 Podcasts was roundtable round 118 I really wish I knew what I named it podcast stats charts other confusing info, right? There's just so much out there and these days There's like a ton of stuff coming out like the charts can be hacked What the heck is a chart anyways? Is there such a thing? Do you look at your stats? Do you hide your stats? We were just talking about that in the pre-show so when you get there, but let's meet the current roundtable will grow a little bit here but Anthony welcome to your first roundtable Well, hello. Thank you for asking me to come on. What is your show your podcast? We my main show is the ritual misery podcast. It is a look at military life fatherhood Geekery and gaming we like to say that it is a celebration of two lifelong friends and their guests of all things geek because As the name implies everyone has a ritual misery Whether it's a car that you like to build and you just can't escape building that car or the new tech You have to buy or taking pictures of your kids Everybody has something that they geek out about that they just cannot resist diving into every time they get a chance Yeah, I was gonna say I I didn't decipher that from the top the name of your podcast Which I don't know if you've seen I think it's the most recent or last two rounds We talked about what's going on with Apple and their yanking shows from or they're not Accepting submissions where you sort of have to explain the title of your podcast, right? Which is you know? Not necessarily bad, but people are stuffing them with keywords and all this stuff So how do you how do you get that across to your listener? I did go to your website and I saw it So it's right there on the sidebar. It's nice that I can go there and be like what is this about and it's sort of Bullet points. What's it about? But how else how do you convey all of that or do you care? Do you want do you care if people find you through search or anything like that? Search in SEO is such a tricky game to play that it's just Honestly, it's more fun just to record the podcast and have the experience of the podcast in the live chat room and the feedback That we get and things like that so instead of worrying about how we're ranked necessarily and how people can find us It's all through word of mouth and a little social group We have called diving club that you know we have a lot of people that follows through there and It's a lot more about having fun than it is about making sure that we're top ranked on any Google searches or anything like that So we never really worried about the SEO aspect of it. Cool. All right, Paul. Welcome back. Thank you. Thank you It's this t-shirt week. How does this work? I'm not even gonna count. I'm afraid all right What's it? What's it? What's what's the podcast you'd like us to check out ball? Oh check out the podcast report She's she's coming back. So summer hiatus will be over shortly and gonna have some real fun You're a seasoned podcast. I'm a seasoned podcast. Yes. They also seasoned podcaster. Yes. Yes, exactly Paul Paul tastes delicious after he's been married for you. I'm moving over to Libs and pros So we're gonna start doing some dynamic ad insertion and playing with that this season. So that should be fun Interesting. Well, I know you will have plenty to say about that. So this audience would care about that So you definitely want to follow and he'll he'll let you know is it worth it because he's gonna pay more for that for sure Yeah, a lot more just a little okay a lot a lot more a lot support support Paul patreon.com Whatever All right. Hey podcast stats, you know, there was an article so leading off here James Cridlin wrote an article former roundtabler once a round table always round table around safe former but He wrote a how to understand podcast stats And then I will put all these links in the show notes at podcasters roundtable comm so important to check those out You should be able to scroll up. Oh, maybe it's right there in your app as well Of course, you're watching live on youtube comm slash podcasters round table. So you don't see them yet But you should be in the chat. Where's Dave Dave is like in Australia. He usually puts links in the chat for us but We'll survive we'll survive one day while he's down under but he wrote an article about how to understand podcast stats And there's a lot of cool stuff in here and it just goes to show why This kind of gets confusing but right off the top He talks about understanding the Apple podcast charts and he says while Apple Well, I don't think that's written right but Apple does not publish the way they compile Apple podcast charts, so they don't let you know They generally understood they are generally understood to be based on recent subscriptions now We were starting to talk about this in the pre-show as well. I was getting heated. I said save it one Yeah, right off the top. So I it is based on subscriptions when it comes to Apple It's all about sub sub subs. What have you done for me lately, right? But I also thought I understood that I thought Rob Walsh always talked about how it is also based on all-time subscriptions This is why you see shows ranked above yours that have been dead for years Because they just either are getting subscribers over time and they've had so many they're so far ahead of your show Even though your current So I understand I that's how I understand. How do you understand it Paul? I well, well first of all Rob and I agree that a Approximately 90% of your score is subs in the last 24 hours, right? Yes. It's the largest chunk. Yeah So so we agree on that Where where we disagree is where the other 10% goes, you know, I have launched a couple dozen folk to number one a Brand-new out of the gate you with no reviews, you know, not asking for reviews You're one of the hackers. We're gonna talk about later on what this is legit though These are actual listeners. Okay, you know now now I've watched I've watched this and I'll tell you I've got some insight to this as Well, but you know, I mean when you get a when you get a book author with you know 200,000 people on their mailing list they can you know, they can get six seven thousand subscribers in 24 hours No problem. It's it's not that hard to do and So, you know, we agree that 90% of it's based on that the other 10% the question is I've just seen people get to the top with no History no comments no downloads no nothing other than the subs So I'm closer to the other 10% is is based on the subs as well. But again, this is the nature of the beast We don't know for sure. Um, I think if you know, if you look at the top Subs, you know, top subscribe shows like well, you know, boy, you know, the this show was on NBC last night You know or or you know, this show NPR played it or whatnot. So it makes a lot of sense So my my belief is it's closer to 95. You're saying the top meaning I mean they have those special feature boxes, right? Which is yeah, no, that's not I mean the ranking. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I mean the chart ranking is itself Okay, so I guess that's the other question. Is there such is it is it a chart? Is there such thing as a chart really? I mean, it's not it's not really telling us Who the most Downloaded listened to podcast is has nothing to do with that Right, right. So so it's not really a chart. So to speak it's a chart in In Apple's world, but I don't even know if they're using it as a chart Part of my problem with the whole concept of this is we don't know How much of this is algorithm and how much is editorial Based, right? That's what we talk a lot about with the new and noteworthy We're a lot of people say that's editorial whereas I think most I think there's like to the like comedy and The front page are actual humans. I think but the rest has to be algorithm It doesn't for all the drill down subcategories. Yeah But I mean even that we don't know the algorithm We don't win and Apple's not wrong in not letting us know Correct exactly what it is in the algorithm because then everybody's gonna game it But it should still be a sliding scale of you know Something that we can actually tangibly take out of it versus just an arbitrary Scale, you know just arbitrary ranking. We don't know what well we can get out of it So everybody just throws things against it and hope that it works out. Yeah, I think the question though about editorial though I think I can help there because I mean we've taken people who two days ago weren't in iTunes No history no nothing and we've taken them to number one So there's no time for editorial and I've launched a number, you know That have come, you know, apples. Hey, who are these guys? You know is this legit they see the numbers and the IP addresses and and they know it's legit But just with what we've seen I don't think editorial has time. I don't get a trial has the opportunity What can you give away because we know we know how to do that? I mean even says right here is launch a podcast get your whole email list to subscribe Yeah, within 24 hours. Yeah, you're number one, right? Yeah, exactly. It's not complicated. There's no more secrets No, you give it. No, it's it's really not you know the thing you have to do though The thing let me give you the secret though I'm Podcasting's greatest strength is also one of its biggest problems Because the thing is you can listen to a podcast anytime any place anywhere And so if you go to your email list and say hey, I've got a podcast that you can listen to anytime any place anywhere You know, it goes in that veritable to do list and what you have to do is it is a 24-hour time period I had one client who didn't believe me and day one It was her list and then day two it was her partners and she wanted to see how that would work She didn't move between day one and day two even though we had more clicks So I know a good chunk of it is the 24 hours So what you do have to do the secret is let them know But then let them know that hey, we're doing this Wednesday to go up the charts We're doing this Thursday because we want to we want Apple to take notice And it's neat because if you have a list that likes you if you have an audience that loves you You can go to them and you can say hey, you know come with me on this journey You know be part of this people love. I mean, this is the thing about podcasting people love to be part of something they created and So, you know, if you can say hey help me come up the charts. Let's do this together people love that That's almost a bad omen for those of us don't have an audience going into it though that are you know Slowly building an audience Because the people with the big audience that just scales it towards the the big media again And that's one of the problems with well some of us would say that's one of the problems with podcasting is If you got a no, I'd say it's definitely one of the problems with podcasting Well, I would I would ask does it matter like I mean that's the second thing So what like oh, you're you're high up in in the charts, right? What does it really do for you? You've already got your base to listen to your podcast How many more subscribers did you get from being in this magical place? And are they like real are they actual subscribers that you even want? We were able to track one client Who was able to get into a network and when you have the networks you get the stats of visits to the web page versus Subscribes and so we knew that you know because we track clicks on the email We knew that he got x amount of visits to the website or itunes page And so there were more people who came as a result and so that was viable, but the numbers weren't that big at all I'm getting on somebody else's show is a lot better And and now of course with all the cheating that goes on it doesn't really matter at all the one thing that does happen though it's it's it's incidental, but The other people notice and so When we run people up the charts spot if I use the contacts and says hey, how do we get these people on our list? you know or you know, there's a there's a Podcast company who's swiping a lot of people right now who's getting a pretty bad reputation You know that they have reached out and so you do get some attention might go out the charts But only from the nerds It's not real for building an audience at all and and you know, I think to what race, you know I'm serving anthony saying about Uh about It's not good for a little guy. It's it's not but if you look at everything else in itunes I mean we got shows and new and notable that have been dead for two years Right, you know, so it's it's not like this is the only part that's not working Yeah Well, I'm looking at some of the other stuff here. Um, we're gonna talk about shard of bull This is understanding There's pod track, right? This is another place you can get analytics or stats from But that they don't have you know, you have to add that to yourself So it's not a it's not a good At least you're gonna look I think pod track puts out like their top 20 Podcasts, but they don't have all podcasts, right? So grain of salt, right if you're measuring yourself. Oh, I'm not in that top 20 You may not be So yeah, the bit and especially if you're trying to compare yourself to others You're not going to get the bigger names on there because as we had talked about pre-show, you know Hiding your numbers or or not publicly saying your numbers is kind of a strategy of some podcasts and some networks and For what strategy? What do you think the strategy is to hide? I this feels like something that's Numbers close to the vest has been something podcasters have always kept close to the vest I feel like right Well used to be in the mean my my my perspective on it is if you were trying to say that you're the best network but then you can someone can go through and and And quantify your downloads versus someone else Then they can dispute that claim and it kind of looks makes you look foolish Even though your listeners are still going to be your listeners Uh and a lot of smaller podcasts a lot of people that I know that podcasts on the you know The couple hundred downloads a week area They're ashamed of it because they want they would want to save their numbers until they're reaching hundreds of people A day, you know and getting those numbers up there So there's something they can brag about if they're not going to brag about it then they're not going to say anything at all and um It just it seems to be Well for us we've never never hidden our numbers. We've never you know, we we get about a hundred downloads a week on our show We get a lot of interaction through back channels and we get quite a few people watching live, but Oh, you know, we're we're doing really well compared to some of our contemporaries in our in our social group for podcasts And they're just astounded that we're releasing our numbers and it's like just why why hold it close to your vests Why not just say this is what i'm getting this is the real picture This is how we're growing or we're not growing or hey, we're looking for ideas to help grow and it For our community for our podcast for my podcasts um It really just it the community becomes more part of it because then they feel more special that hey I'm not only do I listen to the show and know these people But I also know some of the numbers behind it and there's not a availous secrecy anywhere in it Daniel, uh, welcome to the show Hey guys. Hey nice to hear your voice. Um I will toss to you because i'm looking at part of this article here. This is the um, pod news one about understanding podcast stats And most podcast apps download a podcast automatically So he's saying that using the difference between oh Back up the difference between plays and downloads, right? So, um, there are two different numbers And I guess spotify handles this seems like in a good way whereas they give you the number of um downloads to the device if they even do that do they do that and then Versus someone who presses play because they can because it's All in the box. It's a walled-in garden. They can tell you the difference, right? The same way that itunes now gives you through podcast connect Gives you access to retention stats and stuff like that. They can tell when someone actually presses play via the app Um, but there's a difference here, right download numbers are not necessarily telling you everything Um, or not enough when you're looking at your stats Uh, let's see it's because all podcast hosts measure downloads differently He says one using the standard Um, they may describe themselves as iabv2 compliant. Nice new, uh jargon-ish acronym for us there, but um, oh, it's other guys are just one, you know, they're two be one be one They're roughly comparable to those using those the standard. We'll talk about that but He said but even these podcast hosts do not have identical measurement mechanisms Excuse me Ones that don't use the standard most notably soundcloud may appear to give you four or five times the amount of downloads They're not they're discounting them differently. So, uh, when he says when you switch hosts, that's media hosts, you'll get Uh, you won't get the same numbers So You know when you're looking at your numbers or you're giving numbers out to someone else Your numbers if you're on different hosts and someone else are different, right because all these hosts out So what is the iab v2 just iab these these The standard that was developing is this do we like this? Is this good? these standards Is this something we needed? It's the growing up of a standard that we've already had for many many years Years ago there was the association of downloadable media adm That set many of the standards that were then followed by pod track libson blueberry and several others And iab and iab version 2 download measurement standards Are then building on top of that What defines a download how much of the file has to be downloaded before it's counted a download and Things like ip addresses white listing black listing How many devices do you count from a single ip address stuff like that and some of that is new Because when when this first started it wasn't common for a household to have 20 different ip addresses may be out in the same file through different Or 20 different devices that is through the same ip address. That's much more common now with our smartphones and like smartphones Changing ip addresses when they're on mobile networks versus wi-fi So some stuff has changed over the years and that's why there's been this revision and this growth This maturing of the standard that we've already had does um These iab ones so like libson blueberry anyone's using these do they break out the difference between because Most apps are not reporting back plays right so There is i thought there was something in the standard. No it doesn't right you don't know We don't know if not the iab standard. Yeah, it's downloads. It's just downloads, right? You know place and for people who sell cpm Real downloads of what you want to track. So iab is great and iab two and one day iab three You know are are great for those people who want to track how many downloads for those who sell cpm Yeah, which is none of us. Well, maybe paul, but no cpm not the best model for most I would say most podcasters, but you know We saw I guess with these iab compliant stats A lot of systems changed over and it's it's a little more strict in a good way You didn't lose audience. You had the same audience as you did before It's just being reported more accurately in theory. We hope It's a better measurement. So, you know, I think I was reading an article by um, Jessica the kufferman Yeah, that's I said and she was talking about how you know if you had a sponsor before and your numbers went down Your your influence your reach it's all the same, right? Like you don't have to worry about necessarily A sponsor pulling out because all your numbers are down in that case because you're not shouldn't be selling your numbers You should be selling the value that you actually give to that audience. It's the same audience as before um So, you know, I don't do people do you guys look at your stats? I've talked about before I I don't look at my stats anymore, but when you start you surely do paul looks at stats because he has clients probably so I don't know paul. What do you I would say I don't look at stats very much But most of what I'm doing I would categorize as hobby, but you probably you probably focus on stats, right? Yeah, well, but but the stats we look at are not necessarily the downloads You know, um We can take four episodes of a show we can see episode one got consumed 80 percent episode two got consumed 10 percent You know, we know that do more episodes like episode one You know that that's really viable and then if you're doing some sort of call to action in the show Selling something or email newsletter or whatever, you know, if the average person consumed to 40 percent and you made the offer at 60 percent You know, you didn't build your show, right? And so a lot of times we look at the stats to determine how the show is built You know, and then flip side if we're getting newsletters or we're selling something You know, we want I mean downloads is some metric but again You know 5000 downloads of people who only listen for two minutes Is a lot more telling than anything else So If you want less than two minute downloads you go to facebook, right? Well, there's another issue We'll talk about that or there we we have some information related to that as well that paul dug in Go ahead. No, I can I can tell you that as as a hobbyist myself, you know, we don't have any commercial interest in in podcasting But for a while there it was looking at the numbers and and stressing over it and now it's kind of Looking at the numbers as a as a trend, you know, are we are we losing some audience over the last six months or so? and so it's gone from First couple episodes. I was checking them every single day and now here I am four years later, you know Several hundred episodes later Looking at well, this is what the trend has been for the last six months on this show You know the live numbers the the overall downloads and how many people were getting it interact I would rather have actually a really strong chat presence Because it shows that people really care and they're right there in your face and they're interacting and half the time They're providing content while you're doing the show um, so I think it's it's a growing up process not to pay attention to the numbers as much But i'm still curious, you know, I've been doing this for for a couple years not not nearly as long as you guys have but When when is it that that turns off and when does it become important again? You know, when when do you really need to worry about the numbers? Is it do you ever really need to worry about them unless you're selling ads? Maybe not even if you're selling ads Well, you can use it for leverage for other things if you want to get press access or interview a celebrity or something like that Then it's nicer to be able to say. Hey, we've got an audience of this many hundred or this many thousand or whatever it is But the the number itself I think your download number itself is probably one of the least important numbers That you could look at for your stats just that raw number because it doesn't really tell you the full picture Right, and I mean, what do you again back to what are you selling right? Like if you have a if you have if you have 200 Cadillac dealers and that's who you're talking you're selling Cadillacs and that's who you're talking to Then, you know, I'm going to a trade show for Cadillac, but I you know, this other shows a car show It's a general car show. They don't really know who they're talking to but they have a thousand listeners. I mean What are you selling right? You're talking you're selling Target at that point like I mean, I think that's what's most important Like I don't think the numbers matter if you know how to explain that value to the advertiser In theory if you can explain why a low number Can be really powerful if in your case you know who your audience is I think that's more important, right? Probably if you If you spend time knowing who your audience is as much as you are obsessing about how many of them are They're probably it's probably going to help you out a lot, right? So I don't know I just launched some surveys at work. We hadn't done this for years and years But you know trying to figure out who exactly are we talking to because I think what you'll definitely fight I think you'll definitely be surprised Um, you'll assume who you're talking to I assume we're talking to podcast producers right now We're probably talking to a lot of people who have thought about starting a podcast Um, you know, but they're not necessarily podcasters. They're waiting around So the information could be or should be a little different for them. So Knowing who your audience is. I think most of the time Sounds bad, but you're selling your audience Selling the focus of that audience. Yeah. Well and that that raw download number Doesn't give you a whole lot that can actually affect your podcast other than some of those few opportunities But if you instead look at your engagement numbers that can tell you stuff about what are your engagement numbers? Because that that engagement is harder to track. What do you mean by engagement numbers? You could measure it in different ways. It could be how many people take action on something you mentioned How many people purchase something from you? Okay, so so not something that we by default as podcasters have Okay, so because I was thinking oh go to podcast connect and see your retention rates Maybe that that's a it's a brief insight to what every podcaster in theory has Engagement too, but beyond that engagement is really hard to measure feedback, right? Maybe yeah Yeah And and anyone can have some kind of engagement with their podcast the feedback that shares the stuff like that That things with that you get from podcast connect seeing your consumption analytics That can help you make decisions about your episodes Like paul was saying if you see that your audience only listened to a small portion of an episode It will count as a download and it may even count as a complete download But if they only listened to the first two minutes of an hour long episode You'll discover that there's some some kind of problem you need to fix with your podcast If you see your download numbers spike for a particular episode That's not necessarily because of the content of that episode It could be because of your marketing of that episode It could be purely because of the title of that episode that it gets downloaded so much And that's the case like with some of the fake video experiments that I've done in the years past that I saw massive views on a video based on its title But then extremely low audience retention based on the content So these special consumption analytics that we're getting from apple from Spotify from Stitcher from maybe some other players in the space at some point Those are a lot more valuable not for knowing the size of your audience But for helping you make better decisions about how to do your podcast And I think that's the whole purpose of stats really And anthony as you kind of your question I think if your numbers start falling that might be a good time to A good reason to track and a good time to start worrying right? I mean because that's one indicator like if your podcasts tend to grow over time grow slowly I would say the majority of podcasts But if it goes the other way That's you should be paying attention to at least that it's kind of like monitoring your own audio Like you should do that if so you can catch the problems when they happen ideally, um And I mean taking a look at your stats once in a while to make sure you haven't fallen off a shelf for some reason Maybe you maybe You got the privilege of being taken out of apple iTunes because you put one too many keywords or a colon or a bar And oh my gosh, you know, there could be reasons it could be something actually wrong with your podcast Like it's gone. Although. Is it really gone at that point if we are if you all your subscribers You get kicked out of the apple podcast store daniel Are you cut off from your subscribers? I'm hesitating for a reason because it used to be that the answer was to completely straight No, yeah, you're connected to them via your feed, right? Well, they're using podcast app and you're kicked out the thing I'm I want to know now is uh in some of the testing and stuff I've looked at and some of the people have known this for a while that in the new podcast app When someone subscribes to your podcast The rss feed that they're actually hitting is That uh redirect feed that you can see Inside of your podcast connect account for your podcast mirror url. Yeah the mirror url, which follows a basic url Formula that is simply your itunes id along with their mirror url field and that's a 302 temporary feed redirect So if someone new subscribes to your podcast today in apple podcast, they hit that rss feed first so The reason I bring that up is it makes me wonder. Well, what happens if apple removes your podcast From apple podcast for whatever reason Do they also break those mirror urls if they do? Then yes, you're disconnected from your audience. Yeah, that sucks But I don't think they do because that itunes id number that the podcast get Stays unless you have to resubmit your podcast with a new rss feed or something like that So even if your feed your podcast is disabled that id number is still attached to your podcast So I don't think it would break it but it's possible they could Paul you look like you're both interested in the answer But also maybe had some thoughts no no extra insight, right? Well I'll give you one one thing. You know, I got a client who spends over a million dollars in facebook ads He's willing to spend million dollars a year in facebook ads. He's willing to buy an audience Whatever way makes sense So we did overcast fm ads and we did it in his category And we tracked the increase of overcast fm downloads during the course of that ad buy And it was really good And subscribers were good numbers were up and when we left the numbers were still there, you know, they weren't only running during that time So that was very very cool And it did so well that he asked Well, should we leave the category? Should we just go run a site? It was about twice the price But they promised three or four times the views So we ran run a site And We were able to basically determine that he was actually getting less You know from run of sight that he was getting absolutely targeted, you know because the downloads that were coming overcast So in in some cases it's a really good idea. I'd attract what what's going, you know If you get on the audacity to podcast You know, you want to be able to track what your download delta is between that last week and this week With all the the people that that that, you know Is brought to your show as a result So you you want to use your stats to check what's working You know, and then the thing that Daniel said about about the whole, you know, you might be in it for for, you know, whatever um Again if your offer is 60 percent into the show And everybody stops listing 50 percent in the show, you know, it doesn't matter how many downloads you get You know, you got to fix the show So each stat has a different vibe has a different option to it has a different thing to it It's got to kind of put the whole thing together But the big thing is what do you want? You know, if you're there just to figure out who you are and have fun with some friends And that's great, you know, if you're trying to sell a product or a service, that's great If you're You know, if you want to get to that third ad insert so that you can get 120 cpm for your show Then you got to build a show that gets to that third ad insert You know, what's your goal? Do the stat support it and then you go from there What were you saying there about Being able to track like if I go on daniel's show and i'm i'm trying to figure out is it is the traffic coming from being on that show Well, it's just a delta if if my average download on a wednesday night is 50 episodes I go in daniel's show and there's 250 downloads that day and that's the only difference That's really really interesting, right, you know, you know, we had one client. We got one client on um on Libsyn pro. He's got three different shows And anytime we do an insert for show one where he talks about show two even though there's no tracking There's no nothing whenever he inserts we get about 2500 downloads of of that episode that we can't account for anywhere else I mean, yeah, they are you always see release day release day, you know release day And you know, we always do the positioning on a day. That's not a traditional release day And so at least you see trends. Yeah, sure that could have been the day that Libsyn screwed up or that could have been the day that the apple watch podcast update gave everybody those downloads But you do it enough time you can begin to see trends and then you just know what works Right. Yep important to uh to pay attention. There's so many ways I don't know. What do we need from stats? So are we getting enough out of paul since you are tracking for clients? Are you getting everything you you want from stats? I I tend to look at things differently. I tend to be like, what do we have and what can we get from it? I'm not one of these ones that goes on it complains, you know I mean boy once they started giving us consumption inside itunes that was the game changer for me That was that was the thing that I wanted more than anything else. What are you doing is I've gone to clients and I've said One client. What do you think was your best episode this month? What do you think was your worst episode this month? You know and believe it or not They were reversed the only thing you thought was the best was the least consumed The only thought was the worst was the most consumed, you know and that kind of data is really really powerful I think another piece of data We looked at a client at his september downloads And his september downloads only 23 of them were august and september content. Everything else was archival You know the stuff and you know and that that's really really key This idea that we think we're building a show for this week When you know 67 of his audience was more than 60 days out Um, that gives us a real insight into who his audience is and what we can do about that And you know, you know pace for the dynamic add insertion I would it's funny because I two days ago apparently as i'm looking at my twitter um, I tweeted this out sort of just Happass I just tweeted out as I was thinking of it. Let me know what you guys think I said trying to determine out an outlier in an episode stats It would be really helpful if in podcasts connect. I could search the popularity of keywords Example how many times people search for a term inside itunes or apple podcast I said one can dream because I can't we have a A spike which rob walsh would not call a spike, but a diff definitely difference. Um coming from somewhere It's we have an episode that's that's downloaded. I guess you could say Twice as many as any other that's a couple thousand downloads. I want to know how that happened So i'm trying to figure so i'm going i'm uh, i'm uh, what's the uh, some social hacking it What's it? Is that what that's called when you social when you socially engineer whatever i'm trying to figure out I'm asking people. Did you share this? Did you embed it? Did you post it? Did you tweet it? But it could be like dan, you're saying it could be title right people could just be Finding this title attracted to this title whatever it is. That would be really cool if in podcast connect I could see sort of like a like a google um just to track keywords like what's popular today Or how many times is this keyword searched in apple podcast? That would be I'd like that Would it be do you think that would be useful? It would be extremely useful But again, the promise is going to be reverse engineered and then people are going to start, you know, putting podcast in with those titles My prediction is you're you're going to um, you know, you can buy keyword terms in the app store now And so you can reverse engineer what people are searching for in the app store at least based on how many times your ad pops up That's coming to itunes You know and you're going to be able to do that and then I think at that point People will buy terms just to find out how many times those are viewed a day and do the reverse engineering But google I mean This has been something that exists forever right but google somehow inside of google Yeah, but podcast is is podcast search The same as google search the same as youtube search. I mean this is the big question Everyone wants to know and apple's keeping that pretty clean now, you know, you know Overcast I think probably has some pretty good stats as well But overcast is of course, they're the they're the aggressive power user audience, which is fantastic But man, I know what people are searching for, you know, just from a service standpoint I mean, you know in podcast about podcasting, you know, wouldn't it be great if we knew That this was the term that everybody was looking for I I think there's a little bit of just I want to serve my audience And if they're looking for this, you know, let's let's produce a show about it Yeah, I mean youtube this this works really well What if things like that were were presented in aggregate instead of, you know, by episode or, you know, by By day or whatever else if it was like, hey apple came out with this yearly report on this is what people are searching for in the app store this year You know and didn't provide any other detail At least it gives us some a clue to go into without giving us too much information to hack with Like there's there's other ways of giving us the information that we need and we want to To push this forward without giving us something that we can immediately Game the system with Right, and that's what I figured google youtube these these companies have to have this figured out, right? So I I mean, can you ask? I could just post an engineer for like a feature. Yeah that I want I can even back from vid summit Last week. I don't know if you're familiar with that event daryl eves Puts it on daryl is one of the best in the industry daryl. Good friend of the show. No, I don't Daryl is daryl's amazing and the cool thing is is daryl can stand on stage and go last year My client's got 26 billion earned views. You know, do you want to see what the stats are? And daryl was able to show You know and when you have 26 billion entries to play from you can actually Speak with authority, you know is able to show that. Hey, you know shows was swearing get less ads Get less cpm and we know that youtube all things being equal will play show with an ad So, you know, if you want to get seen more take out the swearing Um, you know youtube all things being equal if a show gets a 10 second view and another show gets a 5 second view YouTube will send people to the 10 second view because that's a better experience for youtube And this is where I think apple could jump into play You know, if apple knows that daniel's show gets three times the consumption mind does Then it's it's due to apple to put his show before mine You know, and that's where I think we could serve people better right now and if we actually based Search and charting based on consumption as opposed to how many bangladeshian servers can hit a subscribe button in five seconds You know, we could have an entirely different game and that's where apple could use these stats to really Um, you know, I mean, they know when people subscribe. They know when people unsubscribe They know how much they consume, you know, they could build a psychometric for what people are actually consuming Do search on that and whatnot and really just raise the game in some ways that have never been raised before YouTube's doing it On facebook who knows what they're up to the the news this week has been fascinating But apple could do this and if you look at what apple's doing right now There are some areas that they are completely ignoring You know, the desktop is ignored. I mean, it's just ignored yet yet You know, one interesting thing. I don't know if anybody's noticed this or it's just me They don't distinguish between audio and video podcast anymore on on the ios devices or or on the apple tv So there's some places where apple's definitely going There's some places that apple's definitely ignoring But they have the opportunity to look at the stats and provide a better experience for our audience I think that's the direction they're going to go too because that's a good way to fix this problem too If people in the system by systematically subscribing to podcasts You you measure it on the actual consumption And that's that's although Subscriptions are the currency of podcasts consumption is really the value So so i'm gonna challenge that statement. I understand the spirit of that statement, but I got I got a fun one for you. Um I want to be careful of this. I was able to monitor the results of someone who went up the charts Through bangladeshian means if you will and here's the thing It's not downloads. It was purely subscribed. It was subscribed and then get out before you could even download so Straight up the charts with no impact at all on downloads not they downloaded and they didn't listen But no impacted all on downloads and just went like this, you know to the root because of of subscription So all this apple has to do is just stop solely on that metric You know go solely, you know go to consumption, which they have You know if they would just track it and then they could be at a better place So subscription is the currency currently, but it's not you know, it's not the real currency because you know Yeah, anyway, then we're just gonna turn into bitcoin where all these servers just listen to podcasts Just you subscribe download and just press play my friend. It's just a little bigger script. That's all But the nice thing about that is that makes it much more expensive to try to get that is nice My issue So with with all this being said with the numbers being essentially Not useful and and people being able to pay to get their rankings up on the the faux charts that the apple and Everyone else has Is consumption the real thing that we need to do and are we just waiting for someone to standardize the way to report the consumption? So that the apps and the services can all go by the same metric is that really what we need to Really need to strive for It's the metric that excites me the most Because it's a metric of service You know, I mean are they actually listening to this show? I mean we've been going now for how long on this episode You know, did everybody you know download this thing and go? Hey, it's paul. I'm out of here and we're done I mean, let's You know Consumption will know based on we'll know if they want to stare at us for this long because youtube can tell us right Exactly. Well, and that's just it when winner who who should be the one to Develop that standard so the podcasts have similar tracking as youtube And is there a single person that can that can do it or a single entity that can do it? And is there a single entity that should do it and How do we as a community of podcasters? How can we kind of pressure that decision matrix down the line a little bit to to kind of get this going? Is there a way is there a path from here to there? I think the iab it clearly seems like has become i'm seeing it referenced everywhere as a standard I mean they but not for consumption iab is truly what's a real download I know but i'm saying if there's anyone to push Like yeah, that's true. That's the vehicle like it feels like that's the way I feel like they're going to lead this standardization and so That's where we have to go to right and we don't I think we don't have the money I think apple has a unique chance. I think if apple Apple doesn't care about podcasts is that's what I've heard recently. Like they don't care about us, right? They don't care about selling iPhones and apple tv's and ipads The problem with the problem with apple is they don't care about sharing their information with other people So if it's going to be an industry standard, you know something that everyone can use and feed into and pull from Apple isn't going to want to take part in that unless they're forced to because that's just apple's way Well, well, yes and no like like straight stats are there, but the thing is if I want to know What podcast is the best podcast in the how to podcast space? And apple lists the podcast about podcasting in order of what actually serves the audience the most I can go My god, Daniel's king You know and Dave jackson's a joker, you know, and now I know who to model and and I know who to who to emulate and So apple won't necessarily Give us those straight numbers, but if their results actually showed I mean that's what you do in youtube now You know, I mean you want to find out who who is the best video for a certain term? Search that term watch that video see what they did, you know and and and manipulate it I think I think that's kind of that leads to something I don't like and it's crushes creativity like You can be better than that person if you find out a new way that you know what I mean If you bring yourself to it like I don't want to see repeats We're going to see everyone pop everyone copies stuff that's good And that's not necessarily bad to be motivated by it, but To be doing it to get more audience Bugs me because you know, especially the podcasting there are no damn rules And I want to see I've always said I want to see what the kids come up with show me something different, man And if it is really that good it will pass that that already established model of good so Yes and no, I guess is where I'm at. I hear it. It's not bad, but I Think the problem is I don't know. There's always a problem when we're trying to figure out how to I did to find line between growing as a creator right learning getting better and then Doing it just for numbers Or popularity, right? So That's that's a tough But even on that I mean even like your hobbyist that doesn't care about numbers at all And is never going to sell anything or or really try to develop a huge audience of any sort As creators we seek validation external validation Like it's one thing to be a great painter and look at your own painting go. Hmm. That's pretty nice But we as creators we like to hear the other people are enjoying the things that we're creating So there's always going to be that that balance of yeah, the numbers don't matter But but they they matter right? I mean and when you do want to reach the people who you know want to hear it right You're like I do this certain kind of comedy or you know, I do a video channel about Gear and I want to make sure I get in front of the people who want to consume it That's the thing right there's a balance between getting in front of your actual audience And then just being like I just want to be popular, right? Yeah Yeah, a lot of my favorite, um youtube videos in fact since we're kind of Showing that parallel a little bit are the people Like the vlogbrothers I love loved watching them in the beginning because they were doing something new and different and is twice a week And it was two different perspectives and sometimes they bounced off each other like that wasn't there And then all of a sudden there's tons of them and I don't watch it anymore because it's just not It didn't spark anything. Um, I watch a lot of photographers and you see um Peter McKinnon is kind of my favorite right now and you're watching him and his videos are Kind of the same thing everyone else is doing but with a little bit a different flair And it keeps my interest and that's what I'm looking for in podcasts too is You know, I want the same thing that everybody's trying to do but do it in your own way And that that's always the hard thing to find and search for and especially when you you have charts But they don't actually mean what you think they mean and there's no way of really Finding the things on a scale of any sort of what you what else you might be interested in And i'm glad there's finally some sites out there that trying to cross-reference and index and be the imdb Of podcasting so you can kind of see where the links are and what else you might be interested in But that that's just a big void right there in the middle as well Is the the natural discovery from one per if you're a listener or a viewer of podcast And you're trying to find something similar to what you're listening to Then you really just go and chase down the other people on that show and see what else they're into And it's really a manual process. There's no algorithmic way of doing it because these charts don't really mean anything Yeah, you too does a great job at at Putting stuff in front of me that I haven't seen that I want to see and I think the problem with podcasts is you don't have Slow motion and b-roll anthony and that's it's a peter mckinnon joke, but You know, um one of the stats though last week speaking to what you just said though here And and boy you want to talk about discovery and podcasting one of the stats for vid summit last week was 70% of all views at youtube are recommended videos Yeah, that's what I mean. They do a great job. That's me. I'm I'm clicking them because they don't know Who in this room would like to have 70% of their views coming from or listens coming from apple recommending If you'd like this you'd like this Yeah, and that might actually feed into the uh into the The theory that you know the top and the new and noteworthy actually means something because in youtube It sure does when youtube shows something in front of you everybody wants to click on it But no one sees no one sees new and noteworthy. I mean like and I've always said that that When you had to go to the itunes store and you it was a nice big desktop image and you could see all the other podcasts I subscribed to them all when they other people are listening to this I so because it's just there. I was like yep that title. Yep that title. Yep You know another hard part about podcasts is you can't easily sample a podcast. It's just harder I don't know even if youtube is I mean in theory youtube is equally hard. You still have to That watch a little bit but something about even being visual You almost know immediately. Yeah, I mean they're in or i'm out I don't know what it is But it is hard to sample podcasts that makes that part of it harder But but letting us know what other people Who listen to that show also are listening to is huge and I think daniel didn't you say they are doing this in the app Right podcast app. I just don't think it's in in your face enough I mean besides when you're looking at youtube video, you're staring at a screen right when you pick up your podcast You press play it goes back in your pocket and you're out of there. You're not looking at And the screen on youtube it often will automatically jump to a related video Yeah, if you leave yourself paying attention it'll jump Yeah, well and it is more in front of your face in the apple podcast app on ios because now with ios 11 Since ios 11 they brought those people also listen to recommendations into your library So if you scroll down all the way to the bottom all the way to the bottom already subscribed to Yeah, it's listed. Yeah, I know it's all the way at the bottom, but That is much more visibility than it had before apple's been watching the round table It's clear and i'm watching i'm listening. It's very clear. All me I told i told him there's a long time um The other thing is like I had to question some of that stuff because every time i see a podcast that is recommended to me It recommends something that i know i'm not going to like like if i get recommended to joe rogan podcast one more time I might delete that app, you know, it's just like i don't like that show I like others like it but that one doesn't doesn't spark me at all But it's on every every recommendation that i've You know, if there's two guys talking joe rogan is on there as as the next recommendation It's like come on. There's more out there than just you know one. Yeah And you know, ideally it would take into I guess we could like this in theory could be privacy issue But i'm sure it's how youtube does it it also plays into what you are consuming currently, right? You're like he's never clicked on joe rogan Like it's just like we'll stop serving that in but he's listening to these others and you can establish a Sort of profile of what you might like They it's an engine they need to do better on i'm sure But again podcast is trying to make that right and then we've heard the long awaited pandora has got their special algorithm, which i don't think I think the idea there is to pandora is great I actually just finally started premium after just years and years i'm saying i i i'm not going to do it I knew I would eventually I started it. It's fantastic because I can skip but I don't get an affiliate income So don't do anything with that um But pandora is fantastic because it goes back to that sampling issue where within a couple seconds I'm like oh yep. Nope thumbs up thumbs down, right? That doesn't work with podcasting you can't don't don't start playing a podcast Next I first of all I just listened to a podcast for 45 minutes I've probably arrived at my destination and i'm done, but if you're gonna shuffle podcast. I don't see that working It's long form content generally podcasts are long form content So you look at other long form content like books or movies And there is no sampling out there really there are trailers Yeah, you could say that's kind of a sample and and you work good for movies Yeah, and that works and and people get hyped about a movie often from its trailer And there's a lot of marketing that goes into the movie But their whole goal is get you to watch or buy that movie But that's one thing that's not necessarily a series. So then you could consider well What about book series or tv series and again? It's the marketing the What other people are saying what your friends are saying? Where is it being promoted in other places? but it's not any kind of Automated thing now there are sites out there that try to match you with your ideal movie like you enter into it If you like this movie, then you'll probably also like these other movies. That's good a recommendation engine Which i've used A dozen times people don't use that. That's it the the population as a whole is not really going to use that thing, right? It has to be I mean the apple has them has the lockdown on consumption in an app I mean, you know, if you're well, if you you got to think There's what well first of all overcast I pood the overcast ads for the longest time because the whole demographic of overcast users They're the power users These are the people who have the religion. These are the people who know the shows they want You know, so I ever thought like why in the world would I ever advertise to them? But the numbers are real. Uh, it's it's been fantastic. And I think what what overcast has shown Independently is the people who do have the religion are looking for better shows So, you know, if i'm in a business, let's see who's in business and advertising there really makes sense or or the twitter friends Make sense But for the pandora thing, I want to suggest You know going back to a little bit of um Of um, uh, what's his face from edison? Um, um tom tom webster Tom's whole thing that you know, we got two times of people people who have the religion people who don't more people use pandora every month than listen to podcast every month And this is a group who's used to saying I like 80s music show me something Right, and I think a world where we say I'm into Nerd culture show me something not really that that one wouldn't work But like I'm into travel. Let me listen to something. I'm into business. Let me listen to something I'm into left or right politics. Let me listen to something. Um, I think pandora could be a discovery mechanism The likes of which we haven't seen before because you know, we've all had that friend who's like What kind of podcast is there for me? You know, we all do the daniel thing of what's your favorite tv show But but but the whole world of what people are into is a lot more than that and i'll tell you sampling This is where pandora could win and pandora call me. Um, you know pandora could serve You know 1000 times every politics show to people who say they're interested in politics see how soon they clip out You know so send a thousand here send a thousand here send a thousand here send a thousand here And then realize that show number three is getting three times the consumption of all the other shows Like this is where the power of this can really come to play And so yes, I agree with the idea that like i'm 45 minutes. I'm done, but that's for us That's for the power user But for somebody who's like I just want something better than drive time radio there's nobody than nobody better than pandora to to Bring it to you especially if you just go like comedy I like business Like travel and I think I think you're right I think the idea of saying I I like these things maybe put your interest in and it shows you something because I mean, I think we've seen on surveys I think people a lot of people say it. Well, I don't I don't know if I don't I don't think there's anything for me Or I don't know what to listen to right. I don't know what podcasts I listen to like if someone doesn't tell me So being able to go into a system like that and again, you probably already Are those people are more likely to have pandora Um and pandora will have a major push and be like hey It just like music in or genre and will will produce you will present you with content You might like so I think in that way it could work for A little less power user a non power user even a power user obviously yeah Yeah, no no power users, but there's a lot of people who are not power users and well We want those people we want that we want everyone right? I mean that's the point We need to grow listenership beyond people who aren't already listening But where this becomes a big problem is that? That's siloing the solution. So maybe pandora comes up with the perfect solution It only applies to people who listen to podcasts through pandora It doesn't work in the other 99.9% but that puts pressure on those other Those other platforms to build something like it. I mean if if it's gonna be profits, right? If pandora finds out holy cow, this works like gangbusters Other company apples gonna be like I mean if you're in if you're instagram, you just steal it, right? I mean like you see this Oh stories snapchat. Sure. We just do that. So, you know, please find something that really works well I'm guarantee these other companies will figure out how to implement is is there opportunity daniel Let's say they do this. Okay, and let's say they've they've Finally brought the discovery engine that podcasters have been asking for forever. Okay Could could the podcaster then introduce other vehicles to consume podcast with? You know, could they bring up overcasts? Could they bring up some of the other channels and talk about that for people who didn't even know that was an option? I don't I think that starts putting Unnecessary burden on the audience When you start saying hey, you should try out this other podcast app When your audience is probably thinking and your audience of just a casual podcast listener, not the Podcasters out there for listen, but they're thinking why should I do that? I already have an app that works Yeah, you can forget that idea. I don't I missed out a little bit looking at the chat But if it's about moving people to apps But I do think there is something that the podcaster can do and that is to be the pandora for their audience To say if you like our show you might also like such and such But that gets into an area where I think there are two Two sides of conflict that podcasters face with that one is the competition perspective Where podcasters can often feel competitive to say I don't want to recommend my competition I don't want to say hey if you like the audacity to podcast You should also listen to school of podcasting or the podcast report or whatever But the other aspect so even if you make it past that Competition perspective the other aspect and this is especially Among the podcasts that have a massive following Is they only want to promote their stuff Their own network so even and this is the big fault of my own podcast network is that it's too diverse So I can't really say in the audacity to podcast. Hey, if you like the audacity to podcast Listen to our podcast about a tv show Like that major disconnect. It's why well, okay, maybe if you like me so I could just say hey if you love me I host another podcast and certainly yes, people will follow that kind of thing But I think it's more important to recommend those kinds of podcasts to your audience And sometimes you have to be the better man or the better woman to stand above Self-promotion and stand above the competitive attitudes and just serve your audience better Well, I think that and that's part of it is like it's what's what's the motivation, right? I'm getting a big gold Feedback here. Hold on and a loop here myself Mixed mine has gone bad. I don't know what's going on. Um podcasters say What's the motivation for me to do that right and I mean I think at some point you have to it's kind of like selling the value of downloads versus listens versus your audience In you know by growing the space you'll bring more people in the podcasting and hopefully that'll come back to you But that's a hard thing to do to spend your time doing that on an episode Of your own show. I mean we get it in this space because I'm going to tell people Hey paul covered this thing go check out podcast report and you know, I'm going to be entered He's going to introduce his My audience to him and it goes back and forth But I think most podcasters wouldn't see the value and and growing the space as it is Um, and then you said serving your audience, right? I mean making your audience happy Being like, oh my gosh, you introduced me to another great show I'm not going to listen to yours anymore, but I'm I'm but I have time for that one. I'm kidding. That's a joke, but um I don't know We've we've I really jumped off We we kind I feel like we've kind of hit on we didn't need to we didn't need to Dive into um other stories here because we have the rotten apple podcast charts. Um They're being gamed, right? We know that blah blah whatever Um, is there any more there anyone wants to cover? Man, and we kind of we've sort of hit on that Uh, we've hinted at the at the chartable Thing right daniel. Do you have that story on here chartable? What do you want to say about that? Yeah, it's the same thing about the people who are gaming the system and apple does seem to be taking action Maybe it's only though when it's pointed out to them. Hey this podcast looks like it's Gaming the system. Maybe they have something now that um red flags a podcast when it seems to be like a nobody podcast suddenly making it into the top charts and Maybe they're they're tweaking their algorithms. I don't know, but I'm sure That because apple is so focused on the user experience Sometimes I would say even to the detriment of the creators experience But because they're so focused on that user experience, I expect they're going to fix this problem It and that seems like a tough one, right? A nobody Seemingly nobody comes out of nowhere. There are so many people that have massive audiences that we wouldn't really know about So I guess they're probably seeing. Oh, these are these are so subs with no downloads or no plays kind of like what Paul was saying, right? I mean, I would imagine that's what's going on here. Isn't that what's going on? I didn't read the article So is that how these are being game people are popping up? It has to be that we established its subscribers over like last 24 hours, right? Yeah Okay, in fact, I've got an ongoing dialogue with someone through facebook who you know Rocky shamanan or whatever from some Overseas country not his real name And he's been offering to help me promote my podcast And so I've been just exchanging this dialogue with the scammer and I've gotten names of podcasts He's helped. He's told me some of his clients. So now I know. Oh, okay those podcasters Gamed the system And only a thousand or did he really help them? How do you know he's a scammer or does he maybe he's just good? I mean paul will do it for you and he he's good Well, see if if I ask paul a question like paul you say you're going to help my podcast rank better How would you do that? What would paul's answer be? You well, we have a huge network of people who would love to listen to your snow No, I'd say apple charts are based on subscribes Let's get you as many subscribes as we can in 24 hours and bringing up the charts And then your approach to that i'll answer kind of this for you would be to find actual people Right. Yeah, actually subscribe. They subscribe my ideal and then the first question I have you is do you have a list? Do you have a following? Do you have a whatnot? And then if you say no, I go, yeah, charting is not a strategy for you And we have a lot of people that's charting is not a strategy for You know, I've got a client right now who has a million active users a million active users on their email list right now You know when they launch their show, they're going to be a number one podcast period You know, but legitimately um, even if their content sucks, you know and Um, we're we're making the content better and that's going to work But but if they get a million people to go, hey, we got a podcast at itunes click here to listen That's legit and that's real and that should chart Yeah, that's one of the things when I was looking around at some of the articles today A lot of these companies will let's say All of them that I that I've read into They promise that you'll chart and they promise that you'll you'll be this high up on the chart So this this or that none of them talk about actual listeners It's all about just getting your placement on the chart itself All the research all the research I've done they um, they they have a playbook that they play from and then what they claim Is uh, especially those guys were doing the $5,000 a week thing a couple a little while ago um, they claim that they have an exhaustive list Of podcast fanatics who want to hear about your show You know and they have so many people interested in podcasting. I had one guy tell me Uh, he did it and he said yeah, apparently these guys are really big in the whole Conservative radio world and just by introducing me to all the conservative radio listeners I can get to number one for the the finance topic. I mean, no, no, that's not real So they have a playbook they play from they and they say that you know, and they say it's real rankings It's real people. It's real downloads You know, nobody's gonna. Yeah, we're hacking the system And I think some of them are actually probably what I really want to find out is like where's the center of all this I know everybody's kind of reselling somebody else. I want to kind of get down to You know, you know who patient zero is on this Um, so I believe some of the guys actually believe that's it But every case I've tracked five different instances and every single time from five different providers Every single time no change in downloads at all and I worked with podcast hosting companies to verify this issue and um, no change in downloads just subscribes That's it Anthony you kind of uh hinted at that there are Either sites or some type of um, some some type of thing that's giving a better idea of Tracking like what's popular or introducing. I don't know. I think I feel like we might have brought it up before I thought chartable was that kind of that that thing Is that what chartable? No, isn't chartable is just using the apple podcast data. Okay But anything do you remember? I don't I'm referring back poorly, but do you remember you talked about the imdb type thing Yeah, the imdb. Yes, exactly Pod chaser. I think yeah pod chaser. That's the one. That's the one. There's there's another one and uh, yeah, it's if you can Taking on the task of indexing the podcast world Is such a daunting task just start off with I applied anyone willing to try it I think a blueberry seems to have a decent grip on this that I think would I think I think todd is pretty He's cut. I think he has more than what's in apple. I mean Yeah, and that's and that's being a provider as opposed to you know I am db doesn't serve you movies even though they're part of amazon But you know if you can be this neutral Body that just wants to index and show links and things like that that is that's an astronomical detail to try to try to do Um, and I think if if we can get a service or two preferably at least two They can do this effectively. I think that'd be that can be a huge resource as content producers as listeners Um as as marketing professionals like there's there's so much there If you can if you can make those links if you can get that that data to line up and see who all does what and you And you have a central repository for it I think that would be amazing and really push the you know really raise the tide as it were For everyone involved just because there there's so many other ways Which you can view that data and and construe it to how you need to see to to grow or to capture your audience I think that's where Pod track is positioning themselves without a chaser pod track. No pod track. Okay, but With pod track since they are able to track the downloads and they can say this podcast has the most downloads It's only those who have opted in to use pod track And even if blueberry or libson were to do the same Then it would be only those who opted in to use those services But there is blueberry blueberry tracks without you don't have to be on blueberry doesn't pod I doesn't Todd tried to you do have to well blueberry has a I mean for in terms of Todd's Directory you don't have to be on blueberry to be in his directory Right, but that doesn't necessarily track how popular the podcast is. No, I'm saying I'm saying he just no just in terms of Capturing like capturing as all the podcasts. I think Todd has podcasts that don't exist and and I do like Most places are just pulling the iTunes Uh library, right? Well, I think Todd has more than that Well, google has like three million in their directory. Yes google is they're blowing everyone out of the water They have they have all this is what they do so they should be able to They should but they don't they they they're they're they're learning I suspect that number is down to one million So I guess I'm saying because I'm thinking oh, yeah, who's going to use the power users are going This is the site the power users use right, but I mean Anthony said yeah producers great for content creators Um marketers like you said what else what is happening? What's your vision? Um say there's an independent site that has pretty much captured all rss feeds So it actually is a podcast. It's not just on youtube and um What are they doing? What would you hope that they would do with that? For for me the ideal solution wouldn't just be Capturing the feeds it'd be capturing all the the metadata along with it You know who's been on the shows what guests they've had what other shows are linked in you know So you can look at a uh say a podcaster like like Tom Merritt. You can see okay Well, he did buzz out loud for these years here with these other people associated and then he went over to The twit network and did these shows with these people then he went independent now He's doing and you can kind of just follow that tree down and see you know, not necessarily the Venn diagram but the the the ancestry of tom's podcast career and see what else is related well He's done four shows with Scott Johnson So you know those two I might want to look into more things that Scott's done because those likely to be related and You know kind of see how that's going through kind of like um almost how Uh linked in does relationships with people like you can see a list of people and it tells you how many You know generations away from that person you are You know, oh, I'm only three people away from this guy here and he does You know, I admire him because of the work he did here Well, then you know, you can try to make those connections and something that can bring that to light Not just the rss feeds themselves but a lot of that metadata that can really be used to give you a visual visualization of other things you might be interested in topics content producers You know hosts that kind of thing networks I think that's really As far as you know, not worrying about the numbers per se, but worrying about The the stuff within the the podcast that might be where where the next horizon could be Cool. You guys You guys want to see something like that? I mean potchaser is doing I think they're doing a good job of Like figuring out where someone has been like isn't it? I've never even gone over there yet, but I keep hearing people Mentioned things about it. It's like, oh, I I didn't even remember I was on that podcast, but it shows it there Well, I think things like that are neat The imdb of podcasts you're taking a Decentralized Ego system and trying to centralize it and it's it just doesn't seem to be working very well Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't know if there's harm but tracking it as best as you can Right. I mean, that's isn't that that's kind of what they're trying to do, right? Trying to give us a picture by tracking it as much as possible But I can't tell you how many tv shows or movies I've found by looking on imdb and seeing Other things that the people are involved in and being oh, hey Let me check that out and it turns out to be a really good movie because you know Some of the same people are involved but but see that that's the It's a different evolution with imdb and movies movies are I would say they're not I'd say movies are centralized in Their distribution, you know, you see a movie either in the theater You see it now through some kind of streaming service or you see it on disc or purchase it in some way it's it's very simple very small centralized system And sites like imdb got popular because movies were around Decades before the internet was around and so then the internet comes along It starts to solve some of these problems and starts to create these databases of movies. Whereas with podcasts databases existed and the internet the web existed before podcasts and It's it's just so much of a different medium It's kind of like why don't we have an imdb of blogs out there Now maybe someone somewhere in the blogging industry has tried to create that but it's It's a trying to solve a problem. I think the audience is not necessarily looking for Now what they could do for other content creators. I think that's their ideal audience To to find ways that they can serve the industry The creators in the industry by either tracking certain analytics for people or by showing Relationships between different podcasts and such that's that could be helpful I think more to the podcasters less to the audience Well, so I don't I don't use imdb unless I need to unless I'm trying to figure out who a person is or I'm like, where have I seen them before so I'm curious Because I doubt why is imdb popular? What do you think it's used for most Who uses it like, you know, I mean, I'm what's really going on. I don't think it's a Thing that people go to en masse to Find what movie they want to see next. I never even I never even thought of it that way I just always for me. It's just like it lists out a person's career and an acting industry well for for I can I can only speak for my household, of course, but We have two types of imdb years in our family. We have me who looks at it as a reference Oh, well, you know, what else is this person been in so I can go watch that and then you have pretty much the rest of my family who is the Um, oh, I'm seeing this and I know that person. Let me find out what who they are Oh, and then let me go back and oh, I've seen them this and this and this and they sit there and have a discussion about it And it's all based on the the the information in imdb Um, it's more of an external thing where for me it's internal like I just want to see what else But that's where I think it could it could really link in so if you had if you had a I'm not a comprehensive because I think that you know not exhausted because I think that'd be impossible for podcasts because there's just so many of them, but if you had a 50 solution on podcasts in that same kind of format and then say Um, overcast linked into it. So you're listening to a show and you swipe left right up down whatever it is for that particular app And it shows you here's here's a link to this You know this host or this guest or whatever and you tap on it and it brings up a list of other things that they've been in Especially um, like in in tech news. There's certain personalities that float around and you see them all the time But what else have they been in? What other episodes have they been in and you can go in there and tap, you know This person's name uh, joe smith. Oh, he's been in these podcasts right here I can go and file find out exactly what episodes they've been in I think that as a podcast listener would be great for me But I just might be that I personally I think the key there is what you said is that a is an app is integrating this tech Because I just no site that does any of these things dude that gets used in mass. I don't think right It's like the power users will use but if it's plugged into from other sites because now we're just going back to the same We're going back to the original idea of We need these apps that already have our attention to then turn us on to other stuff, right? And I think in that way it's good because a lot of times we say with podcasting Hey, they come for the they come for the you know They come for the the content and they stay for the host right so it would be cool To see oh, hey, I also you know I want to see what else this person is in and you are more likely because you like that person to follow over there So in that way Then I do think and I think it goes back to what problem or we saw there's a problem that doesn't exist So there's a problem where You know, it maybe maybe there's a problem rob would say there is not that Things are not showing me New stuff, I guess it's it's it basically just circles around discoverability. We want better discoverability I was gonna say I I hesitate to use the word discoverability, but um It is discovery. I mean, okay, let's let me fall on that knife for you then. Yeah, there you go I Paul do you think we have dare I even bring it up? But you know rob's not here. I think rob rob seems to be the lone warrior here and Rob fried about a lot of things. Do we have just do you like would you like to see? Better discoverability whatever that means to you Yes, all right I'd like to see it for the non nerds You know the I think ed's tom tom webster calls them, you know the 54 um The people who don't know is that the person is that a percentage? What's the yeah? I think it's like the 54 percent who's who has never listened to a podcast or something It's some number he had But but remember those of us who are in the know we're entirely different than the people who aren't Yes, and discoverability for those who aren't You know is an entirely different world and and that's where I think our our next audience comes from my my future is not getting You know you all listen to another show my future is to introduce your show to Another demographic, you know, I'm doing an event. I'm doing an event next week where um, we're launching the podcast of a gal who's 84 And she's got a room of about 300 people in the in the audience and I'm going to predict that Of the 350 of them listen to podcast, you know, we're going to introduce podcast to 250 people And um in the back of the room, we're going to have tech support like bring your phone because statistically speaking They've got a phone that makes it possible, you know, they're the ones where discoverability is an issue Yeah, okay Well, I'm going to wrap it up with the best tip that you're ever going to hear on the round table And that is to just go get yourself a super bowl ad and your podcast will be discovered so I've solved all the issues We can wrap it up Because they're not listening. Oh anyways, all right, we are going to wrap it up. Um Let me know where we can let the audience know where they can find your podcast So they can discover you right here on the round table. The best search discoverability search engine on the web Anthony thanks for joining us for your first round table always welcome back It is a pleasure being here. I'm glad to meet you guys on on the chat and uh, it's a lot of fun cruise on over to ritual misery.com and find all the things that I'm doing and A lot of it is nsfw because well, we don't care about getting those numbers that'll go up if we Cut the cursing. So we have a good time. There's a lot of different topics on there and uh, it's it's a lot of fun So come have some fun with us ritual misery.com awesome. Thanks and daniel. Thanks again co-hosting The round table Check me out over at the audacity to podcast.com where when I bring back content It will be published over there as well as announcements of something new coming Very cool. And paul. Thanks for jumping in late. Dave, uh, paul is dave today So he doesn't get counted to a t-shirt for paul. Sorry bud But thanks for joining us Where should we go? We already know podcast report dot com. Right I'll see very short like dave. So you're doing your job. All right Checks in the mail, buddy That's it podcast is round table 119 go to podcast around table dot com slash guest if you want to sign up Bring you on to a round table and we'll bring up one story and then we'll talk about whatever we want Because that's what we do here in round table. We we split off. We have fun campfire conversation about podcasting Wave goodbye. We're out of here. See you