 Hey everyone, how's Zurich this fine afternoon? It looks nice from the window. I haven't been out actually been cranking away on things. I talked to Hank briefly just a short while ago, and I'm still finishing Editing a radio show that I have to send over to the radio station. So I'm slightly distracted checking in but Yeah, get into it But you see you on the police group as well. Yeah, that was it. It was interesting I Just in reflecting a little bit. I was kind of surprised that there isn't a quick way to understand what polices that there's no like Hey, here's 30 minutes. You can invest and you'll be like where you subbing Peter and Hank polis pol dot is is a citizen platform That it was was created by a group called v. Taiwan in Actually in Seattle, I think actually polis is from Seattle, right? I don't think it was actually created by v. Taiwan Yeah, it might be the first or most notable use case partner organization It's called Colin McGill and I think it's the main founder and then I forgot exactly who else now Liz Barry who's come in more recently who we're working with I'm with through Tom at least circle And she's and basically the the way she put it actually a couple of things were interesting We can come back to about last night, but So she's heading up the nonprofit, which is the new company of polis it sort of failed as a for-profit as she put it and It's another going in this nonprofit direction, which I'm just hearing about Hey learn and What else yeah, I think that's the main thing so it's kind of between and Colin actually wasn't there yesterday Although he was on the previous week, so he's sort of in the mix on hand They're doing a bunch of things on the ground in Minneapolis for example. It's taking a lot of energy But I think they want they definitely want our feedback and need it and there's sort of particular ways I think that they're hoping to do it Yeah, and it's just to catch everybody up We're talking about a call that I joined yesterday That's been going a couple times before that hosted by a guy named Tom at Lee who is a world-class genius in Democratic participation About a platform called polispl.is Which is being used in Taiwan for a project called vTaiwan and gov0g0v.org. I think and They're basically it's a high functioning Democratic participation platform where people can inform decisions better and it's clearly a kind of a community that we would love to To bring into the conversations here So trying to figure some of that out and I was trying to figure out is this a platform We should be using in some way for some of the work we're doing how does it fit? But the conversation Had had a big piece of half the people didn't really know what the platform was or it was like The three blind men in the elephant, but nobody had touched the elephant really yet Yeah, it's kind of like that. I think there was a kind of Subgroup on the email thread that where it was highlighted that actually we're so far a community of interest And we can't be a community to practice because we don't know what to do with the thing a couple of them of us do As we Andy Pace the notable Person in London who's been working with it in the community is there with them with the mayor in this area for example And I think Tom has a lot of insight but more just from looking into it and not really using it so much And so the tutorial is in the mix I think that's coming and that was another takeaway from from yesterday And I'll do a tiny and I'm like really interested in their beings a simple tutorial for this thing I'll just do a little brain-sharing one of the key people in this project. The project is kind of v. Taiwan. I mentioned There we go. So here's v. Taiwan and here's the gov project that started in 2014 and They're in and Audrey there we go So here's gov tech power tools for discourse came out of the student the sunflower student movement back when so Don't remember if you remember the protests that were happening called the sunflower movement But they're sort of showed up this thing called v. Taiwan that then was using the platform polis. So here's that and Audrey is In the middle of this and she joined me along with a colleague named Shu Yang Lin For this call here. I'll put them up with the link in our chat back in 2017 She joined me for this really interesting call about what they were up to and I was like, oh, this is very cool And I was around at the same time that Tom Adley was talking a lot with Audrey They had I think nine hours or more of conversations Probably more actually a lot of exchanges and I was copied in some of those and he wrote a kind of epic series of blog posts Like five parts on v. Taiwan and everything kind of going deep Yeah, really interesting. So there we go. My brain just came back Log posts Charles Yeah, I can find those sure. Thank you Hey, Jerry real quick. I just noticed that the the invite that it looks like you sent out Contains the old link without a password. Oh I picked up to Okay, so that's a problem Can we send a repeat to the list? Yeah, so the one that we're in you just copy to me, right? Yep. Okay Let me do that then And Kenneth is sending a note saying can't get the meeting password. So let me just post it to the real to the list Yeah, I think that's right So Okay, just sent a note to the list that would explain why I can't get in Etc. Okay, so I have a couple emails here from people who are not able to get in. That's good That explains what's going on Shoot Thank you for catching that I was confused about what was happening. All right And why don't we go around and check in a little bit Just to catch up where we are Good Edward Awesome. Thank you. Sorry for the misleading link There we go Okay, Kenneth should join Gene excellent George fabulous Sorry for the screw up everybody my fault for sending the wrong link out to get in the room I was treating it like an ARG An ARG like an alternate reality game Yes, trying to find where the password could possibly be in all our correspond. Excellent You know It was hidden in cues in my message if you could if you could decipher the palindrome and then slay the dragon You would find your way here But the much easier way was for for Hank to say hey, you sent the wrong link and for me to copy the right link into an email Oh Buenas tardes Get that in Espana Fine fine to hold here Really midsummer has hit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice to be here with all of you. Buenos dias para todos nosotros Thank you for being here What do you want Lauren do you want to check in oh? Hi, I just I'm super happy to be here and my kids are Not in school. They're at a little day camp. So I don't have to go pick them up during our crawl usually it's kind of a Difficult for me. So I'm really happy to be able to just sit here and enjoy the grown-ups Sweet and we get your full attention which we love Yeah, and so I'm partners with Charles who's also here Charles blast and we run something called key glove which is working collective intelligence And we're all about collective intelligence so So a part of the goal of today's call is to sort out what are our early projects and how do we form up into? Subconversations that can take on some of these some of these kinds of questions. I'm kind of do you want to just check in since you were just Yeah, yeah, well Good morning everyone again, this is Angel Gonzalez. I'm basically in Madrid, Spain and I'm running a social media marketing company that I set up back in 2009 I'm as well as you all you in an infinite learning operating system mode and I met Jerry two months ago at the Exo world it got really hooked with his thoughts and We catch up later on and I'm in this working group and very very excited to be here and apologize because the last two sessions I couldn't attend but anyway I have gone through the last session through the YouTube link and really really interesting They have some thoughts on that awesome fabulous. Thank you. How often do you want to check in? Sure, we're checking out Polis. I got sucked into the Polis website. So, so sorry That's good Hi from Boston hot balmy Boston No, and that's it I'm Working I'm excited this week to talk with Peter van tomorrow Maybe this will be a segue to Peter and I can step on everything he was gonna say We finally actually got re-invited back into cybos to inner tribe to do a crazy Webinar one of a kind never seen before pirate TV experience for inner tribe. So So I'm excited that we're building something yeah, yeah That's gonna be cool and working with some cool people and and hopefully you guys will be able to see it And we will let you know That sounds awesome. And I spoke at this mystical cybos conference for Peter in 2010. I think something like that That sounds right in Toronto. I think So it's a financial services conference and and Peter is the provocateur. He is the Agent of disruption for the for the industry in some senses. Do you want to check in since it seems like a natural segue? So many nicknames for me Yeah, I'm doing really fine not only the the nice project that we are going to do with him I mean that what is on my sort of two things there? I'm I have launched my virtual art exhibition the first of july I can send you guys a link so you can walk around You you want me to put it in or are you going to put it in ham? Yeah, so that's a Normally it was a in-person Exhibition but for covid we couldn't do that. So I created an online one and there is also an Augmented reality part that with your iPhone you can select the a painting and see whether it works in your living room Something like that. And then on the 15th, I will release the what I call the vernisage video And so just before this call I was editing That video up since 5 a.m. This morning because I just was awake And so I could work in the silence of the home Nicely editing away and then the other thing that may be interesting for this group from a content point of view I Virtually bumped into a good old friend of mine. I think you know him Jerry a Sounds like a guy from Copenhagen Thomas Mark then McDowell He did better better ventures or better works and those things I can say it hundred times. I saw him yesterday on anyway. I'll find back And that's all we need to know. Yeah, it's a guy in Copenhagen. Yeah, and hope he's asked a Startup that just came comes out of Stealth mode. It's called every voice.io Every voice.io And what they're doing they basically have interviews with people and they listen to the audio To our previous conversation of text only or not only so they listen to audio of people and they can Reveal the hidden stories of organizations or institutions And they have a nice Interface on top of that that is showing what are the themes that are being discussed and what are the emotions that are in the group So much better from an HR perspective than the annual survey or the 360 degree views Where people don't say everything that they that they care about I Thought it interesting. I don't know how far they are Oh, it's Steve Jennings. Yes, Steve Jennings. Yeah, okay. I'm just looking at their website and I met Steve. He was a normal But his family, okay, he's now in Antwerp He was in Antwerp. I think he was in Singapore Yeah, yeah, he was also Mystery solved Thank you Peter Hank you want chicken? Yeah, I'll make it quick You know, I briefly kind of said to Jerry and Peter earlier at the start of this call I've been think, you know for the past couple days really thinking about Part of the conversation that we talked about earlier Given that we're now moving into kind of this more buckets conversation, right? One of the early questions that we discussed was what's the difference between the think space and the dream space and You know, what is the role of the artist in this whole mix and there's something that I've kind of started putting some some Mental calories towards so my ideas aren't really quite articulated Fully, but they're getting there and that's that's really kind of where my my head's been at specifically and in reference to this project. So That's my check-in Edward you check in a little bit in the chat. You want to just check in live Yeah, I was just trying to be able to get my my boss my kitten from purring directly into the microphone here But yeah, my name is Edward Gordon. I've known Jerry I think I've known you in that we've been in contact for something like four years But I think we've known each other for about six or seven When I'm not getting paid I work with job hackers. We're a nonprofit giving away more than a million dollars in free training too I think we've done it for about we have about five hundred six hundred students so far over the last three years We've been incorporated in free training by providing a free six week class and agile software development software development methodologies Which includes hard-skilled training to the prep students for the professional scrum master one certification in our next class is August 4th Welcome to see more at www.thedobhackers.org And I have an interest in all this because I knew Jerry through Bex And are you seeing a blip rise in people interested because of lockdown and Basically the chaos The isolation economy is really interesting in this. I was working with Larry over the last two years to be able to move them from a A primarily co-located classroom to I mean currently we're entirely remote and We saw an increase in our remote classroom size from 20 to 30 to with the work I did. We have a hundred and 70 starting but it's a free class But it's from 7 30 to 9 in the mornings on Tuesday and Thursday For six weeks and so you see about a 40 to 60 percent attrition rate But even then that's pretty impressive that we've been seeing Just more people coming in on the first time cool Cool really interesting Ken do you want to check in? it was early on the left coast and You are muted still we don't hear you if you are checking in Jean said he's on a different call So I'm not gonna ping Jean Tim you have stepped away George hi everybody Yes Romania one of the us Yeah, well, I'm I'm the youngest guy from from all of you and my she's not so good I will try to explain it as well as I can What for now? I'm just gonna stay on the conversation and listen and maybe creating Ideas so I hope you don't mind I'm not gonna participate to do your conversation about ideas for now You can jump in whenever and however you feel like thank you for being here. Yeah, okay. Thank you. Thank you for really Appreciate it Matt Yeah, so a couple of things one is I've been attempting to Turn some of these concepts into a service layer and Find us a project with one of my large clients that conversation is Is progressing to the next step we're now at the CFO level so I feel pretty good that We're we're getting somewhere and at some point I'd love to engage, you know, this community in Actually thinking about the work itself, but we're trying to bring We're trying to bring sort of this notion and actually if I could just quickly screen share I'm sorry But This can everyone see that yep We're trying to we're trying to say that You know the way that most organizations work today as they analyze things they bring it into some sort of Structure container they make decisions and then they they go ahead and they execute and This works in a pretty stable Environment, but we're not living in a stable environment And so where we're proposing and this is sort of the the idea is that we Start moving to a place where we're sensing in a much broader and holistic way layering on multiple frames Where you make sense of that and then that stuff starts to filter out into the change-making process and this is This was my response to Hamilton's challenge to me to how do you model what is OGM and I'd love to get reactions and thoughts, but this is kind of what we're trying to sell into into this corporate environment to see if we can Fundamentally change the way that they that they think and decide and act As an organization. So that's what I've been working on Well, thank you and let's let's get Peter to Peter van to check in and And then head toward maybe we can get some feedback on your your animation illustration Didn't we hear from Peter remember I skipped your order Jerry. I mean, that's right. Sorry Never mind That's right. Did we miss anybody? Gene is probably still in the call Ken good. You're back Sorry for some reason my internet dropped out there. Ah, hello everybody morning afternoon evening wherever you might be Checking in, you know, I got to say that for the first time since the lockdown began, I feel a little bit oppressed I noticed a shift in my mood where it's just starting to wear on me and I've become very concerned about the mood. I'm seeing out there. I think it's wearing on everybody and there seems to be a much more heightened Much lower threshold for getting an arguments and I'm seeing some horrible things on social media and in the news and Normally, I'm pretty upbeat, but I'm feeling just a little bit out of sorts today. So I might be a little quieter than usual And you might be you have a very good sort of radar or detection system for these things You might be picking up world world irritation in some sense where I agree I think that that everybody's impatient now with lockdown and and in many cases Really under distress from the prospects from what's happened, you know April was telling me yesterday that one of the major airlines is dropping 30,000 or 60,000 employees Unless travel picks up and it's like, that's you know, 40% of their workforce And that's that's airlines, right? And that's not travel and tourism and It's just a whole bunch of very very very hard hit industries and sub-industries so as I and And I think one of the interesting questions as we head into a discussion about how do we organize ourselves is what sort of things might we do that would be useful To people in those situations to communities in those situations So thank you for bringing that into the conversation Matt do you want to screen share again and And let's just see if anybody has any thoughts about the Illustration, yeah, absolutely. Did everyone did everyone get a chance to go? I just want to make sure. Yeah, exactly Yeah, I think so Yeah, I will come back to this and I'll go back one So it just to and it goes pretty fast here, but just this whole thing of You know, we analyze in a world. It's really it's sort of this methodical process Dissecting and processing There are all these different decision-making models that you have where you list out a bunch of different alternatives And then you choose the best alternative and then you go ahead and you you execute those things and and Into into a world where you need to actually not have just a single frame of viewing right this kind of goes And I'm starting in the middle that sense-making has to have multiple different lenses and frames maps if you will and That those things have to be Used to draw in a broader sense of information and I know Jerry your comment around that the information isn't sort of a of a simple stream like here It's really just like this, you know, maybe it was more random pieces, but then that starts to radiate out Ideas and aligned perspectives that actually produce the kind of change that you that you want to make and Open global mind is about For me is about transforming kind of the known world and the way that we are today what is into Into what might be and so It's not perfect for our work But I think this is a way of expressing it into this corporate environment saying Here's what we're trying to build for you a whole new way of running your business, right? One that is much more sensitive And maybe less less Explicit in its analysis in this decision-making, but it's it's more organic and and And Peter I'm going to part of the thing that I was reading that it was the whole benign stuff in this idea of This is more about kayaking than it is, you know You know kind of kayaking through the white water rapids than it is about sort of this logical linear You know we take stuff in we make decisions and then we and then we execute on those things because we know our plans And we know our answers and all it is is about, you know, organizing people to get it done So what are people's thoughts and reactions? So Ken made a comment in the in the chat. Do you want to jump in? Yeah, I love Can you hear me? Oh, go ahead. Okay. Okay. Well, I love how You are visualizing what is the current scenario we are involved in and we have to deal with right now because The world before the pandemic Was quite still and you are highlighting the stress. We all are suffering I learned that in VUCA two years ago Vulnerability and certainty complexity ambiguity, but that term is even more Highlight nowadays, so I think this is a very nice way to to to to set the Existing environment. Thank you Jerry my my comment as I look at this It seems to me that Putting what might be after Changemaking kind of mirrors part of our problem We tend to just do things first and figure out what it is. So I think there might be a Just this is my personal opinion. I'm totally open to Two other views here, but I think we need to sense in and feel into what might be before we start the process of changemaking So that's why I put that they should swap places I think you know what I really like that and I guess the the piece that's not expressed here well is that there is this There is this like I almost see There's this line between what is and what might be and if you imagine that that line is actually the arc of Humanity all things That what is is on one side and what might be is on the other But you're right the way that it looks here is changemaking happens and then you get to what might be it really is The the sense making happens at the boundary of what is and what might be right? Um, is that what you're saying or is the what might be even part of the sensing process? In my world, what might be comes from, you know, first establishing a shared understanding and exploring what our possibilities here and and if we Allow ourselves to enter into an imaginative phase where we used to spend the laws of physics and we have an unlimited budget We can generate a ton of really interesting ideas and then choose from among them the things that we think are actually going to work Given our constraints and then begin the process of how do we actually make that happen? I love it And there might also be a difference between what might be and what becomes Yes, meaning meaning what might be is imaginal. It's uh, it's about, you know, what do we think is possible? What world do we want to create? How do we want to shape events if that's even possible? And there's this whole conversation about and I in the chat I mentioned the connevin framework Dave Snowden's connevin framework where he says in a complex environment you have to you can't hire experts to tell you what to do and then go execute on that and expect those things to work out You have to in fact experiment sense respond, etc But it could be that that that your end state here isn't yet an end state It's it's like, you know, what is and what what will be what will be or what becomes And that what might be is an important Imagining stage in between Lives I think you're right. I think it lives on that boundary The battery of of of what is and what becomes I think that I think that that's I like I like that guys also because sense making As I'm thinking about it involves a kind of Modeling of how you wish things would be or why you think things got to where they are Right. It's just like so in some sense sense making involves questions like how did we get here? Why did this happen? Why would this person have done this terrible stupid thing that got us into this situation? Those those sorts of things are things we ask ourselves as we try to make sense And then on the as we look Toward the future So so that's trying to make sense of how on earth that we get here from the past As we look toward the future what might be is one of the big questions And it's one of the big questions. We don't ask ourselves enough. Usually we're asking ourselves How do I control this this crazy unruly past in order to channel it towards something that'll be useful Toward me and my people whether that's a company and its employees and its shareholders Unfortunately, or whether it's, you know, you're a community that's trying to get something done So there's this aspect of imagination in there I'm a hundred percent there and I think you know as I've been thinking about the sense making process I've been thinking that there's there's sort of three core skills. One is imagination Right, I think that's there and that's the connects to Hanks idea of the dream space and the artist's mind and those sorts of things One is contemplation, which is sort of the kind of the deep thought and the deep processing of things And then the and the third is meditation Right, which is the ability to sort of sit with yourself in the context Of the changes that are happening around you and in the world that is there in your own relationship You know to that and so I think this idea of what might be is really you guys are spot on so good change Any other any other thoughts there because I think this is great and I'm going to Use all of this in my In my conversation with my client I mean matt I I love this model You know, and I think um I just keep coming back to with all models, you know And jerry, you know who said this I always forget it right you always correctly. So George box You even know what I was going to say before I said it right that all no model is perfect But some are useful right that you know can your model of sense making is is another layer on top of this that there is no perfect model and that Matt for your models for me spark all these little micro models or macro models and I just think it's so I think it's great. I think it's like it's that's how progress is made. I love it. So I love your model and I think you know for me Maybe I'll just say like one little layer I have is I clicked in for a client between sense making and change making Because they're in their context. They needed an extra node Of and this is a term jerry helped me get to have choice making Right, so there's a sensing and then there's a changing But there's also this this filtering process and we talked about well, isn't that really what part of sense making is? It can be right so Both are right. I guess it just depends on the lens or the frame right so I just think I don't know. I think that model is a really interesting Jumping off point. It tells a really nice story. I think it's really clear I like the evolution from old to new Can we stay here for just a second? I know we're um, I'd love to You know, one of the things that I've been thinking about change is um, as you look at cultures It's what we believe Transforms into how we behave and how we behave transforms into our you know transforms into the way that we act upon the world around us, right? And so there's one there's one theory that says okay You go through a process you make sense of it and then you make a choice and then you move that through I think sort of the sense making process and sense making is about creating meaning Out of the information that you're getting right and by changing the mean what things mean to you You start to rewire those those internal scripts and once you do that The natural byproduct of that If you can get everybody collectively making sense of the world and creating meaning in the same way Is that they they naturally have actions and those actions then then move into You know move into the world and I think this idea that we are so smart. We can make the right choice I think is sometimes what gets in the way of us being successful versus We become You know we adopt new meaning and therefore we act upon the world and the world itself then becomes you know starts to change and I I'm kind of interested in exploring that You know that that boundary and I don't know I know we're getting off track a little jerry from the buckets But this is one of the buckets that I would love to have is sort of this conceptual modeling philosophy Really understanding the language that we use because I think that's how we're going to develop the meaning amongst ourselves It makes sense of what this ogm thing is so Lauren Lauren then Hank I just want to say that with the graphic I'd like another graphic on a page after this with what what are the things involved in Say sense making or change making so it's just clear like I'll just saw a long list of those actions And so and I also think that we could have Um More than one model like we could make up models for say for example It's a disaster situation and it's chaos Maybe I don't know. Maybe maybe it's always the same process. I don't know but maybe there's a different pattern For chaos and there is for when some people are stuck And they can't they have no creativity In an earlier conversation with matt and crew Where my mind went for the next slide kind of after after this one was Zooming in on the part between sensing and sense making and and Elaborating that and then zooming in on the part between sense making and change making And elaborating that and I don't know if that that helps if that's in the same direction of what you're thinking Lauren or if it's different But that but that would then unpack some of those issues and then as we're sitting here having this conversation I'm realizing one of the big important questions is Who gets to make sense for the organization and typically we assign a bunch of people we hire phd's we We sort of dedicate that task to people and a big piece. I think of what we're talking about is Changing it so that the organization becomes a sense making instrument A super organism animal whatever you want to call it But getting away from the idea that there's like the sense making team over here Which used to be called the corporate strategy department that melted in the 90s like most most advanced technology departments went away Most corporate strategy departments went away This and then this task got orphaned Right and partly what we're saying is we need to do a little cpr on the task of looking at the world and figuring out How to act in it I think in its simplest way and then I'll add another tiny thing which is And there's a there's a meta conversation behind this conversation, which is What degree of simplicity is needed for a model to talk to people in a corporate executive environment? Because the world is messy as hell and there are some really lovely deep Models about changemaking like in heaven like a bunch of others Um, I have a thought in my brain. I can share called useful frameworks and models Which has you know tons of these and so Exactly and so then how do we simplify enough that this makes sense and that this Moves an organization into a new way of being and doing stuff Hank then back to lauren um Yeah, I mean I think matt I was just going to ask you to kind of clarify one thing you made a comment in there about like us us thinking that we're smart enough to To figure it out and like do you mean that that's the rock that we trip over or that's something that we don't believe in Therefore it gets in our way Where I was going is that this idea that we We take everything in and then we make our decision and then and then we move forward into execution Is is a kind of a failure of this idea that this is a dynamic response situation and so to choose and to and then to move forward I think is Is almost a fallacy in a world that is You know vukka or or ben I right you have to actually be constantly Reacting and adapting and I think you know jerry to your point about who does this? I think it's everyone right the answer is the more Diversity that you have in this system and the more of those points of views that you you draw in You know the more capable you are going to be of being able to make sense of things right That sense making is a is a team sport not a not an individual sport and I think it also Requires the latest technologies right I think For us thinking about how artificial intelligence Combines with human intelligence in this type of in this type of world I think it's going to be really important to our our success Because our problems are so big you know the things that we're trying to solve They're only getting exponentially larger right You know the climate change issue as more people get involved and you know as we grow or populate like these things are just You know Huge and I mean it's hard enough to change a 40,000 person organization Let alone You know eight nine billion people right and I think this is this is our challenge. That's That I think is Urgent right now And and I think we're in a wicked problem world There's always been wicked problems afoot, but right now we're really facing them Yeah, and you know horse riddles the guy who coined the term wicked problems. There's other people who have other framings for it Vuka and bani are ways of elaborating on what is wicked about them or what are the aspects of wicked, right? And and that's kind of you know Charles has just put his finger on it entirely. It's really really wicked Sorry, I love that Any other any other thoughts from anyone? Lauren? Did you want to add back to that conversation? Yeah, so when I'm looking at these different models It seems like there's already a lot developed but uh, what I think would be amazing is to really um Have a process of even Figuring out which model could fit which situation and how you assess Like the problem and the people involved And then kind of match what's going on to one of these frameworks that has already kind of been developed and using kind of like patterns pattern language to to do that and work out more systematic way of uh defining the roles needed to do those things and um below that the um, so kind of like the archetypes and then the roles and then below that on the tertiary level like specific roles using specific tools So you can get a really more organized kind of like um Matching going on. That's what just kind of speaks to me because look at all those frameworks that you showed like there's already so much work being done You know, and I want to reinvent the wheel And Lauren, you know this idea of like this people choose frameworks, right? You know, we work with an organization. They say, okay We want to use you know a quarter strategy model or we want to use this we want to use that right And and that whole notion of that interior spinning is that those are we actually It's not about choosing any one. It's about using all of them You know, almost like how do we get to a place of the simultaneousness? of of the latest Of all of the latest ways that human beings think about problems You know to make sense of the world and that's why I think you actually need multiple applications from multiple different vantage points In in in combination with each other because I don't I don't think this idea of Whose model is right is the answer or which model is right in the situation is the answer It's How are we using all of the ways that we have learned to think and see the world Simultaneously so that we can learn and so we can so we can actually handle the complexity that's that's facing us right now. So I think you're right and I think it's I think it's also We have to get we have to get far more Capable of allowing all of it to come in into the frame simultaneously Um, Ken, do you want to say a little more about Chris Corrigan? I'm going to share my brain about him in a second because I have heard of him But uh, do you want to talk about how the link you just posted fits? Chris is a an open space facilitator He does a lot of work in the nonprofit world and has a wonderful blog I put a link to one of his posts here and I was just reading this yesterday about collective sense-making and he suggests, you know This uh, what he's drawing on here is, you know, we're looking at a covet world now And so he's these are coming from Participatory narrative inquiry and human systems dynamics to first observe the situation watch for a little bit And I love that he says, you know, have people Bring in notes about the situation. So ask everybody who's going to be there to bring in at least 10 data objects like, you know, stories, fine-grained tweets, news items, reports, anything And then have them share that and look for patterns and, you know, put them on post-its and start to cluster them together and then say, okay, you know, what's what's actually going on here? What are we noticing in general? I love these questions. In general, I notice this In general, I notice this but Contradictions on the other hand, I notice this but there's also this and then I'm really surprised about this And I wonder about that. So these Questions, I find really useful in groups to tease out and help to Create a space where People can let go of there. I have the right perspective and really sit with that's interesting You know, I hadn't considered from that perspective before and then moving through a process to kind of shake that out into a space Where we can say now we have a sense of what this means. How are we going to use it to further our aims? And so I just switched in my brain to the current state of the coronavirus pandemic because I think that we are enacting in real time The thing we're talking about which is one of the buckets. We need to frame up in how to organize OGM So so This is the place where I and and this the brain that I'm using the tool that I'm using is not very collaborative And it's just me but this is where I put what I'm sensing right now about this situation So, uh, you know a vaccine is kind of a long shot a few countries reacted. Well, us recklessness is turning into a major spike We are actually in the middle of five crises which came from an anjiri daradas had a really nice Set of he had a really nice video anybody knows anand. He's a really worth listening to anyway This mode of synthesizing is what I'd love for us to be able to do together Right in whatever tools we prefer Using whatever models make sense for the situation and the more we can increase our model literacy The more we can increase the reliability of the data that we're using and sharing And the more that we can use these in a way that doesn't just confuse the hell out of everybody insensible important conversations The closer we get to something good that is a form of collaborative sense making Does that make sense? Yeah, and in the middle of that we need to take pauses. We need to step outside and sit in the grass We need to talk to each other over a glass of wine We need to like like all these other things that will allow us to Soak in What was said where we are what's happening because it's really easy to get into overwhelm It's really easy to get depressed by the variety of things going on Um, but the good news is that it costs Nothing these days to hear from the world's experts to synthesize to share information To put like like the cost of communicating the cost of authoring is your time mostly the tools are cheap Uh, etc. So so yeah, how do we do that? And what and what are we Is this the sense making gill is this I mean is is that what this is and and that sounds great I love it now. I want to hear more about the guild stuff Are there are there anybody with thoughts about this? So when i'm hearing jerry just to be able to get a sense of it from what i'm looking at Is that there is an overall goal towards giving everyone the opportunity here to be able to contribute to uh as sensing organisms To be able to bring in their individual points to be able to bring towards a larger theme Much like how when you showed coveted you showed all of your Even independent observations and the pieces that you brought together with the brain So that I can better understand Is there a theme other than sense making about sense making that we Would as individuals be able to bring and are we sending all of those individual points to you directly? Or are we sending them to the website? Are we sending them to a portal? Well, um, so good question. Edward. Uh, so first Um, there's several layers to what you're asking One is as we look to an organization that might be wanting to use ogm as a platform and as a set of services and so forth Who is busy making sense of things and I think that what I said earlier is has political implications I mean, I believe strongly in workplace democracy. I believe in trusting your employees And what that means is Allowing many many people whoever is gifted or inspired to do so to be modeling suggesting Build, you know shaping the narratives That occupy the rest of us and then everybody doesn't have to do this because everybody's got lots of jobs to do and you know But but the more we can share the narrative the more Joe bob can say I like sally's narrative on x and included into his explanation of why we should do something some way Your your your discussions become much more rich and robust as you move through Reality trying to make changes in in the model that Matt showed earlier But then practically as we're doing our work here Part of the reason why I said why there's a linkedin group for ogm Why there's a mailing list for ogm why there's a medium channel for ogm And why ogm is trying to build out something A patch together from open source and other kinds of tools that exist today and then improve them Is that I don't certainly want to be the bottleneck for all these ideas I want us to find our way to the tools that we like to express with maybe it's shooting youtube screencast videos Maybe it's creating animations, uh, like nicky case does. I don't know but And then sharing them broadly with the world so that we improve the conversation In ways that all of us can catch and see which generally means use a hashtag Or post it back someplace more central for us so that we can see it But i'm really interested in like right now We're having kind of an inside conversation because i'm going to post this video on youtube but Eight people are going to watch it. We're just talking to ourselves right here But if we were to to synthesize some of what we did here and post it on linkedin or on medium And then if each of us were to say hey tweet tweet retweet, you know I'm amplify a broadcast then a couple thousand people would be in the conversation And we would be in conversation with the dozens and dozens and dozens of people that each of us already follows today Right um as ken just showed us, uh, you know, here's a person who has here's chris corgan who has interesting thoughts and I had you know I had obviously Followed chris for a while and had a bunch of his posts already in my brain Each of which are connected into what those topics were about So that's that's kind of modeling what's going on matt um Maybe I want to step back because edward. I think I think you asked a really interesting question and then jerry you went to some very kind of tangible artifacts in in your response to that question And maybe I'll go to the imagination space here the dream space for just a second, which is um I I as an as an individual in this world each of you as individuals in this world are um Constantly processing what's going on Everybody is right and they're running through they're running through this thing called You know our brain and we have scripts and we have models and we have frameworks and lenses and all that kind of stuff And when you know, and I'm looking at like how Somebody mentioned something on this call and the chat just like blows up and then all of this all of this other stuff Which comes from human knowledge that's been created all of a sudden flows into this and You know to be able to click on all of these things and to learn all these things That it's it's it takes time and it's difficult right for me as a human being to To even absorb that information and I guess the the the dream space part of me goes What if there's a day where when I have a thought And I'm engaging in thought That you guys are all there In in in my consciousness That the world is there in my consciousness that that people who have already made sense of certain things that I'm attempting to make sense of Become transparent to me Right and and then when I want to articulate those thoughts That there are there are vehicles for me to do that that are really really easy Right and so so so things are things that you need when you need them to make sense of the world in a more Intelligent way or at the level that's required to comprehend what we're dealing with come into the frame When you need them Right. Um, and so I'm wondering how this conversation can be continuous Without it being synchronous Um, and that that's the that's the thing that I I don't I mean, I don't think we've invented it yet I mean and we we can think about how we're participating in today's system, but I also think that there's like um I go back to this idea that So many people have thought things Before I have that I don't have access to and I will never find because the minute I go to the google machine I get 27 ads from consultants who want to sell me their services or 27 ads from, you know The ai machine trying to affect the way that I you know For me to consume or buy stop, you know, and I'm not trying to go there, but we have we have we have we have snipped Our cells from the continuation of human knowledge and therefore we're not being able to apply it to our problems And and our problems are only getting bigger. So that's the that's the dream for me, and I don't know what that looks like Um matt, I love that and I think you know that I wrote a series of things called snip about the financial system So exactly that um charles Hi, thank you. Um Knowledge gardening comes to mind and sort of collective bookmarking and uh digo hypothesis and stuff That's something we we can do now We just have to sort of agree on one or more Places and ways to do that um Another term Concept that comes to mind is the pln or personal learning network or personal learning environment ple Different names for sort of what our our own personal sweet spot combination toolkit Um, and I think within 30 seconds Or some of us a little more or less. Um, we could go around and actually quickly take a Kind of survey or you know Understand who's really using what who loves what for what reasons and and um, You know each of us has a special combination that works and we know and it's fluid enough hopefully And so forth and I think there we can already start to to get more interoperable And it's also my goal to set up a call a zoom session separate from our regular thursday calls To contrast a series of tools around a single topic And gene and I have been collaborating on that but i'm not I need to sort of ramp that up so that we actually sort of book the call and and go do that um We can also it would be also nice to sort of share our tool suites or preferences in some more persistent way Uh, you know and use our tools and figure out what that looks like So we also have a fledgling website where we could put membership pages We may want to use something like notion or coda uh or roam Because these are tools that are kind of in the waters and there are people i'm going to invite in now into the conversation Who are doing roam like tools themselves who who own you know their own their own platforms and stuff like that lauren um So i was just thinking Say for example if uh among us in between us we could bring 2000 people into the conversation through twitter facebook whatever And i was also thinking uh With my experience with other groups Leads me to want to quickly Bring this into practice instead of theory because i think that it will um This Will be faster in terms of our development and actually like Finding the tools to meet what we're trying to do And i think that um one thing that could be super fun Is to uh kind of attack really relevant social issues Like race like i just heard this woman talking about white fragility and how um It's like impossible to have a race conversation with white people because we don't we can't even deal with our whiteness and so producing like crazy shit like maybe um Like a guide for like how to avoid like a crappy conversation about race and like all the Things that you know white people say that are like black people are like oh god like again But like actually like producing using these kind of like sense making things with this super interesting edgy Topics that are actually interesting that produce helpful system level views of things like using all of our talents to really like produce like helpful stuff for these you know Topics that are in the news and um You know stuff like that that you know Because that's where our hearts are and to show that and to kind of that brings We can more easily bring diverse voices into the conversation who normally wouldn't be included and Um show them our sense making tool and also get kind of feedback on So it could be fun that way So lauren you're inspiring me you're inspiring me to to suggest something Let me pass it to you in a second charles You're inspiring me to suggest something inspired by yarn bombing Which is like um, we could choose somebody who just said something really interesting and then Four of us could say oh This really has juice for me and we could create different manifestations of what they said and then just go Send it to them or post them and and retweet around them and say hey We love what you said we've tried to tell that story in different ways Using different tools or something like that and just repeat that as a as a game For a few for a few sessions like pick pick a half dozen different Blog posts or interesting juicy things and then riff on them Several of us not the same people but whoever jumps up and goes oh that sounds really cool And just go do that a couple times. Does that sound like fun? Anybody? Can you say specifically what it is? Um Well like white fragility right If somebody has a post on white fragility something really interesting We could jump in and say, you know, uh, how about how about expressing it this way? Here's what I think it means here's where it comes from Or it could be something about strategic planning or it could be something else But but different of us participating in ogm would riff on it in different ways It's almost it well it is and it's almost like we build the network And we have to build the network of people who are who are practicing sense making And and and then what we do is we ping that network at any given time and we say here is something we need to make sense of And it could be it could be a problem one of us is dealing with it could be a topic It could be anything and then And then we produce ogm studios. Here's how we're making sense of this thing, right? And I see smiles and I don't know if it's because of Kevin And I want to go to Charles, but I want to say hi to Kevin and Judy who just joined the call Um, I was I was going to offer something that was was going to be a lot more off the wall and out there But then jerry you set me up very well with this term yarn bombing um So learn is this is this possibly a moment for the sock puppets Oh Maybe not completely through all that that idea, you know with the different voices and stuff But maybe so jerry, I mean and everyone like Lauren and I We love to have fun and we plan a lot of things that don't all happen But one of the things we talked about is making videos with sock puppets. So learn you could feel more there if you like Yeah, we think uh, we think sock puppets really allow a lot of uh expression And uh, we could all have sock puppets and then act things out and then just make like super quirky uh videos um Kind of acting out what happens and um it can like like Actually puppetry is a really deep. Um uh in old methodology of social fatigue and um, you know Mocking power And this came up. I mean just to give it even more context and it kind of relates maybe ultimately or in some ways We But we've been brewing since last year A new kind of court for the internet And so the the concept came out of a lot of discussions around powdered wigs and really um Amping up the drama and the snark and um So yeah, let's see. I think we we could all have Have some fun there and there's something very playful about about that which is which is nice Kevin did you want to jump in? Yeah, I just I spoke a couple years ago at the un one with some finger puppets It was roomy talking to elinor ostrum and about The un development program and stuff. It was well received By some and other people thought there was a critique which there was But it was provocative. It was it was it and it draws attention. Yeah Yeah, it There were voices that weren't in the room that only the only finger puppets I thought could could talk about And there's there's a role for the court the court jester Often had that leeway that that you know in the court the court jester could say things that nobody else was going to utter And and you know, they risked getting their head cut off because some of these things were actually like really strong critiques But but they had license And that's that's really interesting my my first boss in the world My first job in the world was at mobile oil corporation before it was exxon mobile And my boss was the youngest company commander in vietnam He was a short much virginian who is still alive and kicking and having a great time And he had license from the bosses. So whenever somebody would retire He would we would put on kind of a roast of the retiree And he would contact their spouse and get a whole bunch of pictures and then doctor them up By sending them down to the graphics department to do art on and then shoot again on the slides Anyway, um stuff we would do today with like snapchat and whatnot, right? But but he was sort of the court jester in that department and it was really interesting to watch him use that license And so how might we be Warmly provocative without being disruptive because there's a there's a short line between jester and troll Right, and what does that look like? Well, I think you know, and I think this is this idea of story-threading is at that boundary layer of When you start to create meaning how you express that meaning into the world so that it it has change and I think this you know, I think this idea of sort of a branded puppet theater that is creating really interesting commentary on The commentary that's is sort of being propagated in the world is that's kind of a It's a fascinating idea. And I think this is where as we start to think about how we Structure this thing There again, I go back to that that framework, which is how do we where do we how do we bring in a lot of information? And where do we bring that? how do people access that information And that we all can process it and then and then what do we turn it into And who's helping us turn into what so that it actually has impact on the world so it changes you know, what is into You know, what will be right or what becomes and I think we need we need to kind of isolate these different Areas and start to build the skills and tools and capabilities to do that because I think we You know, everybody moves to this point and everybody moves to this point. I think we're going to miss I think we need to break it down again going back to that idea of the buckets of work and say Where where do we want to put energy and who wants to put energy where because if we're not drawing in all of this stuff We don't have the raw material needed Right and so that's one of the problems. But if we also don't have the The interesting tools like the puppet theater and those things to be able to express what we're making sense of And and to be able to communicate to a world that is quite honestly overwhelmed with You know the torrent of information like we're going to miss too So I think I think we have you know quite a bit of problems to solve and dividing and conquering is probably a good thing Which is part of the goal of this call and we've gotten mostly through the call And I think we've identified one bucket sort of where where where this conversation has kind of stayed so Next next week Let's rent lather rinse repeat and see if we can't elaborate more different kinds of buckets because I think There are a series of really interesting conversations to have to figure out how ogm becomes a thing and builds Builds itself out as we use it because I love the idea of you know fire aim ready Actually, I own fire aim.com. I think because long ago I coined the phrase fire aim never quite ready Which means the idea that you know ready aim fires the is the usual sequence We're never going to be ready. We need to go do something You hope you don't hit anybody and you try not to but then you have to correct and aiming is correcting aiming is is sort of feedback in And I've never done anything with the website and we could at least they do that but I I'm getting the feeling maybe there's a And making it a guild might make it too official But in the chat I'm saying like is there a gesture guild or a coyote guild or a trickster guild That's part of ogm and anybody who feels like playing these games Whether it's sock puppet theater around around really important issues using sophisticated models for example I mean we could have sock puppets doing the narrative and we can have a brilliant kumu systems map behind it And I think the contrast is really really interesting Oh my god, I love it We'll get a lot more of the traffic that's for sure Yes And and if we riff on that with different tools and different approaches and different humor styles and even parodies of you know People who are doing normal stuff in the world because puppets can do lots of stuff then and the trickster and the puppet Are really lovely and evocative things to bring into this conversation. So lauren. Thank you. Charles. Thank you um I think that that it opens a bunch of doors to serious play That are important for what we're doing because if this turns into If the brain software were a database app that said, you know now enter data into these six fields And you can create a new node in your in your map I would never have used it the brain is playful and open to use for me in a way That allowed me to go invent my own cliches my own riffs and and it's sort of Just expressive enough that I was able to do things that humored me Had it been You know 20 people in a corporation who'd been told to go fill out forms in a database I would have been out of there Like I would have been very hard to motivate to go do this unless the dynamics of the group were Extraordinary. Yeah, deadly fun. I like that Serious play exactly people people including kids love serious fun Serious fun is a great way to go any other thoughts on this as we're as we're on the subject Coyote guilds have boundaries and coyote see on boundaries I think that I Kevin I think that's right. I think maybe the the idea of guilds and and Dave roughly on my team joined here and one of the things that he Introduced is one of the sessions is this idea of these different and lauren I think you use this as well these ideas are archetypes Right, and how do we build out various archetypes? You know you so you have the shaman archetype you have, you know, you have the Engineer archetype you have the artist archetype you have the coyote archetype like like I think this idea of being able to move in and out of these archetypes and maybe Kevin guild is the wrong It gives the wrong word But maybe we have to reinvent what what that even means But to be able to adopt these different archetypes and play in that space Because I think we need all of those minds working together, right? Yeah You know if my Dylan says to live outside the law you must be honest, you know another way to think about this Yeah troops Yeah I'm also like I wonder I want to ask you guys How quickly do we try to tackle the technology platform problem? Right, um, you know, we've been debating do we cobble together things? Um, and just use what's readily available and start behaving in this way or do we You know, or do we have to actually be inventing? You know be inventing these this technology platform and it like Well, I think of really simple things like um Um, you know, there's sometimes I'm thinking of a problem. I boy. I want a phone a friend It would be interesting if there was a one in hundred number and you call and you ask the question and all of a sudden You know, the right person gets pinged to answer that question or the right knowledge object It's brought to you know, you know brought to you and how do we make this knowledge really accessible And broad but I mean I think like like simplicity is really or even just a text message where you just write a text message Saying does anybody know any of this and it kind of comes to you really instantaneous because I think that's the part that's going to make this thing interesting and successful Is you can ask it anything and it you get real answers not so you You've just summarized 30 years of critique of knowledge management where it was always trying to fill out forms and databases So that somebody could do search against a big database of cases Or something like that maybe with a little ai and what really works is hey, you need to talk to bob and sally right now And then some ability to whoosh like magic generate that conversation But then and this is just my critique But then wouldn't it be cool if bob and sally could hand you big chunks of their wisdom in some shorthand form In some crystallized, you know, not a tide pod But rather, you know, some some interesting indra's web pearl in the net that allowed you to harness it Use it and then ask a couple much more intelligent questions of them to implement They're they're thinking better or represented better or whatever and then other people could riff on it and so forth So part of the problem is We're finally getting to the point where it's like, hey, it'd be great if you talked with these three people Which is what knowledge management should always been about But now you have to ingest what each of those three people are thinking and how they think and what they what they've got And that's hard because we don't have tools to share them with each other And we are not busy trying to synthesize them with and for each other and and and Right. So if we were all doing a bit more of that work This gets easier and I think the the leverage in this is is pretty immense Uh, one thing I want to point out is that there's an underlying current of every what everybody's saying about talking to other people So there's this issue of communication And it's not like some database queries where you can just type in a string and then get back a whole bunch of stuff Sometimes it takes a whole bunch of a whole bunch of talking to other people In order to determine what the actual content is and then proceed on from there And this is part of the reason it's it's been so hard to encapsulate in the km system It's because it's actually not a give me this it's this and this and this and this and this and oh, that's what's going on And and there's hardly a km system out there that lets you put in the nuances of what actually happened in the situation And mostly what happens in this situation won't carry over into this one But there's a bunch of insights from here that if you if you heard them you could change everybody's life over here, judy do you Well it was a combination of wanting to rip a little bit on the continuous learning dimension Because that's what happens and is so energizing in these conversations and then tying that back to the graphic aspect because I remember doing a paper once on the jester as the agent of truth and drama and Somehow if we could do virtual cartoons and just keep them moving and Send those out in some fashion to the world Invite others to rip on the same That could get pretty exciting I think that the technology of actually executing the mind is Non-trivial I mean you can do it, but it takes a lot of discipline and so I've been struggling with how we actually engage people At the energy and quickness that we want In connecting the A lot of people You said the continuous learning and I missed the last word Oh, well the notion of continuous learning in the network itself Yeah, and whether you can actually do it with ogm itself as the technology platform or what other Strings or threads we need to do that, which is what you've been talking about on the part of the call I missed i'm sure But if we can figure out a way to make that work Then I think we'd be ahead of the game because i'm a little nervous about How readily the world will embrace jumping into the mind? yeah You know, and I think this is maybe where The guilds do come into into play right this idea of like I I think back to these days where You walked into the citadel and you would ask a question of the person who sort of Owned the library and they would be they knew all every book in that in that room And they were able to to sort of draw on it and sort of pull from that text now You're going to need some you're going to need some human intervention here as well Of and people who want all they want to do is to be keepers of the knowledge And you know and a dairy I mean, I think you're one of these individuals where I know if I ever ask you anything You can because of your knowledge management personal knowledge management. You can draw on so many things, right? it's But you also Judith to where you were going is you we probably need people Who are who are literally just listening to these conversations and taking snippets and starting to assemble them and just just capturing What's going on because I can capture and I can think but I can't capture and think at the same time Right, those are really I can't and I can't capture think and write or type at the same time So it's like I can engage verbally or I can engage in the chat But if I get into the chat then I'm not fully engaged in the dialogue And so that dimensionality of communication is something that might be the subject of another conversation Well, and and and I will say that we Collect the next we build a lot of we've built a lot of capability of the kind of these story threader people Right, whether they're the graphic facilitation or whether they're the documentaries or whether they You know our podcasters or those sorts of you know things And I think that's something that we want to bring in here and just say Take everything we're saying and create with it, right and that's where yeah sort Charles No, no, I I didn't go ahead if you want to finish No, no, I was I was running on a steam and I saw your hand. So I want to hear what you know, no, I I hope this is not too much off track, but I think I love all of that by the way, and I'm totally with it And now I might have just lost my thought because I got excited Um, it was something about oh, oh, yeah, this is an observation Which I don't know if this is useful or not, but I just had this realization of a kind that in a particular Environment situation with a synchronous conversation face-to-face as as best we can these days In all these wonderful zoomy ways So Judith what you were just describing basically highlights the a kind of very Organic hopefully flowing and hopefully like functional Like phasing in and out of synchronous and asynchronous In a kind of literal way in terms of the attention on the flow of the thread that's actually being spoken But then there's this other thread there's these multiple that's the dimensionality that I just got I heard it in terms of synchronous and asynchronous within Each of us within the conversation. So I hope that's useful in some way I think it's very useful because this this boundary In the old world of computer aided collaborative work or whatever these things were called Which you know later got called group where now social media plus plus plus There were these categories like synchronous and asynchronous were different things and you use different tools for them When in fact we need to be picking up the same conversation and elaborating on it And and one of the things that happened to like about the brain is that I can bring it I can drag it into a conversation like this Unfortunately, I have to take over the screen. We don't all have multiple screens So I I can't be riffing on things on the side without interrupting a lot So there's no nuance to it whatsoever But I can add to a conversation or try to as we're moving and then in between conversations I'm every day all the time busy curating this thing So that's one of the reasons I adore it is that it works in both modes It's not it's not an either or kind of tool But how do we pick more tools that allow us to gracefully Move things ahead without reinventing them all the time because one of the things that I don't like about Almost all the other mind mapping tools is that when you run out of room on the virtual page You have to throw the page off and start a new mind map And then you're never going to find that old mind map unless you're insanely disciplined And I I've met very few mind mappers who know where the 5000 mind maps they've done all went And how to how to get to them And would Charles Charles would that be describing you? Yeah, kind of okay good I mean on different drives. It's not this not perfect, but is there a hyphen and anal retentive because I feel the same way They're labeled Let's go to Kevin Jerry that's a that's a fundamental problem with any kind of knowledge base is being able to access What's the knowledge in there? Exactly? Exactly Kevin So As I look at this, you know, I'm thinking of you know, obviously comic book Analogies and you know, I'm thinking of Charles and the X man and he knew when it was time to send in the Wolverine It's a Wolverine problem and when it's time to send in somebody who who has a laser vision or whatever And and I think for this to work You need some kind of switchboard that knows when it's time for Wolverine when it's time for whatever It's like what I'm looking at right now broadly is an interdependent local Economy that works in a place across race and class And so I have tons of energy for that I'm both talking to experts But I have tons of time for naive newbies because nobody's figured this part out and there are some things that are working And things that I was into a regenerative agriculture a year or so ago. I'm not into it's just it's going to be slow You got to move at the pace of hospital purchasing So I'm and so, you know, if you want to ask me a question on that I will give you a bunch of time And I will give a bunch of times newbies and I have experts that I'm talking to It's kind of like my beat, you know, you got to figure out what everybody's beat is if you imagine it's a city room with experts or whatever And you know for me right now it's the interdependent, you know, local economy And I think to make this work you you got to ask me or other people the questions that we really want to know more about That I know a lot about that I want to want to know a lot more about There's a Conflict or a synergy opportunity in the difference between knowledge acquisition and organization And creativity that riffs off the knowledge points And I don't that that could be an interesting subject for a future call Because the generative energy of this group talking things through is very powerful because you have a lot of creative thoughts getting connected in different new ways that lead us in new directions And that's a different dimension than my current understanding of the brain per se So we're getting three-dimensional and changing Yeah, and I Judith I completely I completely agree with you and And it is the generative power of of minds coming together in the right and I'm I'm wondering if there isn't almost like There's like this there's this place that we're all capturing our knowledge And how do we capture knowledge in a way that we personally can access it? But then we can also You know release the apis to other people so that they can access that knowledge But then there's also on top of it is almost like the conversation And I'm wondering like what would happen if we had You know lord to your point two thousand people Um that are in our network and this channel is always open And people come and go like i'm noticing you know you you showed up after hamilton left and You know kevin came in and some of us are still here and some people left But what if it was just open and people are coming in and coming out? And and that's just part of the that's just part of the rhythm of You know the way that we we work in and kevin the concerns that you have Um you bring to this table and everyone just brings what they bring And the conversation either will go in a direction that's useful through you or not and then people are coming in It's almost like a an ongoing Unconference right um 24 7 around the globe and um And we just invite more people in As long as we keep our eye on the ball with the with the documentation the repository the Transcriptions and all that stuff Then that's all great, but let let let let it flow let it roll fill up the drives, you know That's a conflict that i dealt with in strategic planning and other places the conflict between ideation and execution And how do you bridge that jump in terms of the next stage of movement by the group to doing something about something And so i think again, that's a rich topic for a lot more discussion and a lot of ideation Lauren you want to jump in? Yeah, so I I think that would be a great idea. I am I I just out I really am excited about this idea of like a doing call and I want to post that Where it's totally like jumping chaos Random people and let's make sense and like crazy shit like an issue that's super interesting and just like inviting kind of sense makers and Random people who are affected by the situation to come together and just like use all these tools To try to figure stuff out, but you basically you use the tools whatever Fits the situation and then I think that what we can do is um Then Dissect that And then be like, okay, how How can we actually what happened? How could have it had been better and what can we do? Like how can we put this in that like an organized framework? So next time it's even more organized, but that way we can have like fun. We can have an outlet for um spreading What we do that people are actually interested in because you know, um fixing corporate problems Zero people are interested in tweeting about this. I think But like if we do if we like jump in the mix with some like social issues that are interesting and then Provide these tools that we're working on to give it like to not only for it to be Extremely frivolous, but it for it to be extremely serious at the same time. I'm just Super excited about that possibility I love the combo and we're getting up on the end of our call time together for today's call um And one thing occurs to me is that this moment Has caused a lot of large corporations to try to figure out what their meaning or purpose is like what on earth Does that mean uh, how's this going to work? What the hell nobody taught me about meaning and purpose in in b-school, right? And it's never been in my pay Comp package and and and like there's there's all the all these problems We could tackle a question like that with sock puppets with gestures with poetry where we could we could sort of work the boundary between the dream space and the think space We could manifest it in a in a bunch of however many ways anybody's inspired to do we could put up a contest That says hey, here's six riffs. We created anybody else go riff on this and see what see what shows up, right? but but corporations executive suites search for meaning and purpose is a serious thing right now um, and a lot of them a lot of them are Clue full and many of them are clue less And they could they would love to hunt for a clue and they don't want to miss the clue train and i'm friends with the founders of The clue the writers the clue train book we can bring them into this conversation as well Uh, because they're really good at expressing these sorts of things Yeah, there's a big piece of that that purpose and that fits with the visioning piece of corporations and some corporations have done that better than others in terms of Not trying to look at externals to see a path But to look at visions of where things need to go And so there might be a riff that we could do around visioning That would engage that deeper thought will stop because if you separate the vision from the action and do them discreetly differently You get different results and we're crossing over into what I Think is the space of a different bucket or guild which is more the philosophical approaches of otm And I think it's a different girl But i'm not sure but it feels like there's a whole bunch of really interesting meaty Yet philosophical sounding conversations to have about exactly this like how does change happen and how does this all work And why are we here and and and so forth Which needs to be permeable and connected to the conversation about expressive tools And how do we make sock puppet overlays so that it's a convincing story and mean making and the and the gesture patrol And i'm not sure part of why i'm convening these conversations is to figure out how to how do we sort those things out So that they work together so that everybody isn't in every conversation because we don't have that kind of time And everybody is applying their joy and energy in the place where it's Biggest payoff for them and for the group and laura. It looks like you are dying to answer that question No, oh you were you were leaning in going Well, I have a comment because I think that there's a big difference between visioning in a philosophical sense and ideation In terms of a future state and so love us to spend some time on ideation because that can be graphic It can be a lot of different things And and it can have an action vector But you don't have to define the vector until you get the actual ideas that you want to pursue And you have just in words described a graphic that matt put a shared on the screen at the beginning of the call When you weren't here yet, uh, you have just described that graphic Okay, sorry. I missed it. Great. It'll be in the recording which i'll send out today so Same time next week and in between happy to suggest and hold a different call gene and I have conspired to set up a couple calls, but I'll figure out how to get those announcements into the room And we'll go from there any any closing thoughts as we wrap today's call Just that I I think it's essential that we bring People who are curious about the documentation side And really our experts they are in into this and to allow them to listen and to produce You know almost to produce based on the material that we generate, right? I think it's very difficult to do, you know to do both simultaneously and I think we need that that skill set in the room And I'll I'll work on I'll work on that. I've got I got to get some people convinced that they need to be here Um, partly also we just need to invite into the group people who love doing that And who would love who would love the content of this and who have no other reason than to To be involved in stuff that that has you know meaning and purpose to them and express it. So Exactly. Let's find those humans Julianne, I think you have a last word go ahead All right. I mentioned earlier that I've been doing a survey on knowledge systems and visit a visualization I'll have that later this month. I thought it might be Useful to send that around because this is a topic. I've been tracking for the last 20 years on systems as complex as the space shuttle and Also trying to bring in popular concepts such as minority report Awesome, awesome And and and minority report planted in many people's ideas the heads the idea that there's less manipulable And Kevin Kelly and a bunch of other people were hired as consultants to minority report and they're friends of our network So we can wander in that territory and we can do it. We have connections into places like Pixar and and whatnot and and I was having a conversation last year about some of the stuff in which he mentioned, you know Uploading your brain and he had connections into some of the people who were busy at the forefront of that research So we can kind of go lots of interesting places Charles last word to you just to quickly ask again about the auto transcripts I can remember do you you include those in the emails? Yes, I put in the I put in the chat that I'm attaching them to the emails, but I should also which I have not been doing Drop them in our common google drive Okay, because those of us who use auto we can also have a group there that's accessible You can share it sort of open link. There might be a nice way to do it Just so if they're all in one place, that's great. Yeah, if there were one place anybody can do something with them that they want Cool Namaste y'all Namaste right here. Yeah Because we're under lockdown But thank you. I really appreciate this conversation