 Welcome back to the next episode of The Therapy Show Behind Closed Doors with Bob Cook and myself Jackie Jones and this is part two of the one that we started last week which was part one on running therapy groups and this one is about the styles of running therapy groups, the different styles that we can use in that because we felt like there was a bit too much information in last week so we decided to split it over to you. Yeah and thank you very much for allowing me to have the opportunity to talk about my many years of experience of running psychotherapy groups and the different types of psychotherapy groups and what I'd like to concentrate specifically in this and in said video with podcast is I'd like to talk about what a process group is. Yeah a hybrid individual group which I talked about last podcast and the group I ran for so many years which was basically a hybrid one which is where the individual becomes the star in the group not the people in the group. Yeah and there's a huge difference. Yeah I think the one that I did was a hybrid you know. Yeah absolutely. So here we go then a process group and there's different types of process groups so pass or lead a third podcast. Wait loosely loosely a process group is one where the leader of the group is trained and will facilitate the group as a process in other words it's not going to be an individual that is the star of the therapy group the curative factor will be the process of the group. Okay. Is that clear? In other words the issues that the individuals bring into the group collectively so it's a we and not an I it's co-constructed co-created rather than an individual process so the leader will be concentrating on the different factors of the group and the themes of the group the system of the group rather than an individual process. Okay so one person brings a topic and then everybody discusses that theme or topic is that what you mean? Okay this is why I said there's different styles of running a group but in general in general it's about processing whatever happens collectively in the group. Okay so for example you know if you were trained in group dynamics and trained in running a psychotherapy group in the way that I'm talking you might well start the group this way once you've sorted out whether it's one hour whether it's two hours whether it's three hours how many people in the group a group contract when you've sorted all those admin things out even such as for example is it for 10 weeks and is it for 20 weeks is it for ongoing when you've sorted all that stuff out a group dynamic process facilitator might walk into the group and say something like this okay so we have two hours now over to you. Wow just like we are now or you are if you could see it you can see Jackie's face but exactly a long long time ago a long time ago before I became a psychotherapist probably 32 33 I was I was interested very much in learning about myself a little bit more that doesn't mean I'd gone into therapy because I hadn't so I must have been 32 and I did a I did a 10 week course what is called the extra mule part of Manchester University I don't know if still call the extra mule part this is God this is 45 years ago 40 years ago whatever yeah 40 years ago and it was called I think group dynamic a taste of group dynamics or something like that and I can't remember what the actual taste was it was for two hours or was it an hour and a half and that's exactly what happened what I'm saying now and the person basically said what I've just said and then shut up I think it was for an hour actually and then just was quiet and whatever people bought people bought now I knew nothing about psychotherapy I was a virgin to all of it I was learning about myself so I found it intellectually interesting I found it I was pretty stunted emotionally and various other things looking back on it now I thought it was very extremely and only from where I am now I thought it was quite unprotective yeah it wasn't deemed a therapy group it was deemed a taste of group dynamics I think so it's a completely different process and people stayed or didn't stay or left out but what I didn't think happened you know there wasn't a sort of teaching really about what it was all about yeah and in many ways I think there was missing things for it but why I'm bringing this up is that if you've started going to therapy group which is a one process style it could be by group dynamic therapist it could be very similar in the sense that okay the contract might have been worked out before the group contract the structure of the time I've been it could be very similar where the person just says over to you now different from what happened with me 45 years ago which was a taste of group dynamics I think in a further education university if you're trained as being a therapist it's up to the therapist then to come in whereas this person 42 years ago I'm talking about never came at all because it hadn't got a therapeutic nature even though I think it was therapeutic in some senses but anyway won't go down that road so the person who's been trained in group dynamics will come in yeah okay good sort of like shape the way the process might be going yeah so there's the structure to it it's not just like a free for all when you you're going in this there is some structure yeah definitely okay so now I've just said that on there I'm going to go to another type of process group which I got trained in so I did transaction analysis training group training and for all those years I've told you about there while I was 65 64 I run in a hybrid style towards the end of my running good life if you like I've got trained in what I'm going to talk about now relational group process so I'm adding the word relational in front of it yeah and in fact whether it's the couple of months time wherever it is I'm going to be running a relational group process at a conference and teaching of it I anyway I learned got trained in this I was still running groups hybrid way and I didn't change it if I was to come out retirement now at 72 and run a psychotherapy group I'd run a relational group process I actually think it's harder to run okay needs a lot of training and experience now people this and this might disagree and that's fine I don't want to minimize um how the training or how uh some how difficulties or whichever way we're going to talk about this hybrid group therapy is but I do want to say running relational group process no needs training but needs skill and I think person needs to be trained uh quite deeply in this and perhaps move up from individual therapy to you know get trained to be able to run groups in this way so let's just talk about relational group process so if I stepped out from retirement now to do it I would take eight people I'll probably have two hours I'll probably get a contract for what that is a group group relational process and then what comes out of it uh you know I will make sure that I am involved potent and provide psychological protection in the group uh and we can debrief after it yeah and I out of the two hours I probably do maybe an hour and a half while I'd have the actual group process and then I debrief from it I think that's the way I do it okay so the relational group process number one is in us and it's not an I okay so it's always us it's always built on co-creating co-creation construction and a relational whole and it's putting respect, phenomenological enquiries, the methodology, involvement, potency and a collective experience at the height of the one and a half hours process so I'd probably start it by giving some educational principles out now if I was running it regularly I'm not going to say the same principles every week obviously but if I was to start one at the beginning I would talk about the importance of collective collectiveness the importance of transparency the importance of genuineness the importance of speaking and taking ownership of the I in other words if you are going to speak in the group that you need to talk from your own experience and not speak for someone else because it's your experience and not somebody else's if you're going to challenge somebody you would do it respectively from when I'm okay you are okay position and I would talk about these sort of principles and I'd talk about normalization and I'd talk about the idea that if you trace back what any of these issues are about in context they will all have meaning and that you know normalization is part of the process where I will have made meaning of what might seem a crazy situation as normal in the context where those issues came from so I would I would accept principles for the group yeah like I'm talking about now I'll start the group say over to you but I would also be really important to involve myself in the relational group process so if people if some people were drawn I might well say when there was the right time for example I noticed that you're quite what's drawn in the group would you mind you know is it okay for you just to um let us know what's happening internally as you as you're so as you know what's happening internally from that withdrawn place so I would you know be aware a bit like a symphony it goes up and down and there's a balance of crescendos and different things so I would be always aware of the balance in the group and so if one person's going to challenge another group I will make sure there's a time for eternal experience and ownership of what's happening yeah thinking of relational needs in the group that may or may not be met and then I would involve myself in saying maybe looking at how the past has been played out in this relational group process and what different coping mechanisms they might want in a different scenario or whatever it is so I would in other words I would be playing an active role in involving myself in the success in the success of a relational group process okay so everybody would hopefully have time to express their internal world what's happening internally in an external protective collective group yeah so when you start off and you say over to you then one person would say well actually this week um I've had a bit of a conflict with my husband they came on from work and this happened and that happened and then the other people would join in with their experience of it yeah if that actually happened I'll go on through this yeah so you said all that I would then say oh unless you've had a difficult time and as I hear you're sharing some of this internal process what would you like from the group as she shared okay comes in and says you know when you said that I felt a real hanging my heart because I've had I really I really have some identification with that and xxx and then I might then keep with the person who said what they said that they've had a hard week and say oh as this person says this what's the impact of their care or whatever it is on your yourself right yeah and encourage that person to say something back and then encourage that person to say something back and then if somebody else wants to come in they might want to come in yep yeah starting to think of how the past gets presented collectively in the group and what the group or individual members of the group how they respond in an empathic way or not yeah because not everybody's going to react in an empathic way and I was taking notes and one of the things that you said was respectfully challenge so it's not like everybody has to be in total agreement with what people are saying it's about respectfully challenging so somebody might say for example oh you know when you said you had a really hard day and everything I also see that you were laughing there and that really jolted me because that seems a willing conch once between the laughter and the real drudgery of the day and I was wondering what that meant for you and for me it meant that I couldn't I found it hard to take you seriously yeah I can see it being quite a powerful experience to be part of of that oh yeah because we do it naturally well us women tend to do it naturally where we we ask for other people's opinion do you know what I mean if we've got an issue we often tend to talk about it with different groups of people you know I were friends I will work colleagues I were families whatever it is so I suppose it's just a similar way of exploring that but in a safer therapeutic environment rather than just getting a load of random people's opinion on whatever is going on in your life at the moment well I think there's something specifically healing about energy a collective energy of a group yeah I think that's the dimension I really want to say and the other thing is the word relational is really important here I think there's a healing thing to a group if it's led in the right way that's why I started I think that's the key to it is that there is somebody at the helm it's like social media you know Facebook groups that say that it's a support group but there's nobody actually leading the way and it just ends up a bitchfest or something 100 correct the that's why I said at the beginning that the the therapist of this type of group yeah trained needs to be active and very proactive and involving themselves absolutely the protection of the members of the group yeah yeah so you touched on it with this and I'm kind of interested in this but were you are you saying that you're doing a training course on this no I did one I did an integrative psychopath for 11 years Richard Erskine and then in that training there was a whole training on relational groups therapy now we're now into I don't know I'm 60 now I didn't want to change my groups which have been running for a long time in a completely different style when I look back at my career and sometimes I wish I had because I think I do see the power of Goulding's individual hybrid groups but I really like the healing energy of a collective group yeah different way yeah I'm just I think I'm just curious because at the moment I'm seeing a lot of couples in therapy and I can see how this potentially is quite healing you know for the individuals to be in a group setting to be able to talk and learning about relationships different relationships the relationship we have with ourselves as well as the relationships that we have with other people and how they can impact on us so yeah I can see it being really useful it is and and you might start with a theme of these types of groups you could start with a theme you can say well what I'd like to perhaps have a theme of this you know relational group where it would be the concept of shame and we come from a history where shame you know we often feel shame based on the teaching style in the western world is often we carry a lot of our shame with us and I was wondering who would like to start yeah so we could have themes to the each relational group process I'm not going to bring a theme in when I do this relational group enquiry and teach of it I'm just going to start I'll start with the principles like I have now and then I'll just say over to you but I do know that in terms of protectiveness I have a very involved and protective involving a proactive style I think it's really important in this that the therapist also is relational you know it's like it's your part all of you including the therapist is part of a relational whole and the therapist is the leader in many ways like the or you know the leader of an orchestra yeah the conductor yeah if you like and that's why I said it takes quite a bit of training yeah yeah it's not easy you don't just get collecting people to do you know this is a this is a this needs experience therapist I think really yeah and I've been part of these groups and I understand the power of them and I think you're the really did hit the nail on the head and that the success of relational group processes oh the success of the early ones from the other podcast I talked to more individual style it's the therapist the power and potency of the therapist yeah so when you're saying an experienced therapist needs to do this what what kind of experience are you talking the amount of time that they've been a therapist or the training that they've had or does it does it both both okay definitely yeah that experience individually on the clinical level and I think they need also to have training and when a relational group process and I think they need to try it perhaps in the training first where they got some practice yeah it's also a different way of thinking it's not an eye it's not of them and us it's a whole yeah a relational whole where respect where transparency whether an encouragement on taking ownership of the self are all be requisites yeah I like this oh yeah I think it's I was trained by Richard Erskine in this and if people want to look at a very good article on relational group process in the way that I'm talking about here go to his website which is all one world I'm going to give all one word integrative psychotherapy.com go to his website which is Erskine's website press on the left hand side articles and I've put pop about 50 articles and I think it's the number eight the ninth down is called something like a relational group process and it's a very good article on the principles behind what I'm talking about and read it several times the philosophy is very important in terms of the integrative whole I'm talking about but I think it would be something enlightening people might find and they might like that way of doing groups and some of the principles and the discussions and the ideas are very enlightening I think. I'm going to go and read that article Bob because I'm really interested in you've you've tweaked my interest. It's a it's an important one and I like talking about it and also I'll be doing it shortly myself and I was thinking as I was talking to you know maybe I could have started this early in my career I thought I was of I know I was a very good individual sorry just backtrack a bit but when you're saying you're saying I'm going to be starting this myself in a bit what are you talking about starting. Oh sorry is that what I said I didn't mean to say I'm going to be running this group with a conference soon. Right okay what can people find out about that? Oh well that's closed now it's on the Richard Erskine website because he runs the International Integrative Psychotherapy Association and they have a really big biannual conference which is in Bilbo later in June sometime I can't remember the day I'm going to now I think it's June the 20th I don't know June the 12th or something like that so and the conference is full but it's run every two years so you know it's a good thing. I have done a relation I think I don't know how many years ago it was and it was one of his conferences so it may have been it was way before the pandemic I ran a group of probably eight people in a relational group inquiry and taught off it and that was very successful so it's a very powerful way of doing group therapy yeah in my opinion. Yeah I can see that I quite like the style of that I quite like it yeah I will definitely go and have a look at that article as well. Absolutely and people listening to this I hope you found it interesting it took my thoughts about relational group process and please go back to the previous podcast we did last week which explains the individual style group therapy that I talked about and all the different classifications and different styles of psychotherapy group because I certainly don't want the listeners to get caught up thinking there's only one style because there's many you might have been trained in many different modalities and many different ways to do those groups and that's fine that's completely fine because I'm a real fan of difference rather than right and wrong. Yeah yeah and it's a valid point that if people have just caught this episode they won't know that this is part two of a two-parter yeah which we added on because there was so much information but I think it's a really good topic that you know it's not just individual therapy that you know there are group therapies that you can get supporting under them one different ways and we're just exploring some of them. Yeah and it's really interesting because things go into circles and waves and goodness knows well when I first started in my training transaction analysis in 1985 psychotherapy groups were the vogue of the day and I would say the late 1980s and all through the 1990s beginning of the 2000s in Manchester this is where I'm doing the podcast from was very very vogue for group psychotherapy and maybe also in the country and certainly in the transaction analysis movement we go forward now to 2023 and in Manchester in the transaction analysis community I don't I perhaps know two or three groups wow so individualism and individual therapy has taken prime permission and I wonder what that says about the culture in 2023 and the rising we need to make a shift Bob maybe we need to be introducing groups I can see where there is a big need for groups yeah definitely all those wonderful things I just talked about so it's his interest in 2023 especially in transaction analysis community I don't hardly know any groups we need a resurgence of groups Bob you need to get back in training I'll sign up I'll be the first one it's start again yes right okay until next week so we'll probably do the the tissues and teas in the therapy process next time is that what it's called well that we kind of put that one off and decided to do part two IIT and tissues in the psychotherapy room and the importance and understanding of the dynamics oh absolutely that'll be a great podcast yeah so that's what we'll be doing next week so until next time Bob thank you so much I've thoroughly enjoyed these last two episodes guys and lovely to have the opportunity to talk about the different styles and purpose and structure and admin of groups brilliant see you next time yes bye bye you've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast we hope you enjoyed the show don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review we'll be back next week with another episode