 Apologies for starting late today. We've had a flurry of activity. It's parliament sitting live this morning and the minister has just headed off for a division. So there's a lot of action going on without imminent speakers that have joined us. Today I'm joining you from Canberra, the land of the Ngunnawal and Nambri people for our Australian audience who join us from different parts of the country. I would like to acknowledge the land of the first Australians who you meet with us on. Pay my respects to elders past and present, as well as the emerging elders, some of whom we work alongside at ANU. Thank you for joining us today for the fourth big picture series panel discussion. And I'd like to particularly extend a welcome to the many audience members who are joining us from across Oceania. During the 2020 bushfires, people from across the Pacific committed defence, force, personnel and funds. Prime Minister Morrison acknowledged the loving response from our Pacific family. Now the oceanic region faces a new set of challenges. While many Pacific Island countries have managed to close their borders to keep out COVID-19 cases, all countries are facing a growing economic crisis in part due to the lack of tourism. Many countries are severely impacted by tropical cyclone Harold. These challenges prompt the question, what does our shared regional future look like in a post COVID-19 world? Does it involve some of the following? Inclusion in the Trans-Pacific bubble as a pathway to economic recovery. Greater recognition of the ongoing impacts to the region caused by climate change. Longer term and more flexible seasonal worker program opportunities. These and other important regional issues are going to frame our discussions today. I'm James Batley from the ANU's Department of Pacific Affairs. And before we get underway, it's my pleasure to introduce our distinguished panel to you all this morning. First, I'm delighted to welcome from Samoa, the Honourable Fiamme Naomi Matafa, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Natural Resources and Environment. Great to have you with us, Deputy Prime Minister. From Fiji, I'm delighted that we've got my old friend, the Honourable Ayaz Sayed Kayum, Attorney General and Minister for Economy, Civil Service and Communications. And I believe also the Minister responsible for climate change. From Australia, we're also delighted to have the Honourable Alex Hawke who's had to step out just briefly because Parliament's sitting and there's a division. He will be with us momentarily. Alex Hawke, as I'm sure you know, is the Minister for International Development and the Pacific, as well as being the Assistant Defence Minister. So it's great that you could all join us this morning, a very warm welcome to you all. And I'd like to start our discussion this morning by asking our Pacific guests if they could describe to us briefly the effect that COVID-19 or I suppose the COVID-19 response and lockdown has had on your country. How has that impact been felt in your economy, in your society? And good morning again to everyone joining this session. I think some was experience of COVID-19 is very much the shared experience globally with the impact of the lockdown and how that has affected our economies. But perhaps in addressing the COVID challenge, we have had to have a look at our capacities within our health systems. And I think that is the priority. Although we are COVID free, the weaknesses in our health infrastructure is such that we have to ensure that we do prepare in case COVID does arrive in Samoa. But secondly, also how we can prevent it, especially since there is no cure so far. So just following on James with repairing is having to then coordinate our responses, not only internally with our health infrastructure, but also with the regional and international communities to assist us, especially with supplies. Now, we had the measles outbreak in Samoa and we were very fortunate with the international personnel that was able to come to Samoa. But I think the COVID experience is such and we're seeing it internationally. It is going to be very difficult to expect to have international personnel, this to countries. So essentially the supplies have been around, the coordination has been around supplies. This has been through the Pacific humanitarian pathways and also of course, the bigger tower agreement within the region and this essentially is more, the political cover to the coordination and the work that's being carried out. And also to ensure that if there are blockages in terms of those humanitarian pathways, that that particular provision at a regional level can assist that those pathways are clear and running. Just on the economy, of course, our governments in the region, we've all had to respond in different ways. The sizes of our economies and our capacities, of course, dictate what we are able to do. With our government, essentially our stimulus has been around utility subsidies, business loan subsidies for our private sector, some capital injection through the development bank for particular sectors, agriculture, infrastructure, fisheries and so forth. Ensuring that the public sector employment is intact and filling vacancies so that people have a wage. And also, you know, contracting and this has to do with government spending. I think one of the things that I do need to just speak briefly too. And I think the experience will be different in the different economies within our region is the whole concept of social security. Now, with larger economies, you have more capacity to offer formal social security provisions, wage subsidies and so forth for smaller economies like our own. And in other challenging times, you know, we do fall back on our customary safety nets. And you will find now with job loss that people are returning to the land and we're fortunate in that we are able to do that. Our size enables us to do that more easily. But nevertheless, I think we have a shared experience of our populations in the urban areas, you know, where there is complete dependence on wage for livelihoods. So there has been some efforts from the government for wage subsidies and so forth. But I think we need a little bit more bigger to look after that particular sector. So I think I might just stop there. I note we have a three-minute allocation, but that's just a brief response to that question, James. Thank you so much, Deputy Prime Minister. Attorney General, how's the situation in Fiji? What's the impact been there? Well, thank you for that. And also, hello to all the other panelists. You know, we had 18 cases, positive case of COVID-19. They were all essentially brought in from overseas. We had a couple of people come from Australia, New Zealand and also from India. And then, of course, then they transmitted that. We managed to bring it all under control and we now no longer have anybody in the positive case of COVID-19. So, you know, the knowledge we need is COVID-free. But so far, we'd like to give people questions and say we don't have any positive cases in Fiji. As seen by the New Zealand experience just a couple of days ago, while they educated themselves COVID-free, there are now two cases, apparently, who have not been telling the public or the quality, which essentially demonstrates how fluid the situation is and how it still needs to be physically cautious about it. We, of course, you know, we carry out large-scale fever testing throughout the country and also, I think, that's what helped to stop any local transmission. And we also took very stringent controls in respect to border controls, you know, in terms of stopping flights, in terms of lockdowns in specific areas and a lot of those lockdowns were in the first place. The sewer was in a lockdown. And then, parts of the labour room was in a lockdown. That obviously has an economic impact, domestically speaking, of course, because, you know, the gyms are no longer open, the pubs aren't open, the cinemas aren't open. That has an impact, of course, on government revenue. The border's closing, of course, means that a much bigger, you know, nearly 40% of our GDP directly is dependent on tourism. So an enormous, you know, impact on our revenue system. In anticipation of it, when we first set the first case, we realized what were the implications in these ramifications of it. So we put in place the supplementary parts that we had to reconfigure our budget and we had what we call a COVID-19 budget response, which meant we reduced our expenditure but also became a lot more realistic in respect of the revenue streams. So, I mean, going forward, of course, our financial year begins on the 1st of August, so we prepare for another financial year. And, you know, the shutting down of the borders and hopefully now the opening of borders which leads us onto the second question can, you know, offer some ray of hope regarding that it has enormous impact. We expect our economy to contract by at least 21%. Initially, we thought it would be about 4% because, you know, the tourism sector is simply not open and because of the fact that many in-signal sectors depend upon the tourism sector. But it's not just tourism per se, I mean, we obviously have a fairly healthy government industry. So when New Zealand and Auckland and Sydney are locked down, there's obviously less demand for the dynamics. We predominantly supply to Australia and New Zealand. So there's less retail sales, less demand. So, you know, they're working to be sent home. I know it's probably only one or two days a week and reduced hours. So that's the impact of it. I mean, I think in respect of the positioning of Fiji, it needs to be the testing. We have them with Australia in respect of, you know, testing of COVID-19, Fiji's number of COVID-19 tests per confirmed case is about 214.7, just a few percentage points less than Australia and New Zealand. And also, of course, in respect of the Fiji's average daily COVID-19 testing positivity rate, one of the most reliable measures of whether government is testing enough is the game, about half a percent right up there with Australia and New Zealand. So I think in that space, we're doing well. Of course, as the Deputy Prime Minister of Samoa did highlight, you know, it made us focus a lot more on our health system in terms of anticipation. Should there be an outbreak? What are the emergencies we have in place with the reconfiguration of our budget? Of course, they had to allocate a lot more money to the Ministry of Health, you know, basically procuring equipment, et cetera, and the registration of an outbreak. I think going forward now, of course, we are more, you know, attuned to opening up the borders. We hope that the Prime Minister in the next few days will make some announcements in respect of the lockdowns domestically and perhaps some movement, you know, internationally. What are some of the protocols we want to put in place so we can start opening up borders? You know, it's interesting because during all of this, we also had a cyclone, you know, a cyclone harrow. So a majority of the bulk of these sort of winds actually went through the maritime areas down the southern and eastern parts of Fiji, Kandago and Laos. And so to be able to, you know, bring emergency supplies, take emergency supplies and all the other sort of relief efforts, we had to in the meantime, ensure that none of the COVID-19, you know, possible cases would actually transmit to the maritime areas. And thankfully, by the grace of God, none of that happened. But of course, it means a greater sort of, you know, awareness in respect of your logistics and also in terms of costs, obviously the increase of your costs is a lot more freely in the large scale. So I think, you know, in a nutshell, that's where we actually, we've approximately 25% of the world force have been affected by the pandemic. So we have a superannuation fund that relax all the, you know, schemes. Government is then topping up in respect of that. And we have to ensure that there is sustainability in all of this. Thanks very much. If I could just follow up, just on this question of international borders with both of you, obviously a lot of talk about the trans-Tasman travel bubble, but also the possibility of including Pacific Island countries into a broader travel bubble. How important, how much of a priority is that for your governments? And what's your sense of how close we might be to achieving that? James, I mean, for some more, our key entry points, New Zealand, Australia, CG and American Samoa. So of course, we're very much keeping an eye on what's happening in those four points of entry. We've opened up with American Samoa because they're COVID free. We do, of course, appreciate and Minister Tayed Kayum has talked about, especially with tourism. And I mean, many of us are in that same position. And of course, when you talk about tourism, you're necessarily talking about travel and opening up. I think our approach would be a cautious one, although we do recognize that in opening up, we start with our neighborhood, so to speak. And I think that there are good signs of countries coming out of the COVID infection. So we've started, we're bringing back Samoans from New Zealand. We've had three flights so far. We're negotiating with passage through New Zealand from Australia or Possibility Direct and so forth. And of course, Fiji being a hub for Pacific activities and especially regional agencies and so forth. I mean, it's very critical that that link also opens up. But in brief, we're a bit more cautious. How about Fiji? Yeah, I mean, I think we're working on some papers at the moment. And as I said, we all will be able to make some announcements very soon regarding that. But I think it's a matter of general principle. You would assume that when you have countries that have got, for example, testing facilities domestically and there is a lot of transparency with respect to the numbers, the statistics. And there is third party validation. And if countries are then declared to be COVID free, I think then travel becomes a lot more easier and I think it can be facilitated a lot more easier. So, for example, in New Zealand is that contributes about 17 or 18% towards our tourism or libraries. If they are COVID free and Fiji's COVID free, then you would think that certain protocols in place, you could allow some travel, as opposed to perhaps, at this point in time, that Australia and New Zealand are talking about a trans-Tasman bubble. There are various, of course, nuances within Australia itself with different states, different approaches. And perhaps that may be delaying the trans-Tasman bubble. I'm not sure about that. I just read an article, I think this morning or last night about the Australian Prime Minister making some announcements. No, no, sorry, I want to be a Minister of Kingdom, I think, saying that it may be somewhat delaying. So, the different kind of, you know, noises in respect of that. But we obviously are very keen with various protocols being developed. As the Honourable Dean of Samoa did talk about, you know, within the Pacific itself, there could be a mechanism through which we have various protocols developed within the Pacific Island countries. We could, you know, be of some sort of an inter-Pacific hub between the Pacific Island countries because there's a lot of trade that takes place between the Pacific Island countries. There's also the movement of people and, of course, different agencies are based in the different Pacific Island countries. For example, the foreign fisheries agency in place of Samoa. If the people from Samoa would travel to BG and other Pacific Island countries, so there'd be various protocols developed and perhaps that can be facilitated. But I think the word, of course, you know, they do say that the most predictable thing about COVID-19 is its unpredictability. And I think, you know, that's why everybody's been very cautious about it. And somebody needs to take the first, I suppose, not believe, but perhaps first step to be able to, you know, open up these corridors. And that we quite keen to explore those. Wonderful. Thank you for that. I note that Minister Hawke has joined us. So I wonder, Minister, if you could perhaps speak to the kind of commitments that Australia's made to the region recently in relation to COVID-19, given its special status to our family, as our family. But also, we've just heard from the Pacific leaders the importance of thinking around the mooted trans-Tasman travel bubble. So if you perhaps could touch on that as well, that would be helpful. These are very important topics. I think we all understand the difficulty of the pandemic and what's happened. I just want to commend everybody in the region for the very strong and swift action we've taken. I mean, the Pacific has really set a standard for the world in the sense that, you know, we've got it under control. We've got it managed, whether it's New Zealand, Fiji, Australia, Samoa, we're doing a great job together. And our efforts have very much been directed at working together with the region to make sure we get as prepared as we can be for whenever the health impacts do reach us. And we will have them reach us sometime when we need to be as prepared as we can be. So our efforts have been focused on that. I'll just briefly touch on some of the things we've been doing in partnership with the countries in the region. And then I'm very happy to go to travel bubbles all of the important topics. Our prime minister's made it clear from the very beginning, treating this as a pandemic in advance of the World Health Organization's recommendation that we wanted to take it very seriously because it was not just going to be a health crisis, but a twin crisis and the second crisis is the economic crisis. And I think now we have the health crisis under management and on this watch, and of course, the economic crisis is the one that we'll have to be dealing with. And regionally, you know, that's just as severe as anywhere else. And we're very focused on that. So you've seen the Australian government reprioritizing our budgets in partnership with countries where wherever we've had money that now can't be spent because we're unable to travel, programs are unable to go ahead. We've been very quick to say how much is that money we want to spend in a way that will make a difference to the health system of ordinary people in the Pacific and also support governments in, you know, the great challenges are getting ready. And we've seen very advanced countries in the world be completely unprepared and struggle to catch up and be ready. So every country in the whole world has a very significant challenge. So that money, I think, has been well spent and reprioritized to support health systems. And we'll continue to do that. And obviously, as we get the right drugs, the right vaccines, the right health equipment, we'll be working with countries to make sure as much of that can reach all the systems in the Pacific as quickly as possible. So then partnerships for recovery is the flagship program that Maris Payne, our foreign minister and myself, announced as well in partnerships for recovery is about tackling what is going to happen next for everyone in our region. And we're working closely with countries right now on the details of our country plans. And we're working on our regional plans to take account of what has happened and how we can best spend money in a way that enhances recovery, that puts a floor under the difficult economic conditions that are now a semi-permanent state for the region and the world. And that means less travel, it means less availability of capital and capital markets. And that's why I think Australia's also put a premium on Indian international forums. Our prime minister has spoken out very strongly in favor of receiving more assistance from international financial institutions, getting it quicker, and being considered in all the policy considerations of multilateral banks, United Nations for vehicles, and I myself have been participating in a group of international development minister calls regularly of countries all around the world, drawing attention to the Pacific region and saying we need to really focus our efforts on helping all parts of the world. So there's a lot of work to do there. And I know countries in the region have been using their voice as well. And I think regionally we'll continue to use our voice through the Pacific Islands Forum and other counterparts to make sure we're getting attention on what is gonna be quite a serious economic situation coming up. So I look forward to all the ways we can work together through this. We're very conscious of the fact that as a Pacific family, we're disconnected now and some of the very strong measures we've all taken have actually worked to separate us, separate us physically, but also to separate us economically and we respect the calls that we're hearing from people to start the work, the policy work on how do we reconnect in a way that is safe, that can enable economic development to continue. In Australia, we're working on some of the flagship programs that we've got. So the Pacific Labor Scheme and Seasonal Workers Program we've changed the conditions so that people who are here can stay for another year if they wanna keep working. We've changed the conditions so that people here can be moved to different jobs if we have tourism problems the same as every country in the region that can be moved to other sectors. And we're looking at a way to make sure we can keep bringing people here throughout this crisis now. We're working on that right now so that the Pacific Labor Scheme and the Seasonal Workers Program can continue and the opportunities are there. They're gonna, we need more numbers. We won't have the same amount of backpackers and food students and people coming from anywhere else in the world. So we do see a big opportunity for the Pacific to come in greater numbers to Australia and work and remit money and obviously get skills and go back home as well. So we're working on that part. And then very importantly, going to your point, Siobhan, about the Trans-Tasman bubble, that work is well advanced. We're in constant dialogue with New Zealand on a daily basis at the moment. That is progressing well. Every country has their challenges with COVID at the moment and disruptions. The Prime Minister said we're gonna get this bubble up, please. And so I think I got a partner countries have. And some countries out there, I understand don't want to reconnect with Australia at this time. And we're very cognisant of the fact that we have, we're gonna have a low level of COVID cases for some time to come. We haven't pursued elimination and we're not gonna be able to achieve elimination. So we have to think hard about the conditions and get the policy right. But it's relatively fast in governmental approach. And I know my colleagues here will understand what I'm saying in terms of governmental approach. We should be able to have the Trans-Tasman bubble of running in the very near future and then start to add on those countries that really would like to. VG has obviously been very vocal and very committed to this. We're ready to do so. I'm obviously at pace as well. Any more questions? I think if you want to discuss I was a little bit late. I apologize about that. But so over to you, Siobhan. The next question I want to move on to is thinking around climate change impacts in the region. So we know recently discussing the impacts of COVID-19 and tropical cyclone Harold. Dame Meg Chaylor, the secretary general of the Pacific Island Forum has said, and I quote, COVID has shown us our vulnerabilities but climate change remains the single greatest threat. And this sentiment echoes previous statements by the Pacific Island Forum leaders that climate change remains the single, the greatest security threat in the region. So the question then is how do Australia and the Pacific create a shared future with attention to the growing climate change impacts on Pacific countries? And I wonder if I could open up to you, Attorney General, knowing that you also have carriage as the of the climate change portfolio in Fiji. A lot of people have, you know, there's been a bit of discourse regarding climate change vis-à-vis COVID-19. And there's also a huge, bigger focus on COVID-19, generally speaking, and we've got articles coming out every two hours on the internet and some experts writing on COVID-19. And it may appear that climate change has taken effect, but it cannot and should not. This was obviously highlighted to us with Harold in the midst of the COVID-19 cases that we did have. You know, just to highlight it, since 1993, sea levels in Fiji actually have risen by about six millimeters per year, which is about double the global average. Just in the past few days, our PM has gone to about three different villages where they've put up new seawalls and these things all cost money. But obviously it's highly symbolic of the fact that climate change is very much here. This is supposed to be our dry season. It's been raining every day in Suvo for the past umpteen weeks. Reality of the matter is that the climate change is a reality. And we cannot actually lift our foot off the pedal. And the fact of the matter is that in response to COVID-19, there may be an urge by a lot of people for economic growth to perhaps drop the dial on climate change. That is our concern. We cannot do that. We need to continue to focus on the next COP. As you know, that's been deferred in Glasgow still, but to next year. Fiji, for example, and is very much a great advocate with respect of the UNIFCCC process. But of course at the same time, apart from that UNIFCCC process, the Paris Agreement process, you know, daily basis, the fact of the matter is that it's a reality. The fact of the matter is that you need to build resilience in our infrastructure. It does cost money. Of course, now with COVID-19, with the revenues are drying up. We, in fact, left in the economy, but we cannot actually let the guard down on climate change. We cannot compromise, for example, environmental standards that we've had people say to us, why don't you drop the guard on environmental standards? And because you know, we have a pandemic on. Last week, Fiji signed up with the UK Initiative of 30x30, which is getting 30% of your EZ area into the ocean area into reserve marine protected areas. Now, we're very much keen on that because the reality of the matter is that, you know, the sea of the ocean, the mangroves have much greater carbon sequestration rate. We need to be able to protect the marine environment. There's a enormous impact in respect of the livelihoods of people who live off the sea. So we need to engage in the protection of ocean areas, protection of reefs. So tourists come to Fiji because they love smoking. They like the, you know, pristine environment. Now, you cannot kill the goose that lays it all the day. Because if you don't have the environment, you don't protect, you know, or stop the acidification. And obviously, there's a much greater impact on the overall economic productivity and output of the country. So in short, I mean, I realize we don't have that much time. I think the reality is that we need to be able to collaborate across the board. We cannot, like I said, look at the foot of the paddle regarding climate change. We need to see the Pacific Ocean with it. Fiji is looking at various options. There's no way that we issue the first green bond from the emerging country. We're now looking at a blue bond, perhaps, laid on downstream because not a good time to go out into the market, I suppose, at this point in time. But it most definitely do all the groundwork for that. And, you know, I have to also acknowledge the fact that we have been working with our development partners. Australia included in some of the areas regarding the oceans. And we hope to further those engagements. We had just last but not least, we're in the process of the second round of public consultation on climate change bill. And we are fine-tuning that which will also lead to a lot better ways of, you know, central carbon trading and between the, you know, great source of revenue, but also in terms of the overall impact of reducing carbon thrust growth. I wonder, Deputy Prime Minister, would you like to add anything from a Samoan perspective? You know, in asking the question about Australia and the Pacific, the shared future, you know, you are talking about that collective. So perhaps I can take more a regional approach or a regional angle to the discussion. So this is not new. We're all members of the Pacific Forum. And, you know, we have platforms and vehicles by which we carry our message. I don't think anyone will disagree that within the context of COVID-19, that somehow the climate change issue will take a back seat. In fact, it should give us more impetus to put it more to the future. Oh, for now and the future, because, you know, we're talking about pandemics, but the impact and effect of climate change impacts us in all aspects of our lives, including health as well. So I think, you know, we, you know, people talk about COVID, you know, it's a new norm. It might be a reframing, but I think the picture is still the same in terms of our lives and how we want to continue with that. So just coming back on the theme of our regional approaches, of course, the forum has the Blue Pacific Continent 2050. And more pertinently to climate change, we have the Kainaki 2 declaration. And I think the point I want to make there is that the Pacific has advocated very strongly that climate change become part and parcel of the whole security discussion. So I think we've been at the forefront of that and we should keep it up. But primarily, I think, moving forward, we should not lose momentum in terms of the Pacific advocacy in the area of climate change. And I think it's very important for Australia as a member of the Pacific Forum that it comes in strongly. And as one of our larger members with the Pacific and the message, you know, to ensure the 1.5 objective that we've been advocating for, that we raise the global ambition with regards to emissions. You know, COVID now talking about being disconnected, we're not able to have the COP and we were very much anticipating that this next COP we could conclude on the rulebook for the Paris Agreement. And I think all of us have been anticipating this. And although it might be delayed, I don't think the momentum, and I know that through the UNFCCC processes that there are still ongoing negotiations to forward that work, I think also, you know, through the climate change processes that gives us opportunities also to find new partners, not only to address climate change, but also, you know, the economic benefits that could fall through from those arrangements. I just want to speak briefly about the Pacific Resilience Facility. You know, financing is one issue, and I'm sure my colleague from Fiji is a lot more knowledgeable about the financing on climate change. But why I wanted to make mention of the Pacific Resilience Facility is that, you know, it brings that financing component into a more usable way of not only accessing, but also working through the financing that are made available. You know, it's targeted, it's contextualized for the Pacific context. It speaks to the small scale because quite often with financing arrangements, you know, small countries get the word, well, you know, your projects are not big enough. So, you know, I think we should persist with the development of the Pacific Resilience Facility concept, especially also for simplifying the processes. I mean, a lot of us, you know, there are capacities in our respective agencies and governments to be able to work through those. So I think having that concerted attention on developing this particular financing facility will serve us very well. I think just on climate change and where the priorities are for the Pacific, most of us are still on renewable energies. And I think in that, we have opportunities also to develop new industries for ourselves. So moving from the electricity sector and to transport both land and maritime, but I think we might also be looking in that link between energy and waste. I think those are opportunities available to us in the Pacific. Now, you know, we're talking about the Pacific with the stewards of the largest ocean in the world. You know, there are other groupings. You know, we're here at the Indo-Pacific. That's still a bit of a mystery to us, but nevertheless, you know, we have these configuration and circles set over that. And I think, you know, as a Pacific, also, you know, pooling our knowledge, and this is where I think Australia, with its particular reach, the minister was referring to some consultations he's been having with other international ministers. I mean, you know, these are all windows that can be made available to our neighborhood, so to speak, or our Pacific family through the participation of some of our members in all these different forums. So just coming back in terms of the Pacific Ocean, of course, we have Asia. And then, you know, there's a whole other area with the South America, Latin American continent. Now, that's a continent that hosts, you know, you know, the forest that, you know, can save us all, although it's very much under risk. But there are opportunities there, I think, for us to make new partnerships in that direction. So the next question is one that we've received a number of questions around, which is a very important regional issue that's been creating a lot of media coverage over the last week in the region. And it's the significant governance issues that are being raised at the University of the South Pacific. Obviously, the University of the South Pacific is an extremely important regional institution. It's one that has trained a large number of Pacific leaders. So I would like to say, how can we move forward in addressing these concerns? You know, this is an institution that is highly valued throughout the region. It has served us for, you know, 50 years. Many of the graduates of USD, you know, have come to serve their countries, have, you know, been leaders in their respective countries. On the current governance issues, I'd just like to say that the council is holding a special meeting tomorrow. And I think that's where the matters should sit. Hopefully, you know, your minister mentioned the, you know, disconnection. So the council has not been able to meet physically. The meeting, there was a meeting due in May. But now I think, you know, through, you know, the technologies available to us will be holding that meeting tomorrow. And hopefully council will play its role as the governing body of the university to bring some resolution to the issues that are in the forefront. The province of university plays a very important role. It's given, you know, a source of many leaders in the Pacific. The Lodala campus here, it's always the largest campus out of all the campuses. It's true across the Netherlands, you know, campuses, you know, for example, in Samoa and not to embrace other Pacific Island countries. And, you know, obviously, good governance is very important. Transference is very important for the future. And I think that these are the issues that need to be resolved by the council. And the council is meeting tomorrow. And hopefully, you know, that's what the council will do. Regarding the future of the university, I think it's critically important that the council works our way forward. That we don't have those kind of issues that have arisen in the past a year or so. Because you need this university. Everybody needs this university. PG has two other universities. We have our national university. We have also a private university. But the USP still plays a pivotal role. I mean, it has, for example, a number of schools and faculties that don't necessarily exist in the other two universities. They don't necessarily have the experience of depth and expertise. So the University of South Africa is a very good role. And the only way for universities to survive is obviously to ensure that it's, you know, based on good governance structures. So I'll hand over to James now. Thanks, Siobhan. We have heard back from Alex Hawke's office that, again, there's another division in parliament. I guess this is an occupational hazard of holding a meeting during a sitting week of parliament. But one of the things that Alex Hawke mentioned in his earlier remarks was the Labor Mobility Schemes, the seasonal worker program and the Pacific Labor Scheme. And he seemed to suggest that there would be increased flexibility introduced into these schemes. I just wanted to ask our Pacific guests how important these schemes are in terms of your own economies and your own societies. And are there particular things that you are looking for from Australia or New Zealand for that matter in terms of increased access, increased flexibility, particularly once we move beyond the immediate COVID phase that we're in? I was quite encouraged by your minister's remarks with regards to the RSE, especially in the current conditions. I think it's very comforting the approach that Australia has taken to people who are there now. And because of the lockdown, I'm not able to return. I'm very pleased that they are able to be redistributed to perhaps other sectors and that the work is available. I think the point still needs to be underscored, that the scheme is a two-way work. It meets our needs, but it also meets the particular labor needs of Australia and New Zealand. But I think one of the things that have come out of the current situation is the protection for RSE workers in the situation like we're in now and what would be the protocols. And like anything else, unless it happens, we don't really know. So perhaps this is an important thing. Australia seems to have responded very quickly. I think New Zealand is slightly different, so we're working through those. But I think from our perspective at the moment, we should be perhaps defining exactly the status of these kinds of workers. We talk about essential workers in this period. And so the categorization and the protocols and protections I think is an area we do need to look at. Of course, the scheme has changed over time. There's flexibility. There are different optionings depending on the skill level and what is wanted. And I think that serves the interest of sending and receiving parties. It does play a very significant function for the economies of the sending countries. I know that myself from Samu. I had gone to an event last year where every year with the returning parties, the sending villages have an event to welcome them. But the reporting from that was quite incredible. And for this particular district with perhaps 30,000 population or so, they were having an injection close to 8 million Tala, our dollars, into that community. And that's enormous. And of course, the impacts will be felt if the situation changes with the situations that we are now with the COVID. But we like it. I think it's worth looking at and to see how we can improve the scheme as we move forward. I think that the ministers say that these workers that can be allowed to stay there as long as it's obviously much appreciated. That does make a lot of sense, too. We will have some workers, for example, that have specific labor schemes, who have been engaged, for example, in resort work. We had some in the cable beats resort, some in the Hamming Island. They were working there in the hotels there. But then we'll move to aged care to facilities where they will obviously continue to work and some went to meatworks, where they said so quite also. I think that ability and the level of flexibility I think is very much appreciated. And of course, going forward, Fiji is very keen to ensure that we work with the various protocols and provide employment opportunities. For our people, as the minister highlighted from some of that, they also benefit from the temporary emergencies. I think there's an opportunity also to not just focus on the agricultural sector, not just on the civil work program, but on the specific labor scheme. There were, I think, some who went to places other than the East and Seaboard of Australia and some talk about what they're going to call the territory and perhaps even Western Australia. Of course, we've got some of the results to involve the Queensland. I think there's opportunity to do that. We had unfortunately some people who were supposed to leave and had resigned from the existing work. They're going to Australia, but of course with the travel restrictions, they could not. So we had to deal with that situation. But I think our assessment is that there will be a demand in Australia for a lot of these people to come in once a year, but for example, the agricultural sector opening up and also the hospitality sector. And given the fact that there has been a downturn in the hospitality sector in Fiji, there may be more immediate opportunities for our company to look after the sector in Australia. So really important for them to talk to me. If we're coming towards the end now, and if I could just put a final question to both of you and I understand there are still divisions ongoing in the Australian Parliament. So we may not see Minister Hawke again, but all of our speakers this morning have talked about the impact of COVID on borders and around the region and indeed on the regional, the pattern of regional meetings and of course the looks like the Pacific Islands Forum, the leaders meeting this year itself will be delayed. But so I guess what I wanted to ask you was that what's your sense of what this whole COVID crisis has meant for the region? We've got a really good sense from you of what it's meant for your countries. But has it, it's been a challenge for the regional organisations and where do you think the region and regional organisations will be placed as we come out of this situation in coming years? I think, James, just take this session as an example. It's definitely a new way of work for the different agencies, but like anything else, we need to adapt. So I understand there has been mixed experience in terms of using the new technologies, but I think if this is the thing that is available to us, then it's very important that we do make the investment to ensure that these platforms can avail us the opportunity to keep those connections. Having said that, it's quite interesting. The whole COVID thing, I think it's given us all, and this has been the global experience, I think. And I think for smaller countries, it's given us some opportunity to reflect also. I mean, in economic terms, when the connections are cut, then first and foremost, you're looking internally. How do you keep that internal economy turning over? And that just depends on the different circumstances, but it may not be such a bad thing for us to be reflecting and working with what we can control, perhaps reprioritising, because I think that in any event where we're challenged, everything is there, but perhaps it's the prioritising that we need to reflect on. If I could take a leap out of what the audience at the end said. I think the regional organisations obviously will continue to exist. The platform to use for engagement obviously will change upon technological engagement. And of course, there is in itself a need there to beef up the technological capacities in different countries. Some months that we've talked about certain countries not necessarily having the right bandwidth to be able to have such confidence. So that in itself is an issue that needs to be addressed, and of course, our development partners can work. And the regional organisations will have a pivotal role in perhaps spreading the use of the technology in building the local capacities. I think also the regional organisations need to have some more, we require them to play a more nuanced approach in respect of how they deal with the different countries, because I think what the pandemic has also highlighted is the different positions or different capacities that individual countries within the region have. What, for example, one may be about technology, the other may not be. Now, this we need to assess vis-à-vis the SDGs too. When we have the SDGs go by 2030, the reality of the matter is that when the pandemic has a huge strain on the revenue ability to build capacities to meet the goal of the SDG by 2030, it is again limited. So I think the regional organisations to maintain its relevance for the individual countries to be able to obviously leverage off the regional organisations, it needs to be understanding a more nuanced approach about the individual countries situation and tailor-making for those individual countries. Of course, there are certain areas where you need to have a one-size-fits-all for all the Pacific Island countries. But I think in order for the individual regional organisations, again, it's also a lesson for the local partners, when they do use the regional organisations, they need to highlight to them and they want the programmes to be actually delivering the right outcome. They need to be able to talk or relate to them about what do they want and how the individual countries are dealing with different situations and build those capacities individually. Because the reality of the matter is, for example, using Fiji as an example, a lot of people are saying, well, you should not have to depend so much on tourism. Because of the fact that you depend so much on tourism, this is why maybe it's a huge hit with respect to government revenues and tax revenue. So, yes, it's true. We were in fact, for example, in the tourism sector, our past number of years, our goal has been to, as a mantra, to spread our risk within the tourism sector, and that is not to depend so heavily on Australia and New Zealand, in terms of the percentage of the arrival. So, of course, we want to grow the numbers. We need to look at other source markets. You know, whether it's more growing the North market, the Europeans, the Chinese, the Indian to the emerging markets. And of course, therefore, the connectivity needs to be a lot wider. So, we fly directly to Singapore, Japan, San Francisco, LA, et cetera, Hong Kong. So, that's one aspect of it. So, what can I develop in partners and regional organizations doing, for example, to build capacities in creating new employment opportunities? That, I think, is pretty important. I mean, one of the areas that we are looking at is because we've got a very young population, because we're at a very high level of penetration of technology, whether it's feasible, et cetera, and smartphones. We have over 600,000 smartphones in the population, 900,000 people, for 70% of the population below the age of 40. So, perhaps we need to look at things like coding, building capacities in our university. So, you know, our students, our youth, can actually go and learn coding and you can provide services now, remotely to San Francisco, the vendors can actually come and see the products here, the people who develop the products for them and then fly back directly. So, those are the things that you need to look at. So, what can the regional organisations do to build these capacities to go and develop the partner's language? Shavon, I'll hand back to you now to close up. Yeah, look, thank you for what's been such an insightful and thoughtful conversation today. We've covered such a wide range of issues and it's been really wonderful to hear first hand around your opinions, but also perspectives of directly from the leadership around how COVID-19 has been impacting your countries.