 We're here at Think Tech. I'm Jay Fidel. I'm joined by Mitch Ewing and Frank Rago and Doug McLeod. We're going to talk about Hawaii, the state of clean energy, more specifically the energy conference, which used to be called the Maui Energy Conference, and it's now been upgraded, updated, expanded to the Hawaii Energy Conference over the past few years. And it's really a signature event. And we're going to talk about how it's doing. Welcome to the show while you guys. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks for having us. Definitely. Great. So, you know, Mitch, why don't you take your licks on describing, you know, what about the conference and what has it been like in the past when you've been there? I've been to two of the energy conferences in Maui. And actually, I got a lot of value out of it. It's a small conference. It's not like thousands of people. But the content was really good. It was very well staged or managed. And there's a lot of really good interaction. I noticed this year's got canceled. Unfortunately, I was supposed to be on one of the only hydrogen panel or only people talking about hydrogen. It was mostly like a grid, an electrical grid show is what I would have characterized it. I was quite happy to be invited to go over there and talk about hydrogen and get my or in, as it were, and make sure people don't forget about hydrogen, which is going to be the ultimate winner in my humble opinion. And so I look forward to how we're going to go forward with this because it is a good show, a good conference and a lot of good interaction. I think one of the big things that's going to be hard to replicate is the kind of the networking we used to do like between presentations like at lunch and at some of the other events where you actually got around to go around meet people individually. I think they did a really good job at that. And I'd be interested to see and I'm sure there's thinking about that. That was one of the big values of that conference, from my point of view. Well, there's an important conference for the state. And you really have developed some real traction. The Maui Economic Development Board is really a fabulous organization, seeing it do so many really innovative and helpful things for the state. In a way, energy is focused there. So what did you expect to do, Frank? What was it going to be like if it had unfolded in the way you wanted? Well, first of all, I want to agree with Mitch. You're not going to reproduce the kind of touch, if you want to put it that way, right? Since we're doing the six foot distancing that the face-to-face conference has. But we wanted to put this as a marker that we're still here, that we're still making a difference in terms of energy policy and the discussions around that and what's occurring in Hawaii, and seeing actually the nation through the prism of what's going on here. Because that's what we always try to do. We don't only focus on local issues, we also try to see what's going on throughout the nation. So we're going to attempt, you can't, now right now we've got a three hour format, okay? This is like a two hours, but we wanted to have a marker, a place marker that says we're still here, we're working on this, and we're going to continue with our presentation on energy. But this year it's an abbreviated experience. Doug, you want to add to that? Well, I think if you said what was the original live event going to be focused on, our idea was beneficial electrification. And the only piece of that that I think we're continuing on with is when you started to think about what beneficial might have meant, you get into some of the same concepts in terms of justice and equity. But not all. And so we've really gone away and we had two full days of programming. Frankly, it was it was looking particularly strong and I actually think hydrogen is probably getting close to having a moment. But oh, wow. And this is on tape. Thank you for mentioning that. But you know, so the world has changed and we did make a really conscious decision here to offer this programming for free. And I know before the show we were talking about how we're all receiving invitations to different kinds of virtual events and webinars. And you can see some of these are really being operated as a business. And that's that's not what we're trying to do. I mean, our function really here is to provide a service to the public and particularly the interested public, you know, the folks that have been working renewable energy are interested in some of the climate issues. And now we have, you know, these incredibly important changes in society. So so for us, we're we're wrestling with everything that's happened, like, like everyone else. And we're putting together four panels. And we're going to ask them all to consider this concept of a just recovery. And let's really try to understand what that might be as applied to energy and particularly as applied to the grid. So so that's, you know, at a high level, what we're trying to do in the virtual event and how it compares with the live event. Wow, a just recovery. That's really at the intersection, isn't it? I mean, it's not just energy. It's dealing with the current state of affairs, which I think we all have to do. That's what's happening in the world, and it's changing the world and all that. So so this is a thing as Doug was saying just that interject. I'm sorry. You know, we started off with this idea of equity and electrification. But, you know, right now, the conditions we're in are just a prime example of how inequalities begin to creep up and demonstrate themselves in sort of events like this. And it's it first of all, ask the question of how resilient you are. Okay. And how do you have the ability to recover? You know, and what does that recovery look like, especially for the marginalized and those who in their daily lives, even pre COVID, were experiencing difficulty? How do you deal with something like this where, you know, all bets are off and everything has changed in a real sense. So yeah, I want to echo what Doug is saying. It's it's more than just an amplification. It's now us coming out of lived circumstances that have created an extreme sort of way or a laboratory, if you want to put it that way, of how do we get ourselves out of something like this? Can you give us an example of what you mean by just grit? I mean, obviously, it's a matter of equality and fairness and equitable and equitable approach everybody wins. But give me an example, could you? Yeah, sure. I mean, I think if you look at the concept of community solar, and I want to distinguish here the concept from the specifics of what we've proposed in Hawaii, that's probably subject of another show and frankly may may may not work out. But the idea of community solar is that, you know, people that are renters, people that are, you know, not able to afford a home, that these people can all take some advantage and get some cost savings. And so, you know, when you talk about a just recovery, there are a lot of pieces to it. But, you know, economics is certainly one thing that keeps coming up, you know, again and again here. This is, you know, the people that we were calling, you know, essential were people, you know, in certain types of jobs. And, you know, again, these are folks that that can't maybe benefit from a lot of the, let's call them sexy conference topics. Okay, like when we talk Tesla's with people, you know, we get a great interest, right? I mean, people in the biz, they love to talk Tesla's and all kinds of variations, power packs, you know, cars, everything, semis. But when we start trying to focus on what we could do toward the grid in Hawaii or, you know, frankly, any of the states that have a similar worldview, you know, that we do, you know, you find that that's a different group. So again, when we talk about a just recovery, it probably means that some of the things that have been emphasized like EV charging, things like that may have to take a temporary backseat if we're really going to try to reallocate resources. So those are the kinds of things that I'm expecting people to kind of bring up and say, Hey, in the current context, this isn't as important as it used to be. And instead, I don't why here is much more important. Yeah, there's an intersection here that you might not have anticipated. In other words, of course, we want to have clean energy. Of course, we, you know, want to have a better state. But there's more now because we're in a time of reinvention. We are reimagining our economy, the next one that we are building right now. You guys are involved in that. And so we have to, you know, bring in other considerations, like fairness in the community, like social justice, like justice of all kinds. And I really commend you on the notion of wrapping that in so that you have this is more, much more than just technology type energy. This is energy touching the community. And the community is actually not settled. The community is still being remade reinvented. So it's pretty ambitious. So what's the special source? I mean, I know it's an abbreviated program and all that. But how are you going to do this? This is not so easy. Who are you going to call in to discuss it? How are you going to shape the content of material? I don't think it's easy. You know, I tell people, if you want to be in the conference business, you know, the skillset you need is to be able to carry in your mind, you know, multiple contradictory ideas about how it's going to play out without going insane. Because, you know, you don't know how it all plays out. But I can tell you that some of them already insane. So there you go. We're going to bring together some commissioners from several different states. And I think, you know, you mentioned that we have kind of a track record. I think it's fair to say that we do have a track record for kind of issues spotting early, especially in energy policy. So I think we can say comfortably we'd expect people from the California PUC, the Hawaii PUC, you know, commissioners, probably one or two other states and asking them, you know, in your state, how is this playing out in terms of, you know, a demand for justice? So I think there are some different answers. California is having these same types of discussions, obviously. And that'll be interesting to hear. So, you know, how do we format that right? How do we make it most useful? That's something we're going to be working with over the next few weeks. We also are going to ask probably some of our friends in Colorado to, you know, we worked with for a long time. And they've got some pretty good ideas on some of these as well. So we'll bring in some of the folks from Boulder, maybe the Colorado State PUC or Governor's Office. I don't know, you know, who all we'll end up with. Those are examples of the beyond Hawaii piece. We're also obviously going to bring people from here. And, you know, I don't want to, we haven't made all the final decisions, but I think it's safe to say, you know, we probably can't have the discussion without Scott Glenn from the State Energy Office. You should probably expect we'd have someone on from KIUC. I mean, you know, there are things like this. I expect we'll see this. R-O-P-U-C-S. You know, I mean, these are the kinds of folks we do want to make an effort from here from people around the state. But those are the people we're bringing together. And as far as any special sauce, it's just a matter of just trying to stay current with what's going on and not having an agenda. You know, we aren't pro any particular thing other than, I think, knowledge. Well, one of the things that I've observed with the Maui conference is that it's a it's a rub shoulders experience. And, you know, I think we can all agree that energy in the energy community here, and as extended to other places, we talk to, you know, we know each other. We talk to each other. It's old friends, actually, in many cases. And it's personal. It's having a beer. It's, you know, standing in a lobby of a hotel and talking sea stories. So the question is, how do you achieve that if you're doing virtual? Let me put it this way. I know you have lots of thoughts about it, but how can you achieve that? What can you do to recreate this kind of personal experience, this networking, you know, mono-e-mono kind of experience? Our conclusion after wrestling with that for a number of weeks is you can't. And so what we're treating this as is a very different kind of event. Instead of a paid attendance in the hundreds, you know, we're going to open it up and who knows how many people will end up with. But what we're doing is we're saying, we want to keep you interested enough in the live discussion that you'll come next year when we have that event. But rather than say, we can replicate it, we actually looked at a bunch of different ideas and, you know, including the cocktail part. And there really isn't a way to do this in a satisfactory way. Let me throw an idea or just discuss one point. I mean, the fact that it's going to be free means you can reach down into the lower economic group and maybe hear from the people that are really affected by the cost of their energy bill every month. For example, a lot of laid off workers are people that used to have to have three jobs to survive. Now they've only got maybe one if they're lucky. And how does energy factor into their daily life? So for example, public transportation. I mean, what if we had a transportation system that was really efficient, really affordable, and was very convenient for people to take the bus so they don't waste all their time sitting at a bus stop waiting an hour for a bus that either doesn't show up or when it does show up, it's full of people. And so it's like a total hassle factor for these people. I got to go to the doctor. I got to go shopping or whatever. I can't afford to fill my gas guzzling pickup truck right now. So I need to take the bus, but our bus systems aren't that great, like especially on the big island, you know, where they only have like a few buses that are actually operational. And so I think it might be a good idea to, and these people would never go to a conference like we're talking about, but they might be able to attend via I mean over the internet or make it available to them to go to like a center so we can actually hear from them and they can actually, you know, tell us about their energy experience and then the hassles that they're going through so we can learn it. It's like when you're starting a company, the first thing you do is you go out and ask people, do you really want the service that I'm providing so that you don't think, oh, this is an answer to something. You spend a bunch of money to turn out a product that nobody wants. So just a thought. How could you fold them in in the way of getting their views on things but not letting them, you know, sort of hijack the policy discussion because if you have too many people with views that are not at the policy level, you're not achieving the same thing for the policy makers. So query is like a survey, I think, Mitch, you describe it's like a survey. We're going to find out how they feel. You want to take note of what they feel and bring it in somehow to the policy discussion. Any thoughts about that? I think you're right on, Jamie, about what the trick is and how you balance it. I think that the way it's worked best for us in the past is to have kind of a screener who can look at some of the questions and say these are representative or these make the most sense. And we're kind of looking at that. We're talking on Zoom. Zoom has a particular chat function. Different programs have variations. But it is fair to assume that we are planning to have some opportunity to ask people questions. Everything is shortened. Everything is compressed. We're not going to have 20 minutes for questions. But we will have five minutes for questions and we will make a point of trying to ask some good ones. You know, this is a good example of a lesson you learn in necessity to bring in, you know, people, ordinary consumers and have them express themselves by way of Zoom. You may not have done that before. You know, nobody was thinking about Zoom a year ago. And so maybe this is something where you sort of refine it this year. You find a way to bring it into the conversation. And it's obviously, as Mitch says, it's much more efficient and is possible for people to come in this way where they would never be able to fly over and so. And then you can use this system that you design, you know, and perfect hopefully this year for years to come. And so you're building in a kind of survey, a connection, you know, a place for people to give voice for conferences later that are not virtual. It's one virtual piece of a larger non-virtual conference. I think that's what's going to happen. That's where we are. That's the power of innovation in distress. Frank, what are you doing? Do you have a system going with Zoom? I mean, how are you going to organize the Zoom aspect of this? We're literally on Zoom, so we're not going to have the raise hand that way. But we have a similar platform and I'll let Frank finish up there. Well, I'm not quite sure about the platform. That's not my area because Doug and I are trying to palm the bushes for speakers and kind of narrowing the program as we were talking about. But yeah, we've got a very competent team led by Sandy Ryan of MEDB and Annette Lynch, who does our IT basically for the conference. And yeah, we're figuring all those things out as we go. This is an experiment and I think we should have put that in somewhere in our advertisement somewhere. This is an experiment. We know this isn't the same as the personal conference, but who knows? This might be, as you say, at a dimension that we can incorporate to future in-person conferences to allow sort of a hybrid where people can livestream, people can actually participate by asking questions from where they're at, those kinds of things. Like you said, this whole COVID-19 has pushed us into areas and learning skills and becoming adept at these kinds of things, which we would have never have thought of before. Just to give you an example, I went to a conference once where somebody asked in the audience one question, how many people learned with a royal typewriter? Now, there's only a few people who knew actually what that meant. And there's probably some people listening that still don't. And oh yeah, exactly. The red and black ribbon and this was a very mixed crowd. And it says, well, who knew what an electric typewriter was? And then there's still, you know, some people, yeah, you can raise your hands on that word processor. We went to the list and all of a sudden we figured out there was this whole bunch of like students that were like in their 20s and 21s and they were like looking around, what the hell is this stuff? Right? Okay, we're not digital natives. So we're actually learning as we go. My generation, I'm a proud boomer, but I think we're doing a pretty good job of experimenting and that's what we're doing right now. You're absolutely right about the experimental side of it. I was involved in a university gathering involving SOEST a few weeks ago and there were like 75 people involved on Zoom. And I could see that the people who were running the program had really taken the time to figure out which button to push. Because if you push the wrong button on Zoom, you know, mute or unmute or go to that, what do they call that thing, the share screen, you're going to run into a problem and 75 people are going to see you, you know, footfall on that. So it really pays to have somebody either experienced or one of you guys, you know, after familiarizing yourself with all the buttons. I mean, the worst thing that can happen is you forget to do a mute all. Okay, and now you have people in 75 places all talking to their dogs and all this is getting on the soundtrack. And furthermore, Zoom has a way of presenting that person. In other words, you make noise on your particular window, all of a sudden Zoom goes to you and shows you playing with your dog. This is not exactly, you know, ideal. So you have to know about this kind of stuff and it takes a little experience, I would say. So if you have staff for that, it's good. But otherwise, what fun to learn it yourselves, eh? Yeah, yeah. And you have to be adept with it at certain point yourself. So you know what the transitions are. What you're talking about is transitions. Transitions, even in an in-person conference are very, very important because they point people's attention from one thing to another. And on the virtual platform, I'm beginning to learn those kinds of transitions are even more important to make them as seamless as possible. But as you said, there's a lot of things that can go wrong in the process on a platform like this. Yeah, so you worry about that in quality experimental. Exactly. That covers a multitude of sins. So I heard Mitch say this is free. That's a wonderful, wonderful thing you give to the community on that. But gee, doesn't it cost you money? How are you going to organize that on a business basis? Well, I think we're beneficiaries of kindness here. I mean, we had a prior event and obviously, you know, sponsors had made some commitments. And I think, you know, we've been fortunate that some of them are going to continue, you know, supporting and what, for our sponsors, the advantage here is that by offering it free, we're really potentially opening this up to a much larger audience. And, you know, we don't know yet, are we going to try to market Australia or Japan? But I mean, those kinds of things are certainly possible. So, but again, we aren't, we aren't suggesting to you that this is a sustainable model going forward forever. But I mean, we're all dealing with this extraordinary situation. And the least we can do is try to, you know, put something out that, you know, is affordable for everyone by definition. So that's the priority this year. It probably isn't the priority every single year. And I wanted to say that we thought we had something to say this year, especially about energy within the land of COVID. So, yeah, I just wanted to add that. Yeah, well, let's take a moment and talk about it. You know, here we have renewable energy. That's what this show is about. That's what Mitch and I are covering in general. And, you know, the question is whether COVID and the trials and tribulations of the country are somehow affecting, they must be, I'm not sure I know how, they must be affecting the development of renewable energy in our country. And I expect, you know, you will, or some of your, you know, your, your guests will talk about that. But can we talk about it for a minute? How, how is renewable energy doing in the time of COVID? I think you're going to get some different answers from different people, but, you know, in the early stages of relief, you know, in terms of the CARES Act, renewable energy didn't do particularly well, you know, none of the tax credits got extended. So, you know, that would be one of the hopes on these larger projects was that if the credits got extended, then a delay due to COVID didn't really matter. But right now, what people are aware of is on the federal level, we've got this tax credit that's ratcheting down a little bit every year. So, the delays in time are making a difference. And you're seeing some projects to simply start to look not feasible or move away. And then the other piece is financing. So, you know, interest rates have certainly dropped. But at the same time, there's probably a concern on how credit worthy people are. And it's not, it's not, it's not as easy, you know, necessarily to borrow money. So, I mean, in terms of the national market, you know, that's probably what you're seeing. The pricing continues to come in at new lows for battery plus PV. I mean, that, that is the model, you know, internationally, it's a different discussion of offshore wind and some interesting things there. But, you know, in the US and particularly the Western US, again, the pricing continues to come in at new lows. And basically, I don't think there is any Western state right now proposing a new natural gas power plant. There's still some in the South. But I, you know, I think that is certainly a turning point that anyone proposing a new plant of any, you know, has an uphill struggle now to justify a non-renewable source. And it's hard to plan an economy which is, you know, so, so unpredictable. Sorry, Mitch, go ahead. Yeah, I'd like to put my two cents worth in on this, is that one of the things that keeps ticking along is overhead. So for example, I have a project on the Big Island where I'm installing equipment and commissioning equipment. All that is stopped because, A, my consultants from the mainland can't travel over here to help commission the equipment. I can't travel to the Big Island to check on my equipment. So everything's kind of stopped. But meanwhile, that overhead clock keeps ticking away and eating up my budget. But I'm not getting a lot of value out of that budget. I think that's probably the same for everybody. So, you know, big PV installers and people are installing equipment are probably, they're going to get, it's going to be slower for them to get to market to get their equipment up and going so they can actually, you know, earn revenue. So I think there's going to be, everything is damped down right now. And I think you're right. The raises, it raises a very interesting point possibly for discussion at the conference. And that is, if you're a developer and you have had a project and now you're stuck because of COVID and all the things that have happened, you know, what advice can we give you about how to make that work and not lose it, not have the, you know, the ongoing expenses and fixed expenses eat you up and have your capital disappear? What can you do in this strange time? That might be a very interesting and valuable discussion, I think. Oh, most definitely. And I know the solar energy guys would say the answer is to shorten the permit and interconnection times that the only way to do this is to capture some time at the end because Mitch is right. You know, there's been a lot of delays, but especially on a walk, you know, the permitting now for rooftop solar. I mean, you know, that is a meaningful amount of time. And you know, if that could ever be shortened, you know, that'd be interesting. Here on Maui, there's been an effort to shorten the permitting for COVID related building permit fixes to spaces. So in other words, you want to bring your people back. There's a new program. Basically, they're supposed to give you comments within two weeks or it's approved. So when people talk at the Hawaii level, I think what I hear that sounds most realistic would be in terms of trying to create a shorter time period. And, you know, with with Helco Hico, Hawaiian Electric generally, you know, the interconnection process has gotten much, much better at the residential level, but it still gets pretty complicated, you know, with any larger projects. And this was a time for us to take a look at those things, isn't it, to reinvent the way those things work. It was a problem before. Yeah, right. Well, but now we see it more clearly, don't we? You know, you know, Frank, I think one of the remarkable things about the Energy Conference in Maui is it's part of MEDB. And MEDB has been such a successful organization over the years. But I wonder, we talk about the difficulties of developing renewable energy in Maui. What about the economic difficulties in general in Maui? How is Maui doing? I mean, we don't, you know, we in Oahu, including Mitch, well, we don't, we don't, we don't think that much about Maui. We're focused on Oahu, you know, besides that old Ireland thing. Tell me about it. So how are you doing over there? You know, and how does that, how does that connect up with the energy in the conference? Is the economy okay? What's, what's the prospect? I think the one word is devastated. We've been devastated. I'm president also of the Maui native Hawaiian Chamber of Commerce. And Oahu just finished doing a survey pre COVID. I mean, pre PPP when that was happening about what was occurring with native Hawaiian businesses. And as we began looking at the figures and the data, Hawaii Maui's economic structure is pointed toward a certain kind of tourist economy, which tends to be more the high end. So when we get hit, we get hit hard here because I think I've seen the claims. I think we have about 70,000 between 65 and 70,000 employable people on the island. And I think about 35,000 have, you know, presented claims. They said that, you know, it's about a 38% unemployment rate here in the state. I'm almost certain it's way above that on Maui because of tourists related directly and indirect businesses indirectly related to tourism. So I think the word here is just devastated right now and rebuilding is going to be very, very difficult. But an opportunity again to kind of relook at that and see how do we start balancing and diversifying our economy? Every time we have a downturn, we have the same discussion, right? We need to diversify. We need to diversify. I think people need to get serious about things like fiber, right? Our broadband capability. Just look at all the people who tried to apply for unemployment claims with the 1970s mainframe. They actually used the word mainframe, right? When they described what their facilities are, okay? But people were having problems just with broadband speeds to upload all these documents that they were supposed to download for these forms. All they need to do is get out there old Smith Corona. But I think infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure, we need to really look at our digital infrastructure. We're already living in the 21st century. We said in the 20th we were going to prepare for it. We're still living in the 20th in a lot of ways. Yeah. Well, you know what's interesting because we, I don't know about you guys, but I spend most of my time at home and there's a benefit in spending time with family and all that. But the reality is unless you watch out, you get disconnected and you have to keep on reading and talking and thinking and having shows like this in order to feel that you're, but you know what's going on. And it's kind of really interesting to hear you talk about Maui. I wasn't aware and I think we all have to be aware about how other parts of the state are doing their challenges and how they're going to come back. It's really disturbing actually. So Mitch, we're at that point in the time when you get to do your thing and to make sense of all of this and to assimilate everything that has been discussed and find the, you know, the ultimate living truth in it. Okay. Well, I'm always happy to play cleanup crew, mopping up as it were, shooting any survivors. But yeah, we had a really interesting discussion of it. I think the big challenge is like how do we reinvent ourselves on things like energy conferences and how do we become more effective in the way we go about A, getting the information out and then reinventing ourselves like we just talked about about the tourism industry. We talk, talk, talk about diversifying. Frank was saying we never actually do it. So now's the time to be doing rather than talking and not doing too soon because you don't want to make a mistake, but start thinking about seriously like we do in think tech Hawaii where we have seriously thoughtful shows on how we change the paradigm for Hawaii. Maui is a great example of where, you know, you know, they're so dependent on high-end tourism that they want to get the legs blown out from under them that are in extremists. So these are great thoughts and great areas where we should talk together and then come up with plans, with actions, and actually do them. So as I had in the slide today, I had a show this morning. I have this slide, you know, everybody's in the canoe paddling together. It's paddle faster. Well, great discussion, very, very important discussion. And one term will stick in my head like forever, just recovery. Thank you very much, Frank and Doug. Thank you, Mitch. Great to have these conversations. Be well, stay safe. Aloha. Aloha.