambush people in my monster truck um you know like but you could you could make but the point is all the rest of those things you you could do good stuff with right i'm i'm sure many of the boc players will hate this because they just want new versions of all their models no one ever wants to get rid of their toys but look it'll be a healthier better book if we get rid of some of those toys because your alternative choice is you keep them and they're just bad war schools we just make them so patently obviously worse that no one ever needs to buy them they're like marauders marauder horsemen and new slaves to darkness um where there's bad old models right the seems reasonable to ask for a five up rally instead of a four up rally sure i mean yeah what should change the the the rally needs to go needs to go that four up rally should not be there five up would be fine sure yep uh i definitely don't want to kill boc all together our toys rex i truly love beast of cast i mean i own this army i have this army um it's i think it's super cool i just i don't see a need for every stupid thing under the sun that's existed since the 90s like even in the factions i love i'm pretty ready to kill units let me tell you what because i value a full like i just value a full play experience book where we can have good internal balance and not have bad units over you know keeping everything from my my precious little nostalgia like that's what it is now i'm not trying to make a judgment call on you out there in the audience maybe you're the biggest jabber slice fan in the world and they really mean a lot to you and i'm not trying to talk down your your love if you love the thing that's cool i get it you don't want to see it go and you know fine i i hope we do get a new model i think that would be better like i said i think you you could do stuff with some of these i think centigores are so ripe and potential for a new model and to just be like really cool looking figs and it just makes me sad right i won't get them because they could have a real role i think centigores are a cool idea i think they fit well in the army thematically i think they could do something awesome i can definitely see them doing a monster stuff action they've been doing that quite a bit of late and you know usually that's inherently fine with with most things like Sylvaneth these big trees aren't tearing up the scene and so on and so forth so yeah there's there's quite a few monsters here if they kept you know a lot of these yeah absolutely yep okay because i mean obviously we've got all this zine stuff too we didn't talk about right there's that infusion of that entire wing right so um you know so that's that's my point like centigores you kill the warhounds so that you can do something interesting with centigores in a perfect world right that's that's that's what you do okay all right let's keep going next up gloom spite gets the other tone we know is coming all right tyler once again what does the overall feel the theme where are they right now uh these guys not doing so well right sure trucks do a lot of heavy lifting yes doing not as well as they could okay but so they got they got some distance to move here we know a lot this army is kind of dead in the water right um uh what's our overall theme again i mean obviously historically this is one of the horde armies in the game dabbas and shudas as the backbone of a git's army and i haven't seen stabbas or shudas on the table hardly at all in quite a long while uh i know richie used to play them a lot of in the uk he was leading into them leading in the spells magic that was before the spell dom era you know that we've entered into for a little while now with seraphon lumeneth zinge and so on so yeah i mean start with hordes uh they've got different tricks that they can do i mean they do a fair amount of debuffing i think some of that debuffing is a little wonky like the the netters you know that's kind of a similar to the decimators where you're measuring how many models within three inches okay how many how many model do i have a model within yeah it's super annoying this netter do i have one within this yeah yeah it's awful what am i getting getting away from that yeah but yeah what do you think what do you think about this faction and what its identity should be kind of when i think of it i mean there's a number of things that come to mind nothing in particular stands out i mean the definitely at the hordes aspect stands out mm-hmm like i definitely agree with sleepy dog who says theme squigs strength squigs weaknesses not enough squigs obviously but it does speak to one of the challenges this army you've got four distinct sort of sub factions in this one force right traditional gets squigs troggs spiders right uh to put my cars on the table i don't think we're getting a line refresh or anything with gets okay i think we'll get the traditional you know hero in a book okay yeah and so like from a theme perspective high level right i honestly think the way to go here the roadmap has been set by night hunt okay let me unpack what i mean by that night haunt are bad like in general they're they're bad troops like if you just look at the war scrolls they're not that good okay however on their turn their allegiance abilities allow them to you know kind of ramp up in a big way through doing things like landing charges and stuff right so they have this sort of tempo play where they kind of wash forward and then fall back and wash forward and fall back strong on their turn week off their turn right and i think gets run is sits in a similar space because all of their units are should be kind of bad what i mean by that is like even the trolls who are like who are certainly physically strong are so dumb in the lore as to be you know hardly reliable and don't know what's going on and you know all this kind of stuff right certainly little goblins are you know numerous and weak you know they they are very easy to kill and stuff like that right there they're a sort of dime a dozen right and so thematically though what it says to me is they should feel like that we're sort of on their turn if they're acting then you know if they're kind of on the on the play as it were you you get them punching way above their weight through different elements and i and i'm going to tie this to a thing that i think everybody agrees need to change i've already seen a ton of statements in the comments right and you and then off of that they kind of fall in tempo and that's where your your opponent gets a chance to sort of build back up right um the david cambell that's a very interesting idea david cambell says he thinks gets needs to lean into linear design to work as an army which is something a os3 has gotten away from so linear design being the concept that like once you've locked into sort of one get you know one one little get mob dude one one grot you're going all grots or once you've locked into squig you're going all squigs or something like that right so it becomes a very linear non-mixed force i'm not sure i agree with that i could certainly see that being a direction it's tough because i think ultimately again people sure there are plenty of people who want to play like just trolls or just squigs but i think there are also plenty of people who want to play some mix of all of those things and kind of have a bunch of different stuff on the table like a classic gits army as it were like here's here's my big pack of dudes and here's my three trolls and here's my big swig herd and here's my knights who are bounding over the top and stuff like that right i've generally not dude i mean i can't recall there's got to be some competitive lists that have done well with that i was thinking about this obviously in the context of a tournament because to me that's the asset test like what's you know gareth running with blades of corn is he running a diverse mix of corn or is it bloodthirsters scar brand and fleshhounds or whatever right sure i i don't feel like i've hardly ever seen that over the years i think this book came out like 2018 early 2018 but yeah 100 i mean that obviously that's one of my core biases in terms of the first principle so if the a faction should feature the model range well and but you also should have options for leaning into a particular sub faction of it shouldn't dominate yeah yeah i i agree like it just it feels like again this would be the right place for the play style sub factions that let you do everything's not the i don't want the troll sub faction i don't want the squig sub faction i know that's what we have now to some degree i just don't want to see that i think yet again i mean these are it's a very similar book to boc but there is a slight difference so again i think a sort of power pair play style sub faction strategy is the right way to go here right as far as like from a design perspective but my answer is we're going to fix the bad moon instead of making the bad moon this thing that sort of drifts across the table right we just play a little sort of word game where we say like on the git's turn the moon is like waxing and off the git's turn it's waning okay or something like that but it's always there and when they're on their turn under the waxing moon right they they get a bunch of bonuses that make them punch above their weight and when it's waning they don't have those bonuses so on the enemy's turn there are it's easier for the enemy to gain ground against them but when the git's get the the the sort of turn and they and the moon is at their back as it were quote unquote right when we've got a waxing moon all of a sudden there they become very scary you know the the squigs move farther and hit harder and the grots don't run and you know the trolls uh both regenerate fast and and you know probably hit harder as well or something like that right whatever the spiders poison is more virulent their magic is better like you can do all the kind of conceptual things they do right now under the under the bad moon you just have it be instead of it being am i going to even have it in this game right or do i roll a one in turn two and then it never actually comes out because i'm already dead right uh instead just make it be it's on the battlefield it happens it's a thing that's happening during their turn where uh where like on their turn they have good bonuses they get the advantage they push and then off their turn they get pushed back because the reason i like that and i do quite like those uh those sorts of like tempo type plays is because it makes the game feel more rewarding to both players right because both people feel very active and in their turn um just a thought and yeah i like warpstone said you know rather than turn on or off it'd make more sense to apply the effects in the first second turn of each round sure like if you were going complete five or similitude yes it would make sense but that'd be a very bad play experience right because then if you don't win priority you get locked out of your allegiance abilities which sucks right um and yes bar tech you're right it does it this does mean that the double turn becomes more powerful against you and the double turn is more powerful in your hands you're not wrong this is all the downside of it no mechanic is free right nothing is ever just all good but i think it is a good way to deal with these factions who have largely their concept is there's a bunch of dudes on the board and they're all bad okay well how do i make them fight the guys who are good where one guy in that army can easily be worth 20 of your models right like one fulminator can can wipe out a unit of like 60 shooters right you give him enough time he's not going to go down to him he'll just sit there and chop him right so that's a problem it's hard to ever get over that kind of an elite difference right so on the right now with the bad moon part of the table is specifying a particular keyword type okay this will benefit squigs this will benefit trolls trucks are you saying that it shouldn't have anything like that it should just be army-wide the benefits or the no it would it would benefit the different troops individually in different ways but it would be army-wide on their turn right so it's like they get this buff you know units grots this trolls this squigs this spiders this okay cool right four things by the way you could still have interesting buffs in the waning turn okay where it's doing something i didn't say it has to do nothing it's just doing a lot less that makes sense yeah okay yeah i like that yeah one thought on this kind of a general high-level thought we've touched on this a little bit so far there are some similarities with gets and and boc i'm saying is i don't feel i feel like there's a lot more design space that could be explored around creating an incentive or set of incentives running a diverse army you know running squigs like pick three or four or all four right squigs spiders uggs grots so i don't know of like i'm not sure what would be an example to point to what i have in mind by that you know what i mean by that where you like you're you're yeah actively trying to incentivize diversity push against yeah mono mono builds there's probably all kinds of ways you could do that but that was just kind of a general one of the fun things about the sort of power pair concept is if you match that then with defined roles you softly incentivize the a mixed force without locking people into it right because if people want to make a bunch of power pairs out of like you know loon bosses and and hordes of goblins they can do that they're just not sort of truly maximizing the value curve but they're still getting a perfectly functional force it's just like curving to here and then going flat right as opposed to theoretically like curving all the way up if that makes sense what i'm saying there right and um the uh no dan definitely no keyword bingo that's why i said four things goblins spiders trolls uh and and squigs i'm assuming the spider people are different somehow because they seem to be separated in the lore but when we're buffing goblins we're buffing goblins like the goblin groups all the all the gits people the the loondudes and the spore splatters and the shooters and the stavas and the loon bosses and the everybody those are all people okay that's it and like when you've got your power pair thing it's more based on particular units think about slaves to darkness is done where the lord on karkadrak loves to be next to some chaos knights right that's a classic power pair he goes in he gets always strike first he pulls a unit of chaos knights into fight as well beautiful execution of the power pair right the chaos lord on foot as you mentioned uh not only does he pull his retinue in but his you know he has he has chaos warriors or chosen as his retinue right so he's on foot he has the foot guys right that's what i'm saying it's that kind of a strategy right the loon boss he's gonna he's gonna power pair up with shooters and stavas right and stuff like that that that kind of thing the web spinner is gonna pair up with with the spider writers and so on and so forth loon balls on kelly everybody has their heroes so it's it's not a challenge at this point and so it keeps the options it keeps all the options viable while still not locking people and you can have different heroes power pairing up differently and stuff like that they have a lot of different heroes yeah yeah i think that's i love that and with the slaves to darkness review we just did a couple weeks ago we saw some examples of where that was missing right in particular on the ogroid front yep i think the best we were doing with the merman dog was making the third ends battle line and it's just i don't think that's enough personally i don't know yeah so yeah like there's a there's a line to walk here and you can sometimes end up falling off at one way or the other right uh so yeah i mean that's a that's a problem but hey here we are so yeah see i don't recall it's been so long since i've looked at this battle tone in terms of the sub factions did that battle tone even have sub factions no originally no but obviously they got added in through the through the expansions book slash then white dwarf it's you know it's it's the maws of jork and the and the trolls and spiders and stuff like that so whatever um but yeah i think that's the army um is there anything i'm killing from this force or what are we adding to it like rule wise and or fig wise well i already talked about some of the rules i want to add but yeah go ahead you hit me yeah so we don't have a lot of meaningful shooting in this army as far as i can tell oh you don't want to go overboard with it but that was one thing i was loved i'm sure a lot of people loved about the classic mormon fantasy orcs and gabos you had your rocklabas your spear checkers sure what were they called doom divers catam yeah i love love that element and yeah i would like to see a little bit of that added back in i don't know what that might look like but i think that'd be great yeah if you know not knowing what for sure like if i if i had my pick of a unit obviously we saw the wolf riders which fine i'm not sure that's actually the unit we needed i agree with you actually i think the doom diver is the the unit this army needs like let's reach back to history here and bring back a classic um because and i'm not just saying that because i have weird nostalgia for the doom diver i'm saying it because i think it fills an actually extremely important role in this book being a sort of long-range targeted damage potential right to to get at things you need to get at uh it's one of the challenge of this army you know trolls can throw a lot of rocks and blah blah blah blah and that could that can do some wounds here and there like whatever right you can you've got a bunch of shooters fine okay again it's not it's not the shooting strategy but having that one unit that can be you know relatively cheapy cheapish whatever you want to say and and actually provide you some reach behind the lines to get it stuff maybe it's a buffing hero maybe it's to finish off some wounds for one of your units to to support them in combat you know whatever it happens to be i think is just highly valuable right i i think role-wise it actually makes a ton of sense in this army and unlike boc i don't look at these guys and go wait what is shooting doing as part of this army i'm like no of course there's some shooting in this army yeah they're goblins they're weedy they're tricky they're cunning right yeah they got some shooting right now simultaneously you could also do things like take the flinger on the arachn rock and make it not crap so there is some like viable mixed arms lightly that could be happening here again i'm not i'm not trying to go back to the days of just like massive hordes of goblins around a shooting castle okay but like having shooting as part of a broader strategy yes that sounds great that sounds good it sounds like how goblins should do right yeah okay another thing that i've noticed again notice playing gets in a little bit to the last year plus their magic is suffering right now again i've watched a lot of bad reps with richie back in the day now in the spells debuffing in the spells damage in the spells maybe both in pretty good mileage out of that at the time like 2018 2019 and it just gets shut down right now by you know the the spelldoms in the game so yeah do you think that that's just another example of where they need a little bit of help to get over the top and more matchups but obviously not too hard on the pedal i'm gonna give you two options here tyler okay here's option one we make all of their casters crappy but they don't pay the caster tax in other words like spellcasters tend to be more expensive sort of pound for pound pound for point than other characters because they're a wizard okay but because these wizards are all crappy and have like like we're not giving any of them bonuses we're just keeping them cheap they're just cheap their special ability is they're cheap that's it just just disposable cheap right it's uh the same thing george just said right that's their special ability what's the special ability of your caster he's like 80 points sure right like yeah your magic didn't work what did you expect you paid 80 points right like that's you got it you you got your casters at the five and dime okay and so that's option one all right like yeah sure you they're not meant to be the super magical faction they're not zinge they're not lumina you know they're not scaven okay um they don't have like a cadre of spellcasters who are their leaders right yeah i understand scragrod is a magical dude but he's a lunatic he's not he's not like a super powerful wizard right he's he's decent and you can keep him in there and he can be more expensive but he should have more utility than he should be like a great spellcaster the great powerful spellcaster it could easily see an update i mean he obviously already impacts the bad moon right now but it could easily see an update yeah with that concept you laid out which is really intriguing yeah where he ties in directly to 100 where the bad moon is going to be yeah well yeah not even predicting just just making a ramping up its effects in some way right or minimizing the waning effects or something like that right and sure sure like that's that's you know because i'm just saying it's it's board wide on your turn it's weight it's waxing you gain the benefits off your turn it's it's waning you gain less benefits or no benefits or something and maybe he can like stop it from waning or something right and that's option one here's option two you're ready for option two if you want to if you want if you want to play in the spelldom game okay here's option two option two is you give them back magic mushrooms in a big way where they can gobble up them magic mushrooms every time they try to cast and it presents some ridiculous risk risk reward mechanic right where on a roll of x plus they you know get a super powerful cast out of it or it can't be unbound or you know something something something right and and maybe it's once a game they eat the mushrooms maybe it's every time they eat the mushrooms the the chance that it goes wrong increases you know again you could go 10 different directions with it right i'm not gonna i i don't know what the actual rules is but you get you get what i'm sort of creating here thematically right they eat the mushrooms and then if it goes in their favor they get an ultra powerful spell that's very hard to counter if it goes against them they explode and die now i like it and that's it obviously i'm very into cabalus right now which is essentially along those lines or there's some meaningful uh downside your your head might explode yep with d6 mortal wounds from miscast sure that's cool yeah like that's the other way and and sure like you know they're they're they're they're in scaven territory but the fact is both of these two armies have always been very traditionally close like gets in scaven have had a lot of similarities over over their histories at some points in time they were very thematically similar um so i you know cool option two is funny it pushes the army much more timmy it makes spike hate the army i'll say that um but that being said that's okay like this is probably a pretty timmy army anyways uh so yeah it just feels me like they should have a means of getting some spells off in most matchups or at least like one spell sure against lumineath or against seraphon yeah whereas right now it's like oh i've got plus one to cast or maybe plus two to cast and as good as it gets yep so i mean you know get it uh get it to the point where it's like they you could be really funny with it right where it's like you eat a mushroom and roll a die on a three up instead of casting your spell instead of rolling to cast your spell okay your spell is automatically cast on a 12 or an 11 or something like that it just counts as being cast on that number it can still be unbound if somebody can generate a strong enough number but that's a pretty hard unbind right that's a strong cast on a one or two the the wizard suffers d6 plus two or d6 plus one mortal woods or something like that right where the like statistically they just explode unless you roll the lowest number possible yeah right so sure you can go that kind of direction right um no i dig that and so yeah you know i think there's a lot of ways you could go with this i love by the way sickness just said sneaky snufflers could help them choose the right mushroom uh that'd be super thematic so if they've got like sneakily sneaky snufflers around them it it you know they less chance for them to hurt themselves or something yeah sure that'd be great um you know just just keep it so there's there's there's that fun risk reward like goblins should be a comical army to some degree uh they're not a super serious force like they should be kind of funny so so i know they're one of the most powerful units in the game uh as espoused by warmer weekly oh boy here we go here we go how in the hell can we make boingrott bounders even better uh i don't know that you need to i think they might actually be where they're supposed to be um like i think they're probably okay they're probably the okay unit in the army come to damage all right maybe under certain circumstances or something like that yeah throw a random like i'm sure you can do a little massaging but they don't they don't need that much they're they're pretty close they just need the problem is you can't win on them alone right um but they're perfectly fine like as a unit that could be part of a larger strategy right so yeah english squigs i've seen a lot of fours on to hit um english squigs i mean maybe that's an example of keep it fours but under the right conditions you can buff it up even more sure you know what do you think about three to hit i mean this might be getting in the weeds but it would like obviously we look at a lot of these war scrolls compared to with uh 2018 battle tome right and then compared to 22 battle tomes yeah there's at least some challenges oh then you'd have to go through and i'm assuming we're going through and fixing the numbers here and there but that being said yeah no this book is going to have a lot of force to hit okay base it is you know why they're crappy goblins in fact it's probably gonna have a lot of fives to hit fives right all right and yeah that's what's supposed to happen but again under the light of the bad moon when the bad moon is is is uh waxing then stuff happens right things happen they get better to hit better to wound they do mortals they do something that would make that not matter right to where now they all the sudden are are frightening and what they can accomplish you know there's lots of ways to play with that that number right where you can you can make it like yeah they hit on fives but they're still a killer force you know um luminous sentinels hit on fives in a lot of times in in their existence because they'd be on you know lofted shots with neg one to hit for because they're targeting a hero and guess what that you're still one of the scariest units in the game so it's not like hitting on fives automatically makes you ruled out to be a terrible unit there are ways around that right so oh i mean yeah with all of these there's so much that we could talk about oh sure yeah we could go like deep in the weeds all this i don't i don't want to do that too much because we do have a lot more to get through okay let's keep going all right let's move into uh let's move into spring our two cast books i'm going to guess that one of them is like again we're assuming that one of them is corn and one of them is uh slinnish because those are the last two cast factions that haven't been touched so that's that's the reason let's start with corn thematically who are these first of all where do they sit now thematically who should they be why don't you you want do you want to take the where do they sit now they sit now in terms of what do you mean by where overall how they play their win rate that kind of stuff we know they're at 51% win rate pretty good slightly better than average theoretically so with them like i said i in terms of tournaments i see a lot of thirsters and scar brand some small support heroes some slaughter priests maybe blood secretor and then flesh hounds maybe like two by ten bloodletters thrown in the point being not a lot of corn mortals you'll see on the table we can see some blood rivers that are there to die right or chaff i mean this army is supposed to be the red tide you know corn's legions the red tide of rage and when i look at corn army i want to hear i want to hear mob rules in my head constantly on repeat whenever i see this army hit the table right absolutely i sure if you want to have one bloodthirster maybe two but not here's my four or five bloodthirsters and oh men men size battle line you know 15 puppies that are tagging along with them that doesn't make any any sense to me right uh oh yeah and then it's a and be a surprisingly technical army and yeah and nuances and how it plays particularly with the bloodtithe table which i love i absolutely love the bloodtithe table overall i've got some thoughts on that as well though but it's it's not exactly a straightforward sort of army that works well for beginners i would say at least if you wanted to do well with it yeah there's a fair amount of nuance to it yeah to me uh oh by the way Hades if you're still here you asked a question a while ago for brush on primers um just quick hobby answer my answer Hades i hope you're still here if you are is uh any normal primer will work just grab yourself some some good old um fro acryl primer and you can just dump it out and put it on with the brush it's it's super easy and it'll work fine it's great primary it'll it'll do you fine okay so let's talk corn corn is psychotic lunatic berserker bloodthirsty maniacs screaming to offer skulls to their god who sits on a on a throne of skulls in a river of blood like close the city and tell the people that something's coming to call okay uh they hate magic they want to smash like they're they're not orcs okay like they're uh like orcs like a fight they're there because they think it's fun these are religious fanatics all right they believe that like orcs do it because it's like it's just a cool time it's a fun it's a thing they enjoy they like a scrap right they're looking for the biggest thing to test themselves against because it's a cool time for them it's like a fun afternoon right these people are uh like corn in general this is religious zealots in the simplest form they worship a god of like rage and battle and murder and blood you know it's not the it shouldn't be the the the careful bouncing thinking man's army i i mean i say that and that sounds but like i think this army is completely wrong thematically right now from the bottom up i think it's completely upside down okay um obviously bias i think it i certainly don't mind armies that have a little bit of that but i think it's fair to say it's got too much of it yeah i mean like iron jaws iron jaws has right iron jaws seems to be a better reflection of the ideal yeah yes the the difference here like and so one of the common challenges that's going to come up is how do you distinguish thematically between corn something like corn and something like iron jaws and i have a very simple answer my simple answer is corn is about the heroes and the elite stuff that has risen above more than it's about the big bricks of troops doing things okay um so like we'll just jump right in let's just jump right into what do we change all right blood thirsters i'm moving them to like 480 points and then we're gonna backfill from there okay like we're just we're gonna put them to 480 and then figure out what what rules get us to 480 points to make this monster feel like just a killing machine right it is a greater demon it should be one of the most frightening melee things in the game it should be you know ironically on the level of like a uh mega boss on mawk rusher right but it's a but at such a points level that it's kind of a bad idea to take a bunch of them right yeah absolutely well my initial reaction is a lot of that because i'm so accustomed to them being whatever they are right like 200 some points but yeah a great unclean one 495 boss on mawk rusher 480 so now you're right i i like that that makes a lot of sense to me yeah they just need to be like way like way up there super scary okay the blood thirsters those to say but it should be about the heroes like uh allow for either make a bunch of the leaders or start a bunch of heroes non-leaders so you can just take a bunch of them okay interesting yeah and then sort of buff them like corn has a bunch of the worst hero the second worst unit type in the game okay the second worst unit type in the game is melee foot assassin right and that is like all corn heroes are melee foot assassins the second worst unit type in the game being a melee foot assassin means you are generally useless in the game of age of sigmar generally okay like heroes on foot are generally there to be utility right that's why we take heroes on foot we don't take them to go do damage so if we're gonna make this yeah i mean there are exceptions the exceptions for the role right yeah we've been slowly moving in the right direction like we're getting more examples we figured out a couple two and three hundred point ones that actually work sigvald maybe the light of el-tharien lord bastion although he does have some good utility to him right but but sure right right um like the but let's let's go ahead and prove that one let's make them not leaders so we can take more of them and two let's make these guys corn heroes like let's make them the champions of chaos that they are the champions of murder and rage that they should be like these dudes should not be five attacks on threes and threes neg one two damage get out of here with that that profile get out of here okay that's a garbage profile that's a garbage profile for garbage you know stormcast heroes okay like these guys should be everybody's like rend two or three they're hitting they're they're like you know twos and threes or threes and twos making six seven eight attacks in fact let's just give them all eight attacks thematically how about that just go nuts and then you know and price them accordingly hundred and thirty hundred forty points and they're not a bunch of them are not leaders right just wild stuff where they have these little berserker lunatics who can scream around the board right um roll what and by the way this army should be very independent operators like i when i say it's the opposite of how it's currently designed i can't i can't stress that hard enough right now they rely on all of these cross synergies and buffs there should be basically zero buffs in this army okay uh yes there are there by the way there is there is uh what i'm describing with the leaders yes fire slayers do have this okay and so like it's not it's not like we're breaking new ground here i'm just saying give them the same thing fire slayers have and uh so this unit this army should be all independent operators they don't they because each unit is trying to prove itself period it's not a buff army it's not a synergistic army that the corn hero does not give one flying crap about the unit he is fighting with not one he does not inspire his men he does not care about his men if they die so what so what they came up with a skirmish game i think sam pierce and designed it i can't remember the you probably know what i'm thinking of right it was like this arena game anyway just makes me think of that and more chosen and that orientation or chosen yeah absolutely you're kind of talking about a sort of or chosen orientation i think actually james hewitt designed it but yeah okay james cool so at any rate um the like if why in the world would a corn hero care that his unit that a unit following him around died good they were weak their their blood for the blood god and skulls for the throne of corn they they they showed they were unworthy okay like i'm not sure this army should be allowed to use inspiring presents that's probably too harsh there's probably rules where you get like ways you could screw up but that's the kind of thing i'm talking about right like sure they can still use all the command abilities i don't want to be too ridiculous with it but but there's no synergistic buffs okay it's just they're all capable heroes they're all capable units except for the lowest level mortal guys like blood reavers are just dudes they're just cheap dudes who are like trying to get their way up to the next level right they're just the inductees right so i've got two thoughts on this so far you mentioned corn's phrase for the blood god skull for the skull throne we have blood for the blood god in the blood tithe table maybe arguably we have skulls for the skull throne as part of that as well but i feel like could potentially have another mechanic reflects better the second part of that phrase and it makes me think of these those that you're talking about you know working to show you know gain favor from corn collect as many skulls as possible of course we've just got the eye of the gods table right but i was thinking as you're talking what about like a skull count that heroes can keep as the game and then they get hero specific buffs love it that go beyond blood tithe right i'm in it to win it baby like let particular heroes level up with very simple rpg sort of mechanics like blood knights and other things that we've seen yes hundred percent that's the skulls for the skull throne i'm in it i'll piles of skulls like all right here's my level one skull pile here's my level two skull pile yeah i can put next year heroes in the game yeah absolutely that was the that was the first thought so second thought is anyway talked about like i feel like a lot of their lore emphasizes this idea of the red tide sure i had blood washing over you yeah and so how do you incentivize that in the army whereas you're kind of sizing heroes but not necessarily units that are operating next to heroes or like how do you incentivize yeah like units operating in mass in this army sure certainly more than what we have right now because you just make the units good right like you can't actually make an army out of out of out of heroes even with the even with them punching above their weight and even with them you know some of them being uncapped non-leaders you still actually need units because fundamentally the game needs units right and so you just make the units good on their own right like blood warriors aren't just bad chaos warriors where they're really bad chaos warriors now right uh you know make them a make them a very prickly anvil okay uh or something like that you make blood crushers and skull crush like maybe maybe skull crushers are the sort of mobile anvil and blood crushers are the are the mobile damage dealers and you know blood letters are explosively powerful because they just do a ton of damage through mortals with their choppy choppy swords right or whatever right and i guess yeah well only one thought was getting out so what if i think if there's an army that does something like this but let's say what if there were benefits to having a certain number of units in an area of the board or multi-charging you know if you and i'm also thinking about right yeah knight haunt would be the example of this right so knight haunt has some incentive for msu in that army sure where yeah with a wave of terror want to have a lot of roles to stack those mines to save get that always strike last could there be something like that for corn yeah where it mimics that idea maybe incentivizes msu a little bit run lots of units it's tied of units right that was one thought yeah i don't know what that would look like exactly but yeah maybe i i don't know i i need to think about it but sure absolutely you you could have that sort of thing where it's like more i mean that i'm still not sure that doesn't encourage you to just use a bunch of the non-heroes but or the non or the non-leader heroes sorry um you know sickness said they do need protection from shooting the armies you're describing will struggle against shooting forces okay cool good they shouldn't have protection against shooting that should be exactly how you killed them because when i when i when a tide of uh bloodthirsty lunatics crest the hill against you yeah you shoot them you don't go fight them in melee right um like that should absolutely be their weakness by the way these guys should be way more anti-magic than they are now like magic should not be the weakness um every unit in this army should have a spell ignore period and the people with the brass collar should be a nightmare to wizards uh which so like your your flesh hounds and the bloodthirsters and people like that who have the actual like the true hatred of corn of wizards right where they're just they're just crushing magic they should be able to answer spell doms with their anti-magic and if you're not a spell dom like a chance to answer them and if you're not a spell dom and you try to cast against them boy are you in a bit for a bad day that is not going to work for you right and like yeah exactly jordan just summed it up good versus melee good versus magic bad versus shooting yeah fine like that's you know that that's what i'm talking about that's that's playing warhammer baby right tell me if you've got a you got like you got like eight or yeah let's just always eight let's say you got like eight heroes on the board you know not all of them are leaders they're relatively undercosted but they're but they're scary as heck in melee right you've got these units that can all either you can use everyone independently because you're not worrying about any buff wars or anything like that and the funny part is if you do that tyler it actually becomes so so here's why i really like this style of strategy because it one it feels much more thematically appropriate the versimilitude is much stronger okay i'm sorry dear i didn't mean to skip you i just saw you there dear um and two it uh it actually becomes a much more thinking man's army to play all right because it's not actually the sort of smart big brain challenge to manipulate all of your buff circles all right what that actually is is a pain in the butt that makes it very annoying but when you have a bunch of independent operators that you can all use in like as as completely individualized pieces on the board and you have bloodtide as it currently exists because i do think bloodtide that exists is pretty close to correct right yeah yeah like the maybe some tweaks on the table but in general yeah absolutely yeah i mean we're nothing's perfect but it's like it's it's in the right space right i'm not making any huge changes what you actually generate out of that combination is an army that on its face will play as like the loot like for for for timmy who shows up and wants to like take his dudes in red armor and run across the table he can do that without worrying about managing bubbles and he'll have a fun time and like if if his if his friend who wants to get in the melee punch up with him has a melee punch up they're gonna have a good old time like these guys against ogres they're gonna have the most funnest game ever and they're both gonna go home like man we killed so much stuff it was super cool right and everything she's gonna be like by the bottom around three there's like two models left on the table right as they just just missed and corn is pleased right whereas for the like high skill player who comes into these he's you know he knows he can use all this he or she knows they can use all their pieces individually right and then they're able to really outthink their opponent and apply pressure in exactly the right way it plays in both spaces much better okay so yeah so that's why i that's why i like this design for this army i think it's just i i think corn is the has been challenging for them historically but it's funny because to me it's one of the easiest ones to write you just make it all good stuff with an obvious achilles heel in the shooting and then you let the players have the emergent property of skill be the defining factor with taking the army from just like good to great interesting the yeah night hunt you can't when you guys said the night hunt review some of you talked about how the book shows you ways to run a hero heavy night hunt army and make that work i don't think we've seen a lot of that again on at tournaments doing well but we've seen i've certainly seen night on lists that are running six heroes that have done well yeah but they have a only one of attraction of a lot of night hunt builds that have helped them do that which is spirit host particular often nine spirit host right sure where they'll have their core center their heroes and they generally play as this extended castle and maybe they have like 20 black guys on the left 20 black guys on the right that can envelope and yes so how do you and that's partly why the heroes are so effective in night hunt when you combine the durability and these amazing buffs that they can stack especially the wave of terror how do you think about that in relation to kind of this idea that corn should be weak to shooting but i i do love the notion of getting corn more centered around heroes i never really put the dots together that we had gore chosen yeah a lot of the lore is emphasizing all about heroes proving themselves for corn that's literally their whole story yeah but the army has not been that at all not even remotely uh yeah i just i don't i i mean maybe you start with a three up save on all these heroes yeah i mean look man there's ways you know like yeah there's ways we can minimize it right like yeah so they just so the heroes don't all get sniped out first of all i'm not sure it's like the biggest problem in the world there's not a ton of character sniping going on right now period maybe outside of like the stupid iron blaster build which again should be like you know yeeted into the sun at its current points values that obviously just needs changed but there could be other things you could do okay like you could give them various and sundry rules that disincentivize people from shooting the heroes like it's it's not hard pick one i don't know there's 20 different designs for it but and in their appropriate conditions you you apply them right and and just make it so that's not the easy win button but the army itself has no protection is shooting like the right answer should be you turn the cannons on the groups of dudes right and then you blow them away and and if you do that you basically win the game sure of course right um you know maybe gareth is making oh yeah go ahead no go ahead please are you going to yeah no he made the point in the comments that there are a number of people who are enjoying the the current builds that are out there you know like the the thinking persons you know bloodthirster builds and i mean that's true just watched gotta get a shout out obviously uh jordan playing them the other day and i think it was this week and it's it's really enjoyable watching good player play corn right now and uh and and how it operates sure yeah clearly it's it's not exactly thematic and and the fact that we are not seeing melee heroes much and we're not seeing a lot of these corn mortal units but that just could be an issue of these war scrolls are so out of date right i mean this battle tone came out ages ago ages ago i don't yeah i heard the other other than darin watson um being the hero that he is running this wild 2018 corn list at the championship you know the weekend in new mexico yeah we're just dude did you see that list he had like blood warriors and yeah yeah mongers and yeah but and yeah we can get into details on what you do with those models but they just need to be yeah just need to get good four scrolls and you'll see them on the table i'm sure 100% just independently strong interesting role-based war scrolls the blood warriors are the anvils the blood reavers are like aggressive chaff the blood letters are are aggressive hammers like you know you can split all this up right there there is a pretty obvious roles for most of this stuff yeah and i i don't think it's not doable and i moreover i don't think you have to make those players lose out who who want to have the thinking man's experience like i think you absolutely can do it right okay let's go the next army we got to keep moving i got a lot to say about here this one slanesh okay step one step one throw the entire book in the bin that's we're just starting over from basically scratch okay yeah i mean it's with apologies to whomever's worked on it it's it's by far the worst battle tone i i mean it's it's up there for an old timer but yeah anyway yeah it's it's very important it is the worst i'm gonna i'm just gonna say it this way it is the worst designed battle tone that they have released in two and three dotto okay um there are many contenders this is the king sure it is unfun it is weak it has no advantages it has mostly trap units that are bad and fail to have any role or accomplish anything uh and most of the pieces you look at and go i don't know how these fit together all orbiting around a central stupid mechanic which is don't kill things yeah that's it's so cute unfortunately killing things is indeed how you win the game partially at least right uh you know yeah you can dance you can dance sometimes and and certainly that can be a thing but eventually you probably need to get into killing because things in this game are fast which leads me to my second point when did slanesh become the slow army aren't isn't this supposed to be the speed kills army all right uh like thematically slanesh is obviously the worst performing army in the meta right now according to that that article easy to believe it's also one of the lowest represented armies easy to believe okay and uh so the what is the theme of this army it should be centered around a couple different things one speed kills two depravity but beauty lives forever i've got that in my head yeah i had to look it up that's a smashing pumpkin song from back in the day speed kills but beauty lives forever exactly that don't and that's that is exactly slanesh yes like mess with the enemy troops right through depravity and temptation and stuff like that right and three uh they should be fragile like they're a fragile army they don't like this is a good army for no no animals which is fine anytime you have a zero anvil army though you have to be very careful about how you design it because then it becomes a trading army right sure and first so oh the thing it isn't there that i didn't mention by the way it's not the summoning army can we please jettison the summoning thing from this like the summoning needs to get turned down so much it should be a step below like nergal's current summoning where you've like maybe you summon a unit of the game incidentally okay uh you know so that's why i say you have to start from scratch on this one okay here's my quick notes for starting from scratch ready okay here we go one uh i'm not even gonna start with a depravity mechanic because i don't even know how to fix this trash but well we'll come back to it one again keeper of secrets we are going to set the keeper of secrets at 460 to 500 points somewhere in that range we are then going to design a keeper of secrets that actually lives up to that number it will not be making two attacks with any of its stupid things because that is dumb just because it has two claws does not mean it necessarily has to have two attacks that's not how the world works last time i checked your average claw lord in scaven has one sword in his hand but he makes six attacks he's not a spider so i don't know what we're i don't know why we suddenly feel the need to be like have some sort of weird or similitude here stupidest crap uh like melee units can throw this is the same thing with a cyborg on the rock melee units can swing their sword any any imaginable number of times in combat right but a ranged troop has to throw or use exactly the number of things they have modeled on them on the model stupidest crap right so there we go that's that's number one keeper is so important because she is such a centerpiece to this army like you should very much want to have one keeper of secrets in your force you just should um i think with all of the greater demon arm related armies you should be it shouldn't be the only build it shouldn't be a must have but there should be many viable builds that have one of the greater demons in it yeah somebody mentioned the goa isn't getting a lot of play i can remember who did that sure quite a while back in the comments but i mean that when we did the review maybe it's a little overpriced right now but to me it's just a points issue with the go i mean that's a solid war scroll i've seen it in a lot of us the last year but maybe it's a little too high but it's just a points issue in my mind oh and like a modest point issue but anyway yeah yep number two the locus of slanesh can we please stop with the asl whatever we're doing here don't pile in all of that is nonsense please stop all of that and instead let's just get back to basics let's take it back to what it should be which is just slanesh heroes create a locus of slanesh around them that makes everybody charged 3d6 inches okay like you can declare out to 18 and you roll 3d6 when you charge done done done like that's the locus stop trying to mess with all this other crap just that's the locus okay just be fast be fast hit hard we don't need anything else right for the most part um you know with depravity i don't know what you're i honestly i'm not sure what the mechanic is i can tell you what it's not it's not chipping wounds off of 10 different units and accomplishing nothing in a world of rally on four ups everywhere it is not that okay um like it could it could be anything when your heroes are engaged with them they're causing depravity or when your demons are fighting them it's causing depravity right they they like every round they all take uh you know some on a blah blah blah some number of mortal wounds because they they as they get depraved and start cutting themselves or doing whatever you know i don't know okay like again there's probably a handful of decent mechanics out there anywhere right does the locus do anything to archers no sorry bliss bar bar cheers your whatever we're just gonna knock you down points you can just be archers it's fine you just be archers like i just i don't i do not love the the the shooting contingent of slanesh that much at all i just don't think it fits the army um i'm not saying it should be jettisoned or something it's just like being shooting is fine just make them decent shooters at a reasonable price that's good enough unit like people will take shooters if they're just good shooters at a reasonable price and that that's all shooting needs to be good it's already the best thing you can do in the game so cool and uh the the one mechanic i never want to see in here is i never want to see something where your opponent makes the choice like uh and and slanesh loves this this is a thing they love writing into this book into into books like this where it's like you can you offer your opponent a choice if they choose a this if they choose b that right the problem is all that ever happens with that is they choose whichever one is the most favorable for them at that moment and it's not the thing you want stop putting some part of my army's play into the other person's hands iron jaws don't ask their enemy when they're going to call the war they call the war okay stop putting any of my rules under my opponent's control that's garbage right like i make the choice i just like you can do screw with you mechanics like they tempt them darkly and they give into it and blah blah blah they you know they maybe they maybe i have to roll a check maybe i have to do something whatever okay and but then something happens it's in my hands a lot of that in the book right now is there i seem to recall the keeper has something yeah the keeper has something it's a thing they've played around with but it really bothers me okay they haven't done it a lot don't do more do less well you laid out two options the one where the opponent controls it but the one where you control it yes you're not a fan of the idea of any more into that you control it no where i control it's good that's fine like yeah i'm okay with making checks or something or having to make a roll i just don't want to see more stuff like the keeper has with dark temptations and and stuff like that like i just you know i think that's just nonsense okay um playing with like shutting off command abilities and things like that because of because of their beauty or the depravity or stuff like that would all be fine ways to play where it just happens right um you could go with uh you know you could go with like make the chariots all better and faster so they're really all just about screaming over the board like the chariots could have rules kind of like the um like we could play with rules like the the gore beast thank you yes the gore beast chariot or uh or the stone horn mechanic where they can like you know lawn mower over people and then end up somewhere deeper in the lines like or some different version of that you could make it like the blood knights version where in their turn they can just normal move away from the fight you know there's there's different variations on that concept but have them just lawn mower around the board and not get tied up easily right yeah but he mentioned it yeah army wide retreat and charge and i definitely love the idea of more retreat and charge especially the chariots you think about that notion of army wide retreat and charge yeah i think it's fine i don't think it's actually too powerful at all because in a glass cane and army you rarely have anybody alive to retreat yeah dude and we've had daughters of cane with uh i can't kelnar the newest or one of the newest sub factions right and almost nobody plays kelnar anymore because there's others that are better and it's army wide retreat and charge so yeah i mean i'm getting that right i think it's arm i think it's army wide retreat and charge kelnar yep it's just it's just army wide retreat and charge everybody does it yeah and again it like it doesn't really matter if you hand a glass can and force it's on a five up save retreat and charge like who's still alive after a fight who's retreating away yeah everybody's dead you know which leads me to my next point this should be the army of like rend rend should be all over the place in this army right not not mortal wounds we don't need a lot of that action but we need rend just rend like crazy this is an army built around like ultra sharp swords perfect swordsmen huge gigantic claws they're meant to slice through armor and flesh alike like yeah this is the army of rend go fast hit hard die that's the general plan right and and yeah it becomes a finesse army where you have to like trade correctly and use your units right but you've got the cushion of speed to help balance it out mm-hmm that's it yeah very interesting yeah the we've talked in the past quite a bit about how it did well in 2019 obviously alva strike glass was a big part of that and you're saying that needs to be jettisoned and then also I think we both would agree we didn't have as much shooting as we certainly could have had uh at the in that window in 2019 we did not have either either high shooting or high armor both of which were an extreme counter to everything slinnish had as we learned in round as I learned in round five of Nashcon that year when I read against you know Matt Sweeney's uh um you know 2016 stormcast list that clean my clock right right yeah yeah so I don't know it makes me wonder what else might be needed to so certainly you're talking about speed as a way to help them overcome uh their the glass cannon they should be so blindingly fast like just the fastest army in the game on foot like unnaturally supernaturally fast right because that's it right it makes me yeah think of iron jaws because iron jaws are deceptively uh killable like they're not that durable sure that it's mostly an army of four ups right it's it's four of some pigs three ups on cabbages four of some brutes four of some art boys sure and I'm pushing for like five ups across this army okay like really right five and six ups I'm happy with it let's call it good you know everybody but sigval right who obviously is still rocking a good save like sigval is meant to be what he is yeah he's like the one good scroll he needs very little changes right right you're wanting you think it there should be no summoning this army or just less summoning much much less again like a game where you summoned a unit you're like yeah okay that worked and cool yeah nergal is essentially you get a couple units as far at least the one the list that I played yeah if I get like a unit in round three and then maybe if it goes to round five I get a second small unit or something like that I'm like that is the correct amount of summoning right where it's like you added two three hundred points to the table starting in round three and then in round five of the game somehow managed to go to that point fantastic perfect amount of summoning you know like it should not be a it just shouldn't be a mechanic you build into I'm not usually about shutting off play styles but this shouldn't be a play style you build into especially not for this army it makes no sense maybe for zinch that's the thing because you know zinch is the magic army it makes sense they gate people in they come from the silver tower they summon other than in weird demons but it's this isn't so that's just the summoning army right gotcha cool yeah I dig it yeah so like I don't know do all that like just throw the current book in the trash and start over I is my best advice okay yeah we can only hope all right next up flesh eater quartz uh okay where they sit right now is pretty middle of the pack they're about 50 51% which is surprising but they're a very timmy friendly army they're a very new player friendly army uh they have a very small number of units right but those units can all do some work again an army sort of without anvils right uh mostly hammers here big court of ghouls so on and so forth uh you know your your cumquat your ghoul king on uh terror guys why is he called the cumquat because he is uh you know yeah and then some support heroes like your your arch region and stuff like that right that's that's basically the army it's not I mean this this whole thing comes in a star collecting box for god's sakes basically right um I think fleshier quartz thematically is the most compelling army in the game maybe their backstory is incredible their like lower concept is cool the models are fun they're relatively easy to speed paint um they uh like I said they're they're great for new players to pick up and and have a fun time with they hit pretty hard they they move decently quick um you know so like thematically I don't think anything really needs to change I think everything here is basically just you know rule stuff so I agree with what you're saying on the lower side the theme is incredible I often don't feel that I'd love to hear any fleshier quartz players in the chat who might disagree with this I often don't feel I feel it often to disconnect between that and what I experience on the table sure that is that I feel like they could have a tighter coupling between this incredible lore they've laid out which is that you know these guys uh they're delusional I don't know a lot about the backstory but like they're suffering from this madness that started with the carrion king and so they have these abhorrence you know these sort of vampires who have given into delusion and madness and then they create what are called mordants or mordants how have you say that and yeah so it's this they're kind of like uh Bretonnia for sorry Bretonnia but you know Bretonnia for Age of Sigmar and it's amazing but I just don't often I don't feel like I don't feel that theme as much as I would love to on the table I mean I totally agree tangible like like one tangible example like what would be a lance formation of flesh eater cords yeah like I there that doesn't exist um what I mean there's a number of things wait what would be ways of incentivizing the units that are supposed to represent the different aspects of Bretonnia cryptors are supposed to represent knights how do you incentivize them to actually function more like knights yeah how do you invite like flares right to function more like pegasus knights skirmishers on the battlefield we get rewarded for playing into what's supposed to be their play style yeah things like that no that's a good point and that's why I say I think it's in the rules not in the theme right like theme-wise I think they feel appropriate the the models all feel like they're they're kind of acting like you would expect this army of mad cannibals to act the problem is we don't have the underlying rules that then are framed in the way that creates that versatility to the to the to the narrative overlay right and and I think the way you do that is you you sort of upend some of the rules expectations uh that like if we're not going to get new kits for this okay which by the way this is a great army you could add a couple kits too it's a very small army all right we're getting two okay you look through the rumor engines and you're pretty sure there's two in there all right carrion king and a new var gulf kit I that would be great I would support definitely I'm right here resin it desperately needs it and they've got multiple rumor engines that look like the carrion king yeah so that would be awesome that would be awesome I mean we got king brood let's start let's do it you know let's get these special characters out there um the the way I would incentivize that through the rules is we need to lean more into it right and so like the rule should be speaking to uh to like uh like nightly quests that they're going on okay they should have codes of chivalry yes but they're all horribly twisted right the name of it should be like like if you if I was doing the layout for this I would have like the the real name for the thing like the virtue of unyielding honor or something like that right and then in parenz it would be like uh cannibalistic frenzy you know and like tie them together thematically and then the rule can sort of the rule that they get backs in and could represent both of those concepts yeah okay amazing you know and uh you know have like the so so have like quests they undergo again this would be a great army to add some rpg mechanics to right like for the for the heroes and or the nightly units that are going on these gallant quests uh as they see it right and so when they do these great deeds i.e. they slaughter and consume their enemies you know they level up right that's the kind of stuff that uh that we need right so everything has like the the madness name and then the real as experience name and then that's what it is you've got the rpg mechanics to level the heroes you've got quests that they're trying to go on and things like sort of meta things they're trying to to accomplish honestly this could be a great place i hated it in zinj because it made no sense and was stupid but this could be a like your nightly quests could be a sort of unique enhancement that's almost like the agendas used to do for zinj but instead of it being just like a bunch of things you're trying to complete throughout the game stupidly that are dumb easy because of your destiny dice you make it actually an enhancement that you give a unique enhancement that you give to a unit one of the sub factions bestows extra enhancements you know i'm sorry an extra nightly quest right and those nightly quests then provide you with additional buffs when you complete them and direct you to have these these units they could be selected more and stuff like that it'd be cool bonuses you would earn for like doing the the the nightly thing slash the grotesque abominable thing right 100 i love the idea then yep uh coach was apparently typing the same thing that i was i was saying out there yeah like man that would just be uh that would just be great right like wouldn't that make it feel like the thing oh totally yeah you know yeah that'd be amazing yeah that was that was a big one in my notes as well that i had uh let's see so just leave we had the lady of the lake as a significant element of bertonia back in the day and we've we've got our equivalent of the carrion have you pronounced the king's name for tony and king we've got an equivalent of that in the carrion king do you think there should be something along the lines of the lady of the lake i was a little skeptical about whether i would i don't think you necessarily need to yeah i mean like you could i wouldn't be opposed to it if it was a cool model right um that'd be fine um but i i don't know that you need it i think those thematic elements are more and then by the way like a lot of the way their rules work were kind of janky and based around very simple additional strike mechanics i'm not sure you need to keep much of any of that it's all fine you could keep it right you can keep versions of that stuff but if you do so please rewrite them to be aware of like the phase they're happening in and make them stop you know uh what i want to say like clashing with the you know the existing rules the game this is like all out of attack and all defense and stuff like that you know let them actually use their their rules um apparently your idea by the way for flesh eater lady the lake people are people are digging it so yeah so like marks of chaos chivalrous or abominable each has buffs drawbacks yeah that's cool yeah the lady of the lake win yeah absolutely so i mean that would be a cool i you know hey uh people are ready to throw money at you for this idea so gw we tyler hit a winner here this is this is clearly this is clearly a winner um yeah like she thinking about this more tyler sure their image of her is of this beautiful lady bestowing a weapon right but what she actually is is some horrible like bog hag right it's all like rotten through and whatever and is giving them like a femur bone with a spike on the end right totally something like that no deralleus that is the zephyr blade um so the yeah i mean like honestly you've you've brought me over to your your idea so but now you make a good point about the command i mean that like feeding frenzy right now that's part of the problem that they can just be turned off through roar or whatever it might be in the combat phase and yeah it's been a real problem for players with uh so right now their core battle trait is around you know delusion so your list building you pick one of six delusions i think and you get a buff well unless you take a sub faction and so on and so forth and yada yada like again because they have this old book now a lot of it would be handled just by going to a 3.0 book where you don't have these stupid clashes anymore right um so i think that's still gonna not just keep something like that or maybe make it so sure again because i think that can speak to that that easily rolls into the concept i'm talking about right so uh there you go and then the yeah i mean some of these things are just they need the 3.0 treatment like terry guys soma dragons desperately need the 3.0 monster treatment actually actually make them good yeah the yeah it doesn't really feel to me like they need a broader model range much more i mean i think uh update of bar golf would be cool karen king definitely maybe that's later the like idea but yeah i mean the core is it's another iron jaws right you don't really need that many more war scrolls i don't think right of uh i think as long as they all have different roles you're good and i think they i think they do you just need like some of the rules need some tweaking and playing with stuff to you know b 3.0 but again that's just an engineering problem that's just tweaking around the edges there's no there's no fundamental flaws there right sure the factions that have this limited number of war scrolls are honestly usually in a much better place from an internal balance perspective than the ones that have a ton of war scrolls you know matt rose even mentioned that in one of the articles that usually the the armies with the biggest number of scrolls have the worst internal balance and and the worst kind of time right sir hopefully soon coach with uh yeah with usher on king the night it'd be cool if you had actual courts with the heroes ret news and stuff like the chaos lords do i'm down to that no it fits perfectly to what i'm talking about yeah 100 i think these guys are easy just you wrote the best lore in the world for these guys now just to make the mechanics reflected through any of the 10 ideas we've talked about that's it 100 that's it like it's it's all there you're sitting there with this whole giant pile of legos and you're just like i don't know what to build build anything like you know just do something with all these legos you've got okay asiak bone reapers oh boy okay so this is an under-performing faction they are currently pretty low in the meta they are below the 45 percent win rate threshold they are boredom uh in a can basically because of the way they're designed right now um you can either play the slow attrition grindy build of all of the dumb little skeleton boys your more tech guard or you can take like 18 chopper dads and uh and just go ham and hope that that does the business right uh so this is a good army for candidates to add things to namely the other war machines and units that we've already talked about in the stories and lore so this would be like skeletal archers and the skeletal um uh they right now they have like a trebuchet they need the like ballista basically because they they do have those defending the the whatever he called it when he when he because he still owns that castle in the in the all points right now like he has a foothold in the all points in chaos's stronghold i don't remember what his stronghold is called but um but like thematically they're fine it's good to have this anvil heavy attrition militaristic sort of roman legion type force that wants to win through engineering right yeah so many mentioned chariot i'd actually love to see a chariot with this army yeah 100 chariot we're fine here um the so but to me the this army just has a fundamental problem and it's their stupid rules the fact that they're a proto 3.0 army living in a 3.0 world like they were the beta test for kind of 3.0 mechanics right yeah with their relentless discipline points yeah yeah all they need is just like jettison the stupid relentless discipline okay so we're gonna take all of that we're gonna we're gonna put in a little ball we're gonna throw it in the trash and we're just gonna give them command points and they're gonna use those and they're gonna have a bunch of cool tactician abilities that make them better at doing those things than anyone else when they redeploy maybe they get to redeploy roll two dice and pick the highest or maybe they redeploy a d6 plus one inches or two inches or maybe they get to redeploy multiple units at once or whatever you know like when they unleash maybe they don't suffer the neg one it would get their new archer bony boy shooting unit right because they're very disciplined archers who aren't that thrown off by the fact that people are charging them when they all out defense maybe they also get some other particular bonus not like plus two to save that's too good right um but maybe they're like plus one to save and they gain a you know I don't know I don't know uh you could do there's different things you could imagine you could imagine a plus one to save and they reduce uh the rend by one maybe that's how we implement the rend by one thing right like out of the out of the sub faction I don't know I'd have to think about exactly what they the I don't again I don't want to get caught up in the individual solutions because who cares but the point is that thematically there's a bunch of tactical things happening in the game just let them do those things and be better at them because that's what they are they're the tactical army seems very easy right yeah no I like the son of that yeah I've talked with brennan and for brennan malnick uh kivik shanagan's the format obviously he loves playing obr and talked a little bit with mef not like quite as much I know mef's a big fan as well obviously the one thing that brennan always emphasize is catacross he thinks catacross is a fascinating character because they in his mind did such a good job with the tactician part catacross is this expensive buff utility piece that often doesn't engage in combat unless your opponent forces it I mean you can do some work right but that's not what he's there for but anyway yeah to me when I think of obr I want to hear from brennan and others I just have catacross first and foremost and the role that he plays in that army and just kind of giving yeah giving that footprint in other parts like you said the command abilities would be an obvious one 100% like make them good with the commands and tactics normally but then if it's like for the one that catacross issues it's really really good right because he's this tactical genius who can lure people into traps or something like that right yeah absolutely right yeah we're going to say catacross should be fighty turn one uh none of this you have to lose 12 wounds to be fighty yeah I don't know again I mean to me at least from what I've heard from some folks who play this army a lot I know Murgoch has played this army that is a big part of what makes catacross in particular a unique unique character he is there as the ultimate tactician right he's true like a classic general he's not there to fight he's there to lead yeah he's a battlefield commander so there's another army I don't know incredibly well yeah just in terms of like what else and you know where they are obviously they're known for being very durable sure that's yeah one of their one of their primary things they are anvil's own animals yeah they've had some units that haven't seen a ton of play uh for various reasons and we'd like capitalist death writers I think I have a solid war scroll mostly seems to be a point issue uh so the amorous guard who are just terrible you know yeah uh although I do know somebody who thinks that they're actually underrated which we might get into on a future show the yeah how would you think about the sub factions with this army uh I would think okay so the way I would think about the sub factions in this army is not how they thought about them because they just kind of picked random concepts and built around it like this is the anti-magic one this is the really really hard to kill one or whatever and it's like okay well anytime you pick that the hard to kill one just always wins so whatever that's silly this is the horse lord one whatever right the way I would think about the sub factions from a thematic point of view is um what is the uh what is the particular army's purpose that is here within the greater auxiliaries and legions that catacross commands okay so like is this the engineering force the vanguard force the holding force the the conquering force and so on yeah um like traditionally um you know roman legions had sort of distinct uh roles they were doing amongst a whole amongst the whole legion but you could break that broke down into interesting ways between their like uh sort of conscripted troops different points than in the in the roman empire and so on but like there's a lot of similarities there because they won through both tactics and engineering right and it would be neat to have that then reflect the way that they sort of play in the game and the style they can lean into so for example if you picked like the the sieging force or something like that or the attack force or whatever right maybe the advantage is like um they ignore all bonuses for people in garrisons and cover and also get a big bonus whenever they're attacking anyone on an objective in uh not wholly within their territory right so you've got kind of a little thematic buff that isn't really doing much like I I hate like I'm a fully aware garrison and cover buffs don't actually do anything because people just won't stand on cover but like you could make it be they get a decent bonus to attack anytime they're uh hitting anyone on an objective outside of their territory right so they're meant to go out alternatively you could have like the defense force right that gives you bonuses to your catapults and makes it so you get big bonuses on any objective that is uh within your territory or something something something like that right or partially or wholly within your territory or whatever you could have like the scouting force right where the yeah the horseman gets somewhat better but the entire force as a whole gains a little more mobility right this is classically a pretty slow army this is the one that could make them a little more mobile right and and let them play around kind of evenly on all the objectives right that to me feels like a cooler way to go it leans into the tactics again right where it's like well what do you want to express tactically okay what's the type of force you're trying to lean into and then certain units would sort of become emergent property better in certain forces than the others you wouldn't need to ever write special rules for them they would just naturally harmonize with the the goals and what you're trying to do there better than something else right like more tech are probably better in the defensive e-force and the big slashy choppy forearm dudes are probably better in the go siege force and and so on and so forth right or whatever that's cool idea um yeah and certainly ways of doing that that doesn't lead to spam town right here's my all more tech guard because it's the defensive force and that's all that i'm really incentivized to play yeah i'm sure that's possible that's interesting i like that a lot yeah i mean would reflect very well this core theme that we're discussing with oc arc which yeah gives it a real unique identity i feel um yeah i think what else there is with this army what have we got in the comments let's see they need somebody mentioned you don't watch the beginning battle in gladiator before writing the new tone yeah absolutely absolutely be a martin not for no not a pronounce your last name martin not for oc arc especially but an army with no reinforcement limit and the bigger the unit is the more bonus it gets would be interesting yeah i would not want to see that here but sure that could that could work on some of these armies yeah absolutely like gets we didn't mention if it should be playing around for reinforcement points obviously sure yeah chances um yeah morgast's um you know sweat mentions morgast's the morgast arc rye and stuff like those guys are classically in a very weird place i'd love to see them retooled to have some kind of role uh because they're just they're actually super cool models i mean look at that dude in the art floating behind them it looks amazing like let's do something with that guy uh they yeah they're they're okay they're not in a great place right now as far as i can tell absolutely okay cool anything else on obr i think that feels good yeah no i like the yeah the core conceit there all right our two order armies to round us out and bring us to a close karadrin overlords okay so currently a pretty middle-to-pack army it's been performing pretty well it's got some of the most powerful shooting in the game but it has the like probably third jankiest rules right now in the game sure uh it's obviously challenging to i like how he's shooting uh a morgast dude i didn't realize that i just noticed in the piece of art i grabbed he's like killing uh one of those morgast here's a little like some kind of giant plasma gun there you go good for him okay so here's the problem with karadrin overlords they're an all shooting army in a melee focused game this is a problem okay here we have identified a fundamental architectural issue fortunately this can be changed and here is how we change it okay we set up so that it's not an all shooting army that's it done uh like i don't want to make this more complicated than it needs to be just uh that's not possible it's an all shooting army my friends that's it is what it is uh huh uh huh but but qe d but why though yeah let's move so there we go they're broken forever we can't fix it we can't fix it like okay i'm fine if thunders are your sort of foot shooters sure that's fine make all the balloon boys the make both versions of balloon boys different melee people okay if they want to have some light ranged capability fine but it should be light not anything you can rely on their purpose is in melee so the wardens are the anvils and the and the um the other guys the chainsaw guys rigorous yeah there you go thank you are your uh hammers right and yeah okay they like sure everybody carries a little bit of guns fine right um and great cool but like they all still have some kind of shooting attack they can do it's just like on fours and threes or fours and fours neg one one damage or something like that you know okay whatever you know who cares right it's there to be a little spice because because they are all a technot technological force right and the archonauts are your massive dudes meant to hold a thing fine and your big boats are big gunships like yes the big boats are still fundamentally flawed because they don't hold objectives but now you have two solid melee units right whose main purpose is being in melee you have the arco who are meant to be like deck chairs sitters slash objective holders with light melee light ranged you have your thunders which are your hardcore ground ranged troops right that that need to either be transported by a boat or hustle their butt up there okay um you know and give them like good decent-ish range like 18 inches also ditch the 52,000 different weapon profiles in all the units that's just a high level thing like make thunders one weapon profile and just call it like thunderer weapons and if you want to give them like one special weapon fine but we don't need like the 40k thing happening in in a os where it's like this is my guy with a plasma gun and this is my guy with a rocket launcher and this is my guy with a multi-melta like shut up right nobody cares okay make it just thunderer weapons and then there's one special guy and he has one special gun and it does one special thing fine right sure uh and then your boats are boats they're battleships they're tough floating things that count as basically nothing on objectives right so that's their natural drawback they're high wounds and difficult to remove with a lot of bristling guns but they count as two guys on an objective done like and and by the way take some of the heroes and put them make them also mainly melee dudes too um like you know so you take there's a selection of heroes melee guy utility guy ranged guy done boom boom boom right like whatever you however you want to do that how well do you think this army matches the first militudes of the lore to the degree you know about their lore and your impression of their lore yeah pretty well i mean like i don't i don't think it's bad you the code is is a cool idea it's fine ish the way it's translated i think they could do some work to improve that certainly this army would benefit from having like updated sub factions and like the code and the benefit you get from like your code could probably end up sliding into like some choice and then a unique enhancement to buff it you know like your footnote could unique enhancements could be footnotes that you then add in and do some special thing to particular units who've added their own footnote to the code you know and so on and so forth um yeah like it's it's just like you want them to be able to like then they're playing mixed arms which feels like how they should be playing interesting there's a bunch of people mentioned they want the sky pirate feeling right and that would be just i think a better feeling overall uh a os list lab what's up sam he said i'd like a boat hero steam tank commander style yeah a hundred percent i'd be fine with a boat hero because again like yeah cool he's a boat hero he still counts us too let's just say yeah but yes they should obviously have a named boat because named named ships are cool obviously so yep but and and i think that would help it feel more like an a os army if it was playing almost naturally mixed arms didn't they change the rule in battle scroll effect or if troops are in a boat they cannot count toward an objective i think that's always been the case that always been if you were garrison in the boat you could not count toward objective yes that is always been the case yeah interesting okay um yeah obviously with tom are here this is one of his armies he had a lot more to say about this faction than i do uh i just yeah i've it's been one of those armies that i haven't felt the theme as strongly as i would like how bad certainly better than lanish but that's a very low bar uh or some of these others but yeah i don't know i'm trying to piece together my mind like what else i'd be intriguing with this army uh definitely a little more mixed arms would be nice kind of like what you're laying out here a little more melee uh maybe incentives i don't know that could there be like incentives not always lean into the uh sort of i mean their inherent play style when i played them is we're going to concentrate power right we're going to fly high concentrate power we're going to get out of dodge we're going to do it again we're going to pick you apart and then hopefully we're going to catch back up on objectives you know yep later on yep yeah okay is that i mean yeah that makes sense as a shooting heavy army that that would be the play style is there are there better options that or is that the ideal i don't know i mean you could play with the whole i teleport every round mechanic you know and limit that to some degree to where they can't just pick up and and float around all the time like that and you could limit it that way and just buff some of the other units so they have to like maybe they can aggress one time or they can come in and you know more traditional ambush style there there could be different implementations of it right yeah jordan said a bit more staying power but slightly reduce their mobility right exactly yeah that's the kind of way you push it you could just tilt that needle right because they they definitely can fall over pretty quickly if you're not careful it's like i get why that's their play style right now yeah yeah it should be a little harder to beat a giant steel boat to pieces to ribbons but you know most of time those things get flipped like they're made out of styrofoam right so yeah um you know they they you could you could very easily especially if you had arco have a more melee side to them like yeah they all get pistols but they'll have swords too and they're like decentish and melee right again not incredible but decentish or in certain circumstances you know good right like if you're doing the right thing with them or have the right synergies they could become good and then that would lean more into that style right you give them less mobility you make arco better in melee you make the boats a little tougher you don't let them just bounce all over the whole board every round you turn the two balloon boys into into solid melee troops with like three wounds each you know and a good save right maybe they maybe maybe the balloon boys get like a three up save or something like that right that's there that's just they become pretty tough you know or at least the sky wardens do right and and maybe the hammer unit in the in the endring rigors have you know just do a lot more damage but they're on a four up save or something like that you know like I could see the version where you you can tweak around those mechanics to get them into the right place where it's like this is my more dedicated shooting unit but my incentive is to like bring the boat forward pile of dudes out get them out here and fighting you know charge and buckle your swash you know sure and it's been fascinating seeing them the the last season of KO armies with purple sun and without purple sun sure and the difference that right that that rend has made and the competitiveness I mean it's not surprising it's it's the thing that like KO was struggling to push through without the ren buff that purple sun has given them yeah yeah I mean that that's just a glow up in 3.0 to to help them get there and find I mean that's because that's ultimately one of the things you got to do with this book it's finding that sweet spot right yeah in their their dps their damage output you can take under take over easily sure anytime you've got powerful shooting it can happen right but I think somewhere in there you could play with the numbers to get the right to get to the right all right and we our last one let's bring this to a close now we're done well we we can close this out we're good if we'll just we'll do Tom's joke which is we just get rid of this army and we're done there we go there is no Sarah we're going to keep doing this stupid yeah we're going to keep doing this stupid joke I'm sorry everybody keep your comments coming about how much you hate this the as I said so somebody that the hate is sincere and genuine absolutely um and by the way beefy crunched give a charge bonus in your turn while making Arco's charge out of a boat love it absolutely like making them good okay seraphon so uh step one do seraphon feel like they should I guess is the answer um this is such a huge army with so many war scrolls so much of it is old if this this I could see potentially being like a redesign book where they actually do redesign a bunch of the kids this summer is summer 2023 yes it's going to get a number of yeah we're going to get a refresh I think on this section this could very well happen uh and like I see it as entirely possible for a major part of this range to get refreshed they love these stupid lizards I don't know why but here we are um glad to have you on the team sure I mean I say that I have a seraphon army it's a pretty big one too um but okay the number one most important thing we can do with seraphon like jokes aside the number one most important thing we can do with seraphon is jettison the insane complexity of this army this army has rules on top of rules on top of rules on top of rules good god it is insane for like no reason why is it like this okay why am I like this is so overcooked and I don't even mean like bent good I just mean overcooked like it's got too many choice points too many things you're deciding every round and doing and remembering and all of that right uh and uh so like number one is cut it down to be like way more simple in its implementation of the thing that's number one if there's like any book that needs the 3.0 simplified you know rules treatment boy is it these guys okay and uh the and then just from there I I I'm not sure exactly what I would do to balance this out because we have again we have this challenge where we're gonna have a lot of units competing in the same role sure you know you have so many heroes so many foot units so many monsters it's it's just a lot right yeah what uh what to do about it on the it was funny reading this battle tone for the first time I remember it just it like okay they've got all the buffs and some debuffs and it's just like they got all the rules so I definitely agree with that basic point it's it's a little too much I know there are a lot of players who love complexity you know we talked about Benjansava that that wonderful tweet that he sent out years ago whenever it was on his enjoyment of luminous complexity but anyway uh is it so yeah I mean maybe they do pare down some of these kits we will get because as we know a lot of this is quite old there's a lot of resin resin sure in the Seraphon line right now so maybe we'll get that treatment and then some new plastic kits to update some things the I mean there's a fair amount of power pairing I think that goes on already in the battle tone I haven't looked at this battle tone in quite a while there's a decent amount of it yes it's more like power piling than power pairing because you get like three skink heroes all humping the same unit every round it's like old dock the problem with old dock right where you had just like three heroes sitting there humping a single unit that would then run forward and do something and all right um obviously the coalesced buff is too strong like the neg1 damage even even restricted as it is is too strong I mean yeah it doesn't happen to skinks anymore skink is now only you know 90% the best keyword and that you can have in the game instead of 100% the best keyword you can have in the game we really move the needle there right um like it's just such a versatile force and by the way I don't that just because we simplify it doesn't necessarily mean you have to get rid of the of the uh like the capability to build these different types of lists I don't want to see that shrink right yeah it just means we don't have to have skinks do all these insane buffs all over the place like crazy wacky town right um beefy crunch said what's one war scroll do you each want to remain the same in the new book as it was in this book not croak hmm boy that is really tough because I'm not sure there's many I wouldn't change is my honest answer like I'm trying to like the bestilodon uh yeah the bestilodon but I wouldn't allow the double shooting the bestilodon's fine if he doesn't double shoot he's a perfectly reasonable scary artillery piece that is tough as a coffin nail right like he has that one up save it's only the double shooting that pushes him over the line because like obviously that the it just duh plus 100 efficiency is too good right like of course I think the slant star I mean that might be a little cheating because it's similar to crypt but the slant star master I think is in a pretty good place uh yeah he's powerful but I'm not sure that's wrong like I don't know that yeah yeah ashlet bear somebody mentioned ashlet bear yeah maybe yeah I don't know that I have a huge problem what he's doing I mean in generally he's kind of an interesting piece and that he offers a little utility little protection sure maybe yeah he's giving the given the range extension which which is good oh I got an easy answer for you here you ready what war scroll I can't leave it in thinking this right off right off the rib skinks skinks and here's why I say that Tyler the war scroll of skinks is fine okay there's no you're right yeah yeah with the skink war scroll it's exactly what they should be nonsense it's the it's the nonsense they get that has gotten or gets piled on them at various points in this book's history that makes them insane absolutely right but the the skink itself is fine like that's probably what a skink should play like Sora should be better the Soros lord on Carnasaur should be like much better and actually have Ren we shouldn't have to have like you know I played a coalesced all in like buff army with the skink lord on the skink chieftain sorry on stegadon and and you know Carnasaur lord and all this and you know I have like four different profiles on these monsters and every one of them was getting a different number of bonus attacks right like okay the guy on top gets one and then this attack gets two bonus attacks this one gets four bonus attacks and this one gets three bonus attacks and I had to literally sit there and like hash mark out exactly the number of attacks I was getting every round and I'm like this is nonsense this is complete and utter nonsense right that should I shouldn't need an abacus to play a single unit a solo one model unit that's that's complete dumb it's complete trash right right and by the way this should be a force that isn't very hero hammering like it's just not the this is always a force that should rely on the backbone of the spawning pools of like Soros and skinks with the skinks largely acting as chaff and distraction pieces and chameleons and blowpipes and yada yada and the Soros being the backbone that pushes and maybe some Kroger yes ha I said it uh to like um to to like you know do some damage over the top or or be a little hard hitting hammer right um but I think most scrolls I would modify in some way mainly what I'm thinking of here is the heroes and all the different dumb buffs that they give you know like every skink hero shouldn't be giving out crazy awesome buffs like the best buffs in the game sure right but Soros warriors should basically be you know somebody said who is it kang said Soros should look like chaos warriors yeah I don't know I don't know I just agree with that I think that's actually a pretty good template for them you know there are these big genetically bred sort of warrior born things yeah sure why not like it's their version of the thing right it's always been a disconnect yeah and what you think they should be and what they are right um Sam said 95 of the scrolls are fine some actions and buffs need rework I don't know if I I mean Sam would know better than I would I don't get the impression that it's quite that high it depends on what he means by the scrolls are fine because like a lot of the scrolls have buffs on them that are problematic sure right that's the issue I mean certainly he's dead right on the sub factions yes obviously those are all insane and and we definitely should get us in the entire sub faction system they have and and make it again more about play style than about uh this is the unit that this one is all about and so on and so forth right yeah there's a number of war scrolls that I hardly ever see uh from the battle tone which is part of the course with the battle tone with a bunch of war scrolls that's usually what we've we've been saying for a while that uh yeah play a lot of work needs to go into the sub factions so on the when you think about their play style on the table again connecting it to the lore how well do you feel there's connection or disconnect there you're pretty decent I mean they have some pretty scattered lore because the difference between coalesced and star mourn and stuff like that right um you know I think it would be cooler like maybe we don't need a summoning mechanic in this army um maybe instead we just play around with like the silver tower type mechanic and they put people in their spaceships that can then ambush down like they can keep units in reserve and just drop them out of their spaceships onto the board um you know maybe that's what the starborn do because they're not I don't know where they're summoning these things from I understand they're remembering them back in existence like whatever whatever um but you know they've remembered them all back into existence now and we know they have spaceships we saw a cool picture of art of one crashed in the middle of ger so why not have some troops on those spaceships who are ready for for you know fast deployment right um so like yeah just you could get rid of the whole summoning sub mechanic and just have them dropping things from a spaceship the coalesce are just kind of angry dinosaurs that are here and have gone more feral and and something like that I don't think the coalesce starborn distinction is bad it's a little bit like it's been a little bit retconned but that's okay lots of lots of war is retconned it doesn't necessarily make it bad it just means that like you we need a uh I don't know what to say like a a way to kind of um express it without being broken and changing the summoning and getting rid of the negative damage feels like the correct way to do that yeah definitely keng the new slaves actually it's giving me hope for the next serf on some they're like mirrors of one another I could they could see that looking at I mean they're both large model ranges and yeah it feels like serf on would be amenable to enabling multiple play styles you know through thoughtful development of these sub factions the way that yeah I mean not all of the slaves are bangers with their sub actions but most of them are yeah yeah they're pretty good so and and again those feel like the right kind of design I don't disagree I think you could use s2d as a template for this right um by the way stigmas maximus beam me down scotie sco sk o apostrophe ti holy crap that that cracked me up right there that's that's really good um yeah I you know I think you're I think you're dead on I think honestly if you just sort of lifted the concepts a lot of the sort of concepts and breakdowns of the way units work um that would be maybe you do a little less of like the you know s2d has the marks and is very very very very focused on independent operators I'm not sure that's the same trick here there is definitely some need for the synergy here the force thematically does work through some amount of synergy through having the leaders command their their troops in a pretty active way um and so I think you could you could probably find a pretty good middle ground there um where it's just kind of expressed through one straightforward mechanic of buffs instead of three different layers of it right and and I think maybe the way you could you could do that is again if you up the source war scroll and make it better and get rid of all the stupid skink layering I think then instead you could have sort of tilting buffs that like a tilting buff you can kind of push around each turn to make your units lean into a certain way they want to act as you're as you're activating that the feral instincts of these of these things right because that's kind of the concept is that the slon can really not mind control them but sort of you know he sort of has good command of these things right um they respond to his will and so he can kind of tap into it every round giving them a little like pushing them to be in one general direction of the other and so it's kind of a thing you can set during your turn and then they get some kind of bonus and just make it a blanket thing that can apply to different troops yeah that's cool but not not the other heroes or big maybe big monsters of a certain type or something like that like your your uh old one on carnosaur doesn't get that bonus because he's obviously in charge of himself right he's you know yeah like he's he's at this point good he's he's on his own to be independent that kind of thing man he said sorry I was just recovering again from the abomination of that kroyger pronouncement see when you type it manny I just makes me say it again okay yeah it doesn't feel that far off the I mean there's some good bones there with the seraphon battle tone and I do hope that they get the line refresh so many of us are are looking for but we'll see that you know there's been dude there's yeah there's been so many little but with the new croak model just so many things right that we're seeing the new little lizards that have come out yeah exactly like what's in that second war cry box set the and croak it's obvious that the sculptors have a bead on doing incredible versions of these so I think it could be there and you know what it's fine that the seraphon would get their entire refresh before the scaven would it just means ours will be twice as awesome when it comes it's all sure beads yeah all right ferris army and warhammer the scaven the most fair army and warhammer you got it all right folks well there you go hey what do we miss what would you do what are your ideas that we 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