 Welcome to Inside Hawai'i Real Estate. I'm Will Tanaka and I'm very honored to be the host for this show, Inside Hawai'i Real Estate, where we take a deep dive into our Hawai'i Real Estate industry across all islands. And today we have a very special guest, Real Estate and Kandolo attorney, Jane Sugimura. Aloha, Jane. Welcome. Hi. Hi, Will. Thank you for being here. Yeah, very honored. So Jane is a Jersey girl. She was born and raised there, but has lived most of her life in Hawai'i. So are you a Jersey girl or your local girl? I think I'm a local girl. When I go back to New Jersey, they tell me I talk funny. Okay, there it is, local, local Hawai'i girl, Jane. Okay. So Jane, I mean, she's super experienced. She's a senior counsel of Clay Chapman, Iwamura, Polis, and Nevelle. She's an expert in Kandolo. She's very active with the Kando Associations. In fact, you're the president of the Hawai'i Council of Associations of Apartment Owners. You're also the president of the AOAO of your building in Aya. You're super involved in the legal community in your, you know, in the neighborhood community. So I know you're, you know, very involved. Yes. I am a neighborhood board. So I'm involved in, you know, local democratic politics. So yeah. Okay. Yeah. And you know, today's topic, I mean, it's really relevant. It's always a hot topic. It's pets and Kando Associations. You know, I remember I grew up with dogs, cats, rabbits, turtles, goldfish, you name it, you know, and let's face it, pets are a family because, you know, 85% of dog owners I read and 76% of cat owners consider pets as family, not as property. So pets are family, you know, for the, in most people's eyes. So, you know, we hear about pet friendly Kando's right in Hawai'i. And when we talk about pet friendly Kando's, what does that mean? What does that really mean? That means that these are condominiums where you don't have to ask if pets are allowed because there are some buildings that do not allow pets. Okay. And so, you know, and it's an easy question. You go into, you know, the management company, or if you're, you know, and ask, are you pet friendly building or they'll tell you right away if there are no pets building. Okay. And the condominiums have things called governing documents called the declaration and bylaws. So if you're a prospective buyer, there are rules in place. And I think you as a realtor know that when you sell a Kando, there's a package of documents that a prospective buyer gets. And inside that package, you have the condominium declaration. And the declaration is a legal document that creates the condominium. It tells you what it is. It's a 10 story building, you know, with 10 units on each floor. And you have one bedroom and two bedrooms and a one bedroom consists of this and that and the two bedroom consists of whatever, but it tells you what a condominium is. And then you have your bylaws that tells you how the condominium operates and governs itself because condominiums are self governing by statute and the chapter and the statute is chapter 514 b Hawaii revised statutes chapter 514 b tells you how a condominium is supposed to operate. So for a prospective buyer, would they be looking in the declaration, the bylaws of the house rules? Where would it say pet friendly? Sometimes the house rules, the pet prohibitions sometimes are in the house rules, but they shouldn't be. They shouldn't be in the house rules, but sometimes they are. Okay. Typically they are in the bylaws. Got it. Got it. Okay. In the bylaws, if there is a no pet provision, it's in the bylaws. And, you know, historically, I think when condos were built, you know, you have to have a declaration and bylaws to create a condominium. And I don't think any of the condominiums had pet prohibitions. But, you know, as things evolve, you know, you had people saying, you know, I don't like pets in the building. Are you getting enough people who say I don't want pets in the building? They adopt a bylaw amendment. So the there are buildings in town that have what they call a no pets amendment. It's in the bylaws. And it says that you are not allowed to have any pets and they define pets. And it's usually dogs and cats. And usually for some reason, birds and fish are not considered those types of pets. Okay. So, okay. Let's go back to the pet-friendly buildings. So if it's a pet-friendly condominium, does that mean that, okay, dogs, cats, any other types of animals, getting pigs or chameleons, exotic animals? I think, you know, each building has its own, what do you call it, rules. And so what somebody would want to do, or the realtor who's representing the renter or the prospective buyer, would want to look at the bylaws and the house rules, because that will tell you what kind of pets. And, you know, I'm told, too, that with some pet-friendly buildings, they have limitations, like you can't have a pit bull, you know, mainly because they're aggressive, you know, and something about insurance. But, you know, I'm not aware of a law or a rule that says that you can do that. But I'm told that there are some condominiums, you know, that are pet-friendly, who will say that, or they'll say, you can't have a dog that's over 75 pounds or something. You know what I mean? The limitations are in the bylaws, if they're there. And I know with pet-friendly buildings, they do have limitations. In other words, you can't have 100 dogs. Yeah. Right, right. I mean, you can't, you know, have a breeding unit in the condo. Usually, in a condominium, when you have residential units, you can't operate a business. That's prohibited, usually, in a residential condominium. So, you can't operate any kind of a business, which even a babysitting business, you're not allowed to operate in a residential condominium. So, pet-friendly doesn't necessarily open the door for any type of pets. I mean, there's restrictions on weight limit possibly, the number of pets, and even the breed, like you mentioned. Right. And then, how do the condos monitor this? So, for example, if there's a weight limit of 25 pounds. Well, usually when you move in, when you move in, like you register your car, you usually register your animal. And some, and I've seen some rules, and you know, there are attorneys in town who deal nothing, they do only with condominiums. There's specialists in condominiums, and they do the package, you know, the house rules and whatnot. And so, when they do the house rules, especially now, because we've had to deal with fair housing, you have a lot more people going to the attorneys to get rules, you know, because with fair housing, if you're, you know, you're required to have animals, the law says that, you know, they are subject to reasonable rules of the association. So, that's why, you know, people have been running to their lawyers and saying, you know, we got to have the, you know, we got all of these animals in our building. And so, we need to have reasonable rules, you know, that are going to protect us and not get us into trouble with, you know, the courts. Oh, got it, got it. So, the rules, the rules have evolved. And, you know, you can, if an association wants to set up, you know, rules relating to animals, it would be in the house rules, be part of the house rules, relating to animals. So, we're talking about pet-friendly condos. And you said, I think you had mentioned earlier that there's more pet-friendly condos than there are non-pet-friendly condos, just generally speaking. I don't know for sure, but to me, logically, it would seem, because everybody started off with no pets. And as, and it would have evolved because you had 67, it takes 67% to amend your bylaws. So, you know, that's not easy, right? It's not easy to get 67% of the owners to vote. And, you know, you have to have a meeting, you have to have proxies. And so, you have to have 67% of the ownership interest voting for this bylaw amendment. So, I would think that there are more pet-friendly buildings than there are non-pet-friendly. Well, let's talk about the non-pet-friendly condos, because I've been to non-pet-friendly condos, but I've seen pets in non-pet-friendly condos. So, why is this, how does this happen? There's something called fair housing. There is a federal law and a state law. And both laws are based on discrimination, which says that you, and I'm paraphrasing, which, and the law says that if somebody is disabled and needs to have an animal so that they can enjoy their unit, then you as a housing provider cannot discriminate against that person, and you need to break, you need to bend your rules and offer a reasonable accommodation so that the disabled person can then enjoy their housing. If you don't allow people who have a disability to come into your condominium because they have an animal, and the animal alleviates symptoms of the disability, then you're prohibiting that person from coming into your building to live. And an easy example are service animals, somebody who's blind and needs to see my dog. Okay, that's easy. That's an easy one. But then you have people who have emotional disabilities, right? And maybe, what is it, PSAD, the post-traumatic syndrome? Yeah. Right? So that, you can't tell by looking at a person, right? And, but, you know, those, you know, maybe somebody has that type of disorder and they need a comfort animal or an emotional support animal. And so fair housing, and there's a state law and a federal law says that, you know, you cannot discriminate. If you have somebody with a disability, they need an animal to, in order to cope with their disability, you need to allow the animal to be in the unit. And under fair housing, the animal's not a pet. Okay? And, but, you know, what the association is doing is they have to make a reasonable accommodation, which means that even though they have a bylaw that says no pets allowed, right? They have to allow that person with a disability in. Okay. And there is a process. It's not like, you know, you can just come in and say, oh, I have a disability and I have an animal, a comfort animal, and you got to let me in. That's not how it works. Okay. Let's take a step back back to a service animal where someone's blind or they have a disability that's maybe more obvious. Yes. So in that case, do they have to provide some type of proof or certificate or no proof is required? Okay. How about for emotional comfort animals? They have to provide documentation. Okay. And what is the key thing that they have to provide is they have to provide a letter from a licensed or certified health care professional. And it could be a doctor. It could be a nurse. It could be a psychologist. It could be a social worker or a case worker, right? And all that person has to do is to say, is this John Doe is my patient or is my client? He has a disability that is recognized by and they put in the statute, which is fair housing, which is the federal statute or, you know, the state statute. I think it's Chapter 531 or something like that. And he has a disability, you know, that's recognized by the statute. And if you will allow him to have this comfort animal, that comfort animal, in my professional opinion, will alleviate the symptoms of the disability. Those are the magic words. Okay. And they sign it. And it's on professional stationary. And they had, and they, and so that letter goes to the board of directors. Because what the board is asked to do is to grant a reasonable accommodation from the no pets provision that governs the operation of the condominium. So now the animal gets in. But when a board grants the reasonable accommodation, and in our case, and I'm sure this is standard, we instruct our property manager because we don't, the board doesn't talk to the owner and say, okay, we've granted your reasonable accommodation. They get a letter from the managing agent of the association. And that managing agent is usually in the board meetings. And so, you know, we instruct our managing agent then to write to the person who asked for the reasonable accommodation. And so they get a letter saying, Dear John Doe, the board has reviewed your request for reasonable accommodation. And your reasonable, your request has been granted. However, under the rules, under the law, you know, under the Hawaii, federal law, whatever, their housing laws, you are required to abide by the reasonable rules of the association regarding your pet. And if you fail to comply with the reasonable rules, you may be asked to get rid of, to remove the animal. In other words, you can have the animal, but you got to abide by the rules, otherwise the animal's gone. They're told that. Yeah. So in terms of the reasonableness of the rules, can you give me an example? You need to clean up after the animal, after it does this business. And some rules say that you can't walk your animal on the common areas. You have to walk on the sidewalk so that they can't poop or urinate on the common areas, because a lot of the common areas are kind of, you know, maybe adjacent or upwind, right? From units. And, you know, if your windows are open, your laminae doors open, you know, and you have a lot of dogs, you don't want to smell the urine and the feces, the smell, right? So some condominiums don't allow the animals to be walked in the common areas near the units, right? So you have to walk kind of far away from the units. Also, a standard rule is you got to have your dog on a leash, and you have to be in control of the animal at all times. And some of the rules say that you have to carry the animal in the common areas. And, you know, and there are reasons for that. I mean, and you have to have the animal vaccinated so it's healthy. And, you know, you need to also make sure that it's registered. And we ask also for insurance. And then, you know, with condos, we have something called an HL6, which is the homeowner's policy. And many condos ask for it anyway. Some of some condominiums it's required, mainly because the older buildings, you know, they have water problems and but it has nothing to do with animals. So, you know, these HL6 policies, you know, all owners are required to have them. And so we ask them to make sure that they have the insurance, mainly, you know, because if the animal, you know, bites somebody or causes damage that there is a policy that will cover the, you know, the claim. So in those type of cases when it's a service animal, I'm sorry, an emotional comfort animal or therapy animal where you need to provide certification that are from a health professional. Can anyone ask for that? So let's say you're a neighbor, or it has to be. It goes to the board of directors of the association. Got it. Got it. Okay. The neighbors can't ask. I mean, they can ask. But, you know, I don't think, you know, they have to provide it. Oh, this is interesting. I mean, this is a really hot topic. I mean, there's something called HIPAA. And, you know, HIPAA, you know, it says that, you know, you are, you know, you are entitled to privacy regarding your medical issues. And, you know, so, so, you know, you're not required to tell people about any disability. You're not required to, you know, and people aren't required to ask. We cannot ask, what is your disability? The letters don't tell us what the disability is. The letters say, this John Doe has a disability that's recognized under the statute. Okay. Because the statute defines what the disability is. So we can't ask. And they don't have to tell us. This is, yeah, I'm learning so much, Jane. This is a really, yeah. You can understand, if you were disabled, would you want the whole world to know what your disability was? I mean, some people don't care, but, you know, and it's a personal preference. But yeah, I mean, most people, I wouldn't want people to know. Yeah. And so there is a right of privacy regarding your health information. It's called HIPAA. And so the board cannot, and so we, when we do, when we do these requests for reasonable accommodation, we don't do it in the public portion of the meeting. We do it in executive session. So it's not like the owners out there know, I mean, they know who gets it because they see the people with the dogs. But they're not there when we make the decision. So in those type of cases where, you know, they're trying to get approval to have a pet in a non-pet friendly building, how long does the approval process take? Well, in our situation, our board meets once a month. And so we get the request, like I said, I have two on my, I have a board meeting tonight. And I have two in the packet. And so we knew about them about two weeks ago. And so the animals are already in the building. Oh, okay. Got it. They're already in the building. And so, and when they come in, they, you know, when they move in or they want to move in, that's one of the questions that we ask them. If you have a pet. And we tell them this is a no, you know, it's not, it's a no pet building. And if they say, well, I have a disability, we give them the policy. And we tell them, you need to, you know, go and get a letter from a licensed professional and ask for reasonable accommodation. Otherwise the animal cannot be in the building. Wow. Okay. So in terms of the condo rules for pets, what are some rules that pet owners may not know about that, you know, you've been involved in as part of the association in your building or as a whole? Well, you know, they're, you know, they're pretty standard. I mean, you've got to keep your dog in control. You've got to, you know, they can't make noise. I think, you know, and they can't be a nuisance is, you know, is a general terminology. In other words, they can't bark. They can't be aggressive. And, you know, you need to be in control of the animal at all times. I mean, that's, that's like the bottom line rule on, you know, how you're supposed to, you know, deal with your animals in, in a no pets building. So what happens if they break the rule? For example, the dogs are constantly barking. They try to, you know, attack someone else. They will get a notice of violation. And then at some point, after, you know, maybe two or three notices of violation, it will get turned over to the attorney who will be dealing with, you know, if, you know, if to try to see if they can, you know, be resolved. And, you know, you know, with no pets building, I mean, what I'd like to, you know, to let your audience know, there are people who actually move into our building because it's a no pets building. There are some people who have allergies. They cannot be around dogs or cats. And there are people who, you know, who have, who are afraid of dogs. You know, maybe you were a paper boy when you were young and you, you know, some dog chased you and bit you. And so now you're afraid, you know, you're afraid of dogs. And there are some people who just don't like animals and don't want to be around them. And so they purposely choose to live in, and when they, you know, buy into a building, they'll ask, is this a pet friendly building or not? And, and, you know, what I'm hearing in my building, which is a no, you know, we have a no pets bylaw. I mean, a couple of months ago, I had a bunch of owners show up at my board meeting and they were very angry. They wanted to know what were all these dogs doing in the no pets building. And, you know, it creates, I mean, when you have multi-family buildings, when you have disharmony or just, you know, when you don't have people who get along, I mean, it's hard enough when you've got multiple families living in one building. Right. It's hard enough because people are different and people of different habits. But when you have people who, who, who kind of moved into the building because there were no animals, all of a sudden there's these dogs and they want to know how come the dogs are here. And we tell them, well, we have to let them in because there's a federal and state law. And if we don't allow them in, then, you know, we could get fined big money. And, you know, so, you know, we, we, and the, the entity that does the, what do you call it, the enforcement is the Hawaii Civil Rights Commission because they deal with disabled people, the rights of the disabled, right? That makes sense. And the federal agency is HUD. And so all of the federal claims are assigned to the Hawaii Civil Rights Commission. So they are authorized to, you know, to prosecute claims under the federal law and the state law. So if they get a complaint, then the, you know, Hawaii Civil Rights Commission will send an investigator over and they want, you know, then they'll want to talk to people and, and if they find that you violated, they will, and the fines are not small. We're talking $10,000, $25,000. And your management staff has to end up attending one of these training sessions. Or you're talking about if the condo association board of directors are found to discriminate under the fair housing rules. And it's a hefty fine against the condo association. Yes. Yes. And they, and the fines have occurred. And so, you know, so we know that, you know, they happen and, you know, and nobody wants to pay that money. Right. You know, you don't want to pay the fine. You know, so we have to, you know, strike this balance between, you know, people who want to have pets and, you know, people who don't. And that's why I guess, you know, when you live in a condo, you know, you have to be, you have to be, accept, I mean, you have to reciprocate. The people who have animals, they have to understand that they're living in a building where some people are deathly afraid of animals. That's not their fault. You know. And so you need to respect their rights as well. And that means if, if you have this big dog, and you have somebody who's afraid of dogs, you might want to wait and not get into the elevator with people and wait for an empty elevator and go in. And that way, if you're in the elevator by yourself and the door opens to somebody who doesn't want to, you know, share an elevator with an animal, they don't have to get it, you know. But it's very awkward if you, there are people in an elevator and you have this dog and you get in the elevator and they're deathly afraid of the animal or they're allergic to the animal. And, you know, it makes it for a very awkward, uncomfortable situation. And like I said, when people live together in a building, it can lead to some strange hostilities that make it very uncomfortable for other people, you know, who don't care one way or the other. But nobody wants to be in a situation where you have residents that are hostile to each other. You know, that's a very important. That's a great point. That's a great point, Jane. I mean, we learned so much today about pets, condo associations. You are the expert on this topic. And, you know, is there any final words from you? Well, you know, to me, like I said, you know, there are people, you know, who, you know, who don't like to be around pets. And there are so many pet-friendly condominiums, you know, in the state of Hawaii, that if people have animals, I mean, I suggest that they look to the pet-friendly buildings, you know, if they, and even where we live, there might be, I think there's about six or eight condos right in our loop. And I know four of them are pet-friendly. So it's not like you can say, oh, well, I chose your building because, you know, that's where I wanted to live. And there's four other buildings right in the same area who are pet-friendly and wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't have to ask for a reasonable accommodation. You know, and to me, I would think that that would be preferable than living in a hostile environment where people give you stink dye and, you know, or, you know, they don't want to get into the elevator with you because you have a dog. You know, it just, it's just very uncomfortable. Oh, this is a harder topic than we expected. So you have, you know, thank you so much for sharing your wealth of information, your knowledge, you know, in real estate and condo law. And I am confident that our audience has, you know, learned so much about condos and pet-friendly and non-pet-friendly condominium. So thank you so much, Jane. Okay, you're welcome. Yeah, I really appreciate you.