 Okay. We can go ahead and start then. Welcome to the Monday, November 16th meeting of the Montpelier design review committee. I will let committee members and staff introduce themselves by speaking their names. Martha Smurski. Hannah Smith. Eric Gilmourtson. Steve Everett. Meredith Crandall. Stop. Sparky Potter. Woodward Sines. Representing R.K. Miles. Before we get started with the first application, Meredith, would you like to review the remote meeting procedures? Please. Sorry, I know it's probably boring for all the DRC members, but just in case somebody knew is watching over Orca. So can everybody see this document on their screen? Yes. All right. Great. So this is for those viewing the meeting over the Orca media to let you know that you can participate in the design review committee meeting via the Zoom platform. You can join either by using this link here, or you can call into the meeting for either option. The meeting ID and passcode are here. 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We don't have any public on tonight other than Sparky, who's an applicant. So I'm not going to go big into details. If somebody calls in, I will go back into some of the other ways to participate. But for anybody who is watching, if you do want to call in and join because you have comments or questions, please feel free to do so, and you'll be able to speak once the chair calls on you. In the event the public is unable to access this meeting, it will be continued to a time and place certain. If you are having connectivity issues, try turning off your video or closing other applications on your phone or computer. And then if you're having trouble seeing any documents in screen share, all the files, as I said, are uploaded to the agendas and minutes page and available through the link that you can see on your screen right now at point B. Please note that all votes taken during this meeting that are not unanimous will be done by roll call vote in accordance with the law. I'm going to hand this back over to Steve. Moving on, I would like to hear a motion to approve the agenda. I move to approve the agenda. Do I hear a second? Second. Eric, all in favor of approving the agenda, speak your names. Steve, okay, the agenda is approved. And without further ado, let's move to the first application for Stone Cutters Way, the location of Allen Lumberg Company and Sparky Potters here from Wood in Wood to describe the project and his signs. Go ahead, Sparky. So the project is basically to replace existing signs for the most part existing locations to upgrade to the new owner, which is R.K. Miles. And so we basically reviewed all locations and came up with the two that are most important are the entrance for wayfinding. And then there's a sign that will go over the main entrance. There's an existing sign that would come down. And I chose a new location that is a piece of the shed on the north side, which is pretty underutilized in that it can help people and wayfinding to find the main entrance, which is a little bit tricky. So when you're coming down the Stone Cutters Way, there now would be a sign there to identify those set of buildings as R.K. Miles so that people can warm up for what is a tricky right hand turn when they get towards the main entrance in the parking lot. If you want me to, I can share the application materials. If there's anything you want to show or if any of DRC members have questions, I can pull those up. Have the members seen any of these images? Yes. Yeah, they all preceded them electronically, but I can also pull them up if there's something particular you want to point out. Are you doing any signs that face out onto 302? I can't remember whether to sign there now or not. No, there was an existing giant billboard, which is no longer allowed. So that's not happening. So there's no representation. There's a big cow out there, Eric, though, I think that's probably going to stay. I don't know the history of that, but it looks like it's going to stay there. But no, the entire orientation is to really get people into the south entrance. And it's pretty familiar territory in that we just chose to replace the existing signs that are there to get you to the parking lot. There's a bunch of other signs that will be coming down that are existing that are no longer needed or desired by R.K. Miles. So there's like three or four signs that are just going to come off the walls. So there won't be any sign clutter in there anymore. And as far as imagery to show, I mean, these sketches are probably, you probably all seen these sketches, these sketches are the best way to sort of give the orientation of what we think should happen. And these are all, the square footage has been sort of carefully ascertained through you, Meredith, to figure out what they can and can't do from a square footage perspective. There you go. There's that one. Yeah. That's coming down. Yep. And you're going to have a new entry door sign here. Correct. For the blue. New sign there. Right. So the sign on there. Yeah, that's the new location that I think will be helpful. Because I think when people are at the co-op, they're kind of looking in that direction. And certainly if people are wondering what their shed buildings are all about, then they'll have an answer. And we tried all kinds of ideas out. Some did not fly, like freestanding signs. Because that's a tricky turn right there. So I was contemplating a freestanding sign that would allow people to see from both directions through that entrance. But it was not allowed. So we were settling with what was there. Was there ever a sign on that building that the length of it faces, the backside faces the river? So you could see it across the river? Well, that's the one we were talking about. That was, that is, there's a billboard there. It's, you know, 120 square feet or something. I'm not aware, Steve, if there's anything ever before that. But I understand the grandfather condition does not apply here. So I don't think that they will be, have the square footage to have anything large enough to give you red from across the river. And the images up on the screen, the Alla Lumber Company, that will come down. The images cover up what it says. So that will come down. I would bet that most of the people that go there know where they're going. I think you're right about that, Eric. This is not going to be, not a lot of newcomers. Sparky, what's the size of the lettering on the largest sign that's being placed on the building with RK miles? Okay, so the copy size is the, the, the Ammon miles is nine and five eight inches tall. And the lowercase letters are six inches tall. So it's not, it's not a giant sign. These are, these are basically 24 square foot signs. And the, the north, the north side and the south side are the exact same size. Now, on the back of that building where the billboard, that billboard will be coming down. Will that large billboard facing across the river, will that be coming down? Yes, it will. I'm not sure if, I think their staff will be taking that down. In fact, I'm sure they are. I know it's just not allowed. So I have to come down. If the largest letter in the RK miles sign is 10 inches, I mean, viewing 10 feet for every inch of sign, that gives you a viewable distance of a hundred feet. Would that not give you enough distance across the river to do a 10 or a 12 inch sign to replace the billboard? You mean like something Steve will go on the building? That's, that's certainly a decent idea. I think 10 or 12 inches might be a little, a little small. It might read. I would think something the 16 to 18 inch range would definitely read. But that's something that'd be easily, easy to experiment. We just could go out there and get a shot. I'm not sure if there's enough square footers though left in, in what's allowed to RK miles to do something on that side. Am I wrong about that? I don't have the numbers right in front of me because the sign permit attachment that you included didn't give us the amount of signage allowable on the property based on the district. That part didn't get filled in. It doesn't look like somewhere else on here. I know I worked it out previously, but it's been filed. So I don't have those numbers in my head. So I think, I think you and Trish worked it out and I, I believe we came away thinking that there was no more sort of footage that could be allowed under the current regulations. I'll double check it. Especially if the DRC gives their thoughts on it. But normally, you know, we try to, we try to make sure everything you're asking for goes before them. Okay. I certainly wouldn't object to a sign. It was read of all on, out on Berrymont Pillar Road. What we could do would be to give the option of adding an additional sign similar to the ones you're putting up with RK miles with a maximum letter size of 16 inches subject to the allowance of total square footage. Great. That'd be super. We're actually doing something like that for St. John's Bear in their application. There is a sign that has a similar viewing distance. And I think it's, we drew a sign that's like two feet tall by 23 feet wide. And the copy is about that size that I just mentioned. So we kind of have a sign drawn up that could do it. But it'd be great. I'm sure they'd be thrilled if that was a possibility. Well, I think that, you know, that's a big, a big side of the building. Yeah. A sign there makes a lot of sense to me. Me too. There's always been one there. So it's like, did you try to buy a look across and you go, okay, I get it. It's certainly less, a little less imposing than the build board. The build board is definitely a build board. It's one of the few left in Vermont. Well, that's great. So what's the size of the sign in St. John's Berry? I think it's about two foot tall and about 23 feet wide with copy that is approaching 20 to 16 to 20 inches. I don't forget. I don't remember, but it's a one-liner too. So instead of having RK miles in their typical logo fashion, we've taken just the RK miles, individual letters and made them all the same size, you know, in a one-line kind of approach. I'm curious, does the build board, does it say Allen Lumber? I guess I can't visualize it. It does. It says Allen Lumber and it also says, let me see, it also, yeah, it just says Allen Lumber. It also advertises their showroom. Okay. I can kind of show it to you. It's right where my finger is. Oh yes. Okay. Yeah, that is a big one. Okay. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's a nice facade. I could easily handle a sign. Yes. The cow might have to move over a little bit to make room, but that's a big cow right there. Oh yeah. I'm curious, what the story is of the cow? I did ask that question. It did not get a straight answer, so I don't know. I think you might have just shown up there one day. That's not considered a sign, so. Correct. I actually believe Allen Lumber paid to have it painted there. Okay. Saki, what is the material of your signs? It's a, it's a, it's a kind of newer product. It's aluminum that's sandwiched with an acrylic core. It's called, one of the manufacturers is called Daibon. It's a, it's a nice material. It's a, it allows, you know, it's a lightweight material, which is its only problem. It doesn't, you know, you can't use it in heavy duty, like wind, windy areas, but it's a decent material. It's going to last a long, long time and it's, it's kind of, it's inexpensive compared to other ways of preparing sign faces. But if you want to look at it, so basically it's two aluminum pieces with a, with a core of acrylic. Okay. And the letters are, are painted on or glued on? So in all these, these formats, they have chosen to have the lettering, the large lettering for RK Miles. The RK Miles portion of it is going to be cut out of like a half inch or three quarter of a sign foam. The lower copy is all painted on the surface and the blue is a painted surface. So it's an all painted sign basically. So we show all weather and about the same speed. Okay. Thank you. So there will be some, I'm sorry, go ahead. Just a quick question. The one size sign was 40 inches high by 86 inches long. Yes. What was the size of the larger lettering on that sign, the Miles? That's, that's the one that's big with it. There's two signs that are that size. It's the north and south sign. So it's, they're both closing in on 10 inches tall. Okay. The one that, that goes over the front door, those letters are six and a half inches tall for the M and four inches tall for the R. If you were proposing one for the, to be viewed across the river, what would be on the sign just RK Miles or RK Miles building materials? I think it'd be just RK Miles and it would be on a blue background with white copies. So it could actually be seen from across across the river. Individual cut out letters is another way to do it. But I think their branding is pretty strong in the blue world. And so I think they probably would prefer to have a blue background until where they applied white copy. The contrast makes it very readable. It's exactly. Yeah. This is so much that most of the signs we review are downtown, where it's a very different situation. And this is a big building. Yeah. You know, and new people looking for it are going to have a hard time if there's not a sign on the river. Well, I would agree. I would agree with you. We, we assisted with Caledonia spirit spirits in Bar Hill. And so that we were trying to get their logo big enough to be facing across the river. And it is recognizable and very viewable from across the river. They chose to go with their logo versus going with a copy. With 16 inch lettering, what would be the largest sign size to accommodate that? Say two feet or three feet by what? Well, I mean, so if it's 16 inches tall, I think that the the background of the sign panel would need to be at least two feet, maybe two feet change, maybe 30 inches, something like that. So, but I mean, if there's, if there's, if the town is going to give more space to them, I'm sure that they would, they would be, they would love it. For example, if you went from a, from a 16 inch letter, which is, this is this, which is, you know, good size letter to a 20 inch letter, which is this, then you'd probably want to have a more like a 30 inch plaque behind it. I could actually send you over the drawing that we've done for, for St. Johnsbury. It's, you know, it hasn't been approved yet, but it's done and we can send it so you can see what that looks like. And the relationship of, of that, the distance, you know, across the railroad tracks over Hill and Dale is the same kind of thing. Well, what we could do would be to, as long as it's the same motif as the other RK mile signs, we could just give you an option to add a sign on that size, say up to 30 inches by 20 feet, subject to the limitations on the site. Okay. That'd be great. It might be a little bit wider than 20 feet. It might be more like 23, 24 feet. And it would be made in sections and just be basically, you know, you take these, these sections and put them up, you know, in each section, but across the river, you'd never see that. And then again, a 16 inch letter is actually visible from probably 160 feet according to the one inch or 10. Right. If you were to walk out of Shaw's supermarket door and look across the river or across the street, across main street, so the Sarducci sign is very readable from that distance. And that's 200 and some odd feet and their signs 12 inches high. Oh, really? Good to know. Great. So, okay. So then this, these parameters sound good. I think, I think anywhere in that range would work. Am I, you know, certainly my experience with, with distance reading, especially if you're in a car driving by, you get that kind of that one glance at it. And so I think the, in some respects, the bigger it is, the better for that potential to read well. For example, the letter that it was currently on that billboard, the A has got to be, oh, the A's got to be, I don't know, 30 inches tall a bit. I didn't go, I didn't go out and measure it because you'd actually fall on the river if you tried to go out and measure that things. Pretty steep bang there. Sparky, this is Meredith. So I just did some quick calculations. And maybe there was a, maybe between Trish and Audra, there was some debate as to what, how we factored in the wall signage allowance. Okay. But based on what I just did, if the numbers off that site plan, if I got those right, you're looking at over a hundred square feet of wall signage allowance. So you only have, right now, you just have the three signs that you're proposing, right? Yes. Or, well, there's the, yeah, because customer parking is directional, so that wouldn't count towards total wall signage. So you've got, what, two 24 square feet and one 10 square feet? Yeah. So that gives you room for another sign on the back to face the river, for sure. Right. How much square footage is left? If my numbers are right, and I want to go back over with Trish, but I think they have a total allowance of 135 square feet, and they've used less than 75, they've used less than 60 square feet. Cool. Because you're taking off all the other signage. We are, yeah. Right. Is the, is the, hold on, there's the, what's that one there in the end? The north end? Uh, hold on, I'm going to pull this back up. Nice share screen. There was the, like, the showroom sign. Is that actually on? That's gone, yeah. Okay. That's gone too. Then, yeah. Actually, RKMOS did not want it. They didn't figure they needed it. And then, this is a great conversation because we, it ended being that someday they'll talk about a sign that could go across the river and ask for a variance. So this is great to be bringing this up. Yeah. I'll, I'll make sure that Trish and I are really, really clear on what counts as a facade, because she and I had this conversation about Caledonia spirits, but I think she, Audra, discussed it about the RK miles location versus Trish and me. So sometimes that's comes out. Okay. Awesome. Thank you. So if the total is 135 less 60, that gives you 75 square feet remaining. Yeah. That sounds about right. That seems like plenty of square footage for what we're trying to do. Okay. And again, we'll give that as an option. Okay. So you, you can do it, but you're not required to, certainly. Wait for the one, the one in St. John'sbury is actually, you know, more like 50, 60 square feet. So this is, this is great. This would work great. Thanks, Eric, for bringing this up. Does anyone have any other questions, comments or suggestions? Do any of the other committee members regarding the sign application? I have a question for down the road. RK Moses chosen not to talk much about lighting these signs. And I was going to return to them and suggest that at least the signs that is, is on the south entrance should have lights on because that, you know, it's dark by four o'clock right now. Um, so I, uh, is there anything that that would prohibit them from having, lighting on the shed above the main entrance on the south side? Not, not, not the entrance door, but the actual, the shed wall. What kind of lighting would you suggest? Well, I think I would certainly, this is the location I'm speaking about here. I would suggest basically an LED fixture that is, this is singular fixture that we've used a lot of. And we, you know, goosenecks off the building about two and a half or three feet. It'd be easy to, to light that, that wall in the sign below it very nicely. So, and the fixtures about you, about yay by yay, it's just, it's not huge, but it has a, you know, it's, it's, it's a delightful fixture in that the lightest is not blue. It's kind of nice, it's got a nice warm white to it. Um, and it just reads very well. Would that be a single gooseneck? Yes, it would be. Now there are linear fixtures, as you know, they can, they can go out there, like six foot, you know, eight foot linear fixtures, but I don't think it's necessary in this particular arena. They're also a heck of a lot more expensive too. So just a single black gooseneck with an LED bulb? Yes, and it's about seven inches by five inches by three inches is the fixture itself. And I can easily send, send photographs of what it looks like at night, and where it looks like in the daytime. So for the, for the zoning permit part outside of the design review part, I would need to get a copy of the specs and information on how many lumens the bulb would be emitting and what other light fixtures are on the site, because that'll trigger it over into, because changing the light fixtures triggers it into an administrative site plan permit. Right, right. So I will ask them that question. I'm not sure what their plans are for the rest of the lighting. The only other, you know, with the front door is there, they'll change the bulb and there's already, you know, sort of a cam light there. So this is the only location. I don't think the north side would really warrant it, but I don't know what they're going to be doing for sort of ground lighting or wall lighting. So I'll ask that question. Awesome. Meredith, could we give the option for a single gooseneck subject? Yeah, you can do that under the approval. Yeah, you can do that as a design review approval, and then that way that'll roll over. I think that works well. I was just trying to figure out a way to do it, so he didn't have to come back. Yep, exactly. You can do that and then we can always, we'll just roll it in and hold off on the actual permit for a little bit till we get the details on the light. Okay. Any other committee members have any suggestions regarding the lighting? I just want to make a comment. I'm not usually an advocate for signs, but this is such a huge building that I think it looks silly without good signage. Well, to your point, Eric, I think now that I've heard that there might be 75 square feet remaining, I would be thinking about going back to the main sign of the south entrance and increasing the size of that sign, because it is the main entrance. The north side I think is fine, but that particular sign could grow and be maybe a better fit in terms of scale on that big shed building, so that's a good point. In other words, instead of having 40 inches by 86 inches, maybe it becomes five foot by eight and a half feet or something like that, because I think that would certainly be closer to the size of the existing sign that's there. We were under the impression that we could not exceed 24 square feet for any one sign, so we scaled it down. Rod, I don't want to say I approve anything that's against the regulations, but it's a big building, it's a big operation. And so, Sparky? Just figure if you increase the size of that sign, it reduces what's remaining for the sign over the river. Yeah, what I thought I'd do, Steve, is kind of figure out that sign first and see what would be necessary for that to really read and see if there's anything left open, if there's any square footage left over. So, Sparky, just a reminder that for each individual, so you have your total wall sign allowance, right? Total wall sign, but for each individual sign, you have to look at the facade on which it is being placed, and a sign can only, the max width of each individual sign is 80% of that one facade. Gotcha. So, you do have, especially with your narrower facades on some of these signs, your width is reduced. Got it, thank you. I don't think we're approaching those margins, though. I don't think so either. I just wanted to throw that out there. Okay, but Mary, so we're not limited to 24 square feet for any one individual sign, it sounds like. It's basically, you get 135 square feet, you slice it and dice it how what best works for the building, okay. What's the designated location for that sign you're thinking of enlarging? It's on the south entrance, it's this one right here. Okay. Right now, there's an existing sign that's just very large. It's just, what's there right now? Yeah, here you go. Right. Yeah. So, right now, that would look, let's see, that's, you said it's a south facade, so that is, oh. Yep. What's the size of this, Sparky, what's the size of the Allen Lumber sign that's there now? Let me see, it is, let me see. The small sign is 31 inches by eight feet. The signable for Allen Lumber is actually 52 inches tall by about 10 feet wide, it's a big sign. So, this one that's going up there would be pretty small by comparison. Yeah, I don't think the one that's there is too big. So, I agree, I totally agree. What we can do is just say, you could increase the size of the proposed sign at that location to up to the size, the square footage of the existing sign. Sounds fair to me. But then you have to balance that out with the size of the sign facing over the river. Correct. And of the two, of the two choices, the one over the river would really have to read well, otherwise it'd be kind of a mistake. And so, I think that I would pay attention to that first. Okay, again with the existing application, you had a total of 60 square feet, you had left 75. So, a three foot by 25 foot sign would give you 75. Right, and it's possible that that sign could, you know, I'm gonna just look at it and see if it can be more like a two foot by 20 foot sign and still do it to its job. Because you don't really need that much more square footage. You need another four or maybe eight square feet to make the south side sign similar in size to what's already there. Now, what this probably means, I mean, we can read in the next couple of days, we can certainly redraw these concepts. And then we need to resubmit the whole proposal back to you. Just to me. Just to you, okay. Just to me. So, again, it can be administratively approved, so you don't have to come back before another meeting. Okay. Does anyone else on the committee have any, again, comments, questions, or suggestions? If not, I can start going through the criteria. There's a criteria sheet that all the projects are evaluated by. Okay. One, under all projects, one, exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations on existing buildings. They'll be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building and other properties in the district. Additions to existing buildings shall respect and be comparable with the size, scale, materials, detailing additions, including science, shall not obscure or undermine a central forming character of the original building. It should reflect the additions. The style is appropriate and that's acceptable. And then there's some one down below for signage. And this has to do with removing a sign. When removing a sign, evidence of the science installation must be removed to the greatest extent possible, and that's acceptable. And most of these locations, you're replacing an existing sign with a new sign. Steve, does that mean, for example, repainting a background if there's shadowing or anything left over? Okay. Okay. As much as possible. Okay. And in certain spots, you certainly have to look at the and in certain spots, you're certainly finding fading from age and sunlight. And there's another that would apply in this particular outdoor lighting fixtures, including lighting of the sign. Structural design of outdoor lighting is compatible with the architectural design and function of the building. And the lighting for the sign, the goose neck, is acceptable in that location. Okay. And then there's specific to signs. There's a set of the evaluation criteria. The size, location, design, color, texture, lighting, and material of all exterior signs within the design review district shall be compatible with the buildings and structures of the site and surrounding properties. That's acceptable. Where appropriate signing shall respect the original sign placement and sign bands on historic structures. The location here is acceptable and you're replacing many of the locations where there's an existing sign. It's recommended that sign placement be centered over entries, acceptable. Sign installation shows damage to character defining materials on the building. That's certainly acceptable here. Sign design, color and typography shall respect historic precedents where appropriate and shall be of the appropriate scale for existing and new buildings. That's acceptable. Sign support structures shall be compatible with the building architecture and must not be overly complex or dominant in and of themselves. That's acceptable. Lighting fixtures for signs on facades of historic buildings shall not conflict with or damage the building's architectural integrity or cover or impact character defining architectural features. That's acceptable. And then lighting fixtures for signs matter on all building for the site shall be designed with appropriate housing shielding and photometrics to ensure that there is appropriate lighting levels and illumination that focuses on the sign panels exclusively acceptable with a gooseneck. And that's acceptable. So based on the application and the review and again the options for the applicant are to install a single black gooseneck with an LED bulb subject to administrative approval. There's also an option to increase the sign at the entrance to a size not to exceed the existing Allen Lumber sign which is again 52 inches by 10 feet. And then there's also the option to put a sign on the side of the building facing the river so that it's again within the overall limits of sign square footage and against subject to administrative approval. All in favor of the application based on those speak your names. This is Martha. I say yes. Yes. Yes. Hannah says yes. Eric says yes. Ben says yes. And Steve says yes. So it is approved. Well done. That was the very education you guys are throwing good. Thank you. So Sparky I will get you those recommendation forms that Steve walked through and you'll see where his signature is on them. We'll need your signature or somebody else from Wooden Woods on that to confirm that you agree with the recommendations and the changes and then we'll finalize the lighting details and any sign changes that comply with those recommendations once we get that all squared away we'll be able to issue the permit but we need to get those details. We would need to submit to you probably drawing a front side profile of the light fixture as well as the other changes as well so more drawings will be coming your way. Perfect. Great and I would think before the end of this week we can get you what we just talked about. Okay great. And just I guess I can get back to Amanda at RKMOS does that what is it the timing process in terms of days or weeks before they would get permits? Hopefully it would just be a few days we're we're in a little bit of flux I mean next week is Thanksgiving week and we're also with the latest news on COVID we're shifting to a lot fewer staff in the office at any one time are hoping to still be working the same number of days but with people flexing between being here and being home. So we'll do the best we absolutely can but the permit issuance is through a computer program so sometimes if that's having hiccups and the computer you know the program guru isn't here it really it takes a little bit. So as far as fees go is there I know there'd be a fee for another sign on this on the river side but it's going to be an increase in fees there but then the light fixture is there a fee that would come with life fixture? We can follow up with that via email but there is that's going to because that's going to trigger administrative site plan I think I've got to go back to the fees and see what Audra charged that might be an added fee but I just I need to go into the the program and see what was charged to begin with. Okay sounds fair great great well thank you so much and thanks for thinking outside the box it's just really helpful for these folks. Well I know that they're moving in they're opening their doors I guess tomorrow so it'd be helpful to have a sign indicating who's really there now. Yeah it's interesting they they uh they're not terribly worried about it because they think the transition is something that they're they're comfortable with you know L number and the arching mouse kind of living you know kind of as kind of one for a while but uh they were they're very they're very patient very thoughtful so they did more eliminating of signs than they did adding so that was I thought that was good too. Like I said before probably many of the customers aren't going to notice that there are no signs there. They're going to come regardless of a sign or not yeah that's great. Well thank you Sparky it's good to see you again. Nice to see you too. Nice meeting you. Nice meeting you too. And good luck with your projects. Thank you very much Frisa and if you're ever in Waitfield just knock on the door we'd love to have you guys come in and see our our candy store so. Okay thank you. Okay all right thanks a lot. All right to review the minutes for the November the second meeting has everybody had a chance to look at those minutes? Yeah I'd move approval. Yeah I had a question um when we're talking about the skinny pancake situation the last line there it would be concealed to blend into the background of the building. I wasn't really clear about what that means um I think it would be more appropriate to say that the applicant anticipates that it could be painted to go to blend in um concealed this kind of um it's not clear about what they're actually anticipating. Yep sorry uh that's a good that's a good suggestion. Way at the bottom. It's been a while since I've looked at these um yes painted be painted to blend into the background. Yeah. Yes that sounds much better and certainly more accurate. The other just minor point that I would suggest you guys consider is these minutes I missed it um has been in as an alternate he's no longer an alternate so congratulations then. So I think that I'll move that that should be eliminated his reference as an alternate. Do I need to second that? Yeah why don't you? Yes. Otherwise I will. He's easily approved. What is it the legislature does by unanimous consent right? Yes and so the minutes minutes are approved? Well with those two changes I I approve. Okay so you've made your motion and do I hear second? I second. Okay good all in favor of the minutes with those changes speak your names. Eric. Martha. Miss. Hannah. Steve. It's unanimous. Meredith have you heard anything about the skinny pancake? Haven't heard anything back yet I know that they're conferring with Montpelier Alive about what to do you know what they might be able to do on that new vent location um and but I don't know if they've gotten confirmation that that would work um technically that location so I haven't heard anything back from them yet. Thank you. You're welcome. Oh Eric I just realized I think we forgot to put the HPC CLG grant update in other business I'm sorry that was my oversight I didn't know if just a reminder I didn't know if you wanted to bring that up. Go ahead you can update it you know more about it. Eric are you Eric Steve are you ready for other business? Yes that's the next thing on the agenda so go right ahead. Okay um so uh we are the HPC is working on their um on a grant application we're we're close to getting that filed to get some money for a consultant to work on the design review guidelines so that's the big step the application deadline for that is December 7th um you know if if we get that grant approved and can pull together under other funding then working on those design review guidelines would probably move forward pretty rapidly um so any input you have on that in the next you know month or two would really be helpful especially if there's particular um sections of the design review guidelines that or design review regulations that you would prefer to prioritize in developing guidelines like do you want guidelines for all projects do you want guidelines focusing on windows and doors first because there's a possibility that we'll only get enough funding to do part of the project at a time and have to do it in stages in which case we would want to do the illustrated guidelines for the things that um either you have the most trouble you know figuring out with the new regulations or you think that um applicants would have the most trouble figuring out and I mean Steve and Ben I think you have a lot of experience with that is looking at it from applicants perspectives um and trying to explain things to lay people so if you could look at it with that eye that would be really helpful um you know monies monies tight these days um in city government so I am anticipating that probably will need to do this in stages um so any thoughts you have on that would be great and any if there's any buildings that you think are amazing examples of design here in Montpelier or bad examples in other towns let us know because we're gonna want to take photographs um to illustrate the guidelines as much as possible and we don't want to put up any bad what we think are bad projects in Montpelier we want to go somewhere else to get those we don't want an applicant coming in front of us to and looking at the guidelines and seeing their own building and there's a bad example of design that's not good PR well I I think tonight was and it would it might reflect on bad mistakes from previous design review development review committees I thought tonight was a really good example of how constructive design review can be and you know a good example and we got to remember it that if we need a letter or anything from Sparky just because everybody made good suggestions on those signs I mean it would I think it made a difference we just didn't rubber stamp it or anything a little customer testimonial on the design review committee absolutely all we could use all the good PR we get to yeah that's right yeah a yelk review does anyone have any other business at this point here I hear a motion to adjourn so moved Eric says I'll say yes okay all in favor in favor of adjournment speak your names Eric yeah oh you're muted Ben Ben and Steve some meeting is adjourned thank you Steve thank you everybody good to see you have a good thanksgiving we won't meet again in number seven okay go harvard day okay thanks thank you thank you bye bye