 Good afternoon and welcome to Moments with Melinda. My guest today is Alec Webb. Hi Alec. Hi Moella. How are you today on this unseasonably warm couple of days? It's gorgeous out here. I'm great. Thanks. You're doing well. Well, that's wonderful. Let me share with my viewers a little bit about your illustrious life. Alec Webb is the president of Shelburne Farms. He helped plan and coordinate the development of Shelburne Farms as a nonprofit organization and has been active in local land use planning, agriculture and environmental education projects for many years. In 2006, Alec was awarded an honorary doctor of science degree from Middlebury College. Vermont Governor Madeline Cunin honored Alec in 1990 for his extraordinary contributions to Vermont. And he received the Vermont Land Trust Richard W. Carbon Community Conservation Award in 1998. So there you go. That's just a small minute touch of your extraordinary life and what you have contributed to Vermont and to our world. So here we go. I agree. Now Alec, Shelburne Farms has been a big part of your entire life. Would you share with my viewers a little bit about growing up at Shelburne Farms? Sure. Actually, I was at a conference one time and that person who was speaking said, something like, all of you in the room, if you go back to your home place, don't recognize it, raise your hand. And I was ambivalent about that because our family home was near the dairy barn. So for those of you who know Shelburne Farms, there's the melting barn and as you're going towards the lake on the way to the end on the right, and our family home was just maybe 200 or 300 yards north of the melting barn. So my dad built that barn in 1952, which was the year I was born. So we grew up in a house that was just through the woods from the melting barn. So our world, and that's one of six kids, there's six of us from my generation. So our world was very, I don't know the smallest right word, but it was about our home and the melting barn and the farm operations and it was on Orchard Point, which there was a calf barn and we had a horse barn and stuff, so it was, but today it's more of a residential area. So if I went back, or when I go back to Orchard Point, it's a completely different environment than I grew up in. Shelburne Farms is also a lot different in that again, when we were growing up, it was a working dairy farm. So that was our whole context for growing up and now it's this amazing, it still is even I guess the threat of continuity is the working farm, but it's just so enjoyed by so many people now in so many different ways, it's also quite a different environment. But what an incredible life growing up on this dairy farm on that incredible piece of property and you've been there your whole life and you live there with your with your parents and your siblings and what a beautiful, what a beautiful, wonderful childhood you must have had. So who or what do you believe helped to focus your life's work on promoting and educating humans on the importance of our planet's health? Who had the who had the greatest influence on you, Alec? Well, I went, I was sent off to private school fairly young at a young one in the fifth grade, which is like, I can't imagine sending one of my kids off in fifth grade. So that was good for in terms of like maybe learning study skills and, you know, discipline, doing homework, that type of thing. It wasn't so great in the emotional IQ world, but it was so as in an environment in the 60s, you know, so I graduated from high school in 1970 that while there were benefits, you know, from the kind of the intellectual side, it really it felt like I was in kind of a bubble and that the education I was getting was kind of disconnected from what was going on in the 60s in the real world. So I, there were teachers, there were, you know, the readings that we were doing, you know, Dana Meadows and others, you know, early on, early environmental thinkers and writers, Rachel Carson and others. So I think it was, you know, and you know, it's hard to, for me to pinpoint, you know, a single individual, but it was more the context of growing up in the 60s with the, in feeling this desire to, you know, seek more meaningful educational opportunities for myself and, you know, as a way of creating change in the world. You were part of the 60s revolution, as was I, and we can, we can attribute, you know, civil rights and women's rights and disability rights and environmental rights, Earth Day to 17% of our youth who stood up and were revolutionaries. And yeah, yeah. So you had children farms, you know, in that kind of, it was under increasing development pressure, you know, when it's through the strip development, it was pushing south and through seven. So you had, so yeah, those pressures in the context of the global situation is what led to the thinking around creating a nonprofit organization that could use Shelburne Farms as a resource for, you know, helping address some of those larger societal and environmental issues. Which is what you did. So to my viewers, how would you characterize Shelburne Farms as somebody who has lived there and helped it to grow to what it is today? How would you characterize Shelburne Farms? Well, Shelburne Farms today is this amazing place for learning, you know, we're an education organization and our mission is to inspire and cultivate learning for a sustainable future. So it's, it's this combination of this incredibly beautiful working farm and landscape with an educational idea that goes far beyond this place, but is grounded in place. So I'd like to think of our Shelburne Farms as this amazing local community resource that is, you know, globally connected through a network of organizations and individuals who are concerned about the future of our world. And it's one of the top five places that people go to visit when they come to Vermont. Yeah, and we have this interesting dynamic. We don't promote ourselves as a tourist attraction because we really want, we're an educational organization with this amazing campus that we want to welcome people to come and enjoy, but we're here to create this place of learning, not just to get as many people as possible to come, you know, and visit and leave. It's really one of the things I love about, through COVID was, you know, you have people from the local community coming out to walk, you know, multiple times a week. So that kind of, as opposed to someone just coming and experiencing Shelburne Farms and leaving and not coming back, it's that kind of deep connection with the local communities, what really is a lot of what makes Shelburne Farms, I think, so special. But I've had people who have come from other countries staying with us who go to Shelburne Farms and go back, came from with what they took away from Shelburne Farms. So it inspires and creates wisdom in people's hearts who have gone there. I think it's one of the great wonders of the world, but anyway. So Alec, what do you consider the greatest challenges you have faced as you worked to create this internationally revered and inclusive experience known as Shelburne Farms? Well, I definitely have been working for a long time on this, but I'm, Shelburne Farms is not here because of me. There are so many people who have made it work in a way. And I'm, I feel like part of my role has been maybe like a stage hand in a way, you know, like creating an environment where amazing people can do amazing work here. And there have been so many that along the way that have done that. So, yeah, well, you're like a wizard in a way, helping or the conductor, maybe the conductor or the director, but what, what is one of the greatest challenges? Was it, was it taking it as a family home and respite and turning it into the non-profit? Or was it, what do you feel were some of the greatest challenges? And to my viewers who may not know this, Shelburne Farms is, is in Shelburne, Vermont. And so I'm going to, and I also want you to know that their, their website is ShelburneFarms.org. And I suggest you visit their website. So the challenges there keep evolving, you know, so in the, so the, the non-profit was incorporated in 1972 and that was, it was just an idea, the place is still owned privately by my father. And so I guess the challenge at that time was envisioning a different, you know, future for this place because if it just kind of got in the normal course of events it would have been become a high end subdivision, I guess, you know, suburban subdivision, very golf course or whatever private club. So I think the first step was re-envisioning a different future. And then, and then the reality was like, then how do you realize that future? And it was, so it was, it was a community coming together to, to help think about and bring that along so that our family, you know, so my dad had to think about how to handle things. And we all asked him to leave the property of the non-profit. So what he did when he died unexpectedly at my, you know, I'm 70. He dropped out at 70 from a heart attack. And it was the kind of old school where he hadn't discussed his estate plan with us explicitly kind of, you know, his will was his business type thing. But when he, he had in fact decided to leave the property of the non-profit. So that was the good news is that, you know, six of us didn't inherit it. And then, you know, divided up. So it went to the, the single non-profit entity, but there was no endowment. They're, you know, the plate, all the major buildings are falling to the ground. The, there wasn't revenue to cover the operating expenses. And there, but the, we had through the 70s. My first wife, Marilyn was, you know, played a role in it with my, you know, Marshall who passed away last year and others, you know, starting planting the seeds of the the education program. So they were there, but they were still an early developmental phase. So it was, how do you, you know, build the board, build the staff, trade sources of revenue and build a program and, you know, so that's what we've been working on since then. And now, we have this amazing place, but now we have to think about the next 50 years and setting that up for success. And, but it's, and, you know, so in the 80s, Megan Camp is my partner. And yet we've had this, a partner, we know we've been working together in a leadership role. With Marshall, you know, since the 80s and the challenges program and the program, you know, how do you take some great programs that are serving a local, the local audience and create an international network of educators that are making a difference in their own schools and communities around the world. So, I don't know, it's been a, it's a, it's been a, it's been a, it's been you know. How to weave together, all of the different aspects of shal grind farms into this wonderful whole, you know, that is inspiring and cultivating learning for the sample future that's that's the big challenge and we were making steady progress with that. And you did it. Yeah, you did so beautifully. So, let's move on to shal grind farms as an educational non-profit business when as an educational non-profit predicating on cultivating learning for a sustainable future. Can you explain a little bit more about this mission? Yeah, so as I said, we want to use this amazing place to invite people on a learning journey around sustainability. And then our focus has been largely around young people. So, you know, helping and the way to have the greatest impact is by working with educators who, you know, spend their careers working with multiple classes. So it's really about supporting education that's tied to place and community and engages young people in developing a sense that they can make a difference. And that's what we've been doing in the world. So how many students do you think you reach in a year with your programs? Well, we have, so our, you know, direct service programs on the farm. We have probably, I don't know where I have to talk about, but eight to 10,000 probably young people come through the programs. Our children's farm yard has, you know, before COVID, we had about 30,000 families and kids come through there. And we, you know, work with probably around 1500 educators this year. Both, you know, some will come for institutes on site, but we also work virtually now or our educators go to other schools and communities. So some of the finest Vermont products are grown, milked, and created at children farms, notably your cheeses and your breads. And I, and I believe your hands too, at least in your gift baskets, you have the best hands ever. Talk a little bit with my viewers about regenerative agriculture. Well, so, you know, like ultimately rests on soil, I guess, you know, healthy soil and healthy ecosystem. So to the extent, so our goal has been to farm in a way that is good for the environment and creates healthy food for, for to, you know, help support healthy local food systems. So our dairy, you know, as I said, my dad started the dairy in 1952. And in the 70, you know, wholesale milk production was challenging. And so in the late 70s, we tried bottling raw milk and we were, I think at one point we're selling about 12,000 half gallons a week locally. We had a little truck going around the supermarkets. And then we transitioned that into making raw milk cheddar cheese in the early 80s. So that, that added, that was a strategy for adding value to the milk to help, you know, provide the revenue to help support the working landscape here and produce a wonderful product, you know, that would help feed people and help sustain the organization. And with our woodlands too. So we have our working farmland that supports the dairy and the cheese making and a small flock of sheep, briland and small beef herd. And then we, our woodland supports a maple sugaring operation now that we make about 1200 gallons of syrup a year. And we've managed the woodlands for both the saw logs and the firewood, but also for wildlife and, you know, and for people to enjoy it through walking, that type of thing. Do you think your parents would be proud of you for what you've done? Do you think they'd be all pumped and excited and enthusiastic? Well, my mother outlived my dad by a few years, but now I think my, my father would, you know, he, so he died in 1984 before the lot unfolded. So I think he would, it would be fun to tour around with him. Sure. I think you'd feel, I think it'd be so great to see the, the dairy still going and just kind of probably be amazed to see the, the, you know, the, the, the large buildings. He decided to basically abandon or let go of the major, you know, estate buildings. He didn't foresee a future, you know, he wasn't trying to bring back the private estate qualities. He was just trying to make it work as the working dairy. So for him to, to see what you've done with the, to see the public and join in kids and so I think, yeah, all the events that you show and events that you hold there. So, Alex, share with us the history of this land that you steward and the Abenaki influence that you so honor today. Mm hmm. Well, yeah, this land. Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's an amazing piece of property and that 10,000 years or more ago, the Abenaki were here and we're, we're trying to really work on acknowledging the whole story of the land here and not to start with the, you know, the web's coming to town. So the, so, yeah, so, you know, as in the rest of Vermont, you know, we, the Abenaki, you know, were displaced and the land taken by the European settlement that happened and then the children farms that, that ended up being like a community of 30 something farms that were going in the, in the mid 1980s. And then when the, my great-grandparents came to town, they purchased those, you know, I think 36 farms and consolidated them into what's children farms today. Actually, it was a larger property at that time. And they brought in Frederick Law Olmsted to help kind of conceptualize the layout. And that's why I feel when you come in, it feels more park-like or, you know, it's not like a typical Vermont landscape. So the curvilinear road systems and the way the plantings were developed to kind of highlight different spatial relationships and views that, that was Olmsted's influence, which was pretty great because he Olmsted did Central Park and other parks, but I think he, the story goes that he was interested in working with private properties like this, that he thought might someday, you know, go into the public realm because that was his real interest was in creating spaces that everybody could enjoy, not just the, the wealthy few. So, so what brought your, your great-grandparents or your grandparents, what brought them to Vermont? And what brought them to Vermont and that, that piece of land? Yeah. Well, he, so he, my great-grandfather married Lila Vanderbilt and her family was in the railroad business. I guess he came up to look at the railroads or whatever, and they fell in love with this area and ended up after she, and she, I guess didn't have a real concept of, you know, she inherited $10 million in the 1880s and they used that land to, you know, buy land and build children farms. But they weren't particularly good business people though. There was kind of like they won the lottery and they, you know, they, they spent it well, but it. Well, you, you and the world are benefactors of that, but they weren't farmers. No, well, he was totally into horses, you know, so he built these big barns to, to, you know, to breed and use horses to maintain the property. And she was very, you know, love gardens and horticulture. So she, she was behind developing the gardens, the flower gardens near the, the inn. And Shelburne Museum was started by. So my grandfather's brother married a lecture at Habermeyer. So it was a family connection there. Yeah. Yeah. So talk to us a little bit about Shelburne Farms Institute for Sustainable Schools. And as we all know, it will be our youth who save what will be their future. So is how, how is Shelburne Farms helping them in that quest? Well, so the, as I mentioned, Megan. Camp came here in the early 80s and has been building our, our program outreach and is, is developed a lot of partnerships around the world. And so the Institute for Sustainable Schools really is the culmination of a lot of that effort with her colleagues who we've got this amazing crew of educators here. So really the Institute for Sustainable Schools is the umbrella for our work with educators and supporting that's the network of educators who are committed to educating for sustainability. And we have a great partnership, a long time partnership with the University of Vermont. That's, you know, through various colleges, but there are lead partner in the Institute in that they have a certificate program in education for sustainability that may evolve into a graduate. And I can, I can, I can assume that many of my viewers, that their children may have gone through a program at Shelburne Farms. Yeah. So we use, so when educators or teachers come here with their kids, they can learn how to use a place like Shelburne Farms to enhance their learning experiences. But the goal isn't to have every child in Vermont or the world come to Shelburne Farms for every community in Vermont and around the world have educators who can have the skills and the confidence to use their local community resources and special places as extensions of their learning environment. So that's, that's the real, that'll be the real measure of success. So you're teaching the teachers to teach? Yes. Yeah. Because that's how it works. But I think we all remember that the recycling program in Vermont was actually started by the children. Yeah. We brought it to their parents and said, you know, why are you throwing that out? So anyway, bless our sweet children. So, so I want, I want to touch a little bit on your brother, Marshall Webb, passed away last summer. And it was a deep and profound loss to all of us and many people around the world, but especially to you and your family. Can you share with us the Marshall Webb Earth Day 2028 challenge and how can my viewers get involved? Yep. So one of our big organizational commitments is to improve our stewardship practices. And so of course the climate change being such a global issue, we want to become where we've set the goal of becoming net zero beyond net zero by 2028 in our practices and largely just to be good stewards of what we're responsible for, but also to help build this inspiring learning environment so that it can be a place where people can see, you know, how we went about that process and what it might look like. So we, and that's part of the ongoing fundraising efforts. We have a climate action fund that we're raising funds to first put together our planning framework for achieving net zero. And then of course we'll take a significant investment to accomplish it. So you're creating, you're creating within your environment at Shelburne Farms, an example of sustainable practices. Subscribe viewers if you are interested in supporting Shelburne Farms and supporting the Marshall Webb Earth Day 2028, you can go to the website ShelburneFarms.org and make a donation. And that would be, we all would be very grateful for you to do that. Well, that's just fabulous, Alec, and bless your sweet brothers hard. What would your words of wisdom for our children today who are facing planet warming, hence the last few days, a tax on our democracy and other challenges that for them seems so daunting? Wow. I guess that we can all make a difference, you know, in our, that together, you know, like if we all do what we can, actually I just found this amazing quote that was this book called Buddha's Brain by Rick Hansen, but he said, this quote, this is from somebody in the coast of Johnson, do all that you can with all that you have in the time that you have and the place that you are. And I was thinking I might add, you know, with the people and community you love, but that's, I think we just, with whatever resources we have, and for young people, you know, I think it's to, you know, to be young and then as you grow older, you know, grow into a kind of, if every kid had the sense that they could make a difference in their lives, that would be so wonderful. Well, it's tough for kids today, especially with the pandemic and what they're seeing on TV. And especially those that, you know, who are disenfranchised, it's very difficult. So as we face 85 degree weather over the past few days, which has been very beautiful, all the daffodils have blossomed, but it is disturbing in a way. What is your hope for humanity's future? 25, 50 years down the road. What do you see? Well, let's see. You've got such diversion, you know, you have a lot of reason for hope and a lot of reason for pessimism. I think that, I don't know. Well, let me help you here. Yeah. All the children and all the students and the teachers and the people that you're putting through Shelburne Farms, they're the hope for the future. And you must see that every day in the work that you do and your, and your team are doing. Yeah. You give you great hope. Yes, that's true. Yeah. I mean that, and I think the biggest hope would be that the people like ourselves who have access to opportunity and resources that many don't, that everybody really uses them to, in every possible way for the betterment of all, you know, the resources that you're putting through Shelburne Farms. I think that's the real hope perhaps that that will happen. You're here. Another thing I wanted to bring up because I've been thinking about this for the last five or six years. The word sustainability doesn't really work for me anymore because I don't know if we can, if we really, if we can sustain what we have with where we are. So the word used a lot amongst environmentalists. The word adaptability. I don't know if you can get on that Alec. I love adaptability resilience. But I'm still hanging in there with sustainability. Not because it's, you know, who wants to just be sustainable, but on the other hand. There's a lot of good things in that word in that in terms of long-term thinking. So to me, it's, it's more, it doesn't have the quality of life thing that jumped out. But if you, I think the importance of thinking long-term, that's what sustainability still resonates for me about, you know, it's really, it's like not just looking at short-term. How far out, how far out do you think? Well, until the sun goes out, I guess. I don't know. It's a long time frame, but you know. Good for you Alec with until the sun. Well, I have no doubt you're going to be around. I don't know where or where you're going to be, but you're going to be making a big difference wherever you are. In closing on, this is kind of fun. Can you tell my viewers what baby animals they can see and pet at your farm yard? I think it's, we have some goats and some, the cutest baby lands now. We aren't really officially open. I mean, the trails are open to people can swim by. You know, we have a little calf up there in the summer room. But I think the goats are probably my favorite. The cutest. Well, you know, goat yoga now for baby goats are helping people get through Europe. Well, listen, we've come to the end of this interview. And I just want to tell you that for many, many years, I've admired you and loved you. And I, and the work that you and your family have done and your team is extraordinary. So I want to thank you for your time to be on my show. And I wish you a beautiful day. Well, thanks, Melinda. There's somebody once told me that my main job is thanking people. And I feel like I never do that adequately, but thank you. And I just, for people are seeing this, who I've been supporting the farm. I just want to thank everybody. It's been an amazing, where it is amazing community that's making children farms possible. So it's a great village. Yeah, really. Really a great community. And to my viewers, I want to thank you for, for, for watching my show. And I will see you shortly. Enjoy this day. And I say goodbye.