 Okay, thank you so welcome to the Amherst Historical Commission public public meeting on Wednesday, November 17 2021. I'm Jane Wald and as chair of the Amherst Historical Commission I'm calling the meeting to order at 633pm pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021. This meeting is being conducted by remote means members of the public which to access the meeting may do so in the following manner. Open the town's homepage and on an internet homepage on an internet browser, navigate to the town calendar at the bottom of that page, click on the historical commission meeting link zoom and telephone connections and the meeting agenda can be found there. No in person attendance of members of the public is permitted, but every effort will be made to ensure that public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means. In addition, this meeting is being recorded and minutes will be prepared. So now we'll do a roll call attendance tally for members of the commission. Patricia off. Present. Catherine Davis. Present. Robin Fordham. Present. Becky Lockwood. Present. Janet Markport. Present. Heady startup. He's not present. And Jane Wald I'm present to the the public agenda published for this meeting. It was issued without its usual period for public comment, which is ordinarily one of the very last agenda items. So we will, we will hold a period for public comment as usual. Public comment may be made at other points in the agenda as well as agenda items. So when that time comes, if members of the public want to make a comment, please click the raise hand button. If you've joined the zoom meeting is it using a telephone. You can just indicate you want to make a comment by pressing star nine on your phone. So when called on, please identify yourself by stating your full name and address and put yourself back into mute when finished speaking. So residents of the town are welcome to express their views for up to three minutes and at the discretion of the commission chair. All right, so onto the first agenda item, which are announcements if there are any to be made. I don't have any at this point. All right, anything else. Then we have guests with us for presentation about the construction of a permanent ban shell on the town common. We have guests from the business improvement district with us who have a presentation and so, then if you would promote them and then share screen or power, whatever you've arranged for the presentation. I'll, I'll, I'll Gabrielle go over here from the Amherst business improvement district and I can give a brief introduction but I'll have Gabrielle share her screen for the presentation but just to give everyone a little bit of background. And this proceeds my time with the town as well so still learning the there is a proposal to construct a permanent ban shell on the town common. And this would be funded by the Amherst business improvement district for and or the downtown Amherst foundation, which is to similar entities on profits. The proposal has been something that's been talked about over the years. There's been temporary, you know staging put up on the town common for as long as I can remember growing up in Amherst so there's and you know, I think it's a, it's a, it's a space that can certainly hold a lot of people for shows and events downtown. So we're getting to the point now where discussions have advanced about does there need to be a permanent structure there to kind of make it simpler to post these events. And which are important for the town so the bid has taken the lead in putting together plans and a design for ban shell and all that Gabrielle explain that process further. Because similar. This is a similar process of the Amherst College way finding signs, if you will, the town common is the public right of way. So it's not like its own parcel. So it kind of complicates things a little bit in terms of permitting and approvals. So the town council has jurisdiction over the public right of way. I would say the planning board, for example, has would have jurisdiction if the common world a park, for example. So the town council. Gabrielle and the bid presented the town council, this proposal, and now the, they're kind of moving through the process of discussing the proposal for the ban show with various boards and committees of the design review board has discussed this proposal. Gabrielle is here with us tonight for the historical commission and the da, the disability access advisory committee has also discussed this proposal. But I think it's important to know you know the historical commission is should have a is a very important voice when it comes to any changes that come to the town common is the most historic landscape in the town certainly. I don't think it should be taken lightly that there's a proposal to put a permanent structure on there. And so it should be, you know, looked at carefully and reviewed carefully. And whatever the discussion had tonight. I think when conversations about this proposal will that be kind of transmitted to the town council to help them make their recommendation or approval for this project so that's just a little bit of background. And I can turn it over to unless Jane has anything she would like to add but Gabrielle can then kind of give a bit more background. I think just, I'll just add that will will let Gabrielle go through her entire presentation and then just sort of keep track of the comments or questions that you have. And as that goes along and then we'll, we'll ask, we can then comment or ask Gabrielle for more information. And our, our end goal here, I think is to be able to contribute to a recommendation about it. Is that appropriately stated men. Yeah. Okay. All right. Okay, thank you. And so thanks Gabrielle for for coming. And let's let's hear about the kind of ban shell idea. Thank you. Thank you all so much for hosting us this evening. I will share my screen in a moment. I would like to just share that we presented this to the town council several months ago. We have a unanimous approval for the 12 council members that were in attendance of that meeting to move this forward. We have unanimous support from the design review board on 11 to the DAAC unanimous support for and of course this is my dog. On the 9th of November, and we wrapped the finance committee yesterday for unanimous support to move this forward to TSO who will be after you. And then TSO will decide to take all of the hopeful recommendations forward to the town council on December 6th. So, kind of background of where we are. Catherine unfortunately has or fortunately has seen all this before so Catherine if you want to zone out I totally understand it is a long presentation I will not read all of it to you but I will hit some highlights. And if I miss anything please let me know and I'll go back to the slides. So let me share screen. Here we are. Can I make this? Oh, that's better. So, the Amherst, the business improvement district you all probably know well over the years. The entity that you might not know as well as the downtown Amherst Foundation which is a foundation of 501 C3 foundation that I founded literally right before COVID. We are the one C3 status from the IRS on the data governor Baker put us into shelter in place. And in the past 18 months this has become an organization that raised close to $500,000 to keep our small businesses alive, distribute PPE and do several other things that were pandemic related. We are returning to our core mission which is to build arts and culture for the Amherst community. So we are the groups bringing you the performance show. I'm Gabrielle Gould, director of both organizations. John Kuhn is the architect and advisor on this. He's also the vice president of the downtown Amherst Foundation. And Naomi Darling and Ray Mann are the architects who were the winners of the 2018 Dan Shell contacts, which we'll touch base on in a moment that was before my time here. And this is probably the most pertinent slide to this group, the history of the South Common. I will say I'm a little nervous bringing this up in front of all of you because you are the true historians and I just found that I could with our architects and on the Google. So it is our understanding that in the 1870s, in the 1870s, Austin Dickinson brought Frederick Law Olmsted to Amherst to design Amherst College and some of his property and in his third time he also decided that he could design what we affectionately call our emerald necklace of Amherst of all of our beautiful parks, including the most recently brought to fruition Kendrick Park. And actually that we have here we feel very fortunate to have in our historic preservation are the sketches of the South Common but Frederick Law Olmsted saw the South Common being perfect for that little black spot right up there on the east side of the common is a performance show and while the South Common isn't exactly like this, that you can see that far left side is now a parking lot. We hope to bring his vision to fruition and to present a permanent performing art shell right there. Everybody who has been on the South Common knows that it is sort of a perfect amphitheater it has that wonderful bowl shape that is almost a race seating that gives incredible visuals to a stage, but it also gives a really nice amphitheater for when you have live performances there. And just to give you a little bit of the back story of this process. This was started in 2017 and during my predecessor Sarah LaCour. This was put to a charrette or a contest if you will, and it followed the Western Mass American Institute of Architects processes for architectural competitions. We were given on its seven person jury to were big board members at the time. We also had a member of the select board the planning board design review board the Historical Commission and the town planning department, and there were 15 entries in total. They were given to public comment for several. I believe it was almost posted two months they were held in public at the Jones library and the final winners were Naomi Darling and Ray came out. The architects are not only are they Amherst residents, which we're very excited about they are teachers, professors at UMass, and they are incredibly successful and remarkable and wonderful and one of the things that I have loved about working with them is they really look at their environment and they look at the community and the future and what things can be so we feel very fortunate to be working with them. And I also like to note that their work up until now has been pro bono. And they have just been tireless in their support and their work on this project. This bears relevance to your decisions tonight as you're looking at purely historic, but we do like to remind everybody what art and culture bring to a community, especially something that is free and accessible to all. So here's a small list of what the arts and cultures can bring. But I think that everybody here already is very aware of. The rendering of our performance show. This is a wood laminate. It will weather with time. It will have a treatment to it that we can easily remove graffiti or anything like that. Those are local source stones, whether it be Goshen or another source near here. And again it is 100% ADA accessible and community accessible. The original design, as you can see from the architect was based on folded sheets, origami style. Let everybody take a look at that for a moment. If you look at the red space on the ground on one of our architects standing in the middle of it, it give you give you a scope of size for the common. It is actually quite small considering the size of the common. As you can see, we have placed it very strategically, not only where Mr. Olmsted saw it going, but also to make sure that the integrity of the historic buildings of Amherst College behind it are not covered or blocked out. We have met with Amherst College, they love the location, then they are very pleased with the design. But this gives you a little bit of a actual person to size of common. These are renderings we work with one of the preeminent structural engineers and what you're seeing is the five steel fingers that will be built underneath the wooden structure and are the structural components to keeping this up and we have looked at everything from microbursts to heavy snowfall, tornadoes, wind, we've really looked at New England as a whole and have designed something that can withstand the elements. Just the renderings and the drawings of side view height, what that looks like, you can see those two trees are the current trees that are on the common, so it fits nicely in between them. So this is a structural concept again done by Stillman and we also have worked with the acoustical engineers to make sure our primary concern is that this is acoustically pristine for musicians and players on the stage, whether it be theater or music, we wanted to make sure that the elements were accurate to what you need. So it's not only that the audience can hear, but it is so that the musicians and the players can also hear each other. So, part of what you're looking at with the structural side of this is what it looks like from an acoustical point of view, and how it bounces back to the audience and to the players on the stage. This is a little bit about where we've been. It is no shock to know that our businesses have suffered greatly during the pandemic. This has been a very hard time for all of us. We are looking at opening, we are building and opening a live performance and music venue through the downtown Emma Foundation. It will be called The Drake. It will be at what is now, was formerly known as the second story of the High Horse. We are hoping to open this February or March, and we will be bringing in world music, but what we really also want to do is move into step two. This is a phased approach, which is to build and donate the performance shell to the town of Amherst with a fund for maintenance and a fund for programming. So we'd like to load this for the first couple of years with incredible programming to really show the scope of what it is capable of. And then hopefully the community takes it over and programs it as they see fit. So over the summer, if you did not attend them, we held a four Friday night summer music series. We stopped counting at around somewhere of 575 people. It was beautifully attended 70% of our attendees had local takeaway, which means our businesses hit their first time in pre pandemic numbers since the COVID struck our downtown. It was an incredible economic driver for our small businesses, and a really, really great gift to our community. And we look at this as we can rebuild, we can come back post pandemic stronger than we entered into the pandemic. We intend to fully fund this project. We intend to assist in maintaining this project. This was a conversation with the finance committee yesterday, and we intend to work with at least for the first two years, all of our arts cultural organizations as well as the college and University to program and schedule the talents. It is 100% accessible to all. And we will have sound and lighting that comes in a mobile unit so that we're not adding more structures and more permanent features to the common. And this is the evening rendering of how this would look as the sun. Which is the view that you'd be looking at from the stage is of the fun setting over the western side of South Pleasant Street. And that is the end of our presentation to. Thanks, Gabrielle. That's very informative. Any, any thoughts comments or questions from commission members. Oh, can't hear you. Sorry, had it muted. I was on the original jury. I don't think anyone else from either DRB or historical commission who served with me is still on. Not to take anything away from Naomi and Ray, but we, this was a really difficult task because we didn't feel that we had a rich source of proposals. We didn't feel there were. There were many to choose from that were really good. And we picked based on quality of design in and of itself. But there was a robust discussion among all the jury members about the fact that there was no choice that was more suited to the style of the historical environment on the common. And they were all very contemporary and Well, some were just not even feasible but there, it wasn't like we were given an array of choices to say let's let's look at things that might have been typical say under Olmsted or that would match the buildings behind it or we didn't have a whole lot of contemporary ones that we could choose more finely between them this one seemed like really the only one that really was an interesting and visually sophisticated design at the same time a lot of people felt that it wasn't viable engineering wise and I know you've had studies done, but we felt it might stay up and it might not fall down but we felt that it could be blown away could be lifted up and blown away and you said that you've looked at microbursts and everything else, which is stuff that we talked about and honestly, I feel like those need to be disseminated the details of those to really some have people who really know what they're doing look over those because I still am. I agree with most of the jury members that we felt we were giving this prize to the best entry but not necessarily thinking would that that one would ever actually be built. I just like to speak about this is an actual this is not their original design that you voted on these are the architects that you voted on, and they took that original concept and brought it to the next level, bringing in architectural integrity and structural engineers to help them rebuild it and that is why it is different from the first one you saw. Yeah, it's still based on the same folding paper the same. Yeah, I mean it's it's very similar, although I understand that they've gotten more information about the structural. And that is what what I have up on the screen right now with the original entry. Right, and it is, it has come up quite a long way from there, including as you can see the, the, I hate to use words but the bottom heavy, as you can see it and that is for acoustic acoustic and structural integrity. The gentleman out of Boston has been working with us on this on the structural and a send tech out of Cambridge has been working with us on the acoustic viability of the show. Well that's great I just thought I would report on what the jury thought at the time which was sort of picking the best of a week group and then not really knowing whether it could ever be built I mean if, if they've worked on it terribly and they've really considered all the problems engineering that's great. I don't know. I hear from you that DRB I just went off DRB so I wasn't at the last meeting, because I stopped going now but if they all like the design that's great. I'm still not entirely convinced that the general Amherst public is going to like that design on the common in the historical center of town. Robin. Thanks for that. Excuse me that context, Jan. I would echo, I think, Jan sentiment. I just came from a class where we talked about preservation districts and the risk of never innovating. And so I appreciate the need for architectural reach. But I think that and I come to the commission maybe after. I'm not sure I did not somehow is not. I don't recall this being part of our meetings before with the design in front of us. So, the incongruity is a little bit. I'm just trying to pick a word. I think what Jan said about the fact that there wasn't a broader selection by edging maybe more towards existing architecture. So, anyway, just expressing that. Thanks. Catherine. I don't know if this will help to alleviate any of Jan's concerns, but the design review board with our approval discussed having a 90 to 95% review design review before anything moves forward again so this should include maintenance engineering and just the final design so I think we're still in place we've approved this but before anything moves forward we need to have a 90 to 95% design review and then I believe and I don't want to speak out of turn Gabriel I think it was also that we were going to see a engineering report. Is that correct. I think we have to ask Marine on that we will not be moving forward further with engineering costs and design costs until we know that this is what the town of Amherst really wants to see happen we just we are at a point where we can't spend any more money on something that could just get shot down. Catherine are you saying that the concept of a ban shell was 95% or this particular design was 95% supported. It's a design before anything moves forward again our recommendation was that we would have another review design review so we'd have a 90 to 95% design review for anything else of this specific design. That was my understanding. And I did see that Marine sent something today. I have not had an opportunity to review it but this was my recollection from our previous meeting a couple weeks ago. I mean, Gabrielle are we at what phase are you right now was this the 50% or are you even is this even prior to getting 50% drawings. This is this is the design that we are presenting and would like to move forward with. And we have worked with the structural engineers and acoustic engineers to make sure that we are ready to move forward and there's a lot more steps that have to happen. But after this group, depending on how you proceed, we go to TSO and then TSO will send this to the town council for the final vote, and we will be presenting them for the second time. So, this is this is the 50% or is not the 50%. This is the 50% and probably then some. Okay. What is. So you've got you've shown us that Simon is involved, but we may not be familiar with Simon and their work. So, what is the structural acoustic or what is that. Simon is structural and please feel free to Google them everybody I am not an architect I don't pretend to be if I had Ray, John or Naomi here tonight I gave them the night off. Because they are doing so much. And, but they are considered, they are global, and they are considered some of the best structural engineers coming out of the East Coast. And so the specific group that we're working with is again out of Boston as well. And but they have offices in Europe and New York and LA etc. Okay. I'm happy to defer to Catherine I just, I'll not play there. Catherine. I did want to add to this that obviously I was not around on the design review board to see during the other designs during the selection process but I do like this design. One of my concerns had been that Amherst College would not necessarily like the design and I thought that was something that was alleviated I think Ben also added that to our packet is that correct. In terms of the actual design of the, the ban shell. Yeah. That was my understanding as well that every other conversation with Amherst College to, and to discuss the design and location of the ban show. Ben Brassard serves on both the downtown Amherst Foundation and the big board. He has been privy and brought into every step of this and he converses regularly with President Martin and the location and also the modern design is something that they are very, very happy with and 100% support of us. They were very concerned that we were going to try and present a gazebo or old style ban shell that would attempt to fit in with the Porter house or the both would, and they were really hoping that we wouldn't do that, based on especially as they are building, they are going with very modern structures and really looking at how to bring modern architecture into this next century so they really wanted to see something that was going to be considered a piece of art and sculpture for the downtown. And that's how we look at this because even if we program this 200 days of the year yet two to three hour intervals, the majority of the time it is going to be a piece of art that you'll see as you're coming up route nine and down and up north and south pleasant streets so we're really looking at this is something that is very unique to Amherst and anybody can throw up $100,000 as we both. What we're presenting to you is something that is way more artistic way more unique and very much more expensive so you know we're looking at this as something that brings Amherst forward as we're all attempting to move forward. Okay, did you want to make a comment. Yeah, not a comment I guess just a discussion point I guess if if the folks are looking for things to discuss I think I think there's some details of the plan that still might need to be worked out and maybe the historical permission can offer some suggestions on the design I think part of it is the circulation pattern of the common is changing, I guess there's trails proposed as part of the pathways I guess proposed as part of the ban shell so I don't know if Gabriel if you had a idea of like what materials that might be or how that I guess connects with the Olmstead plan but I think that's when I looked at the plan now something that stood out to me is like ban shell but also there's new trail pathways, and I just immediately jumped to what it is going to look like what are they going to be made out of where do they lead exactly and and all of that. And if those details are yet to be figured out maybe this is an opportunity for historical permission to weigh in. And second off might be trees. I, I'm not sure if the plan you're showing reflects the existing trees I feel like there are more along the boltwood area but maybe maybe if you Gabrielle if you could just comment on what's happening with any of the trees that would be good. I'll start with the trees as oh sorry. Yeah, go ahead. As you can see in the picture that you're looking at right now it fits nestled in between the existing trees. We will not be affecting any of the trees on the common that was an important piece of where we place this. Here there is this pathway. We've thought that the ADA handicapped parking spaces were here. They are not they are actually right here. Right now the soft common is completely inaccessible to anybody in a wheelchair unless they have one that can go on train. And as you well know this is a walked out path but not an actual path that's why it is remained on here because it is just something that is walked out. And then we're going to be working with the DPW Dave Gomek in the town as they design the North Common and are rebuilding the North Common. We will probably look at a path coming from these accessible spaces here that go to this space here that circuit that sort of goes from the front of the stage to the ADA ramps that go up both sides of the stage as part of the layout and the plan to make sure that it's ADA accessible to any person who wants to perform. And also get them to the graph here in a better and more manageable way. We are discussing the DPW etc. It is what the DPW and the town decide to do on the North Common that will sort of inform how what we're going to make these paths out of because we're looking at from an aerial perspective of continuity. And if anybody has seen the plan for the North Common you'll see that there are these beautiful arching paths all throughout it. We would like to continue that on to the South Common with the one path that leads to the ADA accessibility of the stage. Again this path is a worn down walking path that just has sort of become part of the common. The other thing that we're recommending to the town is that this is completely inaccessible. There is no sidewalk here. It's sort of a mud bath and ADA compliance would say that this should be an actual sidewalk and walkway for people who park along the side and would like to get anywhere in downtown. So I'd like to comment on a couple of things. One is that I accept the case that this is a piece of sculpture, a piece of art that is something new and different in design from what we think of as the historic surroundings of the Common. So it's great that Frederick Law Olmsted drew this plan for the Common but it was never implemented. He drew a lot of plans for Amherst College that were never implemented. He drew plans for the University of Massachusetts that were implemented. So there's a fair amount of Olmsted history in Amherst but the town Common actually is not one of them. So it doesn't bother me at all that there's something different from 19th century architecture that's going to go on to the Common. So I'd probably be among those that would kind of resist a gazebo look because it would be a fake. So I'm not opposed to the design. So on your last point Gabrielle about tying in with the North Common. I think it's, I think it's really important to have some continuity between the North and South Common, partly in materials, but also possibly and I don't know how I feel about this quite yet but possibly also in the kind of density or ratio of built features. Now, I don't want to clutter the South Common. So I don't see, I don't, you know, it's not, I'm not arguing for more stuff there. I do kind of wonder about increasing the circulation on the South Common. I wasn't quite clear about whether the, the path proposed from the, the Northwest corner down toward toward the shell was that was going to be removed in favor of sidewalk, leading from the handicap spaces at the east end. So would that with the, with that sweeping path remain in place, because I rather like the sweeping path. So we rather like the path as well as I held these up earlier as you can see again this would have, this is now parking lot. I mean, his original design did have a path coming from what is, I'm assuming it was still South Pleasant Street way back in the day I honestly have no idea what the roads were called back then. But, you know, he did have that path. So we did follow through with that view with ADA compliance and knowing that these right here are the handicap parking spaces. We either propose an additional sweep, you know, and even curve it so it matches on, or we could remove this one and I think that that is just something that, when we get closer to actually breaking ground and committing to this is something we could bring back to all of the powers that we have in this community. And I also wanted to mention that this, the location of this is also very specific to what the common has been used for over the past decade. Unfortunately, it's down 80% in its usage for license events. So I want to make that clear. We're losing events, we're losing interest in our downtown we're losing our vitality. This is a common that was incredibly vital and vibrant and it is getting more and more empty and it's not just COVID this was before COVID. It was down 60% is when I was hired from the past 10 years of usage. So we're looking at this and the location of this is really about the Rotary Fair. It just this compliments it. It brings a stage that they can actually bring live music to which they'd like to do. And it compliments the other events here. And by that I mean what do we have left we have the 5k run we have the music that the big produces case of Amherst is no longer an item. And we're really looking at revitalizing a central part of our downtown for the greater good. Really. There are other questions or comments. Becky. You're muted. Sorry about that. Gabriel you mentioned not not knowing whether folks would like the design. And I guess I'm, I'm thinking about how, how does opinion way into the selection I mean I remember when the designs were up at the library and we all got a chance to look at them and vote. And I think that's where they considered when the jury decided. Jen you might know but. Yeah, I'm going to let Dan step in on this and she was a drill. Yeah, we did look at the votes. A lot of them were merely pejorative comments. They weren't boats. They were people saying, you know, well, I won't quote but just really pejorative things about what people had proposed. It was really depressing. Most of it. But there were votes. A few honest for against you know where people had done all the numbers and that kind of thing. And I think the three highest ones that we had had some of the most votes. So we did consider them we had to throw a lot out is just irrelevant stuff, you know. So let's see. Invite Pat to comment if you have anything to say. Sure. I reviewed the presentation before the meeting and I, I actually have to say I hadn't seen the plans before tonight. And I was a little took a pause at the design. But what it did is it harken to me the Berlin Philharmonic where where the acoustics are are much of the cantered levered ceiling. And this brings to mind that. And, and so if we're talking about a music space a performance space, and we're talking about a vision for the present and the future and Amherst, while, while validating the past. Something that's going to promote the arts in a way that's acoustically beneficial is something that I can support. And while it seems an unusual design on the South Common, given the historic perspective of the architecture there. On the other hand, it's, it's, it's a present design and as historic commission we preserve the past, but we also want to consistently maintain the flavor of Amherst, which is, which is very much about the arts. And so I don't take exception to it. And although that thought process that I went through, I think having a space for music and the South Common I'm very much involved in the music world in the valley. And it's important to me that there be venues, but given our past 18 months or however long, COVID, the fact that we could have outdoor venues that people could be accessible for people. It would be promotion to have music and other art forms there is important to me because the town is it is known by its culture, by its schools by its architecture, but by its culture. And so music and the arts are important to me and I see this as a present day. An example of how that can be promoted best. Jan is here hand up a new. I just wanted to mention that I'm also on the US as well or on the design committee for the North Common. Jane and I both serve on that and although it's been a while before the since anything's been done I think they're ready to gear up again and that actually Gabriel will help because it is denser. You know Jane was saying we don't want to, we want them to coordinate but not over densified the South that is the more open one. The North Common has more trees, it also has a 15 foot drop from the Northwest to the southeast corner that's going to require a lot of supporting walls and you know, paths that change height and that sort of thing and then we really want to have benches. And there's going to be a seating area with tables so if a venue and the South Common has good acoustics and there's some music going on there people will be able to sit and eat up at those tables and be able to hear it, and it should be the space for different kinds of people to stand or sit grass or table or, you know, retaining wall or whatever. And it also will encourage people who want to get out of the sun to come under the trees to spread out along the double common. I think that will help a lot too. And in those terms, if we look at the design of the North Common and the kinds of tables umbrellas retaining walls benches, then the ban shell design starts to connect better it makes more sense because it has more of that kind of almost the breezy tent look that we're going to get from the umbrellas and the, you know, the more open simple furniture, if you will, that will populate the North Common. I don't have a problem with the design I mean I was one was it voted for it but I do think that you may get some feedback some flak from the town based upon the nasty comments we saw in the jury, but the voting box, and also the fact that so many would want a very conventional colonial look on the common. That's just what I was trying to get across that I'm not sure the town is going to, I mean design review board has architects on it. You know, many of us are involved in the visual arts, a lot of people in town don't have that kind of training or awareness. So it's just something to brace for if you go with this. So Jane, I have removed myself from all social media because of this and the parking garage and the comments that are just absolutely reprehensible. What always amazes me, I am now five meetings in on this subject is who the attendees are because they are never the people who are hiding behind their keyboard spreading vitriol. So I sort of have to take a step back and remember that that, you know, we do have support for this. We have 15 people ready to come on this night and speak and support. I just was hoping that all of you could get on with your evening early and go to bed. I'm sure you're all of that. But you know, there is, I have a hung frame the poster on my wall and I am going to miss quote horribly that it is the building of the town building, which I believe was built actually as a performance and it says something to the lines that you could have all the gold in the world, the best architects in the century and the artists out of Europe and no one in Amherst would agree on the design of that building. I do not enter into this lightly nor do the architects nor does the bid or the daft thinking that somehow Amherst is going to come together and actually support something like this. But I can tell you that I've had many musicians come forward and say, do I like the design. Do I love the idea that I have a place to play. Do I love the idea that children and our community from every socioeconomic background and every religious background and every ethnic background can come forward and have free art for the public. I think we can all get behind that and one of the most amazing things we saw this summer was over 700 people on the common from newborns and arms to 102 year olds in wheelchairs. Every skin color every background girls and mini sports and women in hijab worth dancing and enjoying and eating and living in our downtown Amherst and enjoying every moment of that and if that's what we can bring as a whole by building something like this and donating to the town. And if everybody hates it, tear it down in 10 years. So we should probably begin to wrap up and get on with a recommendation or how we're going to have a historical commission is going to participate in this. But I see Robin has her hand up, and perhaps yours can be the, the wrap up comment. I just wanted to make a very brief comment that that in regard to my former comments, I was not promoting a bandstand or colonial architecture, just want to go on the record for that. Noted, thank you. Specifically, what, then specifically what is our or task or action item here. So, a potential action item and it seems like we're moving in this direction could be for the historical commission to you, you know, vote to authorize, I guess myself and Jane to prepare a memo that reflects the conversation from tonight and provides a recommendation to the, I guess it would be the town council that the commission supports the project. If there are any conditions or follow up items that you would like to see. We could add that into the memo as well but I guess that would be the action item. Okay, thank you. So, I guess, one more comment about it is that this, this is the design this is the proposal that's brought to us tonight. So this is, this is what we're discussing and this is where our, where our opinions and recommendations will fall. I think probably are in a memo we can note the. We can note the comments or the range of comments. I'm a little uncertain what to do with the with the history part of it with the with the charrette and the the jury and the vote there because that's, you know, that's, that's done. But perhaps some of you have some thoughts about that. I don't think we need I was just giving that as background context I don't think it really needs to kind of our discussion I just felt people might want to know. Or how we got to that. I was representing the commission and the RV at the time so I just sort of wanted to share that but I don't think that needs to go into our motion or anything. Catherine. I just like to underscore something that we talked about in the design room board which is that I would like to put in the memo. I think it's a great way to put this is a stronger emphasis on maintenance of this structure, because I understand that it is a piece of art which I actually enjoy I I conceived of this project in this way. But I want to think about the longevity of this the sustainability of this and if we're looking at this is something for generations to come if we're the historical commission and preservation group I want to know what the maintenance plan could be this what what. I like this in the design review board so I something in the memo about that is a greater look on the maintenance of the structure, I have a couple concerns still about how this will weather. And I mean I guess that's something we will see as time we tell. If it helps anybody this whole proposal, a shovel will not go in the ground until there is a bank fund raise for it, and that is something that we spent a solid hour on and finance committee yesterday so there will be maintenance fun and there will be maintaining of the structure. Motion we could actually I it's my understanding that is the first structure ever built in the town of Amherst that will have a name and fun. Maybe we could say in our motion that we would like to also monitor the engineering and other reports that the design review board is looking at through our rep. Right, I mean, without asking a second time, but the kinds of things the DRB has already asked to see that through her we could also be apprised of as you move forward. Catherine, I'm agreeing with you Jan and I didn't mean to interrupt, but I had a question for Catherine and for Gabrielle. Is the is are the structural engineers also looking at the material, the composition of the materials from which it's built that they will weather, and that they, they will have some longevity. Yes, absolutely. I mean that is there that is their number one, the structural engineers that is their number one focus, the acoustical engineers are looking at it from a different standpoint. Of course, and I think the other concern would be that that it that it really does serve its purpose, that there be a full schedule of cultural activities centered at this location, because it's one thing to build it. There's another thing to have a vision, but there needs to be appointed artistic group that that will be be hiring and and in making a program seasonally, so that it gets used that it that its purposes for the purpose it's intended. And that is the mission and the vision of the downtown mayor foundation moving forward. So I think we'll need a, we'll need a motion that we can vote on. And we have many skilled motion conceivers here. I was just going to briefly briefly kind of summarize, I've been taking notes so like some of the sentiments I'm hearing is maintenance is important, obviously. So as they move forward, think about congruity or kind of how it relates to the North Common and making sure those those designs are cohesive together. You know, I think some of the other sentiments are, you know, just generally this support for an innovative design, if you will, that you don't think while, and that you don't think it's going to detract from the historic landscape. Would that be maybe that can be something include something like that I feel like would be this could be included. Your final comment there been about support for the innovative design that does not detract from the historic landscape I think is sort of the core of the motion that we would be. I mean, if that is in fact, what what you all think but I'm not the one that can make the motion so that's something really simple like the Historical Commission has reviewed the proposal for a permanent ban shell on the South Common and applaud its innovative design, which we do not feel will detract from the surrounding historical environment. But, and or whatever, nevertheless, whatever mixed up word you want there. We would like to monitor ongoing structural and engineering planning and maintenance. Future maintenance, longevity or something like that. Would that cover most everything. Well, that there be that there be a programming plan that there really needs to be a group that's in charge and making sure things happen there. Well the one that's bringing it to us the foundation that's what they do. So that's why I didn't put it in there. I mean that's what Gabriel is saying is this whole thing is happening because there's a foundation that's devoted to programming and we can say, you know that we'd like to see the foundation continue if this is built or something. Absolutely to ensure to ensure ongoing programming. Okay, to ensure ongoing program. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm, what I'm thinking is your first sentence Jan is it is the motion and then the other two items are conditions. Is that yeah that's true that kind of a sort of down to yeah. Okay. However, nevertheless, we say the caveat. So I second the motion. Okay, thank you. Any sort of emotion is the motion is that the historical commission, I'm using your words, Jen, applause the innovative design and do not feel like proposed ban shell detracts from historical landscape. Yeah, and then we support ongoing plans for it. Yeah. Right. I forgot what the first part of what I said was that we did it and support it and then applause design. Okay, and just to give Gabrielle some guidance do you want to set like a, like the DRB said 90% design plans that might be a good my like something that level of specific specificity might help Gabrielle plan for like when to come back to the historical commission rather than just say monitoring ongoing activities. Yeah, I mean, or we could be very specific and say through our rep to the DRB we'd like to see what they see. And then, what were the things that you, the DRB didn't bring up maintenance right Catherine or they did bring it up and I, I think Erica brought it up and I also second that it was something that was on my mind. And I just want to apologize in advance. I all of you sound like you are underwater there seems to be an unstable internet connection here and it's also making me speak unnaturally slow because I can't hear myself. I'm so sorry. But yes, I, we did bring that up and I, as I said it was something that was very important to me because I am thinking about. Well, this will be something that maybe a historical commission will think about 2030. So on years from now so I the maintenance plan is something I think is very important. I think it's the commission of your motion, like it is, it's not, it's not written as clearly as you are saying it Jen but it is I actually looked at Marines memo from this afternoon, and it says, you know, maintenance. I think it said the landscaping which is also something I brought up thinking about what Ben had said earlier and also the walkway so it's it's all folded into it it's just not as clear as what we're saying now and I think that we can we can do that. Well, let's, let's go ahead and make those points one that structural materials that go to the DRB we'd like to monitor to and that we want to emphasize ongoing maintenance and programming in the on in the process be maintained or something. Yeah, do we. I think I think that's, I think that's fine. I think anything else that we've talked about our is going to be captured as the in the record of the conversation, like the consistency with a North common that's just in the conversation that's not a condition so. Right. I think we have a motion with those two conditions to second it already so. Okay. All in favor. We'll do a, we can do that. Yeah, and I can do a roll call also Patricia off in favor. Robin Fordham. I'm going to abstain. That's okay with everyone. Catherine. Oh, yes, in favor. Becky Lockwood in favor. And Jane Wald in favor. So, so you all have a wonderful evening. Thank you. Thank you, Gabrielle. Thank you so much. Okay, I'm going to do a quick time check seven 38 we're aiming for 830. So, preservation plan update and historic resource inventory. So we have money from CPA. That I think was the interference was mostly the pandemic I think. We've gotten the existing preservation plan, the application for the update. RFPs and scope of work from a couple of other towns that look pretty good. And so our, our goal here then is to comment. Offer you comments so that we can create an RFP for, for our update. Correct. Yeah, so I'd like to, I can start putting together like a draft RFP, but I was hoping to discuss some of the details at tonight's meeting. I guess I have two, two questions is we have $25,000 for the historic resource inventory $25,000 for the preservation plan. I guess the historic resource inventory is picking up, you know, an ongoing project. And I think that it was mostly focused on outbuildings throughout the town. The CPA project. It's, it's, I think vague enough that the, that money could be used for inventorying other such buildings. So I guess I want my first question is, do we think we should get through a preservation plan update, and does that help us inform what we use what we inventory with that money, or is it or do we have enough information now about what needs to be inventory that we can just go ahead and go forth with the historic resource inventory or do you think the preservation plan has to happen first to inform the inventory? And I should say, I mean, there's no, there's going to be CPA funds every year after year. So if we use the historic resource inventory money now, we could always just get, or very likely get more in the future. So, yeah, that's, I guess, question one is kind of about how to phase the projects. I think, I think we need to do outbuildings as soon as possible. I mean, that was proposed a few years ago because we desperately needed a few years before that inventory of outbuildings particularly barns before more of them are lost. I agree with that. Particularly because CPA money will continue to be available. It can only help owners of barns who apply for CPA money if they're listed on that inventory, right, to help save them. So it's not just a matter of listing them and forgetting them. It becomes more active work to keep them if we do that. I agree with that because I think they're more endangered in a relative way. I also think the local historic districts are inventorying buildings within their districts for their various purposes. And so, for us to do the outbuildings which might not be the focus of the local historic district as well. It seems a worthy thing to do, Jen. There's a lot of inventory work to do in the existing preservation plan and and there will still be a lot of that to do in the uptake. So let's keep going. Yeah, absolutely. I think this same consultant could do both or are these, I feel like they're separate like one is, is, is kind of the, obviously inventorying outbuildings which is kind of its own set of work. One is working with the historical commission meeting with town staff, you know, researching town policies and kind of developing the preservation plan but could they be kind of, could there be a, is there a world where they're done by the same person at the same time or should they be separate projects. I think they should be separate. I think they're different skill sets. Yeah, I agree. I feel like I agree. It's probably an architect or something like that who does the resource inventory. Well, who's willing to go out into the field and they can't write right right right up a paper bag they have to be able to write the. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, that makes sense. Okay, Ben was there a consultant for the original, the 2003 2005 whatever the date is on the preservation plan. Was there a consultant for that. I was, um, yeah, Martha lion with another guy guys and Tanner associates out of native. Yeah, would they be worth going back to for an update or is there somebody who would be recommended in the present. So we this would have to be put out to bed through like a request for proposals process just that's part of public procurement. I will, we could certainly invite Martha lion to place a bid on the on the projects and but otherwise. Yeah, I guess it would be kind of open open to any consultant. But given their experience working with the town and having done the first preservation plan they might be uniquely qualified to take on the update, but it would. It requires an RFP. Yeah. So I guess some of the questions I had where. So, there's a few other towns that are undertaking or just finished a preservation plan. And their numbers were a little bit higher like I think Sudbury was 32 and Beverly was 35. And we have 25,000 granted ours is an update, as opposed to original preservation plan so I think there's a little bit less upfront work per se. Like the, they don't need to, you know, I mean to share my screen. You put them in our materials and I felt like we have a lot more foundation to work on. Yeah, I didn't see it being a problem that it was 10,000 less. Yeah, I would agree. I mean they don't, we, we don't need to recreate Amherst history. I mean, I'm sure that took a lot of work to write the 10 pages of all about Amherst history and the profile of Amherst and all that. I think there was, there was like survey work done as part of this project and a lot of, you know, interviews with town staff and public forums. And that that's in my, in my experience working with planning consultants, like some of the biggest line items are public forums and any any surveys that need to be sent out just the amount of hours that go into planning a public forum and putting out a survey. So, I think we want the preservation plan to be something that has community input and buy in. That'll certainly help in the future when we're, you know, pointing to the preservation plan as something to support a project or an initiative the more public buy in and has the easier it'll be to say, you know, the town supports. X Y or Z, something like that. So, I think it's important to have those public forums and surveys as part of the project I just worry that it could start adding up quickly but that's a lot of money. Yeah, yeah. I can even tell you what teaching one force at a university what you get. Yeah, hours that go into it that's a lot of income for the job that you could be have you can have multiple ones going at a time, you know, yeah. I think it should be plenty if nobody if somebody thinks it isn't they don't have to bid. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And where it were. And in an RFP to state the amount of funding available so they'll know kind of like what they can't go above a certain amount. And so they should do their best to describe their approach and what they're going to do for the plan. So, what will the timing be to get the RFP out in this current year or after the first of the year been what's what's deemed a better sense. Yeah, I imagine realistically probably after the new year to get to get the RFP out. It takes a lot to put it all together and then to get it into the procurement timeline, and, and then, sure, typically it's open for a few weeks and then we have to get the responses back and all that so. I'm thinking that people would be more responsive after the first of the year. They will between now and the first of the year. Yeah, yeah, certainly. So did you. Did you want any more specific comment on the RFPs that you shared with us. Or is your list of questions really the goal of what you're what you're at. You know, I mean, I guess I kind of better kind of put out some specific questions but I think there's two things there's kind of the consultant selection and evaluation criteria is an important part of the RFP like they have to know how how they're being selected. It's not just the lowest bid it's also that it's the lowest qualified bid, and we have to put forth what the qualifications are. Secondly is kind of the actual meat of the plan like when or the scope of work that we explained so you know we can be as specific as you know we want, you know, a meeting with, you know, town manager, you know, historical commission local district like, you know, we can specify exactly who they need to meet with. We want to public forums we want a survey townwide we want. You know I'm just making stuff up at this point but I guess like the scope of work could also include like a draft table of contents that we want to include. And roughly like, for example, like we already have like one of the recommendations. I think it might be good if they start with the first preservation plan and kind of provide a an overview of that plan, describe kind of what what hasn't hasn't been accomplished from then. And kind of like, you know, for example we have to historic districts now we didn't have to historic districts. When the plan was created know five. So, discussing, you know, the, you know, whether there needs to be whether there are any other districts that should be proposed. Whether there needs to be changes to the town's bylaws to better preserve Amherst history. So, I don't know I guess it might be easier as a conversation. If I put together kind of a draft and then have folks respond to it rather than just talking in the abstract, I guess so I can work on that the next time for the next meeting from December. All right, preservation plan is so many action items in it. Yeah, that part of the consultants work, maybe a lot of the work is right there for them because some things have not been accomplished and maybe their approach to it is to to advise us as to whether these are to remain the priorities. There are, you know, changes on the ground that suggest there are things that I'm missing. Okay, and then for the historic resource inventory. I haven't looked but I imagine we have RFPs ready to go from the last time we did the resource inventory so I can try to dig that up I haven't looked through the network drive quite yet but essentially I'm looking at the CBA application for this project it's 60 that 60 to 80 out of the things that have been prioritized for inventory. Essentially, you know getting through the process of developing a form B, and then submitting that to the state, the state then often acts asks for revisions and changes so kind of just working through that whole process and then adding them to the towns. Yeah, but the town's GIS system does a good job of tracking historic resources so adding those resources to the town. Mapping as well. And yeah, hopefully, yeah by next meeting I can try to also have a draft of that as well. I'd love to get this get both of these did in the winter and then be ready to go for the spring. So, yeah, then what was next on the agenda is there's any other comments. I'm sorry, other comments on on this agenda items for preservation plan and resources. I think it's a good plan then for you to put together the RFP. Maybe, maybe review it with us in case we have any, any thoughts about it, but to get it out sometime after the first of the year. And probably the same is true of the inventory RFP. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Okay, next is updates on the less cemetery that's the restoration. And did you have your hand up. Oh, we do have a hand. No, sorry, I don't know. We have a hand up in the attendees. Okay, let's see. Build a green bomb. Like to say something on this topic. Yes, I did because I've been following all of the new zoning things. Well, it's had to follow them because they keep changing every time there's a meeting. And they keep having to have multiple hearings on them and so nobody really knows what the status is. So one of the, the items is the item to make apartments in the residential village center by right. And the three residential village centers happen to be Pomeroy lane, the East street common and the north there was common up here, and we are some of us who have been following it very carefully. And I think that maybe you guys haven't been totally informed about the impact that could have on the North Amherst to store district. So we've had also about sit APR farmland, which was also imperiled on meadow street so we've got the North Amherst common more or less south of meadow street and meadow street itself that at this point seemed to be pretty imperiled. I think pine street may be safe from apartments, because most of that land is preserved. It's not enough place to put it, but meadow street itself there are enough lots that could be combined there that this could be really a disaster for what were at one point, really nice little factory village houses along that street even though it's gone to ruin over the last few years. But I just wanted to bring that up in terms of your preservation planning. Were you aware that these zoning changes are probably going to be pushed through before during this lame duck session before the new council takes its commission in January and that the East Street common particularly and the North Amherst common are subject to apartments by right and and the buildings torn down because there really isn't enough cloud and in your demolition delay to save things more than a year. If somebody's going to make more money by tearing them down. So I just want to bring that up because I wasn't sure whether you know what was going on or not. Okay, thank you Hilda for bringing that to our attention. And then we'll certainly try to educate ourselves about it. So thank you. Let's see so we were beginning to talk about the West Cemetery restoration update. Yeah so I just want to put that in there as a reminder that the art the bids for that project are still open they'll be due back on the 23rd so six days from now on Tuesday of next week so we should have a it's similar to the process to what I just described it's the lowest qualified bidder so we included a set of qualifications that are required at a minimum. So let's go first and then see who the lowest bidder is for the project and yeah so I hope to very soon have a contract signed for that and $100,000 worth of headstones restored in my cemetery. There's about 75 in the 1870 section and about 15 of the most problematic headstones in the in the African American section that are in urgent need of repair. So yeah, just wanted to give you a short update on that. It's good news. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, so updates on the bylaw for bylaw we've been working for preservation of historically significant structures. Where is, what's it looking like in the schedule schedule of town bodies. So, as Hilda alluded to there are a lot of zoning bylaws moving through the process right now so I had been told, and I told you guys this months ago kind of the demo delay bylaws in, in, in the queue if you will, it's getting closer. I think it's tough because town council, the new town council won't take their seats until the after the new year. And so we can. I think, perhaps in December we could talk with the planning board, because the planning board doesn't change with the new year, but it doesn't make sense to talk with the town council until they've, the new members have taken their seats. And that also meet trickles down to the various committees of the town council, who likely those members will change between now and the new year. So, Chris Brestrup the planning director did let me know there's a good chance. We, the, we could discuss the bylaw with the planning board at one of their December meetings and that would be an opportunity just to get some initial feedback on the proposal. And kind of give us a sense of whether it's ready to move forward or whether there needs to be more kind of more changes made to it. Obviously it's been a long process and it's just kind of the timing the way it worked out, but there's just a lot of a flurry of zoning activities kind of as the pandemic. And I think we've subsided a bit because previously we had been so focused on getting through the pandemic and as that winded down or winding down zoning became a priority. And so the demo delay bylaw kind of had to fit into the into the queue so. I'm going to present it to the planning board because the PowerPoint that you gave me that I worked with for our presentation to the council with your presentation to the planning board. Yeah, no, yeah, you're correct. So the I have presented the planning board. Definitely the the one time I did it was like 1030 at night and that everyone was tired and it was just I just felt like it wasn't really productive conversation. It was after like three discussing to other zoning bylaws changes and I think Chris and I felt that it would be better to do that a later date when early in the meeting, preferably. I wonder about it again though is was it an inconclusive response from them. I felt like. Yeah, it was. I think one that one member had a number of questions and I think she transmitted those to us. But otherwise it was. There wasn't much feedback one way or another. Was that before we had gotten this far with the revision or this, this particular text that we have tonight was pretty. Yeah, I think it was pretty close to what we have now. Yeah. I tried to, it's a complicated bylaw from for someone from the outside to fully grasp quickly. So I tried to kind of synthesize it down to the essence of the changes that we were making like, you know, even more. Yeah, yeah, so I really, I really just give them the shortest possible version so they don't go like, oh, not that again. No, I think you did a good job of really narrowing down the presentation. So, and I mentioned this before but it would be, if I can nail down that date in December with the planning board with some certainty. It would be great if members of the commission wanted to join I think Jane and Jan and volunteer to do part of the presentation. And we were younger. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we've both broken something since then so. So I will keep you in the loop. Yeah. What nights of week do they meet the same night of the week. Yeah they meet on Wednesday. Yeah, they're meeting right now. Again in this, in this version that you've sent us for this meeting there are I think just maybe three places where there's still highlights. Are those have have we settled on that language or are they still highlighted because we have questions. Sorry, I'm just trying to bring it up. Now, did I put it in the packet. Oh, there it is. Yeah. So, yeah, what I had in here were changes, I guess I made in September, after we spoke to the town attorney, and he gave the bylaw a positive review but had a few suggestions. And we, at one point we decided to scrap the word structure and just use the word building throughout. But then we also talked about using wanting the bylaw to also to apply to architectural features that that could include porches fences, you know stone walls that that level of detail as well. Which our town attorney thought was reasonable and something other communities do, but he wanted us to include the word structure as a defined word down here. Because that does include, you know, something like a porch or a fence or something like that is better defined as a structure but then, you know, essentially saying that the word building also includes the definition of the word structure, and that way we can just use the word building throughout the Bible. Sorry, I know that was a little confusing. But that's how he felt it would be best to be done. Okay, now that's a good. Thank you for that. And so this definition of structure. The last three words remind me of the kind of crazy definition of structure that was in the original bylaw. But is this is this. Where does this definition come from this came from the last bylaw. Yeah. Okay. I'm always by wheels, not including wheels. So maybe that's a thing. Yeah, I guess it's like an RV that's parked there permanently. My image is always just some kind of giant tricycle. It's like those tiny houses that are actually on wheels. Yeah. Where do they fall. I'm wonderful 90th century gypsy caravan we discovered in the woods we'd want that to be included. So, three words off. We could just take the wheels off whatever it is. But if we take the three words out we wouldn't have to go to that. Yeah, just depends on where you want to take the wheels off. But if it has wheels, they're on the ground. So, I think you'd have trouble arguing that something with the wheels was permanently effects, but I just came out of a historic preservation law class. You're absolutely right, Robin, I was just joking around that. No, I know I was too. So this is, this is great. We've got a, we've got a draft bylaw. So finalists to either place changes. He's still got this one other place the 14 day thing. Yeah, that was added after I spoke with the attorney. I think that's part of the. I think we just we just didn't have anything in there about when we have to file decision with the town clerk, which is pretty standard so. I mean, we usually have within 14 days of the close of the public hearing so generous, I mean, we usually have you tell him the next morning. Yeah, well, I'm filing it now now with the process of creating this demolition authorization. You know, it's just, you know, 14 days. Yeah, it can definitely be done but it involves creating the form filling it out, getting it down to the town clerk's office, anything at all that. So, they will be notified immediately, but the official decision, probably the town clerk will have 14 days to do that. 14 calendar days because somewhere else in there we defined days as business days. And I see that with it 45 days before application that must also be calendar days. Yeah, so the town's general bylaw uses calendar days exclusively. So the definition for count for day up at the top maybe we should have a definition for days that it's calendar day not business day. The town's general bylaw does at the entire thing but. We're separating from that right. We'll be okay. Yeah, this is as long as we're consistent throughout because I thought there was one place we did have business days so we should. I'll double check but I am pretty sure I went through and remove the business. Okay, so I just know it has been in here for as long as I can remember but I need to find, I need to find where the general bylaw discusses penalties. And they have a specific reference so I will change that reference. Okay. And we'll have a clean copy. Yes, yeah. Super. Great. All right, then we have any unanticipated items. There are any. Good enough. Yeah. We have a meeting date. Well, we have one more thing. And that is. We need to offer public comment. Okay. Yeah. So, I guess I did have one on the anticipated item and just, I guess, if I can act as the liaison from the localist historic district commission. The commit the local historic district commission is currently reviewing a project for the construction of a townhouse development. It's called Sunset and fearing street. So it's across the street from Southwest dormitories and across the street across sunset avenue from what's called the creamery building it's like a brick building that used to have sunset pizza in there so it's at that corner. So we have two mid 20th century homes that are proposed to be demolished as part of that project demolished or relocated. This is a Barry Roberts project so he's intent on relocating the homes. So it will come before the historical commission, probably in one or two months, but it's going to go through the local historic district first to kind of get approval for the relocation and or demolition of the homes and for the approval of the subsequent construction if they, if they choose to. So, I guess I just wanted to give you a little bit you know their public hearings they're posted on the town's calendar the first public hearing was continued until this until December 6, because they hadn't. They wanted to see some changes made to the site plan for the townhouse project to kind of better fit with the historic character of the neighborhood. So, yes, just wanted to provide the houses it doesn't concern us because the houses are new. No, they do concern historical commission, they will need to file a demolition application. But I think they want to get through the local historic district process first, and then come to the historical commission it's. It's 1923 and 1943, I think for the homes but they do. Yeah. And they actually came before us a couple months ago just to give us a heads up that this was proposed. Remember that. Yeah, they did see a visual to remember. Um, and so demolition isn't considered an applicability and I guess I don't quite understand how the local historic district. No, they, they can, they can say no to demolition. Okay. They can say no and then but if they say yes we can also say no. Yes, so. I'm just trying to understand how it works. No, it's a good question. They, they could approve the demolition. And I think the historical permission to put still put a one year delay on on the demolition. They would speak to the appropriateness of the plan, the new architecture. Yeah, but the approved the demolition is also an issue of appropriateness. So, of course. So they can, they're, if they. If they did not approve demolition, then that's effectively stopping the project. There is better. Yeah, no, before us, so then it wouldn't come to us. Right. Yeah. Correct. Okay. So if you're interested, you can go to the local historic district website on the town's page and go to the packets. And the information will be in there for the, I guess they just met on Monday. So it's the November 15th meeting where there's some visuals in there. And then again, the meeting was continued till December 6th. So that is my unanticipated item. I guess this is an excuse I could use unanticipated items as an excuse to thank Ben for planning the writer's walk launch. And it was very nicely attended and thank Jan for leading the leading the unveiling and providing so much great information about the process. And thanks all who came to support it. So I second Jane, it was well executed Ben and January marks were wonderful. To the point, you know, captured captured the spirit of walk. And it was fairly well attended given, given everything. It was a nice day. Yeah. I've handed out lots of the cards to a lot of people who want to do the walk. Yeah. I didn't see the full article because it has a paywall, but I saw a headline in the Boston globe that. Yeah. They misquoted me again. Yeah, it goes on and on. I mean, we are now committed through misquotes to doing two more walks. Led by you. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody want to head on, feel free. Well, anyway, it was very, it was very nice. And so the walk is launched. It was fun. Yeah, I'm very happy. Now if we get the bylaws done, gosh, I don't know what to do. Easy. So let me ask Hilda as the only non-panelist. If she would like to make a public comment. Yeah, I have a question for you. Since I'm writing this up for the in the. Org. And I haven't done it in a while. You've got two new members. And if someday. Each of them might be willing to write me a couple of sentences at green mom. You mass. I would like to write something in my article about what the two new members can contribute to the commission. If they would be willing to do that. Like tomorrow morning. Or before you go to bed tonight, in other words. Well, I won't send it in right away tomorrow sometime tomorrow. I'll wait, I'll wait for it until somebody says give up, lady. I think they did. I think Catherine and Becky did submit short little bios as part of the. Yeah. So send it to me, Ben, if you got it. I think I can find that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Great. Better for. I think it might be nice when there are new people and every, everybody's locked at home to enter a chain for the, for the sake of transparency. And I think it's a good idea. I think it's a good idea. I think it's a good idea. And government to say who the no, no, no members are. And what they do. Thank you. I appreciate that. Okay. So. A next meeting date. Well, we don't want to do it on Wednesday again. Right. Because of the possibility of planning board. In December. Yeah. They're meeting today. So that's nice. So they need every two weeks. I guess they're meeting on the first. And then probably the 15. So maybe we should avoid. So 15th would have been our date. So maybe. The eighth. I can't do the eighth. I was reserved. It was reserving the 15th, but I cannot do the eighth. 20 seconds off or close to Christmas. How bad. The. The 14th or the 16th. Well, the seventh or the ninth. The seventh or the ninth. During, during that week. 13th. Maybe. I could do the 13th. Jane. Catherine. Is that a Monday? I could do the 13th. Yeah. I'm going to. Quickly. Check out my. Schedule. I just might have to get back to you on it. I have a lot of. Night meetings. What about the ninth or the 16th? Is that work? I'm sorry. What? The ninth or the 16th. It's a Thursday. Do the 16th. Okay. Maybe the ninth. I'll be brain. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to quickly check out my schedule. I just might have to get back to you on it. I have a lot of. Night meetings. I'll be brain. The ninth is challenging for me. I'm usually driving on Thursday nights. Yeah. Yeah. To send a doodle. Ben. So is the seventh, the Tuesday of that week. Well, same problem. Just as this would start. Okay. I could do the 16th. I would have looked at right now, but all of those other nights are already booked for me. I had a Wednesday. Yeah. Wow. I can see what I can move. I had my December is disgusting. Just to be transparent, but you, if, you know, obviously. I, I actually. I am out of town the 20th. I think doodle. Yeah. Okay. And I'll confirm the. I mean, honestly, it could be. We could just wait until January to talk to the planning board and. Have our. Meeting on the 15th. As well. How much, how crucial, how much more crucial is it that we meet than that? We. Talk to the planning board in time. I mean, do we need a meeting desperately in December? Maybe we should just wait until January. Yeah. I mean, I could. Once I have the RFPs developed, I could send those out for comment. The email. Yeah. We just have to be careful that, you know, it would have to be comments directed back to me rather than within the group. As a public meeting stuff. Is our major thing that we're moving on right now is trying to get the bylaws finished. And. Yeah. If we can move that forward with the planning board, that's a major agenda item. Yeah. Much else. You know, unless something comes up from outside. Yeah. I haven't heard of any demo projects coming. In the near future. The sunset hearing project is probably a few months out from a. Okay. Delay hearing. All right. Let's wait till January. Works for me. Okay. Yeah. Anything else. That's good. In January. Yeah. Catherine do things slow down for you in January at home. I mean, nothing ever slows down. But I, I, if we have our regular meeting date that I can accommodate for that. It's just. December is fully booked. Basically. I don't have a lot of wiggle them, but I can try. We've been trying to do the third Wednesday. So maybe, you know, if we go, go back to that. And we've been pretty, pretty good about keeping to that. It's just. Yeah. Since we aren't meeting in December, maybe meet on like the second Wednesday, just to be a little closer and stuff comes up. I don't know. Yeah. Sure. That'd be the 12th. I'm okay with that. Okay. I could, I could meet the 12. It's a short month. So, because there's only four Wednesdays instead of five. So. Okay. We've got a solution. So we. I guess we just have to hang out for five more minutes. Or. We adjourned. Okay. Good night, everybody. Bye. All right. Thanks everyone. Thank you so much. Happy. Thanks. Travels, everybody. Happy Thanksgiving.