 On June 29th, Rahul Gandhi tried to drive down the highway from Impal to Chirchankpur before being stopped by Manipur police at Bishnupur. The day before, new slick took the same route. It was a quiet day and an uneventful drive. On both sides of the highway though, there was evidence of destruction, indicative of the scale of the conflict that began on May 3rd in Manipur. Soon after crossing Thormung, we arrived at the Anglo-Cookie Centenary Gate at Lysanga, a site that comes up often in the chronology of the violence. Bunkers previously manned by armed civilian volunteers on both sides have been dismantled to an extent. Central armed forces, paramilitary and army now man several checkpoints along the route. In town there has been a re-christening. LAMKA, the old name for the settlement that is currently a district headquarters, has taken hold. The mention of Chirchankpur has been virtually removed from road signs, establishments and institutions. This is an utterance of long-standing tribal opposition to the name itself, on both geographic and historical grounds. A majority tribal district with a population of about four lakh based on Aadhaar data. This is the de facto capital on this side of the border. Young men walk around in t-shirts proclaiming tribal unity. Markets are open only three days a week and it seems that every resident is mobilized and playing a part in the movement, either engaged in defence, humanitarian relief, political discourse and media outreach. The Indigenous Tribal Leaders Forum has emerged as the coordinating body for the movement in LAMKA. As an opener for news click coverage from the area, we spoke to Ginza Walsong, who heads the forum's media cell. Ginza, thanks for talking to news click. First up because it is today, I guess the big story, we're expecting a possible resignation from the Chief Minister of Manipur and Biren Singh. Does this possibility, whether it happens today or somewhere down the road, open up room for conversation, for dialogue to begin between your organizations and we'll get to how the cookie side is organized of course in a bit. But does it open up the possibility of conversations and dialogue happening towards a solution a way forward? Whether the Chief Minister and Biren Singh resign or not, our organization ITLF has decided not to talk to the state government. We will only talk to the central government because we do not have any more trust in the state government, whether it's being led by the Biren Singh or not. But given how much of a role and Biren Singh has had in the events that have followed from the 3rd of May onwards, does it at least give a sense of hope or a sense of possibility that there is some kind of positive engagement possible in the future? I don't think so because it's not only Biren Singh's idea, the entire thing is of the Maytee communities because if we look at what the Maytee Lipun leader talked about wiping off the entire cookie population and also the civil organization called Kokomi who declared war against the cookie community. So it's not only just about Biren Singh's government, it's all about the Maytee community. So it's all about ethnic, you know, Biren Singh. So whether the Chief Minister and Biren Singh is replaced or not, I think the Maytee agenda will remain the same. So okay, with that having been settled, we'll go back a little bit to talking about how the cookie are organized, because one thing that we have seen in our time here as well as traveling to Kangpok Pee and other areas is that there is a level of organization and mobilization in society at large, whether it's men or women or children even. Everyone is participating in some way in helping those who have been affected by the conflict or in some way shape or form like yourselves who are engaged in the political side of things. So tell us a bit about how you are organized and at this point is the ITLF to be considered the organization that is sort of leading the movement of the cookie people? Right. ITLF is basically for Chulal Chanpur district. It was made for Chulal Chanpur district. The tribe leaders who are in Chulal Chanpur come together and form this indigenous tribal leaders forum, basically for Chulal Chanpur district. However, the epicenter, the current issue started from Chulal Chanpur district only. So whether ITLF like it or not has to take up the movement. That's why ITLF became the leader or the ITLF spearhead this current movement. So right now we are, ITLF is leading the movement. At the same time people in other district like Kampukpe, Chandel, Technopal, they are also facing the same kind of issue that we are facing here. Although the issue started in Chulal Chanpur. So since we are not prepared for this movement as it just come out of the blue, we are not prepared. So we did not have time to constitute ITLF in other districts. That's why it's only in Chulal Chanpur district as of now. So in Kampukpe, there is an organization called KOTU. In More, this organization called HTC, which is the Hill Tribe Council. And in Chandel, if I'm not mistaken, the Cookie Chief Association is taking up the movement. So since the Chanpur is where the epicenter of the issue is, ITLF is currently leading and the others are following. And ITLF is made up of who? Like of course the name indicates something. Who are you? All the recognized tribe in Chulal Chanpur. For example, the Tharav Cookie, the Paites, the Maar, the Zo, the Simtes, the Waipes, and Tarim Chin. These are the tribes which constitute ITLF. Okay. And so of course we have heard and everyone has reported on the demand for separate administration. But what is your overall, what do you want out of this? Of course, from your side, it is something that you have been pushed into over time. So you can get into a bit of the history if you like, give us a bit of context and tell us what the demands are cohesively if there is a cohesive demand for all of these tribes. Because also in terms of numbers and things like that, some tribes are smaller, Tharav for example are probably bigger in number. So there must be some different particular demands that apply to particular members of the organization as well. Right. Like I said, ITLF is not a political party or a political organization in the first place. It's just a conglomerate of all recognized tribes, just to tackle certain issues which are related to the tribes. However, like I said, whether we like it or not, the movement started, the crisis started and we have to take this up. Now, apart from ITLF, there are other nomenclature groups, I would say, like the Cookie in Pea, Manipur and we also have the Jomi Council and the Maar in Puyas as well. So since they are not involved from the beginning, ITLF has to initiate the the movement and in terms of, like I said, it's not a political organization. For the political demands, we have the SOO groups which are the KNO and the UPF group. They are the one who demands our political aspirations. So as of now, we are working together with the SOO group as well and we are in continuous in touch with them so that our demands are in sync. So let me go back to the SOO groups. SOO group from I think from 2005, they have started demanding a separate administration from the Government of India. They have not specified exactly what they demand but they have been demanding separate administration from that time onward. And the government has been in dialogue with them for a long, long time and now that the crisis erupted and ITLF have started demanding total separations from Manipur. So the demands with the SOO group have demanded way back in 2005 is now currently in sync with what ITLF is demanding now. So essentially what you're saying is like the old political objectives of these SOO groups and now the social and sort of real political aspirations of the Koki people are somehow or not somehow but coming together. And last time also the 10 MLAs that we have have given a memorandum to Amit Shah, the union home minister and they demanded a total separation from Manipur. So the MLAs, the people representative demands, the SOO group demands and the civil society organization demands are all the same right now. So we all demand total separation from Manipur. Is that what has led to the kind of cohesiveness that we see on the ground here? Yes. So in terms of that sort of conversation that is ongoing and you are like you mentioned you are in touch and working in coordination with the KNO and the UPF, there have been some conversations it seems with the SOO groups about the possibility or the idea of territorial councils. Is there anything that you can tell us further on that point and how particularly in the context of how this might be different from the idea of hill area committees sort of ADCs and autonomous district councils and those or is it very much similar to how these things actually happen in government systems and processes that are already functional in India? Right, those what you are talking about the territorial council, autonomous district council are all the demands that were made before this crisis. So this crisis, current crisis, the actual cleansing that we face right now changed the political scenario altogether. Earlier the SOO group were signing an agreement with the government for not to break the integrity of Manipur. Now that is not valid anymore because so many people, so many of our people have been killed, so many churches and houses and properties have been burned down by in the infall valley by the Métis communities. So we don't see any reason why we should you know continue to live together with them. That's why the idea of not breaking the integrity of Manipur does not stand anymore. That's why we have started to demand total separation. So even the SOO group have to upgrade or update their you know demand according to the situation at hand. How does that work Gindar because like we you know when we speak to let's say people who were displaced who were from some of these villages on the periphery in Kanpur district for example villages like Sardarjaute and in that belt. When they need to access a marketplace, when they need to access anything that is not available in the forest that or in the villages that constitute their land, they have to go through or they have to interact with or transact with the Métis who live you know just across the field, across the paddy. So in real terms how does this separation look in your mind or in the idea of your organization? Right we've been living with the Métis community for a long long time and we never look them as our enemies. However recently there's a lot of changes happening in Manipur a lot of discrimination toward one particular community. They have started you know calling us you know puppy cultivators, foreigners, illegal immigrants, all those sorts and they introduce forest policy to kind of grabs our lands. So all this put together you know inside the friendliness it you know kind of agitate the tribal people when we look at all these policies. So there are I would say there are three major policies which the state government led by Biren Singh eventually led to this you know crisis. The first the first thing is the the introduction of various forest policies like reserve forest protective forest and wildlife sanctuary in tribal lands trying to you know get as many tribal lands for the government. That is one and number two is the ST demand which the Métis are asking. The ST demand has an inner agenda it's not only for the reservation point of view it is again related to land issues because according to the constitution of India under the article 370c if I'm not mistaken yeah it protects the tribal lands saying that you know non-ST cannot purchase land from the tribal land. So because of that the Métis are not able to purchase land tribal lands here. So in order for them to purchase land they need to they have to become ST. I think that is the agenda behind the ST demand and thirdly the NRC the plan they are planning to introduce NRC with the cut off year of 1951. So anyone who is coming to Manipur after 1951 will be considered as illegal. So all these three points you know put together points toward one thing which is you know the Métis are trying to grab the tribal lands that's you know give insecurity to the tribal people and if I may continue in the beginning of the year one village Kuki village Khe Song Jang was evicted and it was bulldozed in the pretext of you know protected forest. The government said that the Khe Song Jang village is under protected forest and they evicted the village and you know remove all the bulldozed all the houses there. So that is the one incident and then after that the churches in Infal three churches where you know bulldozed again evicted again demolished. So all this incident comes to you know led to the you know agitation and as we all know 3rd May when the Atsum all tribal student union Manipur organized solidarity rally the incident of burning of the Anglo Kuki sent to the gate and the people who went to the rally were bitten by some you know Métis and all this led to the you know the issue. So now we are close to two months into the actual conflict part or the violence part of it. Before that there were agitations it was you can call it propaganda or you can call it hate speech however you want to call it but the actual violence let's say broke out on the 3rd of May and we won't at this point get into who did what first and all that because I think that has been kind of already covered to great detail. How does the agitation on your part end because people are facing a great deal of difficulty tens of thousands are still displaced kids are not being able to go to school for two reasons one that of course schools are currently shut but but also those schools are currently housing several thousand of the displaced themselves because you know that's where the space is everything the economy is suffering you have to get basic materials from Mizoram instead of from Manipur or from other parts of Manipur. So where do we go from here how do you see the next couple of months developing how do you see the process sort of moving forward or is it going to be stalemate until all demands are met. Right it's going to be kind of going to everything is going to be the same I mean like it is right now because we cannot move forward at the moment because like we said all the educational schools are occupied by the displaced people and we cannot start the school as well and on the other hand almost every day we've been attacked by the Maytei armed groups every now and then we hear villages being attacked villages being burned so we cannot we cannot be we cannot stay as if there is no war so we have to be prepared for the war I mean we are not going to go and go out and attack the Maytei villages we have to make sure that we defend our villages that's why we cannot live a life as if there are peace so everyone has to be ready that's why we need to protect our land protect boundary villages which are in the boundaries so life cannot be normal at the moment I would say so education business has to stand still for now how long can you keep can you sustain this movement this agitation if things remain as they are I cannot say anything I don't know what the future holds for us but as far as we are concerned we will continue to defend our land come what may we are prepared to face whatever you know situation that that we fall us so we will continue and we don't know we we the government is saying that they're gonna send relieve materials but so far it has not reached or we are not aware that it has reached to us so but still we are going to maintain that from our side through the health from other organization here and outside the states do you think the central government has a good grip on events an understanding of the complexity of this conflict and therefore are able to contribute effectively to finding a solution I don't think the government understood the actual situation they may be and they may understand the issue or they don't want to you know actually help there's two things right whether they are ignoring that of the situation or they knew the situation so well and they don't want to help that kind I think the possibility because almost every day there are life there are lots of life and whenever some big big official coming from the central government came here in Lamca certain you know cookie villages will be burned and attacked every time even the last time when Amit Shah came even while he was here there are some villages which been attacked so Amit Shah Sir G Amit Shah himself knew the situation but I don't think he is you know he is willing to act because he pretty well know that the situation here the law and order situation collapse and the government is not able to handle the situation he is well aware of that still he is letting the chair minister and balancing lead the government despite of the fact that he is not able to hand handle the law and order situation so if the central government really understood the volatile issue here they should have introduced president rule way back but but do you think that's in the interests of the people to have president's rule with the kind of presence of security forces that will kind of entail in order to keep things going central security forces will have perhaps even less of an understanding at least the soldiers on the ground right they will come from the rest of India who you know perhaps are alien to your language your culture your food habits the climate and of course also the issues for which you are fighting right right but yes there would be some disconnect in that part but if there is a president's rule at least the governance will not be of the the state anymore it has to be it will be governed by the central government and I think they would be low and order issue and you know many life could be saved because if the president rule is there the the central army will be ruling the the state and they will save people's life I think we can we can head towards wrapping up Ginza maybe a couple more questions one one of course being that the central government at present the BJP has a self-professed Hindutva ideology and also this present bout of violence which again has lasted almost two months in which hundreds of churches and we have seen evidence of it whether they are and across denomination whether they are methe christian churches or cookie churches or even the odd naga church here and there all kinds of churches have come under attack in the light of that broader sort of difference that exists and and the ideology that exists in in the center what is your real hope in in this particular government led by Narendra Modi yeah it's it's very difficult to say till now the prime minister Narendra Modi has not spoken up a single word for Manipur I think he's kind of ignore ignoring Manipur I think altogether both cookies and methe there there are over hundred and thirty life has been lost so far and so far prime minister Modi has not utter a single word so I don't know is the prime minister not considering us as an Indian or are we a lesser Indian we don't know I think the government is just let is just looking at us and you know watching us killing each other so if they are really interested in our issue they should have take things in into their hand and control they could have stopped so many a life like I said they could have introduced the president rule and take the law and order in their hand and stop killing but instead they do not do that and you know they allow people to loot to loot arms in the armory and allow us to shoot each other they should have stopped that so the prime minister should have you know focus more into Manipur and they should work out and you know bring a solution to our state finally because the other sort of stark reality of Manipur today is that this violence hasn't just affected people who have directly faced physical violence it seems to have affected every class of society irrespective of who you might belong to you might be mayan pangal you might be politically elite no one has been spared including yourself so if I can end on a personal note on May 3rd and 4th how was it for you what has your experience been of of of the this war as you call it and what effect has it had on your family and your friends and how has it changed the fabric of life in Manipur right um as a as a you know leader of organization on on on on the 3rd may the moment now we get to know about the burning of the anglo-cookie centenary gate i rush to the site with my team and within no time you know riot broke out in the border area of the district and we also i myself also rushed to the spot and we were shot with tear gas and i was also you know part of that i mean in in the group so from from that night till today i i do not have a proper sleep or i i i i or spend time with my family so every day uh you know we have to look after things so there is no rest uh ever since that day and like i said i personally i do not have much time to spend with my family and there are many times you know my home is just like it's only a place for eating food and sleep the moment i'm awake i'm off to the field kind of thing so it's been difficult all right and i think you have some some time to go before your struggle before before this agitation comes to any kind of fruition all the best in the way thank you very much for talking to you you're welcome thank you