 Well, my distinguished counterparts chose to use the stage just to blame Russia. But by all we just have heard, it's clear that exactly the political goal is behind the desire to associate with Western Union, Western European Union, because it's clear from what you gentlemen just said that you want to draw EU, to your fight against or your quarrel, your dispute against Russia, whom you blame now in all mortal things. I will not contest if there were regular Russian army there, the picture photos of that from the space, etc., would be all over European newspapers. It's not, of course. And can I just show you a few sociological diagrams just to show you don't need to just to mind the colors. It's before my done. One is 1910 and the other is just the first Orange Revolution. It's the year 04. Look how vote the parts of Ukraine without any Russian influence or invasion. So these are two parts who look different at the world. And by, of course, even by what you have just gentlemen said, you want to reinforce this one part, one part of minds of Ukrainians by the support of EU. So it's purely political against the other. Will it bring harmony to Europe in general? Will it bring harmony to Ukraine? Because it's clear. I think everybody must agree that the main goal of any big geopolitical act should be some noble goal, to harmonize something, to bring peace, to bring profit in economics and in social life, etc. Will it bring profit for Ukraine? Believe me, although I am a supporter of our politics, the present current state of psychological war between Ukraine and Russia is a permanent burning wound in my heart, since the grace of my ancestors lie in Ukraine. My father, academician Narodchnitsky, was born in Chernigov and graduated from Kiev University. He could deliver a lecture in Ukrainian. My grandfather, who died before revolution, was director of people's college in Chernigov. And his father, my grandfather, was an Orthodox priest in Chernigov region. So for me, it's a tragedy, all this. But just not because I'm interested that instead of joining European Union, even in the form of association, Ukraine will return to good relations and associations with Eurasia. I'm not naive, I'm an expert in international relations. The relations between Russia and Ukraine deteriorated, have deteriorated so much now that there is no hope that they, just in one turn, they will improve. So it's not egoistic, in terms of Russian interest, that I'm just expressing my doubts. It's my doubts, it's not my... I have no right to advise either you or the Ukrainians how to behave. But if I understand you correctly, your main argument is that based on this picture, one half red, the other half blue, that the Ukraine is a divided country and it's not one unified state which can make... Well, it certainly started as a unified state and the only condition to keep it that way and enjoy God's gift in such a territory, such economy, such science, such high technological industry. The only Republic of Soviet Union that left with industrial production of high quality, sharing with Russian enterprises the cosmic production for space, etc., etc. So it's all now... Who needs that in European Union? Especially that European Union is very egoistic and it's very... A colonelist, you know that it doesn't allow the members to export more outside the EU than they do in EU. Who needs what Ukraine produces now? I mean, what it rests from... In European, nothing. So that means that hundreds and hundreds of thousands of jobless people who would lose their jobs because it will be deindustrialization of Ukraine. That means demodernization because of that. They will rush, of course, to European Union to seek better fortune. Are you ready for that? Listen, in the beginning I felt slightly confused telling the Dutch what to think about themselves but when I see the Dutch can tell the Ukrainians I feel very much free because I have a problem with the referendum. I have a real problem with the referendum which has nothing to do basically with the Russian-Ukrainian story and here is where my problem goes. I very much agree with you that there is a major gap between the publics and the elites and I do believe that the referendum is a genuine democratic instrument. In order for it to work they should have consequences for people because what I'm afraid of this referendum is three things. Do you remember how the Dutch government and Dutch public has been unhappy with the Greeks in 2011? Wanted to have a referendum on the reforms saying basically you cannot keep Europe the hostage of the Greek domestic politics. Why do you believe that you can keep the common foreign policy of the EU the hostage of the Dutch domestic politics? And for me this is a major issue because it's about Europe. This is I very much understand that you can have arguments for or against but here is what I'm afraid. I do believe for example that the British referendum is totally legitimate. You have two positions people going to decide and on the base of this decision some important things are going to change in the life of the Brits. What is going to change in the life of the Dutchman if they're going to vote no? Nothing. And this is my problem with the referendum. It's very much kind of a low cost just a tactical instrument to paralyze the European Union and with respect to Ukraine this is... And do you know where is the problem with Ukraine? Because of course everybody... By the way for me Ukraine is one of those countries for which I don't know everything or you know nothing. So I'm not going basically to make any statements about this but here is my story. You're sending a very strong message to everybody. Europe is closed. We don't want to be nice to people anymore. From this point of view the signal of the referendum is not very different from the Danish people saying you should take basically the values of the refugees. Not because we want them but they should know that they are not welcomed. But basically killing the hope of people even if it's a wrong hope. It's not a crime. It is a sin because you're saying that if you're going to get them they'll go and basically leave their country. What is the message that we're telling the Ukrainians? Nobody is going to leave Ukraine aside. We are helping Ukraine since 2004. We have good neighborhood policy in Europe. We try and take care and help you fight corruption. There are programs with technical assistance, financial assistance, twinning projects. We do a lot. We spend money in Ukraine helping NGOs fighting corruption. Helping NGOs bringing more rights to the gay community. Doing all sorts of things. The Dutch have programs, many programs in Ukraine that cost us a lot of money. And I support that. And I think we should keep on doing that. And we don't need the treaty. Already it was said that in the past 24 months many laws have been passed in Ukraine without this treaty. So already Ukraine is reforming. And I was happy to meet many Ukrainians who said that even if the Dutch say no to this treaty even if the Dutch say no we will keep reforming this country because it is in our own interest. And that gives me hope. Because it is an interesting wish of the people of Ukraine to reform the country. And also to reform the political system that Mr. Klimkin comes from and represents. Just two sentences. Because first of all I do believe you are going to be right. If the Dutch people were not going to have an opportunity to have a referendum if you should basically get Ukraine in. But you have this option. Ukraine, I don't believe it's a legitimate question. Should Ukraine be a member of the European Union is not something obvious. But I do believe that you have and you are going to have all of the member states. This option if this question is going to come. We are not discussing this. Do you know what is the message that basically you are sending to the world? The message is if you want to change your life. It's not enough to change your government. Better change your country. And then when people started basically said that the only way to change is to go to Canada or EU or US we should know that this is the message that we are sending them. And from this point of view of course to be honest I'm not fascinated by the performance of the Ukrainian government. I can imagine a better government. And it's not about how well or bad they're doing. It's about the message. Do you want in the beginning of a political process to tell people listen. We are in the business of keeping you out. This is for me the story. Ivan the message that you are advocating is extremely dangerous. If you say that holding a referendum which is the purest form of democratic expression is holding the European Union hostage then you are putting the institutional interest of the European Union above popular will and popular sovereignty. You're putting it above the project. No, if it was all Europe referendum it's one thing. I'm not against that. But that's not at hand. I was years ago I read a science fiction short story. Romanian one. By the way having Bulgarians and Romanians on the stage I know is not helping the Ukrainian cause. But going out of business. But the story was the following. Basically they would come with the political system in which when they elect the president they were putting a bomb in his body. And everybody is on his phone. The possibility after the president takes a decision to vote yes or no. And if three times the no a modern yes he explodes. The only problem it's a very democratic but I'm not going to call this regime a democracy. And by the way I don't know anybody. Even the socialist party spoke person. Running on an election like this. So from this point of view I do believe that the referendum is a very important instrument. But this is the nuclear weapon of a democracy.