 Welcome everybody back here on Seedle Talk at the Martini Seedle. I think this is in the Graduate Center CUNY in Manhattan, in New York City at Seedle University. And it's another day on the planet Earth, another week for us. I think it's week 17 where we talk to Seedle artists in New York City, in the US, but also globally all around the world who has over 100 artists have shared with us. How they experience that very unique and somehow still unbelievable moment. We are going through this catastrophe movie we all live inside where the outside world seems stranger than any fiction. And when we go outside, we also do feel like we are no longer no longer in the reality we used to know. And the question is, what will be? What will happen? We'll never go back. What has changed and what will change and what we do in our life will be very, very different. Somehow we are so far away from each other and somehow also closer through Zoom and talks like this. And it has a profound impact of course on the Seedle community. Seedles are closed mostly around the globe even so there are first openings in France, Germany and other countries. Portugal has been a wonderful interview last week. But it's plague people out of jobs, musicians, technicians, lighting designers, actors and we do not really know where all this will go. Over 45 million Americans filed for unemployment at a certain time and violence in cities is up. But also civil unrest which is a good thing that people voice their protest on the streets and the Black Lives Matter movement had a profound impact that we all do think and we all do know. And so it's just an incredible moment in history we are going through. America has higher and higher numbers still the highest in the world to 70-80 thousand infections a day. New York City is doing well down from 800 dead people in a day in April as in April 17th for five or six days. It was without one COVID loss of life which is remarkable and it is a great city we all live in and we will come back. The question just is how New York is such a unique place and such a great place. And one of the reasons is the variety, diversity of the cultural offerings, range of theater performance and the part of that community. Even so a little bit overlooked, very unfairly I think is the tap dance community. It's a fantastic art form I think like jazz. It's an American invention. It's an art form that collected influences from around the globe. Yet it's a uniquely American art form that went through many changers ups and downs and now I think is also enjoying the moment of resurgence. But also internationally perhaps even more people are doing tap dance outside the US and inside and it has become a serious art form. And with us today we have three significant members of that community. So I'm going to read a little bit from the bios, not too much you can see it out there. But with us is Asiya Gray. Asiya, thank you for joining us. And she's a soloist, choreographer and master teacher who has toured in the US and drawn since 1983 and co-founded the tapestry dance company in Austin, Texas. She was the artistic director of the Soul to Soul. A tap dance festival is not so easy for Germans to pronounce this. And she's a graduate of the American Academy of Traumatic Arts in New York City just close by to the graduate center. She received many, many awards for her great work. The Hoover Award, the American Tap Dance Foundation gave that out to her. And she was nominated for the Princess Grace Award in the early 90s. And she served as the director of the International Tap Association. And her work toured in the US, Canada, China. She's seen on documentaries a class act, a magic of only cold, apodize, thinking on their feet and so many, many more things on PBS. And she is truly a core member of what American Tap Dance is about. Deborah is also with us, Deborah Mitchell, and she now is for over 25 years the founder and artistic director of New Jersey's Tap Dance Ensemble. And she has a rich and extensive background in Korea with the art form of tap. And she was a prodigy of Leslie Gubba Gaines and St. Capacetics, if I say that right, and really award-winning professionals. And her credits includes the Cotton Club, the great movie theater, Broadway production Black and Blue, PBS great performances, and Tourist List, The Great Cap, Holloway, and many, many other things. Under her direction, NJ Tap Dance Ensemble has received people's choice awards, which is a big thing, an important thing that people like what you do, I think. And it has been a citation of excellence in the arts from the state she works in. So there are really congratulations. Thank you. And with us also is Tony Bach, who's the founder of the American Tap Dance Foundation. He's a non-profit in New York City since 2001. His mission to establishing and legitimizing Tap Dance is a vital presentation, education, and art form. And so he created the Tap Festival in New York City, the International Tap Dance, Hall of Fame, Tap Preservation, Buffa Awards, Gregory Hines, the Scholarship Fund, and so, so, so much more. And he has featured hundreds of concerts, film, and television productions. And he is opening at the moment, since 2010, the New York City American Tap Dance Center, where he educates and mentors and trains next generation of tap dancers. Tony and I met when we presented Brian Cybert's great, great book, it's Brian Zabert, who's now one of the dance critics at the New York Times, who has a great love and dedication and devotion to tap dance. Our book he worked as in 10, 12 years on was called, What the Eyes Hear, The History of Tap Dancing. And for three days, we screened from his private archive material, we collected it for the first time, and I did a couple of evening events with it. So, I apologize for talking so long, and it is all about listening, and today we would like to listen from you to hear how is the tap dance community doing, and I'll see, maybe we'll start with you. Where are you at the moment, and how are you? I'm listening. I'm listening. That's the biggest thing I'm doing right now. I am in a position also as an administrator and artistic director of Tapestry Dance Company, just really looking into surviving the next season. It's hard to go past that. It's actually in Austin, Texas, being one of the hotspots of COVID-19 right now in the south. Things change here weekly, daily. And writing grants, figuring out what to do with my professional dancers that come from around the world. One of them made it into Australia back home. Will he be able to come back? Pretty much Austin, the public, through a major survey, said they will not go and see performances inside a building. And Tapestry has actually been close since March 14th, because we will not teach inside a building during this crisis, which is very hard. There are dance studios, commercial studios that are doing such, but safety is number one priority for us. And I think, and many people, personally, I know that our future is going to include online offerings, which is such a wonderful asset that's been added to our plate. However, at this time as an artistic director, I'm not a filmmaker. So when I think about producing online, do I have a budget to bring somebody in that actually can help create a situation that is going to touch people's lives online? The big mission of Tapestry is weaving dance into life. And the professional company does concept performances that really do have messages of healing and making a difference in the world. And of course, many times we will also showcase our beautiful American art form of tap dance and pay homage to our great mentors and masters and share the oral history through our education programs, et cetera. But it really is about survival right now and finding a way to pull together the professional dancers, whether we're spread around the world. One of my dancers is waiting. He had a flight to Brazil that keeps getting canceled, because Brazil is as bad as the states are right now. Yeah, it's number two. Yeah, and just not knowing where he's going to be waiting for a dancer to come in either as a replacement or as an apprentice for Mexico. Well, Mexico is not the, you know, they're in hard shape. So it really is juggling this. And I don't want to lose the connection to the passion, to the love of what we do. I'm sorry, I'll probably. I've been a drummer and musician since I was seven years old. And I was raised in a musical family, found out later that my biological father was a drummer and leader of a swing band, but my stepfather was actually a musician. So fate has it that I am a musician. And tap dance found its way into my life late in my career after I was at the American Academy of Dramatic Arts in New York. And I came back to Austin for a vacation. And one thing led to another and I auditioned for a tap company back in the late 80s, which I thought, what's a tap company? And, you know, I had enough tap. You know, here's the thing that many of us are raised in theater. We have enough tap of those basic skills of the white Broadway scene of tap that I could get into a musical if I auditioned for a musical. And I worked as a tap dancer in a touring company called Austin on Tap for many years, a busy, a busy company. But I was chosen for a conservatory to work with honey coals in 1989. And when I met that man, and I met many of those great mentors and their protégés and students around them, it completely changed my life. And that's when tapestry was born. Actually, tapestry was born in Boulder, Colorado in a booth on Pearl Street with Deirdre Strand, who's the co-founder and Diane Walker on the other side brainstorming what's going on and just losing that, that face to face in the room. Being a musician connection is what I'm so missing right now. And I don't want to lose the opportunity to educate and to share history and learn more history. I considered myself a very educated, progressive, non-racist, which is not a term I use anymore person until many things have come back to me in the last few weeks that I have apologized for in my, you know, unconscious systemic racism that this country is based in. And I want to be, and I want tapestry to be a part of big change that needs to happen. And it is really, that is really affecting our tap community right now. And the love for each other and the love of rhythm and the love of our history, oral history, the stories, the black artists involved, the homage to our black mentors and masters, all the people that help weave all of this stuff together. It's a fabric. It's, I want, our community has never been perfect. No community is ever perfect. But I want the communication to stay open. I want healing to happen. I want people to listen to each other. And I want tap dance not to just be, you know, you had mentioned that it's a big resurgence of tap dance. Well, yes, it has been an amazing resurgence of tap dance through what's gone on in the last 30 years. But it's still on, it's not on the main stage in everybody's world around, you know, in America. If somebody says, you know, I'm a tap dancer, a lot of people will answer that by saying, oh, I used to do that when I was a kid. And they don't even realize how insulting that is. You know, it's just my God. And, you know, I remember early, early in my career when, when tapestry was first born, I had a born, I had a solo and it was a, it was called bio rhythms and I'm talking to myself. And I remember just the passion and one of the things I said, it's like, you're a tap dancer, pause, and you're white. So that has also been a part of my life and it, but it's my passion. And I don't want conflict to keep the passion of a community of rhythm and America of the roots. You know, I was a kid in Mississippi. I remember the signs, the white, the white drinking fountains, et cetera. I've been around that crap and to see that stuff returning now. And not obviously the white drinking fountains, but what I hold hope for and what's so wonderful to see is the diverse protests. There are so many of us that won't change not only in the world, but especially here everywhere and in America and change in how people see tap dance. You know, people need to know where it comes from. They need to know the history. We need to get it out of the, you know, we play so many of our platforms of tap dancer in and around tap dance festivals that are attended by tap dancers and their parents and friends. You know, there are shows that don't, but they're not the majority and it's education. It's educating these people about what this form is and what it's lived through, what it's struggled through, what it means and share that oral history that's not written down. It's still fights like Deborah. It's like Deborah talking to people about what did Bubba say to her in that room. What was happening? That's good. That's the stuff we need to hear. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Asya. And Deborah, so were you at the moment and tell us a bit how you feel and what's going on? Well, a lot of what AC just said, you know, was resonating. I went, yes, yes, yes, yes. Especially when I think about where tap what's happening right now in our world. When I think back, I was privileged enough to have a mentor Leslie Bubba gangs. And I know why she became emotional. I love the art form so much that I was seeking it out. Now I came from my hometown of St. Louis, Missouri. And as a black child growing up, my parents, my mother in particular, always knew how much I loved to dance. In fact, she was responsible for putting me into a dance school so I could tap dance because she said I was moving in her womb. So she knew that was the right thing to do for me. However, believe it or not, she took me out of that school because of racism. They kept little black girls like me in the back. And my mother could see from the time I was very young how talented I was. And she said, you're not going back. And we fought. I was no more than eight. But we fought about it. And she said, no, you're not going to be in the back. Before black was beautiful as far as society is concerned. So she took my tap shoes away from me and put them in a closet. But I would go in the closet when she wasn't looking and put the shoes on. She kept hearing this noise. But of course it was me in the closet. So she said to me when I'm sure a lot of young black children here, and she said, you're going to get an education. You can dance anytime. And this goes back to other kinds of thinking about black and people and dance. She said, you will always be able to dance. She says, that's in your blood, but you're going to get an education so that you can take care of yourself. I mentioned this because it's like full, it's full, a full cycle for me when I look at what's happening today, because now fast, going back a little bit is so many pieces of this. So finally, I did go to school. Okay. And I did what she wanted me to do because I knew that she was right. It would be necessary. She wanted to be sure that I was an independent young black woman, not having to get married or have to live with other people. She wanted to be sure that was there. However, once I finished my education and I was fortunate enough to even get a master's degree in social work, which I have used many times in this field. Not because set to because dancers need have many, many needs when it comes to understanding them. You know, they need to talk, you know, and it was in group work, which is even better because I'm around groups so much. But I went ahead and I did what she asked, but I knew that I wanted to dance and I didn't dance in college. I had to first get that done, but I wanted to dance. I knew that coming East would be the place for me as if I wanted to pursue that kind of career. Make a long story short. I was never a dancer. I was not a tap dancer who was Brit, obviously in a dance school because I was taken out of that when I was eight, nine years old. So it was still something they'll deepen my psyche that I wanted to do. And I found in New York and some people don't even probably don't remember. There was a Clark Center. Clark Center was where all the dancers, as long before Broadway dance and any of those. And I was supposed to go to a New Year's, I had a date, New Year's Eve, and the gentleman who was going to take me on this date said he would meet me. He would come and get me out of the, pick me up from the studio. Well, when he got to the studio, I wasn't ready to go. So he said, you know what, I don't think you really want to do this. But I think where you need to go is to the Brooklyn Academy of Music, where there are going to be some old hoofers there that you need to see. And I thought, oh my God, well, he wasn't insulted. He said, I just think you need to go and see them. And he was right. So I got in my little car and I didn't know where to help. Brooklyn was, but I, and there were no GPS, there's no cell phones, none of that. I just asked people on the street, direct me towards Brooklyn. So I did my car, I get over to the Academy. And of course, I think it was late level, I guess it was late in the evening, because I thought to myself, I didn't want to see a performance. I wanted to see tap dancing in its rawness. You know, we're getting ready for shows where we know we're dressed and people say, I wanted to see tap dancing. The young man told me these guys were the founders. He said, these are the men you need to see. And I thought, well, I don't need to see them in a show. I can't afford a show anyway. But if I could see them in a rehearsal, what that would mean to me? Oh, because that's what, you know, when we're rehearsing, that's when you see us at our truly to me at our best. And we're working it out with fixing and getting it together. So I decided, okay, it's tomorrow. So I decided I would just sit there in my car until the next morning when I could get into this. I didn't know how I was going to get in. But believe it or not, I slept in my car till the early morning light, as they say. The maintenance men, they call them garbage men there, because we've gotten very, very special, you know, they were coming to take out the garbage from Brooklyn Academy of Music and they left open a back door. When they left that door open, I sneaked in to the Academy. And in the darkness, I found my way through to the auditorium. When I got to the auditorium, I sat down with my tap shoes in my purse, and I waited. And I fell asleep. And I was awakened by voices. And of course, you know, it was like when a child is doing something that they're not supposed to, you know, you get scared when you hear things. So when I heard these voices, it startled me and I jumped up. So when I jumped up, the tap shoes fell out of my lap and hit the floor. And a tall distinguished gentleman came to the edge of the stage and said, who the hell is out there? And I jumped. I said, oh, just me. And he said, who is just me? So I got in the light because there was no light out there in the auditorium. It was all on the stage. And I, when I got further up, he says, little girl, what are you doing here? Get up here. So I picked up my tap shoes, put them in my purse and I went up on the stage and I told him, I said, I'm here because a friend of mine told me some old guys were going to be here getting ready for a concert. And I wanted to see them. He said, well, you're looking at the old guys. He says, so old guys, introduce yourselves to the little lady. I was in the presence of tap dance royalty. I call it today. This, this, it'll blow your mind. The tall gentleman was honey coles. He's the other gentleman came forth. He said, I'm Charles cook cookie. Buster Brown was there face Roberts. They're a Fayard Nicholas of the Nicholas Brothers. Then he said, oh, great. And then there was a gentleman by the name of Bubba games. And all he said was Leslie games, but Bubba was always rather quiet. He was not a real aggressive dancer in the sense of speaking a lot. So he, I said, I'm sorry, sir, I said, but I didn't get your name. He said, Leslie Bubba games but you can all my friends call me Bubba. He said, so just say Bubba. He said, but why are you here? He said, aren't you? Why should you should be in a dance school or someplace taking class? Well, I said, because I don't see or hear anything in the school that that I like. So he said, well, what is that you like? I said, well, it's not so much that I don't like it. I don't hear it. He said, well, what are you here? So I looked at him. He said, can you sing it? And I said, well, so he said, well, I'll tell you what. So he started to move his feet and tears came to my eyes. I said, that's what I hear. He said, okay, that's that rhythm that you're hearing inside of yourself. So I said, but that's it. He said, well, look, he said, I tell you what he said, and he told me later that he had two thoughts in his mind. He said, either this child is crazy or she's a genius book to come in here with tap shoes among this group of men who have been dancing all their lives. He said, he couldn't believe that I would go through such turmoil just to get there. So he said, I'm going where do you live? I said, I'm in Newark. He said, I'll come over to Newark and check out your feet. He said, in the meantime, you have carte blanche to come to the concert tomorrow, which was great feats of feet. Right. And that's when I met Dizzy Gillespie and all these people, but getting back to Bubba, this was what touched me so deeply. I have been working out in Newark and an abandoned community center. It was in the south ward of Newark, which is considered one of the most dangerous wards you could possibly be in where the riots had occurred and all these things were going on. But I love this place because they had a wood floor in the building. Only caveat was that you had to climb a fence to get into this building through the back. So when Bubba came over on the train with his dance bag, I said, I was embarrassed. I said, you know where I practice is the old abandoned building. He said, so I don't care. I've been around the world. Let's go see it. So we get there and I was worried because I knew he was up in age and I was worried about him getting over this fence. It was a tall wire fence that he had to scale to go in the back door of this building. You know, this sounds crazy. This is what my life has been like. When we would you believe when we got to the fence, he said, oh, okay, he threw his dance bag over the fence and he climbed it faster than I did. So we get on the inside and I hate to take up all your time on this, but this will tell you where my roots really come from. I know Aisha was talking about passion and loving something. We got inside of the building and he went up on the stage with me. No lights, just windows, nothing like a dance studio. I'm just in an old abandoned building and that floor was so magnificent you could hear every tap. So he says, okay, get up there and go ahead and dance. Well, I got on that stage. I think I did every exercise I knew, little time steps, little flaps. I was working myself to death and he's not looking at me. He's walking around, not looking at me at all. And finally he stops and he says to me, your right foot, no, your left foot is stronger than your right. And he said, you thought I wasn't paying any attention to you. He said, I was just listening to you. He said, I think you got something there, little girl. He said, but I'm going to give you something else. So he said, so he reached down in his bag and he pulled out a jump rope. And he said, you know what this is? I says a jump rope. He said, can you do a time step? I said, yeah, he said, can you do a time step and jump rope at the same time? I said, sure. So he said, okay, so he gives it to me. He walked away from me while I was doing the jump rope and time step and he came back his bubbles eyes were kind of a bluish gray. He came back and there were tears in his eyes. He said, I grew up in Georgia. I had two partners. We went all over the world and one of them was called hutch who did this jump rope. He said, but hutch had a problem. And when we were in Europe getting ready to go on, we found out that he had overdosed in the dressing room. He said, but that little he used to tell me that one day I would see him again. He said, and I used to laugh about it. He said, when I saw you jumping, I saw him again. He said, this is going to take you around the world. He said, and I'm going to give it to you. And from that day on, not only was it important to me to remember what this man had done was doing for me. He took me into New York's in New York City. We were in the studio three and four days of the week. And I mean hours and then he take me up to Harlem and go to all the bars and he fit me on a stool. He told me stories about his life and about the people he had been with all his life. He poured all this into me one afternoon. I told myself, we just can't keep doing this and I not pay you something. Because I knew there was a history of these men not getting there just do. And I said, I will not do that to you. I have to pay you something. He looked at me. He said, I don't want your money. But someday someone's going to look at you the way you looked at me about this art form. And when you give them back everything that I've given to you, you will have paid me in full. That was the that statement to me was really the genesis of why I founded New Jersey Tap Ensemble. I wanted to give away all this man had given to me. And it was so much. It wasn't just steps. He gave me his life. He it was his blood. He would he made sure he would talk to me. He was he said one day I'm not worried about your dancing because that's in your soul. But it's a business that can be a bitch. And I want you to know that you're going to have to be strong to survive it. And I learned all the things about he his his group was was blackballed in Europe for 10 years because they couldn't read the fine print in a contract. And he told me he said you're an educated young woman that's going to take you far. He said so you keep don't throw that away. You keep those things together. So when people say to me you know what did the minute what did he teach you they're thinking about steps. But he taught me about life and survival and all he even mentioned to me Bubba was very fair. He was like Lena Horne and some of some of our ancestors who are very fair you wouldn't know that they were black people just by looking at them. And when he was younger he was extremely fair. And he said we haven't had we had a gig one time and his two partners were brown like I am. And he said they wanted to hire us until they saw the two partners were brown. And he said that's when in Manhattan they said no we can we'll take you Bubba we won't take your two partners. He said it was because they were brown. He said I know it. He said I said you either take all three or you take none. He had conviction. He had all these. So he taught me things that today in our chat community in place when people start to talk about you know when I see people tap dancing. I many times want them I stop them I want them to know this is something that goes deep. People say to me I tell my students when you watch an artist doing this art form what draws you to one and doesn't draw you to another. I say is that deep passion is that thing inside is that internal metronome is something that you can't I can't give you I could never teach it. I knew that from Bubba because many times I would he was he was saying to me you got an internal metronome you're not going to get lost. I'm not worried about that all these things he embodied into me and when I started the company 26 years ago. That was my desire. You know I didn't know anything about grant writing or about finding money. I wanted to pass on something so precious that there was you couldn't put a price tag on it you couldn't. So I would say you know gee and and I couldn't find many black children to come into the company because you know why because at that time. Number one they were not in dance schools because before to be in dance schools so that when I set out an audition for the company. 90% of the people came to me were white because they were in dance schools and they heard about it where black children are children who are brown didn't hear about it because they didn't know but they had no access. Once again we're looking at what who's got access to something so I had to go in or go into communities to find children of color. You know to bring them out to say this and believe it or not. When I was in New York and went to an audition with my tap shoes. There were black children are black dancers who said to me why are you carrying around those shoes. And I said because I'm a tap dancer I love that we don't we're not doing that and they would do pirouettes in front of me to show me that they were doing. You know more ballet type dance and who and and furthermore it was almost I was putting them down you know people black dancers say to me we don't shuffle around here and I knew what that terminology meant to me. Because that was they were they were equating shuffling you know to to being less human or less of a dancer than all you know. Oh no you know oh no we're not doing it oh tap dancing oh it's almost a joke. And I can remember still going back going back to Newark with tears in my eyes and saying to myself one day they're going to teach them how to do it. And that exactly is what happened because they it was put down it was still seeing like stepping section it was still one of those art forms and it hasn't gone. And today when AC was talking about when you tell people you're a tap dancer not only do they tell you that they were one before they'll start doing it in front of you. All the time. Oh oh I can tap dance and they and they grin and they start shuffle up you know and it hurts to the core because it is such a fine tune art form. It's so difficult you really want to do it you've got to work it's not something you can jump up and do in the middle of no but that's what they will do they will start to spend and trying to get funding for tap dance company. It's almost like unheard of you know or oh you're a tap dancer oh that must be fun has nothing to do with the lineage the what it takes to do it. What it can do to bring people together. You know now today. And people say oh boy. Didn't people used to do tap dancing. These are the kinds of quotes people give to you or the conversation. Oh what ever happened to tap dancing whatever happens. Yeah I used to everybody everybody on my block it was always somebody who tapped is but it's it's not sit and you know people say to me. Oh if I say I'm a tap dancer or show me something. Oh yeah. And I'll say to them. Have you ever asked the ballerina to stand here and show you something. I said well then. Oh no that takes well that takes years I said well it takes years for tap dancers to so you won't see it unless you know but those are the kinds of preconceived notions people have about what we do. And so today with black lives matter and all that it's it's things coming home to roost. It really is because it's it's not what's what we're feeling it's in right now it's just been underneath it's been it's been it's it's something just bubbling up to the front and it's good. It's good even in the tap community. I know that you know that the thoughts. You know it's it's not as you were saying it's not the best. But you know what it has pulled back the curtain. It's made people talk. Yeah. It's made us you know what I was trying to say it's made us talk to one another and some of it is painful but that's okay because you don't get anywhere without some pain. That's right. You know so you know. I didn't mean to go that far but I had to let you know you know it's rare that we we as tap dancers get an opportunity to really talk about who we are and where we came from and why we love it and why we do what we do. And the New Jersey tap is not a big company as far as budget wise because we've never had a lot of money. We've been blessed with funders and people who love us but it's so hard to keep going and to end the education. I've had people say oh you got tap dancers and they'll invite us but they don't they're not care. They don't care about what we need our floor the floor they'll put us on concrete if they have to them. They could care less about they don't ask you what do you need you know they're not going to do that to a minor ballet company I know this but they will do it to a tap dance company. They'll say oh well you know either you bring your own floor or well can't you use this it's almost it's an insult you know and I said no we I have in the early stages of our company. I turned down jobs because they would not help provide us with what we needed. So they're just tap dancers just and there's been concerts where if you say well we can carry that well we better bring in another company with you a ballet or modern company because I'm not sure that a tap company yes we can carry a concert. But these are so we're still breaking a lot of there's a lot of barriers that we have you know have got to deal with. And I think this whole movement of saying you know we matter you know see it's got all those layers to it and and our art form falls right into it. You know so like I said it's a I understand what I see some like Asia get emotional I've cried through what I'm telling you today but that's OK because I can see but he goes everywhere with me and I tell his story as often as I can because it's worth knowing you know he will always be alive. You know when I go into a studio you know today you know I see I see some phenomenal tap dancers and I often say well I'll never be the best in the world but I tell you one thing you don't want to love it more than me. I will I will all he'll be I call the ghost of games because he's always around me you know and often I'll say I wonder what Bubba was was say about this happening today or what would he say about that that happening. Or if I see a dancer I'll say gee I wonder how Bob and but I was really blessed. I was in the presence of people who who dancing in their bare feet who did Bubba dance on street corners. You know and he had to take a job like a lot of the guys as some of them had to wash cars with all that gift they had. They couldn't get a job so they had to wash cars. Bubba had to say was one of those guys from the banks. You know how you put the money together on a Friday evening and he would take it to wherever it had to go and come back. He was always immaculate in his dressing. He was always so proud and to be someone helping to carry on that legacy with tap it means the world to me. No we are fighting. I'm fighting. Thank you for sharing. Yeah. Thank you Deborah. Thank you. Tony how is the situation that COVID out there which is you know for even established companies whether they are profit or nonprofit or better or not better nonprofit. How is that for the community? What do you hear? What do you do? This is directed at me. Yeah. Well first, wait a minute. I have to acknowledge these two women first of all because the reason I brought them into this Zoom is that we're contemporaries and these two ladies here are survivors of an art form really. I mean we've been talking for 25, 30 years because we have similar backgrounds and I do want to just say that I have the same background, the Cup ascetics. I met the Cup ascetics in 1976 in my hometown for Collins, Colorado. I met Baba and Cookie with Brenda Buffalino who was replacing I think Honey at the time. Because Honey then came through the same weekend or the same summer with Boblin Brown sugar. And I was crazy enough to call him up and say we're coming to the show. Can we meet you after the show? And he said let's have dinner. I mean the point is that these gentlemen and to not forget the generation of women at the time too. They were generous and they handed us and I'm going to now get emotional too. Because that's what we're missing online is the personal. It's great to be able to talk about this virtually. But in person, you know, Deb and I, we have a monthly lunch and we sit across from each other at a diner and we talk and complain and confetch about the art form and about the community. Community is great. The community is dysfunctional at times. I'm, you know, here in Manhattan in a high rise, reconsidering or revisiting, reflecting on my career on what I've done, what we've all done, what can we do moving forward. I think, yeah, three of us are major, major survivors and and we're going to, we're going to, everything's going to be alright. We are going to get back into the studio. It hasn't been that long. I mean, you know, considering what other people go through and, you know, it's not like the World War or anything, though that could happen too. Well, we're going to get back, we're going to get back and we're going to and and we're going to survive this but I think what what Debra said also is this has been an opportunity for me to reflect and I've been very, very lucky in that I've, I've documented everything. So I have, and I had just deposited our entire archives to the New York Public Library at Lincoln Center, the Jerome Robbins Division, Dance Division. And in doing that, I also kept copies of everything. So I am totally prepared and working on sharing that that information and that legacy that I worked hard for and that I believe in. And I want to share, like, like Debra said, that she wants these guys, the Copacetics, even the name is a positive message about this is a beautiful art form. It belongs to everybody. If you like it, Gregory Hines said the same thing. If you've got a pair of top shoes, you're in. Period the end. It doesn't matter who you are. You can be three years old. You can be an adult student that just does it for fun. You can be a professional. You can be anywhere in the world and become a tap dancer and do with it what you want to. You're not taking it away from anybody. You're if anything, you're just adding another layer to the amazing art form called tap dance that has been given to us. And now we want to share it and we are sharing it. And when I think about younger people today, I just, I just wish that they would do their research a little bit more like they would just understand where this stuff came from. And it's not like we're not out there telling them and everything is available online now. It's like, hello. You know, and so I think that the, I think we're out of crucial time. We're in a very interesting time. There are the haves and the have nots. There are the privileged and the non privileged. Absolutely. We always, that's society. But if we can make that better and if we can continue the conversation and thank you for having us to talk to this. Because here I get to even talk to my girlfriends here. It's really deep and it's fascinating. I mean that tap dance has, because it's so fascinating that it's used, used for so many things. It's healthy. It's, it's, it's also a way to communicate with people. I mean, I've seen it change so many lives. It changed my life. I like Asia and Deborah met the Composetics when I was straight out of high school and I decided to become a tap dancer because up on that stage, they were not only having fun, but they were projecting a positive attitude about, you know, let, let's move forward. Let's move up. Let's move out. Let's, let's, let's share this art form. And I think that it's a young, actually it's relatively young in a way. I mean, we're still like, like Deborah and Asia said, there's a lot of misconceptions about tap dance yet today. And that's because people just don't know. It's all about education. And, and so if we could just continue as a community to support each other, you know, this community has had its moments where all of a sudden society says, oh, that's tap dance. Oh no, no, now it's, now this is tap dance. No, what is tap dance? I mean, even, even today when we're talking about what is tap dance, are we talking about what tap dance is in this, or was in the 70s, or what it is now in Brazil or what it is in Estonia for crying out loud? I mean, we've got professional tap dancers in Barcelona and Berlin and Japan. I mean, these people and they love it just like us and imagine their struggle because now they're in Japan or Barcelona or whatever trying to raise money for an American art form. I mean, come on. So it's all relative and people have to just understand and slow down and listen. Thank you, Asia, because I've been doing a lot of listening to because there's a lot, there's a lot out there right now, a lot of discussion and, and that's a good, good, good thing. Yeah. You know, I think even our generation, we came from a probably, I don't know about your parents, but my parents were kind of, Yeah. You know, and it was kind of, it was kind of the theme of that generation to, to maybe not even talk about your own heritage because you're American now. You know, I mean, my, my grandparents immigrated here from Russia, they were Germans that lived in Russia, but when they came to the States, they, they were giving up all of that. They wanted to be American now. So you didn't hear much history. So, you know, now that we have an opportunity to reflect, I'm feeling good about it. I'm, I'm, I'm looking at stuff that I never even looked at after I filmed it. I didn't even look at it after I filmed it. And now I'm looking at it going, Oh my God, look who was in this production. Look what we did, look what we put together for one night, and maybe 400 people saw it. And the concert that I just did virtually last week, one concert, there's been a thousand people now that have seen that concert virtually. So they're, they're, they're definitely pros and cons and I'm all ears and I'm trying to teach myself how to maneuver through the virtual period, the COVID years. We'll be talking about this for a long time. Yeah. What is, what is this time of Corona? What does it force you to think about it? What, what, what, is there something that's changing? Is there something where you say we have to reconsider? Well, I think, I think that for the three of us, it is economic questions like how it's forcing us to, okay, how do we operate now if we have no income? And we only rely on funding that's already been cut because they don't have any, I mean, the city, the state, the feds, nobody has any money. I'm expecting a real chop, chop situation. Yeah. So it is survival mode. A lot of it is about surviving. But, but I think we're also service organizations. We're nonprofits. So our job is to inspire people also. Yeah. So how do we come up with the next program that's going to pull people in and, and how do we share this information? You know, Zoom is not a great platform for teaching. That's for sure because of the delay and everything, but it kind of does work in it. And it offers a different opportunity now where, where we're actually, I'm teaching now virtually and I'm talking to the students a lot more, not because I know I can't tap as much. But for some reason it's necessary in this, in this, the feeling, the vibe of the world right now is we need to communicate a little bit more. We need to make amends maybe or create new dialogue and new bridges with. Yeah. You know, you hit on something, you hit on something, Tony, when you said, you know, going back and looking at a video or a show that you hadn't seen since you filmed it. I mean, I'm, I'm in the, I do the same thing and Deborah, you probably do too. How often do you go back? We used to have cast parties back in the day where you watch the videotape. But, you know, tapestry through soul to soul festival because actually soul to soul has been around 28 years, 28 years, but it used to be called the Austin Tap Jam. But we started a faculty conservatory. I don't know, Tony, if you were involved in some of the earlier ones, but it was just the faculty getting together. Yeah, yeah. It used to be a week long. And it would be at the very early ones were focused around an artist. So there's like a week long conservatory around Fayard. And so it's Fayard in the room with everybody talking and then we were learning from him and the oral histories around all that stuff. I haven't gone back to look at that stuff. And I think, you know, in connecting to the people that were involved because, you know, obviously it would be something that that we would all agree need to be out there. Those things need to be seen that history. The fact that something so special and so many arenas only 400 people saw it or only whatever. And it's all of that. There's a lot of stuff we can share without spending money. And it helps educate. Well, and I think as long as you're not like, you know, raising money for it, I basically I'm putting things out there now. You know, if you want to donate, then we'll just consider a donation. Right. You want to give us $5 or whatever, but you don't have to. Exactly. That's the way to go. Well, you know, you're both of your right, because what I've been doing, I have, you know, in 94 when the company started, we have all these VHS tapes. I mean, I have not very, they were all on VHS, some really precious, precious information and performances. And people have never, some people have never seen them or they'll say, well, remember when we did this or did that, even for me, I've been one thing that is being sheltered in. I've had a chance to clean out just, you know, do almost like a purging of what's what's here. What do I remember? And I think that I've been sending things out now to be digitized so that we can take, you know, I have, like I said, they're dancers like even Jason Janis. Of course. I've got him when he's 16 years old, you know, and that kind of stuff needs to be seen. I mean, it's archival, but it shows the roots. You know, I've got, you know, dancers, Maurice Chestnut, when he was on Sally Jessie Raphael show it at 10 years old. But these are things that if I, you know, I could put them online and, and Tony gave me a great idea. He does this with Tony TV and people see, let people see, you know, because a lot of our people who see us today, think of us as today. They don't think that there was a history. Oh, right. You know, that we've come a long way, you know, and they need to see and, and the people who are their teachers now, they have a history with us. So they need to see that stuff that, you know, it's been, you know, it's in boxes and places and I'm bringing them out now. So I've got to get this out. Yeah. And Tony's helped me to think about, you know, archiving stuff is that huge job, huge, huge job. But one of the things, and I have to say, even with this program, our oral histories are so important. You know, when, when I got an invitation this year to do a oral history for the library performing arts in New York, of course, COVID came in and stopped that and we didn't get back to it yet we will, I'm sure next year, but I'm aware that that some things only you can tell, you know, if your story only you can tell it and the oral history so valuable for those kinds of things. Because I thought, oh gee, you know, and but because of that, I started to look at my past and look at and connect all these dots, you know, how I got from here to there and some days, it amazes me that that I did it. You know, I'm saying, oh, but you know, of course, part of it was youth. I was fearless. So I would just go and get whatever I needed today. I think more about it. You know, when you're younger, you don't always think it's not and thank God you don't because sometimes if you thought about it enough, you might not have done it. So, you know, but like you say, getting that stuff out. And because those elders talked to we were in the room with them. Right. They were different from just reading it in a book or seeing it on a YouTube. Right. You've been in the room with these people. That's so, you know, that those are your roots. So young people today haven't had that opportunity. They need to be in the room with more of us to know what it was, what it's all about so they can hear because in oral histories, you get things you don't get in any other place. So that's why it's so valuable. But listening. But ACS has something from the very beginning. I, too, am going through some days. I just I'm overwhelmed. I just have to listen for people are coming from what where the pain is coming from and how deep the pain is and how many layers, you know, what we're going through. And it's good that we're going through it because you don't get anywhere. You don't, you know, it's like anything. You got to go through painful times to get to the other side. But we can do this if you want to listen, you got to hear, you know, so they're, you know, I have had days when I'm just so overwhelmed by all this. I'll just do nothing. I just sit and think, you know, and reflect. But that's good, too, because sometimes we need to stop. Deborah, how is it? Tap dance ensemble at the moment. Well, how is it looking? Do you get support to let survive? How's your? Well, also in the movement, everybody says, yes. Right now, right now, you know, we have, we have support. Basically, our support has come in the past through funders, you know, like foundation support and that that kind of thing. And of course, we have a board and advise a board and advisors who listen to what we're going through. But primarily it's our fans, the people who love us who love to who love what we do. That's where the support is coming from. We do have, like I said, our funders and including our arts council and foundation support comes through for us. But they are, you know, it's, it's not a lot. We have to really, you know, we depend on, we depend on the public. That's really what we, what we're, what we're all about. You know, and we don't, we don't have a, what I call a calendar of events like some companies have a calendar of events. They're coming for because it goes back to promoting the art form into having shows of that nature. If we don't do it ourselves, you know, if we don't produce programs ourselves, very few people are going to come to us about it. Because like I said, once again, it's tap dancing. And unless you have someone who really promotes promoters who really appreciate what you do, you know, you're not going to have, we should have many more concert performances or just outlets to show, you know, we have some, some tremendous talent in this organization. But getting it out there is very, very difficult. Most of them are teaching, you know, teaching first, but even that, you know, that that's difficult these days because you either record your teaching or you do it on zoom. You know, it's not easy as you know, it's not easy. And we do have, you know, we apply for some of the like the payroll protection plan, you know, we have, you know, within our organization, everyone is supportive, but we've got to get, you know, we need a lot more, a lot more. So we I've learned though that that are that the general public, those people that know who we are and know our artists, they are very, very generous, you know, I mean, they give, you know, when you don't expect them to give. And that's why some of our programs, I know during this time we we've had to just to keep us out there. You know, we've done some of some programs like our masterclasses for very little fees because we also know that people, you know, are out of work. And the arts is, you know, unfortunately, the arts at this stage of the game is is on the shelf, because people are looking at food, shelter, clothing, they can't, you know, going to a concert or taking a dance class is not a high priority. And you can understand that because they're trying to survive. So a lot of what we have, we've given away almost because we want our fan base in particular to know that we are with you. You know, like Tony said, if you have a donation you wish to make, we appreciate that. But we're trying to ride it. It's truly, as my mom will say, hand to mouth, we're just trying to ride to ride this way because we don't we don't know, you know, it's very hard to see the future right now. It really is. Got to stay present. How is it in Austin? Are you supportive? We are supported by the city of Austin and as of maybe four weeks ago they announced that we're going to get a minimum of a 58% cut in city funding because it's based in hotel motel taxes. The council did decide to fund 100%. Our black artists and organizations, which I think was a wonderful move at the time because there's, there were people that thought it should be, you know, slow you've figured out it we were the whole city was going through an equity reevaluation. So in many ways that's a positive move for Austin, but Austin in general being was called the music capital of the world and it was living that reputation has lost probably hundreds of live music venues by now. And the theaters, not the biggest ones, you know, they may have their endowments. The smaller ones are struggling, trying to find creative ways to stay alive. You know, what's that the root mechanicals right there exactly root max right root mechanicals ground theater the vortex. There's so many there's very creative people here and we're talking to each other. We're going to try to host something very soon about just getting, you know, some ideas together collaboration is what we're talking about. But again, Austin public will not go inside and I do agree with you guys I, it's hard for me. My gut knows that we'll live through this my heart just hurts right now. But, you know, just like doing something, you know, the cars in the circle in the parking lot like like a drive in theater, then you start looking at who's going to let you do that on the property and liability things. There's so many things to think about. And, you know, back to what I said earlier about, you know, trying to do something online, it's getting into creativity process of a filmmaker. Not that we don't have connections to them but do we have a budget to support something above and beyond what we are doing. I am and we are planning on supporting our company that has shrunk from eight professional dancers to five for budgetary reasons over budget cuts that were taken a couple of years ago citywide. But it's it's it's hard to know where Austin's going to come out of this. We're a very liberal city very supportive of each other, but some of our beloved restaurants and iconic places are closing daily. So it's really hard to know and I know we're not the only city going through that and it's really hard to know what's going to happen. I wish we all, you know, I'll say a political statement, but I wish we all would have had a Cuomo in our in our court, you know, and trying to manage the COVID-19 crisis months ago. Because, you know, some of the states we're in did not do the same thing and it's just it's not like we've been we've been blessed as well. We're one of seven organizations here in Austin that was blessed with an any a cares grant. And I feel so blessed that that happened. And there were so many deserving all everybody that applied I wish could have have gotten that but it, you know, I look budget wise it doesn't make up for the 58% cut that's going to happen with the city so it's like even trying to get back to a minimum without earned income. Sorry for interrupting but I know, similar to me you you have a space that you have to. Yes. Yes. Payments on an empty space. So, so yeah so you have to like re re jig all of that to like what do you do with that space I know Deborah you rent space. Yeah, and that we're not doing that right now only because of naturally of the risks that are involved. And I have to say too, we have survived with some out of this world in kind support, you know, just love the company. I don't know where we would be without some of the people that I mean they're and they're not just, you know, throwing at you making do these are professional people, you know, who know what they're doing. Who have been willing because they know, you know that the company the heart of the company they know that we're real that we're not that we're trying to do trying to serve the community. So, you know, things that they do. I mean, everything from costumes costumes to, you know, to marketing, you know, we don't have a big budget we're just not in that in that, you know, doing that but even the funders, you know, at least. With the Arts Council they will send me send us emails about opportunities in the field, you know, so that at least everyone knows everyone is going through a very difficult time so it's not like they've forgotten about you, but but the the money is just the need is so great need is so great and like I said and I really do understand you know that people are trying to survive like even with the classes I worry about the fact that everybody doesn't have a computer, you know, I mean, we're talking about Internet. You're right. It's disproportionate. I mean, there's some people. Yeah, people who you know, one of the things that I've done, believe it or not is I get on the phone and call people and old fashioned things just say how you're doing. We haven't forgotten about you because everybody's not connected, you know, it's, you know, and, you know, people will have a zoom class. Well, first of all, it's difficult to do a zoom class. I don't care what anyone says with tap dancing because you got audio problems, kind of things that interfere, you know, and scheduling. So you know, every child, if there's one computer in the house, maybe mom or dad is working from home, they can't be on there to do a tap class, you know, or so you've got, you got to take into consideration all of everything that's at the domino effect. What's affecting this person. I call people up, you know, say, and I tell my artists, don't disconnect because this is a time when you can become very, very depressed and not knowing. I mean, in a lot of a lot of our youth company, they're these are kids who are in school or would like to be in school. They're at home now that they're not sure what's going to happen. So we have to stay in touch with them. But the bottom line is that I tell them, don't disconnect, call one another. Let let people know how you even are feeling, you know, because and you can't get that through an email. No, you know, you got to physically, you know, missing is the human touch. And when they hear your voice and you just say, I'm just calling to say I'm thinking about that goes a long way. Yeah, those are and I tell you something else I've discovered lately is looking at how else we're connected. One of one of my dancers likes had just started to do some planting up is doing some repotting. Well, I have, I love plants and I have a room here in the house that's like Botanical Gardens. So when I found out how much he loved planting, I took a little video with my phone and showed him all my plants and the names up and everything. So we can connect on other we have other things in common. Sometimes, you know, you if you say, you know, let's try let's talk about this. It gets you out of a funk where you're trying to do just this, including cooking. A lot of us are cooking now more than we've ever cooked before. We've been sharing recipes and you know, but it's the human element that we that's the only thing it will bring us out of. Yeah, you know, this, this tendency to become depressed and saddened, you know, about what's going on. But, but we it's, we have to face it there days, you know, when it's, I'm not sure. Oh, there are days when we just want to quit. Yeah. Let's just be real. We just want to quit. No, that's true, Tony. Just say, Oh, forget it. You know, it's too hard to see again. It is their days. That's what we have. And our little lunch is we talked about that. How are you surviving? How are you, you know, but it's so good to have an opportunity to share. You know, what a privilege. I feel it always is to tell some for someone to even want to know how you're doing. Right. People don't even care. Right. You know, for this, you know, to have this opportunity when Tony called me just, I said, Oh, I would love to share. Yeah. Because you, we need, we need to be connected. Otherwise, you know, you go downhill fast. Yeah. It's really true. It's really, really hard time for everybody, but especially for the one who are not in the center of the disenfranchised already over centuries over a long time. We had Karina Spitz, who's a Latinx writer and translator, and she said our theaters are going to close. They are small ones anyway. They're barely enjoying it. She thinks it's going to be an extinction of what keeps a variety diversity. What makes America America, the languages you hear on the street, the songs and the movements. It shouldn't happen. It should be at the center. And it's a, Well, you know, people say not to cut you off, but people take the arts, I think sometimes for granted. Because, you know, when you have to stay home, then all of a sudden, you know, if you think about your life, you know, love enriches you. What enriches your life? Well, maybe it's a good book that you've read. It's a movie. It's a concert. It's something, you know, that, and we just take it for granted, you know, that, oh, you know, I'll just go to, I'll go to the movies this weekend. When all of that gets shut down completely, you know, all of a sudden people realize and you hear people talk about sports a lot. You know, how important sports are. You know, artists, you know, when Broadway is shut down, you talk about who gets affected. Well, you've got the ushers. You've got restaurants who are nearby that are only maybe there because they're in, say, a certain area in New York. You've got concessions. You've got souvenirs. You've got their people working there. When that's shut down, it's like with sports. They talk about, oh, the parking. Where are you going to park for the game? You know, and selling things. Well, the arts have the same kinds of problems and no one is thinking about it because they think, oh, gee, it's fun. You know, they're artists. They're dancers. They're singers. This is, it's a career. It's something that, you know, we have to survive too. The arts have a significant impact economically. Yes. But even beyond that, you know, art is a reward for a great society or for a city that works. And you enjoy it. Good sports. I like sports. Yeah. But theater and the arts, you see things from different sides. You see what the opposite, the contradictions we all live in, that there's truths. You know, there's Michael Frayn. A great playwright said, a great play is when every character is right, what he or she says. You know, and the same is, and if you look at TAP, if you look at George Nirenberg's great documentaries on TAPs. Yes. No maps on my TAP. No maps on my TAPs. If you want to know what a great art from that is, you know, the subtlety, the beauty, also the way of, you know, using your feet. That's the only thing you had when you went from house to house. And the movement that then was stolen in a way by Hollywood. And then they left it in a way and slowly came back, perhaps a bit with Jackson and his White Sox, Michael Jackson. But the subtlety of it, and you know, if you see, I forget the artist. I once saw a video of me was dancing on steel and sand, TAP dancer. You know, it was, you know, it was like a Beckett play. You know, it was like the highest form of an artistic, I felt, you know, uttering or rendering or a comment on existence of life. And TAP is such a brilliant and beautiful form. And also the contemporary new one is a hybrid has connected, has found hybrid forms that are no longer the traditional ones. So the ones we kind of have in our minds, what people do in America, companies from Argentina and Japan and Americans. And what they come up with is stunning and has to be and should be supported. And it is, it is not. So what do you, what is your, what is your outlook? Do you think that it will throw you back a decade? Or do you think perhaps people will see, no, TAP is something that's alive. If we can do it, we can study because it will come out stronger. I think it's going to be self preservation of the artists that are in it right now, the artists and the teachers, and those that are connected to our past that are going to keep it alive. It will not come outside of our own community. I don't believe, I don't think the average American or the average person's going to go, Oh, now I'm interested in TAP dance. It's got to be, it's got to come from our family and then directed to communicate outside that circle. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely, we have to do the work. Yeah, we have to do the work. Exactly. It's not going to. Because like I said, we're 26 years old and when I started, you know, I was fighting to give it respect. And I wanted to do it. And I'm exactly, and I'm still fighting to give it respect. And it's in its place, you know, I mean, you know, it gets lumped into folk dance and things. Right. It's other and other it'll be, you know, on some grants on some forms, there'll be ballet, there'll be modern. Ethnic. Ethnic and other are fun. You know, where is TAP? I mean, you know, why doesn't it, it's a category. Why it needs to pull out of that, you know, and I don't think it's just because I love it. I think I know I'm right. You know, you are right. You are right. Yeah, I didn't mean to interrupt you. All right. And I think that so much of our grant processes and applications all tie back to academia. And academia has always been set in a Eurocentric mentality. And I'll guarantee you unless that system changes, it's going to stay the same. And there will be people that will try to preserve the ballet world. Oh, yes. There will be. But until that system and that that system changes in the educational system changes in colleges and universities as to what is represented in and not only TAP dance, but jazz dance and dance beyond ballet and what used to be called modern. I mean, there are colleges that still teach what is what's called modern. Now it's contemporary, which is everything that's not. Yeah. The kitchen thing, but you know, there's people that don't realize that that hip hop culture and jazz culture and TAP culture and all of that is the same. It's the same roots. It's exactly the same tree. And until, until that changes, then the grant program and the applications won't change. But back to the original question, the change will happen inside our community. It will not be something unless something radical changes in government. It's not going to come from outside of us. No, absolutely not. And it's going to be a long haul like it has been. It's in the same way that black lives matters. We're going to have to do a lot of work. Yeah. We probably won't even see the benefits in our generation. It will be for the future and that's okay. But that's one of the reasons why it's so hard to wrap your brain around some of this and put in the energy. And I mean, it's, it's hopeful and knowing that, you know, before John Lewis passed and I can't believe in the passing happening. Yes. On Friday, but you know, he had mentioned, and people have talked about that what's going on has gone on now is bigger than what happened in the sixties. So it's getting, there's more, the diversity is bigger. The groups are bigger. There's more stuff and people are, I won't say angrier because how could you not obviously in the sixties, there was horrible stuff that would just as much anger, but the numbers are bigger. Is it a coincidence? We were in COVID-19. So thousand, if not millions of people could gather in protest, a protest of inequality and black lives matter. That wouldn't have happened if everybody, that would not have happened. So everything, I'm a big believer in rhythm and energy and love and negative energy begets negative energy and positive, you know, it comes back to you. And this is the big karmic event. There's just a lot of darkness. I don't mean to get all spiritual. But it's like you said, you're correct. The B.C. one thing about COVID-19 with the, with the protests and all that people were not, were not working. Right. So they could get out in March. Okay. They could, you know, which is a difference from, you know, the normal kind of protest that, you know, okay, some people over here got together, you know, but this was, this was, it's a global pan, it's a pandemic. Exactly. Everybody's looking at the same thing. Right. So you can't. Great. And it was wonderful. You can't hide, you know, and we can't stop. And it just, and it can't stop, but I do because it's bigger, because more people are involved, hopefully, you know, change is going to happen in November for the, for the U.S. government that, you know, action will be taken. There were big actions taken in 63 and 65 and 68. It can happen in our lifetime as far as, as far as law changes, as far as, you know, you know, many things that need to be adjusted because it's, we're, we're, it's the laws and the way that they're, you know, can get around law and help people. I mean, there's so many things. Yeah, we, we, we're, we're learning so much more. I mean, you know, if you go back to the seventies, you didn't find out how things played out or what was going on for 20 years. Exactly. All of a sudden you, then you heard about the Vietnam war and, and what was all the politics that played into that and all the presidents that decided for whatever reason to continue that war or not. But now, you know, everything is, I mean, we're finding out about things before they happen. I mean, we're, Exactly. Or we're, or we're hearing all kinds of opinions about everything. Right. Like daily in the, in the minute and, and some of it's right and some of it's wrong and some of it's important. Some of it's, you know, like bullshit. Right. So it's confusing, but at least I think we have the capacity and there's, there's the possibility of, of moving a little bit quicker now. Yeah. Yeah. But this communication is quicker. I mean, it makes logical sense. You know, the leadership. Yes. Yeah. No, it's a, it's, I think it is a big moment of change. And I really, really hope that also tap dance will be part of it. And that it will be catch some of the wind of the change. Like Jess had also a hard time. I think it was just at Lincoln center that fundamentally also changed and then the relation and to it. And I, I do hope that there's something like this and also will happen becoming towards the end of the session. Is there something for me as a short statement? What do you say to a young artist, a young tap artist? If they say, should I take a class? Should I not take a class? Or how should I, well, how should I use this time now? If all of you could get the short advice from your experience, what, what should people do? Well, I really want them to, if it's a young tap artist, I want them to look at his history. I want them to dig deep. I really do. And they have time to do it now so that they know, you know, it didn't start yesterday. It didn't start 10 years ago that to look at the history become knowledgeable because that's where your power is, you know, to understand, understand the art form. And, you know, and not just look at it as, oh, isn't that fun to do? Yes, it is. And it is wonderful. It makes you feel fantastic. But know your history. I had to do that myself. And, you know, as an adult, I had to go back because so much of the history is not in the books. And it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't made available to me. I had to do my own search. So that's what any, I would tell any young artists know where I'm never against going forward. I mean, all of us, you know, the world has changed and we need new minds and new. It's like trying to find this vaccine. Somebody's going to come up with that. We have to keep looking, but you've got to know where you came from to go forward so that you don't make some of those, you know, so you appreciate it. You know, and like people ask me all the time, they say, what do you think about these young, I think they're wonderful because without young people wanting to do this, it's going to die on a vine anyway. So you've got to make sure that not only do you let them know you appreciate and accept them, but make them understand where it came from. Yeah. And that gives them more power as they go forward. Yeah. Just know your history. Yeah. It is know your history. And I'm always, you know, our steps are history. And you can find that out in doing your education, but to learn steps, especially from a screen by rote, copying a teacher is not what tap dance is about. No. I mean, it can be about teaching a tool. Just like tap dance is a tap dance is a language and you can learn a language that's a direct, you know, is a direct link to your mentor, your teachers, collection of teachers, share what you know, share the oral history to pick up those things. But the history is what's going to make just like the English language. You can, you can memorize. I've said this before. You can memorize a dictionary. But if you don't know your history and you don't have anything to say, what is it worth? The steps aren't worth anything unless you know what you're doing with what you want to say, what's your representing in history or what you're trying to communicate. And I would only, I would only add to that that do the work and the artistic work. If you really want to dance, then go into a studio and dance. You don't need somebody else to tell you what to do. I mean, yeah, do your history and get inspired, but go in there and figure something out for yourself. Take care of yourself. Make it up. Some of our best tap dancers didn't go to school. They have their own style that they created in their back, you know, the back porch or in the studio on their own because they just wanted to make music. So Tony, it's like, Tony, I hate to cut you off. Like I said, I never had a mirror. I didn't, you know, I wouldn't, I didn't, like today, you know, some kids, all they can dance is in front of a mirror. But, you know, if you learn how to dance, like I did almost in a dark room, you know, by myself, that's why audience doesn't, doesn't scare me because I can look, I'm looking out. I'm not looking at me. Right. So forget the syllabus. The mirror. Yeah. Like copying of the steps. Yeah, yeah. Just go in and dance. Feel the rhythm. Enjoy it. That's right. Enjoy it. You're all right. Feel your body. Feel the rhythm in your body. Great. Great. Great. Likewise. Know your history. Be present and do find your own steps. Yeah. Find your own skills. Don't make karaoke. Do your own stuff. And that's so important. I think that was a great update and really thank you for, for sharing. You know, this is a significant art form. And I know, I think the great David got out at the Riverside Studios at the time, he was also one who said, these are great artists. They should come to Europe. He got them and then Jürgenberg got them on the film and now you are the next generation and then, and you're educating the next one. So this is a important work, what you do. And, and, and yes, this is your experience of this. Time when I'm so sorry. You know, it's so tough and it's so hard and that is really endangering in an existential way, not only lives that we are, but also your institutions and your work. So don't quit. Stay, stay with it. On the Seattle Center talk, you will go around the world and we will have a tomorrow at Carl Hancock Racks, a fantastic and brilliant mind and New York theater artist, writer, producer, poet. And he is a great mind and he will share what's on, what he's thinking about. We will have on Wednesday from another great theaters in France, Philippe Kiné. I hope I said right from the theater is Armandier out in Non Terre is one of the big theaters and we hear from him what he is planning, how he's reacting there. Petit Chamier will talk to us from San Francisco. She's from the Arab-American theater community. And we're going to hear from her also how that feels like. She's based in New York and in San Francisco and goes back and forth. And then the Adelheid Rosen from the Netherlands and Amsterdam, a great theater maker and artist, community organizer and socially engaged artists. We'll talk with Melanie Joseph here from the great hungry theater about what is it what we need to do in theater? How can we react? How can we do meaningful work that perhaps gets also the audience awards, the ones Deborah, you got and that is important. And I really, if any funders are out there, you support TAP, I think it's a significant form. It needs also room to breathe, to experiment, to be supported and something great, you know, might come out and what you have now is your body, you have a space. So perhaps if you're interested in TAP yourself, this is a moment you can do it. If you're all in your own rooms and you're for a year long, there's something you all can discover. Thanks for howl around, for hosting us. Tony, thanks for calling your colleagues for us and bringing both of them in. This is a great contribution and thanks to the Seedle team. Thank you Frank for having us and being concerned and good seeing you ladies. Thank you all. Bye bye. Thank you. Audience, stay safe, wear a mask and stay tuned. Bye. I love it. That was great. That was great. That was wonderful. We have to continue. I know this is cool. And they're recording. They're still recording. Deborah, I miss you. Listen, I'm telling you, it's so good. It's the upside. At least I see your face. I know. I'm always amazed at how emotional this makes me. You know how you think you're on top of something and you can express yourself. But it's like yesterday. It brings back so many memories. And I can still see him and hear his little jokes. He's always joking about it. Taking me to show. The thing is that we're confronted at the moment with all these questions. And we tend to like turn to and try to figure out or we must validate our situations. That's the big one right there. That's the big question. That's fine. That's fine. But we know what we're doing. It's a long time. I'm sorry, nobody's going to take this away from me. Absolutely. Beautiful work, Tony. We all have. It has been a community. It has been a community. Yeah. You wouldn't be this far. When you think back when people, even when they branch off, where did they start? They came to the festivals. You brought them in. Whether you get credit for that or not, it doesn't matter. People are bad seeds and good seeds. It doesn't matter. And sometimes that's probably a good thing. Yeah. Sometimes you've got to go. How wonderful certain people are. Thank you very much. You too. Okay. So the next time you guys go to lunch. Yeah. We'll zoom you in. You need to FaceTime me or something. I have to do that. We love our lunches. I don't know what I would do with the album because many times I'm just, you know, you get overwhelmed and fed up, you know, and then you sit down and when you start to talk, you say, yeah, I'm doing that too. You know, this, you know, it validates what we're trying to do. It does. I mean, Tony and I. Yeah. You got to listen to each other. Yes. When Tony and I talked last week or whenever a couple of times, it's like it is, it's like you can breathe. You can just let go. Yeah. Feel like you're in a safe place to bitch. And that's right. Know each other's experiences and then you can grow and share and communicate. Exactly. You know, and you know, you know, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm afraid I do have to end the live stream. Listen to that part. The really good stuff. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Be well. Love you guys. Okay.