 Hello everyone welcome to another video So if you haven't been watching my channel all week and been living under a rock literally you would have already known that I've been going at a head-to-head with a Australian news outlet called Channel 7 They put a hit piece out on veganism A really disgraceful 100% bias hit piece Upon investigation because it was so suspicious We found out that the chairman of Channel 7 is actually a billionaire beef tycoon surprise surprise I know they gave me a master interview and because I'm a little bit suspicious of these media places I actually recorded the master interview now. It's an audio recording This wasn't a private conversation if you want to say I'm releasing private conversations It wasn't there were six other people in the room literally I was a little bit suspicious that my cameraman wasn't allowed in the room So we couldn't film you know the the whole interview and then release it later This is the first interview that I've done that I'm not allowed to actually film as well the full scope of this interview is here It's the whole interview so you can see exactly what they omitted What they left out the help, you know my health arguments You know the full scope of what I said you can see exactly how they edit these pieces and what they put in So I'm sure old Denham the old bloke that interviewed me won't mind because this was a completely public conversation There's six other people. This was completely recorded Channel 7 just choose to release what they want I'm releasing the full interview here and You guys can watch it through and get a proper idea of how they edit these pieces together what they use what they don't and Just in the interest of full transparency Which I don't think Denham would have said anything that he wouldn't have said publicly anyway I was doing most of the talking and Yeah, here it is Watch it through. It's quite interesting Tell us what you think in the comment section and I hope you all enjoy the full interview that Channel 7 Sunday night gave me Here it is The UK is becoming One of the vegan capitals of the world now the movement is growing rapidly over here There's a lot of activism over here there's more vegan options here because there are more vegans here basically and I Felt that this would was the perfect place for the message to spread really fast because there's 66 million people here on a small island in Australia There's like 20 million people spread out on the second biggest continent on earth so for me we could travel city to city with this message training activists and You know it actually showed because the first few months of me touring here last year in January a massive media You know Campaign happened basically by virtue of a documentary Refilmed with the BBC. Yeah, and after that they found out a bit about my past and then they sort of It was more like a it's like they targeted me used me as sort of a poster boy for veganism And they like to attack my character a lot bring out my past as of crime and Drugs, but for me, I felt like that part of it, right? Yeah. Yeah it has to be part of it in a way because That's the man behind the message. Yeah, and also like I think media really do like the controversy as well They want to they want something to latch on to and for me like if that was my sort of trojan horse To be able to speak the animals message in the media and so be I'm willing to be the punching bag for the media If I can still say pigs are lowered down into gas chambers Cows are forcibly impregnated had their children stolen from them and killed So I'm still okay. I can still be the message for the animals. Even if I'm the punching bag for the media is that Did you have the same message when you knew when you were in Australia the same message? Yeah. Yeah, but I'm our receptive Is it there compared to over here? I feel like the vegan movement's growing really big in Australia really quick it's just for me here was Um easier for me to travel around from city to city and like Australia was a lot more flying But here I was allowed to cover a lot more ground a lot easier and The media in Australia have been on to it as well recently. There's been a release of a film called dominion Which highlights, you know, you've seen Dominion. Yeah, it's Full-on full-on. I mean, it's two hours of some of the most hectic footage you'll ever see and People say well, they're isolated incidents. You know, they've taken the worst of the worst But a lot of these investigations are only a couple of days. They're leaving cameras in there Okay, they're just leaving a camera cameras in for a couple of days and they're pulling stuff out And they're always finding horrific stuff in these places and yeah So the dominion movement has been huge in Australia and it's sort of bringing light to the darkness It's bringing what happens behind closed doors. What happens in secrecy out to the public's view and it's like well here you go This is what mass produced animal products look like. Do you think this is more unjustified? Yeah, so anyone that's seen that film would hope that that's certainly not the case in most farms Even the large industrial ones because if you looked at that footage, I mean, it's harrowing a lot of it It's extremely harrowing and when you have industry bodies that then come out and say well This is not the majority of industry. These are isolated cases. We're moving to banned pig stalls and so forth Then you've got two messages from extreme sides of the fence Do you trust the industry that wants to protect itself or do you trust the vegans that don't want you to meet? Well, the vegans who want to defend animals and the industry who have vested interest Okay, but both groups have vested interests vested in monetarily well Moral your moral interest is surely greater than anything month error. Yeah, but see industry are making money off the exploitation and murder of animals Vegans care about animals and are speaking up against it as an issue of justice. Okay, so who would you trust? Well, I'd say that both motivations are just as strong Yeah, one's motivated by money and exploit exploiting beings. You can't speak for themselves and the others are motivated by Justice Imperative emotional attachment justice dramas and monetary. Yeah, and and like we live in a society that you know We have laws protecting human beings You know, we even have laws protecting certain animals But when it comes to industry exploiting and killing millions of animals all of a sudden it's you know, it's just business Yeah Oh Yeah, that's what it was like for me, man. Yeah, and I was just like everyone else Eating the same big steaks every single night eating pigs for breakfast eating chickens for lunch I never thought twice about it. I'd buy free-range eggs because I thought that was a moral choice Never looked into this. I've trusted industry for so long and I was lied to I felt like I was betrayed And it all makes sense to me now What do you think about? Smaller farms I've worked on farms dairy farms Yeah My family has a sheep farm. Yeah as well and That's very different to what you seem to me Of course, you know, these animals are living a life and that life gets ended in the end But it's yeah, no idea the kind of torture or suffering That is betrayed on the farm. No. Yeah, and I know that they are farms that are like that and they Genuinely care about their animals. Okay, they've just been conditioned to see animals as a resource as products And I think it's the only way And I'm sure they do there are farms that have this high world best standard for their animals You know, they call them by their names and they come in the end of the day they're not viewing those animals as individuals in every sense because they're sending them to the slaughterhouse and what happens in There is morally reprehensible. It's absolutely disgraceful They're shot in the head and have their throat slashed open. So a lot of these farmers they feel like this is the way of life This is how it's always been they're brought into this Traditionally so it passed on But we're trying to change that it's not the only way and vegans aren't anti farming You know, we know we need plants for our survival for civilization We're just anti using sentient beings as products So the issue and the fight really isn't with farmers because farmers are just meeting a demand They grow what the public want. Okay, the public start wanting potatoes. They're going to grow more potatoes Okay, but at the moment the public want dairy cheese. They want flesh. So what are the farmers going to produce? Dairy cheese and flesh and if enough of the public want Lots and lots of meat. What do they have to do that to make factories to meet that demand? So the problem exists it all stems from viewing animals as products Where do you see the vegan movement today? Where do I see it today growing exponentially? People are waking up on mass Worldwide worldwide Worldwide, I mean you could take the most extreme scenarios of like out in some third world country. They're not Exposed to social media But I think from for the most part in the Western world Europe Australia America Canada it's growing exponentially because people have access to Freedom of information online. We have our own media now You seem to be at the very pointy end of that Well, I guess I am but the movement Collectively works together. So there's different facets of the movement. There's the plant-based doctors who have their own movement to do with human health and on You know revealing the lies of the medical industry. Okay, then we have the environmental movement Okay, we'll focus on know that the resources and the land use and the Amazon being destroyed to grow soy to feed to livestock and You know cattle ranching, which is destroying the lungs of the earth and then we have the animal rights movement Okay, which the word vegan is to do with animals Okay, you can be plant-based for health and still exploit animals in other ways, but the word vegan is to do with animal rights Not viewing animals as products using them. It's not just about what you eat is it? No Yeah, it's about unjustified use of animals. You know if we don't you know need to Then why are we doing it? You know, we always use animals as the first resort and it's because it's becoming you know destructive to our health and to the environment as well and We would never accept that for certain animals the treatment of even like if you take like this happy farm that you probably You've been on these farms for this high welfare status, and you probably haven't seen what you've seen in Dominion It's probably you know opened your eyes up to it a lot, but you know this happy farm You know they still get sent to the slaughterhouse to be chopped up for their bodies, you know Yeah, that's right, but they wouldn't be on the planet unless they were there for the farm for the people that grow Yeah, but they didn't be here if it wasn't for the farmers of breeding them into existence But does that morally justify murdering them for their bodies? I mean should they be grateful for that existence? I mean well is it better to have a lot than no lot at all is really the question Well, I would throw it into the human context, you know Is it is it moral to bring humans into existence for the sole purpose of using them as slaves and murdering them? We would never accept that so why do we accept it in the animal context? Is it moral to bring dogs into existence like they do in in certain parts of China where they're farming dogs into existence? For the sole purpose of murdering them for their bodies We would never accept that in that context So why do we accept it in the context of certain species of animals because we've been taught that certain species are Here for our use here to eat What if you just took it as more of a more a simple notion would a human being prefer to live than not have lived at all Isn't that the same for an animal? I don't want to live in a world Where it morally justifies murdering someone just because you brought them into the world You say someone When you're saying someone you're talking about I'm talking about sentient lives who have a subjective experience So when you look at an animal, there's a someone in there and this is the problem We don't see someone when we look at an animal And this is the basis of discrimination. We discriminate on them. We think there's no one there. They're things We look at them as objects They're not objects This part that you're on have you made more friends or more enemies? well The thing about social change is it's not comfortable and it never has been look throughout history You know all the great leaders of the past were hated You know and I'm not saying I'm a leader But each and every vegan who stands up against this injustice when the majority are contributing to it I'm going to have some Opposition, aren't they? We're forcing social change. This is how it happens. This is how history changes. We're changing the way society views animals Okay, animals cannot speak for themselves. That's the difference between their oppression and human oppression humans can Form coalitions to defend themselves. She will never be able to do that. Do you see yourself as a leader of this movement? I think I'm a leading voice, but I don't consider myself the leader of the movement There's many different people who you know are at the forefront You know, so I guess I would be one of the leaders, but we all are leaders in a sense One thing is of no doubt. That's the rise of vegan activism. Do you support that? Activism is the only way society will change, you know being vegan simply isn't enough being vegan means you've stopped participating in the injustice, okay It's a neutral position being vegan vegan activism is actively trying to change the situation for animals So you would never stand by while there was an injustice happening to say a dog being beaten on the street You know standing by and watching not participating in that dog being beaten that would be veganism Okay actively trying to stop the dog from being beaten would be vegan activism Charging in the restaurants to protest stealing animals from farms. Would you support that? Would I support that? I don't get it. So I support the reason they do it Okay, and I understand that the social change to happen these more you might consider more extreme forms of activism Need to happen as well. Okay, we all Work in different ways. So these statehouse disruptions. What do they do? They get people guys Are those extreme vegans and they're talking about it in the media and then all the vegan advocates can come in and go well We agree with the reason they're doing it I mean it might not technically turn those people in the restaurant vegan might you know cause some negative Press towards those people in there might cause some negative press towards vegans a little bit Oh, it may be a lot, but um It doesn't negate. Vegans that don't agree with it. Yeah. Yeah, there is there is because a lot of them If you look at the advocacy, I do it's public outreach Okay, so credit method respectful dialogue. Not always I've spilled in front of trucks before to stop trucks out front of slaughterhouses In my early days, I've said some pretty hectic things when I was very angry You know, rightly so when you see what happens in movies like Dominion Do I participate in those forms of activism? Not personally, but I 100% support the reason why they're doing it What's happening to animals is like if you want to talk about extreme, you know step inside of a slaughterhouse for five minutes We that that's extreme Some people will expect to determine as a form of almost a form of terrorism Some of these protests the busing in the steak houses, for instance interesting that word terrorism. Yeah the word in the word terrorism implies someone being terrorized and like Those activists are trying to stop animals from being literally butchered against their will Okay, so who's the real terrorists here? Who's really being terrorized here? It's just like saying, okay There's this bunch of people there. They're abusing these, you know Children or whatever the children can't defend themselves a bunch of activists come in Stop them and go stop abusing those children. Okay, or your actions are causing this abuse and murder of children Now, would you call those activists terrorists because they did something that was socially uncomfortable? It's different because of the terminology we use the terminology that we've set up It's an analogy. Okay Animals are innocent. They're sentient beings Okay, they can't defend themselves children are innocent as sentient beings. They can't defend themselves. Okay So I believe defending animals who can't defend themselves is akin to defending children who can't defend themselves They're both like for me morally on par I guess When it crosses into the realms of breaking into properties committing crimes things that are against the law I think does where most people have a big problem with it Yeah, I mean, I guess people have a problem with it because they have a problem with who you're defending But if they were human beings in those farms being tortured and abused Don't have no problem with some of trespassing in taking footage and bring it in that no one gets harmed in that situation And that exactly that's the problem that we view animals as lesser than now Not necessarily because even if there were certain species of animals in those farms dogs for instance That would be in torture and abuse no one would have a problem without give us trespassing on there to get gain that footage No one would it would be absolutely absurd to think that oh you would be You know in Sort of viewed down more for going on to someone's property just to take some footage Then you would for actually committing the abuse that happens in those farms Why aren't the farmers being judged for what's what happens in there and the activists have been Persecuted for simply going in there with cameras not harming anyone rescuing injured or sick animals taking them To be to sanctuary to be held, you know, they're viewed as extreme for the farmers who are doing it the Most of society who are consuming and paying for this cruelty aren't viewed as extreme Stealing implies animals a property now understand animals are considered property under law But they are sentient things at the end of the day Okay, they're enslaved I think laws have always been challenged now I don't break the law, you know commit crimes to do my activism Okay, but do I think like trespassing to onto someone's property to show the abuse that happens on their farm Is bad? No, I think it's a noble act I think it's a noble act and how would the public know what they're consuming if it wasn't for activists farmers aren't gonna You know show you what's up in there Can you be happy healthy to feel on a vegan diet? Happy and healthy in fulfilled. Yeah, of course. I mean a vegan diet doesn't necessarily mean a healthy guy Okay, because you can have vegan junk foods, you know chocolates and ice cream and pizza and processed vegan food Vegan means to not exploit animals unjustifiably But you know a whole foods plant-based diet is better for health I mean it reverses the number one killer of human beings heart disease So that's pretty big. I've read lots of studies Some of them supporting a vegan lifestyle others that don't as well So it really depends on which study that you're using. Yeah, and who they're funded by who studies are funded by Exactly, and some of them are Surprising results. I'm sure you know about the one in Austria recently 15,000 people in that study have found that Of the vegetarian and the vegans that they surveyed They had a healthy body weight But when it comes to visit to the doctors problems like the anxiety Depression was worse than the healthy meat eaters healthy meat eaters I'll have to look at this study and who they actually studied for this survey. Um, you know, I don't know what Who those who they looked into for that I mean, yeah, I all I can tell you is that cholesterol is Building up in people's arteries and causing the number one killer of humans we all know worldwide that number one killer of humans is heart disease, okay, and Saturated fat and cholesterol build up in people's arteries. I mean there's conflicting science You might say, you know, this one here is funded by the egg industry. They're saying cholesterol is good Yeah, yeah, but if we can be healthy Without you know doing what we do to animals and doing what we do for the environment To get that those animal products. Why wouldn't we I mean a question from a good friend of mine I spoke to a lot of people before we came on the story Who can't eat legumes can't have Very difficult to get a balanced diet as a vegan Yeah, but they can eat eggs which contain cholesterol and cause heart disease and you know environmentally destructive animal products and you know products that cause Exploitation and harmful animals I'm sure you could design a vegan diet to suit any medical condition I mean what you're talking about, you know, I'm my new fraction of society This wouldn't be true if you're applied across the board to the majority the majority of people can adhere to a vegan diet And you can design it in a certain way You'd be very aware of this or we're starting to understand a lot more about our gut and our gut health Yeah, and everybody responds differently to different foods and some people just don't respond well To a plant-based diet some people don't respond well to a meat-based diet I shouldn't we be eating for what our bodies are designed for or what they function best out a True carnival cannot develop heart disease from eating meat Okay, lions cannot develop heart disease from eating a strict meat-based diet Human beings are dying on mass from heart disease. Are you saying no vegans have heart disease vegans can get heart disease from eating oil Okay, deep fried food But a whole foods plant-based diet is the only diet proven to reverse the number one killer of humans So based on that alone, that should be the diet we all steer towards now There might be people who have trouble digesting fiber, but we can design a low fiber diet for those people There's really no moral justification for what we do to pigs in a gas chamber when we lower them down with that gas Murder them stab them in the throat drain them with their blood and you can say well, you know You know hurts my tummy or something. Does that really justify gas chambering and stabbing someone to death? I mean because we could apply this to dogs, you know, would we say oh, you know Big and diet doesn't work for everyone and maybe some people have some tummy issues with a bit of fiber Let's murder a bunch of dogs and eat their flesh because not everyone can be vegan. I mean I Guess what I'm looking out of prom is the way a lot of people would look at this argument and say Okay, let's put the let's put the animals stuff to one side. I know you can't do that But let's let's assume that somebody's doing this Can I be healthy on a vegan diet and they would look at a healthy omnibor versus a healthy vegan and a lot of studies would say that Those two people are just as healthy as each other except like let's just say one doesn't cause environmental destruction harm of animals and Those two things should be enough to sway towards the vegan diet I mean then the number one cause of Amazon Amazon deforestation, you know the lungs of the earth And I'm agriculture nothing comes close parmol doesn't even come close, you know, so environmental destruction alone species extinction Ocean dead zones water pollution land use we're feeding 50% of the world's grain to animals and There's starving children No, we're feeding all this grain to livestock livestock there. Those livestock are being bred by farmers 70 billion Land animals murdered every year. So it's it's a huge environmental impact That's causing so just based on that alone. Wouldn't we see it towards a plant-based diet and I? 7.7 billion people cannot continue eating meat in the way that in which we are that's in the way Do you think there's any sustainable way to but let's just take your scenario of Outdoor free-ranging farm, okay? cows take up how much more land than a factory farm situation Intensive farming is better for the environment, but it's horrifically cruel So these these cows are taking up humongous amounts of land. They're deforestation The land the grass feed cattle as well. I mean we just can't sustain it for the whole population So a plant-based diet is the only way to sustain our current population Is there enough land in the world to feed 7.7 billion people on a vegan diet? Well, they're currently growing enough They're currently growing enough 50% of the world's crops are fed to animals and you know animal agriculture So they're currently growing enough plants. It's just where they're feeding They're feeding them to all these animals while there's human beings starving So we have enough at the moment to feed the world's population. Yeah, more than enough more than enough On a vegan diet What about some of the nutrients that are Hard to define stuff like zinc, copper, iron, B12, omega-3s? The only nutrient People or the only vitamin people should be concerned about is B12 and that's across the board B12 is added to animal feed Injected into animals and animals also get it from eating the dirt when they pick up the grass So it's a bacteria found in the soil and the water Everything sanitized now fruits and vegetables are sanitized the dirt's been washed off The water we drink has been chlorinated. So the B12 Has been sort of essentially the bacteria that create the B12 has been Neutralized so we have to supplement and that's why the government added to you know Fortified foods and they're injecting it into the animals and putting it in the animal feed So we can get enough B12 everyone should be supplementing B12 including vegans and omnivores But other than that every other nutrient can be found in plants If not directly in the plants can be synthesized by the body What supplements do you take? I don't actually take any supplements. No, no the B12 is in my Sort of fortified vegan food So the soy milk that I drink is fortified with B12 the nutritional yeast that I sprinkled on my pasta or potatoes is Fortified with B12. So I don't take any supplements What about this argument? I know this is one you spoke about a bit that Haven't we evolved this way humans have evolved do it mean to digest dairy isn't this just evolution? It doesn't make it moral if we've evolved to do something that's inherently cruel I mean we've done many things in our past that are Inherently immoral and we wouldn't continue to do them just based on you know evolution Our stomach you know just because we can digest meat doesn't mean it's optimal and Doesn't mean we should continue to do it. I mean there might have been situations in the past and I'm on board with that where you know They're hunting animals and doing something to survive doing doing what they had to do to survive It doesn't morally justify it now and the fact is that it's destroying literally gone to obliterate the environment Okay, destroying human health and it's inherently cruel and abusive. So it's something that we need to change Are we not the apex predator? Isn't this a fact of life a circle of life? We'll define an apex predator What do you mean by an apex predator? I mean I could throw you in the ocean with a shark And I'm sure you wouldn't be a predator in that scenario I'm sending the time on land. We are the apex predator. We don't have we don't have an animal that threatens our species Being an apex predator does not morally justify abusing the innocent and defenseless if we have alternatives Okay, this is not the animal kingdom animals I've been to the Serengeti watch animals eat each other alive. Is it any worse? Well, is it any worse? You wouldn't eat me alive just because you saw a tiger do that So you wouldn't mirror the actions of an animal in a moral civilized society So you don't look at what lions do in a survival situation on the savannah and go oh, we should act like lions We would never apply that in any other context. We're a civilized Society, okay, so we have moral agency animals in the wild do not so we have a responsibility to act in a moral way I guess the point I'm making is If animals were left to roam freely, it's a brutal world for them out there. They eat each other alive So it is what we're doing all that different If animals were allowed to roam freely, we wouldn't be breeding Billions of them into existence to subjugate them torture and kill them every year Okay, if we were there to be guardians of the earth be guardians of the animals, okay intervene when necessary live more, you know in Alignment with nature with that with animals then that would be better than what we're doing now What happens in nature? Happens in nature good and bad things both happen in nature We can't use what happens in nature to morally justify our actions in a civilized society Isn't that what life is though Joey a beautiful struggle that ends in tragedy. It doesn't justify murder That's what life is. This is just the way it is You know, we have a responsibility to act in a moral way It wouldn't justify me going up to someone's dog and stabbing them in the throat eating their body parts You might say well, that's a bit extreme But that's what we're doing we're going the lions in the jungle eat me aren't our design to eat me so I can go and kill whoever Whatever animal I want and eat their bodies because lions do that and you know I need to get my iron and B12 out of that dog's flesh Morals don't exist because you know, there's no morals in nature. This is just ludicrous We don't apply this in any other context except for our abuse of certain species of animals This gets to the point of species equality What does that mean exactly? Species of quality now people get confused and they say well you think Animals are on exactly equal to humans in every way and we should treat them exactly equal to humans in every way Drivers license, you know completely equal rights in every scenario I'm just asking for their right to life to live without being enslaved subjugated treated as property Okay treated as products. So so We would never treat Human beings the way we treat animals. We just wouldn't we've got rights protecting us. I'm about the world I do but we wouldn't morally justify it. We wouldn't say that that's okay. Well, that's good. Well, that's moral Okay, some parts of the world they do. Yeah, I mean we still murder each other. Don't we we don't accept it though We do horrific things to each other. Yeah, do you think that's okay? No, of course you don't so that doesn't justify us doing horrific things to animals Again, it's because of this the problem seems to be the boundary. We've drawn a boundary between humans and animals And you don't see that boundary. We discriminate Certain against certain species of animals based on their species alone and the way they look and we've said she Chickens cows pigs fish There are property. There are food. Do what we want to them. They don't they don't exist in the moral World at all. They're just outside of our, you know moral system dogs though. Oh my god If anyone did anything to a dog, you know, stream them up burn them alive These are people who eat pigs. Do you ever go to a dog post where some dogs been, you know treated cruel? Look at all the people who eat pigs This person should have the same thing happened to them what they're doing to that dog Oh my god kill them bash them, you know, you've ever had a dog But pigs, you know gas chamber then stab them to death have them on toasted bacon bacon make jokes about it. No problems. You see The problem there. I do see the problem and the world is a very The world would be a very confusing and upsetting place if you saw every animal's life equal To each other. That's right I would say what what difference does a pig have to a dog that you know, we sell chopped up pig bodies in the supermarket No one blinks an iron, but if that was a dog, you know, we would all be crying bloody murder But that doesn't change the value of that animal so you're saying animals only have the value we assign to them Not their own sentient value of them being in their own individual. This is a problem So you're saying we can devalue animals just by being there a pig there food chop them up kill them They're a dog there a pet look after them in a nurture them. What about the individual? That's all from our eyes That's not from their eyes. Look at it from the animals perspective for one second You tell me if it's morally justified you tell me if you would accept any of your justifications for killing them If you were that animal and that's what being an activist do We look at it from the eyes of the victim not from the eyes of human being Do you see the lives of all animals as being equal as? Completely equal in every sense. I think there's things that are different about us all But you know, I'm not going to say that you are the same as a mouse Okay, but I'm going to say that we have many similarities between animals and we should focus on what we have in common Which is we avoid pain and suffering we are having our own subjective sentient experience of reality Okay, we all desire well-being so focus on those similarities and say does that morally are we morally justified to? Rob them of their sentience to take away their well-being to increase their pain and suffering because I want a cheeseburger What about when it comes to? Lives of animals nice rodents insects get killed by pesticides insecticides combine harvesters Producing the foods that vegans they do and those lives just as important omnivores eat that same those same plant food So they're causing all of those accidental Justified deaths for our the plants that we need to survive and they're also causing causing all of this unjustified harm But the trillions of animals that are killed for the burgers and flesh that we don't need to survive What other choice do we have We need plants to survive and be healthy without plants we die So there are justified deaths and justified harm that happens for the good of civilization. I'm not against civilization existing I don't want us all out in the jungle not stepping on an ant But I also understand this unjustified things we do to animals for an unnecessary reason Like eating their body parts which cause us heart disease and the destruction of the earth You still think though the death of some animals is necessary for human survival 100% so is the death of humans We accept accidental deaths of human beings in civilization as well construction deaths Road accidents. Okay. I'm not against transport Okay, these are justified deaths for the good of civilization. So we accept it in the human context I don't have some out there, you know, you know You know apply some out there moral value to animals We're consistent with that humans die for civilization so animals and crop deaths and People use that as justification for walking up stabbing a pig chopping them up and eating their body and saying well It's a cop out. I mean we wouldn't say I like, you know, yeah I just murdered someone's dog, right? But it's morally justified because vegans eat bread and you know Animals die and accidental come by and harvest the deaths and insects are sprayed with pesticide to protect crops Well, I think people have this misconception that vegans think they cause no harm and that's the problem And I never said we don't cause any harm whatsoever. I've never said that in my advocacy. I'm aware of crop deaths I'm aware of justified harm for the good of civilization because we have it in the human context as well Okay, so I think it's all a misconception of what veganism is now unjustified places like slaughterhouses Breeding animals into the existence for the sole purpose of enslaving them Stabbing them to death and eating their bodies when we don't need to that's different to growing Plant foods that we need for our survival and our health and for civilization to function and for humanity You know, that's completely different Is the ability to be vegan The realm of a privileged view in first world countries With money and that's interesting That is a very interesting argument because the cheapest food per calorie on earth is a price Okay, now that is not a luxury. What is a luxury though is taking 50% of the world's grain That could otherwise be set fed to starving countries in these You know Africa where they're starving children. We're taking that grain We're feeding it to animals to fatten them up so we can have steak So the families that you would see in India that are using the cows out the back to feed the family Families that I've seen in Paraguay with the chicken poop out the back They don't have these options that you're talking about. Let's just talk about not having options For the most people who are watching this right now They do have options so you can point to some fire out there scenario I met this person in India who would have died if they didn't have their cow producing milk That's a different context to you. But aren't you after a vegan world? Is it possible? Hey, you know what? You know what? Once we deal with those who have options here Then we can deal with the two people in India who have no option and we can debate whether they do have an option or don't So it would start though in privileged first world countries We well, I would say that animal products are a privilege I would say that animal products are a privilege and what we're doing to the environment to get those animal products and the resources, you know That's greed. That's human greed one of the problems I see that you're facing is Personal choice people's freedom of choice. Yes Get that one a lot a personal choice ceases to be personal when you're robbing someone of their life Against their will where was the animals choice in this? So it's a choice. I'm not disputing. It's a choice But it's not a personal choice, you know me making me drinking some bourbon, you know getting drunk That might be a personal choice. It's bad for my health, but it's a personal choice I don't encroach on people's personal choice, but when there's a victim involved ceases to be personal It's a choice that has a victim so in society though where we have boundaries we have laws we have Criminal laws even that We need to operate within Taking the life or eating meat does not overstep those boundaries Yeah, maybe it's slavery human slavery back in the past human slavery in America the transatlantic slave trade That was legal the Holocaust was legal. What is legal doesn't equal what is a moral? Okay, and laws take time to catch up to the morality Do you think we'll see what was eventually the ban? I think we need laws protecting animals from murder just like we do for humans I think that we need that they need that they need rights to bodily integrity a Right to life and a right not to be enslaved and treated like nothing until we have that How do you get people to put down their personal choice their personal freedom to make that decision? Well, we educate people as to why it's not a personal choice We try to implement people and try to speak to their hearts and their compassion Okay, because most people are compassionate humans They don't want to see what happens to animals. They don't want to contribute to what happens to animals That's why we show them when we speak to their heart and we say we know you're a good person This is unjustifier. Look at those animals suffering. They're being murdered for your burger and we have alternatives We have beyond burgers. We have all these amazing plant-based alternatives now destroying the environment It's harming these beautiful creatures that are intelligent They want to live just like your dog at home does and we speak to their compassion and we hope they make the moral choice Feel strongly about this. Don't you driven by it drives me every single day consumes you Well, it's an injustice. It's an injustice and if that was me in those cages about to be murdered I want someone to speak to me as well Wouldn't it be better wouldn't it be certainly a hell of a lot easier for your battle To try and prove the welfare of animals try to eliminate food waste that we have Food waste, what do you mean a third of all food we produce is wasted fruits and veggies That's part of the big problem is supermarkets. I mean, there's other problems. There's other problems. I mean, there's many different other Look, but there's two things that This is my point. Okay. Yeah me These two things that people would agree with you with Instantaneously, which is better welfare for animals certainly Better welfare for animals and certainly when it comes to the industrial production of animals. Yeah You know that it's funny. I need to be the most people are waste most people are against factory farming But most people consume the product of factory farming, which is in my view complete hypocrisy but Define welfare Is nothing someone in the throat welfare? Would we accept that in the human context for welfare? That's not welfare Most people might accept that if they had a life that was free of torture I would not accept that that is not welfare. That is that is not viewing that is not in the animal's best interest Shooting them in the head in the head and slashing them across their throat is not in the animal's best interest That is not welfare No matter how nice you treat them beforehand You treat someone nicely before you rape them if you treat someone nicely before you murder them That doesn't justify the act of rape and it doesn't justify the act of murder So the welfare argument for you doesn't wash at all If we tell people hey, there's abuse happening in factory farms. There's murder happening in slaughterhouses where these high welfare animals go They all go to the same hellhole slaughterhouse torture chamber to be stabbed in the neck Okay Then we hope people make a different choice from that supermarket because they can't avoid murder and they can't avoid torture Whichever way you look at it With an argument like that wouldn't it be easier to try and change the consumption of meat to lower the consumption of meat of the meat Other than trying to get the very few You know what people are going to lower their meat consumption if we give them the right message to begin with Now if I tell people reduce reduce reduce, what is that so subjective what you eat 10 steaks a day Now you're going to eat three I'd rather tell people the truth that eating steak causes Abuse of animals causes the murder of animals It's causing the destruction of the earth and the number one killer of human beings. That's the truth Now if they reduce because I said the truth to them that's their choice But I'd rather give people the full truth. So those who are willing to make the full moral choice do The number one reason that people turn vegan correct me if I'm wrong is for health benefits Maybe that might be true, but I reckon the very close setting is is the welfare of animals. So Are you Yeah Do you have the right message? so the health Um arena, which I think is is very good for bringing people in because you know a lot of people they they operate You know for selfish reasons, which is understandable. I mean when you put someone when you put Our existence at stake people are more likely to act So the environment saying the environment is being destroyed because of animal agriculture, which is an undeniable fact You know gets people to wake up and go wow well, we're at stake now You know, it's our lives at stake now. So those same same with the health, you know the health argument that it brings people into the ethical argument when you take people off of the animal products They have mental clarity they feel better and then they start, you know getting involved with the vegan movement And they see there's a lot more to it than just health Health doesn't keep people vegan by the way Health doesn't even really turn people vegan because you can eat a plant-based diet for health You can still wear leather you can still use products that are tested on animals You can still go to surfaces you can have a dog breeding facility where you you know sell dogs and You know do immoral things to animals for either plant-based diet But a vegan lifestyle is what eliminates all this exploitation Would that be a more effective message though because whenever I hear billions Talking to omnivores meat eaters. It's generally about the welfare of animals What I don't hear a lot about is diet and health Which is from what I can see the number one reason that people turn vegan You cannot turn completely vegan for health, which is my point Okay, you can eat a plant-based diet for health whole foods plant-based diet, and there's a whole Other movement to do with health that you just aren't aware of. I mean there's a film called what the health I mean people go, oh they debate on whether the science is correct You can debate with the science, but there's a whole arena of plant-based doctors who are working this out Okay, so that's you know not I'm not an expert in the health arena There's plenty of people who are and that debate that constantly and that's coming into the movement as well I think each argument is very strong and they all work together If you google the vegan movement being an athlete in your name the first one that comes up really The first thing you're on the first page. Okay Is this a full-time job here? It was a very This was a passion for me. Okay, like I had this fire inside of my heart I had a very rough background Okay, you were involved in gangs drugs And I landed myself in prison for carrying a loaded firearm And when I was in prison I had this awakening and it was uh part of it was due to my sobriety So I've seen my life with new eyes. I've seen that My life was just the collection of all the mistakes I've made in my past And it had led me to this point and when I was released um I started to see things more clearly and I started to want to Give back I thought you know, I've been causing people to stress for all these years and you know I turned my life around and I had the vegan seed planted in my mind about health and you know I understood the hypocrisy and came into care about some animals and you know dogs and cats and safer wells But I had another piece of an animal on my plate And I was living with this hypocrisy in my heart and I thought I would align that And I went vegan but it wasn't enough for me because I was like how could this be happening on such a scale And everyone not be speaking up about it. So I had this fire inside of my chest and it drove me It drove me like and everything else has followed from that How long have you been vegan five years? What happened in prison specifically? It was my sobriety That woke me up when I was in prison. It was the longest I had been so before Since I was about 14 so Yeah, the sobriety helped me see things clearly and helped me align Coming sober doesn't generally turn people vegan. Is there What happened in prison to turn you vegan? Okay, so while I was on house arrest before my prison sentence, I put on a lot of weight So I got clinically obese. I was 115 kilograms depressed anxious You know, I was a mess And I was like, I've had enough of this. I want to find the best diet to lose weight So I was on the internet youtube scouring around and I found a raw foodist Okay, this raw foodist was juicing fruits and vegetables and he was talking about like, you know plants containing, you know Minerals and water and eat the like plants are life-giving And when you eat dead food like the piece of an animal Did suffered and died you're taking on everything that animal went through You know, they're suffering before they died their anxiety and you're eating dead food And this isn't good for the body. Um, it manifests as as disease and it planted a seed And okay, so I did this this fruits and vegetables and I lost a lot of weight dropped 25 kilograms It planted a very important seed because I was like, I never felt as amazing as I did drinking these fruit and vegetable juices and eating plants clarity and You know, this planted An important seed that flourished later on The message that you're giving at the moment the part that you're on if this is a full-time job Where does the funding come from for that? My funding is donation based Yeah, there's a charity. Yeah donation based everyone gets together. They might drop a father a week or a month and Everyone gets behind me because they feel like They want to stand behind my work Okay, so I used to work as a traffic controller three days a week and for me that was Sort of cutting my motivation in half because I'd have to worry about money and going to work and it would sort of dilute my motivation and I could only give about 60 percent for the animals And I made the steps to sort of ask for help from people. I say, hey, look if you if you believe in my work You know, would you get behind me? And this was a very big Thing for me to do because part of my ego wanted to you know, do it without any help I thought I could work a job and do this at the same time But when I started to get the funding and I could focus on this a hundred percent of the time I put all my focus into this. This is when things really started to change This is a personal question, but can I ask what kind of money you get donated to live on? What kind? How much? So, uh, how much in a year would you get? I don't divulge my income to You know the whole world I mean, I can ask you the same thing. How much do you make? Another name of the message today I get enough to get me by to get me traveling around To pay for equipment um Yeah, fine. If I ever need any more to do some type of big tour donors will get behind us. It's great. I don't have to worry about that um Sure, of course the later you are the more controversial you are the more donations you get I mean people could Say that, you know, I'm doing all this to get donations and where's your evidence for that? I mean, you know remind reader, you know, you don't know what I who I am You know, this this is something I've dedicated my life to and I did before I was getting donations Now I've been doing this since I was vegan. I've been outspoken about this just so it happens that now I'm getting supported for it for the last year. The more people you reach the louder you are The more reach you have the more donations you get the more animals gotta save the more people that go vegan and quicker the world changes donations aren't really my motivation You know, I don't have desires to have a beautiful house and a big car You know, I sleep on a single bed in a hotel and my mate makes couch or on a mate's bed You know, I travel around with this message and I dedicate my entire life to it Donations have helped me do that without them, you know, I would be working You know holding a sign on the side of the street not creating any social change It's a difficult life to It's got its ups and downs, but I It's nowhere near as difficult as it was for me in my past in the games and on drugs Let's talk a little bit about that. Do you have a long criminal history? Yeah. Yeah We're talking about the free assaults. Yeah Alperest. Yep. Six months in prison. Yeah A lot of drug use. Yeah, definitely Definitely and for me it all started when I was about 14 years old And I lost you really didn't understand society too much and You know, I wouldn't say the household was a stable environment for me And I found solitude in the drug use and I found people who I thought were like me, you know So similar sort of environment at their home. They might come from a low-income community And you know, we found camaraderie with each other And we started to knock around and you know get up to no good And what happens is it graduates into something, you know more toxic a little bit worse We will start to you know get older things get a little bit more serious and before you know it you're in prison You were arrested with a firearm two flick knives 29 bullets You were certainly looking at doing some harm to humans at some point I it was more defense It was more to protect myself because I was in such a dangerous environment and feeling myself on drugs I was very paranoid and I was concerned about my safety So if you're in a dangerous environment like that, it's either sink or swim And you've got to do what you've got to do to protect yourself It wasn't like I had intentions of going doing some unjustified harm to someone It was more, you know, I've got to do what I've got to do to protect myself I don't know what's happened to me. So to have these weapons was a security blanket for me Can people trust a man with a criminal history like that? Yeah, I mean, I don't want to live in a world where someone can't do wrong and then redeem themselves for it I mean, I'm genuine in my heart. I mean, I've got nothing to hide now My eye I was the one who divulged my criminal history to everyone, you know This has been a big part of my evolution. I mean trust me or not Is what I'm saying true Look into it, you know, don't take my words for this The information is out there for people to see. I'm just a messenger for now I had this conversation with Pierce Morgan and he liked to bring up my character on television And he's like, well, you know, you got caught with this blueknife. You got caught with this gun You know, that's not an argument to what I'm saying is the dairy industry inherently abusive You know the reason I bring it up is because You're the man behind the message. Yeah, people are going to understand your message and perhaps follow it They're going to want to know about you. Of course, but can they trust you? It's not just my message. There's a movement of millions of people who speak exactly the same message It's like nuances, the same fundamental core message. It's not my message. It's the message of the animals I still, you tell me if this is wrong or if it's right or it's wrong But I saw a disturbing quote that allegedly came from your mum saying that you were one of the scariest creatures on the planet I, to be honest, back then You wouldn't have recognized me. I was a different person and you know, that's what being in that type of environment does to you It starts to shape you. That's what I'm using alcohol and drugs does to you. It starts to shape you into someone that you're not but My true essence Was good, you know, it was just that I was clouded Now I was clouded by all this negativity You know, I was trying to survive in a very rough environment and I lost myself The part of my sobriety was finding myself again finding that compassionate heart that I have And now using that compassionate heart to defend animals and defend the innocent That is a huge change for a person to make It is a huge change and my family just couldn't believe it at the start And I don't think people trusted it or believed it at the start, but it's five years now and I ain't going back How is your relationship with your family, with your mother now? Amazing amazing mom so happy and proud My father before he passed away, he got to see the change and he died knowing that you know, I wasn't involved in that anymore When I pulled myself out of that lifestyle, I pulled myself completely out of that lifestyle I didn't associate with anyone. I didn't take any drug substances You know, I completely removed myself and completely changed and I haven't looked back Okay, and that's evident to see My mom's, you know, grateful every single day and I'm always there for her now and you know She gets a little bit worried, but in a different sense now like am I okay? Am I working too hard? At least I'm channeling, you know my passion that I have in A good way, you know not being self-destructive Were you this full-on beforehand? You're a very intense person Yeah, I've always been passionate. Um, I guess Now I'm directing it in a productive way. I feel like and and and something that I'm sort of channeling it to do good Is this I guess what I'm asking is this your personality to be so intense I guess it is I guess it is but when I talk about my life And animals It's a very heavy topic for me. So of course the passion's gonna come back come out I mean the situations where you get me want to have in a laugh and I'm you know a bit more laid back When I'm talking about injustice that happens to innocent animals It's on par with child abuse to me. It's a very serious topic for me. So I'm passionate about it How important is social media been to you? Social media is one of the most important parts of the vegan movement for getting this message out it's single-handedly been one of the most powerful Ways to get the truth out people I just want to read a couple of your posts. I'm just going to ask you about them. Yeah 2016 Yeah, another one Hitler is still alive and he lives in the hearts and mind of every animal abusing rapist slave only dairy farmer Yeah Australian dairy farmers should do the cows a favor kill yourselves And on ethical hunters deserve a bullet in the head. I hope one of these bastards accidentally shoot one of their family members Yeah, yeah, so those quotes we can unpack each of those if you like I'm happy to Because let's start as a whole Okay, so when I first started advocating for a shout of gangs and I was angry for what was happening to animals. Okay So angry. I was like How can we do this to them? I've seen so much abuse in what's happening in slaughterhouses and I was just speaking You know from a place of anger And aggression you still feel this way because this is extreme 100% Do not stand by those statements anymore now We can unpack each of those statements and why I said them But do I advocate like that now you can look at my stuff that I have online I've actually deleted anything that I feel like I don't stand behind now Because I know I understood it come from a place of anger back then, you know I was like, you know, how can we do this to animals? This is what the animals would say if they were the victim, you know, and misguided From a place of anger Now if you look at any of my videos now, don't advocate like that at all. I mean, I would still Say that animals are enslaved. They're about raped. I mean, I wouldn't take that away from the animals Their plight is their plight But you know, I don't direct it with aggression and insult anymore How people know that you don't still feel this way but you just wrap it in a different way now Because you'd have to take my advocacy as a whole. I mean what I put out there I mean, if I don't stand by things I said when I'm angry, I'm sure people have said angry things to people who kill dogs in china as well But you know, things are set out of anger. You know, people don't advocate for people to go and kill themselves. This is What can you tell me that if you seen someone lighting a dog on fire while they were fully conscious, you know causing them harm Well, I'm not about most people. No, I'm not. I'm taking the example of you know, someone abusing an innocent animal Most of society would be like, uh, yeah kill yourself Right now when I said that statement about dairy farmers So like that was an insensitive thing for me to say I didn't look at it from the dairy farmers perspective at all I was looking at it from the perspective of the dairy calves the innocent calves that were taken away and killed The mothers who were exploited sexually abused had their children taken away from them year after year and they were pouring their milk Down the drain They were pouring these dairy calves stolen killed murdered dairy calves milk down the drain And farmers were suicidal because their industry was collapsing I didn't have sympathy for the farmers at the time Now now I have a more of a rounded view on this understand farmers are indoctrinated Into this system Okay, and they don't see it from the animals perspective. They just see it as industry to them So I understand and sympathize with them more but The animals are the true victims here now that was a misguided and statement out of pure anger The message behind these statements is if you kill another animal you deserve to die yourself Do you still feel that way? If someone kills a human being do I think they deserve to die? And I think they need I think they need um But I'm using this exact analogy because when I when I look at the exact analogy, can you answer the question? If you if you kill an animal do you think do you deserve to die? I've killed animals before I don't think I deserve to die. I think I need to be educated. Okay. I think education is what's missing here You know Educate now I think people that kill animals are a product of a society that thinks killing animals Is normal natural and necessary and that's a problem. I don't think people should be killed for for Or deserve to die For causing harm to others or animals. I think they need to be educated Okay, and they need to be taught that animals Are sentient beings that deserve our respect and it's not necessary Because there's a different context surrounding someone who works in a slaughterhouse killing animals Okay, as a job that society says is okay, you know and someone you know killing Someone has pure pleasure just for the sake of torturing and killing someone You know once surrounded by industry there's different contexts surrounding it So I don't say oh but that person who works in a slaughterhouse deserves to die That wouldn't be looking me looking at this problem rationally Okay, so The attention that you get for this a lot of it is A lot of it is directed towards you in a negative way Do you enjoy the attention? Like the negativity can get to me a lot um, but Depends on what type of negativity If it's people going, you know, we've got to eat animals to survive lions eat animals You stupid vegan this and that like that doesn't really get to me as much um I guess When people question my integrity when my heart is so Devoted to this that can make me feel a little bit like, you know, you don't know me like you don't know what I think You don't know how much this means to me. You know, that can that can get to me a little bit constant bombardment I mean people attacking my character, you know That can get to me bringing up old statements. I've said doesn't really get to me that much because I don't stand by them anymore I understand where they come from I understood the psychology behind them, you know Because I see the psychology in other people When they see an animal being abused they get angry Get your hands off that child or that animal You know, you know, we'll beat your ass. That's that's the way people are. That's the way anger works Um learning to channel my anger in a productive way though, you know, that's not detrimental to me It's not it doesn't come across as you know aggressive. I think it's a bit of a learning experience I understand so much more about this issue now because I'm doing Story. Yeah, but Before looking at this, I would probably look at the vegan movement like a lot of Australians would yeah and as you said a lot of it is misinformation a lot of it is Information facts that they don't have but essentially You need people to look at this movement You need to get people to look behind the message behind the veneer. How do you get around? How do you how do you get around the problem of people looking at you and just thinking Here's just another whiny vegan trying to ram something down our throat I think with education based advocacy and logic, I mean What we are speaking about is A position most people hold anyway when it comes to certain animals It's just that they throw all of their morals out the window when it comes to a certain species of animals And it's just a complete contradiction. So how can expose that it's just logic really And showing that to people they have an emotional connection to their dog and the pig that was stabbed to death for their burger isn't much different You know, this is just pointing out an obvious truth I mean showing people a slaughter happened on. Hey, what do you think about that that makes you hungry? You know, what's the problem there? so There are going to be people that are opposed to this message, of course Now they're going to be people that defend meat eating vehemently, you know farmers that are you know completely protesting this But that's not going to stop this movement You know, this is going to happen whether or not people are liking it at the start Okay, because the truth is the truth. It cuts through everything Here's that upsetting that the majority of people are going to see you as just another whining vegan You know How people view me Versus how people view the message two different things So people can say what they want about me about my character about whether they like me or they don't Let's talk about my message here Look into it. Look into what I'm saying. See if it's false. Don't worry about me. I'm just a vessel for the message What would you say about a person? What would you think about a person who eats only meat in their diet only? No, no fruits. Nobody's no nuts Only I would be concerned about their health and I think that they have got some misinformation To think that they're full carnival. I mean, there's nothing about our anatomy that shows that we're a carnival We don't have cores. We don't have big sharp teeth We don't have the digestive tract of a lion to pass through meat quickly I think he's on getting a one-way ticket to bowel cancer um, he or she um, yeah, and I just I would wonder why they think that that's you know, healthy or needed If you had a chance to talk directly to us grow there, what would you say? I would say look inside of your heart when you think about these issues. Don't worry about the messenger Think about the message here Are you fundamentally against the abuse and unnecessary murder of animals? You know, do you love your dog that eat a piece of a pig's body inside your sandwich every day? Are you being morally consistent? Are you being honest with yourself? Face the truth. Watch movies like dominion. Tell me if you think that's okay Does this align with the good person that you are and then act on that? Joey, thank you very much. Appreciate your time mate. Thank you Okay, anything else you want to add? Go vegan?