 Okay. Welcome back everybody. Thanks for taking the break. I am up here with two gentlemen who are going to lead us in a great discussion about the Camaro project. So I'm going to hand over this microphone and let them introduce themselves. Yeah, thanks Jill. Hello everybody. Great that you are here. I'm Markus Kümmerle from Deutsche Telekom. I'm leading the Magenda API exposure program of Deutsche Telekom. Yeah, I'm happy to be here with my second head. I am driving Camaro I think since the beginning, since two and a half years. My name is Alberto Torron from Telefonica. I'm the head of the GoToDevelopers area for the Open Gateway initiative. We do have Telefonica globally deploying these days based on the Camaro initiative of the Linus Foundation and we're really proud of being one of the believers in all of these initiatives, right? So we're happy to join you. Yeah, let's get started. Okay, then let's get started. So hopefully you enjoyed it and please imagine the fire behind us because it's a fireside chat. Yeah, beginning with the whole thing. Why are these network or Telco API so important and interesting? Telcos have decided to open the networks for the new business cases and there are two reasons for that. The one is today the world optimizes as best as possible and for that we need an interaction with the networks too. So there is a great potential, there is a great benefit, a great value for the customers. But also for the Telcos, that's the second reason Telcos can't stick to the pure connectivity. So it's very important for them that they get additional revenues, on top revenues and for that opening the networks, that is a real women's situation. And then the question is how you can open the networks. And in two days times, it's a good idea to do it automatically and by that automatically you do it via APIs. So coming to the APIs, then we thought about how we can create these APIs. The first trials were using the existing technical APIs, but that failed. And the reason is these APIs require a lot of Telco knowledge, have a high complexity and they can be different from Telco network to Telco network due to different topologies, vendors and so on. So it's not a good idea to do this low technical level that we learned and for that we created a new level, an intent based level of APIs with simple, easy to consume APIs. On the other hand, when we started with that and had the talks with first customers that were, for example, automotive customers, they told us, yeah, that's really great. We use the APIs, we build it in our cars, but only if these APIs are available in all the Telco networks in your country and our cars have a bad ability, they can drive over borders. So it should be working in Germany but also in France, Spain and all other countries too. So this global availability that was the second big driver for the whole thing. And out of this, we created the idea for Camara for the open source project. Two and a half years ago, we reached out to the first partners, for example, also Telefonica and together we worked on it. We launched it at Mobile Workongress 22 with 22 partners. And now it has grown significantly. We are happy to say that we now have more than 70, 750 people and from more than 250 companies in Camara and that's really a success story. But it's not sufficient to do that, to make real business happen. We need an ecosystem and for the ecosystem, we need something more. Well, we need many more things. The idea is not about being creative only with the technology. The idea is to figure out what will be the best use cases and how to get to the correct partners in order to speed up the process. I mean, all the big Telcos have plenty of technology around. We've been growing our business based on new technologies, faster networks, more capabilities and so on. And we've been using APIs for ages these days. So the idea is what if this is accessible to the developers? What if we make this easy enough? What if we do fine together with the best developers on earth, the best use cases that can bring more security to the transactions, bring new use cases in the transportation, bring speed and trust to the evolution of the personal communications and the B2B communications as well? What if we can give you another taste of the use of technology at home? What if all of this can be deployed together as we did, for example, with the roaming? Remember, the early days of the roaming were a nightmare, but then we had agreed to exchange information in a proper manner. And from that point on, we grew our business together. Today is very, very big, right? So the point is what if we're capable to simplify the adoption of this new technology? And what if we bring the latest networks at the fastest speeds we've ever seen with a taste of new services together with you, right? This is the point. That's great. Let's talk a little bit more, more to your overall presentation here. Marcus, tell us a little bit more about telco network capabilities, API capabilities. Yeah, let's have some examples. Okay, perfect. So first of all, I want to point out it's not limited to mobile connection. We're also looking on the fixed line connection and all other telcos two APIs from the telcos two capabilities from the telcos two. Yeah, let's have some examples. So we can divide into two groups. On the one hand, telcos have a lot of data about the network and all the contracts. And so we know a lot about the devices. So we can tell exactly where a device is, which can be very helpful. We know a lot about the status of a device, if it's connected or not, or if it's in roaming state and where it is. But also we know a lot about the network itself. So we know how the situation is in a specific cell. We know how congested it is. And that could help to do some traffic jam warnings, for example. Let's imagine a simple example, a car is driving on a road and the driver is have a very important phone call and he wants to know if I drive, follow this road in one kilometer, five kilometer, 10 kilometers. How is the situation? Can I continue or shall I do better or break and finalize my call? Such simple things can be answered. So this is one part using all the information which we have in our network about network and devices. The second one is the more interesting one. So the possibility to actively configure or influence the network, for example, with quality and demand. So it's possible to progress a data connection from a device, from a specific application on device to a specific server and application on the internet. And by that, getting a reliable connection, a low stable latency and a stable bandwidth. And that is interesting for a lot of use cases. So imagine remote control from a small drone or HIV in a factory up to complete teleoperative driving. That is a great field. The second great field is, for example, ARVR. Also very important, prominent example is remote maintenance. You have unexperienced people all around the world. They are supported by experts in the office and using some ARVR classes. Perfect case for this quality demand. Gaming is a big thing. So the faster you can shoot, the better you are. It's very easy. And then also a big field is safeguarding of transactions. So banking transactions, ebay, all kind of things. You know it also. You are clicking on a button. Yes, I do the transaction and then you are waiting. You see the send clock. Nothing is going on. And exactly to avoid this situation, to safeguard this little piece of information, we can use this API. So there is a lot of potential in. And these are only the first technical examples. I'm pretty sure the real business demand customer welcome. It helps us to get in touch with the customers, to have talks with them and to see what they really demand. And then we want to build the best APIs for them. Great. Thank you. With that in mind, Alberto, what are you hearing from your customers? What does the demand look like? We have a very, very insistent demand in terms of adding layers of security. Because we will become a trusted party for transactions of our customers at the end of the day. From the earliest banking services, we do send SMSs to confirm with one time password the transaction. So this is becoming more and more difficult because the smithing attacks are becoming important these days. So we're figuring out if there's a way to provide different set of services based on APIs that could handle this situation. At the end of the day, one certain thing is one way or the other, the telco companies tend to be a bank for the privacy of the users. I mean, we don't sell the data for customers. And that should make us become a trusted party for the transactions. So if you think it really, really ensures them, why not addressing that need and figuring out if there's something we can do to help the trust and the confidence of the online transactions that on a daily basis we all do perform, right? But more and more services will be coming from the quality and demand API. We'll see more of that. And many other things that combine will create completely different digital experiences for our customers. And that's the value we must provide together. I mean, it's not about the telco bringing all the staff home and getting all the monetization of the services. It's about creating this really fast to make sure we do align to the purpose. And we help, for instance, the sellers know better their customers with their trust on board, right? The privacy must be granted. It's something that we do very well. We're used to that. So if we go together and address these market needs, we will create tons of new value, new revenue streams. So how are we going to address those market needs? Enter Kamara. So do you want to, can you talk a little bit about how that's going to happen and what problems are going to be solved with this project? It started small, it gets larger. That's a simple, simple summary. No, we started, I think, in a group of eight in, in early 2021. And we thought about how we shall organize this telco alliance. We wanted wanted to go a different way. So typically telcos tend to do some SDOs standardization organizations, and then take three or five years to create some papers, and then you get the APIs. But in two days times, that is too slow. So then the business is gone, and the chances is away. So we decided to do it differently to do standardization via code, via an open source project. And by that, we approached the Linux Foundation, because Linux Foundation is the biggest organization on that planet with the biggest open source projects, and they know how to do open source projects. So and, but we also wanted to have this telco domain knowledge in. So we had talks with the GSMA about a collaboration between the two organizations. And it was a hard time in the beginning to do all the negotiations and created legal terms of reference, but we have managed it. And finally, yeah, we could launch it at Mobile Work and Rest 22. We've already 22 partners. And that was, I think, the real kickoff and starting point. And then people it grow exponentially. We haven't done any great advertisement for it. It was only from from mouth to mouth. And people came and it grew and we got more APIs. Now I think we have 14 plus four API families in Kamara already. And where can people find access to this? Oh, it's quite easy. There is a slide in I think it's the last one. There you can see. Yep, exactly. Thanks a lot. So if you want to get more information about Kamara, use this QR code or this link to our nice web page. Also thanks to Linux Foundation for creating this. And you can get a contact page and can also ask all questions you have. I think we can talk a little bit more about the architecture and some of the specific work that's been done. So let me throw up this architecture slide. Okay, so that picture, we can quickly go through it. That's exactly this intent based level. You can see the green boxes at the bottom are the technical API standards, the existing ones. But based on this, we want to create this intent based level. Let's do it with an example. So let's again take this quality and demand. A customer is coming and he is telling us, please give me the best quality you have for the next hour from this device and this application on the device to this server and this application on the server. That's a simple question he gives us. He doesn't cares about any network telco topics. Simple, easy to consume. What we are doing now, we are checking. First of all, what is the situation on the device? We are already in talks with device manufacturers to optimize the latency on the device. So that are APIs which are in the chipsets of the devices. Second, we are looking in our mobile network. And there we have several opportunities. If the device is in a 5G standalone cell with a slice, a load latency slice, it's the best to use that slice. If no slices available, you can using the five QI glasses in the cell. And if the device is only in a 4G network at a country side, you can use QCI glasses. So we have to look in which situation are we and what can we do to optimize the latency here. And then it continues to the fixed line. There is an exchange point between the telco infrastructure and the internet. And the next job is to do some traffic influence to bring the traffic to the closest exchange point. So to avoid the latency is also the fixed line. And then you look at the back end application, where is it? Could it be relocated to the closest edge independent? If it's a telco edge or a hyperscalar edge, and then bring the application there. And if there are some devices in a Wi-Fi in a home network, then we have to do some optimization and the Wi-Fi. And all this complexity is behind this simple, easy to consume API. You can see it at this slide. So the blue layer on top, that's the easy one, and that's visible to the developers to make it easy. The light blue one, that's the job of the telcos, the more difficult one. And the green ones that are the basic capabilities that you use. And I will lend the plane that's fine. It can be easier. What if we can provide you a premium service to make your gaming experience much better? What if we can provide a premium service based on this quality and demand service? What if we can provide security from the sky based on drones that can fly even in congested networks? What if we can provide services that will make holograms visible for a daily basis or metaverse services? I don't know. And what if, and this could be shocking if we get to that point, what if the cars don't need that much infrastructure on board and can rely on the service that we can provide from the edge and our antennas and so you can pay as you drive autonomously in the cities? What if all of this will become feasible in the few next few months? What if we can do that? And so the thing is, we're deploying ultra fast networks, we're deploying ultra low latency networks, mobile networks as well. And if you mix all the pieces together, we can create the experiences that will become a game changer in the close future in Europe and America, right? So the point is, what if we do it all together under the same standard and create value as an aggregate for the market? That's the challenge we're trying to address. So what does it look like in terms of usage so far? So, Marcus, you were saying earlier that there's a handful, there's a pretty decent number of APIs already set up. Are any of those actually being deployed and used in production right now? Yeah, let's look back to Mobile Workongress this year. There, we already have more than 20 showcases of Kamara APIs in the live networks all over the world. So from Brazil, from your company up to, I think it was Indonesia, from Axiata, a lot of networks already had implemented the first APIs and the situation has improved since then. So there's a lot going on. In general, we can say 22 was the year of the first APIs in the labs. 23 is the year of the first technical APIs in the live networks. And now the next step is the commercial one. So we need the commercial products of the APIs and all the tacos are currently really working on that to make it happen. Great. And so, Alberto, you mentioned a little bit about privacy and regulations in Europe. How does that impact the work that you're doing? A lot. It's shocking. We're shocked with that. Thankfully, the European telcos are used to get privacy by default and security by default. And this is a red line. We're not going to cross that board. We'll make sure our customers' privacy will be granted from scratch. And that's a very big win for the start, but it makes all the stuff difficult at the very beginning. Not only the privacy itself and the regulations related to privacy, but also all the rest of the regulations in the telcos space, related to how do we compete. And at the end of the day, we're very big companies and we cannot agree to deploy the same service at the same prices in the same market. So it's absolutely shocking. What we call the multi-telco discussions are surrounded by lawyers from each side. And you have to make sure that you say the exact words that cannot end in an antitrust. How do you call it? Lawsuit. So the idea is that taking advantage of the existing technologies with the difficulties we are suffering in the technical and legal and economical area in Europe these days is a big challenge. But we're going to address it very well. So the point is we are sure that we're going to be committed in the future, as we have always been, in taking care of the privacy of our customers by default. But we need to learn how to deal with big, big players like hyperscalers or aggregators that must adhere to these terms in Europe as well. And it's not only about them, it's like social media and so on. There are plenty of different parties involved in these initiatives that must adhere to the extent of the law. So you cannot go by your own in a regulated space like the European. So how does that work then when you're trying to deploy similar services, say in South America, where maybe the restrictions aren't quite as stringent as in Europe? Does that create more work, or do you just pour it over what you've already done for the Europe? Following the same standards these days, because what we're aiming to is a global service. We want to make sure that come what may. We think that all the world is going to go in the same direction. We're going to protect the privacy of the users. So we see that in America these days, things have changed. And there's much more protection to the end user these days in the privacy that it was in the previous years. But the cases that we're going really, really to the extreme in Europe is just shocking to discuss up to the last specific detail of each contract. So it's something we're learning to do and we'll do for such a big service. So where does the bulk of that work fall on? Does it fall onto the telcos or more to the developers who are coding these APIs? Or is it kind of everybody all hands on deck? Everybody must have a view to that. So we set the standard at the end of the day because we know very well the regulation. We've been dealing with that for ages. Telefonica will be one century old next year. So imagine we were used to protect the data. So of course all the rest of the players must have a view to our standards and then we grow a business together. So what's next then? We had some we had a discussion earlier today about 6G and we know AIs all over the place right now. So where do you see Kamara evolving as technology evolves beyond just the standard 5G stuff that's getting embraced very quickly right now? Yeah, I think the way forward is to create more customer demanding APIs. Currently we are two technical. We use the first technical capabilities. We create APIs out of it. Yes, the customer is needed. They can do nice things with it. But we should now learn from the customer what is your real demand, what you really need for us and build these APIs. And that could be combinations of all these technical capabilities like with this quality and demand or more specific things. So also an example we are in contact with one of the big hyperscalar companies and quality demand is a good thing for them. Then they told us no real time is not so interesting. For us it would be more interesting to see how is the performance of a specific cell on a typical summer day in the afternoon 4 p.m. Because they are optimized already and this information helps them to optimize the whole network. So it's much more important for them than having the real-time information. So that's exactly the example where we have to go. We have to get in touch with the customers, get all the requirements and see what best we can do for the sake of the customer. Yes. And I imagine a lot of that changes in real-time and it changes as they're deploying the stuff and starting to use them. So I imagine that would be one of the positives here of open source is the ability to develop those things very quickly. It's the only possibility to do it in that way. Because it's an HR process. Without having a first example people don't know what they need. So we have to show first something then they get the idea that could be good and that could change that. So it's a typical HR way of working which is really key and we are very happy that we have chosen that way. Great. So going back a little bit to organizations that are participating in Kamaro. I know we're starting primarily with the telco folks but are you looking to bring in the hyperscalers and all of the SIs and the vendors and the whole ecosystem? Or is it maybe you're starting with the telcos and kind of branching out from there? What does that look like? So it's key to have not only the telcos in. So because we need the vendors. If we want to create the APIs following the demand of the customer we have also to influence the roadmap of the vendors because we needed basic technical capabilities here. So that's important. Happy to say that we have a lot of them already in Kamaro so you can see it on the local list. We have Ericsson, Nokia, Mavinia, Huawei only to name a couple of them which is already great. Then sure we need as much as possible operators here telcos because the APIs have to be implemented in all the networks and this is also great. We have from the U.S. Verizon and T-Mobile and AT&T as the biggest ones. For Europe we have Telefonica, DT, us we have Telecom Italia, Orange. A good coverage in Europe. We have XZ, we have China Telecom, China Universe. Huawei even telcos from small countries like Peru, Uruguay and Hawaii even. I want to travel there. So that's really really great. We have already a very good coverage from the operators. But then we need the customers and that are the hyperscalers? Yes, because they are interesting customers for us. So happy that we have very active Microsoft in and also Google and in the background we also have the other two ones working with us. That's really great. But we would like to have more customers in because we want to follow this customer demand and it's key to get all the requirements here. So do you think what are some of the barriers to these organizations joining or maybe they don't know about the benefits? Are you seeing any of that or what's the biggest barrier? I think it's just to know what's going on because we yes we have launched it but it was visible only in telco ecosystem and now we have to make it public and tell look we have something great for you. What do you really need from us? Please join, help us to develop the best APIs for you and it's just the next step. It's something normal I think. What do we have to do now? Well there are more. Of course first of all developers must know that the capabilities are around. I mean we're launching this in Spain with an early adopters program in Spain, Germany and Brazil and we start testing by November. So hopefully for the next mobile conference we'll be really ready with building customers with a lot of building customers hopefully. So the idea is if we manage to make sure we do align to the privacy standards, the regulations and so on and we finally get all the stuff set and ready in the legal part of this business and this hopefully will be ready in a couple of weeks. The plan is to start testing with hand customers really really fast and we're on it. We're starting to developing the approach of concept and we have this I don't know maybe almost 300 early adopter companies registered in our portal so we find there's a lot of interest and the thing is all of them say the same thing, the same song. Okay make sure you align with the rest of the telco in your country and we both together to the market otherwise it won't make sense. So that's what we're aiming to. So how are companies like Telefonica going to monetize this? Well that's easy one. I mean we're used to sell services separated or aggregating them at the bigger services and we think that the point is if the all the industry finds out the best way for each API to charge for the service for the number of instances, the time you use it or the bundle of API consumption you do in a monthly basis whatever, I mean it shouldn't be a big issue to prove the value to the market. So we don't see in that point a barrier at all. We think that probably given the diversity of APIs we're going to provide we'll need to study case by case what would be the best way to go to the market with the developers to make sure we all together find the value. And are you feeling any sense of competition with some of your other some of the other telcos in terms of how they're using Kamara and these APIs is it more of everyone's working together or are we seeing a lot of forking happening and people trying to solve similar problems and then close sourcing what they've come up with? I think currently we have a very good situation so we all know we only win together when it comes to the API definition because only this standard this global availability is key. So there is no competition there is a real good collaboration. Because everyone has the same problem so there is. Yes, the competition comes when you think of the implementation of the API. There you have the differentiation and there you can try to implement it more efficient better faster than the others and that's still open and that's okay. Yeah and that's where the monetization piece comes in as well. Okay great, so we talked a little bit about some of the APIs that already that are already out there is there anything more that you want to share about that or anything that's maybe currently in the works that people can look forward to seeing soon? I think one important topic is there has been alignment between the Linux Foundation, between the GSMA and TM Forum about the collaboration of the different standardization bodies. Because the industry wants to have one solution and not three and we are very happy to have created a white paper for it so we aligned the area of each of them and also here we have a very good collaboration so and it is done like we have the technical standards from 3GPP for example or broadband or from CNCF from from the Etsy Mac for cloud that is the technical layer then we have TM Forum for the whole orchestration and management of the thing and then for the customer facing the intent-based customer APIs we have Kamara and I think that's that's a really successful Kamara to be to get this role but it's also a great responsibility so customers and the whole industry is relying to us and so yeah we are happy to go the next step and that we will announce tomorrow so if you like you can join the keynote there could be something in from Kamara if you're interested great before we open it up to additional questions how closely aligned are you with other open source groups and projects is that is are you seeing a lot of integration there or is it more kind of integrating across each other in terms of the members so in the moment the most important alignment was with TM Forum and with the GSMA that is done now but there is much more to go so we have a very in talks with the Etsy Mech we are in talks with OpenID so with a couple of more but it's going on and has to be done great all right are there any questions in the room hi I would have two questions one is that where do you draw the line between the CGP defined APIs and the Kamara APIs or TM Forum or other organizations and the Kamara APIs you had a slide with these layers but I think I need some more clarification on that the other question is you said that there is this common interest to keep the APIs the same and all of that but still do you plan to have some kind of a conformance program for the APIs or some kind of you know like a way to test if an API is a Kamara API or not and or if you plan to do some kind of a versioning of the APIs because now you are in an easy phase when every API is the first one but there will be a second and the third I can answer you then the second one because it's something we discussed over the last few weeks at my office and I was given I think it was a very correct answer right at the end of the day we what we do is to share repositories and set the standards and at the end of the all of this initiative what we send to the market is a couple of lines of code one single line of code is what we always mentioned probably could be a couple of them with with all the commands you need to to use to ask your telco provider about something right you have the repositories with all the versions and we simply say this and telephonic is using version 3.1 of this one and you have the repository will be straightforward for you it's not a completely different integration but what we aim to do is to make sure that we do a line to the in each country to go together with the changes and the evolutions right so that's the aim let's figure out what will be the best way to roll up this app because it's as you can imagine extremely complex organizations but the easiest way will be first of all show all the steps of the project and show where you are with your standardization probably the differences will be pretty tiny right but if there there are some you will have plenty of documentation on board in the same place it was from the very beginning right but again it's not easy at all one of the challenges we we face and it's something that we probably get very fast over it is that the starting point from the one MNO to other one telco company to other is completely different I mean we at Telefonica we've been investing tons of efforts and money over the last few years to make sure that everything is ready for something like this to come and for us it's really strategic because we see the value but not all of the players around are the same page right but again it will be about sharing all the knowledge making sure this consists of open source information documentation and standardization otherwise it won't work and the first one is okay and for the first one I would like to show one slide it works great so going one level deeper for you looking at the customer facing APIs we decided to create three different groups the one are the service APIs so the APIs who really do the functionality provide the content then we have service management APIs who enable the service APIs and then we have to operate APIs let's do an example again quality demand the customer is in a cell and the first thing he wants to know how is my performance in the cell and this API is a service management API so he can ask and he get the information it's not so good yeah then the second question he has what services are available to improve the situation and that is an operate API from TM Forum so here he gets the catalog of the available services in a cell and then he sees oh look there is a quality demand service API which I can call so that's the next step then he calls the service API and then at the end he wants to know how has the situation changed how is my performance now again he calls the service management API how is my performance and gets oh it's now exciting so and for that the customer is happy to pay some five cents for that and that's the exactly way the things should work and it's good to organize the APIs in that way because TM Forum already has created this operate APIs we don't want to duplicate the work so it's a good thing and we focus and come out really on the service and service management APIs thanks just building on the implementation and you know viewing a little bit forward would it operate similar to and and you know I don't know what the end user is is it like me or is it an enterprise or it could be both or it could be an IOT or whatever but for if you if you take an analogy of data services roaming and data right we move around and go to another country we get a text you have low speed data click here you get high speed 5 gig for X dollars right or something like that that is increasing our throughput and bandwidth and all that right and that's kind of I wouldn't say quality on demand but bandwidth on demand or whatever are you envisioning or not bandwidth but just you know speed on demand yeah or latency right so you're is the implementation of this going to be something similar for for all the other services like quality on demand or is it through some more portals and things like that or is it going is it coming to the phone or is it just going to stay with the network management and the ops people I don't know if you're going to understand the job as long as it's not in Spanish I mean I'm Galician and we all answered with perhaps we don't know I mean it's just a joke the idea is what if if you have the option I don't see from these type of initiatives the compulsory use of certain services in order to get enough from your supplier it's the opposite one so I see that there will come some premium services that will make a difference in the latency completely different to the throughput in the latency in congested services where there are plenty of people and you cannot with the existing networks do anything then probably you'll find out a way to do some basic stuff that otherwise will be completely impossible right but the case is that we want to preserve so far the network neutrality I think we think this is a basic right so so it's not about that we're not touching that space so far because the regulation doesn't let us move forward than that right so the idea is what if you find we find a way to make use cases profitable profitable for the telco with the existing networks and the networks to come and very good for the end customer call it B2B, B2C, B2B to C call it a drone it depends strongly on the use case and we're trying to discover the faster the better these use cases that will change the industry because we think this will change the industry for better but we must preserve the existing regulations and add you to that and that's something I want to stress because this is something for us Reiki any other questions all right I think we can wrap up this session thank you gentlemen thank you very much