 Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler. Today, I'm here in New York City with Masaki Suzuki. Masaki Suzuki is one of the greatest musical creators and producers of our time. He has recorded the entire set of Bach's Sacred Cantatas, which in my collection amounts to, I think, 55 compact discs. He has recorded all of the secular cantatas. These are generally acknowledged to be the most important and best recordings of Bach's cantatas music ever. He is recording complete the organ music of Bach, so he also is a world-class organist, and is recording the complete harpsichord music of Bach works that are commonly acknowledged to be in the top tier. So there's simply no one else I know of with this kind of record of production and quality and dedication and inspiration. He also has recorded a good deal of Mozart, Handel, many other 18th century composers. He founded the Bach Collegium Japan in 1990. He teaches also as a professor at Yale University and does many other things as well. Masaki Suzuki, welcome. Thank you for your invitation. It's a really great pleasure to come here. I have many questions for you, but to start with Bach, St. John's Passion, 1724. If you had to explain to us in its most fundamental sense, what was new in St. John's Passion that Bach did? What was the nature of that innovation? Well, probably no one expected at that time to have that dramatic passion, because the tradition of the bass derived from the reading of the Bible in the liturgy. So it probably, firstly, it was only thought of the Bible reading, but not simply reading instead of the citation, so with some tones. So that was developed to the music, passion music. And by the time of Bach, that was already developed as a kind of oratorial passion. So that was actually the very dramatic experience already. But still Bach has time on the one week before the Easter. The passion of the Johann Walter was still performed. That means really only a major accord from the beginning until the end, you know, just to recite all the Bible texts and so on. That was still performed. So the very first passion of Bach in the Leipzig time was the St. John Passion, which was a really shocking experience for everyone I thought. And in terms of choral work, what is new in that passion? Choral work, yes. Yes, that is a very well. The structure consists of the choir and the as the turba. So the the mass of people, the shouting and so on. At the same time, the choir was also supposed to sing the choral. And so the multifunction all the time, choral. And do you think of St. John's Passion as a Christian work? Or you conduct it as a Lutheran work or drawing from a particular gospel? How do you think about that theologically? Well, from my point of view, yes, St. John Passion, we are doing this work as the as the just a simple general sacred music, sacred work. And we are performing this music not in the liturgy anymore. And we are doing in the concert. So there are plenty of ways to accept or receive or the appreciate this music. So this we are doing simply as the musicians, you know, to to do our best, you know, to to to do the sound wise and text wise, everything as good as possible. So I think the music can work afterwards to the individuals, you know, the according to their situation or thoughts. And your own background is Calvinist. Does that in any way shape how you approach the work? Yeah, that's a really good question, actually. I was asked many times, why are you not Lutheran? But there's almost a kind of predestination in the work. Jesus seems to know what's coming more than in other parts of the Bible. Exactly. Yes. So I actually I am very grateful to be a Calvinist because the Calvin was probably the well, I don't know. I'm not no theologian. I'm no historian, but still the according to my the knowledge Calvin was one of the first reform reformation reformator, the who acknowledged the value of the activity and culture of this world, not only in that world in heaven. So I think the it is very often said Calvin was not so the the sympathy for to the music or culture or server, but that is not true. And he has limited the congregational singing only for the psalm. But the other than church is the outside of the church. He has helped some quite much a cultural activity, for example, publish of the psalm thing or arrangements and so on. So that's he was also helpful to to, you know, the inspire the musical activity in this world. So I think in this way, we can evaluate the old musical or whatever cultural activity in this world. The other kind of under the very big notion as a general grace of God. So when Bach is in curtain in what is not what was East Germany, which was Calvinist at the time, but he's composing mainly secular works. How do you frame that? Well, why did he do that? Oh, that's that he didn't have a chance to compose any Lutheran cantata at the time. So he was really well, he from from one side, he must have been very happy to compose the organ works, instrumental works and also secular cantatas and so on. But probably he wished to do more work to the Lutheran Lutheran world or Lutheran church and so on. That's why he moved to to Leipzig, I think. So let's go back and just talk about your career, your history a bit. So you're you're 12 years old and all of a sudden you hear Carl Richter's recording of Bach's B Minor Math. How did you come upon that? And how did you feel at the time? Well, that was really, yeah, that's a little stupid. But while I was very, very excited, not only with that music, but also I got to the quite big stereo equipment, stereo equipment from my father. And then I was very excited to listen to whatever with the headphone. Headphone was also a very fast experience. And and anyway, that's the B Minor Math was the so fantastic, so wonderful. But I didn't understand anything from the text or from the music. The music was much too complicated. And the only thing is the I played quite much trumpet in the brass band. So that's why the trumpet playing in the that by the German trumpeter, the Adolf Scherbaum, that was really fascinating in the B Minor Math. So I I actually repeat repeatedly listened to the only Gloria. And so, yeah, but anyway, that B Minor Math is really the wonderful encounter with the Bach's music. And how is your musical ear back then? So the Richter recording, I think of it as a little bit, a mix of overblown and stiff, even though it's pretty good, right? No, it's not what people would listen to now. Did you have a sense of that back then? And you or you just with blown away? No, no, no, yeah. Well, for other interviews, I have listened back to that recording recently. And that was completely different. And well, it is not acceptable at all for my years, because he was a character must have been a really wonderful musician. And also he played a harpsichord by himself and by the conducting, for example, for Santa Maria Passion without seeing any scores. That is a really amazing thing. But anyway, that's his way of music making is the well, completely modern, not only modern, but the kind of the kind of the machine like the notes by notes. And so that is really not acceptable anymore. But at that time, that made probably a lot of excitement for the audience. And this is very nice, I think. Do you think there are any older recordings of Bach, say of the B Minor Mass or the passions that have held up before the Dutch movement for original instruments? Yeah. Well, I listened to the, for example, the Mängelberg St. Matthew Passion a couple of times just as an example. That's a very famous example in history. And I think, yeah, well, that is, of course, completely different. But probably at that time, it was a very beautiful performance, I think. And that is quite a romantic tempo is completely slow. But, well, I have no idea how it was accepted. But actually it did work out at that time. So this kind of sense of value about the performance is changing all the time. So I think we belong to the quite different generation. But at that time, it must have been very right for me. And the very stimulating to do the Bach music. And how was it you decided to study early music in the Netherlands? Was it just you wanted to study music and then you learn of the movement? Or you went there because of the movement? No, no, actually, in this way, I was completely fascinated by the organ itself. So that's why I started to play organ. And I got the lessons when I was a teenager before the university time. And then I wanted to study more organ. And my first organ teacher was a Belgian priest, actually, in Osaka. And I told him that I wanted to be an organist. And so listen, Masaki, there is no good organ in Japan at all. So that is no good idea to study organ here in Japan. So I wanted to start to study composition. So I did study composition in the university. That was very good the career, a very good process to understand the music. And then in between, I just happened to meet the harpsichordist called Motoko Nabe Shima, Japanese, the kind of first generation harpsichordist who studied with Gustave Léonhardt in Amsterdam. And she was a really genius person. She spoke more than six languages in Europe. And she has spent quite a long time in Europe. And she came back to Japan and I met her and I got the lessons from her. And that was really the kind of how do you call it, the really the change in my life. And she introduced me to Tonkoukman, who were the schoolmates of her. So they were together in Gustave Léonhardt's class. So I went to Amsterdam and I went to the Tonkoukman concert on the day of my arrival and that was a really shocking world. So fresh and so exciting on the cell. I decided to come to Amsterdam and that was a very, very good decision, I thought. So if you started with organ harpsichord, how was it then you came to conducting? Conducting is actually has been always outside of my idea because, you know, when you perform cantatas or whatever, ensemble music, you know, someone must lead the very possible from the harpsichord as a Bach did and so on. So I did in that way. So gradually I made some ensemble with my brother and my brother's colleague. And the string players and so on. And then we were simply starting, you know, to to perform the cantatas one by one. And I, for example, I gave them some sign or some signature. So my brother Chris says, what I mean, oh, that is not clear. That is, oh, what, which tempo do you want and something like that. So only through this kind of discussion, you know, this I became a conductor. I'm not the conductor. Well, yeah, in a really traditional sense. And we're people telling you, well, you can only do one thing. It's organ harpsichord or conducting. You have to choose one or everyone just let you do. Actually, these three are completely, I think that's the integrator. They easily integrate. But you do all three, right? Yeah. Well, yeah. But the harpsichord organ is, for example, there's a completely different instrument, but still based on the same idea. So to make music and also conducting choir conducting, especially, you know, well, that's exactly the same feeling as you play the fuga on organ. For example, theme comes now tenor, now soprano and something like that. So that's exactly the same. So only thing the choir has a text. So that's a much more, you know, better than the organ, I think. Given how much music you've produced and how consistent the quality is what is it you think you know about productivity that other people do not? Well, I have no idea about other people's but to the well, productivity. Well, that is only the box music is so fascinating. So I can't stop walking simply. So well, well, yeah. Well, I never tried to be productive or whatever. Just only I want to pursue the how to improve our performance, how to realize this and that, the music of Bach and not only Bach, but to the so that is only music is there. So nothing else. If you had to explain what is it about the music of Bach that you still do not understand, what would that be? Well, Bach's music has always together with some kind of puzzles and enigma. So that you can never get an answer to all the all the that's kind of unknown aspects of the Bach, for example, Gustio Fugue, for example, the Art of Hugh, for example, we don't know why he has really written or why what kind of situation it was not finished. And and in the contours, for example, there are plenty of very difficult places to to understand why he did in this this way and so on. And the most of the cases we can find some answers from the texts. But the still it is not so easy to understand everything. And that was very good. How good a sense of the grasp of Bach's mind do you feel you have? Or is he just a complete mystery to you? Yeah, quite much mysterious field, I think. So I'm trying to understand and I'm trying to come closer to Bach's sense or Bach's mind, but actually it is very, very difficult. The more you walk, the more distant you can get. That's really yes. That's true. Yeah. When you're hiring for the Bach Collegium, Japan, of course, they have to be wonderful musicians. But given the extreme productivity demands that will be placed on them, what is it you look for in the people you hire? Well, the most important aspects from musicians is probably how much they can devote to the music. And sometimes how much interest do they have in that music? And so, well, I do, for example, sing as auditions very often. And well, of course, I can I have to judge sometimes in a technical aspect of how good or technical, but not only the techniques are the most important thing is probably their interest and how much they can devote themselves to music. And so, yeah, and yes, that is the most important thing. So I'm very happy to have now our members and orchestra and singers. But they at the very beginning, they didn't have any idea. What is the Bach counter, especially? And then the choir, the choral music or the this kind of ensemble music, how to do that? But the in between during our working together, they have developed a lot. So that is very nice. And they inspired me again. So this kind of vice versa, the inspiration is very, very nice. Do you think Japanese players understand Bach differently? I don't think so. But only thing is the basically Japanese people don't have any Christian background or tradition in the country. So I sometimes I have to explain what the text says and so on. And also this and that text comes from this and that text of the Bible and so on. But this kind of explanation is not possible in Europe, for example, because everything is already taken for granted. So there's no one can really explain about Jesus parables. And so in Japan, I think it's very good to to have that kind of a chance, you know, to to talk about that things. And and also the German text is, of course, basically impossible in Japan to understand immediately. But that's why we need the translations or we provide all the time Japanese translations to audience and also for the orchestra people, all the musicians and but this kind of a translation work is a part of a very important interpretation work because, you know, we read the Bible, for example, the only through the translations, no one in this world, you know, raised the original language in Old Testament, New Testament. So so actually, in order to make this kind of translations, you know, we have to think on that or consider what it really means and so on all the time. So I try to make quite some translations of Bach's cantata, some 20, 30 cantatas I have translated myself myself. But it's it's a very time consuming. That's why I gave up recently. But the but we have very good colleague to make good translations. So with your Japanese background, do you think you approach Christianity differently? I think so, quite different from any other idea. Well, actually, each of the countries have different traditional different approach to the Christianity or whatever religion that I think in Japan is a quite different from Korea, for example. In Korea, as much more Christians now, it is said that the 40 or 50 percent of the population of the Christian, but in Japan is always says that the only 1 percent of something, but in spite of that, the Christian culture is very well known in Japan, so everyone knows what Christmas is. And even Easter, they did quite known nowadays. And but there's very not so many Christians in Japan. And I thought formally that that is a big, big, the negative aspect. But I think that's the it is not possible really to count who is a Christian, who is not Christian. And, you know, when we perform the Saint Matthew Passion regularly on the Holy Week and every year, we since 20 years, we are doing. And for now, the more than we have regularly a three performance in Holy Week in the same venue. So the something like five thousand and six thousand people are coming for that performance. And that is a that is amazing thing in comparison with the number of the Christianity in Japan. So actually, I think that quite many people can appreciate that kind of message from the Bible as well, not only the Bach music, but from Bible. And so on. So that is my hope. Do you ever think back on what is called the Christian century in Japan, which ends, I think, in 1639, when a lot of Japanese convert to Christianity fairly rapidly, but then Christianity is suppressed. Is there some alternate history where Japan becomes more or less a Christian country or could that never have happened? No, that has never happened. That was a completely stopped, I think, the tradition wise. But it's very interesting that there are quite quite many evidence that before the 1639, the the quite many churches were built by the missionaries and from from Europe and also the in Azuchi, for example, where the Oda Nobunaga has a base, the very close to Kyoto. That was quite many churches and also quite some organs at that time. So and also boys, the missionaries were sent twice, at least, from Japan to the pope in the room. And in between that, it took a couple of years to reach Europe. And in between the some of them practice organ on the ship. And then when they arrived at Avora in Portugal, the one of them could play organ immediately and everyone was astonished. But in this this kind of connection was completely stopped afterwards. That was a very pity. And the Christianity was actually left over only as the hidden Christian. So that was a very interesting history. But the probably it is not possible to to call them Christianity anymore. But that is a kind of mix up with Buddhism. So the recently passed away, the musicologist Mr. Minagawa Tatsuo Minagawa does who has researched about history and found out a very interesting thing. Like, for example, there are still hidden Christians in Japan and in Kyushu area. Right. Yeah. And I heard that they have or they used to have the funeral ceremony combined with Buddhism and Christianity. So there are the kind of double how they call it, the quite big houses or temple like buildings. And in the in the front side, they they do the funeral ceremony according to the Buddhism, Buddhist way. And then in between the priests are supposed to walk around back to the building. And then the while walking, they are all murmuring, this is not true, this is not true, this is not true. And then come back to the Buddhism again, something like that. So this is a really interesting ceremony. So there's a kind of mixture with Christians. And so this kind of hidden Christianity or the Christian people had a very, very difficult and miserable history because they they were completely depressed and also the torture of the many people. And but still they have survived in a way. So that's but not really anymore as a Christian, the proper Christian. Well, I don't know exactly. Well, I can't I can't tell too much about that. But because I don't know exactly. But the anyway, the hidden Christianity is still there. That's very interesting. And you're from Kobe, right? That was originally a Christian center along with Nagasaki. Exactly, because they were port cities that way. Yeah, that is Kobe is one of the most important. After after the reopening of the Japan, so 1868, they they are probably to Kobe and the Yokohama and even Sendai, those the port places, you know, this is very important to accept the any kind of culture from outside, but the Christianity came in and and for example, there is the oldest protestant protestant church is in in Yokohama. So that is that is the end of 19th century. That's really interesting history. How do Japanese audiences for classical music, say in Tokyo, differ from New York audiences? Well, probably a little different American audiences are more friendly, I think, more friendly and more easier to to excite, to to be excited by the performance. And as if they look like more inspired directly from the music and also musicians. And in Japan, Japanese audiences, they sometimes they they know very well about the repatri and and very cooperative, but they at the same time, the a little bit. Well, not not so excited immediately, probably the inside is very excited. But well, we Japanese people don't express directly from the from inside to outside. That is we all we were all told in the school, for example, that is the rule, that is not the intellectual demeanor or something like that. What do you think of the hypothesis that Japanese audiences, they have a special interest in iconic works such as Beethoven's Ninth and there's an insistence that they hear the best or experience the best and single out very particular things. Do you think that's true? Yeah, Beethoven nine is very special being here and especially in December. And so they are more than 100 performances in between nine only in December. So the chorus at the end has special meaning. Japanese people, do you think chorus, the chorus, the lyrics to the core ending of the ninth? Yeah, that's of course, that is very special meaning, not only for Japan, but I think that's musically the very big events. But in Japan, there are quite some of the projects who gather the people, more than 10,000 people to sing out the Beethoven nine at the end. So that is quite a beloved event, but that is no more musical event. I don't think so. Why do you think Bach's larger vocal works were neglected for as long as they were until Mendelssohn, right, in the 1820s? They're a bit forgotten. The keyboard music is not forgotten. What happened there? Well, I don't know. There are a couple of different aspects. For example, the passion music of Bach, the Saint Matthew or Saint John, you need definitely a continual playing, for example, but that idea was already distinct, already completely extinct by the time of Mendelssohn. So Mendelssohn has reformed or made a harmonization for the continual part. He has performed some cantatas as well, but he always provided the parts for the brass section or the wind section to fulfill the harmonization on the continual. So that's the improvisation. Improvisative parts of the continual can could not understood anymore by the time of Mendelssohn. And also the it was much easier for them to understand the passion music just as the storytelling. So so that Mendelssohn has performed the Saint Matthew passion only mainly the older recitives. So he avoided for his first performance, he avoided the nearly all the areas, even Ausliebe, that he didn't perform the first time. And and he his intention was to to follow the story as directly as possible. So in that way, the probably it was thought just like the opera production. So so it so the Mendelssohn was the indeed that has revived the Saint Matthew passion. And but actually that performance is completely different to what we are now doing. How many times do you think Bach heard his own larger scale masterworks? Saint Matthew's passion be mine or mass? No, there is no evidence that he has any performed B-man or mass. So that he never heard it. He never heard it. He never heard only in his mind. Yeah. And so much passion he has performed at least the three times, I think the Saint John is four, four times or five. I'm not sure. But anyway, that's only a couple of times he has really hard and performed his own masterworks. Now, your music is largely online. Not all of our listeners are experts in the music of Bach. But if you had to recommend two or three cantatas that you've conducted a place for them to start, where would you send them? That is very difficult, one of the most difficult questions. Well, that depends on the situation, what you you have the experience in the past in the experience. And yeah, of course, but the from my side is the one of the my favorite contata is, for example, let me let me see. Wachota of the Wachota of the 140. Yeah, 140. That's a good one. That's a very, very good one, of course. And I'm Festerburg 80. Is it going to work out? Well, I don't recommend that as a for the first beginner because that is too complicated. And and well, for example, cantata number eight, Leapster, Yezu, that is a really wonderful music. So that's so you can really use it as a BGM background music as well. And that is really comfortable to listen. And or the Cantata 102, this, the Her, Dinah, Augenze and Dinah, Glaubens to that is one or two is the that's a very interesting structure. The choir has a two double fuga. And that is a really interesting structure. And also the Aria was very dramatic. So or well, otherwise, plenty of examples. In the world today, how many top cure organs are there for playing the music of Bach, where you can really do it? Justice, you said there were no good organs in Japan or you were told this at that time? Yes, yes. How many organs of the highest quality are there in the whole world for you? Whole world. Yeah. How many? That's a really difficult question. But it was totally depends on what you think beautiful or what you feel good. Because the I prefer personally the historical organs, historical, the original organs like in the North and Germany or France or wherever. And well, my really favorite organ in the world is a chronigan. That's a Matini Kirk. This is a built by the Yohan Kaspar, Shinitaka. And where is that exactly? The chronigan is in the north part of Groningen. Groningen, yes, yes. And that is really wonderfully restored. So that's quite much depends on how it's restored as well, because the organ is had a very long history. So in between, for example, the 19th century is the all over the historical organs were once renovated according to the musical taste of that time. So that's all the nearly all the organs were the ones that romanticized the completely romantic way that changed. So the in 20th century, most of the organs were re renovated to to to to bring them back to the original situation or 18th century or 17th century. And so how to restore is a really key point, actually. So, for example, this Matini Kirk in Groningen organ, that is the that originated the Shinitaka organ. So the original from from the very original style is very, very good. But that is beautifully restored by Jürgen Ahrens, one of the most important organ builder in Germany. And how was it that organs improved in the time of Baroque music and Bach so that he could do what he did? Because it wouldn't have been possible a hundred years earlier, right? Yeah, the organ, so all the organ building have been all the time so changing according to the time. And so Bach's time, the second half of the 18th century, this the the the it is the organs around Bach's area. So Zaksen and Türingen have a quite different character from North and North and Germany or Italy or France and so on. And they had quite many stringy stops registered, stringy sound, to quite with contains a lot of high overtones. And that is very close to the string instruments. And that is very, very interesting. So that kind of character is very important for the Bach's organ music, I think, basically. And but the Bach's, as I said, there is no organ extent from that time to play all the Bach's organ music on one instrument. So actually Bach's idea of composition is always surpassed out of the organ situation. Here's a question from a reader. Quote, how does he explain the, to me, surprisingly large number of Japanese organ students at top conservatories in Europe? Now there's so many, not so many Japanese. Not so many, you think? Yeah, yeah. Now much more Korean. Korean. Yeah, well, basically, I think nowadays in Europe, much less numbers of Japanese students at the in in in generally speaking. And but the for such a, you know, there's a famous conservatory like Paris or Rome or Vienna and so on. There are still quite quite some, I think, but the much less than before. And that was probably because the old Japanese musicians can get job now in Japan, so they don't have to really go to the Europe anymore in terms of getting job. But I think it's still very important to go on to live in Europe once. If you would like to be to be the musician of the European music. So it is very important, I think. Once you arrived in the Netherlands, of course, you've been to Germany many times earlier on, how did that change? How you understood the music of Bach? Well, before I came to the Netherlands, actually, I didn't have any knowledge. I didn't have any understanding. So it's only the feeling. And I loved organ and I loved harpsichord. And but the only thing is when I when I started learning with Tom Kaufmann, you know, what I had done in Japan was not wrong. So that's I thought that I was really lucky. I thought and but so firstly, well, well, actually, I was completely ignorant before before I came to the Netherlands about Bach music or about Bach and whatsoever. And so the everything was so new to me. So the old knowledge. Tom Kaufmann had so many books and so much knowledge and he really, you know, talked many things like a machine gun. So many. Well, that's but the after that, well, I learned I read some books and so on a little bit more objectively. Then I became to the conclusion that I I'm good. I can say myself, you know, something like that. But if you go to the Bach Church in Leipzig or go to Ornstadt mentally, emotionally, does something fall into place? Or do you just look at it and say, oh, that's nice? Well, for example, in St. Thomas Church in Leipzig, the I was very happy to be there for the first time ever. That was still the air time and it was really the in front of the church, there was a huge statue of the Bach and that was so big. That's not something. But actually the the St. Thomas Church itself is the well, now there's quite a harder that that is the inside is quite different from the time of the Bach and the well, I was very happy to be there. But not really, you know, see how they call it, I can't make any any connection from the heaven through that church. You know, that's so anyway, that's the Bach can be anywhere. I think I thought that the Bach can be anywhere in the world. So that is very important places. And but now it's quite different in the building where it's structure wise and the everything is different so you can never feel the original atmosphere there. What do you think of Glenn Gould's highly unusual interpretations of Bach? Well, the Glenn Gould, I love the Glenn Gould performance very much. And the that that is not not so unusual. That's if you try to to make articulation and also to make the some kind of effects like the Hubs code and organ and so on. The the I thought it was quite natural conclusion that he did in that way. And like and the there's one or one or two, the recording of organ playing, his organ playing, that was a little strange, I think. But piano, the, for example, Goldberg variation, that's a really fabulous recording, I think. What do you think of the view that some of them are wonderful? Like the partitas, the English suite in a minor, but say the well tempered clavier, it just seems like swooning and the tempos are too arbitrary. It's not charming to me or really some of them seem to not work at all. Yeah, could be. I don't know so many different recordings, but the at least for the Glenn, the Goldberg variations, that was very fast one, especially, yeah, and sometimes the tempo is very quick. And I can't I can't do that in that way. But that that's a very fascinating performance, I think. The Brandenburg Concerti, what is it exactly that makes them such a major advance over the music that came before? Because they seem to come out of nowhere and they're so fully blown. The solos are incredible, right? The ensemble work. Yes. I think that towards the Bach's intention to compile the six concertos as one collection, but probably they by then he has composed quite many concertos with the and I think that is very simple. Call the, you know, the New Yorker Bach, especially still Michael Morrison has written about that brandenburg concerto that was a symbolized symbol that he his intention was to represent the the social hierarchy to the number one brandenburg. Number one is with two horns. That is very, you know, the usual symbol for the court, the dignity of the court. And then second one is the trumpet solo, overworld recorder and violin. Those four instruments are supposed to be performed by any Stattpfeifer. So they had to master all these instruments and so on and so on. And the number three is very interesting, but the number three is this number was made by Bach himself. And that is three violin, three viola, silly celli. So that's everything dominated by three. But he didn't compose a second movement. So that is actually movement was supposed to also three. But the second one is missing and only one bar in the middle of the page. So he clearly intended to to fulfill him by by himself to improvise that the second movement. So that was the intention for the Berlin the the kind of the how to call it, recruit the he intended he wanted to to dedicate to the Berlin graph. And then and then if you hire me, then I can improvise for this movement and something like that. What is it in contemporary classical music that you enjoy? Contemporary music. Well, yes, I enjoy sometimes, but probably there are plenty of other specialists for that kind of contemporary music, I think, but what do you listen to? Well, the I don't know what is the contemporary, but the probably I listen to the Stravinsky, for example, that's one of my favorite composer. And I did actually I made even one CD of the Prussian Ella and so. And the even even more recent one like Takemitsu and that is very beautiful. So but sometimes I can't understand what they are intentioned. So sometimes they're very difficult. Very recently I was I used to be the student for the composition. And at that time my teacher was Akio Yashiro, who has studied in the Paris. And he has passed away when he was the 46 years old. That really while still I was a student at that time. But he has composed a wonderful symphony and the piano concerti and so on. And very recently I have performed his symphony for the first time in my life and with the Sapporo Symphony Orchestra. And that was great, great pleasure. And there's a rhythm called so interesting. And so the structure is quite classical. So his way of composing was in a way conservative. The according to the very classical structure and also rhythm pattern and so on. And they but the sound itself is completely well, new, I mean, atonal music. So it was a little difficult for me to to enjoy or that kind of sound. So but the it was wonderful. Well, wonderful experience. What is it you like in popular music? Popular music. I again, as I don't know what the how what kind of definition of the popular music. But the well, I like some the songs sing us like the Mariah Kelly, for example, and also the Whitney Houston and so on. Those things are really wonderful music. And so they are really good. You know, they have seen us. And also so kind of the the texts are also very kind of to to how to cheer up the people. And that was a very positive aspect all the time. So that was very, very nice. Sometimes in Japanese popular music is a we we call them the one of the traditional traditional Japanese popular music called Enka. Enka means that is the songs for the remorse and also the sometimes reglets and so on. Sometimes the all the time the very often Japanese popular songs have that kind of texts which describe the negative aspects of our experience. And I find it's a little difficult, not difficult. I'm a little pity. What's your favorite Beatles song? Beatles Beatles Beatles Beatles Beatles. I don't know much about that. Yeah, that's Beatles really, I don't know. But the I when I was a brass band, you know, we played some Beatles arrangement for brass band. And that was the that was a yellow Submarine. And yeah, one of one of the Beatles songs which are they had a very top the Piccolo trumpet was the as a feature. Penny Lane, right? Penny Lane. Yes, that's very good. That is my favorite. When you're conducting and recording, what is it you're thinking about? You have to concentrate completely on the music or does your mind wander at all or how is that for you? Not at all. Not at all. Well, basically, I can't think anything other than other than music. Then what is that? Yeah, that happened in that bar. And so even I can't think of the next bar. So the only thing that I always concentrate in what's coming next, what's coming next, something like that. And the and also the the purpose or aim of that that part of the music. So, you know, what kind of atmosphere must be realized? And so that is most important things. And you're never distracted by physical troubles, like I'm tired of standing or anything. Well, well, no, actually, no distraction. Only for the rehearsals. You know, when I start rehearsals, sometimes I feel today's I'm very tired. But during the rehearsal, I always fresh up. So that's no problem anymore. That's during the big because of the music. You know, I always I can get energy from that. And how much do you need a score to conduct? How much? Well, some people conduct without a score. It's much harder. Do you need a score or you use a score? Oh, yeah, of course, definitely. I always use the score. I never, never do the anything by my heart because that is not necessary. And it just takes up more brainpower for no purpose. No, actually, you know, for pianists or violinists or singers, for example, they maybe they must memorize all the text or whatever. And for pianists, most of the pianists are too busy to see the score. So that's a day, of course, must memorize everything. But for conductors, there's no reason to to memorize, actually. So just like Anselme said, you know, and I think the and also choir, choir people in the of the sacred music, not in the opera scene whatsoever, but they must keep the scores all in hand because, you know, this by by memorization, you know, just the the your memory, the music, how do you call it? Your understanding of the music are changing all the time because you know, to to to to realize this and that notes and the text and so on. Without mistakes and so on. Then you must take different energy to keep up that. But what we should do is only to make a music to make a sound. So I think the other than the operas, generally, generally performances of the I think it is better to have the scores all the time. You just go back and listen to your old recordings for fun or it's finished. You're done and you move on to the next thing. Yeah, basically, I want to always to move on to the next time. Never, never look back, but sometimes I will told to do that because I have to choose the content of this and that thing to make another program or these are like to make the recommendation of the content and so on. But basically, I don't look back at all. If you have, say, at least two recordings of Saint Matthew's Passion, I think they're about 10 years apart. Yeah. So when you did the second was your feeling, I just want to do something different or you had heard the first and you thought, no, that's wrong. I need to correct it. No, no, no, no, just different visions. That's only, you know, each CD, each recording, never, never, none of them was really perfect. So I always want to do once again like the live live performance. So if I have a time, I'd like to do all the content of once again. But then the after all, then I probably will want to do once again. So that's why there's a never ending story. But the first Saint Matthew Passion is the first recording was the I have nothing to regret about the in between we have the much better. We have improved in not only the technically, but also the understanding of the Bach and all the members, choir member, orchestra member, have all developed quite much. So that's why kind of as a milestone, I think they're very good to do once again. And if I could live another 30 years and then probably I will do once again, Saint Matthew Passion. You have one of the best known recordings of Handel's Messiah. But as you know, there's literally hundreds of recordings of the Messiah. You go and listen to some of them before you record to make sure yours is different or you just figure it will come out different. Do you listen to old ones like Beecham for inspiration or how do you approach the musical past? That is the sometimes I need to listen to the others recording of the older one or the other kind of reference, but basically I don't listen to. Well, I'm trying not to listen too much at this recording. That was too much influence. And I think the make recording is very interesting because that is a quite important experience for all of us, all of our colleagues. And during the recording session, many things happens and not all is very easy. And so, but during that recording sessions, we all take that music into any cells in our body. That is really interesting. And for example, that the Messiah recording is a long time ago, but during the recording session, the couple of our colleagues, mother or father or spouse that they have passed away or something. And also my wife, the mother, has passed away just when we finished recording as if she has waited for that moment. So that kind of memory is always coming back. And so it is really wonderful experience to keep going with the recording session. Session recording, that's very nice. As you must know, Apple has recently acquired BIS records and you've done so much of your work with them. Will that change how you approach recording projects? Well, actually, we don't know yet what's happening now. So well, I'm so happy to to be working with the BIS all the time since 30 years now. And so I really hope that we can go on in more or less a similar way. And we have a really wonderful connection, the relationship with this company. So more people might hear your music because Apple will put it higher in the algorithm. Right. What do you mean this? Well, let's say you're listening to music through Apple services and you just type in Bach, you don't know what you want. I would think it's more likely that Apple puts you at the front because they own the rights to that music and that more people will hear you. I'm just guessing. Yeah, maybe, yeah, maybe that is what, yeah, probably hopefully, yeah. So it could be good for you. Yeah, that's very nice. So you're now at 67 years old and you first heard Bach when you were 12 years old. That's 55 years of listening to Bach, playing it, conducting it, recording it. Over so many years, how do you think it's affected you emotionally or spiritually or philosophically? How are you different? Internally. Wow. Well, I'm getting older now. So the end of Bach is always there. So, yeah, well, I've never thought in that way. The Bach is my life, actually. So, you know, so so familiar. As if I am living inside of the Bach's music. So I can never judge from outside. Um, so, yeah, well, actually, it is not the thingable to to live without Bach's music or without music. And so that is that is my life only. So last two questions. First, what is your favorite pizza in New Haven? Pizza. Well, well, to perfectly, to be honest, I I didn't get any pizza. Very sorry. It's very good there. Yeah, I know. That's very famous. Yeah. But, well, I don't like pizza so much. Very sorry. Last question. What will you do next? Now? Now. Well, after this project with Yale and Juilliard, now we are rehearsing of the handles, oratorio called L'Alegro, Pensloce et Moderato. That's a very interesting music. And but the after that, the let me see. Now, next project is, well, a couple of organ concerts in Japan because of the the in Cuba in the showing chapel, the where we have we have made all the CDs recording. And that organ that's built by the French organ builder called Marc Gardner, that was exactly 40 years jubilee this year. So that's why I will give a couple of concerts there. And so that is actually starting point of my whole career. So that is really important events. And after that, I'm coming back to to Europe to make another volume six or seven days of the organ series in Hroningen. And then I will make a tour with the orchestra with Age of Enlightenment with the Christmas Oratorio, all six parts. So that's really exciting. And the next year, January, we are going to perform Brahms to its requiem in with a billion instruments in Japan and to make a recording. That is really exciting. I look forward to that. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much.