 Hi everyone and welcome to our Ask a Psychiatrist live stream where we have the honor to talk to Dr. Bradwin today about anxiety disorders and what we can do to optimize our wellness. Specifically, we will be touching upon general anxiety disorder and panic disorder as well as social phobia, also known as social anxiety, and then we have the opportunity to talk about the intrinsic practice, which is a psychological literacy program that could be useful to enhance your ability to experience happiness. So with the live stream beginning, I'm very excited to welcome you and I invite you to deeply engage in our live stream today by leaving your questions, comments, or thoughts in the chat box to the right. And if you're watching a replay, then to leave your comments and thoughts in the comment section below. And with that, I know that some of the topics might be quite heavy. So I do encourage you to take all the time you need, step back, grab a cup of water, do whatever you need to do to feel comfortable and safe. So thank you again for tuning into our very first Ask a Psychiatrist live stream featuring Dr. Bradwin. I will just give a brief introduction to the plan for today, the introduction to myself, Dr. Bradwin, and then we're going to jump into the content. So what you can expect today is a very interactive discussion about anxiety, social phobia, and panic disorder, as well as the intrinsic practice. And with that, I will be repeating that throughout the live stream, as I know many of you are joining us from around the world, which is very exciting. And I want to give you guys an opportunity to kind of situate yourself about where we are in our conversations today. So again, thank you for tuning in today. My name is Monica, and I am a clinical neuroscience graduate student with a passion for psychiatry, educational, and outreach initiatives and advocacy. I'm also a Psych2Go team member. I've been very grateful to be a part of Psych2Go for the past few years, where I have the opportunity to chat with the community, answer your questions, and make psychiatry and psychology accessible to all. And with that, this is my first live stream. I'm very excited, and I hope you enjoy. So with that being said, here is Dr. Bradwin. Hi, Monica. Hi, Dr. Bradwin. Very happy to have you here. Well, thank you for the invitation. Yeah, I'm very, very excited. We have over 1,000 people joining us, so. Oh, that's great. Yes, already. I'm sure many of them will be joining later on as well. So I'll begin with an introduction for the whole community to learn more about Dr. Bradwin's amazing work. So Dr. Bradwin is a psychiatrist trained in medicine at the University of Sherbrooke and psychiatry at McGill University. He is a professor emeritus and ex-dean of medicine at the University of Ottawa, founding dean at the Ottawa Shanghai Joint School of Medicine, and visiting professor at the Shanghai Jiao Tong University School of Medicine, and is presently a professor of psychiatry at the University of Montreal. His research interest has been the field of anxiety disorders, and he has since expanded his work to integrate biological and psychological approaches to treat these anxiety disorders. His work has been shared in over 350 educational media interventions, and Psych2Go is so grateful to be a part of one of them. We hope that these educational media interventions like these help spread positivity and understanding about psychiatry as a field and to increase the accessibility for us all. So thank you, Dr. Bradwin, for joining us. Thank you for inviting me, Michael. I'm very excited to jump right into the questions that we have received, starting with the questions relating to general anxiety disorder. So the first one is from Greta, who commented on our YouTube. Greta asks, for some of our community members who might not know, can you tell us the difference between just experiencing anxiety symptoms and anxiety disorder? So really talking about this distinction between this common feeling of worry that I'm sure many of us experience versus when it warrants something a professional to intervene, for instance. Yes. So I think the easiest way to make the difference is how the intensity of the anxiety, the type of the anxiety, and how much it affects our life and our functioning, our well-being and functioning. So if we backtrack a little bit in terms of understanding the differences between the anxiety disorders and how they may differ from one to another, there are some simple, we could say guidelines to make the difference. Among all of the anxiety disorders, and when you say anxiety, you also mean fear, worry, tension, excessive negative emotionality. If you see a bit, if you understand the difference in symptoms, then you can understand how they have been classified and how this leads to a disorder or a category of disorder. So first, if there is the occurrence of panic attacks, right? So panic attacks is a sudden experience of high anxiety with fear of losing control, fear of dying, with many physical symptoms, including difficulty breathing, being dizzy, having nausea, and they happen very suddenly. They reach a peak, sometimes they can last for 20 minutes or more, and then they come back, they come back, they come back. So that is very, very characteristic of panic disorder. So the occurrence of panic attacks that come back and that after a while become a source of fear of having another attack. So that's called anticipatory anxiety. So typically, you know, I experienced my first panic attack out of the blue for no reason, and it's so bad, it's so frightening that I'm very afraid to have another panic attack, and I become very afraid to have a panic attack in a situation, to be outside, to be driving, to be in a classroom. So I'm so afraid to have the attack in this environment that I avoid going to this environment. That's when we speak about agoraphobia. So it's panic disorder with the fear and the avoidance of going places, so panic disorder with agoraphobia. So that's one type of disorder, about 4% of the population, not uncommon, starts around adolescence and peaks around 20s and 30s, and then it can continue for a long time. So that's panic disorder. Then you have a form of anxiety, which happens mainly with social contacts. So it's not worrying about things, or not being tense all the time, or it's not having panic attacks out of the blue, it's being very nervous in connecting with people, talking to people, doing things in front of people, speaking up in a class, speaking up in a meeting, making eye contact. So that is characteristic to social anxiety disorder. So typically it starts fairly young. It may start with what we sometimes call shyness, but it's very excessive, it's excessive. And it continues, it continues, and then it can become worse and worse and worse to the point that people avoid many social interactions, so social interactions in social settings like going to meeting friends and parties or professionally or generally. So that's social anxiety disorder, very different from panic disorder and agoraphobia. With panic disorder people say, yeah, I'm afraid of a panic, I like to be with people, and I would like to be with people more, but I'm afraid to go out because I may get a panic attack, but when there's people around I feel better. So that's the difference between panic disorder and social anxiety. Social anxiety is the people, hard to be with people. So then you have the other category which is characterized by excessive worry. So that means always thinking about the most minor things in life and constantly thinking about them and being worried that something bad may happen. If there's a bill to pay the whole month before having to pay the bill, it's constantly thinking about everything that's with nervousness and with worry to a point that is much more intense than the average person who wouldn't think even twice about all these minor things in life. And it's felt in nervousness, but also nervousness with irritability, tension, difficulty relaxing in general, muscular tension, headaches, sometimes trouble breathing, not like doing a panic attack, but never feeling quite well, not sleeping well. So that's what is called generalized anxiety disorder. So the core feature is that worry with all the other symptoms. So that's the difference between the main anxiety disorder. Panic disorder characterized by panic attacks and with fear of having them. Social anxiety is nervousness in social situation and generalized anxiety disorder is that very excessive worry with a lot of negative emotionality, irritability, and tension. Yeah, that's a really, really good way, like a nice summary for people to quickly understand. And I just would like to also ask for those who kind of suspect that they might have one of these disorders. What would you recommend these people to do, especially those who might not have access to psychiatrists and psychologists, which unfortunately is a major problem in the mental health field today? Yes, well, the first thing is to get an evaluation and for panic disorder and also generalized anxiety, many, most of the family physicians, for example, or primary care providers can make the difference between the two, can also detect this problem where there's still a challenge in social anxiety disorder. It's often not well detected and also people who suffer from it. They're afraid to ask for help and connect more and more with people to get that help. But for panic disorder, generalized anxiety, primary care professionals, family physicians, are able to detect and make the diagnosis. Do you have any thoughts on how you can encourage those to take that first step to reach out for help? Because I know that sometimes it can be quite difficult and that's why there's a large leg between when someone truly feels a distress and actually going to do something about it, you know. Yes. Well, the first step can also be psychoeducation. There are many websites out there, good, you know, very legitimate websites where there's description of these anxiety disorders. And one can start by accessing the information and start to recognizing themselves. There are sometimes some self-assessment, like scales that can be used for generalized anxiety, even panic, social anxiety. So that's the first step is to get information there. But reach out, reach out to primary care givers and so that's because that's the first entry point, eventually to get a confirmation that that may be the problem. And then eventually accessing the treatment, which can be medication, it can be psychotherapy, right, can be combined interventions. The first thing is to just reach out, reach out. They are in many, many jurisdictions, they are now entry points into primary care in the system where a choose to these first evaluations, self-detection and psychoeducation that leads to access to the professional. And do you have any resources on the top of your head that you think are quite reputable and accurate for the community member to access, should they wish to do so? Because we can definitely add them in the description box below. Yes. Well, it depends where they live. In Canada, for example, there's anxiety Canada. There are also some provincial websites in the US. There is a website through the National Institute of Mental Health or the American Association of Anxiety and Depression in the UK. In the UK, many of the healthcare there, they have very good websites, the official government websites with very good information on anxiety disorder, same thing in Australia. So it's basically going through the official websites and others like anxiety Canada. Yeah, that's great. One thing I may say, though, because and I think it's an important piece of information that anxiety disorders often start early in life. If we take a social anxiety disorder, it's often childhood, even around primary school. Generalize anxiety can be a bit later, but it's still early. Same thing with panic disorder. So they are often the starting point of suffering and problems and complications. So what we typically see is the onset, the start of an anxiety disorder with time, more and more suffering and more and more discouragement and difficulties in life that can lead to depression. And that suffering, both the anxiety and eventually the depression, can also lead to some seeking relief to substances, typically alcohol, cannabis, and so on. Sometimes the challenge is that when one goes through that whole sequence of the primary anxiety disorder, eventually the depression and using substances. And at that point, it can become a confusing picture of what is the main problem? Is it the substance used, the alcohol, cannabis, and so on? Is it the depression? Is it the anxiety disorder? Studies have been very, very clear on that. Studies that look at course and see what happened when the first symptoms appear. Most of the time, the great majority of the time, is that you first have a problem with anxiety, then you get a problem with depression, you get a problem with substances. So if at some point you suffer from all of this, look for the anxiety disorder of the beginning. And that is very important because if you seek help for substance or with depression, the core problem, the primary problem sometimes never gets dealt with and can reappear again. So that's an important piece of information. I see. I think that was also the distinction made between the DSM4 and 5, between the axis 1 and axis 2, etc. Was that it? I don't quite remember, but I remember one being the primary sort of diagnosis and then there are some that just compound it. Yes, that's right. So that's the axis 1 mainly, so which is the axis of the disorder. axis 2 has been what is the personality who experiences that. But even purely looking at the axis 1, when there is a number of problems that include anxiety, depression and use of substances, very, very frequently it's the primary problem is anxiety and the secondary problem can be depression or substance use or eventually depression and tertiary complication can become the substance because it's to self-treatment, to relieve the suffering. And at that point, when we always go back to seeing if anxiety disorder is the root problem, is that the first thing that psychiatrists would target treatment at or the subsequent things first or the most distressing things first? What is the first point? Yes, so it's often the most distressing thing because even though an anxiety disorder might be primary, the complication at some point may be predominant. So the depression may be so deep that it has to be addressed first or the substance use is bad. So it has to be addressed first or conjointly with treating the anxiety. That's why during an evaluation with a professional, much effort is put in understanding the whole sequence of events, the chronology, even starting from who the parents were, how much anxiety disorder in the family, how many of them had other problems such as depression or alcohol use, what medication they may have had to use. And then when did the anxiety problem start? So that means some digging, asking questions more and more on how early the problem started. So that gives a very, very good chronological description of the problem. But also for the person suffering, it makes more sense. It makes more sense. Yeah, I was so shy when I was a kid and so on. And after a while, it was so hard. I couldn't go to school. I couldn't do this. I became really down and that was hard. So I started drinking and so on and so forth. So that understanding of one's history is very useful. And it's also very useful in understanding why we may want to focus more on the alcohol problem right now in addition to the depression, but eventually going back at the root will be very, very useful to feel fully well. Right, makes a lot of sense. And for those who are wishing to just manage the most distressing component of the disorder, so if we're going to specify on anxiety, we actually have a question where Zoe from Discord has asked, how do I lessen my anxious, nervous, worrisome disposition, that kind of compounds with everything else? What is something practical that they can do? Yeah, so going practical, even without knowing what the core problem may be, right? There's still some tools that can be used. So it's useful to look at it at very simple, basic dimensions, the body, the emotions and the thoughts. So at the level of the body, anxiety can be decreased by learning to breathe properly and usually is to use what is called diaphragmatic breathing rather than upper chest breathing, right? Be able to relax the muscles sometimes using a bit of exercise or mind-body techniques such as yoga, Qigong and so on. That can already lessen the suffering at the level of the body suffering itself, you know, a good diet and so on. That's important. At the level of emotions is learning to recognize the various types of emotion, especially to see the difference between negative emotions such as anxiety, fear, anger, guilt and so on and positive emotions or calm, joy, courage and so on. See the difference and start to be able to learn to cultivate the positive emotions and learn some techniques to lessen the stress or even the anger and so on. At the dimension of thought is to understand how our thinking, the way we think can lead to much more fear. So for example, the way we may analyze and give interpretation to things that happen to us, we could come to conclusions that are much more pessimistic or much more scary than to very moderate, you know, balance a conclusion that are much more optimistic and solution solving and that's where in anxiety disorders you have a type of thinking, it's called catastrophic thinking. So the most minute thing that may happen to us, we see it in a way that's going to be a catastrophe, oh my god, this will happen, I'll get fired or I'll lose so much money or lose my friends and so on and so forth and it is a very negative and amplified negative conclusion. So learning this, learning this type of process, thought process in oneself can help in rebalancing but it means practice. It means practice is like learning to play music, learning everything, it can be learned but it means practice. So that's the answer to the question, very simple things, the body level, the emotions and the thoughts, that's very, very simple. It's also at the behavior level, people who tend to be very anxious, socially anxious, tend to avoid a lot, avoid. So it's to recognize that avoidance of social situations, of talking to people or of going places leads to more vulnerability because we avoid, we never tackle, we never try, we never learn to be stronger, courageous and what we avoid becomes stronger and stronger and stronger. So recognizing that avoidance behavior in ourselves is very, very useful because eventually it's to do more events, to be something that scares us. Well, we learn to cope with it, we learn to be strong in a situation, we learn to have courage. So that's another point of awareness that's very, very important. Do I avoid a lot or do I face things? Yeah, I think that applies a lot to, especially the cognitive aspect of social anxiety disorder, because as I was going through some of the questions, Bri actually from Discord has been saying that she is curious as to how to stop overthinking. And I think that really speaks to your point about just not avoiding because I feel like because it can be so difficult, then they tend to avoid and then they overthink and then it kind of could become like a catastrophization sort of element. So definitely very complicated in that end. Well, it's complicated, but it is learnable. We can learn and there are methods of many methods. Many are the substance of cognitive behavior therapy, right? But there's other approaches to where the tools can be learned and the tools are effective. So for example, in social anxiety disorder, in addition to medication, which might be necessary when it's very extremely intense or the biological component is very intense, a simple tool as exposure treatment, right? Which is simply making a list of everything that seems scary, every situation that is avoided, right? And making ranking the list on the least scary, a little bit scary, to the most scary for one to 10, for example, and then getting on a program of trying to tackle going forward, going in situations that are scary and learning to face the anxiety so that we can then learn to calm ourselves and feel strong and feel in control and so on and so forth and do it very, very gently and progressively. It's called exposure and desensitization are many techniques. While this is done, also start to modify the way of thinking to rebalancing. So not coming to the worst conclusion and worse scenario every time. So all this can be learned. All this can be learned. And sometimes it needs to be done with the combination of medication. And that is something that we should mention about medication, psychotherapy and so on. All of the anxiety disorders, even depression, you can try to understand their cause or ideology as being bio, psycho, social. So they can be a biological component. And often that component can even be genetic. And you look at when you do a careful evaluation of family members, parents, grandparents, cousins have it. So you already know there's a predisposition. And that's the biology, like anybody is born with certain temperaments, right? And a certain set of genes that will determine what we will look like, what we will be like eventually. So that's the biological component. And then there's a psychological component that each individual starts to use a way of understanding of himself or self or life that can be optimistic, pessimistic, scary, more courageous and so on and so forth. So that's a psychological component, bio, psycho, social. And social is what can or has happened to us. So in addition to having being born with some predisposition for an anxiety disorder, for example, we may be born in an environment that's quite supportive, you know, and quite even privileged or even in an environment that would not be very supportive and not privileged and even exposes to traumatic events. So bio, psycho, social. So these are the three main components that can lead to some problems and who we are at some point in life experience. So the treatments, and it has to be well tailored to each individual, also can be bio, psycho, social. So bio means diet, exercise and everything including medication, psycho, psychological. So CBT and the various techniques that can be used. And social also social environment who interact with and building a good healthy social network. That's really great. I've always learned about the bio, psycho, social approach and I really appreciated how everything always we're very closely linked to each other. And on this topic of tools that promote wellness, I would love if you would tell us a little bit about how your clinical experiences have motivated you to create the intrinsic practice and perhaps talking about what the intrinsic practice is and how the community members can best make use of it. So out of my clinical practice first, because I specialized in anxiety disorders and depression and a lot of research, and because the treatments were quite effective. So many years ago, there was a point where patients who came to see me and after treatment felt very good, but there was a question of, you know, you feel better, but what would it be for you to feel well and to stay well. So not simply say, you know, we're taking care of the symptoms and you don't suffer from panic disorder or social anxiety. It's more what would be the next step, right, the step of wellness. So then the research team and everything we looked into more what are wellness tools than just treatment tools, right, including also what at the time was called alternative and complementary medicine. So we start to advise a bit of package of tools to enhance wellness rather than just treat the disease. And then when I spend all the time in the administration and leadership, hospital level at faculty medicine, there was a question of how can we stay well when we are in jobs that are high stress and often physicians are in jobs are high stress managers and so on. And how can we stay well when we are in very intense, let's say, academic programs, medical students and so on. So we say, well, okay, maybe we could have a package, we could design a package of tools that may be useful to stay well or be more well, right. And that the tools are based on science or science from psychiatry, psychology, no science, but also from philosophy and the spiritualties. But also, how can there be a collection of tools that can be fully accessible and not commercialized, meaning that anybody could have access to it, you know, pay nothing, because I was still worried about the commercialization of many of the tools or techniques that should be totally free because they've been in the public domain for many years. So for example, commercialization of certain forms of therapy, certain forms of meditation and so on and so forth. And then selling it as a product. So say, no, no, let's do something like have a method with all the tools that people, if they want to invest and put the time in it, could freely access. So now it's through a website, right. And use it and to the extent that they want. And just with no claims that it may be useful. So design the method and put it online. But what we've, you know, it's something that needs to require is effort, because it's like going to a course on any course, right, a course on music, on sport, on golf, whatever, you have to go to the courses and do the homework. So assuming that a person is willing to do that to know oneself and feel better and even feel happier, that can be done online. And we notice looking at who accesses is that a good number of people who access the website to 30% go back more than 20 times up to 200 times. And the age distribution of usage of the site is 18 to 25, 25 to 34. That's what is the most used. So at this point, we assume that the website is useful, because people go back to it and go back many times. And so what we are now starting to do is a formal evaluation of its usefulness and so on. But for anybody who wants to use it now, it's accessible. So it's, and I think you put the link in the description so anyone can use it now. Yeah, I've accessed it myself. And there I remember it was a six step kind of process. Is that correct? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So to make it like a course, but that is experiential, learning about oneself is step one is how to start to set up a practice for yourself of knowledge, practice of wellness with some practical exercises. Step two is how to define what happiness would be for you. So not according to my definition or your definition, but whoever uses a definition based on one's strength, based on one's specific attachments, people, the things what one enjoys, but very importantly, you know, one's values and one's purpose in life. So it's for one to define how what happiness would be for oneself. And then step three is self knowledge, knowing about the body, knowing about emotions, knowing about thoughts, behavior, psychological mechanisms, self concept and so on. It's a step three. And step four is how to know our environment, you know, in more details, who we deal with with the conflicts or the structures and so on and so forth. And then step five is when we start to, based on what we start to know about ourselves and how we want to be happy is to, in a very practical way, in situation by situation moment by moment, how can we envision what it would be if we would use all of our strengths and our certain values on our side to be happy. So in use ourself and understanding ourself in a way that is conducive to happiness. So to start to imagine it, visualize it, feel it. And step six is using techniques to get there, situation by situation. So these are the six steps. That's amazing. So for those who just joined us, you can access the intrinsic practice by clicking the link in the description below and try it out for yourself. I love how it's just structured and it's like self-paced so people can explore it at their own time and hopefully get the benefits. It's very exciting. And from now, since we've already covered anxiety, social anxiety and panic disorder, and we talked a little bit about the intrinsic practice, we'll now move on to the questions that were asked during the live stream. How does that sound? Sounds good. So I'm just going to take two minutes to less than two minutes to scroll through. They might be a bit off topic from anxiety, if that's all right. I see there are some questions. Thank you to Raven Squad 47 for the donation. They have a question actually. They asked if possible, could you please talk about manipulative parents, especially, I guess in the context of experiencing social or mental health challenges in such environment? Yes. That's a very important question because it's a question about how much from my experience as an adult really depends on what I experience and depends on what am I capable, what our cell is my inner potential. So when we're born, we're totally dependent on our environment, our parents and society around for basic needs, but eventually more for emotional needs, for also an understanding of ourselves, also knowing if we are worthy or not worthy, if we're okay, if we're complete and getting support. So when in an ideal situation the parents can provide this type of good affection and not excessive protection, but more a very balanced and supportive relationship, then we start to recognize easily in ourselves that we are worthy, we're complete, we're okay and we can use all the potential that we may have in us. So further potential to walk, to speak and so on and so forth, but eventually all the other potential that may be more psychological or emotional potential, even having courage, feeling secure, feeling confident and then it's up to us. We may use it and do the most because if you want to get somewhere in life or do what we aspire to do, it still takes work and discipline and so on and so forth. Now, there are some situations very often that the parents are not ideal. They themselves may have difficulties, they may have problems, some may be mean and manipulative. So what it means is that this supportive environment we don't experience and this capacity to see that we have the potential and we're complete and we're full of capacity of potential, we may not have, we may not think we're worthy, we may not think we're normal, we don't think we are adequate and so on and so forth and then we may not think that we still have the potential to feel worthy and feel complete. So we don't look in size too much to connect with what we haven't yet learned to connect with and life is harder for us. However, psychology is very, very important to think and determine and choose what is our belief about the power we have in us and the power people or the environment has on us and that's where there's a notion called the locus of control. People, people who believe that their experience, their fate, whether they feel good or feel bad is mainly determined by what people do to them. The parents did to them, the teachers did to them, society does to them are more in a reactive mode and are more at risk to be anxious and depressed and not do as well in life. People who believe that no matter what, no matter how bad my past was, no matter how bad my present is, at the end, I am in control of my emotions, my thoughts. I'm the one who can say, well, I'll face this, I can tap into my courage. So that's the, that's called the internal locus of control. So living from the inside out. So people who believe that they're not victim, who react all the time, but there are more people with potential and strength who can act on things, good things, bad things. These people have a much higher chance to have a better life and also to be less anxious and depressed. So yeah, if we had manipulative parents, it had an impact on us. But if we believe that we still have control and we can still learn and overcome and use the best of our potential that is still there, right? Then we can overcome a lot, including the past. Thank you for the very detailed answer. I don't know if it's, if it, you know, if it makes sense, but that's maybe. I think the internal locus of control is quite powerful as well. So hopefully it's helpful to the person who asked their question. Very quickly, Marianna has also asked another question. Marianna says that they had had a psychotic episode back a few years ago. Their mind is blank. And whether you could please talk about how neuroplasticity works in that context of a psychotic episode. Yeah. So a psychotic episode, you know, as it is, it's a break with reality with, you know, a lot, a lot of suffering. It depends what type of psychotic episode and when it happened, whether it was just, we could say, a spontaneous or drug induced or not. That, you know, that's, that means that there's a vulnerability that's in the brain, right? Whether it may have been inherited or not. And that vulnerability led to a break from reality with a lot of suffering. But the earliest, the earliest that is recognized and the earliest that a treatment can be accessed, medication, psychological treatment and social treatment, the better it will be. So which means that even though one may have experienced a psychotic episode with good treatment, both medication and psychological, the potential for a good life is very high, very, very high and it can be as high as anyone else. So neuroplasticity means that, you know, the brain can adapt and can change. So it's, we don't know in many, many details what, when we mean neuroplasticity, how we can influence the brain going the right direction or, but we know that with proper treatment that things can change in a way that's better for health and for wellness. So with proper treatment, you can rebalance in a sense the brain biologically by using medication and using non-medication approach so that the brain can readjust to be much healthier. But the bottom line is that life can be good, life can be good on whether we, you know, we think it's true neuroplasticity or not, life can be good. And so the earlier access to treatment, the better. Great. Thank you so much for the answer. I know we are fronting the time. So I just wanted to answer Michelle's question because we touched upon it earlier. Her question just was on what she can do regarding panic disorder and anxiety. So we mentioned earlier about the biopsychosocial approach. So if you just scroll into, when you rewatch the stream, if you just scroll to the earlier part of the stream, then you can have your answer, question answered there. And with that, I think we touched upon many topics today and they were very, very useful. So just to summarize, we talked about anxiety, general anxiety disorder. We talked about social phobia and panic disorder, as well as the intrinsic practice. And finally, answering questions from the community. I'd like to thank you all for joining me. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you learned a lot. And thank you so much, Dr. Bradwin, for your time. I enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yes, I'm very appreciative of everyone being here. Thank you to Cindy for compiling all the questions. And yes, thank you once again for being a part of our educational live stream. Thank you. I thank you. With that, we will end the broadcast and I hope you all have a wonderful day.