 Hello everyone, I am Mansi Sharma, senior correspondent with exchangeformedia.com and I welcome you all to this very interesting panel wherein we'll discuss how these agencies send in their best bets to Kans. Just to give you a little overview, as all of us know, Kans lines is probably the most prestigious metals that anyone in the industry can hold on to and definitely it makes it a herculean task that goes into the background before sending in the final pitches, creating the briefs and sending it to the juries. Today we have the best of the best discussing with us how do they go about it, what sort of discussions go behind before sending in the end phase to the juries. Let me start with welcoming the distinguished panel that we have here today. First of all, we have Ms. Anupama Ram Swamy, who is the managing partner and national creative director at Densu Impact. Next, we have Amit Akali, the co-founder and chief creative officer at Wonder Lab, possibly the newest agency on the block within this panel and otherwise as well. Then VML, Y&R, India, CCO Mukunt Oleti, who also brings in a diverse range of learnings from his roles at Siberia's international organizations. We also have Shumwanta Chattopadhyay, who is the chairperson and CCO at 82.5 communications, one of the most dynamic and social media-friendly creative heads today. And lastly, but not the least, Keegan Pinto, who is the CCO at FCB Ulka and also holds a quite diverse experience in the field. I welcome you all. Thanks, Manasi. Thank you. Thanks, Manasi. Thank you. Thank you so much for giving your time today. And before we dive into the more serious part of the discussion, first of all, one by one, go by and tell me how stressful is it for all of you, all a few weeks before you send in the entries to the juries at Kans, rated on a scale of 1 to 10 for us. We'll start with Keegan because he is first on my screen. Scale of 1 to 10, it's 30 on a scale of 1 to 10. No, I have some basic yardsticks. So it's a game of rigour and you've got to be at it and you've got to feel the migraine for the gain. So that's how I see it. It's not a simplistic game. You've got to have maybe a huge quantity of wow ideas and keep playing this little game with yourself, which is a pick-only one. So you might have a lot of really nice ones, but the game is pick-only one and then, yeah, so rigour largely. No, I mean, like Keegan was saying, a lot of quality comes with quantity, but I think that's about the doing the work. I think doing the work is the stressful part, but picking is the easier part, I would say, because I think good work always finds a way to rise to the top. There's no holding back good work. And I don't think there's stress in picking the work when you have the work. And of course, there's a whole body of discussion that goes into crafting the entries, making the entries and reaching the final submission levels. And sometimes it's the results. Sometimes pieces like say the chumpy beats for parachute has 27 billion views. Who can compete with that? Why would you hold it back in your agency? So there are a mix of great ideas, beautifully executed, and sometimes great result. I think good work kind of finds itself to the top. And then I think it's easier to pick those works and make that submission. Great, great. Amit? So honestly, it's not very stressful. We've been doing this for years and years. I think just keep a few principles in mind. I think I keep reminding myself that every entry costs a lot. That's one pressure that I put on myself. And the other thing I think about is that what if I was paying for this from my pocket? And to think about it for the last five years, I was paying for it from my pocket. So I think you have to be very, very clear and loyal about every entry. The work is the only thing that matters. Nothing else can influence it. It's serious money going out out there. And yeah, I think if you're sensible about your entries, it's all good. You have been listening very intently. I think it's stressful and the reason that it's stressful is when, as I'm now talking as being part of a larger system, where there were loads of entries and every creative team thinks that the sun shines out of their beat. So they think that their campaign is the next drop for you winner. And if you're not selecting it, and you can only select a few, let's say from the larger group, then you're biased again. You don't get it. And that's why you're not selecting it. So I think that stress of dealing with that disappointment is, that is the stress. Otherwise, I think over the years, as Amit was saying that you do get a sense of what does win. And I would say that more than what, when you've got a pool of entries from which to select, I think most of us know what's definitely not going to win. I think we can't be 100% sure that something's going to win. So I think that's where the stress comes from. I can't put a number to it, but that's the stress. Yeah, so I think the money part is the most important one. Choosing from a gamut of things and not, and you have so many people to please in your own system, saying that you've chosen from another team, you haven't chosen from our team, etc. But at the end of the day, there is no rule. There is absolutely no rule. Sometimes the best of the work that we feel should win a role, sometimes wins a bronze or a merit. So every time it's different. Also depends a lot on the jury, who's there and keeping those things in mind. I think a lot goes in the homework of it. I'm rather not stressed this year at all because this year we have chosen not to enter for whatever reason because of the COVID and all those things. So the stress is not there. So I'm relaxed. Even a day before, like not day before, the night before, you're sitting and rewriting the entries and rewriting, re-crafting everything and the case studies and stuff like that. Just speaking about the entries also, there's an opposite side to the story also. You can't overdo it on a particular entry. I mean, on the jury side and everybody has been there, you actually get irritated if one entry gets entered too many times or you see it too many times. It has to be relevant. It has to be in the right category. So it's about choosing just right, not overdoing it. Obviously the stress is have you underdone it and therefore lost out on an award. But the key would be also not to overdo it. I just want to share an anecdote here. We were talking about your very enthusiastic creative teams who probably won in previous years and then I think that we all become very arrogant or complacent and this one particular guy, he actually, so when we were deciding what to send, so he had put down something which was the title of the entry and I said, can you show the entry? This is within our system and he said, no, I've not done it yet. But because he was riding high on the success of the last couple of awards, and I said, and we would generally be deciding what to send when the initial last date is already over. Anyway, as the system we did, he said, don't worry, I've spoken to so and so and it's going to go, you know, we have enough time. So yeah, that's just an aside. I think the real stress lies in picking the right categories. Do you guys feel stressed about that or is it just me? That was my next question. Like, how do you go about picking this category for this particular campaign? I think a lot of homework needs to be done in the past three years, four years. What are the type of things that are winning in that particular category? And then because if you have only 100 bucks, you will think 10 times before putting it in, say, two of them and not put it in the other two. If you feel that, oh, it had a higher chance in the other one. So there's always a debate on that. And with the public service campaigns, it's always there. It's always there. But I think the categories, so many categories there and it's interesting because every category comes with a different duty. So ideally you can take one piece and you can split it across categories, you just get exposed to more duties, right? So that's a tip that I kind of use. And then again, in the category, I mean, I think don't overdo it, but there are some particular things that really, really help. So for example, healthcare, communication to doctors for disease awareness and you have something like that. It makes sense to put it into a specific category. I'm actually quite proud of my whole entry win ratio. So when we won the Agency of the Year, we actually had just 13 pieces that we entered and 12 of them, I mean, 13 entries actually, four pieces, 13 entries and 12 of them, one something or the other, one a shortlist or something or the other. And there was the Agency of the Year. So it was actually 13 out of 13. So yeah, so I'm pretty proud if I'm a boss myself. But I think it's just homework, it's just calculation homework and lots of luck. Yeah, but there's a lot of, even the categories are evolving, right? Every year there's new categories being and subcategories being added. I think that kind of adds to the whole tension part of it. So one thing I wanted to add here is that in my experience, one is that I've had experiences where they've actually called you and said, listen, we're shifting your entry, this category to another one, because that's more appropriate. And the other one is that we've called them and they're quite helpful, sometimes if you're stuck and you're not, because honestly speaking, sometimes the category descriptions also leave you scratching your head. So yeah, yeah. Also, if you remember Amit, you know, healthcare, not many people wish to enter healthcare before you started. I want to say this about Amit, healthcare, we didn't know about it in radar and then suddenly he started winning after a series and also every year they do introduce categories, subcategories, which because most people think that they know everything, they don't go through those subcategories properly. I just want to say that of course, Amit takes the cake when it comes to healthcare. For the first year that healthcare was introduced, I did win a award for that. And unfortunately, it was a day before the regular date of starting. So I missed being there for the award. But Shumando, you inspired me. And you left me in the dust. But you always show the way whether it's which restaurant to eat at or which category to enter at. I have a point on categories. So the whole list is damn elaborate. And so two points. There is some truth in it's almost like early on in my career, there was a big trick one I learned which is create for categories. And it did come with some success. So understand the category, pick the ones that are niche. There's some historic pieces of work which have been radio under 10 seconds, radio up to 5 seconds and things like that. So on a serious note, there are those tricks on another note. The game that the list plays with you is there's one brain teaser after the other. So it's just not getting easy. So you spend a lot of months and weeks for the work. And the work is coming out of a lot of difficulty. And then you kind of eventually choose one or two. And then you think your job is largely done. But then it's such a difficult task to choose the category. So on one side, you think can is making it easier for you by cutting it really slim. And there are a million categories. And then you also think is this a bit of a capitalistic move, which is so it's almost like the Grammys. So there's the pop act, there's the pop single artist, there's a pop duo vocal, there's the pop band. And it's like a million categories. So it's a strange one there, to be honest. Egan, obviously it's to make more money. Come on. No, I actually love the way Can introduces the categories in the sense that I think can evolves far. I mean, this is not an award conversation. But can evolves far before the industry evolves, categories are concerned. So and in fact, can if anything helps the industry evolve. So with this entire thing that last five, 10 years, we've been talking about integration, but can had an integration thing about 25 years back. We talk about the big idea and can had a titanium about 25 years back. And we've been talking about branded content and entertainment. We've been talking about the importance of healthcare and can just doesn't have categories of healthcare or branded content or innovation. They've got full award shows for, you know, these things that we call the future, you know, for the last eight years, seven years, they've had these categories. So I think I mean, it can actually shows the way to the way the industry is evolving. And again, I mean, I mean, just, you know, so, so social influencer wasn't a thing three years back, right, and can have a category just when it started, which is use of social influencers, you know, so I think, I think in that sense, it's quite inspirational. I was just adding that you're like today, you know, now they've introduced something creative business transformation lines or sustainability goals. I think at every step that, you know, they are completely in step with what's the way advertising and communication is evolving on the one hand. And the other generally the way, you know, the world is evolving the way thinking is changing, you know, the purpose led or in step with sort of every mega trend, so to speak. In fact, five years before the trend properly happened. So I think they guided, I mean, I've actually like studied this and they've actually guided it, you know, this whole purpose conversation. And they had these, you know, can for good, you know, very early on. So they actually kind of, you know, guide the trend actually, which is quite amazing. Yeah, even this year, I think they have creative transformation for business, right? So that's a lot to mention. Yeah, data came three years ago, I think the use of data was like two years ago, I think that use of data. I mean, e-commerce, use of data, you know, mobile, and then I like the way radio lines just became radio and audio lines. Because audio has been reborn in the digital data, so they also decided to immediately bring that into the fold. No, they do also spend a lot of time talking to the judges and evolving it within the categories itself. I remember, you know, when we were judging healthcare, you know, there was this whole thing of communication to doctors and communication, otherwise, and then they realized that in countries like, you know, so for the pharma category, for example, in a regulated country, it's very difficult to get an ad out, you know, and in a non-regulated country, especially when we do public service, it's very easy to get an ad out, you know. So the jury actually suggested that and they changed the category to regulated and non-regulated, you know, and that just makes so much sense. So actually, you know, hats off to them. I know we're digressing from the entry topic, but yeah. That was true, but I think can needs, I think can should be given a line for being creative with devising categories. Basically, because I just found out this year, there's a fair amount of dignity of labour subcategories. So while we thought they were obvious, there was a lot, there was like a wave, if I may, of the gender equality time, right? So there's an interesting multi subcategories and public service on dignity of labour, which I hadn't really spotted earlier. So it's interesting. As Amit observed that it also depends on the cultural and social nuances of any country to, you know, present their entries in a category. If you talk about India, do you think there are certain categories that where there's a better chance of an Indian campaign winning or it's not like that? Like, you know, every year, I hope that India being, you know, the typical way India is shown does not win, you know, just for us. But it always does. I got your point. Yeah, no, but India once began like, you know, film and print, right? But like, look at our mobile penetration and like, you know, the kind of like, you know, with the leap we have made it and made in mobile, but it's not reflecting in can, right? So I think, you know, I think that's where our opportunities lie on. How can we show that stuff that's happening on mobile in Indian market? Like, you know, this rural guy sitting somewhere is like talking to a dentist somewhere, right? So I'm like, you know, there's so many things happening, but the reflection of all that is not happening at the lion's stage. I think that's a challenge for India for sure. I think changing Mukund, I think, I think gone are the days that it was, I mean, film was always a little difficult because of the level of craft. Print was the easiest. But if you look at the entries in the last few years, you know, it's healthcare 1617 film is, I mean, print is two, three digital was fantastic. You know, they're pretty heated out of the park. Interesting ideas like the punishing signal, I'm sure will happen. Even films, I mean, I mean, I'm predicting but the category Diwali stuff should happen. And that's not just pure film. It's film plus purpose, plus assisting. So I think that is that is luckily changing. But yeah, I think I think slumdog millionaire fill out phenomenon will be there. So I want to add over here that some years ago, I came to know of this concept of misery tours, where foreigners who come to copy, they, you know, they will stay at the charge, but then they'll go to Dharavi. Yeah, there's a proper tour organized. Yeah, so that I think that is very, that was very much reflected in, you know, I mean, that is, that is the big what is in every, you know, Westerners head about India. So when you have an entry which conforms to that, they say, yeah, this is it. But I mean, saying it's changing a lot. I mean, even things like, well, Haddlebot or, you know, voice of hunger, those, maybe they tricked it with the word hunger in the title. Honestly, I think should use the culture too. And it's not just an Indian thing. You know, when you're judging, I think as a judge, and because Canada's the most diversified jury, you constantly want to learn something new about some other cultures, you want to know where that creative is coming from. You know, and if you if you if you get a little insight that bargaining is such a big thing, you know, in India, and something that may not, you know, so it's something new you're learning and having an idea based on bargaining, I think makes a lot of sense. I'm just saying that, in fact, that's a step forward from the kind of stuff that was winning earlier, which gets a step forward from at least what was winning like five years ago, right? But I think we still have miles to go in willing like e-commerce lines, for example. I think that's an opportunity. I mean, I spent the last five years in China, right? And the kind of e-commerce leap that China has taken, and it's like, you know, like something like pocket Wi-Fi is winning in can, I think that's where the opportunity lies for us. I feel like to create that kind of cases that kind of like get celebrated at a global stage. Now coming back to the topic from where we started, like how do you go about picking those entries? Can all of you tell me what's the process at your agencies? Like Mukund, you can always like you could draw from your international experiences as well. Is the culture different from Indian agencies? And Amit, you too, because it was like at Wonder Lab, it would have been your first year of picking those entries. You have been doing it for years for your own agency and other agencies as well. So is it like, do your internal teams make a presentation in front of you with the case studies in place? Or it's just about the numbers that, you know, right now we have social numbers for most of the campaigns. You depend on them largely. I mean, clearly the question to first ask is, are you proud of what you've created? And is it the best in class, right? And of course, like, you know, from then on, like, you know, you're picking like, you know, some of the best pieces from your agency are working with your ECDs, CCOs and picking the best in the agency. And of course, like, you know, every agency has this either a creative council kind of global system or a regional system where the shortlisted pieces get tightened, solidified, strengthened. And I think, you know, I think that's a good way to kind of like at least bounce off your cases from at least like two peers outside of your country. And just to get a sense of what they think of the case, how do we strengthen it? And I think like, you know, when enough eyeballs go on it, it kind of becomes a strong entry. Yeah. Yeah. So honestly, I've been on both sides of the place, right? So being part of the gray global creative council, and I think, I think most everybody else is from a network agency and the council actually plays a huge role. So literally almost 80% of the entries are chosen by the council. You have three to four council meetings during the year, though the council kind of direct switch entries to focus on depending on a seven plus eight plus or whatever the system is. And the council again helps. So, you know, kind of says, Hey, this has happened or not happened. This is the way we can wear it down to in a lot of places, the council also almost getting into, you know, writing the AV, you know, if they have to. So that's one system, of course, over there. And then of course, the last five, six years, there's no council, there's no, you know, and, but this thing, I think the only thing has to be is the work worth it. You know, they can be absolutely nothing else. I mean, who's created it doesn't matter, you know, which brand it is for doesn't matter, client is pushing, the guy will feel unhappy if we don't push it through. None of that matters, you know, it has to be only the work that matters. I just want to talk about the kind of opposite kind of experience. I mean, of course, in the system, it's always been a little haphazard because it's a little bit of all the, you know, sometimes it's the global council, sometimes it's what somebody in your office likes. It could be, it's because it's popular in India. But I mean, just to talk about something, it's a from some years back, this cleft to smile, which honestly, when it was presented at our global council, our global creative team at that time, kind of scoff at it. And, you know, I somehow, you know, being stubborn as I am, we sent it and it won like gold. And it won a few awards there, which was a tweetable logo, so to speak for Operation Smile, the cleft palate organization. So yeah, so sometimes, I mean, I can see also, like, while I'm sitting in judgment and I'm telling people, boss, you know, some young creative, but this is not going to win. I've been on the other side also where I've when, of course, I was not so young, but when, you know, people who are my seniors told me, boss, this is not going to work. And, you know, we sent it with you. I think it's the gut at the end of the day. And literally for five years, it was, it was that right, because something, you know what it is, you know which category it is for, you know, also in your head, you know, how you're going to package it. And all of that matters. So it is a gut. I'm not sure the council is the right thing to do. I think it would be good if councils gave advice and you took that as a base, you know, and then, you know, took your own steps and took your own leeway. But I think some of the council systems are quite strict. So, but that's again history for me. So the other thing I think is this whole thing of popularity of work. And we spoke about that. And we spoke about, you know, it's got so many million hits and, you know, or, you know, work that was popular. And I remember in the olden days at Ogilvy, we used to, you know, there were, there were these campaigns that were huge in India, right? I mean, somewhere a lot of people told us that, hey, you know, have you entered bingo for can and I was like, obviously not, you know, and they cleared in my head because like it or not, there's a certain kind of work that wins that can, you know, and, and you can say that shouldn't be the case, it should be Indian centered work, but, but it's the way it is, right? So I would, so it would be silly to expect a bingo to win or, you know, something emotional, something that's, you know, more typical for the world just because it's popular here, it won't win there. You know, so I mean, that is a different game. Yeah, like the India Pakistan Google ad, I mean, it was one of the most beautiful ads and it did so well in India, but, and, and it was sent, you know, in recognition of how popular it was, but it didn't, it won something small at Canada, not really big, but that's the thing, you know, I think it's very difficult for us to accept as Indians that our work doesn't always travel and part, and that's partly, I think because, you know, however diverse the juries are in town, there is a inherent Western bias. I mean, I've seen campaigns like, like, so beautifully crafted TVC in the days when TVC was big, and it's, you know, with a big Hollywood star, which kind of had a big impact in, in making it win. But if you take an equivalent of an Indian ad with Amitabh Bachchan, it's not, I mean, it means nothing to anybody. And no matter how much we say we are being objective, those things do come into play when you're judging. I think it would be ruthless about it. You have to be ruthless and people get very attached seeing, you know, this campaign of the year over here, and why would you not enter it, but, but, but, but it won't win it can, it's as simple as that. Yeah. Anupama? Absolutely, because, you know, we, we need to understand every, while culturally we may be very different. If the, if the jury doesn't understand what they see, or the relevance, they're going to pick it up. Like, I would say from the other side, like, when you go to a one show, or, you know, the American ads, the ones that they, that win in film, typically other fun films. So, and, and they work in that format that 30 seconds is equal to funny, say a joke, get out and for them that ha ha funny wins, right? Now, if I go there and I feel that what is so funny about it, why did it win? But again, that's a cultural thing which works in America, right? So, unlike can, where you have a, it's like a melting pot of all types of people. I just feel it's not the case in the other awards. So, every award is different and for can particularly, it's very important that your idea should, should work for that panel. And more so now, considering that it's not just creative people who are judging, you know, you've got people from Amazon coming and judging. So, you know, it's, it's not just, oh, there are only creative people who are going to come and judge. So it needs to, it needs to work across for something to win, because at the end of the day, it's about votes, right? And how many people, how many do you need to get in for moving it from, you know, nothing to a shortlist and then further on? Just want to add one more thing here that, you know, like, and I'm sure that Amit knows this about this well that, you know, the the juries there, for example, all the South American, the South American countries, when, you know, they sort of vote as one block, they're very clear that they're going to support anything that comes from any of this, whereas Indians were so busy fighting each other, very often we're not going to be fighting for another, you know, entry if it's, if it's not from our agency, I think that, I mean, I'm sorry to say, and of course, there are many exceptions to that. But I think that that kind of a mentality is there, and not only that there is lobby, there is publicizing the work as a, you know, as a a block of countries, we don't do any of that, you know, I think some of what you shouldn't do and it's good, I think some of it is goes, I mean, I mean, the level that it's, which is done is probably wrong. But I just think that as Indians, at least the thing I put on myself when being a jury is being able to explain our point of view, you know, so, so, so very, very, you know, I mean, I think that's, that's the job I put on my head because you're the representative from India or this side of the world in that sense, you know, along with being a normal jury member. So I think, I think put that this thing on ourselves saying that, hey, this was behind the idea, you know, and, and, you know, I remember a lot of ads being big when you explain that this was happening in India. So there was a demonetization idea and what it was and what does it live? I mean, people can't understand that people were dying and standing in lines, you know, for 48 hours to get their own money out, you know, and when you explain that to them, it really helps. So I know what you're talking about. I think that was a slightly older culture too. I would presume everybody here, you know, would, would, would bring the Indian side of the story out. I'll generally do that. So, you know, there's various levels coming to play, you know, the levels are largely filters. So I personally use the vertical levels, you know, so there's the CDs who will largely bring me there. So don't bring me the quantity, right? And then there's, I will try to choose the lessest number of pieces. And then, you know, eventually when we went to, there's also obviously an FCB, you know, worldwide council. And it obviously helps to see at that stage what the Italians are feeling when there are rounds which are verbal and people kind of, you know, you kind of see them and you identify who's saying what on your piece. So there's the Italians, there's the, there's the South Americans, there's the Indonesians even, there's the Brits, there's the Canadians. And then interestingly and importantly, there is the secret ballot. So then the real, and then a lot of people say the work is shit, which is important. So then you get both, you know, if you're choosing to be polite, I guess you get those kind of optimistic views, but you also get the hypersuited views and that's, that's a great kind of a, and then there are pieces which get a huge number of votes and I guess, you know, the part of the vote, right? Majority wins, it pays out. So yeah, that's, that's, that's a great. Mukun, you would like to add something? No, I mean, I think, I think I lost the conversation. It was about how do you internally within the agencies decide? Like I mentioned, like, I think I opened by saying that, you know, like how we, I think the best pieces always rise to the top. And then of course, like, you know, it's about polishing, making it better, going to the creative council. And I think I also said about like, you know, the having more eyeballs on it, the much better, I think nobody is out to kill your work, right? They're all out to make your work better. I think, I think that's the sole understanding of a creative council for me, right? They're not like, you know, they're okay, I'm going to shoot your work. I mean, of course, right, but they want to be constructive about their feedback and they're going to be helpful. And of course, it's up to you how you take that feedback in and how you strengthen the case and make it much, much stronger, right? It's just good to have those opinions and up to you, you take it or not, but it's good to have all the suggestions and opinions on board. So my next question, I would like Shumanthu to start on it, is how to make those case studies, because it's a very important part for any entry to be considered at Kans. You would have been at the, at both the ends, making your own case studies and now judging other people's case studies before sending them out. What is required? What's the secret recipe? So I think that, you know, it's, this is like, you know, you can't stress the importance of getting the case video right. And, you know, I often see, you know, within the agency people, you may have done a great piece of work, but I think the case video just doesn't do justice to it. What you have to keep in mind is that the jury member is watching like, you know, a few hundred, if not thousands of these videos, one after the other. So unless you grab their attention right away, I mean, so this, the, the case video also has to be creative. You have to grab the person's attention in the first 10 seconds. Otherwise, you know, they probably want to move on to the next one without even watching all of it. So your case video is your ad for your entry. So unless you keep that in mind and you make this really creative and hard hitting, you're going to lose the jury and, you know, your great piece of work is going to fall by the wayside. Amit, you would like to add something? I actually think, I mean, that's true and, and, and, you know, how to make a great study case study is adding a one hour session by itself for even longer. Because I mean, like you said, there are like literally we've been taught rules like say it in the first 10 seconds, catch attention, naming your entries is important because when a jury member goes out, then he sees 600 entries. And if he's able to say chalk, bot, chalk, bot, chalk, bot, you know, he remembers that by the end of the day, and that's what comes on top or laugh at that and so on and so forth. But my thing is, is I think it's gone to the other extreme right now where people are making fabulous case studies and we sit through it in the jury house at the end of the day. Idea kya tha? You know, and, and, and, and honestly, there's no idea because it's a fancy case study and you're seeing everything. But what did they actually do, you know, at the end of the day? So I think juries have become more and more cognizant of that. You know, and you are, and I've seen cases in fact, but the other way round with the case study was okay, it could have been better, but you recognize that the jury recognizes the idea that was there and says that, hey, you know, maybe it's not the best case study, but, you know, as an idea deserves something. So I think a lot of people have been, you know, giving case studies out to professionals to make and really, you know, that idea gets lost. The other important thing, like I said, is I think because of Cannes, especially, I think it's important to get the cultural story through. So if you can, you know, use a large part of the case study to tell me something that I don't know and this cultural insight and therefore this idea, you know, that kind of draws people in. I'm jealous of those people because I always work on zero budgets for our case. Internationally, yeah. I've even seen ones from India where, you know, they're so beautifully produced, obviously, you know, money. And I think some network agencies, at least they pool in funds to do this, but, you know, I've never been lucky enough to get something like that. Honestly, you know, we don't get our case studies right. 90% of, I would say, we don't get. I'll tell you also, the reason is there is a cap on the duration, right? And we like speaking and speaking and not coming to the point. And that shows in most of our case studies. So, you know, the reason why we suffer is we think we've done a great piece of work and we'll do it one month before the Cannes. And the reason is outside, you know, if you meet people from the various countries, they spend a good amount of time just crafting those case studies and they do at least four to five cuts of the video itself. And you can imagine a number of times they must be writing that case study and rewriting and crafting it and making it shorter, crisper to the point because, you know, when you're judging and I'm sure anybody who's judge knows that they'll put you in a room and you're watching and you're watching after sometime you're brain dead, you know, it's like things come and things go and you're just watching. So, if you don't get the attention in the first, say 15 to 20 seconds, most of them have switched off or will not get it. And like Amit said, not many people are there as a representative from your country or who even take that owners to get up and say, you know, let me explain what this was. Sometimes, of course, people, you know, question, oh, you are from that country. Can you just tell me what it meant? And then you take that point. But otherwise, if you end up doing it, that also is like, are you pushing for that a little, because that's a separate session when you push for something. So, all those things, I think the problem is we don't spend time on case studies. We think work and that's it. Now, case study we can figure. That's an interesting cultural nuance to India, I feel that even with our holiday homebooks, if you remember, just sitting down day before night and writing down 10, 20 pages of project reports. And then feeling bad about it, that oh, God, if you get it now, work was so good. Yeah. I like, you know, those just want to add to that. I've given old example of something. All the examples I'm giving are a little dated because I am. But yeah. So there was something called I fold that we had worked on some years ago, which was basically a paper saving campaign where basically it was very simple. Like you told people to fold their document or bill or whatever in half or a quarter. And therefore, you know, those days, border phone used to give their bills in like this big A4 size on. So we convinced them, for example, to have the thing and fold it. So it was called I fold. And there was one time where we started working on the case video well in advance, we did a couple of them, which was shit. And then, you know, we came up with this idea that since it's about the whole thing was about folding your paper in half. So what we did was we quote unquote folded the screen in half. So in the first few seconds, you know, this, you sort of see this one side holding on to the other and then entire rest of the video was on only half the screen and the other half was black. So that was it was very true to the idea. And you know, you know, that half asleep, do you remember with your eyes glazed over, you'll notice that there's something different going on and probably pay attention. I think one good example of when I personally did something right. No, I mean, creating a great case study is like telling a great story, right? But now you're telling a story of what you did to a jury member. So I mean, don't be boring. That's rule number one, right? And in India, we have this added layer of having to explain the cultural context and like in India, this, this, this, this and that goes on for 30 seconds. And then this guy switched off, right? I mean, like, how do we say all that and be concise about it and get to the idea faster, right? And like, you know, look at the Australian cases, like, you know, they have, they open on this morning show thing, there's a big PR thing, like, you know, they make the idea feel so much bigger. It's a small idea, but they make it so much bigger, right? We are kind of stuck in a craft of case study, like, you know, this happened, this happened, this happened, like, how do we break the mold and create like a bigger feel in the case study that, you know, truly magnifies your idea? Yeah, completely agree. Keegan, I'm not sure if you heard my question, because I guess we were offline for a while. We're talking about what makes an impactful case study for cancer, and how do you go about it at your agency? I mean, you've got to kill your babies, you know, exactly what Amba was saying. We find it difficult to throw things out. And I guess in India, we are about the the buffet, the Shadi buffet, you know, so I guess to say it in a manner which maybe, you know, what's interesting is I'm guessing all of us on this panel agree. So if the work can be Indian, and we do deliberate things to make the work Indian, and I call it personally exotic for the Goras, the case study shouldn't be Indian. The case study can be Gora basically. So it's suddenly, you know, the case studies also have like a different choice of font, you know, and they look very, they look European, they look Western, they look American. And that's so, you know, we as Indians to win, yeah, it's harder. And we've got to try harder. And you've got to do these typical Indian juga tricks, which I think we all personally very proud about, to be honest. So keep it slim and, you know, keep it big. And like, you know, unboring as Mukund was saying correctly, and definitely use the most relevant and senior most Gora experience professional, I would say, brutally in the system. Let him be or her be your final filter for the case study, clearly, because the person is not part of the logistics to develop the work per se, but the case study churnani bring the Goras in is very free. I think the other thing is, you know, I think you look at it as one case study, but it's not actually if it's 10 different entries and 10 different categories is 10 different case studies, you know, and that's where a lot of people, the jury really gets placed, you know, so, so if you have the same case study, and you put it across over there, you know, for each, I mean, for different categories. So I mean, if your Instagram case study is the same as your outdoor case study is the same as integrated case study is the same. I mean, that's, that's just, you know, and that's something that really, there's wrong also. So I think you'll have to write the case study according to the category that you're doing in and that becomes crucial and sometimes you're entering four pieces in, in, in say promo or four pieces in, you know, activation. And if those four pieces come from four different categories, you'll have to write them differently. You know, you may actually start somewhere for one and, you know, the ending might become the beginning for another. So study for exams the night before we never end up doing those but clearly the amount that we, we keep aside for, you know, there is like when we segregate the monies, there is entry amount, there is work related amount that we spend on the work itself, but the case study amount should be always separate has to be separate because if you don't get a proper editor, if you don't get people who know their job to do those case studies, it ends up looking tacky. If it is an in-house PPT which has been transformed into a case study, it will look like that. Agreed, agreed. That's a nice point. Also, like to ask you, all of you agreed and at some point mentioned that being, sending an Indian entry and winning at an international stage is a task in its own because the jury might not know the cultural nuances, might not have ever seen that ad before as opposed to other international entries. Do you think that at this point agencies can use media better even at the stage when you're launching a big campaign? So apart from the general press releases and apart from the general interviews, could you indulge the media better and maybe talk to international media more frequently so that they know that something out there has happened and they read it there and then just find out? Absolutely. I don't think there's any question on that. Thankfully, most of the network agencies nowadays have started doing this. So if there's a good piece, what they do is they internally circulate it amongst the team members and one email goes across countries, you know, offices. Having said that, there are separate PR people handling for the news outside where you want to put it out of India and not just limit the PR to India itself. Having said that, you know, still that not seeing you, you can't escape that too much. I think there are so many South American pieces that we don't see. So those things will exist. I mean, you can't fight that completely. Also, the thing is that can, you know, many people and this is also something that I'm sure every agency does it differently. There are some people who start their rounds with can and there are some people who end their round with can because they want to ensure that every jury because juries obviously get repeated, then at some point of time, they would have seen the work and finally end up. So I think every creative head has a different style to come to when it comes to can, particularly can. Mukun, you would like to add something? No, I think a lot of times work gets, I mean, that work is seen before it gets awarded. I think whatever forum it is, it's important to find those forums to get the work, the recognition that it deserves, right? Because imagine, like, you know, these guys are going through like 1000 pieces of work and like, you know, I mean, I mean, there's a lot of things like, you know, it might get missed out on, but if you get, find a way to get the work out even before the award show and it gets, you know, recognizing enough places, beat a ad forum, beat anywhere, right? It kind of gives that credibility to the work. Right? I think that kind of adds value. I think this is opposite to that also and the sense of, you know, times that we won, biggest is when the work was the freshest, we knew absolutely no one had seen the work before and they see it for the first time and it just, you know, gets a great reaction versus I know, you know, one person from the industry who actually makes sure that, you know, so if it was a pink jewelry or the outdoor jewelry, everybody got a frame copy of the work at their homes in advance and that could kind of put you off also, right? Or you've, you know, kind of, you've seen it, you've got a defense through it, your mind's been thinking on it. I mean, I think there's a saying, right? You need to increase the surface area of luck, right? And how do you increase the surface area of luck is by showing it to everywhere in every single forum, right? I mean, of course you could get lucky and, you know, some fresh pieces get awarded, but just increasing that surface area of luck, that's it. Kegan and Shimonto. Sorry? Kegan and Shimonto, like, you guys haven't spoken yet about that. Do you want to go? No, no, Kegan go. So, you know, it's, I mean, we are now many years of things going viral, you know, and you made a fair point and I guess everybody would, it's an oxymoron, if you have to activate formal PR, you know, companies, partners, channels, it's, so I'm not sure, you know, so if we are advertising, if we have the power of the video and if even a piece of graphic design can be videoed, can manifest as a video and let's assume people like seeing pictures, whether they are static or motion. I think the work today can be PRed. So most of the work that wins at least gold, should it be the work that actually got famous? I personally think it's a fair, it's a fair yardstick, you know, so, I mean, you know, and then there are other points of view, like, you know, if the work is Hindi language or non, you know, non-universal language, so the work can get viral in India, but is the work really going to go overseas is a question, like, imagine if Lagann was, you know, a film of today, it would have been so-called, you know, broken the internet as one calls it, right, wouldn't really have gone, so even at that time and I, it's many, many years ago, actually 20 years ago, so they had, you know, there were ways in which things got famous, but they personally had to go and lobby it and, you know, stay there for six months and all that in the LA's of the world and the US of the world for the Oscars, right, so what I'm saying is that, you know, there are still examples in the world of viral, we see Thai films, we see Thai films, some of them will be, so there's this Thai brand, there's the funniest work on the planet is Thai and the saddest work where you're going to, you know, really ball your eyes out is Thai and I've seen examples of the work getting viral, so it's a, I have a mixed view here, you know, if, I mean, why activate PR machinery if we are the guys who are meant to make work famous and if this is an awesome category, the awesome stratum of work, it's meant to get famous, you know, so, yeah. Yeah, so I agree mostly with Keegan because I think that even what Amit was saying is true that sometimes when you're seeing something fresh for the first time also, you can have a wonderful reaction to it, but I've also seen that, you know, campaigns which have a buzz going about it, you know, from the word go, you know, tend to win bigger because jury members have been exposed to it, you know, if they've like, they've seen it at their leisure, whereas, you know, not in this kind of pressure cooker atmosphere of the jury room, I think that that buzz going for it does help and but it's difficult. I mean, again, I've seen a lot of the other countries where they have these publications which are given out with their work in it. And at one time, I remember this Loser's archive was the big thing, there's to have a can issue and so much of the work in that book would end up winning. So if there's some way that you sent your work out to them, and they included it, it seemed to have a bigger chance of winning. So there are, there are various ways of doing it, but it's not easy. I mean, just because you want to send your press release out to the international media doesn't mean they're going to pick it up, right? If you have like a really strong corporate communications person in your organization to help you do that, or your international network helping you do that. I think it does help even just putting in a word with people, sharing it with people internationally, if your network with other creative people are on a lot of international degrees, I think it does help. But it's not to say that that's the only way to win. I mean, you can also be the other way where people are seeing this fantastic piece of work for the first time and like are so wowed by it that it totally speaks for itself. But I think more often than not, a little bit of buzz also helps. Okay, we are short on time now, but we have this one or two audience questions, any one of you would like to answer them. So one is, how can a new or upcoming agency applying for CANS for the first time approach the submission process? I think Amit can answer this. Yeah, it depends whether the person applying is upcoming or not. Amit was not an upcoming person. He has experienced it. But still you have like. Yeah, so I think you took the learning that you applied elsewhere. I mean, you've been part of Global Councils, you took that learning over there and you again had been done that for about eight, 10 years while doing it for ourselves. I think there's some nice systems in place and adding systems are coming up in place also. So I think there's a shortlist that has been introduced by Curious, which is quite amazing if you're literally new to it, the shortlist kind of advises you. So before you start entering, you enter your idea to the shortlist and the shortlist has a fairly decent national international jury that kind of advises you on where the idea could go and it plays the role of a council. Again, very interesting, you know, another new thing that came up and I think these are things that are coming up to help the system. So independent agencies obviously don't have an international council, right? But so per person used to be the head of the Gray Global Creative Council. Fabulous guy was part of the journey where Gray went from nowhere to number three on the can list and he started something called the network. So the network is a network of independent creative led agencies, you know, and what they do is they have councils for these agencies. The agency and you're part of the network, then the network helps you, you know, come to the council, gives you the council, gives you international guys, all of that. So there's some interesting solutions floating out there. But yeah, I think it just helps to have done it before even if it's in a new place, you know, obviously you, yeah, yeah. And should they also look at creating creatives for specific categories? I don't think I've understood the question, but I wouldn't do that. I think that's what Keegan spoke about and we can, you know, so there are very, very, very specific categories, you know, five second radio below five seconds, there used to be something called transit media in airports, literally taking that category and creating something for that category. But honestly, I don't think you should, I mean, you should be creating work for awards to start with, you know, I think work should be for brands and solutions and things like that. And, you know, the best work to solve a problem for the client. And then of course you can, you know, package it correctly for the awards. So I mean, I personally would be uncomfortable with that. I would rather have the right work and then decide what are the right categories for it. Yeah, totally. I think that's absolutely correct. And also, you know, one of my previous agencies, we used to have this thing called 40 boxes. And I don't know how many of you have heard of it. It's basically for any brief, you start with the box and by and most probably, you know, by the seventh box, you're literally tearing your hair apart. But the point is that, and it's the same thing for any idea, call it, call it, call it till you feel that you've reached the jackpot. Anyone else would like to add something? No, I think like Amit said, I think doing work for the brand, work for the brief, answering a real problem, coming with the real solution is the way to go. If it happens to be a five second ad for a radio, so be it, right? But you don't start at that point. Yeah. I remember there was a something for the Guinness Book of World Records, and it was the world's shortest radio spot to which Walnut can, which was under five seconds. Well, it was great interacting with you all today. We have run past our time. I would request all of you to give one small parting note about the session, about something you would like to tell the audience. And then we'll call it a day. Starting with Mukul, because now he's posted on my screen. I'd like to just wish all you guys, I mean, it was great chatting, it was a great chat and it was great to meet Amit and Sumanto and Anu after such a long time, right? I know all these guys have entries, Anu doesn't have entries, but whoever has entries for next week can, so all the best. Amit? Yeah, I think, I think get the work right. You know, I mean, that's your biggest problem. Get good work out there, get a fantastic solution for a client, be fresh, use new technology, you know, do the kind of work you believe in, what's right for the brand and yeah, the entry process will sort itself, that's the least of your issues there. Yeah, I think just remember that not all great work travels well to the south of France. So don't get too carried away just because it, it got, you know, 15 million hits in India. Anupama? Oh, thank you very much for having us and it was great meeting all of you guys in this situation that we've been in the last one year, one and a half years. So really, really nice chatting up with all of you and like I, like I believe work on the brands, I think keeping, when you do good work on the brands and it gets noticed automatically, it qualifies for your camp, right? And choose your entries well. Don't try and be with the numbers. Yeah, I fully agree. In fact, taking from there, it's not about quantity. It's there, I mean, if you say I have five awesome pieces, likely oxymoronic, right? So five awesome is not going to say it's not correct. So just don't go for the quantity. Go for the, I think, be really hard on yourself. Go for the one because the one wins the quantity and one piece will win for five and it'll kind of do a clean sweep. I also feel, you know, taking again from what the panelists have said. So either big brand because Patlikali is a thing of the past that is finished, it's past it. So a big brand or if you're doubly lucky, something that is proactive but seems very big brand. Beyond that, you know, the pattern is there are no patterns. I think someone said this, go for gut. I think it's about eventually the magic beyond the logic. It's about what, there's one rule. The only rule is, is it really mind blowing? That's all. Great, great. Thank you so much everyone for your time today. It was nice chatting with you all. Have a nice evening. Thank you so much. Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye, guys. Bye, guys. Bye, see you. Bye, everybody.